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Thajocoth
2010-06-04, 03:34 PM
It's my understanding that Hybrids are generally underpowered.

I have the following houserules (some are irrelevant to Hybrids, but I'm listing them all):

* Unless you're doing something stupid, I ignore encumbrance.
* A quiver or equivalent contains essentially infinite ammo
* All forms of money are fluidly interchangeable. Example: If I give you 3 Astral Diamonds, in Astral Diamonds, so you now have 30,000gp, and you need to spend 10gp in residuum on a ritual, you now have 29,990gp. Money never counts towards encumbrance.
* You may choose to ignore any of the above if you wish to make things difficult for yourself, but I will not be keeping track of these minor things.
* Free Implement, Weapon or Versatile Expertise feat.
* If you gain skill training in the same skill twice (such as from a multiclass feat), which normally doesn't stack, the second time may count as Skill Focus in that skill.
* If you want to retrain multiple things at a given level, ask and I might allow it. Maybe.
* If you are playing a Hybrid class, you may select the Hybrid Talent feat twice, but must select the second benefit from the second class. If you take the Paragon Path after taking the feat twice, instead of getting the feat a 3rd time, you get a free bonus feat to spend on something else.


So, I was thinking about adding: If you take a Hybrid class, you get the Hybrid Talent feat once for free. I was wondering if people think doing this would be overpowered or balanced.

AstralFire
2010-06-04, 03:36 PM
Anyone want to verse me on what makes Hybrids weaker? Still learning the system. I found my Cler/Bard pretty snazzriffic.

Thajocoth
2010-06-04, 03:41 PM
Anyone want to verse me on what makes Hybrids weaker? Still learning the system. I found my Cler/Bard pretty snazzriffic.

Well, it's my understanding that you can't optimize them to the same point as you can with pure classes, and they tend to be more MAD keeping you from starting with an 20 in your primary ability score, which most people I play with do. Almost everything keys off your ability to hit, so starting with less means doing nothing much more often. Also, you tend to wind up with two different to-hit bonuses, which is more to keep track of, making people less likely to play them.

You're also only benefiting from one class or the other at any given time, and not from everything a character of that full class would be benefiting from at the time. I'm not really aware of ways to combine benefits from two separate Hybrid classes into good combinations.

Swordgleam
2010-06-04, 03:44 PM
Anyone want to verse me on what makes Hybrids weaker? Still learning the system. I found my Cler/Bard pretty snazzriffic.

Part of it is the role thing. Cleric and bard are both leaders, so you're just adding ways to do your leader role. But hybridizing between two different roles makes you suboptimal at both, and 4e somewhat expects a certain level of competence in each role.

Doug Lampert
2010-06-04, 03:46 PM
Anyone want to verse me on what makes Hybrids weaker? Still learning the system. I found my Cler/Bard pretty snazzriffic.

They're not neccessarily weaker, but it's a lot easier to screw up a hybrid than a single classed character.

Your Cleric/Bard gets half the healing from two leader classes, so he's a leader and not really any better at it than any other leader (well, you get to choose between a few extra HP and a slide the first time you heal someone, I guess that's good, but one healing power adds Wis and the other Cha so it's likely they're weaker than a single classed characters equivalent powers).

Then half your character's attack powers use Cha, and the other half use Wis or Str, so he's MAD.

I'm not sure about implements, but I think unless you spend a feat you need a weapon, a holy symbol, and an instrument (aka three items rather than a single weapon or implement).

At level 16 or so when the other clerics get another healing word a day you get to cry in your beer.

None of this is a disaster, and you've got a nice set of utility powers to choose from, but I have to question whether it's really even as good as a straight bard or cleric with a multiclass feat into the other. Especially given that Bards can use Charisma with their multiclass attack powers.

AstralFire
2010-06-04, 03:53 PM
Weapon and a holy symbol, and I'm running with 18 Cha/Wis at level 3, so could be worse, I think? (If anyone wants to give me advice on how to build my character, I'll stop derailing this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8612103#post8612103).)

Tengu_temp
2010-06-04, 04:08 PM
Hybrids are as MAD as you let them be. The best idea is to have both of your classes use the same primary attribute, preferably the same secondary attribute if possible (or one's primary is the other's secondary and vice versa and start with 18 in each), and to stick to either an implement or a weapon, not both. For example, it's a good idea to add either Barbarian or Cleric to a strength-based class: the former will increase your damage with high [w] powers, the latter will give you extra healing, including healing attacks. All of your powers still base on weapons, and choose correct ones and your MAD does not increase at all.

Chainsaw Hobbit
2010-06-04, 05:33 PM
Seems balanced, unless the hybrid combines 2 classes of the same role (single role hybrids are not underpowered).

Kurald Galain
2010-06-04, 08:37 PM
It's my understanding that Hybrids are generally underpowered.
I agree, and this appears to be the consensus of the charop board as well. However, the key word here is "generally". There are a few hybrid combinations that are very strong, and for these, your houserules on hybrids appear inappropriate.


Anyone want to verse me on what makes Hybrids weaker? Still learning the system. I found my Cler/Bard pretty snazzriffic.
That depends on what you mean by "snazzriffic", but I would wager that starting from high heroic levels, this character is less effective than either a straight cleric or a straight bard. Doug gives a few good reasons why; a simple example is that at level 16, either straight class gets three heals per encounter, whereas your hybrid does not.

Note that "less effective" does not mean "worthless", and that an underpowered character is generally not so much below average that it's no longer worth playing.


Seems balanced, unless the hybrid combines 2 classes of the same role (single role hybrids are not underpowered).
I do not believe it is that simple. For instance, a ranger|rogue has the problem that he can never use Sneak Attack and Hunter's Quarry damage on the same attack (and can use neither on basic attacks), which begs the question why he would need to have both SA and HQ. A multiclass character would be able to use both.

AstralFire
2010-06-04, 08:48 PM
To derail again - Bard, mc Cleric? or Bard//Cleric?

Draz74
2010-06-04, 08:55 PM
To derail again - Bard, mc Cleric? or Bard//Cleric?

I believe the standard punctuation to use for 4e Hybrids is Bard | Cleric.

Kurald Galain
2010-06-04, 08:57 PM
To derail again - Bard, mc Cleric? or Bard//Cleric?
I meant straight bard (MC'ing to e.g. sorcerer), or straight cleric (MC'ing to e.g. paladin or warlord).

AstralFire
2010-06-04, 09:03 PM
Just asking which was preferable of the two. I understood you. -nods- I like the union of the two classes flavor-wise and the mechanical assortment of powers I have.

Kurald Galain
2010-06-04, 09:07 PM
Just asking which was preferable of the two. I understood you.
Oh sorry. I'd say the cleric is the better healer, and the bard is better at moving things around on the battlefield.

But sure, a c|b sounds like a fitting and workable combination. I'm sure there's a few hybrids out there that are really counterproductive, such as mixing a class that has to be at range (e.g. seeker) with one that has to be in melee (e.g. fighter).

I find that if I say that I do not recommend hybrids, then this turns away precisely those people that probably shouldn't be playing a hybrid, and that people with the experience to make it work reasonably well are not deterred. $.2

AstralFire
2010-06-04, 09:10 PM
20 cents? My, what inflation! :smallbiggrin:

Thanks. Yeah, think I'll stick with the C|B. Just trying to learn what I can.

Tankadin
2010-06-04, 09:24 PM
There was a pretty fun sounding Darth Vader build that was a hybrid Swordmage|Warlock. Both classes can just load Int and Con, and Warlocks have some very sexy defender powers. The defenses looked more than a little scary.

The MAD thing was brought up, so if your hybrid can avoid that, like the aforementioned Swordmage|Defenderlock, then things can get pretty cool.

CarpeGuitarrem
2010-06-04, 09:30 PM
I haven't had a chance to put this into practice, but I theorize some of these builds can be played a lot better than their numbers make them sound. It's not about the numbers, when you're talking about hybrids. Hybrids are all about versatility. They let you do more things in two classes, sacrificing pure power to do it. Of course hybrids are underpowered when you're measuring pure power. The question is, how much of that power do they gain back in versatility?

And that's pretty hard to quantitatively measure.

Swordgleam
2010-06-04, 11:48 PM
The question is, how much of that power do they gain back in versatility?

And that's pretty hard to quantitatively measure.

The problem with that is that 4e is a lot about niche protection. So if you're hybriding two roles in a 4 person party, you're simultaneously stepping on someone else's toes and failing to pull weight at your own role. Theoretically.

Zaq
2010-06-05, 12:29 AM
I've noticed that one of the biggest problems with Hybrids is keeping your defenses (especially AC) up to snuff. To use a tiny bit of math terminology, you get the union of your weapon/implement proficiencies, but the intersection of your armor proficiencies (that is, you're proficient with a weapon/implement if either class has it, but you're only proficient with armor if both classes have it). More often than not, you have to spend your Hybrid Talent on one class's armor proficiency or other AC-granting feature, leaving the cool and iconic features as, basically, traps. (Case in point: a hybrid Warden will almost never have Font of Life, because if they don't spend HT on the Warden secondary-stat-to-AC ability or their other class's AC-granting feature, they likely just won't have the armor to do their job as a defender.) Which is sad, but that's the way the system is written. Then, since it's hard to line up your secondary stats, your other defenses often suffer a little bit as well. So hybrids often end up being kinda squishy compared to other classes. There are, naturally, exceptions (a Wizard|Psion has no problems with defenses, for example, nor does a Fighter|Paladin...) to the rule, but as a whole, you have to work to get a Hybrid's defenses to be on par with their single-classed counterparts.

Meta
2010-06-05, 02:31 AM
It's usually broken down like this:

60% of hybrid combinations are bad news
30% are good examples of what can be done and are a success
10% are much stronger than either of the single classes that comprise it

Thajocoth
2010-06-05, 02:48 AM
10% are much stronger than either of the single classes that comprise it

Can you give an example of some combination that does this? I don't just mean "Class A | Class B", I mean what about the 2 classes happens to synergize well to create a powerful combination? It looks impossible given the absolute separation in the Hybrid rules...

Meta
2010-06-05, 11:00 AM
Can you give an example of some combination that does this? I don't just mean "Class A | Class B", I mean what about the 2 classes happens to synergize well to create a powerful combination? It looks impossible given the absolute separation in the Hybrid rules...

Sure thing.

Deva Wizard|Avenger/Academy Master/ Soul of the World

Relevant Feats: Distant Vengeance, Arcane Mastery, Reaper's Touch
Powers: Wizard's Fury, Quicksilver Stance, Magic Missile
Equipment: Opal Ring of Rememberence, Greater Ring of Spell Storing

Encounter 1: Activate Wizard's Fury and Quicksilver Stance. 3 magic missiles a turn.
Encounter 2: Use action Point to get Fury back, ring of spell storing to get quicksilver
Encounter 3: Action point for Fury, Opal ring for quicksilver

With distant vengeance that's 3 MM's a round with oath of emnity reroll
Take minimal avenger powers (final oath is a great one, threatening strike for the encounter perhaps, and refocus emnity for the utility)

Array:

Str: 8
Con: 10
Dex:13
Int:18
Wis:18
Cha: 11

Feats:

Heroic:
Weapon Focus (Dual Implement Proficiency)
Wintertouched
Hybrid Talent: Orb of Imposition
Distant Vengeance
White Lotus Riposte
Versatile Expertise (Draconic Spellcaster)

Paragon:
Two Weapon Fighting
Lasting Frost
Painful Oath
Paragon Defenses (Robust Defenses at 21)
White Lotus Master Riposte
Superior Implement Proficiency Accurate Staff

Epic:
Reaper’s Touch
Wizard Implement Expertise
Two Weapon Opening
Enmity’s Dark Vigor
Spell Focus
Fist of Heaven

+39 vs reflex, rolling twice
Around +50 static damage mod

Powers at 30:

At-Wills
Magic Missile
Overwhelming Strike

Utilities:
Refocus Enmity
Wizard’s Escape
Refined Recall
Blur
Ironskin
Mass Fly
Past Life Manifestation

Encounters:
Steal Time
Threatening Strike
Ice Tomb
Learned Boost

Dailies:
Master’s Surge
Quicksilver Blade
Wizard’s Fury
Final Oath

Edit: You now have a wizard that gains 5 hp a level, does great striker damage and has the oathed magic missiles and wizards fury from level 1, so is completely playable 1-30. Plus carry around a +1 orb with a fun enchantment with your frost staves for fun lockdown, made even better with say a phrenic crown and both of your -2 to saving throws epic tier feats.

I love doing the impossible :smallamused:

Mando Knight
2010-06-05, 12:05 PM
You didn't do the impossible, you counted wrong.

Using your build and a Frost Staff to change the element of your Magic Missile to Cold, you have a +36 bonus to attack (15+9 (Int)+6 (Staff)+3 (feat)+2 (item)+1 (Sup. Imp.)) and +30 to damage (+39 to Enmity target 1/round), unless you add a Dragonshard, which boosts it by 5 at the most. Lasting Frost only grants Vulnerability 5... I don't see how you're getting a +50 damage modifier.

Compare this to the master of "F-You" damage modifiers, the Sorcerer. A sorcerer with the exact same paragon path and using Demigod, starting with 18 in both stats, a Staff of Ruin, Dragonshard, Dual Implement Caster, etc. can reach +54 damage to an at-will, and only drops down to +49 damage with other powers. Use an Incendiary Dagger or such instead of a Staff of Ruin, and it frees up the weapon enchantment and item bonus at the cost of only 2 damage.

Thajocoth
2010-06-05, 12:27 PM
Sure thing.

Deva Wizard|Avenger/Academy Master/ Soul of the World

Relevant Feats: Distant Vengeance, Arcane Mastery, Reaper's Touch
Powers: Wizard's Fury, Quicksilver Stance, Magic Missile
Equipment: Opal Ring of Rememberence, Greater Ring of Spell Storing

Encounter 1: Activate Wizard's Fury and Quicksilver Stance. 3 magic missiles a turn.
Encounter 2: Use action Point to get Fury back, ring of spell storing to get quicksilver
Encounter 3: Action point for Fury, Opal ring for quicksilver

With distant vengeance that's 3 MM's a round with oath of emnity reroll
Take minimal avenger powers (final oath is a great one, threatening strike for the encounter perhaps, and refocus emnity for the utility)

Array:

Str: 8
Con: 10
Dex:13
Int:18
Wis:18
Cha: 11

Feats:

Heroic:
Weapon Focus (Dual Implement Proficiency)
Wintertouched
Hybrid Talent: Orb of Imposition
Distant Vengeance
White Lotus Riposte
Versatile Expertise (Draconic Spellcaster)

Paragon:
Two Weapon Fighting
Lasting Frost
Painful Oath
Paragon Defenses (Robust Defenses at 21)
White Lotus Master Riposte
Superior Implement Proficiency Accurate Staff

Epic:
Reaper’s Touch
Wizard Implement Expertise
Two Weapon Opening
Enmity’s Dark Vigor
Spell Focus
Fist of Heaven

+39 vs reflex, rolling twice
Around +50 static damage mod

Powers at 30:

At-Wills
Magic Missile
Overwhelming Strike

Utilities:
Refocus Enmity
Wizard’s Escape
Refined Recall
Blur
Ironskin
Mass Fly
Past Life Manifestation

Encounters:
Steal Time
Threatening Strike
Ice Tomb
Learned Boost

Dailies:
Master’s Surge
Quicksilver Blade
Wizard’s Fury
Final Oath

Edit: You now have a wizard that gains 5 hp a level, does great striker damage and has the oathed magic missiles and wizards fury from level 1, so is completely playable 1-30. Plus carry around a +1 orb with a fun enchantment with your frost staves for fun lockdown, made even better with say a phrenic crown and both of your -2 to saving throws epic tier feats.

I love doing the impossible :smallamused:

#1 - Reaper's Touch requires Shadar-kai
#2 - Wizard's Fury allows you to cast Magic Missile ONCE per round as a Minor. It's still otherwise a Standard, so you do not get 3 per round. You can get 2 per round by spending one Minor and 1 Standard on Magic Missiles.
#3 - Hybrid Avenger only applies their Oath's double rolling to Avenger powers, which Magic Missile isn't. It's this separation (which every Hybrid class seems to have) that makes me doubt the existence of builds that combine things from both Hybrid classes of that build to make something more powerful than either separately.
#4 - Why are you taking 2-weapon fighting? You're holding implements, not weapons. A staff CAN count as both an implement and a weapon, but only if held 2-handed.

This is ultimately weaker than the At-Will Wizard I wrote up a few days ago:

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Razvahn, level 30
Shadar-kai, Wizard, Academy Master, Archmage
Build: Summoner Wizard
Arcane Implement Mastery: Wand of Accuracy
Arcane Admixture Damage Type: Arcane Admixture Thunder
Versatile Expertise: Versatile Expertise (Light Blade)
Versatile Expertise: Versatile Expertise (Wand)
Arcane Admixture Power: Magic Missile
Archspell: Wizard's Fury
Background: Auspicious Birth (Auspicious Birth Benefit)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 12, Con 13, Dex 24, Int 28, Wis 12, Cha 10.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 10, Con 11, Dex 14, Int 18, Wis 10, Cha 8.


AC: 44 Fort: 33 Reflex: 40 Will: 37
HP: 154 Surges: 7 Surge Value: 38

TRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +31, Nature +21, Religion +29, Dungeoneering +21

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +24, Bluff +15, Diplomacy +15, Endurance +16, Heal +16, History +24, Insight +16, Intimidate +15, Perception +16, Stealth +30, Streetwise +15, Thievery +22, Athletics +16

FEATS
Wizard: Ritual Caster
Level 1: White Lotus Riposte
Level 2: White Lotus Defense
Level 4: White Lotus Enervation
Level 6: White Lotus Evasion
Level 8: White Lotus Hindrance
Level 10: Reaper's Touch
Level 11: White Lotus Master Evasion
Level 12: White Lotus Master Hindrance
Level 14: White Lotus Master Riposte
Level 16: Oncoming Storm
Level 18: Mark of Passage
Level 20: Inescapable Force
Level 21: Arcane Admixture
Level 22: Unarmored Agility
Level 24: Versatile Expertise
Level 26: Superior Implement Training (Accurate wand)
Level 28: Long Step
Level 30: Raging Storm
Feat User Choice: Echoes of Thunder

POWERS
Wizard at-will 1: Storm Pillar
Wizard at-will 1: Magic Missile
Wizard encounter 1: Empowering Lightning
Wizard daily 1: Wizard's Fury
Wizard daily 1 Spellbook: Grease
Wizard utility 2: Shield
Wizard utility 2 Spellbook: Expeditious Retreat
Wizard encounter 3: Shock Sphere
Wizard daily 5: Scattering Shock
Wizard daily 5 Spellbook: Visions of Avarice
Wizard utility 6: Refocus
Wizard utility 6 Spellbook: Eyes of the Deep Delver
Wizard encounter 7: Concussive Echo
Wizard daily 9: Lightning Serpent
Wizard daily 9 Spellbook: Summon Succubus
Wizard utility 10: Repelling Shield
Wizard utility 10 Spellbook: Conviction
Wizard encounter 13: Thunderlance (replaces Empowering Lightning)
Wizard daily 15: Evard's Dreadful Mist (replaces Scattering Shock)
Wizard daily 15 Spellbook: Ball Lightning
Wizard utility 16: Practiced Mental Defense
Wizard utility 16 Spellbook: Fly
Wizard encounter 17: Thunderous Transformation (replaces Shock Sphere)
Wizard daily 19: Evard's Ebon Bindings (replaces Lightning Serpent)
Wizard daily 19 Spellbook: Oppressive Force
Wizard utility 22: Mordenkainen's Mansion
Wizard utility 22 Spellbook: Mass Fly
Wizard encounter 23: Chain Lightning (replaces Concussive Echo)
Wizard daily 25: Cinder Storm (replaces Evard's Ebon Bindings)
Wizard daily 25 Spellbook: Necrotic Web
Wizard encounter 27: Steal Time (replaces Thunderlance)
Wizard daily 29: Prismatic Wall (replaces Evard's Dreadful Mist)
Wizard daily 29 Spellbook: Summon Living Mountain

ITEMS
Spellbook, Shadowflow Starweave Armor +6, Cloak of the Phoenix +6, Bracers of Tactical Blows (epic tier), Airstriders (epic tier), Great Hero's Gauntlets (epic tier), Circlet of Indomitability (epic tier), Nullifying Ring (epic tier), Ring of Free Time (epic tier), Vengeance Sash (epic tier), Ghostwalk Tattoo (epic tier), Accurate wand of Thunderous Anguish +6
RITUALS
Brew Potion, Make Whole, Tenser's Floating Disk, Transfer Enchantment, Enchant Magic Item, Disenchant Magic Item, Remove Affliction, Song of Restfulness, Evard's Extensible Rope, True Sending, View Object, Observe Creature, Consult Oracle
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======

Mando Knight
2010-06-05, 01:18 PM
#1 - Reaper's Touch requires Shadar-kai
#2 - Wizard's Fury allows you to cast Magic Missile ONCE per round as a Minor. It's still otherwise a Standard, so you do not get 3 per round. You can get 2 per round by spending one Minor and 1 Standard on Magic Missiles.
#3 - Hybrid Avenger only applies their Oath's double rolling to Avenger powers, which Magic Missile isn't. It's this separation (which every Hybrid class seems to have) that makes me doubt the existence of builds that combine things from both Hybrid classes of that build to make something more powerful than either separately.
#4 - Why are you taking 2-weapon fighting? You're holding implements, not weapons. A staff CAN count as both an implement and a weapon, but only if held 2-handed.

He uses Soul of the Ages to qualify as a Shadar-Kai and Dragonborn, and to grab Quicksilver Blade to make a melee basic attack as a minor action. With Reaper's Touch, Magic Missile is now a melee basic attack. Distant Vengeance grants the Oath of Enmity bonus to ranged basic attacks, which Magic Missile is. Two-Weapon Fighting activates in the Character Builder while dual-wielding Staff implements for an unknown reason.

Weaknesses of the build: Quicksilver Blade and Distant Vengeance are mutually exclusive. Painful Oath only functions once per round. Quicksilver's bonus attack can't be used with Oath of Enmity.

Thajocoth
2010-06-05, 01:20 PM
He uses Soul of the Ages to qualify as a Shadar-Kai and Dragonborn, and to grab Quicksilver Blade to make a melee basic attack as a minor action. With Reaper's Touch, Magic Missile is now a melee basic attack. Distant Vengeance grants the Oath of Enmity bonus to ranged basic attacks, which Magic Missile is. Two-Weapon Fighting activates in the Character Builder while dual-wielding Staff implements for an unknown reason.

Weaknesses of the build: Quicksilver Blade and Distant Vengeance are mutually exclusive. Painful Oath only functions once per round. Quicksilver's bonus attack can't be used with Oath of Enmity.

Magic Missile is still not an Avenger power. I'd say Distant Vengeance would allow a ranged basic with a weapon to count, but not a ranged basic from another class. So they're not gaining anything extra by being a Hybrid. The intent with the Hybrid separation is to prevent you from applying one class's stuff to the other class. Distant Vengeance's intent is for an Avenger's ranged basic to count toward Oath of Enmity. So it essentially just makes their ranged basic (with a weapon) into an Avenger power. RAI > RAW. This is specifically because of the restriction presented by Oath of Enmity (Hybrid). If you found a way to have Magic Missile At-Will with a full Avenger, I'd allow it to work. A Half-Elf could do this by taking Magic Missile as their Dilettante and Versatile Master at level 11. Then multiclass Wizard and spend another feat for Wizard's Fury... This is not worth doing if you start below 11th level though.

I'd say the two-weapon thing in the builder is a bug.

If I was DM and somebody started playing this build, once I catch it (likely to be level 1, when I see them roll twice for a Magic Missile), I'd allow them to completely retrain their character between sessions. I don't like leaving people stranded with their poor choices, especially if they were misinterpreting the rules.

Kurald Galain
2010-06-05, 01:54 PM
With Reaper's Touch, Magic Missile is now a melee basic attack.
(edit) never mind, I was thinking of Sorcerous Blade Channel.

Regardless, the issue is still that hybrid re-rolling only applies to Avenger powers.

Formerly considered one of the best hybrid combinations was wizard|swordmage; however, as of the most recent errata, Enlarge Spell no longer works on swordmage powers, which makes this combo rather less effective. WOTC appears to be trying rather hard to avoid having a class power or class feat give a bonus to the other side of a hybrid.

Mando Knight
2010-06-05, 04:50 PM
Magic Missile is still not an Avenger power. I'd say Distant Vengeance would allow a ranged basic with a weapon to count, but not a ranged basic from another class. So they're not gaining anything extra by being a Hybrid. The intent with the Hybrid separation is to prevent you from applying one class's stuff to the other class. Distant Vengeance's intent is for an Avenger's ranged basic to count toward Oath of Enmity. So it essentially just makes their ranged basic (with a weapon) into an Avenger power.The text of the feat states all ranged basic attacks. Not just weapon-based ranged basic attacks. The original Oath states that only melee attacks can be used with the Oath, Hybrid Oath states only Avenger and Avenger Paragon Path melee attack powers can be used with the Oath, and Distant Vengeance states that you gain the full benefits of your Oath on all ranged basic attacks against the target of your Oath. Distant Vengeance thus wasn't made to make your RBA effectively an Avenger power (as there are Avenger powers that are ranged and cannot be used with the Oath), it was made to append an additional condition to the list of circumstances in which the Oath may be applied.
RAI > RAW.I don't think so. Unless the intent of the rules are clearly stated (i.e. written), the intent is powerless. Writing down the rules as the rules gives them the power that the mere intent does not have. Might the feat be updated later? Perhaps.

Kurald Galain
2010-06-05, 05:00 PM
The text of the feat states all ranged basic attacks. Not just weapon-based ranged basic attacks. The original Oath states that only melee attacks can be used with the Oath, Hybrid Oath states only Avenger and Avenger Paragon Path melee attack powers can be used with the Oath, and Distant Vengeance states that you gain the full benefits of your Oath on all ranged basic attacks against the target of your Oath.

So this could be parsed as either Distant Vengeance being the exception to Hybrid Oath, or Hybrid Oath being an additional limit that Distant Vengeance must also obey. I'd say either interpretation is valid, but I wouldn't count on every DM agreeing.

Mando Knight
2010-06-05, 05:05 PM
So this could be parsed as either Distant Vengeance being the exception to Hybrid Oath, or Hybrid Oath being an additional limit that Distant Vengeance must also obey. I'd say either interpretation is valid, but I wouldn't count on every DM agreeing.

Well, if Hybrid Oath takes precedence over Distant Vengeance, then it's completely worthless for every Hybrid Avenger, even if it's not one that would abuse the feat (like the aforementioned build or any Seek-Venger hybrids).

Kurald Galain
2010-06-05, 05:12 PM
Well, if Hybrid Oath takes precedence over Distant Vengeance, then it's completely worthless for every Hybrid Avenger, even if it's not one that would abuse the feat (like the aforementioned build or any Seek-Venger hybrids).

Yes, just as how hybrid fighters can only mark with their fighter powers (and not with basic attacks), and hybrid rogues can only sneak attack with their rogue powers (and not with basic attacks, either). I don't particularly like this pattern but it seems quite intentional.

Meta
2010-06-05, 06:14 PM
You didn't do the impossible, you counted wrong.

Using your build and a Frost Staff to change the element of your Magic Missile to Cold, you have a +36 bonus to attack (15+9 (Int)+6 (Staff)+3 (feat)+2 (item)+1 (Sup. Imp.)) and +30 to damage (+39 to Enmity target 1/round), unless you add a Dragonshard, which boosts it by 5 at the most. Lasting Frost only grants Vulnerability 5... I don't see how you're getting a +50 damage modifier.

Compare this to the master of "F-You" damage modifiers, the Sorcerer. A sorcerer with the exact same paragon path and using Demigod, starting with 18 in both stats, a Staff of Ruin, Dragonshard, Dual Implement Caster, etc. can reach +54 damage to an at-will, and only drops down to +49 damage with other powers. Use an Incendiary Dagger or such instead of a Staff of Ruin, and it frees up the weapon enchantment and item bonus at the cost of only 2 damage.


I believe you're missing a few things sir.
Lets fix to hit first.

+15 half level
+9 Int score
+2 Combat advantage via lasting frost/wintertouched/frost weapon
+2 Opal ring
+6 Enh
+1 Superior Implement
+3 Draconic
+1 Academy Master
+39

and as for damage:
Stat +9
Enh +6
Shard +5
DIS +6
Vuln cold +5
TWF +1
AM +5
GoI +4
DS +3
Painful:+9
+53 once per round and +44 for the rest. Add an item bonus for either RBAs or MBAs for whichever you use more. Thats 50 all day and 59 once a round


Edit: If you're killing things quickly, take vengeful declaration and mighty enmity for an easier time getting your oath. If you don't like the cheese of quicksilver stance, use overwhelming strike and get some boots to improve shiftyness. You'll lose 11 damage from that attack but gain some mobility and forced movement. Plus if you start next to an enemy its a good way to end up not adjacent to fire some MMs

Edit: Eagle Eye Gauntlets for more to hit!

Thajocoth
2010-06-05, 08:08 PM
I don't think so. Unless the intent of the rules are clearly stated (i.e. written), the intent is powerless. Writing down the rules as the rules gives them the power that the mere intent does not have. Might the feat be updated later? Perhaps.

Intent is obvious. The reason it's obvious was summed up well by Kurald Galain:


Yes, just as how hybrid fighters can only mark with their fighter powers (and not with basic attacks), and hybrid rogues can only sneak attack with their rogue powers (and not with basic attacks, either). I don't particularly like this pattern but it seems quite intentional.

(I would actually allow a player to decide that their un-classed attacks count as being part of one class or the other, but they cannot change that. So a Fighter | Rogue would have to decide whether their Melee Basic marks or deals extra sneak damage ahead of time, and the decision would stick.)

-----

It seems to me like giving Hybrid Talent once for free would be in the direction of balancing for most Hybrid builds, which are normally very suboptimal. I'm not seeing any cases where it would be overpowered to do... So I think I'll add the houserule to my games. Even with the houserule, I think there will still be some stigma against playing a Hybrid class.

Meta
2010-06-05, 08:42 PM
Intent is obvious. The reason it's obvious was summed up well by Kurald Galain:



(I would actually allow a player to decide that their un-classed attacks count as being part of one class or the other, but they cannot change that. So a Fighter | Rogue would have to decide whether their Melee Basic marks or deals extra sneak damage ahead of time, and the decision would stick.)

-----

It seems to me like giving Hybrid Talent once for free would be in the direction of balancing for most Hybrid builds, which are normally very suboptimal. I'm not seeing any cases where it would be overpowered to do... So I think I'll add the houserule to my games. Even with the houserule, I think there will still be some stigma against playing a Hybrid class.


I think your rule will be fine, I would recommend against allowing two hybrid talent feats though. Best of luck in your campaign, and if someone is interested in hybriding point them in the direction of the swordmage, arguably losing the least of any other class

Mando Knight
2010-06-05, 09:15 PM
Yes, just as how hybrid fighters can only mark with their fighter powers (and not with basic attacks), and hybrid rogues can only sneak attack with their rogue powers (and not with basic attacks, either). I don't particularly like this pattern but it seems quite intentional.

No, this is different. If Hybrid Oath takes precedence over Distant Vengeance, then Distant Vengeance is taking a feat to do absolutely nothing. None of the other hybrid options do that...

Well, except the hybrid Eldritch Pacts, which work off a feature that you have, but don't have. But at least that's fixable by using Hybrid Talent.
I believe you're missing a few things sir.
Lets fix to hit first.

+15 half level
+9 Int score
+2 Combat advantage via lasting frost/wintertouched/frost weapon
+2 Opal ring
+6 Enh
+1 Superior Implement
+3 Draconic
+1 Academy Master
+39

and as for damage:
Stat +9
Enh +6
Shard +5
DIS +6
Vuln cold +5
TWF +1
AM +5
GoI +4
DS +3
Painful:+9
+53 once per round and +44 for the rest. Add an item bonus for either RBAs or MBAs for whichever you use more. Thats 50 all day and 59 once a roundYou're counting conditionals and Combat Advantage ahead of time. If we want to do that, then I can show you how to get over +65 damage with an at-will, and at least +55 on everything else. While ignoring enemy resistance.

Meta
2010-06-05, 09:47 PM
No, this is different. If Hybrid Oath takes precedence over Distant Vengeance, then Distant Vengeance is taking a feat to do absolutely nothing. None of the other hybrid options do that...

Well, except the hybrid Eldritch Pacts, which work off a feature that you have, but don't have. But at least that's fixable by using Hybrid Talent.You're counting conditionals and Combat Advantage ahead of time. If we want to do that, then I can show you how to get over +65 damage with an at-will, and at least +55 on everything else. While ignoring enemy resistance.

None of that is conditional except painful and i made a note of it. I'm not sure what you're not seeing and +65 frankly isnt that impressive. 50 on 3 attacks is broken dpr, 65 not so much

Coidzor
2010-06-06, 05:53 AM
So... Hybrids get no synergy and their individual powers are weakened compared to the powers of a regular character... And can't get paragon paths and such?

So what do they have on Multiclassing other than starting from the get-go?

Actually, where is the write-up on hybrids located?

Kurald Galain
2010-06-06, 07:00 AM
No, this is different. If Hybrid Oath takes precedence over Distant Vengeance, then Distant Vengeance is taking a feat to do absolutely nothing. None of the other hybrid options do that...
Distant Vengeance is not a hybrid option, it is a feat. Yes, for any build there are several feats that do absolutely nothing for that build.


So what do they have on Multiclassing other than starting from the get-go?
Primarily, the ability to cherry pick powers from two class lists.


Actually, where is the write-up on hybrids located?
PHB3, as well as a mostly-identical playtest article in Dragon mag.

Tengu_temp
2010-06-06, 08:01 AM
So... Hybrids get no synergy and their individual powers are weakened compared to the powers of a regular character... And can't get paragon paths and such?


Where did that come from? Hybrid characters can choose paragon paths just like everyone else, though they have the option of getting different bonuses instead of getting a paragon path, like multiclass characters. Some hybrid class features are weaker than normal ones, but the actual powers work normally.

Hybrids are, first and foremost, a powergamer's tool. If your optimi-fu is strong you will be able to choose such a combination of classes that your gains will be much greater than your losses. If you don't care for builds and only look for flavour, you might end up with something like Fighter|Wizard, which is a terrible combination with extreme MAD.

Meta
2010-06-06, 12:06 PM
Where did that come from? Hybrid characters can choose paragon paths just like everyone else, though they have the option of getting different bonuses instead of getting a paragon path, like multiclass characters. Some hybrid class features are weaker than normal ones, but the actual powers work normally.

Hybrids are, first and foremost, a powergamer's tool. If your optimi-fu is strong you will be able to choose such a combination of classes that your gains will be much greater than your losses. If you don't care for builds and only look for flavour, you might end up with something like Fighter|Wizard, which is a terrible combination with extreme MAD.

You could play a genasi blaster wizard/fighter pretty effectively

RagnaroksChosen
2010-06-06, 12:26 PM
ranger| rogues are pritty rediculous most rounds you can get off a minor action attack and then a standard action attack so you can get SA and Querry damage in the same round.



There also a thing called paragon multiclassing. which if you take a MC feat then take all the power swap feats you can gain a bunch of the multiclass's powers and theres some paragon feats as well..


one of the best is rogue/warlock/paragon warlock with walker in gloom feat at paragon has pritty much perma invis.

Tengu_temp
2010-06-06, 01:11 PM
You could play a genasi blaster wizard/fighter pretty effectively

Not really. You have incredible MAD (you need 3-5 high stats), you need to spend a feat not to have sucky AC, and there is no synergy between your powers. A straight swordmage is much better at this job.

RagnaroksChosen
2010-06-06, 01:27 PM
Not really. You have incredible MAD (you need 3-5 high stats), you need to spend a feat not to have sucky AC, and there is no synergy between your powers. A straight swordmage is much better at this job.




realy only str and dex with the genasi empowerment you can add your wizard spells.

Thajocoth
2010-06-06, 01:30 PM
ranger| rogues are pritty rediculous most rounds you can get off a minor action attack and then a standard action attack so you can get SA and Querry damage in the same round.



There also a thing called paragon multiclassing. which if you take a MC feat then take all the power swap feats you can gain a bunch of the multiclass's powers and theres some paragon feats as well..


one of the best is rogue/warlock/paragon warlock with walker in gloom feat at paragon has pritty much perma invis.

I've played around with Ranger|Rogue in the builder... I didn't see a whole lot of Minor actions, but there were a lot of Immediate Actions. You could potentially get off SA and Quarry in the same round most rounds, but it requires you to have CA on someone else's turn whenever you Twin Strike and for you to predict your Quarry's behavior after each <Rogue At-Will of your choice>... Which are both almost impossibly difficult.

This will require things like gaining CA on foes vulnerable to cold, and dealing cold damage with your ranged attacks, for example. Perhaps multiclass to a marking class to mark your Quarry, to try to get it to do things that'll let you use your Immediates on it... The build really requires that you not only limit all your non-At-Will powers to non-Standard Actions (mostly Immediates), but several other feats, item magics, and the ability to predict what the DM will have monsters do, possibly the ability to influence what the DM will have monsters do. If the rest of the party works with your build, that can work somewhat easily, but they're likely to have cool stuff of their own that they want to do.

If someone can pull it off, I don't actually think it'd be broken. I mean, if a charging Barbarian pours everything into his charge, he can reliably do a LOT of damage. 6d6, 4d6 of which are brutal 2, with a big damage bonus... and that's still in heroic tier. The Ranger|Rogue, with the same amount poured into this effect, on a good turn (3 hits, which is less reliable than the Barbarian's charge), will deal about 2d10+4d6, with a much lower damage bonus than the mentioned Barbarian, but that bonus will be applied 3 times (for 3 separate hits). The Ranger|Rogue could pour more into the build as well, over time, than the Barbarian could, but I don't see anything wrong with that. You're taking a lot of things that, little by little, make a few big things, that sometimes work together.

EDIT: In my example, the Ranger|Rogue has actually poured more into the build than the charging Barbarian. I didn't fully take into account the fact that the Ranger|Rogue generally has 1 choice of power to take per level, rarely 2-3 choices, to work with this build.

A Ranger on their own can get near-permanent invisibility with the right items & PP. (The crossbow Ranger in my party right now is a crossbow turret. He plants himself somewhere, does something to get Total Concealment, and as long as he doesn't move, he keeps it.) How late does that Rogue|Warlock build start?

Mando Knight
2010-06-06, 01:32 PM
Not really. You have incredible MAD (you need 3-5 high stats), you need to spend a feat not to have sucky AC, and there is no synergy between your powers. A straight swordmage is much better at this job.

A Genasi blaster-fighter-wizard only really needs two high stats if he's careful: Strength and Intelligence. I'd then recommend putting in at least 13 on Wisdom and Constitution.

A Genasi Fighter|Wizard can make use of his melee side's Strength by getting Elemental Empowerment, which ramps up the damage of a Genasi's elemental Wizard spells by his Strength modifier. The Int boost is mostly useless on the other side unless he decides to MC into Swordmage, and the build is probably ultimately better off playing the same thing but as Wizard|Swordmage rather than Wizard|Fighter, but whatever.

AC is covered partially by the gish's Intelligence, and can reach Defender level if he dumps feats into it (things like Hafted Defense and Staff Fighter, then using a Staff of Ruin for everything).

Kurald Galain
2010-06-06, 01:43 PM
A Genasi blaster-fighter-wizard only really needs two high stats if he's careful: Strength and Intelligence. I'd then recommend putting in at least 13 on Wisdom and Constitution.Yes, a genasi blaster wizard is a good combination, but I fail to see what the fighter side is contributing to this hybrid.

Wizards are already known for having very good AC, anyway (with int bonus, staff of defense, and the Shield spell).

Tengu_temp
2010-06-06, 01:47 PM
As a fighter|wizard, you need:
Strength - for fighter powers.
Intelligence - for wizard powers.
Constitution - you're a defender, you need this to survive.
Wisdom - unless you purposely ignore the class features and powers that benefit from it.
Dexterity - if you want to take the powers that benefit from it and/or sword-based feats.

You also need to spend feats in order to have the AC that other defenders get without any effort, and you're still a worse defender since your constitution is low and you can only mark enemies you've hit with fighter powers (that means no Elemental Empowerment). You also need to either buy both a weapon and an implement, use a quarterstaff, or spend another feat on Arcane Implement Proficiency. You have to choose between tanking and controlling in each round - you can't do both at once - and while Elemental Empowerment helps your damage output, you're still not as good as a striker. This combination might be doable, but it's weaker at what it's supposed to do than any single-class characters with a similar party role. Swapping one of the halves (or even both of them) for swordmage makes it a lot better, but that's not the build we're talking about.

Thajocoth
2010-06-06, 01:51 PM
My Hybrid houserule with this modification:

* If you are playing a Hybrid class, you get Hybrid Talent as a free feat. You may select the Hybrid Talent feat a second time, but must select the second benefit from the class that you did not select a benefit from the first time. You cannot exceed 2 Hybrid Talent feats, so if you take the Hybrid Paragon Path and already have the feat twice, instead of getting the feat a 3rd time, you get a free bonus feat to spend on something else.

Mando Knight
2010-06-06, 01:53 PM
Yes, a genasi blaster wizard is a good combination, but I fail to see what the fighter side is contributing to this hybrid.

Moderate melee capabilities? I'd rather play it as a Wizard|Swordmage, myself. Fortunately (maybe?) enough, a Hybrid Fighter doesn't get any of the abilities that require a decent score elsewhere. However, that also means unless you have some clever plan for it and use your Hybrid Talent on a Fighter talent, the Fighter side provides nothing other than a nice cushion of HP and surges for a Wizard or similar hybrid.

Meta
2010-06-06, 02:48 PM
My Hybrid houserule with this modification:

* If you are playing a Hybrid class, you get Hybrid Talent as a free feat. You may select the Hybrid Talent feat a second time, but must select the second benefit from the class that you did not select a benefit from the first time. You cannot exceed 2 Hybrid Talent feats, so if you take the Hybrid Paragon Path and already have the feat twice, instead of getting the feat a 3rd time, you get a free bonus feat to spend on something else.

This COULD work. I'm trying to think of really good hyrbid talents and what could break with them.

In the meantime, Paladin/warlock that takes twofold pact and student of caiphon and boosts Con/Cha and takes paladin armor proficiency. Quite effective striker/defender, because you can take w/e powers you want that have sanction attached for marking and the warlock side has a high crit range and is quite tough in platemail. Radiant weapon and starfire womb are both critical.

EDIT: with your houserule, they'd have curse too

Kurald Galain
2010-06-06, 02:59 PM
In the meantime, Paladin/warlock that takes twofold pact and student of caiphon and boosts Con/Cha and takes paladin armor proficiency.
Here, too, I fail to see what the paladin side is contributing to the hybrid. Well, other than the armor proficiency, but warlocks don't particularly need that.

Meta
2010-06-06, 03:14 PM
Here, too, I fail to see what the paladin side is contributing to the hybrid. Well, other than the armor proficiency, but warlocks don't particularly need that.

A big thing with hybrids is that you double power selection. So basically you could play as a warlock through 30 levels as a tougher but slightly less damaging warlock BUT you're also almost a full defender with challenge and w/e sanction powers you would like. Divine challenge plus eyebite is particularly amusing

Tengu_temp
2010-06-06, 03:17 PM
Warlocks have some strong, but short-range area powers. Extra survivability helps you put them to good measure. Also, Divine Challenge + Eyebite is a very annoying combo, and you can use it all day long. Of course, a half-elf paladin can do the same for the cost of a feat once he hits paragon...

RagnaroksChosen
2010-06-06, 03:37 PM
I've played around with Ranger|Rogue in the builder... I didn't see a whole lot of Minor actions, but there were a lot of Immediate Actions. You could potentially get off SA and Quarry in the same round most rounds, but it requires you to have CA on someone else's turn whenever you Twin Strike and for you to predict your Quarry's behavior after each <Rogue At-Will of your choice>... Which are both almost impossibly difficult.

This will require things like gaining CA on foes vulnerable to cold, and dealing cold damage with your ranged attacks, for example. Perhaps multiclass to a marking class to mark your Quarry, to try to get it to do things that'll let you use your Immediates on it... The build really requires that you not only limit all your non-At-Will powers to non-Standard Actions (mostly Immediates), but several other feats, item magics, and the ability to predict what the DM will have monsters do, possibly the ability to influence what the DM will have monsters do. If the rest of the party works with your build, that can work somewhat easily, but they're likely to have cool stuff of their own that they want to do.

If someone can pull it off, I don't actually think it'd be broken. I mean, if a charging Barbarian pours everything into his charge, he can reliably do a LOT of damage. 6d6, 4d6 of which are brutal 2, with a big damage bonus... and that's still in heroic tier. The Ranger|Rogue, with the same amount poured into this effect, on a good turn (3 hits, which is less reliable than the Barbarian's charge), will deal about 2d10+4d6, with a much lower damage bonus than the mentioned Barbarian, but that bonus will be applied 3 times (for 3 separate hits). The Ranger|Rogue could pour more into the build as well, over time, than the Barbarian could, but I don't see anything wrong with that. You're taking a lot of things that, little by little, make a few big things, that sometimes work together.

EDIT: In my example, the Ranger|Rogue has actually poured more into the build than the charging Barbarian. I didn't fully take into account the fact that the Ranger|Rogue generally has 1 choice of power to take per level, rarely 2-3 choices, to work with this build.

A Ranger on their own can get near-permanent invisibility with the right items & PP. (The crossbow Ranger in my party right now is a crossbow turret. He plants himself somewhere, does something to get Total Concealment, and as long as he doesn't move, he keeps it.) How late does that Rogue|Warlock build start?


Actualy... there are quit a few of both rogue and ranger powers... ranger is the better one to have as your minor action though. IMO..

A character i was thinking about doing for a campain. Kinda was a rough draft so to say.



====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
vetis hybrid, level 13
Human, Ranger|Rogue, Daggermaster
Hybrid Ranger: Hybrid Ranger Fortitude
Hybrid Talent: Rogue Tactics (Hybrid)
Rogue Tactics (Hybrid): Brutal Scoundrel (Hybrid)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 18, Con 12, Dex 18, Int 11, Wis 15, Cha 14.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 16, Con 11, Dex 14, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 12.


AC: 24 Fort: 22 Reflex: 22 Will: 19
HP: 84 Surges: 7 Surge Value: 21

TRAINED SKILLS
Insight +13, Stealth +15, Acrobatics +15, Athletics +16, Dungeoneering +13, Streetwise +13, Thievery +15

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +6, Bluff +8, Diplomacy +8, Endurance +7, Heal +8, History +6, Intimidate +8, Nature +8, Perception +8, Religion +6

FEATS
Human: Two-Weapon Fighting
Level 1: Hybrid Talent
Level 2: Nimble Blade
Level 4: Quick Draw
Level 6: Weapon Expertise (Light Blade)
Level 8: Backstabber (retrained to Overwhelming Critical at Level 11)
Level 10: Disciple of Divine Wrath (retrained to Devastating Critical at Level 12)
Level 11: Weapon Focus (Light Blade)
Level 12: Two-Weapon Opening

POWERS
Bonus At-Will Power: Twin Strike
Hybrid at-will 1: Riposte Strike
Hybrid at-will 1: Probing Strike
Hybrid encounter 1: Off-Hand Strike
Hybrid daily 1: Press the Advantage
Hybrid utility 2: Hunter's Privilege
Hybrid encounter 3: Low Slash
Hybrid daily 5: Snarling Wolf Stance
Hybrid utility 6: Hidden Blade
Hybrid encounter 7: Claws of the Griffon
Hybrid daily 9: Profit from Weakness
Hybrid utility 10: Undaunted Stride
Hybrid encounter 13: Off-Hand Diversion (replaces Off-Hand Strike)

ITEMS
Subtle Dagger +2, Vicious Dagger +3, Serpentskin Leather Armor +2, Executioner's Bracers (heroic tier), Shuriken, Gauntlets of Ogre Power (heroic tier), Demonskin Tattoo (heroic tier)
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======

Meta
2010-06-06, 03:58 PM
Warlocks have some strong, but short-range area powers. Extra survivability helps you put them to good measure. Also, Divine Challenge + Eyebite is a very annoying combo, and you can use it all day long. Of course, a half-elf paladin can do the same for the cost of a feat once he hits paragon...

This is true, but you can still be a half elf and use your extra at will for something else like commander's strike, making you even more potent. And an MC wouldnt net you the armor profs, challenge, and paladin powers

Tengu_temp
2010-06-06, 04:01 PM
On the other hand, Hybrid Divine Challenge deals much less damage than normal one.

Meta
2010-06-06, 04:06 PM
3 in heroic, 4 in paragon, 5 in epic?i think you'll make that up with warlock powers and 18-20 crit range

Kurald Galain
2010-06-06, 04:52 PM
This is true, but you can still be a half elf and use your extra at will for something else like commander's strike, making you even more potent.
The problem with both this and the eyebite + sanction trick is that, starting from level 7, you have three encounter powers and possibly a daily and some item power, each of which likely gets used before you get to your at-wills.


3 in heroic, 4 in paragon, 5 in epic?i think you'll make that up with warlock powers and 18-20 crit range
Indeed: the damage from sanction is unimpressive compared to what your warlock powers do. So it strikes me that this hybrid combo, while surely fun to play, is less powerful than a straight warlock.

Which is pretty much the OP's point: that most hybrid combos end up being sub-par at both their sides.

Meta
2010-06-06, 05:29 PM
The problem with both this and the eyebite + sanction trick is that, starting from level 7, you have three encounter powers and possibly a daily and some item power, each of which likely gets used before you get to your at-wills.


Indeed: the damage from sanction is unimpressive compared to what your warlock powers do. So it strikes me that this hybrid combo, while surely fun to play, is less powerful than a straight warlock.

Which is pretty much the OP's point: that most hybrid combos end up being sub-par at both their sides.

This warlock does less damage certainly but that's not the point? Hes defender/striker and good at both. It's like saying a pure paladin is a better defender. Shocking?

Thajocoth
2010-06-07, 12:07 AM
I hadn't looked at melee Ranger stuff. What I looked into keyed entirely off of Dex, allowing you to start with a 20 in that score at level 1. Obviously, you get Shadowdance Armor for that once you can... And the Hybrid Talent option from Ranger to get the better version of Quick Draw. What I was doing could've dumped Str if they wanted to.

So you'll deal about the same damage, as the addition of str mod to sneak attack balances with the slight decrease of primary ability score going into the attack's damage, and you'll hit slightly less often, but be slightly more reliable about getting to attempt attacks with both classes each round. I'd say it's roughly the same, really.

Edea
2010-06-07, 01:45 AM
The strength of a hybrid half is intimately connected to how important its class features are for doing its job compared to its power repertoire. First off, the best races for hybrids are humans, half elves, and revenants. Githzerai and Deva are also nice choices. All of these either have the correct stat alignment for the better class halves, or possess additional at-will support.

As for classes themselves...

================================================== =
Some decent class halves:
================================================== =
*SWORDMAGE. Prime pick; loses next to nothing from hybridizing, and can combo with a fair number of int or con based ranged classes for hilarious kiting potential. The base for the Arcane Slasher, which is the top damage dealer on the CharOp boards atm iirc.

*BARBARIAN. Again, loses next to nothing of note from hybridizing. It gets the full rampage feature for free (probably the best feature anyway), rage strike would be worthless for a barb hybrid, and a feat nets you either the full feral might or some nice armor bonuses (hell, PH for both if you want). In exchange you now have access to some of the most ridiculously damaging powers in the game. Goes well with Ranger.

*WIZARD. Good...God. I mean, do wizards even HAVE class features? Spellbook is a HUGE pile of crap (Tome of Readiness, on the other hand, is cool, but still not necessary), Ritual Casting was bogus to start with (and you can get it with a feat regardless), and AIP can be grabbed with your Talent feat, presuming you actually want it (I almost never do). Wizard powers, on the other hand, are the things dreams are made of. Combine with Invoker for the Ioun's Disciple build.

*WARLOCK. Warlock's an odd duck. Not getting Eldritch Pact is...actually a bonus, because that means you're free to choose whatever warlock at-will you want, and you're not stuck with Eldritch Blast. Shadow Walk is duplicated by an item later in your career (better yet, multiclass assassin and grab the feat for it from Dragon, then retrain these out once you've got that item), so Prime Shot would be your main grab for the Talent feat. Warlock powers have a lot of control and nasty riders associated with them (most of them pact-independent); good for Swordmages and Wizards to pair up with (the former usually leading to the Slasher).

*RANGER. Rangers have minimal reliance on their class features regarding what they're notorious for: massive damage. Virtually all of their potential comes from their powers; the only thing possibly holding you back (and not by very much) is lack of Prime Shot (hello, Hybrid Talent). There are plenty of non-path specific PPs available to make getting a combat style unnecessary (in fact PHing might be preferable), and rangers get so many minor/OOT attacks they'll probably get Hunter's Quarry consistently anyway. Ranger mixes with Barbarian to create the Dervish.

*INVOKER. See Wizard. It's a walking pile of powers; the features mean next to nothing compared to them, and you get the one that matters (covenant manifestation). The Int-secondary version combos with Wizard while the Con-secondary combos with Druid.

*DRUID. Combine with Invoker for the Summoner build. Once again, druid's class features are pretty crap; in fact, Balance of Nature is no longer forced on you, so much like with warlock it acts as a boon since you're completely free to ignore at-will requirements.

*SEEKER. Goes best with ranger, and perhaps druid. Seekers have some nice gems in their power repertoire, but supplementing it with another class's powers can really help it out (it's not particularly strong on its own).

================================================== =
Things to avoid, pretty much always:
================================================== =
*ALL LEADERS. Sorry, the super-nerf of your word feature alone means it is almost never worth it, and most leaders operate perfectly well within their own class (the only ones that don't, shaman and ardent, ironically lose EVEN MORE than normal to hybrid).

*ALL DEFENDERS OTHER THAN SWORDMAGES. The mark feature getting raped means a lot of your job function is lost, and swordmage doesn't hybrid well with any of the other defenders, so if you're wanting to use one of them, just use the single-class version and multiclass the other power(s) you might want (unless you're intentionally twisting them to the purpose of striking, such as perhaps with the fighter class; if you're doing this, my advice is don't even pretend to be a defender, just act like a striker would).

*ANY CLASS WITH PSIONIC AUGMENTATION. Lord, did they kick the living daylights out of that feature in hybrid. IMO the whole point was that you could make use of retained lower level powers for longer periods of time; hybrid ruins that, so I wouldn't bother (which is too bad, since battlemind and psion have some pretty lol dailies).

*MOST STRIKERS. Unlike ranger and barbarian, most strikers really need to get their class features to trigger to keep up the damage (warlock, again, is the odd man out, and is unique in this category). Sorcerer and avenger, in particular, gain next to nothing from hybridizing since they're so dependent on class features that have been 'taken care of' by the hybrid rules.
================================================== =

Main thing to take away from this: the best role for hybridization is, without a -doubt-, controller. Far and away. The only controller that loses out is the Psion because it's an augmenter; all the other ones are great hybrid halves.

Striker is next best, but is pushing hybridization's limits (and only works with certain ones, strangely enough the ones that were most damaging to begin with).

Leader and Defender-sans-swordmage, it's NOT that the character'd be unplayable or worthless; far from it. It's just that...why not go single class with them? Hybridizing just doesn't -do- much of anything for them, and seems to cause more problems than it solves.

And yeah, this is definitely a minority of good hybrid combos. As stated, most of them are pretty meh (and many of them really do suck).

Gralamin
2010-06-07, 01:52 AM
*ALL LEADERS. Sorry, the super-nerf of your word feature alone means it is almost never worth it, and most leaders operate perfectly well within their own class (the only ones that don't, shaman and ardent, ironically lose EVEN MORE than normal to hybrid).
Artificer is an Exception: They work very well with hybriding, though only having one Infusion hurts.


*ALL DEFENDERS OTHER THAN SWORDMAGES. The mark feature getting raped means a lot of your job function is lost, and swordmage doesn't hybrid well with any of the other defenders, so if you're wanting to use one of them, just use the single-class version and multiclass the other power(s) you might want (unless you're intentionally twisting them to the purpose of striking, such as perhaps with the fighter class; if you're doing this, my advice is don't even pretend to be a defender, just act like a striker would).
Warden is doable, though their marking potential is down. Some Paladin builds work, but you have to focus on Sanctum.


*ANY CLASS WITH PSIONIC AUGMENTATION. Lord, did they kick the living daylights out of that feature in hybrid. IMO the whole point was that you could make use of retained lower level powers for longer periods of time; hybrid ruins that, so I wouldn't bother (which is too bad, since battlemind and psion have some pretty lol dailies).
Ardent|Battlemind would work well, if they both were... better.


Otherwise the above is a good summary.

Kurald Galain
2010-06-07, 02:38 AM
T
*WIZARD. Good...God. I mean, do wizards even HAVE class features? Spellbook is a HUGE pile of crap (Tome of Readiness, on the other hand, is cool, but still not necessary), Ritual Casting was bogus to start with (and you can get it with a feat regardless), and AIP can be grabbed with your Talent feat, presuming you actually want it (I almost never do). Wizard powers, on the other hand, are the things dreams are made of.

While wizard hybrids are popular, I would argue that precisely because their powers are so excellent, that gives a strong incentive not to hybridize them. After all, why not choose all of your powers from the dream list?

Coidzor
2010-06-07, 02:45 AM
Thank you Edea, that shed a lot of light on the subject and summarized it nicely for those of us who are not very well versed in the subject matter at hand.

Tengu_temp
2010-06-07, 05:17 AM
Could someone link, copy-paste or describe the Arcane Slasher build?



*ANY CLASS WITH PSIONIC AUGMENTATION. Lord, did they kick the living daylights out of that feature in hybrid. IMO the whole point was that you could make use of retained lower level powers for longer periods of time; hybrid ruins that, so I wouldn't bother (which is too bad, since battlemind and psion have some pretty lol dailies).


How about a hybrid where both sides have psionic augmentation? You have the same amount of power points as a full psionic character.


While wizard hybrids are popular, I would argue that precisely because their powers are so excellent, that gives a strong incentive not to hybridize them. After all, why not choose all of your powers from the dream list?

Because adding a few powers and features from another class can make them even better?

Mando Knight
2010-06-07, 08:59 AM
How about a hybrid where both sides have psionic augmentation? You have the same amount of power points as a full psionic character.

Well, the only choices are basically Ardent|Battlemind or Ardent|Psion if you don't want serious MAD... Ardents use Charisma as their primary, which is a secondary for both the Psion and Battlemind, who use Int and Con as primaries, respectively, and neither one uses the other for a secondary. BattleArdent is probably the best one, since the Elation Ardent uses Con as a secondary.

OMG PONIES
2010-06-07, 12:27 PM
I've been playing a paragon warden | warlock, focusing on STR and CON. He's done a great job of using Eldritch Strike w/ White Lotus Master Riposte to put the enemies in a Catch-22. They have no incentive to attack my allies, and a disincentive to attack me directly. The marking one target hurts, but I've found with a fighter MC (Battle Awareness, to allow another use of Eldritch Strike) you can take the Avernian Knight PP for a 1-encounter multimark and some other useful abilities.

RagnaroksChosen
2010-06-07, 12:32 PM
Well, the only choices are basically Ardent|Battlemind or Ardent|Psion if you don't want serious MAD... Ardents use Charisma as their primary, which is a secondary for both the Psion and Battlemind, who use Int and Con as primaries, respectively, and neither one uses the other for a secondary. BattleArdent is probably the best one, since the Elation Ardent uses Con as a secondary.

I made an Battlemind/Psion one day that focused soly on powers that eaither made the opponite attack himself or one of his allies. it was an amusing build. though im sure horribly underpowered.

Thajocoth
2010-06-07, 02:42 PM
Sorry to nitpick, but Barbarians only get to Rampage with Barbarian powers. So, if you crit on a non-Barb power, you don't get the free attack.

I've never really seen Swordmage as a strong class. It's a "Defender" who's best tactic tends to be to stay away from their marked target. A Hybrid Swordmage can't change who's marked. By RAW, if a Hybrid Swordmage drops unconscious or their marked enemy runs away, then no one in the battle is marked by them and they can't mark someone else. (Though, I'd let them recharge their Aegis power when those things happen. It just seems cruel not to.)

Most of these combinations are still MAD, and those that aren't, I'm not seeing what you gain with a Hybrid that's as good as a full class. You mention a Hybrid Swordmage being the top damage dealer somehow... I have trouble seeing how they can deal as much damage as other Defenders, let alone any Strikers. How does that work?

RagnaroksChosen
2010-06-07, 02:48 PM
Sorry to nitpick, but Barbarians only get to Rampage with Barbarian powers. So, if you crit on a non-Barb power, you don't get the free attack.

I've never really seen Swordmage as a strong class. It's a "Defender" who's best tactic tends to be to stay away from their marked target. A Hybrid Swordmage can't change who's marked. By RAW, if a Hybrid Swordmage drops unconscious or their marked enemy runs away, then no one in the battle is marked by them and they can't mark someone else. (Though, I'd let them recharge their Aegis power when those things happen. It just seems cruel not to.)

Most of these combinations are still MAD, and those that aren't, I'm not seeing what you gain with a Hybrid that's as good as a full class.

Most people who hybrid with sword mage arn't doing it for the mark. there doing it for the swordsage powers.

Thajocoth
2010-06-07, 02:49 PM
Most people who hybrid with sword mage arn't doing it for the mark. there doing it for the swordsage powers.

They must be reading a different set of powers than me. I see no reason why one would want them.

RagnaroksChosen
2010-06-07, 02:59 PM
They must be reading a different set of powers than me. I see no reason why one would want them.

Sword burst, and some of there other at wills are pritty good for int based builds
Chilling Blow, Blades of Fiery Wrath(is decent)
Dual Lightning Strike < good with arcane slashers
Thunderclap Strike...

Just to name some low level ones i enjoy.

realy they shine with Arcane slasher builds do to all the teleport powers or wizard builds.

Warlock|swordmages are great.

Thajocoth
2010-06-07, 03:27 PM
If you get surrounded, I can see the usefulness of some of those. I haven't really seen people get surrounded often without things like Come & Get It to pull enemies into such positions. Most of the non-Close Burst 1 stuff is really too conditional to be great.

Swordmages don't really give a whole lot of reason for enemies to go after them as opposed to walking around them to go after someone else.

Meta
2010-06-07, 03:28 PM
They must be reading a different set of powers than me. I see no reason why one would want them.

Dimensional Vortex
Transposing Lunge
Thundering Vortex
Giant's Might
Quicksilver Stance (used on that avenger|wizard build that averages over 150 dpr? Not sure how that's lacking)
Transdimensional Invasion

All great powers to name just a few

People are giving you plenty of great hybrid classes, but you seem insistent on hybrids being power sunk, which just isn't the case

RagnaroksChosen
2010-06-07, 03:29 PM
If you get surrounded, I can see the usefulness of some of those. I haven't really seen people get surrounded often without things like Come & Get It to pull enemies into such positions. Most of the non-Close Burst 1 stuff is really too conditional to be great.

Swordmages don't really give a whole lot of reason for enemies to go after them as opposed to walking around them to go after someone else.


you don't hybrid swordsage to play a defender you use it for other stuff. like more arcane attacks, or teleportation stuff.

Thajocoth
2010-06-07, 03:31 PM
People are giving you plenty of great hybrid classes, but you seem insistent on hybrids being power sunk, which just isn't the case

No, people are giving me half-information with a lot of blanks. How do you get an Avenger|Wizard build to average 150 damage per round? You simply state that it exists, but I have not seen it.


you don't hybrid swordsage to play a defender you use it for other stuff. like more arcane attacks, or teleportation stuff.

Doesn't that make Close Bursts less worth taking, if you're not planning to get surrounded a lot? You mostly listed Close Burst 1 powers.

Meta
2010-06-07, 03:32 PM
No, people are giving me half-information with a lot of blanks. How do you get an Avenger|Wizard build to average 150 damage per round? You simply state that it exists, but I have not seen it.



Doesn't that make Close Bursts less worth taking, if you're not planning to get surrounded a lot?

Page 1. Although you may not like the rulings, it's completely legit. I built an avenger|wizard that will average that much DPR

Thajocoth
2010-06-07, 03:37 PM
Page 1. Although you may not like the rulings, it's completely legit. I built an avenger|wizard that will average that much DPR

It's an obvious misinterpretation of the intended interaction between a Hybrid option and a feat. I don't think it's legit. That "build", however, is one of the few times in this thread that someone really attempted to answer my original question, instead of giving me half-information. Something being "not bad" is not the same as it being "as good as a full class can be at doing the same thing". So simply stating that you lose very little from a particular Hybrid class, like Swordmage, doesn't mean that a Swordmage | Something else can be better at doing X than a full class somewhere. If it CAN, then I shouldn't give a free feat to Hybrid builds. If it CAN'T, then I should. That's the question simplified.

Meta
2010-06-07, 03:43 PM
It's an obvious misinterpretation of the intended interaction (or lack therof) between a Hybrid option and a feat. I don't think it's legit. That "build", however, is one of the few times in this thread that someone really attempted to answer my original question.

While I understand what you're saying and agree it is pushing a limit, its character builder legal and that's a WotC product so they have the final say. You may choose to rule against it in your home game but it is allowed

Thajocoth
2010-06-07, 03:49 PM
While I understand what you're saying and agree it is pushing a limit, its character builder legal and that's a WotC product so they have the final say. You may choose to rule against it in your home game but it is allowed

I just selected, in the Builder, Hybrid Avenger|Wizard, Distant Vengeance feat and Magic Missile. It does not state anywhere on the generated card for Magic Missile or on the power summary under Powers when I look at Magic Missile, that you can roll twice for attacks with it if you're targeting your Oath target. I see no Character Builder support for your claim.

I'm not saying you can't take the feat, I'm saying the feat is not intended to effect Magic Missile in a Hybrid build, because of the separation given to Oath of Enmity in Hybrid Avenger.

Just like, if a Half-Elf takes Wild Elf Luck, the feat does absolutely nothing, but the builder lets you take it anyway.

RagnaroksChosen
2010-06-07, 03:56 PM
It's an obvious misinterpretation of the intended interaction between a Hybrid option and a feat. I don't think it's legit. That "build", however, is one of the few times in this thread that someone really attempted to answer my original question, instead of giving me half-information. Something being "not bad" is not the same as it being "as good as a full class can be at doing the same thing". So simply stating that you lose very little from a particular Hybrid class, like Swordmage, doesn't mean that a Swordmage | Something else can be better at doing X than a full class somewhere. If it CAN, then I shouldn't give a free feat to Hybrid builds. If it CAN'T, then I should. That's the question simplified.

Ok i can list you builds

Heres arcane slasher
http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/22386497/Arcane_Slasher_%28410_DPR%29?pg=1


Some of these may be out dated but:
http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19643474/34;Thunderglaive34;_-_swordmagewizard_controller

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19648578/Stormtroopers_-_Builds_abusing_Mark_of_Storm

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19716694/The_Arcane_Blade

Though realy if you want you can find some realy good hybrid build here
http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19649074/The_Complete_Collection_of_Character_Build_Links

Thajocoth
2010-06-07, 04:11 PM
Ok i can list you builds

Heres arcane slasher
http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/22386497/Arcane_Slasher_%28410_DPR%29?pg=1


Some of these may be out dated but:
http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19643474/34;Thunderglaive34;_-_swordmagewizard_controller

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19648578/Stormtroopers_-_Builds_abusing_Mark_of_Storm

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19716694/The_Arcane_Blade

Though realy if you want you can find some realy good hybrid build here
http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19649074/The_Complete_Collection_of_Character_Build_Links

That was helpful. The Arcane Slasher does something that I can't think of a non-Hybrid that does... Giving 2 different conditional damages that the enemy must choose between, but it looks like it needs a lot of setup and specific magic items, so I don't think the extra feat is overpowered there. It's probably the best use of Hybrid I've seen.

Balain
2010-06-07, 04:17 PM
... you need to spend 10gp in residuum on a ritual, you now have 29,990gp. ...

Just a side note on rituals. The gold to cast is not how much gold it takes to actually cast the ritual, but a value of the amount of components you need. Each ritual will require a type of component. So characters the are ritual casters need to keep track of how much of each type of component they have on them. I ignore the weight of those components, but I make the players keep track of how much of each they have. If they didn't buy enough components they can't cast the ritual.

Meta
2010-06-07, 04:29 PM
I just selected, in the Builder, Hybrid Avenger|Wizard, Distant Vengeance feat and Magic Missile. It does not state anywhere on the generated card for Magic Missile or on the power summary under Powers when I look at Magic Missile, that you can roll twice for attacks with it if you're targeting your Oath target. I see no Character Builder support for your claim.

I'm not saying you can't take the feat, I'm saying the feat is not intended to effect Magic Missile in a Hybrid build, because of the separation given to Oath of Enmity in Hybrid Avenger.

Just like, if a Half-Elf takes Wild Elf Luck, the feat does absolutely nothing, but the builder lets you take it anyway.

The power cards don't list specifics like that. Does it say on overwhelming strike that you can use oath? no but you can. Specific beats general is a commonly used benchmark. And distant vengeance specifically says you can use oath of emnity on RBAs

Thajocoth
2010-06-07, 04:36 PM
Just a side note on rituals. The gold to cast is not how much gold it takes to actually cast the ritual, but a value of the amount of components you need. Each ritual will require a type of component. So characters the are ritual casters need to keep track of how much of each type of component they have on them. I ignore the weight of those components, but I make the players keep track of how much of each they have. If they didn't buy enough components they can't cast the ritual.

Right. I allow them to have coincidentally bought exactly what they need for the rituals retroactively.


The power cards don't list specifics like that. Does it say on overwhelming strike that you can use oath? no but you can. Specific beats general is a commonly used benchmark. And distant vengeance specifically says you can use oath of emnity on RBAs

Exactly. So how can you claim that the Character Builder supports your interpretation? I'm saying that my interpretation is very obviously the intention, even if a rules lawyer can argue it's not precisely what's written... RAI > RAW.

Mando Knight
2010-06-07, 04:51 PM
I just selected, in the Builder, Hybrid Avenger|Wizard, Distant Vengeance feat and Magic Missile. It does not state anywhere on the generated card for Magic Missile or on the power summary under Powers when I look at Magic Missile, that you can roll twice for attacks with it if you're targeting your Oath target. I see no Character Builder support for your claim.

...You realize it doesn't do that for even a full-blooded Avenger when you look at its melee powers?

Thajocoth
2010-06-07, 04:56 PM
...You realize it doesn't do that for even a full-blooded Avenger when you look at its melee powers?

Yes. My point was that:


...its character builder legal and that's a WotC product so they have the final say...

The Builder does not support his claim, as he claims it does.

Coidzor
2010-06-07, 04:59 PM
Um. Shouldn't we be taking actual text as the basis for our judgment instead of whether the character builder includes something on a power card?

Reverent-One
2010-06-07, 05:01 PM
Um. Shouldn't we be taking actual text as the basis for our judgment instead of whether the character builder includes something on a power card?

This. The character builder can be buggy, just because it allows something doesn't mean that something is actually within the rules, or vise versa.

Thajocoth
2010-06-07, 05:06 PM
Um. Shouldn't we be taking actual text as the basis for our judgment instead of whether the character builder includes something on a power card?

Mu.

To reiterate for those who have obviously not been paying attention: Oath of Enmity (Hybrid) summarized: Oath of Enmity's double rolling only works on Avenger powers. The precise text is slightly longer, but the intent is still obvious, especially when you look at the fact that every Hybrid class that has a power-effecting Class Feature has the same split. It is obvious from this that Distant Vengeance for a Hybrid Avenger should not effect a Ranged Basic that's part of the non-Avenger half of the Hybrid.

My point regarding the builder was that Potion Sale says that the Builder supports his claim. I'm saying that the Builder supports neither claim, and is irrelevant for this discussion. See also: Posts 85 & 87, where I say the exact same thing as I just said in this post.

This is part of why I don't debate things, especially online. People read what they want to and ignore what you actually say. So you have to say it 20 times 20 different ways, and then people continue to ignore that, looking at only the version of what you said that they feel like focusing on.

EDIT: I don't want to go any further off-topic, so I will no longer discuss the effect of Distant Vengeance for Hybrid Avengers unless either a new topic is made or discussion is done via PMs.

Edea
2010-06-07, 06:37 PM
Sorry to nitpick, but Barbarians only get to Rampage with Barbarian powers. So, if you crit on a non-Barb power, you don't get the free attack.

...which is exactly what a normal barbarian has, anyway. You didn't lose anything from it by hybridizing over, say, multiclassing. If you don't want access to another class's powers, there is ZERO reason to hybrid, so the fact that you even get it at all is a plus.



I've never really seen Swordmage as a strong class. It's a "Defender" who's best tactic tends to be to stay away from their marked target. A Hybrid Swordmage can't change who's marked. By RAW, if a Hybrid Swordmage drops unconscious or their marked enemy runs away, then no one in the battle is marked by them and they can't mark someone else. (Though, I'd let them recharge their Aegis power when those things happen. It just seems cruel not to.)


If a mark causes an enemy to run, I'll gladly lose the mark for it. That's basically a 1/enc instant death power, which would cause a MASSIVE ****storm if it actually went into print. As for falling unconscious, I think you're mixing that up with the Warding, which got errata'd; not seeing that anywhere for their mark ability.



Most of these combinations are still MAD, and those that aren't, I'm not seeing what you gain with a Hybrid that's as good as a full class. You mention a Hybrid Swordmage being the top damage dealer somehow... I have trouble seeing how they can deal as much damage as other Defenders, let alone any Strikers. How does that work?

Someone missed the White Lotus article, sword burst (and the feats that make it insane), and most of the feats/items/powers that boost teleportation abilities (though thankfully someone hooked you up with the slasher). Better, these work with other arcane powers, such as...wizard and warlock (and artificer, as Gral mentioned, assuming you don't mind the loss of the infusion).

Also: Swordmage|Wizard is INT|CON (actually INT|STR even works for that one, especially if you're a genasi). Swordmage|Warlock is INT|CON. Barbarian/Ranger is STR|DEX. Druid|Invoker is WIS|CON. These are not MAD builds; even a single class build is going to use at least two attributes, this is one of the basics of 4e class design :/.

Meta
2010-06-07, 07:51 PM
Yes. My point was that:



The Builder does not support his claim, as he claims it does.

I consider the builder and compendium one feature, i apologize for the confusion. The compendium is basically an archive of all of the powers, items, etc. that have been released. It also features the errata. Distance Vengeance and Hybrid Oath have had no change since release and Distant Vengeance specifically says roll two attack rolls against Oath target for RBAs. That's what the build does. If WotC sees fit to change that interaction, then you shall be correct

RagnaroksChosen
2010-06-07, 07:58 PM
I consider the builder and compendium one feature, i apologize for the confusion. The compendium is basically an archive of all of the powers, items, etc. that have been released. It also features the errata. Distance Vengeance and Hybrid Oath have had no change since release and Distant Vengeance specifically says roll two attack rolls against Oath target for RBAs. That's what the build does. If WotC sees fit to change that interaction, then you shall be correct


Actualy i hate to say it but your wrong.
Hybrid avenger

You gain the avenger power oath of enmity. The power functions as normal, except that you can apply the effect only when you make a melee attack using an avenger power or an avenger paragon path power.


You can only use oath on avenger only abilities.
EDIT: And before you say it the feat does not over ride the fact that it only works with avenger powers it only overrides the fact that it must be melee.
/EDIT


The only way to do what your saying to do is through paragon multiclassing buy going strait avenger with mc wizard taking the power swap feats Multiclassing paragon then you can do that. Which to be honest with you isn't realy worth it.


Or for that matter play a half elf avenger grab magic missle as your dilliant power and pick up the master dilliant feat at paragon.

no hybriding oath though.

wizuriel
2010-06-07, 08:14 PM
I think some leaders work to hybrid. Invoker | Cleric seems like a good combination. Clerics get some really nice ally friendly bursts/blasts and some awsome paths for invokers to use. Unless I read it wrong the manifestation you get should work on most cleric powers also (since they are divine still). The little extra healing for your party at this point is just the icing on the cake.

Meta
2010-06-07, 08:15 PM
Actualy i hate to say it but your wrong.
Hybrid avenger


You can only use oath on avenger only abilities.
EDIT: And before you say it the feat does not over ride the fact that it only works with avenger powers it only overrides the fact that it must be melee.
/EDIT


The only way to do what your saying to do is through paragon multiclassing buy going strait avenger with mc wizard taking the power swap feats Multiclassing paragon then you can do that. Which to be honest with you isn't realy worth it.


Or for that matter play a half elf avenger grab magic missle as your dilliant power and pick up the master dilliant feat at paragon.

no hybriding oath though.


This is almost amusing...

Step 1: Okay I play a hybrid avenger|wizard and have oath of emnity on my avenger powers.

Step 2: I Take Distant Vengeance

Distant Vengeance
Prerequisites: Avenger, oath of enmity power
Benefit: As long as you are within 10 squares of
your oath of enmity target and no other enemies are
adjacent to you, you gain the benefit of your oath of
enmity on all ranged basic attacks against your oath of
enmity target.

Step 3: I use magic missile (a ranged basic attack) and via Distant Vengeance roll twice as the feat I have selected says

Thajocoth
2010-06-07, 08:34 PM
As for falling unconscious... I was confusing the fact that enemies can ignore a mark's effects while the marker is unconscious for removing the mark when the marker is unconscious. Thinking about it though, I think the mark technically stays there, and becomes active again when the Defender returns to consciousness. I wish I could remember where to find the latest errata though to be certain.

Focusing on two ability scores isn't MAD. Having two PRIMARY ability scores is. So if you have a Hybrid of two classes where Class A is Str/Wis, and Class B is Wis/Str, despite being only two scores, it's MAD. Str/Wis and Str/Dex, however, while a tiny bit MAD, is fine, as you can pick Wis or Dex as your secondary without major penalty. When you have multiple primary ability scores, you're either going to hit (aka do anything that turn) a bit less often, or have a few powers that you almost never hit with (by treating one of your primary ability scores as your secondary ability score).

I'm not saying every Hybrid build is MAD. Some combinations have the same primary ability score. Swordmage|Wizard, as one of the examples you've mentioned. There are a some combinations that work, and it seems there are a few of combinations that work in a relatively optimized game, which is something I previously hadn't known. I will still not be playing one, but it means I don't necessarily need to take pity on someone that selects a Hybrid class.

Maybe I should keep the houserule, but only for if they select a combination with differing primary ability scores... But that starts to get too complex for a houserule.

RagnaroksChosen
2010-06-08, 05:34 AM
This is almost amusing...

Step 1: Okay I play a hybrid avenger|wizard and have oath of emnity on my avenger powers.

Step 2: I Take Distant Vengeance

Distant Vengeance
Prerequisites: Avenger, oath of enmity power
Benefit: As long as you are within 10 squares of
your oath of enmity target and no other enemies are
adjacent to you, you gain the benefit of your oath of
enmity on all ranged basic attacks against your oath of
enmity target.

Step 3: I use magic missile (a ranged basic attack) and via Distant Vengeance roll twice as the feat I have selected says


Yes i understand how ever the feat doesn't remove the fact that you can only use your oath with avenger powers it just lets you use it with ranged attacks. which avengers do have.

I have read all the relevent feats and rules the feat doesn't remove the fact that you can only use it with avenger powers it just lets you use it with ranged attacks,

Meta
2010-06-08, 11:03 PM
Yes i understand how ever the feat doesn't remove the fact that you can only use your oath with avenger powers it just lets you use it with ranged attacks. which avengers do have.

I have read all the relevent feats and rules the feat doesn't remove the fact that you can only use it with avenger powers it just lets you use it with ranged attacks,

It has nothing to do with removing.
Character can only use OoE with avenger powers.
Then I take Feat. Feats Give characters advantages, whether bonuses, abilities, etc.
This feat lets me use OoE on RBAs
This feat has done what feats do, make a character better.
Thats it.
The feat says exactly what it does
avengers can't use OoE on RBAs. Until you take a feat that says you can

RagnaroksChosen
2010-06-09, 05:21 AM
It has nothing to do with removing.
Character can only use OoE with avenger powers.
Then I take Feat. Feats Give characters advantages, whether bonuses, abilities, etc.
This feat lets me use OoE on RBAs
This feat has done what feats do, make a character better.
Thats it.
The feat says exactly what it does
avengers can't use OoE on RBAs. Until you take a feat that says you can

yes it can use OoE on RBA's . Though it doesn't remove the restriction of Avenger powers, as you do have RBA's that are avenger powers that normaly don't work with oath.

such as
Avenging Shackles...


We can see that they where released in the same article. as they where supposed to synergise. If the feat it self doesn't say it removes the avenger only powers restriction which it doesn't then you can't use any other classes powers with oath,

Coidzor
2010-06-09, 05:51 AM
It has nothing to do with removing.
Character can only use OoE with avenger powers.
Then I take Feat. Feats Give characters advantages, whether bonuses, abilities, etc.
This feat lets me use OoE on RBAs
This feat has done what feats do, make a character better.
Thats it.
The feat says exactly what it does
avengers can't use OoE on RBAs. Until you take a feat that says you can

He's saying that Powers that can be used as Ranged Basic Attacks still have their source matter. It usually doesn't matter enough to come up, but since we're discussing hybrids, well, it does. He's also saying that OoE is only allowed to be used with things that are from the Avenger side of the hybrid due to the wording of the rules on hybrids or some such.

So you have to convince us that it being a ranged basic attack somehow negates the fact that it's a wizard power and thus from the wrong half of the class.

Tiki Snakes
2010-06-09, 09:19 AM
Hmm. Having checked the wording of the feat, I believe I'm going to come down on the side of Potion Sale here.

It seems pretty conclusive, for two reasons.

Firstly it does specifically word it as 'all ranged basic attacks'.
Secondly, as has been pointed out in Dev Blogs, it has always been a central tenet of 4th ed that, when in doubt, DM adjudication should fall on the side of letting the PC do fun and cool stuff.

I feel that the wording is sufficiently close to how Potion Sale believes that, following the spirit of the edition means that it should indeed work that way. He's spent a feat, and it is infact a ranged basic attack. There are perfectly valid arguments to the counter, on the issue of whether or not it should work due to the avenger power only restriction that definately exists without the feat, but I'm just not convinced that angle of arguing really fits with RAI.

After all, a ranged basic attack isn't an avenger power attack, so based on the conservative reading, the feat does nothing really.

The fact that the attack is from the wizard half doesn't really matter, because it doesn't check for that. It checks for Avenger or not avenger, so in my understanding, either the feat should do more or less what Potion believes, or so little as to be deliberately prohibitive.

To the best of my knowledge Avenging Shackles being the only ranged basic attack that is explicitely also an avenging power. If the feat was intended to only ever work with that one power, I don't believe it would be worded as it is, but rather would mention it by name.

RagnaroksChosen
2010-06-09, 10:15 AM
Hmm. Having checked the wording of the feat, I believe I'm going to come down on the side of Potion Sale here.

It seems pretty conclusive, for two reasons.

Firstly it does specifically word it as 'all ranged basic attacks'.
Secondly, as has been pointed out in Dev Blogs, it has always been a central tenet of 4th ed that, when in doubt, DM adjudication should fall on the side of letting the PC do fun and cool stuff.

I feel that the wording is sufficiently close to how Potion Sale believes that, following the spirit of the edition means that it should indeed work that way. He's spent a feat, and it is infact a ranged basic attack. There are perfectly valid arguments to the counter, on the issue of whether or not it should work due to the avenger power only restriction that definately exists without the feat, but I'm just not convinced that angle of arguing really fits with RAI.

After all, a ranged basic attack isn't an avenger power attack, so based on the conservative reading, the feat does nothing really.

The fact that the attack is from the wizard half doesn't really matter, because it doesn't check for that. It checks for Avenger or not avenger, so in my understanding, either the feat should do more or less what Potion believes, or so little as to be deliberately prohibitive.

To the best of my knowledge Avenging Shackles being the only ranged basic attack that is explicitely also an avenging power. If the feat was intended to only ever work with that one power, I don't believe it would be worded as it is, but rather would mention it by name.


Well a few things.
1. RAI be damned. I'm strictly speaking about RAW. I as a gm would probebly let my player use this with magic missle. As magic missle is a weaker RBA. (though it wouldn't realy come up as we don't use Dragon stuff any way)
2. I belive they worded it that way incase they released any more avenger RBA's. I know i would have left it open like that incase down the line i wanted to add more.
3.

The fact that the attack is from the wizard half doesn't really matter, because it doesn't check for that. It checks for Avenger or not avenger, so in my understanding, either the feat should do more or less what Potion believes, or so little as to be deliberately prohibitive.
I'm not understanding what you are getting at. From the way i read what you said it sounds like your agreeing with me. As OoE checks for if its melee and an avenger power, the feat just removes the melee part.

If eaither of you can show me an example of where ALL removes a condition unrelated to the feat at hand (such as the issue we have here) I may be more inclined to agree. It's by far not a stretch to see it the way potion is talking about it, though by RAW it wouldn't work.


Also side note. Designers and dragon mag designers are two different things from what i understand. so the intent of designers and what comes out of dragon are two different things as well.

Tiki Snakes
2010-06-09, 10:35 AM
A Melee or Ranged Basic Attack is not an Avenger power any more than a Wizard's spell is. So, if the Avenger hasn't got that one at-will power, there's no difference between a ranged basic attack and a ranged basic attack that is also a wizard power, as far as the hybrid oath wording goes.

The only question really is if you believe the feat is only ever intended to work with that one individual power.

RagnaroksChosen
2010-06-09, 10:40 AM
A Melee or Ranged Basic Attack is not an Avenger power any more than a Wizard's spell is. So, if the Avenger hasn't got that one at-will power, there's no difference between a ranged basic attack and a ranged basic attack that is also a wizard power, as far as the hybrid oath wording goes.

The only question really is if you believe the feat is only ever intended to work with that one individual power.

I disagree. A ranged basic attack with a bow is different then with shackles.
As is a ranged basic attack with eldritch strike/blast is considered a warlock power.

Which BTW oath doesn't work with Basic attacks. such as melee basic attacks in Hybrid. Which is besides the point.


Edit: The reason why i say that is because if that where not the case then things like Eldritch strike/blast would not proc Curse damage. Which it does.


Edit edit: Actualy this would work the way he was saying if he went through paragon multiclassing or a half elf dilliants choice in for an RBA. But do to the hybrid restrictions of only avenger powers it does not.

Kurald Galain
2010-06-09, 11:26 AM
The only question really is if you believe the feat is only ever intended to work with that one individual power.

That's really not an argument. There's several feats or items that simply don't do much. For instance, there's a wizard tome that is supposed to contain two wizard daily "lightning" spells of level 5 or below, but no two such spells exist. Or there's this feat that gives you a bonus to fear saving throws, and ignores the fact that monster fear powers that grant a saving throw are almost non-existent.

Yes, WOTC can and will print options that aren't any good, sometimes without noticing. Therefore it's not really helpful to argue that something must be ruled so-and-so because otherwise, feat X wouldn't be worth taking.

Tiki Snakes
2010-06-09, 11:33 AM
That's really not an argument. There's several feats or items that simply don't do much. For instance, there's a wizard tome that is supposed to contain two wizard daily "lightning" spells of level 5 or below, but no two such spells exist. Or there's this feat that gives you a bonus to fear saving throws, and ignores the fact that monster fear powers that grant a saving throw are almost non-existent.

Yes, WOTC can and will print options that aren't any good, sometimes without noticing. Therefore it's not really helpful to argue that something must be ruled so-and-so because otherwise, feat X wouldn't be worth taking.

This is a valid point, but where there is an arguably valid alternate reading that doesn't negatively affect the game in any real way, the choice seems pretty simple to me. :smallsmile:

RagnaroksChosen
2010-06-09, 12:16 PM
This is a valid point, but where there is an arguably valid alternate reading that doesn't negatively affect the game in any real way, the choice seems pretty simple to me. :smallsmile:

But that's not what we are arguing. We are saying that it doesn't work via RAW. We could talk about intentions and wether or not something affects the game negativly. Though thats not what i'm arguing.

Kurald Galain
2010-06-09, 12:42 PM
This is a valid point, but where there is an arguably valid alternate reading that doesn't negatively affect the game in any real way, the choice seems pretty simple to me. :smallsmile:

True enough. I'd say either interpretation is valid, but I wouldn't count on every DM agreeing (as this thread demonstrates).

As this was an example of a useful combo that can only be pulled off by a hybrid character - do we have more examples that might be less disputed?

Taenia
2010-06-09, 12:43 PM
So in an argument over specific versus general why do you allow one part to work and one part not too, where in the rules does it say you can choose which part to work?

The feat says your RBA get the oath. This is specific and beats the more general wording on the avenger hybrid limitation. You are choosing to limit it to only changing melee to ranged basic when the feat doesn't say that it says you gain the benefits of your oath, the reroll, with ALL ranged basic attacks.

CS has ruled several times that this works. Not always the best judge, but they have been consistent. The basic idea of specific over general is the intention of feats and this one removes not the one restriction on the power but 2, melee only and avenger only. It says it right there, ALL ranged basic attacks. It also says you get the benefits of your oath and not your oath so you are not limited by the avenger only limitation, when you attack with an RBA and the circumstances of the feat are met, you can roll twice.

Thajocoth
2010-06-09, 12:52 PM
As this was an example of a useful combo that can only be pulled off by a hybrid character - do we have more examples that might be less disputed?

There was one earlier. The ability to set up an enemy to take one sort of extra damage if they attack you, and another sort of extra damage if they don't. That was fairly convincing.

(I really think the "Hybrid Avenger Distant Vengeance" topic should be split from this one...)

Kurald Galain
2010-06-09, 12:53 PM
The feat says your RBA get the oath. This is specific and beats the more general wording on the avenger hybrid limitation. You are choosing to limit it to only changing melee to ranged basic when the feat doesn't say that it says you gain the benefits of your oath, the reroll, with ALL ranged basic attacks.
And, likewise, the hybrid limitation says you only get the oath on avenger powers. This is specific and beats the more general wording on the RBA feat. You are choosing not to limit it to only avenger powers when the feat doesn't say it overrides this restriction, and when this is consistent with the general principle that hybrids cannot use a feature of their one class to augment the powers of their other class.

In other words, yes, this issues is disputed. Asserting that either side of the dispute is obviously RAW doesn't make it any less disputed. As always, the results are up to your DM; only saying that "hybrids are cool because they let you do X" is decidedly more impressive than "hybrids are cool because a controversial interpretation of the rules may let you do X".

RagnaroksChosen
2010-06-09, 12:54 PM
So in an argument over specific versus general why do you allow one part to work and one part not too, where in the rules does it say you can choose which part to work?

The feat says your RBA get the oath. This is specific and beats the more general wording on the avenger hybrid limitation. You are choosing to limit it to only changing melee to ranged basic when the feat doesn't say that it says you gain the benefits of your oath, the reroll, with ALL ranged basic attacks.

CS has ruled several times that this works. Not always the best judge, but they have been consistent. The basic idea of specific over general is the intention of feats and this one removes not the one restriction on the power but 2, melee only and avenger only. It says it right there, ALL ranged basic attacks. It also says you get the benefits of your oath and not your oath so you are not limited by the avenger only limitation, when you attack with an RBA and the circumstances of the feat are met, you can roll twice.

Do you have any proof of the CS ruling. As i have not been able to find it any where.

Meta
2010-06-09, 01:08 PM
A Melee or Ranged Basic Attack is not an Avenger power any more than a Wizard's spell is. So, if the Avenger hasn't got that one at-will power, there's no difference between a ranged basic attack and a ranged basic attack that is also a wizard power, as far as the hybrid oath wording goes.

The only question really is if you believe the feat is only ever intended to work with that one individual power.

The first part is exactly right. Before recent errata I would have seen your point of view Ragnorak, but since the pitfighter and daggermaster errata they now dont recieve their benefits (wis damage and crit range respectively) on their basic attacks. Which is just silly but that's how its worded. A Ranged Basic Attack is a specific thing, and that's what the feat allows to be used in conjunction with OoE.

On the other hand, I don't wish to derail the thread so I submit my friends Con/Cha Paladin|Warlock as an example.

Hes lvl 13 and takes two-fold pact in paragon tier so he is a starlock/feylock and qualifies for Student of Caiphon. Although he will lack his warlock's curse (he has Paladin armor proficiency) his radiant weapon and high crits keep damage high (though admittedly a bit lower without curse).

However he also can poach the best paladin powers and keep 1 utility, 1 encounter and 1 daily of each which will give him more sanction if he wants (he's human so he has eldritch strike, eyebite, and the paladin sanction at-will that im blanking on. Valorous strike?)

Instead of curse he can use his minor actions to use divine challenge. He's in platemail and a heavy shield so quite tough.

Let's examine what he loses/gains compared to a full class.

Warlock Vs hybrid
Cons:
Loses Curse
Loses shadow-walk and some mobility
Loses Prime Shot

Pros:
Gains great armor proficiencies (makes up for shadow walk)
Gains Divine Challenge (a new also damaging use for minor actions and if coupled with eyebite a potent catch 22)
Can take any desired paladin powers in addition to warlock powers
Opens up a whole new class and power source of radiant oriented feats


Now from the other side:

Paladin versus Hybrid

Cons:
Loses 1 hp a level
Less damaging Divine Challenge (tiered 3,4,5)
Will end up with fewer encounter/daily powers that sanction (you have an at-will that does)

Pros:
Paragon Path that will give you great damage potential
More controller and damage options; becoming a dangerous target is essential for a defender to be actively targeted, and if not divine challenge and sometimes sanction will punish.
The ability to take paladin and warlock powers
A much greater ranged presence, making you a more versatile defender.

All in all, trade offs I would gladly take. I would suggest taking a feat or two to buff DC back to higher damage levels but other than that, the benefits are substantial

EDIT: I have seen the CS ruling but it's quite old as this is a largely open and shut case on the CharOp forums

Shadow_Elf
2010-06-09, 01:12 PM
tl;dr, but in case no one has mentioned it yet, the Assassin Hybrid does not the "Assassin Powers Only" caveat on spending shrouds, so Assassin|Rogue or Assassin|Sorcerer can get quite a bit more DPR that a straight Assassin, Rogue or Sorcerer. I do not know why this is true, but the Assassin|Rogue in the party I DM regularly does 45+ damage with at-wills @ level 12.

RagnaroksChosen
2010-06-09, 01:15 PM
The first part is exactly right. Before recent errata I would have seen your point of view Ragnorak, but since the pitfighter and daggermaster errata they now dont recieve their benefits (wis damage and crit range respectively) on their basic attacks. Which is just silly but that's how its worded. A Ranged Basic Attack is a specific thing, and that's what the feat allows to be used in conjunction with OoE.

On the other hand, I don't wish to derail the thread so I submit my friends Con/Cha Paladin|Warlock as an example.

Hes lvl 13 and takes two-fold pact in paragon tier so he is a starlock/feylock and qualifies for Student of Caiphon. Although he will lack his warlock's curse (he has Paladin armor proficiency) his radiant weapon and high crits keep damage high (though admittedly a bit lower without curse).

However he also can poach the best paladin powers and keep 1 utility, 1 encounter and 1 daily of each which will give him more sanction if he wants (he's human so he has eldritch strike, eyebite, and the paladin sanction at-will that im blanking on. Valorous strike?)

Instead of curse he can use his minor actions to use divine challenge. He's in platemail and a heavy shield so quite tough.

Let's examine what he loses/gains compared to a full class.

Warlock Vs hybrid
Cons:
Loses Curse
Loses shadow-walk and some mobility
Loses Prime Shot

Pros:
Gains great armor proficiencies (makes up for shadow walk)
Gains Divine Challenge (a new also damaging use for minor actions and if coupled with eyebite a potent catch 22)
Can take any desired paladin powers in addition to warlock powers
Opens up a whole new class and power source of radiant oriented feats


Now from the other side:

Paladin versus Hybrid

Cons:
Loses 1 hp a level
Less damaging Divine Challenge (tiered 3,4,5)
Will end up with fewer encounter/daily powers that sanction (you have an at-will that does)

Pros:
Paragon Path that will give you great damage potential
More controller and damage options; becoming a dangerous target is essential for a defender to be actively targeted, and if not divine challenge and sometimes sanction will punish.
The ability to take paladin and warlock powers
A much greater ranged presence, making you a more versatile defender.

All in all, trade offs I would gladly take. I would suggest taking a feat or two to buff DC back to higher damage levels but other than that, the benefits are substantial
Um how are you getting rid of Curse ability you get that as a Hybrid warlock automaticaly.

Any hybrid warlock build exemplifies my point. You can get your warlock damage from an eldritch blast/strike. so if you where to some how generate an extra attack(like through two weapon opening) you could use your eldritch strike to get your curse damage.


Actualy I'd liek to submit a

Rogue|warlock/dagger master.
Only things that matter are
Eldritch strike - @will
Two weapon fighting
Two weapon opening

Any time you crit with your dagger you get a free off hand attack which you use with eldritch strike(as it can be used as a melee basic).
This way you can get both rogue SA and Curse damage in the same round.

You would want to look at alot of the multi attack rouge powers.


Edit: potion No its not i currently have a thread going there where people are arguing about it.

Taenia
2010-06-09, 01:17 PM
http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19685882/Consolidated_Customer_Service_Answers?pg=64 post 638

The only other one i saw was in another post and i can't find it now but the one above is printed off for LFR when they get asked the question.

As for the assassin hybrid if you look at the compiled version they fixed it so you can only invoke your shrouds on assassin attacks, though you can build them up while doing other classes.

I believe Throw and Stab can do that too, a Ranger|Avenger could throw at one target getting quarry and stab another using power of skill/overwhelming strike and get the reroll on that attack.

Wait so class features are more specific than feats? So when my Killing Curse on my warlock says i should do 1d8s instead of 1d6s with my curse i should ignore it because the other one is more specific? I don't agree. Generally feats are considered more specific than class features and this is a hybrid class feature. In this case I think you have it backwards.

RagnaroksChosen
2010-06-09, 01:26 PM
http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19685882/Consolidated_Customer_Service_Answers?pg=64 post 638

The only other one i saw was in another post and i can't find it now but the one above is printed off for LFR when they get asked the question.

As for the assassin hybrid if you look at the compiled version they fixed it so you can only invoke your shrouds on assassin attacks, though you can build them up while doing other classes.

I believe Throw and Stab can do that too, a Ranger|Avenger could throw at one target getting quarry and stab another using power of skill/overwhelming strike and get the reroll on that attack

Fair enough, Though i don't like how he didn't explain why, makes me question the answer. Though i have no leg to stand on as that is a CS response. So i stand corrected.

ya to bad they changed throw and stab so that you can't throw and attack the same target.

Taenia
2010-06-09, 01:38 PM
I agree, they should have put a lot more explanation in that response. It is definitely possible they will either change the feats or address it in other ways if their intention was different but I like the idea of an Archer Avenger or Avenger|Seeker and don't think its a game breaker so I don't think its that much of a concern. Considering the OP builds that are slowly getting errata'd this seems more fun then unbalancing.

RagnaroksChosen
2010-06-09, 01:41 PM
I agree, they should have put a lot more explanation in that response. It is definitely possible they will either change the feats or address it in other ways if their intention was different but I like the idea of an Archer Avenger or Avenger|Seeker and don't think its a game breaker so I don't think its that much of a concern. Considering the OP builds that are slowly getting errata'd this seems more fun then unbalancing.

Does dragon stuff get errata'd??? We don't typicaly play with it so im not sure?

True true I could see it breaking with a avenger/seeker(mc rogue)/the increase crit range seeker pp

with two fisted shooting
Could get a bunch of attacks off. all with Avenger oath.

Taenia
2010-06-09, 01:49 PM
When they do the mass errata they include some dragon material, they mentioned some of the stuff from dragon will be in the july errata. Lately they release the dragon material, let the optimizers hash over it and when they compile the issue at the end of the month they make changes for actual release. Stuff from the original half elf article which let them do their dilettante on charges and AoOs for example was errata'd to be 1/encounter. The assassin hybrid was the same, errata'd in the compiled issue.

Easiest way to find the final version is to download the whole issue at the end of the month and read that, otherwise the feats/items/etc.. may be changed if you use it too early.

I think you mean the crimson hunter? I think that works but its still dependent on crits and as an avenger you aren't guaranteed them (RRoT maybe) just a little more likely. The fun combo is painful oath (wis mod extra damage 1/round on your oath target) and primal eye (Seeker, add dex mod to damage of RBAs) this lets the Avenger|Seeker or Avenger\Seeker get an RBA with oath plus Wis plus Dex in addition to normal damage.

Kurald Galain
2010-06-09, 02:03 PM
Generally feats are considered more specific than class features
"Are considered" by whom? Unless you meant "considered by you personally", I would like to see a citation for that, for as far as I know the rulebooks indicate nothing of the sort.

The rule is "specific trumps general", not "feats trump class features" or vice versa.

Taenia
2010-06-09, 02:36 PM
If a feat changes a class feature do you ignore it because you consider feats more general than specific?

If you look at class/race feats they often modify/change class features, by your logic none of those would work.

So based on the fact that feats often modify class features i made the simple assumption that feats are more specific than class features. I am not sure what you do when someone takes feats that modify class features and you don't allow them because you think class features are more specific than feats.

Meta
2010-06-09, 03:22 PM
Um how are you getting rid of Curse ability you get that as a Hybrid warlock automaticaly.

Any hybrid warlock build exemplifies my point. You can get your warlock damage from an eldritch blast/strike. so if you where to some how generate an extra attack(like through two weapon opening) you could use your eldritch strike to get your curse damage.


Actualy I'd liek to submit a

Rogue|warlock/dagger master.
Only things that matter are
Eldritch strike - @will
Two weapon fighting
Two weapon opening

Any time you crit with your dagger you get a free off hand attack which you use with eldritch strike(as it can be used as a melee basic).
This way you can get both rogue SA and Curse damage in the same round.

You would want to look at alot of the multi attack rouge powers.


Edit: potion No its not i currently have a thread going there where people are arguing about it.

Arguing against a CS response? And the discussion was indeed dead but good necro. Also right, hybrid curse not no curse, which makes the build even stronger