Knife Throwing Rogue - PF/3.5

[Silvarelion]

Hey Playground!

Been thinking of a new character I'm rolling up, and am kinda interested in a knife-throwing sleight-of-hand style thief toon. What are some of the ways that I could make this happen in an awesome way? :P

I was thinking of throwing Shadowdancer in there as well, just for fun (and I like the thought of being able to teleport through shadows, very nice for a thief)

I just got into PF, so talking about that would be awesome, otherwise, I can probably make the conversion from 3.5

Thanks! Can't wait to see what's out there for rogue-ish types!

[gallagher]

master thrower so you can hit them on their Touch AC,, get splitting returning daggers, and a pair of gauntlets of infinite blades.

go bloodstorm blade so you can resolve throws as melee attacks, and then power attack if you wish. if you dont have the strength then you can skip that part

[Fax Celestis]

go bloodstorm blade so you can resolve throws as melee attacks, and then power attack if you wish. if you dont have the strength then you can skip that part

...or just take Brutal Throw.

[Zemro]

Master Thrower is nice, some abilities that jump out to me there are throwing two daggers at once, making targets flat-footed with sleight of hand, and targeting a creature's touch AC.

Additionally, if you're a halfling (I didn't see any mention of racial preference), the Whisperknife PrC in Races of the Wild is nice for both skills and tossing daggers around.

Both would require conversion to Pathfinder first, of course, but serve pretty well for throwing daggers around.

[Amphetryon]

Depending on what level and which world you're in, the Halfling bonus to thrown weapons can be useful at low levels; this is doubly true in the Realms with the Strongheart Halflings, who do not give up a feat for the privilege. Taking this path makes Bloodstorm Blade harder to justify because of the STR hit and the fact that your attacks no longer count as thrown.

Aside from Bloodstorm Blade, the prestige classes especially well suited to this style that spring to mind are: Master Thrower, Invisible Blade (pairs well with Master Thrower thanks to to prereqs), and Halfling Whisperknife.

[Silvarelion]

Another question:

Am I looking to get a lot of throws in a full-round action, and if so, I can assume all of the ranged weapon feats apply to daggers? Or should I be looking to hit just a couple times (splitting, multi-shot, etc) and tumble away?

[Saint GoH]

An ACF I have always thought was brilliant (and am constantly suggesting) is the Drow of the Underdark Fighter "Hit and Run Tactics". Basically you lose heavy armor but gain Dex to damage against flat-footed opponents. That, coupled with the sleight-of-hand skill trick, you are basically always hitting an opponent flat-footed, thus always getting dex to damage. Combine Hit and Run with the SA version of the Fighter on the SRD and you can also apply sneak attack :smallbiggrin:

[Kira_the_5th]

I actually just finished playing such a knife thrower. In Races of the Wild, there's a racial substitution level for halfling rogues that gives a 1d6 bonus to sneak attacks made with thrown weapons, at the cost of a 1d6 penalty when sneak attacking in melee. Combined with Master Thrower's ability to make enemies flat footed, fun times can be had.

[Zemro]

You'll need Quick Draw or some other way to draw daggers as a free action in order to throw multiple ones in the same round.

Master Thrower gives it to you at first level, and Whisperknife requires it.

[gallagher]

Also, for a backup weapon, get a couple of Halfling Skip Rocks (i think they are called) in races of faerun. they are fun indeed

[Boci]

I actually just finished playing such a knife thrower. In Races of the Wild, there's a racial substitution level for halfling rogues that gives a 1d6 bonus to sneak attacks made with thrown weapons, at the cost of a 1d6 penalty when sneak attacking in melee. Combined with Master Thrower's ability to make enemies flat footed, fun times can be had.

Its a move action to make them flat footed, so you're making 1 attack per round and are limited to a 5ft step.

[PId6]

Bloodstorm Blade + Stormguard Warrior can be incredibly fun. First turn throw a bunch of touch attack daggers that do no damage, next turn throw the same bunch of daggers for massive damage.

[Gnaeus]

I don't know if the concept is based around the throwing rogue, or daggers in particular, but the Gloves of Endless Javelins (MIC, the Manticore item set) can create +1 force javelins as free actions, allowing an endless supply of them. They are made of win for thrower rogues.

[Kaiyanwang]

I don't know if the concept is based around the throwing rogue, or daggers in particular, but the Gloves of Endless Javelins (MIC, the Manticore item set) can create +1 force javelins as free actions, allowing an endless supply of them. They are made of win for thrower rogues.

Well, if daggers are mandatory, one could ask the DM to change javelins in daggers. it does not seem to me game-breaking!

[Fax Celestis]

Another question:

Am I looking to get a lot of throws in a full-round action, and if so, I can assume all of the ranged weapon feats apply to daggers? Or should I be looking to hit just a couple times (splitting, multi-shot, etc) and tumble away?

Manyshot doesn't work for thrown weapons.

[PId6]

Manyshot doesn't work for thrown weapons.
For some strange reason. :smallannoyed:

[Lycanthromancer]

The Craven feat for +character level to damage.

Once you can afford it, and get enough levels in bloodstorm blade to get returning on your dagger, give it the splitting enhancement.

Take the Fling Ally feat and you can throw throwing/returning pouncing halfling barbarians who have Power Attack, Shock Trooper, Battle Jump, and Leap Attack.

[edit] If you go kensai, can you put sizing on the halflings?

[gallagher]

The Craven feat for +character level to damage.

Once you can afford it, and get enough levels in bloodstorm blade to get returning on your dagger, give it the splitting enhancement.

Take the Fling Ally feat and you can throw throwing/returning pouncing halfling barbarians who have Power Attack, Shock Trooper, Battle Jump, and Leap Attack.

[edit] If you go kensai, can you put sizing on the halflings?
technically, you can also make them keen halflings.

and if you want extra thrown weapons, make them splitting and take the feat Palm Throw

[Quietus]

[edit] If you go kensai, can you put sizing on the halflings?

No, 'cause a Kensai picks one weapon as his signature weapon. So you could take Bob the halfling, and put sizing on HIM... but not the rest.

[gallagher]

No, 'cause a Kensai picks one weapon as his signature weapon. So you could take Bob the halfling, and put sizing on HIM... but not the rest.

that is still incredibly useful, as you can put bonuses on someone with cahracter levels

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I don't know if the concept is based around the throwing rogue, or daggers in particular, but the Gloves of Endless Javelins (MIC, the Manticore item set) can create +1 force javelins as free actions, allowing an endless supply of them. They are made of win for thrower rogues.

Particularly since they are made of Force, and thus do not have a miss chance against Incorporeal creatures. If you have some way of applying precision-based damage to undead (Gravebane wand, or Swift Hunter), things could get ugly quick.

[Lycanthromancer]

No, 'cause a Kensai picks one weapon as his signature weapon. So you could take Bob the halfling, and put sizing on HIM... but not the rest.If you tie them together, they'd be considered a double-weapon, and so qualify. Conjoined twins?

You could, at that point, also make them your Item Familiar, and use Ancestral Weapon as well.

[Starbuck_II]

Its a move action to make them flat footed, so you're making 1 attack per round and are limited to a 5ft step.

Neraphim Throw feat does same thing as a free action (no check unlike Fient). Need Dex 15, Know(planes) 5.
It only works 1/foe/encounter though.

[Keld Denar]

Flick, the flaming dagger flinger! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5140212&postcount=11)

A true throwing prodegy!

[Curmudgeon]

master thrower so you can hit them on their Touch AC,, get splitting returning daggers, and a pair of gauntlets of infinite blades. Well, that's not going to work.
Activation: The splitting ability of a ranged weapon (must be a bow, crossbow, arrow, or bolt) only functions if its wielder has the Precise Shot feat.

[Lycanthromancer]

Well, that's not going to work.Polymorph any object?

[Curmudgeon]

Polymorph any object?
If it looks like a knife ... (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/If_it_looks_like_a_duck)

[gorfnab]

I've had success with these two builds below, for 3.5 anyways. It wouldn't be too hard to adapt these to Pathfinder (more feats :smallsmile:).

Human
1. Rogue - Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot
2. Swashbuckler - B:Weapon Finesse
3. Rogue - Two Weapon Fighting
4. Rogue - Penetrating Strike ACF (DS)
5. Swashbuckler
6. Swashbuckler - Craven
7. Fighter - Targeteer (Drag 310 or Page 52 (http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Classes-Base.pdf)) - Vital Aim
8. Fighter - Targeteer - Far Shot
9. Swordsage - Shadow Blade, B: Weapon Focus: Shadow Hand weapons
10. Swordsage - Assassins Stance
11. Master Thrower - B: Quick Draw
12. Master Thrower - Improved Two Weapon Fighting
13. Master Thrower
14. Master Thrower - B: Snatch Arrows
15. Master Thrower - Greater Two Weapon Fighting, B: Improved Critical
16. Invisible Blade
17. Invisible Blade
18. Invisible Blade - Rapid Shot
19. Invisible Blade
20. Invisible Blade

Strongheart Halfling
1. Rogue - Halfling Rogue (RotW) - Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot
2. Swashbuckler - B:Weapon Finesse
3. Rogue - Two Weapon Fighting
4. Rogue - Penetrating Strike ACF (DS)
5. Swashbuckler
6. Swashbuckler - Craven
7. Fighter - Targeteer (Drag 310) - Vital Aim
8. Fighter - Targeteer - Far Shot
9. Swordsage - Shadow Blade, B: Weapon Focus: Shadow Hand weapons
10. Swordsage - Assassins Stance
11. Master Thrower - B: Quick Draw
12. Master Thrower - Improved Two Weapon Fighting
13. Master Thrower
14. Master Thrower - B: Snatch Arrows
15. Master Thrower - Greater Two Weapon Fighting, B: Improved Critical
16. Whisper Knife - B: Rapid Shot
17. Whisper Knife
18. Whisper Knife or Invisible Blade - Improved Precise Shot
19. Invisible Blade
20. Invisible Blade

For Targeteer exotic weapon proficiencies look into Desert Throwing Knife (Sandstorm), Halfling Skiprock (Rotw) or Drow Long Knife (SoX). For Master Thrower tricks I recommend Palm Throw, Two With One Blow, and Weak Spot.

Each build will get you BAB 18 for 16 daggers thrown per round (8 get sneak attack because of volley rules).

If you can take flaws that will open up space for Improved Precise Shot (human build), Twin Sword Style, Darkstalker or other feats.

Also if your DM allows it try to see if you can do both the Targeteer Variant fighter along with the Hit-and-Run variant fighter (DotU).

[Boci]

Each build will get you BAB 18 for 16 daggers thrown per round (8 get sneak attack because of volley rules).

Palm throw has been errated to no longer double SA.

[gorfnab]

Each build will get you BAB 18 for 16 daggers thrown per round (8 get sneak attack because of volley rules).


Palm throw has been errated to no longer double SA.
This build gets 8 ranged attacks normally. 18 BAB, Two Weapon Fighting, ITWF, GTWF, and Rapid Shot. Palm Throw makes that 16 daggers thrown, 2 daggers per attack. Because of the rules for a volley attack, only the first dagger of each of the 8 attacks would get sneak attack damage if conditions are met. So for the human build at level 20 if all attacks hit with Palm Throw and are sneak attacks damage would be:
16 daggers from BAB, feats, and Palm Throw + 8 instances of sneak attack (1 dagger per attack per volley attack rules)
Each dagger would deal 1d4 + Int mod from Swashbuckler + Dex mod from Targeteer Vital Aim + 1 from Point Blank Shot.
Each instance of sneak attack would be 2d6 (rogue sneak attack) + 2d6 (Assassin's stance) + 3d6 (dagger sneak attack) +20 (Craven).

Edit: Rogue's Vest from MIC would add another +1d6 sneak attack damage.

[Boci]

This build gets 8 ranged attacks normally. 18 BAB, Two Weapon Fighting, ITWF, GTWF, and Rapid Shot. Palm Throw makes that 16 daggers thrown, 2 daggers per attack. Because of the rules for a volley attack, only the first dagger of each of the 8 attacks would get sneak attack damage if conditions are met. So for the human build at level 20 if all attacks hit with Palm Throw and are sneak attacks damage would be:
16 daggers from BAB, feats, and Palm Throw + 8 instances of sneak attack (1 dagger per attack per volley attack rules)
Each dagger would deal 1d4 + Int mod + Dex mod + 1 Point Blank Shot
Each instance of sneak attack would be 2d6 (rogue sneak attack) + 2d6 (Assassin's stance) + 3d6 (dagger sneak attack) +20 (Craven).

Sorry, don't know how I missread that.