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theos911
2010-06-04, 08:33 PM
(If you saw my guard thread, this is same pc but as half-elf pally) In my campaign my friend has a unoptimized half-elf pally. He's effective in combat, but less so outside of it. At level 10 he's looking to enter sorcerer. He wants to be an evocation/blasty type. He's not becoming evil; he is still a righteous crusader, but he wants to blow stuff up with magic. I'm looking for ideas for spell choices and feats(especially which metamagic would work best for evocation). Ok playgrounders, let us see how well/if you can whip him into shape.


*btw he's planning on taking only 4 sorcerer levels before prestiging out.

imperialspectre
2010-06-04, 08:40 PM
There is no way to dip 4 levels in sorcerer starting at ECL 10 and not suck, unless your first 10 levels all advance sorcerer casting via racial HD and such. A half-elf paladin 10 is about as bad as it gets without monk, soulknife, or NPC class levels, but starting to take levels in a class that doesn't advance anything the character is already good at is just going to end in disaster.

Retrain the guy to something like Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 3, and he'll be fairly useful if he spends his spell slots on buffing himself. If he insists on casting blasting spells, retrain him to Cleric 10, give him a Karma Bead and a couple other caster level boosters, and tell him to memorize Flame Strike. He'll still be suboptimal, but at least it keeps most of the flavor and he can have defensive spells with heavy armor.

theos911
2010-06-04, 08:48 PM
I'm aware half-elf pally is suckish(It was his first character). Oddly enough his second character was a.... monk.... a drunk monk.

What I'm asking is how to make the best of his poor choice. I'm not going to slaughter him with stuff his cr should be able to handle. It's supposed to be fun, so I'll work with what he gives me. So, I'm loooking for how to get the best out of his sorcerer levels. btw i missed it early on, but his prestige classes will be advancing his arcane and diving casting(not at same time). Basically he has a choice, adv his arcane casting still in low levels while his ecl is in teens, or adv his half-casting divine casting. He's in a tight spot, but he, as I enjoy the character. I only wish to help him make the most of his arcane power, so any suggestions on spells or feats?

PId6
2010-06-04, 08:59 PM
Well, Abjurant Champion is a must. The 5th level sets his CL equal to his BAB, which is the only way to get any sort of synergy from paladin 10. The only thing I can come up with that comes close to salvaging this is:

Paladin 10/Sorcerer 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Spellsword 1/Sacred Exorcist +X, advancing arcane casting every time.

Tell him to focus on spells like Scorching Ray and Wings of Flurry, both of which have good returns from high CL (which he will have due to Abjurant Champion). Let him pick (Greater) Luminous Armor from BoED (technically sorcerers can't do that; but that's stupid) and tell him to also take Shield. Practiced Spellcaster is important since it boosts his CL (though Abjurant Champion mitigates this a bit).

theos911
2010-06-04, 09:07 PM
He is adamantly against any abjurant champ. I mentioned it as a good way to quickly help his spells, and also as about the linch point for almost every gish build ever. Idk what's wrong with him, but i guess since it has abjurant he thinks it doesn't fit his evocation build. Although honestly, I would like to see him not use it, not because I have some dislike of it, but because it is kinda in conflict with his plans. His build is break,bust, and blow up-- not boost,buff, and bunker down. Sorry to be nitpicky about it, but thanks so far.

PId6
2010-06-04, 09:15 PM
Well, without Abjurant Champion 5, I can't imagine how he can actually deal even mediocre damage via spells. Practiced Spellcaster, Scorching Ray, Wings of Flurry if he actually gets that high, to make the best of a terrible situation. You're going to have to scale back combat a lot. 8/10 of the paladin levels are doing pretty much nothing for him that warrior levels can't do almost as well.

theos911
2010-06-04, 09:16 PM
He plans to become a Fist of Raziel, so those paladin levels are giving extra smites that FoR is going to superman-ify

PId6
2010-06-04, 09:28 PM
He plans to become a Fist of Raziel, so those paladin levels are giving extra smites that FoR is going to superman-ify
That's actually a decent paladin PrC. I just don't see why he wants to take sorcerer levels. If he wants to blow stuff up, tell him to buy an Amulet of Fireballs. Going into a full casting class now, much less with the intention of blasting, is beyond underpowered; I really do find it difficult imagining a better way to weaken myself besides taking truenamer in place of sorcerer.

Hand_of_Vecna
2010-06-05, 11:38 AM
If he has to blow things up how about swordsage 1. With 3rd level mauners you've got. . .

Burning Blade-+1d6+6 fire damage to all your attacks for the round
Burning Brand-gain +5ft reach during your turn and do fire instead of normal damage.
Deathmark-do aoe fire 6d6 centered on a foe you drop.
fire riposte-immeadiate action 4d6 fire damage to someone who hits you.
Holocaust Cloak(stance)-5 fire damage to any adjacent foe that hits you in mellee.

Then give him a reflavored Ruby Knight Vindicator as per the adaption section of RKV that works for his god and uses desertwind as it's required school and one of it's two granted schools.

Kylarra
2010-06-05, 11:49 AM
I'll second the idea of just using swordsage rather than trying to haphazardly add sorcerer levels to the mix. Adapted RKV is a good one too.

mint
2010-06-05, 01:34 PM
I remember skimming through a forgotten realms book, probably champions of valor. It had a bunch of ACFs for paladins. I think one of them did something to the effect of letting the paladin fill paladin slots with any arcane (wizard?) spells known. Maybe you could do something with that. Sorry I can't remember any more details.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-06-05, 02:01 PM
Sword of the Arcane Order IIRC

lsfreak
2010-06-05, 02:09 PM
Yep. Get him Sword of the Arcane Order, from Champions of Valor, and drop sorcerer. It'll be a lot more worthwhile in the long run. Biggest problem is that it's keyed off Int, which is the only stat you *don't* need to be good in combat for a paladin.

Alternatively, point him to refluffing and building a cleric in a specific way (there's another thread or two going on this right now). He gets things like Flame Strike and Firestorm that are good blast spells. But it sounds like that won't work.

Keld Denar
2010-06-05, 02:37 PM
Basically, what everyone has said is that there are some pretty decent ways for him to do what he wants to do, and there are some ways that I can almost garuntee he'll regret once he sees how bad they are. Sure, Abjurant Champion has some abilities that affect abjurations, but the MOST important 3 abilities (full BAB, full CL, and the 5th level ability that sets your CL equal to your BAB) are great for ANY caster. If the name bugs him, just call it Sorcerous Champion or something and be done with it. Its one of the few classes that will streamline the 2 things he wants to do in a way that isn't gonna feel completely weak. Heck, he's never gonna be able to overcome the SR that a fair number of undead and outsiders have above level 10 (unless he uses Conjourations to blast, like Lesser Orb of Fire) and hes not even really gonna get any decent nukes until ECL 16 to 18, depending.

The problem is that if you don't tie things together, you end up being as effective as a 10th level Paladin or a 4th level Sorcerer (since you only have enough actions to do one at a time) when everyone is as effective as a 14th level whatever. The 4th level blaster Sorcerer isn't gonna be able to kill anything with his spells, and the defocus from Paladin keeps you from fulling bringing the Paladin abilities to bear. Also, without higher level Sorcerer spells, metamagic is gonna be worthless to you, as you won't even have high enough slots to cast GOOD blasts, much less add metamagic to those good blasts.

Fist of Raz also only progresses Divine Spellcasting classes, so if the player is intent on going into Fist of Raz, his Sorcerous spellcasting is going to be truncated depressingly short.

If the DM allows rebuilding, a standard Sorcadin build is:

Paladin2/Sorcerer4/Spellsword1/AbjChamp5/SacEx8

Which, at ECL 10 would have the casting of an 8th level Sorcerer (4th level spells) and fight about as well as an 8th level Sorcerer, especially if you cast a buff spell or two before mixing it up in melee. Get a good blasty spell and use it as your ranged attack (or better yet, get Whirling Blade, so you can use your melee prowass as a ranged blasty effect). Get a Spellstoring Weapon so you can store a good low level blasty effect (like a Lesser Orb or Vampyric Touch) and deliver it through your melee attack for added synergy. Get Arcane Strike so you can channel your spells into mini arcane blasts of energy every time you strike someone.

There are good ways to do what your friend wants, and there are REALLY bad ways. Help him see this.

Pluto
2010-06-05, 02:44 PM
What I'd do:
Scribble out a PrC with Sorcerer spell advancement, armored casting, channeling, decent HP, 2 good saves, full BA, Caster Level=class level+10. Give it some abilities synergistic with the Paladin (maybe spend Turn Undead attempts as a swift action for 1-round melee boosts like +Cha to attack for a round, speed bonuses, flight, energy resistance, &c). Apply familiar-like abilities to the guy's mount.

Tack on BA +10 and Turn Undead prerequisites, and you shouldn't have any problems, provided that the rest of the party is made of characters with more coherent builds. (I mean, it might look impressive, but at level 20, he'll be using Cone of Cold next to the Wizard's Maw of Chaos.)

Or just give a Feat to cast Sorcerer spells from Paladin slots at CL=class level. Use the Hexblade/Spellthief Spells Known progression and it shouldn't have any problems.

edit:
Out of the printed rules, this guy is pretty much SOL. You might adapt Abjurant Champion to focus on Evocations (add the class level to damage instead of AC, auto-enlarge and auto-quicken Evocations spells instead of Extending and quickening Abjurations).

And without changing anything? Arcanamach might work. But good choices are slim.

Prodan
2010-06-05, 02:49 PM
Could steer him towards Suel Arcanamach.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-06-05, 02:51 PM
Could steer him towards Suel Arcanamach.

I would say +1 to this but IIRC Suel Arcanamach don't have access to either evocation or conjuration, so that may put a damper on his blasting ideas

Prodan
2010-06-05, 02:54 PM
What does it have access to?

arguskos
2010-06-05, 02:55 PM
What does it have access to?
Abjuration, Divination, Illusion, and Transmutation.

Prodan
2010-06-05, 02:57 PM
Abjuration, Divination, Illusion, and Transmutation.

I think I might be able to find a blasting Transmutation spell or two.

So far:
Belker Claws, Sor/Wiz 2, SpC

Yeah, not good for blasting.

Kylarra
2010-06-05, 03:13 PM
Alternatively respec as a duskblade completely. You lose your paladin abilities, but get your blast-gish on.

theos911
2010-06-05, 10:15 PM
ok, several things

- I am the DM, and while a rebuild is not something i forbid, I discourage it.
- He has his master plan that takes him WAY into epic, it is follows

Pall10, sorcerer 4, spellsword 10 and Fist of raziel 10, he will be alternating off each lvl for spellsword and FoR. **Note I use a homebrewed spellsword** then he was going to finish with vassal of bahamut 10, and then eldritch knight or something like that.

I've tried to explain to him that at lvl 54 your divine casting will be lvl 19(llvl 19 HALF CASTING THAT IS), and your arcane will be 13, plus some little bit of half casting from vassal of bahamut that wont matter anyway.

Thanks for your help, and I'll see if I can change his mind.

**my homebrew spellsword has 9/10 cl progression, but gets all of it's abilities about a lvl later.**

checked sword of the arcane order, it's for azuth and mystra followers only, he is a Bahamut follower...

theos911
2010-06-05, 10:37 PM
IDEA!!!
I think I'll just design a Bahamut version of sword of the arcane order. It will do sorcerer casting since Bahamut is a dragon, and to enter you must be a vassal of Bahamut. DONE!!!

Spark of Bahamut's Grace

Prerequisites- Paladin of Bahamut 5, or a Vassal of Bahamut

Benefit- You can use your paladin spell slots to cast sorcerer spells. You must have a minimum charisma of 10 + the spell's level to cast it, and the save DC of the spell is equal to 10 + your cha modifier. These spells can be taken from the sorcerer spell list. To learn a spell from the sorcerer list, you must train with a cleric or Bahamut in a temple to the Platinum Dragon. You must spend one day in training for each spell you wish to learn. You know sorcerer spells as if your sorcerer level was equal to your caster level. Irregardless of caster level, you may not know any spells higher than level 4 by virtue of this feat. You may continue to use your paladin slots for divine spells as well as arcane spells without penalty. Through your devotion to the platinum dragon, you have learned to cast spells freely in armor, as the dragon himself casts freely in his armor. You do not suffer an arcane spell failure chance when casting sorcerer spells using your paladin slots.

Ok so that just eliminated his need for spellsword completely, his FoR now advances his sorcerer spells by virtue of advancing his divine casting.

So, now he keeps his full BAB to 20, and loses 1 caster lvl, and is thus 1 lvl behind in getting epic divine casting. He just went from suck to SOAR!!!

Now, I need 2 things

-Anyway to increase paladin spells per day
-Anyway to allow the paladin higher than 4th. level spells

Hand_of_Vecna
2010-06-05, 11:53 PM
That would be better than splashing sorceror, but still CL 7 4th lvl evocation spells aren't a big threat at ECL 14. Might be okay with practiced spellcaster and serenity (that's the name of the cha to paladin spells feat right)?

Did you run my swordsage idea past him? A desert wind/RKV varient is very easy to imagine for Bahamut.

If your ok with a little rebuilding let him use the harmonious knight varient http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/champions_of_valor.zip so he has bardic music and let him qualify for sublime chord via your homebrew feat. He'll be pretty sweet at level 20 with 9th lvl spells, BAB 15 and 10th level pally abilities. There's room for improvment too if he takes another PrC to advance sublime chord casting.

Keld Denar
2010-06-06, 12:09 AM
Serenity transfers all of your Cha based abilities to Wis, rather than your Wis based casting to Cha.

tiercel
2010-06-06, 05:22 AM
Another approach would be finding a way/class/Prc/feat/in-game reason to allow UMD as a class skill. (He could go straight cross-class, but that would be... even more tedious, especially as he's not likely to have that many skill points as it is.)

With a decent charisma mod and some ranks in UMD (possibly with an item to help out -- if nothing else a circlet of persuasion always pleases), your paladin could grab a staff of some sort and have some magical backup to his classic pally smiting etc.

theos911
2010-06-06, 05:57 AM
**Will post more later after looking at some ideas**

He is currently pally 6, not 10 yet.

**Oh and btw I've got "all" the books except:
Errotic Fantasy
Enemies and Allies
Dungeon Survival Guide

"all" meaning everyone on the wikipedia list at least, I'm slowly working on nabbing the Forgotten realms ones, but I've already gotten champions of valor.

Thank you for your input, but harmonious knight is Milil patron only thing, and the spark of Bahamut I just made is a bahamut thing... see the problem?

I suppose my spark of Bahamut could give UMD as a class skill, it would fit. Though, UMD isn't what he's looking for; He's looking for shooting fire from his face. The whole Spark of Bahamut thing will get his attention. Still looking into swordsage...

Ok desert wind does not fit him, he is a greatsword charger, so stone dragon fits him best.

I just started reading ToB, so I'm not an expert, but it seems he wouldn't get those 3rd. level maneuvers you mentioned until level 5 swordsage. Now that I have read swordsage and some maneuvers, I've made 2 conclusions. ToB is awesome! and while swordsage is also awesome, I think my Spark of Bahamut better accomplishes what he wanted.

I'm still looking for ways to increase pally spells per day or increase their overall level of spells known, since theirs cap at lvl 4.

theos911
2010-06-06, 07:40 AM
Alright here's how he'll get bardic music for sublime chord-

Chorus of the Heavens

Prerequisites: Alignment- Good, Perform(Any)-10, Listen-5, Must be able to cast Zone of truth

Benefit- Some individuals gain the ability to influence others with music through innate talent or study; You have learned to master music by virtue of your divine grace and ability to purify fact from fiction into a beautiful harmony. You are treated as having the bardic music ability; your effective bard level is equal to one-half of your total level in your divine spellcasting class. Example - A 10th. level Paladin has an effective bard level of 5 for measuring all bardic music effects. This paladin could use: Countersong, Fascinate, or Inspire Courage up to a maximum of 5 times per day. Upon reaching Paladin level 11th. the paladin does not gain any new bardic music abilities or uses.Upon reaching Paladin level 12, the Paladin's effective bard level becomes 6. He may now use Suggestion and his uses per day increase from 5 to 6.

**I'm, going to post my 2 feats in the homebrew section**

Godskook
2010-06-06, 07:55 AM
He is adamantly against any abjurant champ. I mentioned it as a good way to quickly help his spells, and also as about the linch point for almost every gish build ever. Idk what's wrong with him, but i guess since it has abjurant he thinks it doesn't fit his evocation build. Although honestly, I would like to see him not use it, not because I have some dislike of it, but because it is kinda in conflict with his plans. His build is break,bust, and blow up-- not boost,buff, and bunker down. Sorry to be nitpicky about it, but thanks so far.

You seem to be confused as to what Abjurant Champion offers. It offers:

1.The ability to not die. Every character needs this. This ability comes in several forms.
1a.Incredibly good HD for a caster prestige class. d10s are phenomenal, and that alone should be really, really appreciated.
1b.Really good AC, at no gp cost. Seriously, he can stop wearing armor now, and still do better than he most likely was in the armor. Arcane Preperation + Greater Luminous Armor + Shield = more AC than he's seeing now.
2.THe ability to cast what spells he can, well. This is another side of #1b. GLA + Shield means no Arcane Spell Failure. Which in turn means he can cast these spells from the front line, knowing they'll at least go through. This is not school specific, and works equally well with evocation as it does with abjuration.
3.The ability to hit things with your sword better through better BAB than you'll find in 90% of caster prestige classes.
4.The ability to not be laughed at by every dispel/counterspell wizard in the school.

So, to sum up, what it offers is:
1.Not dying.
2.Avoid ASF so spells(including evocations!) work
3.Hit things better with sword
4.Not get shut down by default by any caster build focused on dispel magic

These are all things that an Evoker Paladin would want. Especially when they're realizing this really, really late in their build.

mint
2010-06-06, 08:47 AM
I think the spark of Bahamut homebrew thingy is the way to go.
At some point, maybe it becomes more reasonable to have him rebuild rather than changing and adding rules to fit a flawed concept.

If you want to play nice, you could rule that the arcane spells count as paladin spells. That way he can blast with swift actions if he has battle blessings from CC.

theos911
2010-06-06, 12:27 PM
At some point, maybe it becomes more reasonable to have him rebuild rather than changing and adding rules to fit a flawed concept.

His concept is not flawed, but how he originally planned to do it WAS!

Hand_of_Vecna
2010-06-06, 04:17 PM
I was aware of the diety conflict I figured since you were considering homebrewing anyway that wouldn't be a issue for you.

Ah, I see you're not familiar with ToB. Let me explain, you add half your level in non-initiator classes to your Initaitor level which determines what level of manuvers you can select so; 10 Pally/2 = 5 + 1 Swordsage equals effective Swordsage level of 6 giving you third level manuvers. This is explained on page 39.

As for the weapon selection there is very little sinergy between a school's favored weapons and it's manuvers. Desertwind does slightly favor TWF because it's heavy on boosts but, it's still quite useful. As long takes 1 stonedragon manuver he can get free weapon focus in a greatsword, great axe, heavy mace, and unarmed strike.

Let me know if you have anymore questions about ToB.

theos911
2010-06-06, 04:21 PM
Alright this is how he/I decided to do it. He took spark of Bahamut's Grace. Now for level 6-10 he is advancing in Evocant Champion. it's loosely based on Adjr Champ.

ENTRY REQUIREMENTS
Base Attack Bonus: +5.
Spellcasting: Must be able to cast 1st-level arcane spells,
including at least one evocation spell.
Special: Must be proficient with at least one martial weapon.

5/5 BAB progression, One good save-Will(as abjr champ is), 5/5 caster progression
1-Swift Evocation
2-Enhanced Evocation I
3-Arcane Boost
4-Enhanced Evocation II
5- Martial Arcanist

Spellcasting:
Spellcasting: At each level, you gain new spells per day and an increase in caster level (and spells known, if applicable) as if you had also gained a level in an arcane spellcasting class to which you belonged before adding the prestige class level. You do not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. If you had more than one arcane spellcasting class before becoming an Evocant Champion, you must decide to which class to add each level for the purpose of determining spells per day, caster level, and spells known.

Swift Evocation
Swift Evocation (Su): Beginning at 1st. level, you can cast evocation spells as a swift action, as if you had applied the Quicken Spell feat to them (but without any change in level). The maximum level of spell you can quicken in this way is equal to 1/2 your class level (rounded up).

Enhanced Evocation
Enhanced Evocation (Su): You depend on your evocation spells be able to get the job done. At level 3 and level 5 you may gain one of these abilities. You may use these abilites a combined number of 3 times per day.

•Enlarged Evocation- You may cast any evocation spell as though it had been enhanced by the Enlarge Spell Feat.

•Widened Evocation- You may cast any evocation spell as though it had been enhanced with the Widen Spell Feat.

Enchanced Evocation (Su): You depend on your evocation spells be able to get the job done. Each ability has a pool of uses each day. Using one enhancement costs one use. Using two enhancements on the same spell uses two uses from one enhancement's pool and one from the other. Using three enhancements on one spell uses three uses from one enhancement and two from the second and one from the last. You may not use more than three enhancements on the same spell. The caster may choose which Enhancment to consider the 1st. 2nd. and 3rd. for purposes of use uses. Enhancing a spell does not alter a spell's casting time.

•Enlarged Evocation- You may cast any evocation spell as though it had been enchanced by the Enlarge Spell Feat.3/day

•Widened Evocation- You may cast any evocation spell as though it had been enchanced with the Widen Spell Feat.3/day

•Empowered Evocation- You may cast any evocation spell as though it had been enchanced with the Empower Spell Feat.3/day

•Maximised Evocation- You may cast any evocation spell as though it had been enchanced with the Maximize Spell Feat.2/day

Uses Used from:
1st. Enhancement 2nd. Enhancment. 3rd. Enhancement

When using 1 Enhancement 1 - -

When using 2 Enhancements 2 1 -

When using 3 Enhancements 3 2 1

Arcane Boost
Arcane Boost (Su): Beginning at 3rd. level, you gain the ability to burn arcane energy to empower your martial or physical abilities. As a swift action, you can spend one of your uncast spells or spell slots to grant yourself one of the following insight bonuses for 1 round.

• Bonus on attack rolls equal to the spell's level.
• Bonus on weapon damage rolls equal to twice the spell's level.
• Bonus to movement speed for 5ft./spell lvl to a maximum of a 20 foot bonus.

As an immediate action you may

•Subtract 10 feet from falling damage per 2 levels of spell used. This bonus expires immediately after use.

Martial Arcanist
Martial Arcanist (Ex): At 5th level, you master the art of combining your militant and mystical training. From this point on, your caster level in a chosen arcane spellcasting class is equal to your base attack bonus (unless it would otherwise be higher). For example, a 7th-level fighter/1st-level wizard/5th-level Evocant Champion has a base attack bonus of +12 (and thus a caster level of 12th). You can apply this benefit to only one arcane class to which you have added spellcasting levels by your advancement as an Evocant champion.

Alright, the spellcasting is untouched. Swift Abjuration became Swift Evocation; Easy conversion. Enhanced Evocation required some thought. Basically Abjurant Armor is **like** using empower on your abjurations, but stronger yet, and it goes on every spell cast. Extended Abjuration is Extend spell for free on every abjuration cast. The two main non-empower/maximize metamagics for evocation are widen and enlarge, so these may be used for free 3 times per day. I think it's rather balanced there. Arcane boost is almost same, removed the protection feel effects and replaced with a speed enhancer and a fall slower. I think it's a good trade off. Martial Arcanist is unchanged. Opinions everyone?

theos911
2010-06-06, 04:30 PM
No, I'm not familiar with ToB, but based on what I've saw; I LIKE IT!

PId6
2010-06-06, 04:43 PM
Alright, the spellcasting is untouched. Swift Abjuration became Swift Evocation; Easy conversion. Enhanced Evocation required some thought. Basically Abjurant Armor is **like** using empower on your abjurations, but stronger yet, and it goes on every spell cast. Extended Abjuration is Extend spell for free on every abjuration cast. The two main non-empower/maximize metamagics for evocation are widen and enlarge, so these may be used for free 3 times per day. I think it's rather balanced there. Arcane boost is almost same, removed the protection feel effects and replaced with a speed enhancer and a fall slower. I think it's a good trade off. Martial Arcanist is unchanged. Opinions everyone?
Swift Evocation: Good, balanced trade-off. Swift abjuration spells are generally better, but that's balanced by the fact that you can use this on metamagic'd lower-level spells (Empowered Scorching Ray still counts as a 2nd level spell, for example). Tell him to take Rapid Metamagic as soon as he can so he can use this with metamagic'd spells.

Enhanced Evocation: Far worse than the original ability. Widen has some uses, but overall these aren't really helpful, especially with the 3/day limit. Something more comparable would be the War Mage's ability (Age of Mortals PrC), which adds +X damage to spells per dice of damage that spell deals (+1 at 1st level, +2 at 3rd, +3 at 5th). So a 3rd level War Mage with an 8d6 Fireball would deal 16 extra damage with it. You can do something similar here, with +1 extra damage per dice at 2nd level and +2 extra damage per dice at 4th level. This may sound powerful, but really, with 10 levels wasted on paladin, he's going to need all the help he can get.

Arcane Boost: The fall slowing doesn't really do anything, but the original ability was never that great anyway (Arcane Strike is almost strictly better) so meh, doesn't really matter.

Just some thoughts on these.

theos911
2010-06-06, 07:02 PM
Enhanced Evocation: Far worse than the original ability. Widen has some uses, but overall these aren't really helpful, especially with the 3/day limit. Something more comparable would be the War Mage's ability (Age of Mortals PrC), which adds +X damage to spells per dice of damage that spell deals (+1 at 1st level, +2 at 3rd, +3 at 5th). So a 3rd level War Mage with an 8d6 Fireball would deal 16 extra damage with it. You can do something similar here, with +1 extra damage per dice at 2nd level and +2 extra damage per dice at 4th level. This may sound powerful, but really, with 10 levels wasted on paladin, he's going to need all the help he can get.


Ok what do you recommend, more uses per day, or changing the metamagic feat it replicates(or both)?


Arcane Boost: The fall slowing doesn't really do anything, but the original ability was never that great anyway (Arcane Strike is almost strictly better) so meh, doesn't really matter.


He has a habit of falling into holes... a lot!

And btw he planned to go pally 10, but he is only pally 5 he has decided to take evocant champ for lvl6-10

PId6
2010-06-06, 07:31 PM
Ok what do you recommend, more uses per day, or changing the metamagic feat it replicates(or both)?
If you don't want to go with extra damage per dice, alternatively you can do Sudden Empower 3/day at 2nd level, and Sudden Maximize 3/day at 4th level, possibly limiting it so you can't use both on the same spell (but having separate pools of uses rather than cumulative 3/day).


He has a habit of falling into holes... a lot!
Ring of Feather Fall - worth every last gp.


And btw he planned to go pally 10, but he is only pally 5 he has decided to take evocant champ for lvl6-10
Well that's... significantly better.

theos911
2010-06-06, 07:56 PM
If you don't want to go with extra damage per dice, alternatively you can do Sudden Empower 3/day at 2nd level, and Sudden Maximize 3/day at 4th level, possibly limiting it so you can't use both on the same spell (but having separate pools of uses rather than cumulative 3/day).
I've got an idea... See below(When I post it)

Enhanced Evocation
Enhanced Evocation (Su): You depend on your evocation spells be able to get the job done. At level 3 and level 5 you may gain one of these abilities. You may use these abilites a combined number of 3 times per day.

•Enlarged Evocation- You may cast any evocation spell as though it had been enhanced by the Enlarge Spell Feat.

•Widened Evocation- You may cast any evocation spell as though it had been enhanced with the Widen Spell Feat.

Enchanced Evocation (Su): You depend on your evocation spells be able to get the job done. Each ability has a pool of uses each day. Using one enhancement costs one use. Using two enhancements on the same spell uses two uses from one enhancement's pool and one from the other. Using three enhancements on one spell uses three uses from one enhancement and two from the second and one from the last. You may not use more than three enhancements on the same spell. The caster may choose which Enhancment to consider the 1st. 2nd. and 3rd. for purposes of use uses. Enhancing a spell does not alter a spell's casting time.

•Enlarged Evocation- You may cast any evocation spell as though it had been enchanced by the Enlarge Spell Feat.3/day

•Widened Evocation- You may cast any evocation spell as though it had been enchanced with the Widen Spell Feat.3/day

•Empowered Evocation- You may cast any evocation spell as though it had been enchanced with the Empower Spell Feat.3/day

•Maximised Evocation- You may cast any evocation spell as though it had been enchanced with the Maximize Spell Feat.2/day

Uses Used from:
1st. Enhancement 2nd. Enhancment. 3rd. Enhancement

When using 1 Enhancement 1 - -

When using 2 Enhancements 2 1 -

When using 3 Enhancements 3 2 1


Ring of Feather Fall - worth every last gp.
Yes, I'll recommend that to him... no UMD check right?



Well that's... significantly better.
Yes, it is. When I post my Edgeblade PrC it will get his casting to 9th. level.

PId6
2010-06-06, 08:01 PM
Yes, I'll recommend that to him... no UMD check right?
Nope, no UMD check, or else Wand of Feather Fall would be far superior.

theos911
2010-06-06, 08:13 PM
Please look above at new Enhanced Evocation.

*New Opinion?*

PId6
2010-06-06, 08:30 PM
Please look above at new Enhanced Evocation.

*New Opinion?*
Well, it's certainly much more useful, if a bit complex. I'd never actually use three enhancements on one spell with the sheer inefficiency of it, but having that as an option is better than not, so no real problem there. Seems good overall.

theos911
2010-06-06, 08:36 PM
Well the idea was to be able to use it a lot, if you needed two on one it's a bit harsh, but still worth it. If you needed three on one, it's there, but the moment you abuse it, it cripples you.:smallbiggrin: I'll post edgeblade tomorrow. Btw why isn't my sig showing, I have show sig enabled.

theos911
2010-06-07, 02:28 PM
Alright now for Edgeblade... it allows Paladins or rangers whose spellcasting only goes to level 4 to get spells to 9th. This will get his casting to progress after Evocant champ.


ENTRY REQUIREMENTS:
Base Attack Bonus: +5
Feat: One metamagic, and one from the fighter bonus feat list.
Special:Proficiency with all simple and martial weapons.

Full BAB, good save-will

Spells per day 5-9 (Sorry if its confusing)
1 - 1 - - - -
2 - 2 - - - -
3 - 2 1 - - -
4 - 3 2 - - -
5 - 3 2 1 - -
6 - 3 3 2 - -
7 - 3 3 2 1 -
8 - 3 3 2 2 -
9 - 3 3 3 2 1
10 - 3 3 3 3 2

Spells per day: (WOW Transposing a table like that takes FOREVER)

01- 0 - - - - - - - -
02- 1 0 - - - - - - -
03- 2 1 - - - - - - -
04- 2 2 0 - - - - - -
05- 3 2 1 0 - - - - -
06- 3 3 2 1 - - - - -
07- 3 3 2 2 0 - - - -
08- 4 3 3 2 1 0 - - -
09- 4 4 3 3 2 1 - - -
10- 4 4 3 3 2 2 0 - -
11- 4 4 4 3 3 2 1 0 -
12- 5 4 4 4 3 3 2 1 -
13- 5 5 4 4 3 3 2 2 0
14- 5 5 4 4 4 3 3 2 1
15- 5 5 5 4 4 4 3 3 2

Spells Known: (Yup still takes forever)

01- 2 - - - - - - - -
02- 2 1 - - - - - - -
03- 3 2 - - - - - - -
04- 3 2 1 - - - - - -
05- 3 3 2 1 - - - - -
06- 4 3 2 2 - - - - -
07- 4 3 3 2 1 - - - -
08- 4 4 3 2 2 1 - - -
09- 4 4 3 3 2 2 - - -
10- 4 4 4 3 2 2 1 - -
11- 4 4 4 3 3 2 1 1 -
12- 4 4 4 3 3 3 2 1 -
13- 4 4 4 3 3 3 2 2 1
14- 4 4 4 3 3 3 2 2 1
15- 4 4 4 3 3 3 2 2 2

Spellcasting:
Spellcasting: An Edgeblade has the ability to cast a small number of arcane spells. To cast an Edgeblade spell, a character must have a Charisma score of at least 10 + the spell’s level, so if she has a Charisma of 10 or lower, she cannot cast any Edgeblade spells. Bonus spells are based on Charisma, and saving throws against these spells have a DC of 10 + spell level + the Edgeblade’s Cha modifier. An Edgeblade can choose spells from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. An Edgeblade’s caster level for both her Edgeblade spells and the spells she gains from other arcane spellcasting classes is determined by adding her Edgeblade level to her level in another arcane spellcasting class. An Edgeblade prepares and casts spells just as a sorcerer does, including the ability to replace a known Edgeblade spell with a new spell at every even-numbered class level beginning at 4th.

Spells Known: An Edgeblade knows sorcerer spells, in accordance to table:Edgeblade Spells Known.

taltamir
2010-06-07, 03:03 PM
retrain him as a cleric with domains that give blasty spells. First, sorcerers are born, not trained... Second, arcane magic is quite a shift... and not suitable for his character's design... Third, as mentioned before he will utterly suck at it and will be unable to blast anything.
there is plenty of blasting to be done on the divine side...

Explain the retraining in game that he is focusing more on the magic aspect of paladin and neglecting his martial training.

A level 10 paladin has a BAB of 10. clerics give a BAB of 0.75 a level.
If each of the next levels he takes cleric and "trades" 3 levels of paladin for 3 levels of cleric he would maintain his BAB10, while gaining awesome magical might.

Level 10: Paladin 10 (BAB 10)
Level 11: Paladin 7/Cleric 4 (BAB 10)
Level 12: Paladin 4/Cleric 8 (BAB 10)
Level 13: Paladin 1/Cleric 12 (BAB 10)
Level 14: Cleric 14 (BAB 10)
Or he could maintain a mix of cleric and paladin and go with a PrC that is build for dual advancement of those two (bad idea).

As a cleric he doesn't have to leave the paladin order, he can still call himself a paladin... he is just a paladin who is a little less martially inclined and a little more focused on the divine magic granted by their deity.

PId6
2010-06-07, 03:56 PM
Alright now for Edgeblade... it allows Paladins or rangers whose spellcasting only goes to level 4 to get spells to 9th. This will get his casting to progress after Evocant champ.
It's a nice idea, but unfortunately Sublime Chord for paladin doesn't really work all that well when paladin spells progress so slowly. A Paladin 5/Evocant Champion 5/Edgeblade 10 won't have any 3rd or 4th level slots, for example, and would have a single 1st and a single 2nd level slot. That can be a bit weird and more than a little impractical.

A spellcasting progression like that of Divine Crusader seems more in order here. If you start at 6th level, you'd pretty much just replace paladin spellcasting with that of the Edgeblade's spellcasting, rather than stacking on something two spell levels later. You can then use Evocant Champion to advance Edgeblade spellcasting instead, and maybe extend Edgeblade to 15 levels.

For example, the spell progression can look like this:

{table=head]Level|
1st|
2nd|
3rd|
4th|
5th|
6th|
7th|
8th|
9th

1|
0|
-|
-|
-|
-|
-|
-|
-|
-

2|
1|
0|
-|
-|
-|
-|
-|
-|
-

3|
2|
1|
-|
-|
-|
-|
-|
-|
-

4|
2|
2|
0|
-|
-|
-|
-|
-|
-

5|
3|
2|
1|
0|
-|
-|
-|
-|
-

6|
3|
3|
2|
1|
-|
-|
-|
-|
-

7|
3|
3|
2|
2|
0|
-|
-|
-|
-

8|
4|
3|
3|
2|
1|
0|
-|
-|
-

9|
4|
4|
3|
3|
2|
1|
-|
-|
-

10|
4|
4|
3|
3|
2|
2|
0|
-|
-

11|
4|
4|
4|
3|
3|
2|
1|
0|
-

12|
5|
4|
4|
4|
3|
3|
2|
1|
-

13|
5|
5|
4|
4|
3|
3|
2|
2|
0

14|
5|
5|
4|
4|
4|
3|
3|
2|
1

15|
5|
5|
5|
4|
4|
4|
3|
3|
2

[/table]

And spells known:

{table=head]Level|
1st|
2nd|
3rd|
4th|
5th|
6th|
7th|
8th|
9th

1|
2|
-|
-|
-|
-|
-|
-|
-|
-

2|
2|
1|
-|
-|
-|
-|
-|
-|
-

3|
3|
2|
-|
-|
-|
-|
-|
-|
-

4|
3|
2|
1|
-|
-|
-|
-|
-|
-

5|
3|
3|
2|
1|
-|
-|
-|
-|
-

6|
4|
3|
2|
2|
-|
-|
-|
-|
-

7|
4|
3|
3|
2|
1|
-|
-|
-|
-

8|
4|
4|
3|
2|
2|
1|
-|
-|
-

9|
4|
4|
3|
3|
2|
2|
-|
-|
-

10|
4|
4|
4|
3|
2|
2|
1|
-|
-

11|
4|
4|
4|
3|
3|
2|
1|
1|
-

12|
4|
4|
4|
3|
3|
3|
2|
1|
-

13|
4|
4|
4|
3|
3|
3|
2|
2|
1

14|
4|
4|
4|
3|
3|
3|
2|
2|
1

15|
4|
4|
4|
3|
3|
3|
2|
2|
2

[/table]

The build would end up as:

Paladin 5/Edgeblade 1/Evocant Champion 5/Something +X

Where Something can be Edgeblade, Fist of Raziel, or anything else that advances casting. You should also allow him to select a few specific paladin/cleric spells as you deem fit. Flame Strike, for example, should fit right in.

It's... refreshing to see a DM willing to work with a player on a non-typical character concept like this.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-06-07, 05:13 PM
Dragonfire Adept would be, in every way, superior to Sorcerer. He can be a Gold heritage, and be LG, and retain all his 'holier than thou' aspect, as well as the stick up his pigu.

Then he can get Entangling Breath and battlefield control while he blasts, and he has unlimited blastiness. It's like Trogdor... only... yanno... LG.

theos911
2010-06-07, 06:51 PM
This would be a mistake on my part, I thought "Pally casting goes to level 4, so let's make it start at level 5" forgetting that he doesn't get those 4th. levels until, well almost epic. I like the 15 level thing; it streamlines it well. I was hoping to get him level nine spells before epic, but that is seeming less and less practical. However, your paladin5/edgeblade1/evocant champ5/edgeblade4, would do just that. However, I just realized, we forgot about evocant champ's setting caster level to BAB. He could advance in FoR and use the BAB for his arcane caster level, and use the actual the caster progression on his pally casting; as well as having all the awesome abilities it entails.

Zaq
2010-06-07, 10:08 PM
That's actually a decent paladin PrC. I just don't see why he wants to take sorcerer levels. If he wants to blow stuff up, tell him to buy an Amulet of Fireballs. Going into a full casting class now, much less with the intention of blasting, is beyond underpowered; I really do find it difficult imagining a better way to weaken myself besides taking truenamer in place of sorcerer.

I know a guy who once played a Ranger/Truenamer. I have no goddamn idea why. I wasn't in that game, but I don't think I had to have been.

This fellow also managed to screw up a Warblade. It's truly a marvel how bad he is at D&D.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-06-08, 07:52 AM
That's actually a decent paladin PrC. I just don't see why he wants to take sorcerer levels. If he wants to blow stuff up, tell him to buy an Amulet of Fireballs. Going into a full casting class now, much less with the intention of blasting, is beyond underpowered; I really do find it difficult imagining a better way to weaken myself besides taking truenamer in place of sorcerer.

I suddenly had an idea for a 'mad bomber' build involving sufficent stealth to get close to an opponent, Evasion to survive his insane tactic, a Necklace of Fireballs, and a UMD check to use a Burning Hands scroll on himself.

theos911
2010-06-08, 02:23 PM
I have noticed something that troubles me. When he is Paladin5/Edgeblade1/Evocant Champ 4, his caster level in Edgeblade will be 5. When he takes the 5th. level of evocant champ, and his caster level becomes=to BAB, his caster level is going to jump from 5 to 11. His spells will go from up to level 5 to up to level 8 in one level. Something there seems a bit odd. Is it supposed to work like that?

PId6
2010-06-08, 03:56 PM
I have noticed something that troubles me. When he is Paladin5/Edgeblade1/Evocant Champ 4, his caster level in Edgeblade will be 5. When he takes the 5th. level of evocant champ, and his caster level becomes=to BAB, his caster level is going to jump from 5 to 11. His spells will go from up to level 5 to up to level 8 in one level. Something there seems a bit odd. Is it supposed to work like that?
Caster level doesn't affect spell slots or spells known; it only affects the effect/duration of spells like Mage Armor (1 hour/level) and Fireball (1d6/level), as well as how easily it bypasses SR and how easily it's dispelled. Paladin 5/Edgeblade 1/Evocant Champion 5 still has the spell slots and spells known of an Edgeblade 6, and is only able to cast 4th level spells; only his caster level changes.

Jeff240sx
2010-06-08, 04:12 PM
So... he took a feat to get Sorc8 casting?

theos911
2010-06-08, 04:26 PM
So, if he went pally5/edgeblade1/evocant champ 5/edgeblade9 or full casting PrC9. He would have access to all the Edgeblade spells by epic. Once epic, he could do whatever, while his BAB slowly goes up from epic progression, taking his caster level with it. I think I understand now. Epic would be when he takes FoR for the awesome smiting bonus, or he could just go back into Paladin, but that offers little(I allow going back to pally if you aren't abusing it. I think an order would love to have a former member return after a long absence, especially if he comes back more powerful.)

theos911
2010-06-08, 04:34 PM
So... he took a feat to get Sorc8 casting?
It's sorta like sorcerer 8 casting, but max sorcerer spells per day cap at 6. This feat caps at 3 per day if used on Paladin slots. Also, to actually get the equivalent of sorc8 casting he must take Paladin to 20 or adv his casting somehow(the former being a poor choice the latter being a great choice). Compare to Sword of the Arcane order, it does the same, but with a different deity and uses wizard casting instead; meaning no limit to spells known like my feat has.

theos911
2010-06-09, 07:26 AM
That's actually a decent paladin PrC. I just don't see why he wants to take sorcerer levels. If he wants to blow stuff up, tell him to buy an Amulet of Fireballs. Going into a full casting class now, much less with the intention of blasting, is beyond underpowered; I really do find it difficult imagining a better way to weaken myself besides taking truenamer in place of sorcerer.

Little late, but realized I never explained the story part all. His mom was a half-elf with dragon heritage. His father was a straight (good)half-drow. He got his dad's human features and his mom's elven features, and is thus a half-elf with a bit of drow and dragon thrown in there. This is where his sorcerer idea came in, from the dragon blood he has, as well as his deity. However, I agree that sorcerer would of been a poor choice. Before this thread dies, I'd like to thank all who helped me working out the bugs in Evocant Champion and Edgeblade.