PDA

View Full Version : Feats for archer build



theos911
2010-06-05, 07:13 PM
I am planning on becoming the classic sniper build listed in complete mage. I also wish to have ranged as a backup. I am looking for feats that will help with either with the archery or the magical sniping. I plan on using a longbow for ranged. For this to work I need a full casting class, but with enough BAB to range successfully, though considering I have decent dex for the to-hit, a low BAB wouldn't hurt too bad. Since I won't be frontline, HD is not very important. Any ideas?

gallagher
2010-06-05, 07:20 PM
I am planning on becoming the classic sniper build listed in complete mage. I also wish to have ranged as a backup. I am looking for feats that will help with either with the archery or the magical sniping. I plan on using a longbow for ranged. For this to work I need a full casting class, but with enough BAB to range successfully, though considering I have decent dex for the to-hit, a low BAB wouldn't hurt too bad. Since I won't be frontline, HD is not very important. Any ideas?

cloistered cleric, and have one of your domains be the war domain, and have your gad's favored weapon be the longbow

Prodan
2010-06-05, 07:20 PM
Bard with a 2 level dip in Arcane Archer.

gallagher
2010-06-05, 07:30 PM
Bard with a 2 level dip in Arcane Archer.he wants a full caster. while bard is pretty good for an archery build, a cleric has access to divine strength as a 4th level spell, which puts his BAB to his HD, gives him more strength for more hitting power, and he can get a bunch of spell storing weapons and put inflict spells and some serious debuffs in those arrows.

for the build, you would need WIS>DEX>STR=CHA>INT>CON

you arent in melee, but you still need a decent strength for damage output, and you have a minimum strength needed for a composite bow. your DEX and WIS both need to be high, with a 19 in your wisdom. be a halfling so you get extra DEX and small size advantages. you need some charisma, but with extra turning you will be able to power your DMM well enough.

Prodan
2010-06-05, 07:35 PM
he wants a full caster.
So we throw Sublime Chord on top of everything and call it a day?

theos911
2010-06-05, 07:38 PM
I am far from a bard hater, much the opposite, and while it's a good idea; I'm not sure it works here. The bard would have to be lvl 8 to meet the BAB reqs, and since no human for arcane archers he'll have burn all 3 of his feats to enter arcane archer, so his first metamagic would have to be on entering arcane archer, not bad, but a bit slow.

Prodan
2010-06-05, 07:39 PM
It was not specified that the character must be a human in the OP.

theos911
2010-06-05, 07:43 PM
He doesn't have to be human, but to enter arcane archer, he must be elf or half-elf. I based it on your idea...

Critical
2010-06-05, 07:47 PM
He wants to be both an archer and a full-caster? Okay. Be a Druidic Avenger, get a large(huge, gargantuan, whatever) composite bow with a high str rating, wild shape into something that can wield a bow, rage and shoot away?

theos911
2010-06-05, 07:53 PM
I looked at sublime chord; that is a good idea. I don't need full-casting, but I would like to be able to magically snipe to some degree.

Prodan
2010-06-05, 07:57 PM
He doesn't have to be human, but to enter arcane archer, he must be elf or half-elf. I based it on your idea...

I never said anything about race, just classes.

theos911
2010-06-05, 08:00 PM
@Prodan

I'm not looking to argue; no I did not specify a race. To be an arcane archer I must be elf or half-elf, so by the time I meet the reqs as a bard I'll have to use all 3 of my feats; That's all I'm saying.

PId6
2010-06-05, 08:17 PM
Rogue 1/Wizard 5/Unseen Seer 10/Arcane Trickster 4
OR Spellthief 1/Wizard 5/Unseen Seer 10/Arcane Trickster 4

Sneak Attack adds to ranged damage output significantly.

Kallisti
2010-06-05, 08:36 PM
Clarification: You say you wish to have ranged "as backup." You want to have something to do when the spells run low, and reserve feats aren't enough. Is this correct?

If not and you want to be primarily an archer, what PId6 said, although my recommendations on magic item choices still apply.

If so, I recommend avoiding Arcane Archer. Spell Storing obviates Imbue Arrow completely, and Greater Magic Weapon removes the need for Enchant Arrow. The other arrow tricks are kinda cool, but not really worth the levels to support backup.

I'd go with Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot for feats, since those also apply to rays, and other than that just get Spell Storing arrows and a wand of Greater Magic Weapon. Buy Bane arrows for types you think you'll need, a Quiver of Energy (from some Dragon Magazine or other) if your DM will allow it, and get a bow with decent enchantments. I recommend Splitting if you can afford it (Champions of Ruin, IIRC), Speed and Seeking. No need to buy an enhancement bonus greater than +1, Greater Magic Weapon is more powerful and cheaper. If you're having a huge amount of trouble hitting, a Wand of Divine Power should fix that right up. For damage, a bow with some snazzy enchantments and a decent strength should do. Really, you don't need to spend feats and especially not levels on a backup plan.

Tetsubo 57
2010-06-05, 11:56 PM
cloistered cleric, and have one of your domains be the war domain, and have your gad's favored weapon be the longbow

I am a huge lover of the Cloistered Cleric. But a Cloistered Cleric of War? Cloistered Clerics are not the get out and face the enemy types. It's sort of why they are cloistered. They stay in the keep and study. I could maybe see a justification if they were Elven and took up archery as a philosophical study, as in Zen archery. You might even convince me to allow that for a human. But not about getting the War domain...

Myshlaevsky
2010-06-06, 12:01 AM
I am a huge lover of the Cloistered Cleric. But a Cloistered Cleric of War? Cloistered Clerics are not the get out and face the enemy types. It's sort of why they are cloistered. They stay in the keep and study. I could maybe see a justification if they were Elven and took up archery as a philosophical study, as in Zen archery. You might even convince me to allow that for a human. But not about getting the War domain...


The cloistered cleric spends more time than other clerics in study and prayer and less in martial training. He gives up some of the cleric's combat prowess in exchange for greater skill access and a wider range of spells devoted to knowledge (and the protection of knowledge).

This can't apply to a cadet or martial academy, why? Plenty of people have made an academic study of war - and put it to good use afterwards, at that.

Tetsubo 57
2010-06-06, 12:05 AM
This can't apply to a cadet or martial academy, why? Plenty of people have made an academic study of war - and put it to good use afterwards, at that.

That's a great justification for a a Knowledge (History) focus. And as I said I could see a Zen archery slant. But a god in my campaign is not going to grant access to the War domain to an armchair warrior.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-06-06, 12:13 AM
Make a (Gray) Elf Wizard with the fighter feat variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wizard), specialize if you want or go generalist with the elf substitution level. Take point-blank shot and precise shot, which are also useful for ranged touch spells. You'll have racial proficiency in bows, and be sure to get a stack of +1 Spell Storing Arrows to put spells like (Maximized) Sound Lance, (Extended) Bands of Steel, (Maximized) Shivering Touch, etc. into. If you want to boost your BAB you can pick up a level of Dragon Slayer and a level of Spellsword, then get all five of Abjurant Champion, and only jump out of Wizard BAB (prestige) classes at even numbered levels.

An alternative would be to make a Battle Sorcerer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererVariantBattleS orcerer), again using Elf for racial bow proficiencies. That gets considerably better BAB but much weaker spell selection. You could use the super-cheesy Spellhoarding Venerable Dragonwrought Kobold Loredrake, using the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage and going Stalwart Battle Sorcerer for (character level +3) Wizard spellcasting ability with 3/4 BAB and d8+2+Con HP/level.

Curmudgeon
2010-06-06, 12:15 AM
I am a huge lover of the Cloistered Cleric. But a Cloistered Cleric of War? ... They stay in the keep and study
There were plenty of scholars who studied war. Julius Caesar wrote a treatise on his wars with the Gauls. How do you think Sun Tzu was able to write The Art of War? From both study and battlefield experience. Carl von Clausewitz spent years (from 1816 to 1830) studiously working on Vom Kriege ("On War") -- but first he was a Prussian general. Modern general officers almost always start with 4+ years of study at an academy like West Point.

I think you're just having a conceptual block. There's nothing inherently incompatible with Cloistered Clerics and the War domain.

Keld Denar
2010-06-06, 12:23 AM
So, less levels in actual Bard. If you did something like this:

Harmonious Knight Paladin2/Sorcerer6/ArcaneArcher2/SublimeChord2/SacredExorcist8

You'll have to have a decent int to get the skills in line, given that paladin and sorcerer are only 2+int skill points, and AA is 4+int.

Still, if you can pull it off, you get massive Cha synergy, 14/20 BAB, 10/10 SC casting.

Tetsubo 57
2010-06-06, 12:23 AM
There were plenty of scholars who studied war. Julius Caesar wrote a treatise on his wars with the Gauls. How do you think Sun Tzu was able to write The Art of War? From both study and battlefield experience. Carl von Clausewitz spent years (from 1816 to 1830) studiously working on Vom Kriege ("On War") -- but first he was a Prussian general. Modern general officers almost always start with 4+ years of study at an academy like West Point.

I think you're just having a conceptual block. There's nothing inherently incompatible with Cloistered Clerics and the War domain.

None of those people would be full level casters however. They would be Fighters or Warriors with a focus in Knowledge (History) and they might pick up a few Cloistered Cleric levels during retirement.

No conceptual block on my part at all. People that study 24/7 make very poor warriors.

Myshlaevsky
2010-06-06, 12:25 AM
None of those people would be full level casters however. They would be Fighters or Warriors with a focus in Knowledge (History) and they might pick up a few Cloistered Cleric levels during retirement.

No conceptual block on my part at all. People that study 24/7 make very poor warriors.

But it doesn't say that they study 24/7. It says:


The cloistered cleric spends more time than other clerics in study and prayer and less in martial training.

This in no way mandates that he or she doesn't undertake martial training, or that their study of and attitude towards war isn't done with the focus of a warrior, if not the skill.

Tetsubo 57
2010-06-06, 12:32 AM
But it doesn't say that they study 24/7. It says:



This in no way mandates that he or she doesn't undertake martial training, or that their study of and attitude towards war isn't done with the focus of a warrior, if not the skill.

In any campaign I ran, a person that had the title 'cloistered' would not spend *enough* time in martial training to garner the attention of a War God. A CC is only trained in simple weapons. Only slightly better than a mage. That does not scream 'martial' to me. If you want to get the attention of a War God, be a full cleric.

lsfreak
2010-06-06, 12:36 AM
In any campaign I ran, a person that had the title 'cloistered' would not spend *enough* time in martial training to garner the attention of a War God. A CC is only trained in simple weapons. Only slightly better than a mage. That does not scream 'martial' to me. If you want to get the attention of a War God, be a full cleric.

Fortunately, clerics don't even need gods. They just need ideals, and can get power from that. Also, it's fairly clear that gods don't really have a choice in the matter - if someone wants spells from them, they grant them. There is nothing rules-wise, at least that I've found, to allow gods to refuse access to spells, and in places like Forgotten Realms there's plot devices Ao, who prevents that from happening.

gallagher
2010-06-06, 12:37 AM
traditional samurai were scholars AND warriors. they were poets, historians, could afford a proper education, and were very adept at fighting. while you hear all the hype about a katana, there is also alot to be said about their archery skill, as they had a bow comparable to the english longbow.

with that said, he could say he became a cloistered cleric to avoid front line battle, as he didnt have the mettle to wield a sword properly. but he could use a bow.

that being said, i forgot that a cloistered cleric has a poor BAB, and i dont know what level you are starting at, but if you cant persist a Divine Strength, you wont be that capable an archer. in that case, you can still be a regular cleric. 3/4ths BAB, some of the best buffs in the game, be evil so you can spontaniously cast inflict spells if you need them, and make all them have a hard time getting close enough to you to remove you from the game

Animefunkmaster
2010-06-06, 12:44 AM
Knowledge Devotion from Complete Champion, and Deadeye from the Dragon Compendium (ERRATA!!! to qualify) are both reasonably good feats for ranged (and rapid shot isn't bad, not very helpful for casting).

There are plenty of tricks for a wizard or cleric route that deal predominantly with spells and lowering metamagic. I will second unseen seer. Reasonable sneak attack, you still have spells and enough skills.

Tetsubo 57
2010-06-06, 12:50 AM
Fortunately, clerics don't even need gods. They just need ideals, and can get power from that. Also, it's fairly clear that gods don't really have a choice in the matter - if someone wants spells from them, they grant them. There is nothing rules-wise, at least that I've found, to allow gods to refuse access to spells, and in places like Forgotten Realms there's plot devices Ao, who prevents that from happening.

In any campaign I run, the gods are in charge, not the clerics, cloistered or otherwise. You don't tow the party line? You don't get new spells the next day. Any GM that gives up that sort of control is foolish in my opinion.

Tetsubo 57
2010-06-06, 12:52 AM
traditional samurai were scholars AND warriors. they were poets, historians, could afford a proper education, and were very adept at fighting. while you hear all the hype about a katana, there is also alot to be said about their archery skill, as they had a bow comparable to the english longbow.

with that said, he could say he became a cloistered cleric to avoid front line battle, as he didnt have the mettle to wield a sword properly. but he could use a bow.

that being said, i forgot that a cloistered cleric has a poor BAB, and i dont know what level you are starting at, but if you cant persist a Divine Strength, you wont be that capable an archer. in that case, you can still be a regular cleric. 3/4ths BAB, some of the best buffs in the game, be evil so you can spontaniously cast inflict spells if you need them, and make all them have a hard time getting close enough to you to remove you from the game

I am aware of the Samurai's scholarly nature. But that is all they did, be Samurai. They were not casters, full or otherwise. Bushido does mean The Way of the Bow & Horse after all. And any Samurai that avoided front line duty would be marked as a coward.

Mongoose87
2010-06-06, 12:53 AM
In any campaign I run, the gods are in charge, not the clerics, cloistered or otherwise. You don't tow the party line? You don't get new spells the next day. Any GM that gives up that sort of control is foolish in my opinion.

And a DM that is anal enough to say studious people can't worship war gods is in mine.


Cleric/PrCs 2- with the Zen Archery feat (Complete Warrior) will serve you well, OP.

Tetsubo 57
2010-06-06, 12:57 AM
And a DM that is anal enough to say studious people can't worship war gods is in mine.


Cleric/PrCs 2- with the Zen Archery feat (Complete Warrior) will serve you well, OP.

I never said a studious person can't worship a war god. Worship all you want. Laypeople and warriors worship them all the time. But no war god worth the name is ever going to provide power to a person that sits in a chair all day and reads books. War gods want clerics that are out there on the sharp end of things.

lsfreak
2010-06-06, 12:58 AM
I never said a studious person can't worship a war god. Worship all you want. Laypeople and warriors worship them all the time. But no war god worth the name is ever going to provide power to a person that sits in a chair all day and reads books. War gods want clerics that are out there on the sharp end of things.

Yes, because a cleric that's built as an archer and is in an adventuring party also spends his entire day inside on a chair reading books.

Keld Denar
2010-06-06, 01:04 AM
The only problem with Zen Archery is that most of the good archery feats have Dex prereqs, and if you are focusing on Wis, you might not have the Dex to spare, especially since you are no longer relying on Dex to hit. So, if you prioritizing Dex to be able to take those feats, then Zen Archery will only give you a minimal boost over Dex and probably isn't very well worth taking.

EDIT: Ok, dude, JUST STOP. You aren't helping the OP at all. All you are doing is trying to convince a bunch of people who don't want to be convinced. You can't win all battles. Just stop.

Tetsubo 57
2010-06-06, 01:06 AM
Yes, because a cleric that's built as an archer and is in an adventuring party also spends his entire day inside on a chair reading books.

You can be an archer and never draw blood in your entire life. *I* have trained in archery. I have never loosed an arrow at anything other than a target. A Cloistered Cleric in an adventuring party should be considered a fish out of water. Literally in an alien environment. Even if they know how to hold a bow.

gallagher
2010-06-06, 01:23 AM
You can be an archer and never draw blood in your entire life. *I* have trained in archery. I have never loosed an arrow at anything other than a target. A Cloistered Cleric in an adventuring party should be considered a fish out of water. Literally in an alien environment. Even if they know how to hold a bow.the cloistered cleric is proficient with crossbows, javelins, and slings, all of which are ranged weapons that are still effective in the right builds. plus, with either a feat or some multiclassing, he will be able to pick up martial proficiency and get bigger bows.

just because a character description leads you to believe one way, doesnt mean one must fit the cookie cutter. otherwise, dragons would be color coded for your convenience, because we all know that the same arguments are said for alignments.

plus, the description says they spend more time "in study and prayer and less in martial training." they are still spending time in martial training, just not as much as the other clerics.

plus, a war domain could be given because they are battle strategists

Tetsubo 57
2010-06-06, 01:34 AM
the cloistered cleric is proficient with crossbows, javelins, and slings, all of which are ranged weapons that are still effective in the right builds. plus, with either a feat or some multiclassing, he will be able to pick up martial proficiency and get bigger bows.

just because a character description leads you to believe one way, doesnt mean one must fit the cookie cutter. otherwise, dragons would be color coded for your convenience, because we all know that the same arguments are said for alignments.

plus, the description says they spend more time "in study and prayer and less in martial training." they are still spending time in martial training, just not as much as the other clerics.

plus, a war domain could be given because they are battle strategists

And as far as I am concerned that falls into the Knowledge (History) or maybe Knowledge (Tactics) skill categories. Neither of which has anything to do with being actually martial.

Look, cloistered to me means just that, cloistered. Sheltered from the outside world. Protected. If it means something different to you, go for it.

Keld Denar
2010-06-06, 01:40 AM
Look, cloistered to me means just that, cloistered. Sheltered from the outside world. Protected. If it means something different to you, go for it.

Yes, but whatever YOU think, there is NO actual game rule backing up your claim. You've made it. People have disagreed with it. The OP can read both positions. Any more isn't helping advance the OPs cause. If you have a real beef with CC and the War domain, ban it in your own games, or start your own thead to rant about it. Don't tell other people how to play.

Zaq
2010-06-06, 01:55 AM
I never said a studious person can't worship a war god. Worship all you want. Laypeople and warriors worship them all the time. But no war god worth the name is ever going to provide power to a person that sits in a chair all day and reads books. War gods want clerics that are out there on the sharp end of things.

Let's say you're Wargod, the generically-named god of war. You have a follower named Cloister, the generically-named Cloistered Cleric.

Due to upbringing, philosophical bent, or any number of circumstances, Cloister hasn't gotten out much to actually crack skulls. He spends most of his time studying your scriptures, contemplating ancient and current battles, and generally being a faithful follower, if a rather, well, cloistered one.

Then, one morning Cloister prays to you and says "O great Wargod, I have decided that it is time for me to put your teachings into practice. I wish to go forth into the land and kill things and take their stuff adventure, in your most holy name. Please, grant your humble servant your power, so that I may proceed as your teachings command."

Is it really so hard to imagine that you say "Well, about damn time you got off your ass and got your hands dirty. Here, have some war-related spells (and domain powers) so that you don't make a total fool out of yourself and can kick ass in my name," or something like that? I think that a god of war would be thrilled that one of his most fervent followers has finally decided to go forth and spread war where war is needed, and would have no qualms about helping them to do so. Withholding that power certainly isn't going to help the War portfolio, after all.

Tetsubo 57
2010-06-06, 02:02 AM
Let's say you're Wargod, the generically-named god of war. You have a follower named Cloister, the generically-named Cloistered Cleric.

Due to upbringing, philosophical bent, or any number of circumstances, Cloister hasn't gotten out much to actually crack skulls. He spends most of his time studying your scriptures, contemplating ancient and current battles, and generally being a faithful follower, if a rather, well, cloistered one.

Then, one morning Cloister prays to you and says "O great Wargod, I have decided that it is time for me to put your teachings into practice. I wish to go forth into the land and kill things and take their stuff adventure, in your most holy name. Please, grant your humble servant your power, so that I may proceed as your teachings command."

Is it really so hard to imagine that you say "Well, about damn time you got off your ass and got your hands dirty. Here, have some war-related spells (and domain powers) so that you don't make a total fool out of yourself and can kick ass in my name," or something like that? I think that a god of war would be thrilled that one of his most fervent followers has finally decided to go forth and spread war where war is needed, and would have no qualms about helping them to do so. Withholding that power certainly isn't going to help the War portfolio, after all.

To me, you just described the NPC Adept class. And once the character decided to go forth and wreak havoc in his gods name, he became a Cleric.

But I wouldn't want to tell people how to play the game.

Knaight
2010-06-06, 02:05 AM
The NPC adept class with arcane magic? Which makes every bit as much sense as an adventurer as the wizard, though a bit short on power?

Besides, why is it that the day this "adept" decides to actually go do something, they suddenly learn a whole bunch of weapons, can use armor heavier than they ever have with no training, and are generally tougher? Sure, taking cleric levels instead of cloistered in the future makes sense (or would, if the casting actually stacked sensibly), but adept. That makes no sense, the cloistered cleric is basically the divine adept anyways, though more competent.

Curmudgeon
2010-06-06, 02:12 AM
In any campaign I run, the gods are in charge, not the clerics, cloistered or otherwise.
What about those Clerics (Cloistered or otherwise) who don't worship a god?
If a cleric is not devoted to a particular deity, he still selects two domains to represent his spiritual inclinations and abilities. The restriction on alignment domains still applies.

Tetsubo 57
2010-06-06, 02:18 AM
What about those Clerics (Cloistered or otherwise) who don't worship a god?

I have never encountered a player who ran such a character nor played such a character. I haven't ever had to make that call. Since their power is based on a divine source, I would have to hear a really good explanation to justify that decision. To me it always seemed like a cop-out. Someone wanting the benefits of a divine class without any of the drawbacks.

Sliver
2010-06-06, 02:36 AM
The "I see and play X this way so suggesting it to the OP is invalid" argument gets old fast, and helps no one. We got it.

Play it as you like.

http://guidesmedia.ign.com/guides/9846/images/cloyster.gif

Prodan
2010-06-06, 05:21 AM
Tetsubo, you have every right to DM as you will in your world.

Meanwhile the rest of us will be helping out the OP with his world. Sound good?

Eldariel
2010-06-06, 06:09 AM
To me, you just described the NPC Adept class. And once the character decided to go forth and wreak havoc in his gods name, he became a Cleric.

But I wouldn't want to tell people how to play the game.

NPC Adept class is not meant for PCs; why would you force one to play a subpar class to fulfill their concept? In general, it seems like you make a great deal of effort to use the default fluff of the classes. Are all your warriors Fighters and champions of gods Paladins? How about a Cleric champion or a Ranger/Barbarian warrior?

Cloistered Cleric, when it comes to crunch, is merely a cleric more focused on skills with worse default weapon skills. Note that normal cleric wields simple weapons just the same; that doesn't really matter. The difference is d6 vs. d8 and medium vs. low BAB. But that doesn't really matter; Cleric's martial prowess mostly comes as a divine gift (Divine Favor, Divine Power, Righteous Might, et cetera) and physical ability (strength) anyways, so why couldn't you have a Warrior CC? All the same how much you train with weapons when you are granted the skills by magic anyways.


A CC spends slightly less time training for weapons, but catches up thanks to magic, and spends the saved time reading more obscure knowledge. Doesn't really seem that farfetched to me; CC's name is merely fluff and you could call is "Warpriest" without changing a thing. You don't need levels in the awful Warprest-class to be a Warpriest.

For example, there's the whole "Miko is a Samurai with 0 levels in Samurai, some in Monk & Paladin"-thing; Samurai the rank is in no ways tied to Samurai the class.

Curmudgeon
2010-06-06, 08:36 AM
Here's a way to get more archery-related feats in a mostly spellcasting build; it's got something for everybody.

Race: Wood Elf (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elf.htm#woodElf) (+2 DEX, +2 STR, -2 CON, -2 INT; Favored Class: Ranger). Alignment: within 1 step of Chaotic Good. You'll need to join the Order of the Shooting Star (see Champions of Valor). This build requires DEX 17 by the time you get to level 9 for Manyshot, and DEX 19 later if you pick up Improved Precise Shot.


Cloistered Cleric 1 of Solonor Thelandira. Domains: Knowledge, War, Elf; gain Weapon Focus (longbow) and Point Blank Shot feats as granted powers. Level 1 feat: Precise Shot. Should pick up 1+ ranks in Knowledge (arcana) and 4 ranks in Knowledge (religion).
Mystic Ranger 1 (Ranger variant in Dragon # 336, page 105). Gain wild empathy, Track feat. Should pick up 5 ranks in Survival.
Cloistered Cleric 2. Level 3 feat: Far Shot.
Cloistered Cleric 3.
Mystic Ranger 2. Take Arcane Hunter ACF (Complete Mage, page 32) to get Favored Enemy: Arcanists. Gain 3 more ranks in Survival to get 8 total ranks.
Seeker of the Misty Isle (Complete Divine, page 61) 1. Gain Travel as bonus domain; convert this to Travel Devotion (Complete Champion, page 62) feat. Level 6 feat: Dead Eye (Dragon Compendium, page 95): add DEX bonus to arrow damage within 30'.
Mystic Ranger 3. Choose combat style: archery; this grants the Rapid Shot feat.
Mystic Ranger 4. Gain Endurance as a bonus feat.
Seeker of the Misty Isle 2. You'll now have BAB 6. Level 9 feat: Manyshot.
Seeker of the Misty Isle 3.
Seeker of the Misty Isle 4. Do the Dark Chaos Shuffle (Fiendish Codex I, pages 92 & 95) to swap Track and Endurance for

Sword of the Arcane Order feat (Champions of Valor, page 34): cast Wizard arcane spells in Ranger spell slots; and
Holy Warrior reserve feat (Complete Champion, page 60): add level of highest reserved War spell to weapon damage.
You'll now have Cleric 7 spellcasting, BAB 8, and can cast Ranger/Wizard spells at levels 0-2.
If you want to spread on the cheese sauce, this is where you would do the Dark Chaos Shuffle with the 4 Elf bonus feats
Weapon Proficiency: Elves receive the Martial Weapon Proficiency feats for the longsword, rapier, longbow (including composite longbow), and shortbow (including composite shortbow) as bonus feats. and pick up Extend Spell, Persistent Spell, Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell), and Extra Turning; persist Divine Power to keep your BAB up all day.

At this point you qualify to enter Arcane Archer, or you can continue with Seeker of the Misty Isle for more Cleric spellcasting plus other benefits of that PrC.

With Divine Power you'll be at BAB 11.
You'll add (DEX mod +1) to attacks, and (with a composite longbow) (STR mod +4) to damage. (The +1 is from Weapon Focus; the +4 is from Holy Warrior.)
Within 30' you'll add an additional +1 to attacks, and (DEX mod + 1) to damage. (The +1 is from Point Blank Shot; the DEX mod is from Dead Eye.)
You'll have 10 useful feats (or 14 with the cheesy sauce added), without flaws. If at some point you think you've got enough skill ranks in the various Knowledges, you can convert Knowledge domain to Knowledge Devotion for bonuses to attack and damage against the corresponding creature types.

gallagher
2010-06-06, 01:41 PM
This is actually the best archery build I have ever seen. Actually, it may be my second favorite ranged build, right behind the spellthief/warlock/hellfire warlock
Here's a way to get more archery-related feats in a mostly spellcasting build; it's got something for everybody.

Race: Wood Elf (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elf.htm#woodElf) (+2 DEX, +2 STR, -2 CON, -2 INT; Favored Class: Ranger). Alignment: within 1 step of Chaotic Good. You'll need to join the Order of the Shooting Star (see Champions of Valor). This build requires DEX 17 by the time you get to level 9 for Manyshot, and DEX 19 later if you pick up Improved Precise Shot.


Cloistered Cleric 1 of Solonor Thelandira. Domains: Knowledge, War, Elf; gain Weapon Focus (longbow) and Point Blank Shot feats as granted powers. Level 1 feat: Precise Shot. Should pick up 1+ ranks in Knowledge (arcana) and 4 ranks in Knowledge (religion).
Mystic Ranger 1 (Ranger variant in Dragon # 336, page 105). Gain wild empathy, Track feat. Should pick up 5 ranks in Survival.
Cloistered Cleric 2. Level 3 feat: Far Shot.
Cloistered Cleric 3.
Mystic Ranger 2. Take Arcane Hunter ACF (Complete Mage, page 32) to get Favored Enemy: Arcanists. Gain 3 more ranks in Survival to get 8 total ranks.
Seeker of the Misty Isle (Complete Divine, page 61) 1. Gain Travel as bonus domain; convert this to Travel Devotion (Complete Champion, page 62) feat. Level 6 feat: Dead Eye (Dragon Compendium, page 95): add DEX bonus to arrow damage within 30'.
Mystic Ranger 3. Choose combat style: archery; this grants the Rapid Shot feat.
Mystic Ranger 4. Gain Endurance as a bonus feat.
Seeker of the Misty Isle 2. You'll now have BAB 6. Level 9 feat: Manyshot.
Seeker of the Misty Isle 3.
Seeker of the Misty Isle 4. Do the Dark Chaos Shuffle (Fiendish Codex I, pages 92 & 95) to swap Track and Endurance for

Sword of the Arcane Order feat (Champions of Valor, page 34): cast Wizard arcane spells in Ranger spell slots; and
Holy Warrior reserve feat (Complete Champion, page 60): add level of highest reserved War spell to weapon damage.
You'll now have Cleric 7 spellcasting, BAB 8, and can cast Ranger/Wizard spells at levels 0-2.
If you want to spread on the cheese sauce, this is where you would do the Dark Chaos Shuffle with the 4 Elf bonus feats and pick up Extend Spell, Persistent Spell, Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell), and Extra Turning; persist Divine Power to keep your BAB up all day.

At this point you qualify to enter Arcane Archer, or you can continue with Seeker of the Misty Isle for more Cleric spellcasting plus other benefits of that PrC.

With Divine Power you'll be at BAB 11.
You'll add (DEX mod +1) to attacks, and (with a composite longbow) (STR mod +4) to damage. (The +1 is from Weapon Focus; the +4 is from Holy Warrior.)
Within 30' you'll add an additional +1 to attacks, and (DEX mod + 1) to damage. (The +1 is from Point Blank Shot; the DEX mod is from Dead Eye.)
You'll have 10 useful feats (or 14 with the cheesy sauce added), without flaws. If at some point you think you've got enough skill ranks in the various Knowledges, you can convert Knowledge domain to Knowledge Devotion for bonuses to attack and damage against the corresponding creature types.

theos911
2010-06-06, 07:48 PM
I kinda stopped lurking after the arguers... well started arguing. You my friend are awesome. That is way more complicated than I expected and probably more than I will actually do, for fear of like breaking my DM's campaign. Thank you much for one of the few constructive answers I actually got.

**Cookie for you**

I'm kinda occupied with helping build a paladin arcane caster synergy over here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=154984) or I would of lurked/posted more.

theos911
2010-06-07, 02:44 PM
How does the Dark chaos shuffle work? Also, how would I convert the knowledge domain into knowledge devotion?

lsfreak
2010-06-07, 02:56 PM
How does the Dark chaos shuffle work?
Cheesily (and one of the few times I use the word); it's from the Fiendish Codex I. Embrace the Dark Chaos (spell) lets you trade a feat for an Abyssal heritor feat feats. Then you Shun the Dark Chaos to turn them into any other feats.


Also, how would I convert the knowledge domain into knowledge devotion?
Complete Champion lets you drop a domain (its spells and granted powers) in order to turn it into that domain's devotion feat. You can do it at any time, though it's non-reversible.

theos911
2010-06-07, 03:03 PM
Cheesily (and one of the few times I use the word); it's from the Fiendish Codex I. Embrace the Dark Chaos (spell) lets you trade a feat for an Abyssal heritor feat feats. Then you Shun the Dark Chaos to turn them into any other feats.

Ok, that's cheesy, it's a fondue if your character fluff doesn't fit the alignment. Otherwise, it's mildly cheesy, depending on what feats you trade for what. Toughness for maximize would be a bit cheesy. Trading extra Turning for Divine metamagic would not be.

Ruinix
2010-06-07, 03:04 PM
what about Factotum 8 / any PrC arcane full caster.

lsfreak
2010-06-07, 03:09 PM
Ok, that's cheesy, it's a fondue if your character fluff doesn't fit the alignment. Otherwise, it's mildly cheesy, depending on what feats you trade for what. Toughness for maximize would be a bit cheesy. Trading extra Turning for Divine metamagic would not be.

Oh, it's not cheesy at all if you're trading feats you actually took for new feats. The problem is that elves get 4 usually-worthless weapon proficiencies simply for being elves. They can be chaos shuffled. That's 4 free feats simply for being an elf.

theos911
2010-06-07, 03:16 PM
Ahh, now it sounds cheesy. Though, it's tempting considering I want to persist divine power. **Looking at devotion and it's workings now**
So to gain a devotion feat, you may give up a domain you already have, or take it as a normal feat. Am I right in this?

lsfreak
2010-06-07, 03:23 PM
Ahh, now it sounds cheesy. Though, it's tempting considering I want to persist divine power. **Looking at devotion and it's workings now** I just noticed, since a cleric could give up some useless domain to gain 3 devotion feats, they could then dark chaos shuffle them as well. That would be the ultimate cheese!

Though Devotion feats are (often) worth it. Especially if you don't have to worship a particular god but can worship concepts. I.e, for an archer, taking Travel, Air, and Knowledge as your domains isn't bad. Some combination of Travel, Law, Knowledge, Death, Air, and Healing domains are all fairly worthwhile, depending on the exact character. If you've got a worthless god, though, and crappy domains, then yea, you could switch those out.

Curmudgeon
2010-06-07, 03:28 PM
Ok, that's cheesy, it's a fondue if your character fluff doesn't fit the alignment
The spell Embrace the Dark Chaos (Fiendish Codex I, page 92) swaps an existing feat for an Abyssal Heritor feat (see Fiendish Codex I, page 82) the subject qualifies for.
The spell Shun the Dark Chaos (Fiendish Codex I, page 95) swaps an existing Abyssal Heritor feat for any other feat the subject qualifies for.

Abyssal Heritor feats are inherently chaotic. A character with more than one irrevocably becomes chaotically aligned. However, the above procedure can also be executed one feat at a time, and that's the technique you'd use to swap the feats. And as the build features a character who worships a CG god, even that isn't necessary. No alignment issues are present in my build.


Oh, it's not cheesy at all if you're trading feats you actually took for new feats. You don't need to spend the gp on spellcasting services to swap those you've actually picked, because straight retraining using the rules in Players Handbook II will accomplish the job. So I draw the line just a bit more loosely, and include feats you get as class features that aren't useful for the character. In this case those are the Ranger feats Track and Endurance.

The problem is that elves get 4 usually-worthless weapon proficiencies simply for being elves. They can be chaos shuffled. That's 4 free feats simply for being an elf. I merely mentioned the possibility for the sake of completeness. I think the build stands on its own merits without the cheesy sauce.

Os1ris09
2010-06-07, 03:38 PM
I have never encountered a player who ran such a character nor played such a character. I haven't ever had to make that call. Since their power is based on a divine source, I would have to hear a really good explanation to justify that decision. To me it always seemed like a cop-out. Someone wanting the benefits of a divine class without any of the drawbacks.

Then you haven't played with my guys.....

OP: All I can offer for advice is the post's from above. Take Cloistered Cleric with Zen archery and the only feats after that are point blank and precise shot. More feat investment than that and you're straying from your original idea

theos911
2010-06-07, 03:42 PM
Let me know If I'm wrong but"

You would need str for damage.

You would need dex for the to-hit and later to damage within 30ft.

You wouldn't really need con, but hp's are nice.

You would sorta need int for skill points for knowledge devotion, and the wiz casting on you ranger slots

You would VERY MUCH need wisdom for both your spellcasting classes.

You would need cha for turn attempts and divine metamagics.

That is 3 you need high, and 3 you need sorta high.

lsfreak
2010-06-07, 03:46 PM
You don't need to spend the gp on spellcasting services to swap those you've actually picked, because straight retraining using the rules in Players Handbook II will accomplish the job. So I draw the line just a bit more loosely, and include feats you get as class features that aren't useful for the character. In this case those are the Ranger feats Track and Endurance.
Yea, between retraining or psychic reformation, chaos shuffling picked feats isn't bad at all. Including class-gained feats seems reasonable to me - it's what, about 5000gp to get one feat traded and traded back at the 1xp:5gp ratio (2 8th level spells + 250xp burn each) if you're getting it from an NPC caster?


I merely mentioned the possibility for the sake of completeness. I think the build stands on its own merits without the cheesy sauce.
Certainly does.

Curmudgeon
2010-06-07, 04:04 PM
Including class-gained feats seems reasonable to me - it's what, about 5000gp to get one feat traded and traded back at the 1xp:5gp ratio (2 8th level spells + 250xp burn each) if you're getting it from an NPC caster?
You got it; it's exactly 4,900 gp for each feat swap. It'll set back plans to get an Eagles' Cry Bow (Dragon Compendium, page 125), which has some really nifty features.
All elves within 30 feet of the bow who can hear it are affected as if by a 15th-level bard's inspire courage ability (granting a +3 morale bonus on saving throws against charm and fear effects and on attack and weapon damage rolls) for that round and for the following 5 rounds.

lsfreak
2010-06-07, 04:09 PM
You would need str for damage.
Not really. You have Dex to damage from Dead Eye, Knowledge to damage from Knowledge Devotion once you trade it in, and Highest Spell Level to damage from Holy Warrior. Strength could safely be dumped to a starting 8 (to 10 with racials) if you absolutely had to. If you could afford higher, certainly take it, but it's not necessary.

You would need dex for the to-hit and later to damage within 30ft.
Correct, and also AC, for what it's worth. It's probably your highest stat.

You wouldn't really need con, but hp's are nice.
As always.

You would sorta need int for skill points for knowledge devotion, and the wiz casting on you ranger slots
Right, but you won't need a lot. The classes you're getting have enough class skills to get you by with even a 12 starting, I believe (racial takes it to 10; 2+Int for cleric and 6+lvl for ranger/seeker), grabbing a +2Int item to make sure you can cast your Wizard spells. My understanding is you'll be using either buffing or no-save wizard spells, so pumping Int isn't that important.

You would VERY MUCH need wisdom for both your spellcasting classes.
Yup, and likely your second-highest stat. Though since you'll likely be using it for buffing spells, and not for as many offensive spells, it doesn't need to be pumped to insane levels - if you absolutely had to, you could start with 13 (using items to boost it so you can cast your spells).

You would need cha for turn attempts and divine metamagics.
Depends on whether you get Persist. Without Persist, a starting 12 with a nightstick (Libris Mortis, Extra Turning in item form and non-cheesy until you get 2+) is plenty. With Persist, you're right.

So really, you *need* Dex. Int, Cha, and Str can safely be 10 without too many problems, though of course higher helps if for no reason other than your WBL going to boosting them a bit. Con and Wis should be as high as you can without sacrificing Dex or dropping those three to below 10.

I'm not sure how you'd do it, but Shiba Protector from Oriental Adventures could be good if you can squeeze in a level - it adds your Wisdom to both attack and damage. The problem is the feat requirement: Alertness, Combat Expertise, and Iron Will. You can get Iron Will from a special 'location treasure' in Complete Scoundrel, but I'm unsure if there's an easy way to get Alertness or Combat Expertise. Without getting at least one for free, it's probably not worth the effort. Of course, if your DM allows you do Chaos Shuffle your racial proficiencies, that's a possibility.

Edit: That... is a very nice bow. Though I might prefer GMW'ing up my own +1 splitting collision bow of wintermoon :smallwink:

Curmudgeon
2010-06-07, 04:31 PM
Let me know If I'm wrong but"
You would need str for damage. It's nice, but not of great import. Buying it up to 14 with point buy (the highest you get without paying a premium) and leaving it there with a +3 mod (including racial bonus) is enough. You'll get much more in damage boosts from Holy Warrior and Knowledge Devotion than from STR mod.

You would need dex for the to-hit and later to damage within 30ft. Absolutely. You'll start with at least 16 DEX (efficient point buy + racial bonus).

You wouldn't really need con, but hp's are nice.
Dump stat. An archer stays out of melee.

You would sorta need int for skill points for knowledge devotion, and the wiz casting on you ranger slots
Not as much as you think. All of the classes (Cloistered Cleric, Mystic Ranger, and Seeker of the Misty Isle) provide (6 + INT mod) skill points each level. There are only 6 Knowledge skills related to creature types, so you'll be able to cover most of them even with a -2 INT racial penalty. Wizard spells stop at level 2, so INT 12 is enough.

You would VERY MUCH need wisdom for both your spellcasting classes.
Absolutely. This is the only stat I'd start at higher than 14 with point buy.

You would need cha for turn attempts and divine metamagics. No, this is another dump stat. I don't seriously contemplate Divine Metamagic for this character because the cost in feats is just too high. Even an 8 CHA is enough to use Travel Devotion for 2 encounters/day.

That is 3 you need high, and 3 you need sorta high. Here's what I'd suggest with 32 point buy:

STR: 14 ==> 16 with racial bonus
DEX: 14 ==> 16 with racial bonus
CON: 12 ==> 10 with racial penalty
INT: 14 ==> 12 with racial penalty
WIS: 16 (This is the one to boost at levels 4, 8, ...)
CHA: 8

Prodan
2010-06-07, 04:32 PM
I never said a studious person can't worship a war god. Worship all you want. Laypeople and warriors worship them all the time. But no war god worth the name is ever going to provide power to a person that sits in a chair all day and reads books. War gods want clerics that are out there on the sharp end of things.

And you know this due to your extensive experience playing God of War?

lsfreak
2010-06-07, 04:37 PM
Well, I do believe I ninja'd Curmudgeon for the first time ever, instead of the reverse. But not knowing the build as well as him, it appears I got a few things wrong (and a few things I'm confused about. Why did I think CC's only got 2+Int skills? :smallsigh:)

Know any ways of getting Combat Expertise or Alertness easily? I'd really want to get Shiba Protector into this kind of build, and I swear I remember ways of getting those more easily than actually taking the feats, but I'm at a loss.

Curmudgeon
2010-06-07, 04:44 PM
Know any ways of getting Combat Expertise or Alertness easily?
Alertness is easy: Ioun Stone - Dark Blue Rhomboid: grants Alertness, as the feat (DMG)

Ruinix
2010-06-08, 11:38 AM
again. factotum 8 / any full cast prc 12 / fighter or scout or ranger 2.


int to everything, exept to hit, but can get true strike so problem solved.

point blank shot and precise shot is a must.

+1 spliting force bow.

get some bane arrows and go to kill things.