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gallagher
2010-06-04, 01:48 PM
Hey all!

i am in a spot here, and need some help. there is a character that i am intending on being effectively best buddies with. he is a half-minotaur water orc barbarian with strongarm bracers and weapons galore. you know, basically the "i destroy everything with my fists, and sometimes a hammer" guy.

i am playing the much smaller spellthief who sits on his shoulder. if you ever saw Small Soldiers, it is like he is punchit and i am scratchit. except that we are evil, but that is besides the point.

my job is to sit upon his shoulder and take spells, buffs, and whatnot so that everyone has to play on his level, which is to say, brutal hitting with swords and stuff. i need to know, what kind of character, besides a tibbit, could i play that is small enough to sit on his shoulder for journeying? also, i am probably using a light crossbow, and therefor need to know what feats i need to take so that i can reliably do sneak attacks so i can steal spells. i also assume i should have a wand or two of a touch spell, so i can do sneak attack that way.

basically, i need help building a smaller than Small sized 14th level spellthief. any help would be very much appreciated.

thanks!

Fax Celestis
2010-06-04, 01:53 PM
Obligatory link.

Tibbit is your easiest bet for a Tiny character, though you could also try a variety of awakened animals. Rats, mice, possums, weasels, and squirrels are best (opposable thumbs and generally humanoid body structure).

There are a variety of hilarious things you can do with exceptionally tiny creatures: take a look at Giantbane, Confound the Big Folk, Underfoot Combat, Titan Fighting, et al. Most of those feats are in Races of Stone.

If you are set on spellthief, I would recommend being a UMD/archer-style rather than a stabby style: UMD means that you'll pump your Dex and your Cha and can ignore your (horrendous due to your size) Str entirely. Wand Mastery, Ranged Recall, and TWF/Double Wand Wielder come highly recommended, as does the Cannith Wand Adept PrC.

Machiavellian
2010-06-04, 02:16 PM
Obligatory link.

Tibbit is your easiest bet for a Tiny character, though you could also try a variety of awakened animals. Rats, mice, possums, weasels, and squirrels are best (opposable thumbs and generally humanoid body structure).

There are a variety of hilarious things you can do with exceptionally tiny creatures: take a look at Giantbane, Confound the Big Folk, Underfoot Combat, Titan Fighting, et al. Most of those feats are in Races of Stone.

If you are set on spellthief, I would recommend being a UMD/archer-style rather than a stabby style: UMD means that you'll pump your Dex and your Cha and can ignore your (horrendous due to your size) Str entirely. Wand Mastery, Ranged Recall, and TWF/Double Wand Wielder come highly recommended, as does the Cannith Wand Adept PrC.

and Nobody mentions the infamous Awakened Wasp.

and focus on Cha (my suggestion, since what casting a Spellthief gets is CHA-based, be a Sorc or Warmage)

Escheton
2010-06-04, 03:53 PM
You sure you want to sit on his shoulder?
An anthopomorphic hummingbird or bat or something with the spellfirewielder feat could rock.

Prolly stuck on the small soldiers/mad max thing though.

The Glyphstone
2010-06-04, 04:01 PM
There is one little problem - reach. You want to fight on his shoulder, but he's going to be Large, and you're going to be Tiny. That's natural reaches of 10ft. and 0ft. respectively. With a 0ft. reach, you can't steal spells from an enemy without entering their square, which likely means an AoO and definitely means leaving his shoulder.

Fax Celestis
2010-06-04, 04:03 PM
There is one little problem - reach. You want to fight on his shoulder, but he's going to be Large, and you're going to be Tiny. That's natural reaches of 10ft. and 0ft. respectively. With a 0ft. reach, you can't steal spells from an enemy without entering their square, which likely means an AoO and definitely means leaving his shoulder.

LIES. This is why I recommended ray spells. As long as it makes an attack roll, you can sneak attack with it.

Escheton
2010-06-04, 04:04 PM
pretty sure spellstealing must be melee.
High speed and tumble does the trick though.
Spring attack makes it awesome.

edit: I too stand corrected.

The Glyphstone
2010-06-04, 04:06 PM
LIES. This is why I recommended ray spells. As long as it makes an attack roll, you can sneak attack with it.

Good sir, I stand corrected. I thought Steal Spell could only be used as a melee touch attack, not that it replaced SA dice...possibly I was confused by the fact that you can 'steal' from willing targets as a touch attack.

Fax Celestis
2010-06-04, 04:07 PM
pretty sure spellstealing must be melee.
High speed and tumble does the trick though.
Spring attack makes it awesome.


Steal Spell (Su): A spellthief can siphon spell energy away from his target and use it himself. A spellthief who hits an opponent with a successful sneak attack can choose to forgo dealing 1d6 points of sneak attack damage and instead steal a spell, or the potential to cast a specific known spell, from his target. If the target is willing, a spellthief can steal a spell with a touch as a standard action.

The target of a steal spell attack loses one 0-level or 1st-level spell from memory if she prepares spells ahead of time, or one 0-level or 1st-level spell slot if she is a spontaneous caster. A spontaneous caster also loses the ability to cast the stolen spell for 1 minute. If the target has no spells prepared (or has no remaining spell slots, if she is a spontaneous caster), this ability has no effect. A spellthief can choose which spell to steal; otherwise, the DM determines the stolen spell randomly. If a spellthief tries to steal a spell that isn't available, the stolen spell (or spell slot) is determined randomly from among those the target has available.

For example, a 1st-level spellthief who uses this ability against a 1st-level sorcerer could choose to steal magic missile. Assuming the sorcerer knew that spell, a successful steal spell attack would eliminate one 1st-level spell slot and temporarily prevent her from casting magic missile. If the same spellthief stole magic missile from a wizard who had it prepared, the wizard would lose one prepared magic missile spell (but wouldn't lose any other magic missile spells she might also have prepared).

After stealing a spell, a spellthief can cast the spell himself on a subsequent turn. Treat the spell as if it were cast by the original owner of the spell for the purpose of determining caster level, save DC, and so forth. A spellthief can cast this spell even if he doesn't have the minimum ability score normally required to cast a spell of that level. The spellthief must supply the same components (including verbal, somatic, material, XP, and any focus) required for the stolen spell. Alternatively, a spellthief of 4th level or higher can use the stolen spell power to cast any spellthief spell that he knows of the same level or lower (effectively, this gives the spellthief one free casting of a known spell). A spellthief must cast a stolen spell (or use its energy to cast one of his own spells) within 1 hour of stealing it; otherwise, the extra spell energy fades harmlessly away.

As a spellthief gains levels, he can choose to steal higher-level spells. At 4th level, he can steal spells of up to 2nd level, and for every two levels gained after 4th, the maximum spell level stolen increases by one (up to a maximum of 9th-level spells at 18th level).

At any one time, a spellthief can possess a maximum number of stolen spell levels equal to his class level (treat 0-level spells as 1/2 level for this purpose). For instance, a 4th-level spellthief can have two stolen 2nd-level spells, or one 2nd-level spell and two 1st-level spells, or any other combination of 0-level, 1st-level, and 2nd-level spells totaling four levels. If he steals a spell that would cause him to exceed this limit, he must choose to lose stolen spells sufficient to reduce his total number of stolen spell levels to no more than his maximum.

A spellthief can't apply metamagic feats or other effects to the stolen spell unless the specific spell stolen was prepared with such an effect. For example, a spellthief of 6th level or higher could steal a wizard's empowered magic missile, but only if he specifically chose to steal empowered magic missile. If he chose to steal an unmodified magic missile, he couldn't steal an empowered magic missile, a silent magic missile, or any other metamagic form of the spell. A spellthief couldn't steal an empowered magic missile from a sorcerer, since the sorcerer applies metamagic effects upon casting and thus has no prepared empowered magic missile spell.

This ability works only against spells. It has no effect on psionic powers or spell-like abilities (but see the steal spell-like ability class feature, below).

From here. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050107a)


If a rogue can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra damage.

The rogue’s attack deals extra damage any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and it increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter. Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied.

Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet.

With a sap (blackjack) or an unarmed strike, a rogue can make a sneak attack that deals nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage. She cannot use a weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage in a sneak attack, not even with the usual -4 penalty.

A rogue can sneak attack only living creatures with discernible anatomies—undead, constructs, oozes, plants, and incorporeal creatures lack vital areas to attack. Any creature that is immune to critical hits is not vulnerable to sneak attacks. The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment or striking the limbs of a creature whose vitals are beyond reach.

Teal Deer: Ray spells can sneak attack (and therefore trigger Steal Spell) as long as the target is within 30'.

Person_Man
2010-06-04, 04:45 PM
LIES. This is why I recommended ray spells. As long as it makes an attack roll, you can sneak attack with it.

I think had something close to this debate a few days ago with someone else regarding Arcane Tricksters. While you can use Sneak Attack with a ray spell (giving you a high probability To-Hit) it's more optimal to use melee attacks or normal ranged weapons, because they let you make a full attack. You can get touch attacks from Weapon-like spells (Flame Blade, Flame Dagger, Thunder Lance, Sand Scimitar, Spectral Weapon, Cloud of Daggers, Whirling Blade) and/or razor nets if you're having a hard time hitting.

Though there's really no reason you can't memorize and/or buy wands for both tactics, and use them both as your needs dictate.

PId6
2010-06-04, 04:53 PM
You can Sneak Attack using splash weapons like flasks of acid and alchemist's fire (I believe there are more elements in Eberron books). The range increment is fairly low, but they count as touch attacks and you can full attack using them. You do need a way to make enemies flat-footed though (Wand of Grease, some kind of Greater Invisibility, Cloak of Deception, Hide checks, etc).

Fax Celestis
2010-06-04, 04:54 PM
I agree with you on that, but if he's playing Tiny or smaller, he has no reach and therefore will provoke merely from trying to attack his opponents. Therefore, ranged attacks will be superior--not to mention it'll let him apply his Dex mod rather than this Str mod to his attack rolls, which can pretty easily be a 10-point difference.

gallagher
2010-06-04, 04:59 PM
I was thinking taking a few levels of master thrower or whatever it is called, where I can make thrown weapons hit on touch ac. I could possibly also use poisons out the wazoo to help. The idea is to take away other guys buffs and wizards big spells, as well as being the lock and trap disabler

Keld Denar
2010-06-04, 05:05 PM
Whats the guy...Germalaine(sp) or something. Its size T, gets a +6 racial to Dex (great for ranged touches) among other things, and has no LA. I think its in Shining South or one of those Faerun setting books.

This kinda reminds me of the concept of like, a Goliath Crusader with a spiked chain and a Germalaine(sp) Dragonfire Adept perched on his shoulder spewing entangling napalmy fire on anything that moves. Nothing says lovin like a sentient shoulder-mounted flame thrower!

Darrin
2010-06-04, 10:58 PM
Whats the guy...Germalaine(sp) or something. Its size T, gets a +6 racial to Dex (great for ranged touches) among other things, and has no LA. I think its in Shining South or one of those Faerun setting books.


Jermlaine = MM2. But the other thing you're thinking of is a much better tiny alternative, Muck Dweller from Serpent Kingdoms.

Jermlaine's ability scores: Str -8, Dex +6, Con -2, Int -2, Wis +6, Cha -6.
Muck Dweller's ability scores: Str -6, Dex +6, Wis -2, Cha -2.

I'd recommend against the Jermlaine unless you're playing a druid and manage to keep it alive long enough to get Wildshape (which kinda makes the half-minotaur not so important at that point). The Muck Dweller is more likely to be playable. Either one would make a passable Warlock or Dragonfire Adept.

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-06-04, 11:52 PM
This is a scenario where I would actually recommend going for a counterspell focus, honestly. Spellthief/Sorcerer with the Master Spellthief, Improved Counterspell, and Reactive Counterspell feats, plus battlemagic perception, lets you counterspell 2 spells per round, one for free (assuming you keep recasting battlemagic perception) and one as an immediate action by spending a level X+1 slot. Take a level in Warlock as well, and you'll be using your standard action to steal a spell and your immediate/swift actions to counter spells. Pick up Spellfire Wielder and you can absorb hostile spells cast at you instead of countering, then sneak attack with the bolts of spellfire.

Fax Celestis
2010-06-04, 11:53 PM
Ooh, cool idea. See if you can use the Noctumancer (or a variant thereof) too.

gallagher
2010-06-05, 02:23 AM
Ooh, cool idea. See if you can use the Noctumancer (or a variant thereof) too.

could you please explain what a noctumancer is?

and also. as i understand it it is not best to single class a spellthief. what class is best to mix with? as i understand it should be best to mix with a rogue, as it will gain me more sneak attack die, or a ninja so i can go with adding wis to my armor and have soem other cool effects. was actually thinking warlock so i can attack at toch ac. do you get multiple attacks per round with an eldritch blast or is it a standard attack to fire just one?

Keld Denar
2010-06-05, 02:36 AM
The most common spellthief builds were already posted above.

Spellthief1/Wiz4/USS10/AT5 is pretty common, subbing out AT for SWS or even a dip in Archmage for Mastery of Reach. You get the most out of Spellthief by taking as few levels of it as possible, with very few exceptions.

And yea, you are limited to just 1 Eldrich Blast per round, unless you are invoking Eldrich Glaive from Dragon Magic.

Noctumancer is a Shadowcaster/Wizard hybred class, kinda like Mystic Theurge is for Cleric/Wizard. Unlike MT, though, Shadowcaster is pretty easy to get into with early entry techniques and contains ACTUAL class features, one of which is the ability to reactively counter enemies spells, which is pretty freakin sweet. Unfortunately, its kinda limited in times per day.

Brock Samson
2010-06-05, 07:08 AM
Don't forget to wand-chamber your ranged weapon and get the spell in the spell compendium(?) that activates as a swift action and lets you sneak attack from ANY DISTANCE!!!!!!! (a very low level spell too, anyone know the name? Sniper's Eye? Sniper's Shot?)

Consider a tiny short-bow maybe, so you can make more than one attack with a full-attack.

I've heard of the race Hengokai (something like that?) that lets you turn into a little bitty swallow.

Brock Samson
2010-06-05, 07:12 AM
Anyone know the restrictions on Dragonborn off the top of their head? Do you have to be humanoid? Anyway, whatever you play, getting wings (Jermalaine with wings) or a breath weapon (Jermalaine or teeny swallow with BIG BREATH WEAPON) could just be an interesting back-up, as you can attack the enemy your Big Boy is attacking right when you need to, even when it's crit-immune. (even when it's crit immune!).

gallagher
2010-06-05, 12:35 PM
Don't forget to wand-chamber your ranged weapon and get the spell in the spell compendium(?) that activates as a swift action and lets you sneak attack from ANY DISTANCE!!!!!!! (a very low level spell too, anyone know the name? Sniper's Eye? Sniper's Shot?)

Consider a tiny short-bow maybe, so you can make more than one attack with a full-attack.

I've heard of the race Hengokai (something like that?) that lets you turn into a little bitty swallow.

where can i find that race? being a bird sitting on his shoulder, and be all sing-songy while he kills stuff.

how much is a wand compartment? and then that spell that will let me sneak attack from any range would be incredibly useful

Brock Samson
2010-06-05, 12:49 PM
I hear the race is in I THINK unapproachable east, and that in the book it's listed as having a +1 level adjustment, but in a web enhancement they just change the subtype to Humanoid or Shapechanger(???) and now it's a 0 level adjustment. Come on playgrounders, can you provide this person with some concrete books, pages, and links?

and you can find the stats for wand compartmenting in I think Dungeonscape, and I think it's 100GP per weapon used, and the weapon just has to have a space large enough to fit the wand (keep in mind that you CAN technically get some pretty darn small wands, see the thinnest/shortest descriptive possibilities in the players handbook, it's literally pencil-sized I think. So you might be able to use a short-bow even and get multiple attacks off if you wand.

Alternatively: Girallon's Blessing (item/wand/whatever) and have both extra arms just hold extra wands.

PersonMan
2010-06-05, 12:50 PM
Sniper's Eye: Assassin 4; SA at 60'; DA at 60'
Sniper's Shot: Assassin 1 rngr 1, sor/wiz 1; 1 swift action to cast, any distance for SA

Spell Compendium page 193+194.

@^I think you need a feat to use multiple wands. I'm pretty sure that holding more than one would be fine, though. Remember, kids, ask your DM's permission before using stuff you found online!

arguskos
2010-06-05, 12:51 PM
Hengyokai is in Oriental Adventures, and has LA +1.

Fax Celestis
2010-06-05, 12:59 PM
@^I think you need a feat to use multiple wands. I'm pretty sure that holding more than one would be fine, though. Remember, kids, ask your DM's permission before using stuff you found online!

You do. Double Wand Wielder is in CArc, requires TWF.

gallagher
2010-06-05, 03:30 PM
How expensive would it be to have A reduce person spell permenancied, so that I can be a whisper gnome or a halfling and be tiny?

Fax Celestis
2010-06-05, 03:45 PM
Steal spells and do it yourself. :P

Zaq
2010-06-05, 04:25 PM
Isn't the number of spell levels you can hold related to your spellthief level? I know that Master Spellthief lets you steal higher level spells, but if you actually want to hang on to them and use them, don't you need proper spellthief levels? Or is there a way around that?

The Glyphstone
2010-06-05, 04:29 PM
This reminds me, actually, of something exactly like this that one of my previous campaigns had, except that it involved a Rod of Wonder. The sorcerer got hit with the Rod and shrunk to 5" tall. With no information to the contrary, we decided that the effects were permanent, and he became a "Predator Shoulder-Cannon" for the Fighter.

Fax Celestis
2010-06-05, 04:37 PM
Isn't the number of spell levels you can hold related to your spellthief level? I know that Master Spellthief lets you steal higher level spells, but if you actually want to hang on to them and use them, don't you need proper spellthief levels? Or is there a way around that?

IMO, RAI, Master Spellthief lets you hold onto them: it's just pretty poorly worded.

gallagher
2010-06-05, 09:59 PM
This reminds me, actually, of something exactly like this that one of my previous campaigns had, except that it involved a Rod of Wonder. The sorcerer got hit with the Rod and shrunk to 5" tall. With no information to the contrary, we decided that the effects were permanent, and he became a "Predator Shoulder-Cannon" for the Fighter.
access to evocation would indeed be nice. i will have to settle for wands and other people's spells for my blasting.

would it make sense that a spellthief could steal a spell from a wand, so that he could retain it and use it later without having to draw the wand? and could he steal from the spell slot in an Ocular Spell? would that spell, if it is indeed able to be taken, still be forced to be a ray?