(3.5) Halfling Rogue/Wizard advice

[kamuishirou]

I'm looking at playing a Rogue 1/Wizard 2 in a side game for our campaign. (We're trying to save our other characters who were turned to stone.) Does anyone have any advice on if I should specialize or not? And if I do specialize, what schools should I ban?

I'm not that familiar with Wizards in 3.5, and any advice would be great. Thanks in advance.

[Yora]

If you're not good with wizards, like me, I would not specialize.
Apparently some people build stronger characters by specializing, but I just can't imagine having to ban two schools just for one additional spell slot per level. It hardly seems woth it to me.

If you want to augment your rogue abilities, and already have a main arcane caster in the party, it might be a different thing. A stealth character doesn't need fireballs and necromancy.

[tiercel]

What role do you see yourself playing with this character?

If you are looking at playing a true rogue/wiz hybrid, you're probably thinking of aiming for a PrC like Arcane Trickster (without a hybrid prestige class, you'll never be able to try and fill both roles much beyond the lowest level). You'll want to make sure you take spells you can Sneak Attack with.

If you are looking for a rogue-skilled spellcaster, you might want to consider the Beguiler base class from PHB II -- basically it's a predesigned illusion/enchantment-loaded sorcerer with a rogue skill list.

If you're looking for a magically-enhanced rogue, you'll probably want to just take a minimal number of wizard levels and pick out spells that will be useful enhancements to your rogueishness (sneak attacking constructs, detecting magic, finding secret doors without time consuming Search checks, etc), and stick to as much rogue (and sneak attack) as possible.

Where and how you specialize will depend heavily on the role you see your character playing. If you don't have the stats to support significant Int/DCs for your attacking spells, you'll be more likely to pick buff-heavy spell selections.

Knowing what you want to do will tell you more about whether and what specialization is worth it. In general terms, Illusion is a rogue-ish flavored kind of school (silent image goes a long way by itself), Transmutation tends to be full of handy buffs, Conjuration just has too much good everything (not to mention mage armor, if you are going armorless). You should probably consider dropping Enchantment as one of your schools (since at least classically it tends to focus more on save-or-doomed type spells, which needs cranked DCs).

Remember if you specialize, your specialized spells aren't any *better* for specializing, you just get one extra spell per spell level to cast, from your specialized school.

[kamuishirou]

Thanks for the advice so far.

I was more looking toward Wizard with a splash of Rogue. My stats aren't very high, so thanks for the information about the DC save. I don't see this character lasting long, it's just for a side adventure, so I was looking at short term goals. We don't have a caster in the party and our current classes are:

Paladin
Barbarian
Monk
Cleric
Ranger

So, I was looking at playing heavy wizard after a 1st level of Rogue to get alot of skills and sneak attack.

If you're curious, here are my stats:

Str 10
Dex 16
Con 13
Int 14
Wis 11
Cha 11

Thanks again.

[tiercel]

We don't have a caster in the party and our current classes are:

Paladin
Barbarian
Monk
Cleric
Ranger

So, I was looking at playing heavy wizard after a 1st level of Rogue to get alot of skills and sneak attack.

If you have no real straight caster in the party, that's kind of an argument for considering not specializing (since you'll have to do anything the party needs of arcane casting).

Though a little sneak attack is nice in principle, you're not going to want to bring your 6+2d4+3hp character into melee with his +1 BAB and no armor. Sure, if you can catch someone flat-footed, it will give your acid splash a little more oomph, but it's not all that. I'd assume you're going to mostly work on keeping your trapfinding "we need a rogue for this" skills maxed, and otherwise being playing a wizard.

For a nearly-generic wizard, if you're gonna specialize then Conjuration always has something useful and you don't lose *too* much general utility by dropping Enchantment + Necromancy. (If you're mostly/all Core, and can live through the low levels without sleep, ray of enfeeblement, and false life, then having an extra mage armor/grease and glitterdust/web is probably worth it.)

Figure out which skills you'll really need to cover. If it's not enough, as I mentioned Beguilers make really good arcane skillmonkeys (though you won't cover nearly as much arcane breadth -- OTOH, if it's going to be mostly a low-level campaign, supporting the raw melee power of the rest of the group is a fine way to go anyhow).

Also if you are playing wizard, use some of your starting cash to have some scrolls on hand -- either for spells that are useful but you can't afford to just keep memorized all the time, or as backups when you're out of spells for the day. You get Scribe Scroll as a bonus feat after all, and when you're out of spells you're probably better off burning a scroll of enlarge person on one of your melee friends than trying to pick ppl off with a Small bow (or moving into melee).

[kamuishirou]

If you have no real straight caster in the party, that's kind of an argument for considering not specializing (since you'll have to do anything the party needs of arcane casting).

Though a little sneak attack is nice in principle, you're not going to want to bring your 6+2d4+3hp character into melee with his +1 BAB and no armor. Sure, if you can catch someone flat-footed, it will give your acid splash a little more oomph, but it's not all that. I'd assume you're going to mostly work on keeping your trapfinding "we need a rogue for this" skills maxed, and otherwise being playing a wizard.

For a nearly-generic wizard, if you're gonna specialize then Conjuration always has something useful and you don't lose *too* much general utility by dropping Enchantment + Necromancy. (If you're mostly/all Core, and can live through the low levels without sleep, ray of enfeeblement, and false life, then having an extra mage armor/grease and glitterdust/web is probably worth it.)

Figure out which skills you'll really need to cover. If it's not enough, as I mentioned Beguilers make really good arcane skillmonkeys (though you won't cover nearly as much arcane breadth -- OTOH, if it's going to be mostly a low-level campaign, supporting the raw melee power of the rest of the group is a fine way to go anyhow).

Also if you are playing wizard, use some of your starting cash to have some scrolls on hand -- either for spells that are useful but you can't afford to just keep memorized all the time, or as backups when you're out of spells for the day. You get Scribe Scroll as a bonus feat after all, and when you're out of spells you're probably better off burning a scroll of enlarge person on one of your melee friends than trying to pick ppl off with a Small bow (or moving into melee).

Thanks for all your help. We are a core only group and I was planning on spending some cash on scrolls. I think with the scrolls I won't have to specialize and look to be backline support.

Thanks again, I really appreciate it.

[Mongoose87]

I'd argue the opposite - the shortage of arcane casting in your party makes an extra spell slot invaluable, especially if you get it by giving up the two weakest schools, enchantment and evocation.

[Greenish]

Logic Ninja's Being Batman (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104002) is a good guide for playing a support wizard.

For rogue1/wizardX, I suggest you next look into Unseen Seer from Complete Mage. It advances your wizard casting to the full, gives you handy skills and even a few more SA dice. It practically requires Practiced Spellcaster though.

[Godskook]

As I'm currently playing a rogue/wizard in a party without an utility caster(we have a cleric and an blaster-evoker), let me recommend:

1.Go focused specialist, in Conjuration.
-Ban Evocation, you don't need to deal damage, since you have a party for that.
-Ban Enchantment, its one of the least newbie friendly school, and also one of the weakest in versatility. Either is a good reason to ban a school of magic for new players.
-Ban either Illusion or Necromancy as your 3rd banned school. Illusion is hard to use, so if you're new to the system, I'd ban that.

2.Can I talk you into Human? For many rogues *or* wizards, Halflings work well, but for the Rogue/Wizard, access to Able Learner, a feat from Races of Destiny, is critical in my opinion.

3.Find your prestige class now! The two options I'm familiar with are Unseen Seer and Daggerspell Mage. I'm away from book, or I'd go over them more closely.

I'll post back with more help 'after' work, as I need to go do that now.

[tiercel]

We are a core only group ....

Ah! Well this of course makes a difference -- a fair amount of the advice, mine and others, doesn't necessarily apply if you are sticking to core.

Specializing isn't a terrible option, given it gets you that extra spell per spell level per day, you just want to make sure you lose the least number of things you might need generally -- if you're willing to have/buy/make and use scrolls, you're right that they will help fill in the gaps. (Just remember that scroll DCs will be even lower than yours, so in general keep them to buff/utility uses. or spells that don't give saves.)


I'd argue the opposite - the shortage of arcane casting in your party makes an extra spell slot invaluable, especially if you get it by giving up the two weakest schools, enchantment and evocation.

I know that evocation is generally hardly the strongest *focus* for wizards (area effect battlefield control effects generally prove much stronger) but.... often parties do rely on wizards, at least at times, for area-effect damage, even if that damage is not strong. At low levels (Wiz 1-4) there's not much of that to be had, so whether evocation will be necessary here will depend on the extent to which the rest of the party is capable of significant ranged attacks.

If most or all the melee types are willing and reasonably competent at using secondary ranged weapons (and esp. if the ranger is archery focused), then I would tend to agree that the ranged damage attacks of Evocation should prove pretty unnecessary here. If the melee characters are light on backup ranged options (and don't have great Dex), then the ability to throw the occasional scorching ray or magic missiles might be really useful.

[Pluto]

Thanks for all your help. We are a core only group and I was planning on spending some cash on scrolls. I think with the scrolls I won't have to specialize and look to be backline support..

Be sure to buff up on the ways to generate ranged sneak attacks.

Typically this is done by:
-Forcing balance checks via Grease, etc.
-Forcing grapple checks via summons, Black tentacles, etc.
-Blind the target via Color Spray, Glitterdust, blindness/deafness, etc.
-Make yourself hard to see via Blink, Greater Invisibility, etc.

Unless you go evil, a Core Rogue/Wizard is typically built toward either Rogue 1/Wizard 6/Loremaster X (to focus on casting ability with Rogue skill caps) or Rogue 3/Wizard 5/Arcane Trickster X (to focus on Sneak Attack and skills).

In your situation, I'd probably ban Abjuration and either Evocation or Necromancy to specialize in Conjuration or Illusion.
[Ban explanations: Abjuration's primary use in Core is Dispels, which can be done better by a straight-classed Cleric. Besides Enervation, Necromancy offers very little that is relevant to the skillmonkey role or to sneak attack abilities. Evocation lets you sneak attack with Scorching Rays and eventually cast contingencies, but that's about it.]

[Specialization explanations: Conjuration provides a deep toolbox for a utility character with its Teleports, Summoning, Calling and Creations, as well as some of the most efficient ways to render a target vulnerable to sneak attacks. Illusions are fantastic tools for a deceiver, Invisibility is handy for stealth and Sneak Attacks and some spells like Mirror Image, Displacement, and Invisibility act as powerful defenses.]

[Justifying keeping Enchantment: The school is 9 levels of rehashing the same spell concept, so in that sense, it isn't versatile. But the spell concept is "make a creature do what you want" - essentially an open-ended ability list to add to your party's repertoire. Yes, many creatures are immune to it, but they aren't immune to the big stupid fighter/owlbear/whatever who you've turned into your bitch. Unlike Abjuration, Evocation and Necromancy, Enchantment is not an effect available to the rest of the group, and it is a powerful effect - especially at low levels, and especially in core.]

Good luck!

[Keld Denar]

If you want to focus on the spellcasting without losing as many CLs as you want, but still want to get into Arcane Trickster, you can get in as like, a Rogue1/Wizard6/Assassin1/AT10/X2. This only loses 2 spellcaster levels, but gives you more SA.

Also, in a core only situation, I'd actually suggest against dropping Evocation. It has most of the weaponlike spells in core, so you won't be SAing much with your spells if you drop it. There are still SOME, but not a lot (Enervation is the biggest one I can think of).

[PId6]

If it's core only, you lose a lot of options, but you also lose the rules for volley attacks (Rules Compendium and I think Complete Mage), meaning you can abuse Scorching Ray and get Sneak Attack damage on each of the rays.

[Keld Denar]

Volley rules are in Complete Arcane, and technically the Weaponlike Spells rule is in there as well...