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View Full Version : [4e PHB/MM/DMG only] Wizard/defender multiclass



DragoonWraith
2010-06-04, 09:09 PM
Hi, I'm trying out 4e out of curiosity, and I got the idea of taking a Multiclass feat for one of the Defenders (currently favoring Paladin), taking Staff of Defense, and trying to make a sort of "different" Controller who attempts to use Marks to try to force opponents into stepping into area or zone effects they would otherwise avoid.

I only have the Player's Handbook, Monster Manual, and Dungeon Master's Guide for 4e, however, so I'm rather limited in trying this.

Does anyone have any suggestions? Currently I'm favoring Tiefling for race (their Racial Power is a nice retribution to further punish those I Mark, and the Int +2 Cha +2 seems exceedingly appropriate). I'd like to take Thunderwave but I can't seem to afford the Wisdom for it (very frustrating to me that it and Cloud of Daggers are the only Wizard Spells to reference Wisdom at all). I know this is not suboptimal and a Warlock/Paladin would probably have a much better time, but what the hell, I think this is interesting.

Anyway, suggestions welcome.

Kurald Galain
2010-06-04, 09:14 PM
Hm, your book limit is unfortunate, because the best defender MC for a wizard would be the swordmage.

Note that if you multiclass to defender, you can only mark once per encounter. This may not be what you want. I'm not quite sure how marking an enemy could force him into stepping into an area or zone; if you want to force an enemy to move, use Thunderwave. For instance, this could work with Str 8, Con 10, Dex 10, Int 18+2, Wis 14, Cha 11+2.

Even without the defender side, wizards (and in particular dwarven staff wizards) are very good at surviving in melee.

DragoonWraith
2010-06-04, 09:22 PM
Bah, but Thunderwave is so... generic. I mean, it's given as the Control Wizard suggestion, and for good reason, but it's just too obvious. I dunno, I like to do builds a little 'different' if I can.

Mando Knight
2010-06-04, 09:26 PM
The best idea I've had for a defender/Wizard is Swordmage|Wizard using its choice of Staff of Defense or Swordmage Warding for its Hybrid Talent. The former gets you a neat staff fighter-mage feel, but the latter takes less effort and basically plays like a more controller-y Swordmage.

Basic books only, though, restricts your options, and only highlights the fact that Paladins and Fighters don't make good Wizards. (and vice-versa)

CarpeGuitarrem
2010-06-04, 09:32 PM
If you wanted to use marks in tandem with area powers...that sounds more in the vein of hybrid classing, which they didn't iron out until PHB 3. Multiclassing isn't so much "Class A + Class B" (which was what it tended to be previously) as it is "Class A + a special feature of Class B". It's a diversifier...which is actually something you're looking for.

Still...hmm. If you're looking at someone to push people into your area effects...that sounds like a teammate to me, actually. :smallwink: That's what a lot of 4E is based around: working together with fellow party members. Say you have a trickster rogue who slides people around. You cast an area effect, the rogue slides enemies into it.

Mando Knight
2010-06-04, 09:36 PM
Still...hmm. If you're looking at someone to push people into your area effects...that sounds like a teammate to me, actually. :smallwink: That's what a lot of 4E is based around: working together with fellow party members. Say you have a trickster rogue who slides people around. You cast an area effect, the rogue slides enemies into it.

Besides, as a Wizard, even one with the Staff of Defense feature, staying near melee is a bad idea. Marks bring the wrong kind of attention to a Wizard: why risk setting off the mark against that Warlord or Cleric, when the wizard that's marking you is nice and squishy?

DragoonWraith
2010-06-04, 09:59 PM
Sigh. I find it frustrating that you can't really do things "differently" here. I suppose stock-standard Orbizard it is?

Lost Wanderer
2010-06-04, 10:45 PM
Sigh. I find it frustrating that you can't really do things "differently" here. I suppose stock-standard Orbizard it is?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like you're new to 4e. I say that because you talk about multiclassing to Fighter and using "marks", plural. As mentioned above, a multiclass Fighter can only mark once per combat. You can't use your marks to force enemies into areas or zones because you only have one, and the Fighter's mark-based ability doesn't even do that. The Warden and the Swordmage each have one that can pull, though.

4e classes are written for specific roles: one they focus on, and one they pull some tricks from. Wizard is very, very much a Controller, with a side of more Controller and a dash of Striker. Trying to make one into Defender doesn't work. They don't have the right kind of powers for it. The magey Defender is the Swordmage, and could do something like what you have in mind, though it would probably require hybridization.

Since you have access to neither the Swordmage nor the hybrid rules, if you really want to be a Defender, my advice is to play a different class. If you want to be "different" as a Controller you could try an Illusionist or Summoner Wizard, or an Invoker... if those weren't in Arcane Power and PHB 2.

Congratulations, you're discovered why lots of people were pissed when 4e launched: it doesn't have terribly many options in the three launch books. The later PHBs and Power splatbooks add all kinds of interesting things, but without them, if you're a Wizard, you're doing the blasty.

Sir Homeslice
2010-06-04, 10:54 PM
I've been drumming up a defender-lite Gnome Wizard that doesn't use Swordmage. Bit niche and a one trick pony, but it's got good humor value.


Sigh. I find it frustrating that you can't really do things "differently" here.
If you're limiting yourself to the PHB/MM/DMG, then yes you'll be really limited as to the options. It's why Roles and sub-roles exist as a limiter, and why having only the PHB is just lol.

Getting the later books will help this massively, or you can just buy a month or two of DDi and get basically all of 4e's crunch in the compendium/character builder. It's good stuff, I guarantee it.

Also Dragon is actually fairly balanced so that's always fun.

DragoonWraith
2010-06-04, 11:01 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like you're new to 4e.
Would have thought the "I'm trying 4e out of curiosity" would have given that away, honestly.


I say that because you talk about multiclassing to Fighter and using "marks", plural. As mentioned above, a multiclass Fighter can only mark once per combat.
Actually, I never specified Fighter. I said Defender. Paladin was actually the one I was thinking of.

Moreover, I'm aware. I meant "marks, over the course of many battles." As in, each battle, use the Mark to attempt this effect.


You can't use your marks to force enemies into areas or zones because you only have one, and the Fighter's mark-based ability doesn't even do that. The Warden and the Swordmage each have one that can pull, though.
The idea was to either get them to go into an area effect, or be punished for ignoring it.


4e classes are written for specific roles: one they focus on, and one they pull some tricks from. Wizard is very, very much a Controller, with a side of more Controller and a dash of Striker. Trying to make one into Defender doesn't work. They don't have the right kind of powers for it. The magey Defender is the Swordmage, and could do something like what you have in mind, though it would probably require hybridization.
Fair enough, ish.


Since you have access to neither the Swordmage nor the hybrid rules, if you really want to be a Defender, my advice is to play a different class. If you want to be "different" as a Controller you could try an Illusionist or Summoner Wizard, or an Invoker... if those weren't in Arcane Power and PHB 2.
Again... fair enough, ish.


Congratulations, you're discovered why lots of people were pissed when 4e launched: it doesn't have terribly many options in the three launch books. The later PHBs and Power splatbooks add all kinds of interesting things, but without them, if you're a Wizard, you're doing the blasty.
"Lacking options" is one thing, and "rail-roading" is quite another, which is kind of how I feel right now. I'll trust you about supplements and how they affect this process, and will avoid judging 4e on this alone.

But I really feel that the Multiclass system could have been fleshed out better to make it work better. Most importantly, allowing the Multiclass feats to change which ability scores things worked off of. If Soldier of the Faith said "You may use the Paladin's Divine Challenge as an Encounter power, but you may use Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma in place of Charisma for determining your damage with the Power," or something along those lines, it would open a lot of options. Yes, it might be too good to allow Wizards to use Int as the ability when that's their primary score and Cha is only the Paladin's own secondary score, but even as it is the Warlock can effectively achieve the same thing.

Draz74
2010-06-04, 11:01 PM
If it helps you feel better about taking Thunderwave, it was a very popular option when 4e was new, but is now much less generic or universal. Other Wizard At-Wills, in splatbooks, have gone a long way towards diversity.

Also, even if you're just curious about 4e and never intend to play it, getting ALL the character options to date in the Character Builder by buying a one-month subscription to DDI for $10 is a pretty impressive deal. (That's what I've done.) The only question is whether you should wait until late August to do it at this point, so you can get Dark Sun stuff and the splatbook Psionic Power included.

CarpeGuitarrem
2010-06-04, 11:42 PM
Sigh. I find it frustrating that you can't really do things "differently" here. I suppose stock-standard Orbizard it is?
Depends on how attached you are to the class names. I wouldn't see a problem with playing a Battle Cleric of Ioun, for instance, as a wizard character. Granted, that doesn't quite fit the AoEs, and it sounds like that's more what you're going for.

Actually kinda sounds like a druid or warden would fit, but that's in a later book too.

The thing about marks, though, is that they only deal with attacks, not movement. If the enemy doesn't make any attacks at all, they can move with impunity and not get punished by the mark, unless you're frontlining it as a fighter. IIRC. So you'd have to look elsewhere to force enemies into your area effects. That's why I suggested relying on teammates. They can do a lot of that work for you. 4E is not a solo game.

DragoonWraith
2010-06-05, 12:24 AM
If it helps you feel better about taking Thunderwave, it was a very popular option when 4e was new, but is now much less generic or universal. Other Wizard At-Wills, in splatbooks, have gone a long way towards diversity.
Heh, it's not a big deal; it's an interesting power, and all the more so because it's something you didn't really see in 3.5.


Also, even if you're just curious about 4e and never intend to play it, getting ALL the character options to date in the Character Builder by buying a one-month subscription to DDI for $10 is a pretty impressive deal. (That's what I've done.) The only question is whether you should wait until late August to do it at this point, so you can get Dark Sun stuff and the splatbook Psionic Power included.
The primary reason I'm trying it out is because my girlfriend has expressed interest in D&D, but I don't think she'd like 3.5's fiddliness. She's skeptical of the "roll a d20 and add some modifiers" mechanic, throwing everything 3.5 has at her is likely just to convince her that it's not her thing - which would be a shame because I think she'd enjoy roleplaying. 4e seems to help by streamlining mechanics so they're consistent, as much as that bothers me coming from 3.5. I do intend to get the DDI for myself and her at some point, but not just yet, I think. Getting Dark Sun and Psionic Power also seems like something I'd like... I really like the Dark Sun setting and Psionics are cool.


Depends on how attached you are to the class names. I wouldn't see a problem with playing a Battle Cleric of Ioun, for instance, as a wizard character. Granted, that doesn't quite fit the AoEs, and it sounds like that's more what you're going for.
Actually, no, I really was going pretty much for AoEs. I really do want to play the Wizard. I just wanted to add something unique to it with the Mark thing.


Actually kinda sounds like a druid or warden would fit, but that's in a later book too.
Yeah.


The thing about marks, though, is that they only deal with attacks, not movement. If the enemy doesn't make any attacks at all, they can move with impunity and not get punished by the mark, unless you're frontlining it as a fighter. IIRC. So you'd have to look elsewhere to force enemies into your area effects. That's why I suggested relying on teammates. They can do a lot of that work for you. 4E is not a solo game.
Not trying to make it a solo game. Really, all I wanted was to add something "different" this character could do that a normal Wizard couldn't.

Kurald Galain
2010-06-05, 04:59 AM
Sigh. I find it frustrating that you can't really do things "differently" here. I suppose stock-standard Orbizard it is?

Well, the thing is that if you want your character to force enemies into zones, marks don't actually do that. A melee wizard is very viable, though. If you don't want to be stock-standard, there are several good wizard powers that people tend to overlook; Jump being a good example.

In PHB1, you could e.g. multiclass to gain healing ability, or to gain a striker damage boost. Thunderwave pops up a lot simply because it's one of the best at-wills printed for any class, hands down.

Chainsaw Hobbit
2010-06-05, 10:19 PM
There really is no good defender for the Wizard to multiclass with in PH1, I suggest you buy (or bit-torrent) the 4E Forgotten Realms player's guide for the Swordmage.

Mando Knight
2010-06-05, 11:13 PM
Scratch that second suggestion, please. Roland and the Giant don't like the suggestion of freely distributing intellectual property without the rights or license to...

DragoonWraith
2010-06-06, 11:29 AM
Ultimately, I'm starting to think that I really can afford $10 to throw at this. Sitting here trying to fight with the limits of the PHB when I could just get DDI and actually get some real options seems rather silly.