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Siosilvar
2010-06-05, 12:13 PM
I'm not sure why, exactly, this idea came into my head, but here it is.

Replace both "Take 5-foot Step" and "Withdraw" with the following:

Five-foot Step
As a swift action or a move action, you may move 5 feet. This movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity. You may only perform this action once per round, regardless of the number of swift and move actions you get.

You can only take a 5-foot step if your movement isn’t hampered by difficult terrain or darkness. Any creature with a speed of 5 feet or less can’t take a 5-foot step, since moving even 5 feet requires a move action for such a slow creature.

You may not take a 5-foot step using a form of movement for which you do not have a listed speed.

If you have a BAB of +5 or greater and an opponent takes a 5-foot step out of your threatened area, you may take a 5-foot step in the same direction as an immediate action.


Old version; all comments before 8 are directed at this version.Five-foot Step
As a swift action, you may move 5 feet. This movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

You can only take a 5-foot step if your movement isn’t hampered by difficult terrain or darkness. Any creature with a speed of 5 feet or less can’t take a 5-foot step, since moving even 5 feet requires a move action for such a slow creature.

You may not take a 5-foot step using a form of movement for which you do not have a listed speed.

Temotei
2010-06-05, 02:20 PM
So...it's Dash, except free and only for people who have nothing to do with their swift/immediate actions?

I don't see any problems with abuse...that's for sure.

Jane_Smith
2010-06-05, 03:21 PM
Id make it "once per round as a free action", its not really worth a swift action considering even with normal rules, as-is, someone can make a full-attack action, swift/immediate action, and a 5-foot step. If anything this is a nerf.

DragoonWraith
2010-06-05, 03:33 PM
Massive nerf to classes who really, really don't need the nerf. Why?

AugustNights
2010-06-05, 03:38 PM
Why does it replace withdraw?
A full round action to move twice your speed away from combat, it seems a lot more difficult for the Thug bandits to run away, or have the mage stay out of combat. A five foot step is hardly a withdraw, even if they can make a full round action after it, because enemies with spears, or Large size and up can still take their AoOs.

Mulletmanalive
2010-06-05, 04:17 PM
I actually use the same thing, though I went one further and used the term "Shift" a la 4e and set it to the creature's natural reach. Of course, it may work better in my games because i use the Sage action trading rule...

In answer to the "why does it replace Withdraw?" question, Withdraw, like this, only affects the first square that you move from. Thus, the net result is the same but you can move your Move+5ft as a move and a swift action and then use your standard action for something. Turns it into a controlled withdrawl instead of running away in a tizz, like Withdraw always seemed to me.

arguskos
2010-06-05, 04:22 PM
Massive nerf to classes who really, really don't need the nerf. Why?
Same question. Why hurt classes that NEED their swifts? :smallconfused:

Siosilvar
2010-06-05, 04:29 PM
Why? Because I forgot you couldn't downgrade a move action.

Five-foot Step
As a swift action or a move action, you may move 5 feet. This movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity. You may only perform this action once per round, regardless of the number of swift and move actions you get.

You can only take a 5-foot step if your movement isn’t hampered by difficult terrain or darkness. Any creature with a speed of 5 feet or less can’t take a 5-foot step, since moving even 5 feet requires a move action for such a slow creature.

You may not take a 5-foot step using a form of movement for which you do not have a listed speed.

If you have a BAB of +5 or greater and an opponent takes a 5-foot step out of your threatened area, you may take a 5-foot step in the same direction as an immediate action.

Temotei
2010-06-05, 04:38 PM
That's better. Withdraw should probably still be an option, though.

One second. ONE!

Siosilvar
2010-06-05, 04:39 PM
That's better. Withdraw should probably still be an option, though.

Why? Just take a 5-foot step as a swift at the beginning of your turn, then double-move away. It accomplishes the exact same effect.

What?

arguskos
2010-06-05, 04:41 PM
What?
It's a joke between me and Temotei. Also, I see what you did there Temotei. :smallcool: Sixteen, myself.

Siosilvar
2010-06-05, 06:47 PM
It's a joke between me and Temotei. Also, I see what you did there Temotei. :smallcool: Sixteen, myself.

Ah. I think I get it now.

Ashtagon
2010-06-06, 01:47 AM
If you have a BAB of +5 or greater and an opponent takes a 5-foot step out of your threatened area, you may take a 5-foot step in the same direction as an immediate action.

The consequences of this change are that if Adam wants to leave leave a melee, he can do so at any time with no penalty, as long as Boris has a bab of +4 or lower. If Boris has a bab of +5 or higher, Adam can never leave melee unless Boris decides he isn't worth pursuing.

Jota
2010-06-06, 10:45 AM
The consequences of this change are that if Adam wants to leave leave a melee, he can do so at any time with no penalty, as long as Boris has a bab of +4 or lower. If Boris has a bab of +5 or higher, Adam can never leave melee unless Boris decides he isn't worth pursuing.

No, because Adam can take 5' steps as swift and move actions, whereas Boris is limited to immediate actions.

Ashtagon
2010-06-06, 11:03 AM
No, because Adam can take 5' steps as swift and move actions, whereas Boris is limited to immediate actions.

Adam takes his 5 ft step. Boris takes his immediate action to close the gap again. Adam then takes his two move actions to move away, provoking an attack of opportunity. Adam ends his turn 2 moves away from Boris, having provoked an aoo.

On his turn, Boris charges Adam, getting all the benefits (and penalties) that a charge entails.

Overall, Boris has made a charge attack and an aoo this round. Adam has not made a single attack. Except for being two move actions away from their original location, the tactical situation is the same as at the start of the round.

Jota
2010-06-06, 12:16 PM
Adam takes his 5 ft step. Boris takes his immediate action to close the gap again. Adam then takes his two move actions to move away, provoking an attack of opportunity. Adam ends his turn 2 moves away from Boris, having provoked an aoo.

On his turn, Boris charges Adam, getting all the benefits (and penalties) that a charge entails.

Overall, Boris has made a charge attack and an aoo this round. Adam has not made a single attack. Except for being two move actions away from their original location, the tactical situation is the same as at the start of the round.

Unless Boris has reach, Adam can take a second 5' step with a move action and then use his last move action to move away. Yes, he still within charge distance, but in this way he doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity. He can also Tumble. Under RAW, it's not that hard to avoid AoOs.

This isn't really that different from withdrawing, in that if the base speeds are equal, you're still in charge distance.

To be clear, I'm not especially in favor of this adaptation. Allowing someone to take a 5' step as a move action or swift action without removing the once per round as a free action chassis would be more to my liking, though that might be trickier to implement given the way the current rules are built around a limitation of one such step per round. The arbitrary BAB number doesn't make sense to me. If it were based on relative BAB, say if yours was greater than your opponent's by X, then fine. More power to more BAB makes a lot of sense to me given the typical dichotomy between BAB and spellcasting.

To go further along this line, if a certain amount of BAB were required to access these additional 5' steps, that would also help swing the balance a little, say +3 BAB to take a 5' step as a move action, +8 for a swift, perhaps. Everyone ends up on the same playing field (which may not be ideal), but unless you want to push it higher (+11 is one obvious point, though there are some mid-BAB casting PrCs and clerics already have mid and Divine Power) there's really no way to ensure it's exclusivity.

That said, all I'm saying is that what you're arguing against isn't really that different than what the current system system already provides for.

DragoonWraith
2010-06-06, 12:35 PM
I'm just going to say... I don't like this. Melee needs their Swift actions, and the ability to 5' step and move in one turn is a huge advantage to casters. I think the rules on 5' steps were pretty good; the addition of a way for high-BAB characters to move with casters is nice, but I don't like the rest of it.

Siosilvar
2010-06-06, 05:28 PM
To be clear, I'm not especially in favor of this adaptation. Allowing someone to take a 5' step as a move action or swift action without removing the once per round as a free action chassis would be more to my liking, though that might be trickier to implement given the way the current rules are built around a limitation of one such step per round. The arbitrary BAB number doesn't make sense to me. If it were based on relative BAB, say if yours was greater than your opponent's by X, then fine. More power to more BAB makes a lot of sense to me given the typical dichotomy between BAB and spellcasting.

So... you can still 5' step once per round, and you can use swift or move actions to take more?

The arbitrary BAB number is because I needed an arbitrary BAB number to pick. Greater than by X works, but... opposed BAB check?


I'm just going to say... I don't like this. Melee needs their Swift actions, and the ability to 5' step and move in one turn is a huge advantage to casters. I think the rules on 5' steps were pretty good; the addition of a way for high-BAB characters to move with casters is nice, but I don't like the rest of it.

Which is why I put this random idea I had up for discussion. It was really just a thought, is all. Some may like it, some may not.


The consequences of this change are that if Adam wants to leave leave a melee, he can do so at any time with no penalty, as long as Boris has a bab of +4 or lower. If Boris has a bab of +5 or higher, Adam can never leave melee unless Boris decides he isn't worth pursuing.

Not true.

swift 5' step -> full-round run.

Jota
2010-06-06, 06:09 PM
So... you can still 5' step once per round, and you can use swift or move actions to take more?

Yes, that was what I was proposing if you insisted on going through with this sort of change. I would rather see no change, however, than any of the ideas (including my own) bandied about here.

The arbitrary BAB number is because I needed an arbitrary BAB number to pick. Greater than by X works, but... opposed BAB check?

Having a flat number tells me that once you get to a certain point, further increases are irrelevant, which is patently not true in real combat. If it isn't that difficult to emulate, why not emulate it mechanically? Second, how is that an opposed BAB check? If yours is greater, do it. QED.

Which is why I put this random idea I had up for discussion. It was really just a thought, is all. Some may like it, some may not.



Not true.

swift 5' step -> full-round run.

This was referring to the ability to step as an immediate action.

Responses in bold.