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Raistlin1040
2010-06-06, 01:51 PM
Alright, ladies and gentlemen, it is time for an epic challenge of epic proportions. The task? Level 7 bard. No race restrictions. No PrC restrictions. This party is already absurdly stacked, so my general qualms with powergaming like a boss are so far out the window. With that in mind, how absurdly OP can I make this (generally) underpowered class? Pathfinder Bard is also approved. This is a 3.5 game.

WarKitty
2010-06-06, 02:02 PM
Alright, ladies and gentlemen, it is time for an epic challenge of epic proportions. The task? Level 7 bard. No race restrictions. No PrC restrictions. This party is already absurdly stacked, so my general qualms with powergaming like a boss are so far out the window. With that in mind, how absurdly OP can I make this (generally) underpowered class? Pathfinder Bard is also approved. This is a 3.5 game.

Leadership?

Raistlin1040
2010-06-06, 02:07 PM
That was my first thought. That is apparently the one restriction, in that it's a feat that only 2 of the 6 PCs (sometimes 7) get, at DM discrection, in some kind of story event.

Flickerdart
2010-06-06, 02:08 PM
Behold the Bardzilla link in my signature. 7th level Bard gets you Persisted Glibness, or you can swing Bladeweave and daze your way to victory.

Marriclay
2010-06-06, 02:10 PM
Behold the Bardzilla link in my signature. 7th level Bard gets you Persisted Glibness, or you can swing Bladeweave and daze your way to victory.

definitely seconded

Raistlin1040
2010-06-06, 02:16 PM
I'm running on very little sleep, due to being kept up all night by a crying robot baby, so I'm going to need this explained to me. If I can't take Metamagic Song until 9th level, I don't see how this works.

Although, given that I was sort of invited to powergame, I can probably take flaws.

Beorn080
2010-06-06, 02:17 PM
From the SRD, use the variant bard that grants animal companion in exchange for bardic knowledge and the inspire line of songs. At level 7, you can start with a Dire Ape. With all the bards buff spells, you can pump it nicely. Plus, Alter Self. I'm sure there is something out there that shares a type with Dire Ape that is even nastier.

Vaynor
2010-06-06, 02:18 PM
Badge of Valor item(CAd): +1 to Inspire Courage
Song of the Heart feat(Ebberon): +1 to Inspire Courage
Inspirational Boost spell(CAd): +1 to Inspire Courage
Masterwork Instrument(CAd): +1 to Inspire Courage if you pick the right type. These are found in the Complete Adventurer.
Words of Creation(BoED): Doubles your Inspire Courage Bonus. You take some nonlethal damage though, but you can work around that easily.
Dragonfire Inspiration feat(Dragon Magic): converts your Inspire Courage bonus of x into elemental damage of xd6. Default is fire, if you have the blood of, say, a silver dragon from being a Silverbrow Human, you can toggle between fire and cold damage.
Melodic Casting feat(CMage): allows you to use a Perform check in place of Concentration for spells, as well as letting you cast spells while you sing.
Lingering Song feat(CAd): Your bard song lasts for 10 rounds after you finish singing.
OR
Harmonizing Weapon enchantment(MIC): Your weapon will hold a song for you for 10 rounds. This allows you to use regular Inspire Courage and Dragonfire Inspiration at the same time.
Gloves of the Balanced Hand item(MIC), gives you TWF if you don't have it already.
Snowflake Wardance feat(Frostburn): adds your Charisma modifier to attack rolls with light slashing weapons that you wield in one hand. Costs one use of bardic music to activate as a swift action.
Songblade(CAd): +1 bardic music per day
Song of the White Raven (ToB): swift action singing

So basically you have an IC bonus of 12 at 9th level when you can pull this all off. That's +12 attack and damage, as well as +12d6 fire or cold damage.

Spend two rounds singing, a different song each time, then buff the party with Haste, cast some other spells if necessary, and then wade in and TWF everything in sight to death.

Quote from someone a while back, I forget who, I just saved it in a text document.

Also, Sublime Chord is the way to go, or a quick dip into Seeker of the Song for their nifty abilities.

@v: He's not always going to be level 7. :smallwink:

Flickerdart
2010-06-06, 02:20 PM
I'm running on very little sleep, due to being kept up all night by a crying robot baby, so I'm going to need this explained to me. If I can't take Metamagic Song until 9th level, I don't see how this works.

Although, given that I was sort of invited to powergame, I can probably take flaws.
With flaws, it goes like this:
Flaw: Heighten Spell
Flaw: Talfirian Song
Human: Extend Spell
1st: Metamagic Song
3rd: Persist Spell
6th: Extra Music

If you can get your hands on the Planning domain through some kind of cheese or Cleric dip, you get Extend Spell for free.

Quote from someone a while back, I forget who, I just saved it in a text document.

Also, Sublime Chord is the way to go, or a quick dip into Seeker of the Song for their nifty abilities.
You can only enter those at 10th level, sadly.

Starbuck_II
2010-06-06, 02:23 PM
With flaws, it goes like this:
Flaw: Heighten Spell
Flaw: Talfirian Song
Human: Extend Spell
1st: Metamagic Song
3rd: Persist Spell
6th: Extra Music


You could be Illumian or another Human subtype for Talfirian, but that bonus feat is nice.

Flickerdart
2010-06-06, 02:25 PM
Yep. If that extra skill point didn't mean you could dump INT to the dogs, I'd suggest Silverbrow Human for access to Practical Metamagic and Dragonfire Inspiration.

Hendel
2010-06-06, 02:27 PM
With flaws, it goes like this:
Flaw: Heighten Spell
Flaw: Talfirian Song
Human: Extend Spell
1st: Metamagic Song
3rd: Persist Spell
6th: Extra Music

If you can get your hands on the Planning domain through some kind of cheese or Cleric dip, you get Extend Spell for free.

You can only enter those at 10th level, sadly.

Where would I find Talfirian Song?

Pluto
2010-06-06, 02:27 PM
Pathfinder Bard is also approved.
Does that mean you have to use it?:smallyuk:

Raistlin1040
2010-06-06, 02:28 PM
So, if I'm reading this right, at level 7 and with Extra Music, I get one 3rd level and 1 2nd level spell all day long?

Flickerdart
2010-06-06, 02:28 PM
Talfirian Song is a general feat in Races of Faerun.


So, if I'm reading this right, at level 7 and with Extra Music, I get one 3rd level and 1 2nd level spell all day long?
Sadly, you'd only have 11 Bardic Music uses and will be able to Persist but a single spell of any level (since Metamagic Song requires you to pay the entire cost of the metamagic). Next level you will have 12 uses of Bardic Music, and will be able to Persist two spells.

Raistlin1040
2010-06-06, 02:34 PM
Ah. But if I dip in Cleric for a free Extend Spell, for extra Extra Music later, I get 14 uses, so 2 persisted spells and 2 uses left.

Flickerdart
2010-06-06, 02:38 PM
If you dip Cleric you won't have 3rd level spells, but will have 14 Bardic Music uses, yes. I recommend Cloistered Cleric (UA) since you get Knowledge domain for free, which you can swap for Knowledge Devotion. Travel is another good domain because Travel Devotion kicks ass.

Raistlin1040
2010-06-06, 02:47 PM
Hm. Well Persisted Glibness is what I'm shooting for, but since I think he might try to kill me for being rather Glib, I probably need the persisted Displacement too. So, looking for cheese extra music. To the internet.

The Glyphstone
2010-06-06, 02:48 PM
Another vote for Inspire Courage min/maxing. Because (Powergaming melee + Powergaming bard = Powergaming party^2)

Vaynor
2010-06-06, 02:57 PM
Another vote for Inspire Courage min/maxing. Because (Powergaming melee + Powergaming bard = Powergaming party^2)

Precisely, the bardzilla build is all well and good but inspire courage doesn't just help you, it helps your entire party. A lot.

PId6
2010-06-06, 03:44 PM
Besides Bardzilla, there's also Inspire Courage optimization, as had been suggested. You can do pretty absurd things to the party damage output with proper optimization there.

Savage Bard 7
Race: Any
Int >= 15, Cha >= 15

Feats:

Flaw: Dragontouched (DM)
Flaw: Dragon Heritage [Battle] (RotD)
1: Dragonfire Inspiration [Sonic] (DM)
3: Song of the Heart (ECS)
6: Words of Creation (BoED)

Spells:

Whirling Blade (SpC)
Inspirational Boost (SpC)
Creaking Cacophony (SpC)

Items:

Masterwork Mandolin [CV]
Badge of Valor (MIC)
Vest of Legends (DMG2) - Once you can afford it

At your level, you're going to have Inspire Courage +5 attack/+3 damage with Song of the Heart, Inspirational Boost, Masterwork Mandolin, and Badge of Valor, which doubles and becomes +10d6 sonic damage thanks to Words of Creation and Dragonfire Inspiration. If you further cast Creaking Cacophony, enemies gain weakness to sonic, so that's 50% more damage, meaning essentially +15d6 sonic damage to each ally's attacks.

Whirling Blade is meant for mixing it up in damage of your own, letting you deal massive damage to swarms of enemies thanks to your own Dragonfire Inspiration.

Eldariel
2010-06-06, 03:47 PM
Yep. If that extra skill point didn't mean you could dump INT to the dogs, I'd suggest Silverbrow Human for access to Practical Metamagic and Dragonfire Inspiration.

Well, you want Words of Creation anyways, so you can't dump Int.

Vaynor
2010-06-06, 04:17 PM
Besides Bardzilla, there's also Inspire Courage optimization, as had been suggested. You can do pretty absurd things to the party damage output with proper optimization there.

Savage Bard 7
Race: Any
Int >= 15, Cha >= 15

Feats:

Flaw: Dragontouched (DM)

If you go Silverbrow Human you can forgo the Dragontouched feat, which gets you two extra feats essentially.

Greenish
2010-06-06, 04:18 PM
this (generally) underpowered class:smallconfused:

I thought this thread was about bards?

Flickerdart
2010-06-06, 04:19 PM
Well, you want Words of Creation anyways, so you can't dump Int.
For Inspire Courage optimization, yes, but that's really all Words of Creation is good for.

PId6
2010-06-06, 04:26 PM
If you go Silverbrow Human you can forgo the Dragontouched feat, which gets you two extra feats essentially.
No, Dragon Heritage requires Sorcerer 1, and Dragontouched is the only way around that. You need Dragon Heritage to change Dragonfire Inspiration's damage from fire (which is easily resisted) to sonic (which is not).

Vaynor
2010-06-06, 04:34 PM
No, Dragon Heritage requires Sorcerer 1, and Dragontouched is the only way around that. You need Dragon Heritage to change Dragonfire Inspiration's damage from fire (which is easily resisted) to sonic (which is not).

Oh, my mistake. Never mind.

Eldariel
2010-06-06, 05:40 PM
For Inspire Courage optimization, yes, but that's really all Words of Creation is good for.

It has very nice uses with Inspire Greatness too.

Tinydwarfman
2010-06-06, 10:19 PM
It has very nice uses with Inspire Greatness too.

Outside of using those extra HD and skillpoints for early entry?

Eldariel
2010-06-07, 01:18 AM
Outside of using those extra HD and skillpoints for early entry?

"Extra HD" is a bit too all-encompassing statement to say "outside"; all Insp. Greatness is useful for is definitely based on extra Hit Dice, but they do much more than enable early entry - e.g. Polymorph loves Inspire Greatness, and if you happen to have Practiced Spellcaster, you get nice extra caster levels. +4 with Words of Creation, only +2 otherwise. And Competence-bonus to attacks is quite hard to acquire, and thus quite useful.

Keld Denar
2010-06-07, 01:22 AM
Don't forget about Cleric + Practiced Spellcaster meets Inspire Greatness + Holy Word absurdity. I mean, tack that on to Divine Spell Power, the Good Domain, and an Orange IWIN Stone and you've got up to a +10 CL bonus going also you to auto-paralyze anything with 5 HD more than your CL.

Wings of Peace
2010-06-07, 02:39 AM
Personally I enjoy Dragonfire Inspiration + Master Thrower + Skullmarbles from Ghostwalk. Lots of touch attack per round and dragonfire inspiration grants the marbles damage against everyone. Not to mention you can throw handfulls of marbles. And of course with skillfull planning you can get Maneuvers via Song of the White Raven if I'm remembering feat names right.

For Valor
2010-06-07, 10:18 PM
Oh, dear God... I saw Bardzilla on here.

Do NOT use that. It's a lie. A complete lie.

Honestly, if you want a decent bard, you'll have to play it out to level 7 before going into other classes. Two of the best Bard builds go as such:

Bard 7/Master Thrower 2/Druid 1/Sublime Chord 1/Fochlucan Lyrist 9, and
Bard 7/Master Thrower 2/Druid 1/Fochlucan Lyrist 10

But just don't use Bardzilla. It's about as legal as Pun-pun, which means it takes advantage of slightly ambiguous wording to try and break the game.

EDIT: Fochlucan Lyrist is the best thing you can do for a Bard without pun-punning your way to Hell. Honestly, the best kind of bard at level 7 is Bard 1/Wizard 6... at least you can grab armored caster and wear something protective for when people try to smack you up.

Keld Denar
2010-06-07, 10:37 PM
Seriously? Fochlucan Lyrist is pretty bad. Most hybred casters are pretty bad. The one with Sublime Chord is ok, but you could do better.

Bard5/LyricThamaturgue4/Virtuoso1/SublimeChord2/Virtuoso+8 is pretty much the hallmark of bardic bardyness.

Alternatively
Bard5/Mindbender1/Bard+3/Virtuoso1/SublimeChord2/Virtuoso+8 is decent as well, if you are taking Mindsight (LoM)

Pluto
2010-06-07, 11:30 PM
But just don't use Bardzilla. It's about as legal as Pun-pun, which means it takes advantage of slightly ambiguous wording to try and break the game.

EDIT: Fochlucan Lyrist is the best thing you can do for a Bard without pun-punning your way to Hell. Honestly, the best kind of bard at level 7 is Bard 1/Wizard 6... at least you can grab armored caster and wear something protective for when people try to smack you up.
Haha.




But yeah, the Bardzilla thing doesn't work until higher levels, relies on obscure sourcebooks and has rather unimpressive results.

IC focus works brilliantly from level 1, its most obscure source is Eberron Campaign Setting; it allows more freedom in later-level resources and is very friendly to PrC's and multiclassing.

You can even make a solid (though not particularly overwhelming bard) with a straight-classed Bard 20. Use Bardic Knack (PHB2) with Jack of All Trades* (CAdv) and Improvisation (SpC) to skillmonkey, use an Echoblade (MIC) with Lesser Crystals of Returning (MIC), Iajitsu Focus (OA), Knowledge Devotion (CC) to be a powerful melee presence. Buff yourself and the party further with a few IC boosters (mentioned earlier).

Maybe add Snowflake Wardance (Frost), if you find a way to make 1-handed fighting worthwhile. (With significant ability damage or other tag-along effects, the bonus to attack rolls could conceivably make it worthwhile.)

*No, this combination doesn't work by RAW, but JoAT doesn't do anything by RAW. I don't think this is an unreasonable interpretation of the ways the ACF and feat should interact and it is a neat way for them to interact.

For Valor
2010-06-07, 11:50 PM
But yeah, the Bardzilla thing doesn't work until higher levels, relies on obscure sourcebooks and has rather unimpressive results.



Sorry, did I say it was mechanically unsound? No.
Did I say it was bad because of its sources? No.
Did I say its results were supposed to be impressive? No.

Please learn what I'm saying and try to put the background in perspective before running your mouth.

Bardzilla's just annoying. Literally, the text to Metamagic Song says "You cannot use the Metamagic Song feat to add metamagic feats that would make the spell’s effective level higher than the highest level of the spell that you can cast normally."

Normally. If you have to take 3 feats and mesh the ideas of "Heightened Spell Level" vs. "Spell Level", then you're not normal.

And why would you use Bardzilla? For something like +30 on your Bluff check, so you can get Telepathy of some kind on yourself to bluff yourself out of any encounter and then beg your DM to give you EXP for "solving the encounter". Completely NOT Dungeons and Dragons.

@Keld Denar:

No, the Fochlucan Lyrist isn't bad. Average increase in tier is 1 for FL, which is pretty average compared to most prestige classes. FL is only "bad" because it's not crazy like IotSV. However, I did forget about SC in this case, and would agree that it's a good choice.

Pluto
2010-06-07, 11:53 PM
Please learn what I'm saying and try to put the background in perspective before running your mouth.
I agreed with your general statement to avoid Bardzilla and voiced my own reasons for doing so.

...Sorry? :smallconfused:

AstralFire
2010-06-07, 11:55 PM
I agreed with your general statement to avoid Bardzilla and voiced my own reasons for doing so.

...Sorry? :smallconfused:

This'll learn you not to agree with people! (?)

Also, regardless of what level of optimization you're on, taking a level of Bard so that you can be a Wizard with armor is a bad idea. Esp. since I don't think Armored Caster feats even work that way.

And a straight 20 Bard with no cheese is one of the best classes in the game, as it has a variety of powerful options but is not an unstoppable or world-changing juggernaut. It's hard to completely mess up a Bard, and they don't require splat to get interesting options at all - they just benefit from splat to get additional options. So. Uh. Yeah.

Jarian
2010-06-07, 11:59 PM
And why would you use Bardzilla? For something like +30 on your Bluff check, so you can get Telepathy of some kind on yourself to bluff yourself out of any encounter and then beg your DM to give you EXP for "solving the encounter". Completely NOT Dungeons and Dragons.

http://media.giantbomb.com/uploads/0/7132/941601-874903_justyouropinion_super_super.jpg

Did you seriously just go "You're playing D&D wrong because I said so" on everyone? Because I think you did.

AstralFire
2010-06-08, 12:03 AM
http://media.giantbomb.com/uploads/0/7132/941601-874903_justyouropinion_super_super.jpg

Did you seriously just go "You're playing D&D wrong because I said so" on everyone? Because I think you did.

Have I ever mentioned that I think you're awesome? Like... 2/3 of your posts are pithy awesomeness. :P

Keld Denar
2010-06-08, 12:05 AM
The only time one classes armored casting splashes over to another is when you dip Spellthief and take Master Spellthief.

In no other way can you take the Armored Mage feature of Beguilers, Warmages, Duskblades, Bards, or any other class with it and apply it to Wizard casting. There ARE ways to wear armor as a wizard, but taking a level of an armored caster is not one of them.

Jarian
2010-06-08, 12:05 AM
Have I ever mentioned that I think you're awesome? Like... 2/3 of your posts are pithy awesomeness. :P

You haven't. I forgive you though, since it's easy to lose track with all the awesome on the boards.

Edit: Keld, for example. He can ninja you in the time it takes to type twenty nineteen words.

AstralFire
2010-06-08, 12:07 AM
It's only a ninja if he's saying the same thing. :smallamused:

Keld Denar
2010-06-08, 12:08 AM
Rawr! Cause I have nothing better to do then sit around hitting refresh every 4-5 seconds (depending on brain-finger relay time) hoping to find a post where I can post a scathing refutation of the ideas presented therein.

Doublerawr!

Jarian
2010-06-08, 12:08 AM
It's only a ninja if he's saying the same thing. :smallamused:

No, see, he's awesome enough to stretch the standard definition and make me go back and snag a quote for clarity and who uses commas anyway they're for squares.


Rawr! Cause I have nothing better to do then sit around hitting refresh every 4-5 seconds (depending on brain-finger relay time) hoping to find a post where I can post a scathing refutation of the ideas presented therein.

Oh, so we have something in common. At least for a few hours a day, anyway. :smalltongue:

AstralFire
2010-06-08, 12:10 AM
Rawr! Cause I have nothing better to do then sit around hitting refresh every 4-5 seconds (depending on brain-finger relay time) hoping to find a post where I can post a scathing refutation of the ideas presented therein.

Doublerawr!

It's okay. This is all a front for my viral marketing scheme.


Oh, so we have something in common. At least for a few hours a day, anyway. :smalltongue:

This is where you two do the megazord combining sequence, right?

For Valor
2010-06-08, 12:11 AM
@Pluto: Really? Well piss... "but yeah" is slang on The Gaming Den for "You're an idiot." I got on the defensive immediately. Totally my bad.

@Jarian: Please find me 10 intelligent monster encounters that the Bard can't solve using his Free Action to telepathically communicate with all creatures involved and tell them to run away.

Also, free Suggestion at will.

So, if you're a fan of the Bard being terrible at all encounters where the opponents have powergamed sense motives or are immune to Mind-inflencing effects, and then auto-winning encounters that don't fulfill either of the requirements... well, I suppose the only thing I can say to you is lurk moar that I will probably never play a game with you. But that's not an insult in any way.

Jarian
2010-06-08, 12:11 AM
As a matter of fact... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WKIgtACGayM)

Well, that went off topic fast.


I will probably never play a game with you.

:smallfrown:

AstralFire
2010-06-08, 12:13 AM
@Pluto: Really? Well piss... "but yeah" is slang on The Gaming Den for "You're an idiot." I got on the defensive immediately. Totally my bad.

@Jarian: Please find me 10 intelligent monster encounters that the Bard can't solve using his Free Action to telepathically communicate with all creatures involved and tell them to run away.

Also, free Suggestion at will.

So, if you're a fan of the Bard being terrible at all encounters where the opponents have powergamed sense motives or are immune to Mind-inflencing effects, and then auto-winning encounters that don't fulfill either of the requirements... well, I suppose the only thing I can say to you is lurk moar that I will probably never play a game with you. But that's not an insult in any way.

A bluff check made as part of general interaction always takes at least 1 round (and is at least a full-round action), but it can take much longer if you try something elaborate.

That takes care of your free action.

And we've said nothing about the awesomeness of Bard Songs. Or the bard's fairly strong utility spell list even in core or UMD as a class skill.

Keld Denar
2010-06-08, 12:17 AM
A bluff check made as part of general interaction always takes at least 1 round (and is at least a full-round action), but it can take much longer if you try something elaborate.


Naberius, the Grinning Hound would like to have a quick word with you. A 3 second conversation, tops...

AstralFire
2010-06-08, 12:20 AM
Binder != Bard.

Keld Denar
2010-06-08, 12:23 AM
Binder...probably the 2nd best 1 level dip ever printed...second only to Cloistered Cleric or MAYBE 3rd behind Spirit Lion Barbarian.

AstralFire
2010-06-08, 12:28 AM
Either way, it's not a free action, so that negates 'Bard insta wins all encounters ever without superior sense motive because of Bluff.'

For Valor
2010-06-08, 12:29 AM
A bluff check made as part of general interaction always takes at least 1 round (and is at least a full-round action), but it can take much longer if you try something elaborate.

That takes care of your free action.

And we've said nothing about the awesomeness of Bard Songs. Or the bard's fairly strong utility spell list even in core or UMD as a class skill.

Major Vocabulary: General Interaction.

As opposed to "I am God and I will kill you all if you don't turn tail and run now."

There is no ruling on quick bluff checks, they way there is ruling on quick Diplomacy checks. Houserule it however you want, but it makes most sense to subtract 10 or 20 from the check... which still doesn't negate glibness completely, and you'd still win at everything forever.

EDIT: Yes, the excellent utility spell list and UMD are what prevents the bard from being tier 6. They don't make it useful.

And the bardzilla would win its encounters no matter what actions it had to take, seeing as they all happen on his turn. You could even ask your buddy to throw Haste on you if you want.

AstralFire
2010-06-08, 12:40 AM
Sorry, bucko, but you're the one who's leaning into houserule territory just to claim the Bard is in truenamer levels of broke. Core gives you a guideline on Bluff checks; you're the one saying that your specific type of check is an exception.

Explain to me how a spell list that includes a number of the better low to medium level spells from the Sorcerer/Wizard list, at full caster level, not suffering from MAD, is anything near Tier 6? Core Bard isn't a Sorcerer or Wizard, but it sure as hell isn't a Fighter or Monk, even without UMD.

Keld Denar
2010-06-08, 12:47 AM
EDIT: Yes, the excellent utility spell list and UMD are what prevents the bard from being tier 6. They don't make it useful.

LOL? Inspire Courage is probably a bards STRONGEST feature. Its a force multiplier. Just on the bard alone, its pretty awesome. Stack on a couple of the bards friends, cohorts, followers, or hired mooks with longbows, and you've got a TON of vicarious damage just waiting for a target to sink into. Its also easy to optimize. There are maybe a dozen spells, items, and feats that all augement IC to awesome proportions, even early. You could EASILY do a +5/+5 bard song by 3rd level, maybe 4th, depending on how you are allowed to spend WBL.

If a bard JUST had Inspire Courage, they'd be T4ish. But instead they have spells, a great skill list with the points to back it up, and a couple other moderatly decent abilities.

AstralFire
2010-06-08, 12:48 AM
Yeah, like I said, I've been avoiding Bard Song because it requires non-core supplementation to get really good - but damn is it good, and with little effort.

For Valor
2010-06-08, 01:14 AM
Sorry, bucko, but you're the one who's leaning into houserule territory just to claim the Bard is in truenamer levels of broke. Core gives you a guideline on Bluff checks; you're the one saying that your specific type of check is an exception.

Explain to me how a spell list that includes a number of the better low to medium level spells from the Sorcerer/Wizard list, at full caster level, not suffering from MAD, is anything near Tier 6? Core Bard isn't a Sorcerer or Wizard, but it sure as hell isn't a Fighter or Monk, even without UMD.

Then tell me how to make a bluff check with only one line, seeing as the bardzilla can do it. If he can't, alright, he does it in a full action and wins automatically anyway...

Sorc/Wiz doesn't suffer from MAD. The bard doesn't have Cloudkill, Love's Pain, or any of the truly useful spells that the Sorc/Wiz has. It gains its spells slower and it only gets through level 6 (the reason its spells need to be of a lower level. The bard never learns levels 7-9. BIG disadvantage). And yes, it's better than a fighter... but fighter's suck and everyone knows it.

For Valor
2010-06-08, 01:17 AM
LOL? Inspire Courage is probably a bards STRONGEST feature. Its a force multiplier. Just on the bard alone, its pretty awesome. Stack on a couple of the bards friends, cohorts, followers, or hired mooks with longbows, and you've got a TON of vicarious damage just waiting for a target to sink into. Its also easy to optimize. There are maybe a dozen spells, items, and feats that all augement IC to awesome proportions, even early. You could EASILY do a +5/+5 bard song by 3rd level, maybe 4th, depending on how you are allowed to spend WBL.

If a bard JUST had Inspire Courage, they'd be T4ish. But instead they have spells, a great skill list with the points to back it up, and a couple other moderatly decent abilities.

. . . Alright, let's pretend all of the Bard's stuff is awesome. Since it obviously must be if you're fawning over it so much, pray tell why the bard is a low T3 that gets outperformed by Batman through the Psionic Warrior and Duskblade.

On a sidenote, how did we get from me complaining over Bardzilla to arguing whether the Bard is halfway decent or not?

EDIT: And isn't Inspire Courage the thing that applies +5 max (at high levels when melee and ranged attacks start becoming useless) to attacks and damage rolls? Oh yeah, that's a fantastic ability. Capable of bringing the bard from tier 6 to... tier 6.

Keld Denar
2010-06-08, 01:34 AM
First of all, edit your posts. Double posting tends to be frowned on (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/announcement.php?a=1).

Second, we started argueing about it when you made the declaration that bards would be T6, except that they have UMD.

Bard is ranked low T3 ONLY because it tends to require a fair number of sourcebooks to exceed that. MIC, SpC, Dragon Magic, ECS, PGtF, Frostburn, BoED, DMGII, CArc, CMag, CAdv, and a few others. A really highly optimized bard, especially one utilizing Sublime Chord, is T2 though, as Sublime Chord turns your average bard into a sorcerer for the cost of a handful of skill points, something a bard has an abundance of. Bard certainly has more versatility and ability than Duskblades or debatably PsyWars.

Yea, a core only bard is pretty hard up to compete with a higher tier class, but it STILL brings more to the table than a fighter, or a paladin, or arguably a rogue. More books widens this gap more than just about any class.

You can disagree all you want, but you'll find I'm not the only one with that opinion around here. Its generally unwise to make general statements like:

. . . Alright, let's pretend all of the Bard's stuff is awesome.
Its derogatory and inciteful. If you want to make a structured point, you can do it in a way that doesn't belittle people. Without that, you are mearly stating an opinion, one which very very very few poeple will agree with. While you are entitled to your opinion, restating it repeatedly isn't going to convince anyone.

Can we all just chill out a bit?


EDIT: And isn't Inspire Courage the thing that applies +5 max (at high levels when melee and ranged attacks start becoming useless) to attacks and damage rolls? Oh yeah, that's a fantastic ability. Capable of bringing the bard from tier 6 to... tier 6.

IC is one of the easiest abilities to boost, as I stated earlier. Base +1, +1 from Inspirational Boost (SpC), +1 from Songs of the Heart (ECS), +1 from a Badge of Valor (MIC), and a masterwork mandolin means you give all of your allies a +5 to hit, and a +4 to damage as early as ECL 3-4, depending on how you can spend your WBL on the Badge (which is only 1400g, btw, cheaper than a +1 weapon!). Thats discounting using Dragonfire Inspiration (Dragon Magic) to convert it to +5d6 fire damage per hit, which you CAN overlap with normal IC to give both bonuses (granted, this will burn you out fast at low levels, but is sustainable at mid-high levels).

Just google Inspire Courage Optimization. You'll find at least 4-5 constructive theads dedicated to this awesome ability.

The Shadowmind
2010-06-08, 01:36 AM
EDIT: And isn't Inspire Courage the thing that applies +5 max (at high levels when melee and ranged attacks start becoming useless) to attacks and damage rolls? Oh yeah, that's a fantastic ability. Capable of bringing the bard from tier 6 to... tier 6.
Dragonfire inspiration is what makes is powerful. from +X attack/damage to +xd6 energy damage(normally fire). Probably swordsaged.

Keld Denar
2010-06-08, 03:30 AM
Even without DFI, normal IC is pretty good. For anyone in your party who power attacks, IC gives +3 damage per bonus (+1 bonus damage, +2 from PAing for the +1 bonus, assuming you aren't already PAing for your whole BAB). Thats only .5 damage per +1 behind DFI, but has the boon of not being stopped by elemental resistances (chances are, you've already overcome DR through shear numbers, so the extra damage should always go though). It also boosts other things, like a wizard's touch attack spells, because while MOST things don't have a very high touch AC, SOME things really do.

So yea, whether or not you should apply DFI varys party to party. Higher rate of attacks favors DFI, while casters and PAers favor vanillia IC. Check out what your party is doing, then apply approprately.

PId6
2010-06-08, 08:59 AM
IC is one of the easiest abilities to boost, as I stated earlier. Base +1, +1 from Inspirational Boost (SpC), +1 from Songs of the Heart (ECS), +1 from a Badge of Valor (MIC), and a masterwork mandolin means you give all of your allies a +5 to hit, and a +4 to damage as early as ECL 3-4, depending on how you can spend your WBL on the Badge (which is only 1400g, btw, cheaper than a +1 weapon!). Thats discounting using Dragonfire Inspiration (Dragon Magic) to convert it to +5d6 fire damage per hit, which you CAN overlap with normal IC to give both bonuses (granted, this will burn you out fast at low levels, but is sustainable at mid-high levels).
Need moar Words of Creation. Broken as hell, but the topic is powergaming a bard, so may as well mention for completeness.

For Valor
2010-06-09, 12:48 AM
@Keld Denar: That doesn't make the class useful. Spending money and feats on something that adds energy dice of damage to the attack is like making yourself a Wizard and "optimizing" as a blaster. It gets you to the low tier 3/high tier 4 region... which is where the bard exists on the scale.

Also, "pray tell why the bard is a low T3 that gets outperformed by Batman through the Psionic Warrior and Duskblade."

This is still up in the air. I can spend the time to take down multiple builds off of google, but that's honestly not worth my time. Please, just show me this hidden potential of the bard that has obviously escaped the folks at brilliantgameologists. All I want to see is a decent build, at a couple varying levels.

And with all this emphasis on the Bard's [s]dismissable[/b] wonderful class ability, we seem to not have gone over the spell list. Would you mind throwing out a couple of competitive spells that the Bard gets which make it superior to other casters of similar types?

Keld Denar
2010-06-09, 01:08 AM
Its not the fact that you are adding damage. Its the matter that you are adding a LOT of damage. SOMEBODY has to kill things that get disabled and some things are more resource efficient to kill outright then attempt to disable first and then kill.

Like I said, Inspire Courage can add around 15 or so damage PER HIT, as early as level 4. Thats close to doubling the damage output that a raging barbarian of equal level. And thats just the barbarian. You are adding this to your whole party, a buff not even the cleric can match.

As far as expending a large amount of resources...its 1-2 feats (Song of the Heart and MAYBE Words of Creation), 1 1st level spell (Inspirational Boost) and 1 item with a total value of 1400g (Badge of Valor). Its cheap and easy.

So, with that expended, the Bard still has Save or Lose spells like Glitterdust, Grease, Fear, etc, and party buff spells like Haste. Sure, they are a little delayed from a wizard, but only 1 level on average behind a sorcerer.

On top of that, they have AWESOME skill lists. They have Diplomacy, along with the 3 skills that synergize it, all as class skills. They have UMD. They have Sense Motive, Tumble, Bluff, Forgery. More desired skills than most classes have skills period. They have the potential to rock most out of combat social interactions with very little investment, and with significant investments can turn a murder mystery into narrative of events without breathing hard.

Batman wizard is T1. Its not a fair comparison.

Duskblades and PsyWars are both rather one dimensional in their roles, primarily damage, with PsyWars also providing Control through Expansion shananigans and Metamorphasis (through Expanded Knowledge). Bard serves several at once. The tier system isn't a measure of shear power, otherwise a fighter based uber-charger who can crank out 5000+ damage per round would be T1. Its about filling roles and being versatile, which the bard is. I suggest you reread JaronK's thread with the definition of what each Tier represents.

Like I said. In core only, without support, Bard is a low T3 tops. They are still versatile, just not as potent. With sourcebook support, Bard soars to high T3, and if Sublime Chord is in play, up to T2 with the Sorcerer by level 13-15.

EDIT:
And because I feel like addressing this one point specifically:

@Keld Denar: That doesn't make the class useful. Spending money and feats on something that adds energy dice of damage to the attack is like making yourself a Wizard and "optimizing" as a blaster.
I take it you've never seen the Mailman? Its the concept behind making a wizard SUCH a good blaster that his damage spells ARE a "no save, just lose" effect. Except he's still a wizard, still can do everything a wizard can, and a few times a day, just say NO to a handful of foes with ~300 points of irresistable damage. Why waste time with Finger of Death when you can cut out of middle man (and the fort save) and go straight to the Death.

EDIT EDIT:
Strong Bard builds....

Bard5/Mindbender1/Bard+2/Virtuoso2/SublimeChord2/Virtuoso+8

At level 1, admittedly is a bit lackluster, but so is a level 1 wizard. If you take DFI at level 1, you are adding 1d6 damage to each allies attacks, including your own with a sling or bow. If you take a flaw and pick up Extra Music, you can do this 5 times a day, more than enough for a 1st level character, while still having the option of retaining it later for something more relevant. Adding damage or accuracy is still VERY relevant at this point.

Level 2, pick up Inspirational Boost, and all of a sudden, one of your DFIs that day is doubled. Not a bad bump. Also, if you didn't take Extra Music, you are now good for 2 fights per day. Adding damage or accuracy is still VERY relevant at this point.

Level 3, nab Songs of the Heart. Now your base IC is +2, and you have enough spells that you can Insp Boost twice, so 2 combats you get a +3 IC. Thats either +3 to hit and damage, or +3d6 damage per hit to ALL of your allies. The rogue, who's also T3, is ONLY adding 2d6 to his attacks, and thats ONLY for himself and ONLY when he qualifies.

Level 4, you get your first 2nd level spell. Glitterdust is a solid choice. You get it at the same level as a Sorcerer, albiet fewer times per day. Your save DC is gonna be the same as an equal level Wizard or Sorcerer. You also should have enough WBL to get a Badge of Valor, which, 3/day, increases your IC by another point. You are now rocking a 4d6 bonus damage, easily doubling the damage output of an equal level party. Your party fighter/barb/ranger/warblade/whatever should be able to 1shot an ogre EASILY, possibly killing several per round with a manevuer like Sweeping Strike or a feat like Cleave. Adding damage or accuracy is still VERY relevant at this point.

Level 6, you pick up Mindsight with your 100' telepathy. Your party is NEVER surprised again unless its by a horde of invisible mindless undead. You can use Mindsight in combination with Glitterdust to light up foes for your allies to make dead. Your IC is still +4, but its still VERY relevant.

Level 7, you pick up Haste, 1 level after a Sorcerer might have had it. This takes pressure off the party wizard or sorc to cast it, allowing him to invest his full potential in disabling the bad guys. Adding damage or accuracy is still VERY relevant at this point.

Level 10, this is probably your weakest moment. Your IC is now +5, and you lost a level of casting. You still haven't HAD to invest a lot of your cash on anything, other than the normal survival gear and a nice +cha item. Maybe its time to start saving for a Vest of Legends, a cool 10,000g. Adding accuracy is still VERY relevant at this point, probably more so than the damage for things like RTA rays and your fighter mooks ability to Power Attack.

Level 11, you now have 4th and 5th level spells. You are a fast growing Sorcerer. Best focus on spells that don't allow saves, as you'll be a tad behind in this department. Good utility spells like Greater Invis, Solid Fog, Evards Black Tenticles, Teleport and such are all good choices.

Level 12, Song of Arcane Power. That pretty much means kissing SR goodbye. You can jack your CL up high enough to pin-out any damage spell you wanted, or drop buffs that are VERY difficult to dispel.

Level 15, you now have 7th level spells, a single level behind a sorcerer your level. You still have all that other bardy stuff that you keep up, but now you have some real firepower. Might be a good time to pick up Metamagic Song and go to town.

Level 19, you've reached the pinnicle. Level 9 spells. You don't get to mix and match like a Wizard does, so pick some REALLY good ones, like Shapechange or Time Stop. You've just won the game, a scant 2 levels behind a Wizard, and 1 behind a Sorcerer.

Oh, and don't forget, you get to cherry pick the best spells from either list. Most notably, this means Otto's Irresistable Dance as a 6th level spell at level 13, instead of waiting for 15 like a Wizard or 16 like a Sorcerer. Hopefully at that level, not everything is immune to it, since your foes shouldn't have ready access to Mind Blank (also an 8th level spell).

That WHOLE time, you can keep Diplomacy, Bluff, UMD, and a few other skills maxed out, and still have the points to qualify for Sublime Chord and Virtuoso, allowing you to command the battle on and off the field.

You are bringing almost as much magic to the table as an even leveled Sorcerer, plus your IC buff with is VERY good at low-middlehigh levels, plus the skill selection that would make a Sorcerer blush. How is that not solidly T3, if not pushing T2 (same tier as a Sorcerer).

For Valor
2010-06-10, 01:04 AM
Lots to talk about.

Alright, so the bard can add damage to a hit at level 4. I mean, that's great and all... but there are people that can make the bard go deaf, just as there are CR 4 monsters that can climb walls (all buffs are useless unless someone can climb and fight), charm or make the bard rage, fly, regenerate (fast healing, actually), absorb people, turn invisible, breath energy, grapple like a beast, charm or sleep opponents, and deal negative levels.

The bard is useful against very few to none of those things, especially if he walks into combat after burning a fair percentage of his feats (if you're playing flaws, it's smaller, but that's an alternate rule and flaws would make everyone else better along with the bard, so the net loss is similar, if not equivalent).

So the bard can throw out good damage buffs... that's fantastic... if you're planning on running up to a monster and whacking at it. Unfortunately, by level 4, the game has advanced beyond preschool level and the monsters have actual tactics.

As for spells, the bard's are decently competitive at the beginning and slowly begin to suck as you level. Save-or-Lose spells are w/the bard, yes, but the full-casters (which are superior, no surprise) get more.

Concerning UMD... well, alright, I understand that people love it. It's decent, and it helps. But it doesn't make the bard good. Instead, it prevents the bard from being bad. Like the Rogue has UMD, but it also has decent class features that make it pretty competitive through most of the levels.

A Note on Comparisons: You were talking about how amazing it is, so I said it would lose to batman. I hoped it would get you to think about how good the class actually is, which it really didn't... concerning the Psychic Warrior and Duskblade comparisons to Bard... Well, the tier system ranks them all as 3's. It ranks them as 3's because they're around the same level of output and capability. However, most encounters can be solved more easily by Psywars and Duskblades than they can by bards. Your average party with a sneak, a tank, and a caster would certainly do better with another damaging or tanking class, instead of a buffbot that can be stopped with silence.

The Bard is low T3 in Core, as well as with most expansions. If you add other material, you bring the bard up a fair amount, but most other classes increase in capability as well. I mean, that's why splatbooks and completes and whatnot are made--to make PC option's better. If you play a Sublime Chord, the bard actually jumps to low T1. However, Iot7V bumps a Wizard waaaaaaaaaay beyond T1. The Moonspeaker improves non-Druids by 2 tiers, just as the Sacred Exorcist bumps non-Clerics by 2 tiers... so the fact that the Sublime Chord is a good class doesn't say anything about the Bard. It says things about the Sublime Chord.

Finally, looking at the mailman... I see no net benefit. At low levels you're dealing damage and competing with monsters (kinda like the fighter). At higher levels, you're getting better and matching the monsters that don't use real tactics. At the wuxia levels and above, you're absolutely screwed because creatures can literally do as they please to someone who's only real weapons are energy bombs. Especially as a sorcerer, when your spell selection is incredibly limited. My point of "optimizing as a blaster" is only further proven here: Even the best attempts at making a powerful class as a blaster are pretty poor in comparison to other optimizations.

EDIT: I forgot to talk about the skills. Necessary skills: UMD, Spot, Listen, Spellcraft, Concentration. Diplomacy is either terribly broken because you can conquer the world using it (if your DM allows), or it's slightly useful out of combat if you want to pay a little less gold for a magic item or something (and considering the WBL table has already been sent to Hell, that doesn't really change much unless you're playing stingily).

Keld Denar
2010-06-10, 02:52 AM
Lots to talk about.
Indeed....first off, a bit of inconsistancy


Alright, so the bard can add damage to a hit at level 4. I mean, that's great and all... but there are people that can make the bard go deaf, just as there are CR 4 monsters that can climb walls (all buffs are useless unless someone can climb and fight), charm or make the bard rage, fly, regenerate (fast healing, actually), absorb people, turn invisible, breath energy, grapple like a beast, charm or sleep opponents, and deal negative levels.


A Note on Comparisons: You were talking about how amazing it is, so I said it would lose to batman. I hoped it would get you to think about how good the class actually is, which it really didn't... concerning the Psychic Warrior and Duskblade comparisons to bard... Well, the tier system ranks them all as 3's. It ranks them as 3's because they're around the same level of output and capability. However, most encounters can be solved more easily by Psywars and Duskblades than they can by bards. Your average party with a sneak, a tank, and a caster would certainly do better with another damaging or tanking class, instead of a buffbot that can be stopped with silence.
I see one paragraph listing a whole bunch of things that would trouble most characters, including T1 Wizards, Clerics, and possibly Druids at low levels. Then I'm seeing a paragraph stating that T3 PsyWars and Duskblades are very capable of handling all of those things.

I guess PsyWars are immune to negative levels, and Duskblades perform well when silenced, and NOBODY carries ranged weapons at low levels (ranged weapons at high levels are dumb if you are melee centric, but they still mean things until level 5ish).

Bards CAN deal with things that turn invisible if you take Glitterdust, can deal damage at range with a shortbow or sling (augemented with music), rage doesn't prevent or stop music, and even if the music is stopped or silenced, its effects persist for at least 5 rounds, 10 if you have a feat or certain weapon. Regenerate can be overcome with the extra damage that a Bard adds to the party, and if that regenerate is from a troll (most common regen), then the fire that a DFI Bard brings is an even bigger boon. Bards have a strong Ref and Will save, making them MORE resistant to charm or breath weapons than PsyWars, and on par with Duskblades for resisting charms. Low fort save is shorn up by investing in Con, something nearly EVERY character should do, regardless of class, role, or race.


The bard is useful against very few to none of those things, especially if he walks into combat after burning a fair percentage of his feats (if you're playing flaws, it's smaller, but that's an alternate rule and flaws would make everyone else better along with the bard, so the net loss is similar, if not equivalent).
Nobody is perfect at stopping everything, especially not at low levels. Not even a T1 super optimized Wizard. Explain to me how all of those things you listed would be delt with by a Factotum, a Binder, a PsyWar, or any other T3 class. You state that Bards are bad, but then so is the whole rest of T3, and actually every other class in the game, even Wizards. Nobody can be ready against every thing at all times unless you live in your own little Genesis plane and only play with others through the protection of Astral Projection. And what feats would the Bard take to increase his survivability instead of Songs of the Heart or Words of Creation? Toughness? Dodge? Great Fortitude? In D&D, most of the time, the best defense is a strong offense. Kill it or disable it before it gets to your squishy bits. Inspire Courage and Haste both subscribe to this school of though, buffing yourself and our team to deal with the threats as fast as possible so you are in danger for fewer rounds per day.


So the bard can throw out good damage buffs... that's fantastic... if you're planning on running up to a monster and whacking at it. Unfortunately, by level 4, the game has advanced beyond preschool level and the monsters have actual tactics.
A Bard should have a ranged weapon. They are proficient in slings and short bows. The base damage of the weapon matters very little when you put Inspire Courage, especially with Dragonfire Inspiration behind it. When you aren't attacking with spells, the extra damage helps mop up wounded or disabled foes.


As for spells, the bard's are decently competitive at the beginning and slowly begin to suck as you level. Save-or-Lose spells are w/the bard, yes, but the full-casters (which are superior, no surprise) get more.
If you compare shear magical might of a Bard vs a Wizard, OF COURSE THE BARD IS GONNA FALL SHORT!!!!! Nobody ever said that a Bard is a better caster than a Wizard. But hes not as far behind as you think, as I showed in my level-by-level breakdown above. A smart player knows to target weak saves to make every spell count. A smart player knows when an offensive spell might be ineffective, and casts a buff instead. A smart player rations his daily resources wisely, in the event more might be needed later. That goes for Wizards and Bards. Spellcasting isn't your only option as a Bard, but it is a strong one, and when used effectively, can be as relevant in an encounter as a similar spell cast by a Wizard.

According to The Logic Ninja (writer of the famous Batman guide), sometimes the best solution to a problem isn't through the direct application of magical force. Sometimes the best solution to a problem is indirect application of force. The comparison was made between Haste and Fireball, with Haste being WAY more valuable because in the long run, it provided more damage in one round when cast on the Fighter and Rogue than Fireball could do in the the 1 round, and the Haste sticks around for a couple rounds to compound this difference. Same thing with Inspire Courage, except that it doesn't take any spell slots (unless you are using Insp Boost, a 1st level spell). Bards have a low resource cost buff that is easily about as effective as Haste (especially when boosted) that is useful in nearly every combat situation which helps the magical resources that they have stretch further.


Concerning UMD... well, alright, I understand that people love it. It's decent, and it helps. But it doesn't make the bard good. Instead, it prevents the bard from being bad. Like the Rogue has UMD, but it also has decent class features that make it pretty competitive through most of the levels.
Like what? Sneak Attack? I thought that it was "just damage", something that "no character should worry about past a certain level"? Or maybe it was social skills? Bards get those too. What about Trapfinding? Eh, just have someone take the Summon Elemental [Reserve] feat and the whole class feature was just made relatively irrelevant. So, what are these other dazzling class features that make a Rogue a full 3 Tiers (in your opinion) greater than a Bard? Or a make a PsyWar so much greater than a Bard? Or make a Duskblade so much greater than a Bard? Or make a Warblade so much better than a Bard? All I've heard are claims, yet only I've provided evidence and a breakdown of abilities with an analysis of their strengths.


The bard is low T3 in Core

Wait, I thought they were T6? Oh, right...UMD.


, as well as with most expansions. If you add other material, you bring the bard up a fair amount, but most other classes increase in capability as well. I mean, that's why splatbooks and completes and whatnot are made--to make PC option's better. If you play a Sublime Chord, the bard actually jumps to low T1. However, Iot7V bumps a Wizard waaaaaaaaaay beyond T1. The Moonspeaker improves non-Druids by 2 tiers, just as the Sacred Exorcist bumps non-Clerics by 2 tiers... so the fact that the Sublime Chord is a good class doesn't say anything about the bard. It says things about the Sublime Chord.
Fair enough. Sublime Chord IS good. But its also pretty much a Bard-only PrC. Its possible to get in without Bard (using a questionable reading on Harmoneous Knight Pally, for example), but the skill tax to get in for a non-Bard is pretty tough, even for a human with Able Learner.

Besides, as others have pointed out before me in other threads, more books increases the power level of lower tiers by a higher delta than higher tiers. Sure, a Wizard with Spell Compendium might gain a couple new toys, but find me a 9th level spell in SpC that compares to Gate...or Shapechange...or Wish. And thats just one example. Now, look at what Spirit Lion Totem (Complete Champion) does for a Barbarian? Its like night and day. Look what adding Factotums or PsyWars brings to the game? Look at all of the amazing Ranger spells in Spell Compendium, Champions of Ruin, and the PHBII. More books benefits the lower tiers WAY more than the highest.


Finally, looking at the mailman... I see no net benefit. At low levels you're dealing damage and competing with monsters (kinda like the fighter). At higher levels, you're getting better and matching the monsters that don't use real tactics. At the wuxia levels and above, you're absolutely screwed because creatures can literally do as they please to someone who's only real weapons are energy bombs. Especially as a sorcerer, when your spell selection is incredibly limited. My point of "optimizing as a blaster" is only further proven here: Even the best attempts at making a powerful class as a blaster are pretty poor in comparison to other optimizations.
Mailman was just an example that came to mind due to your distain for dealing damage. No matter how you slice it, a creature with 0 HP is dead (with VERY few exceptions). The best way to get HP to 0? Well, that depends. Sometimes the best way is to do it is to cripple it and let your party hack it to bits. Another way is to kill it outright with a single kill spell. But if you can just deal 300 damage to it in a single round with a single spell...well, its still just as dead. Most blasters don't HYPERspecialize in blasting either. Metamagic is good all around. Its good for control wizards, its good for blaster Wizards. Metamagic reducers must be good too. Many of the feats the Mailman uses can be applied to a lot of the common debuffs and kill spells. The Mailman also needs only 1 spell to kill. The main problem with Warmages is that that they have metaphorically 500 knives, but only two hands. The Mailman has but 1 knife, but its VERY sharp, and he's VERY good at sticking it into your heart. In the end, the difference between being killed by a Finger of Death and being killed by a 300 point Orb of Fire is very minor. So the Mailman arms himself with a few of these highly potent Orbs of Fire, leaving all of his other spell slots available to do all of the common Wizardy stuff, like casting buffs, disabling and dividing large groups of foes, and other things.


EDIT: I forgot to talk about the skills. Necessary skills: UMD, Spot, Listen, Spellcraft, Concentration. Diplomacy is either terribly broken because you can conquer the world using it (if your DM allows), or it's slightly useful out of combat if you want to pay a little less gold for a magic item or something (and considering the WBL table has already been sent to Hell, that doesn't really change much unless you're playing stingily).

What about Tumble? I generally take a couple ranks of Tumble on almost EVERY character I make. Why? Because sometimes you just get into bad situations where there is a huge spike chain wielding mage slayer in front of you, and Abrupt Jaunt just won't cut it. What about Sense Motive? Because sometimes Baron von Questgiver isn't being totally honest with you, and a good sense motive is the difference between your surprise round and his (killing people in the surprise round means they can't kill you back). Bluff? You were saying earlier how powerful Bluff is...yet it didn't make your list. Not every solution is combat. Resources saved avoiding combat could mean the difference between victory and TPK later in the day. A few others have plenty of use, including Forgery...whos opposed skill is Forgery, a skill which almost nobody has, making it a powerful tool for the creative mind.

In conclusion:
I'm just saying, you are over-simplifying things. Saying that Bards are worthless in a handful of situations that would stump many other classes, including higher tier classes, is a falacy. Either everyone is worthless and the DM is a prick, or nobody is. Some classes are better at dealing at more diverse situations, as denoted by their tier (truely, the definition of tier), but no class can deal with all situations ever, especially at low levels.

Second, more sourcebooks close the gap between powers. A few balance experts, far more wise than me, have stated that the most unblancing book ever printed in D&D 3.5 is the PHB, simply because there is nothing in there that the lowest tiers can do to raise their station in life. Adding source books slides everyone up the scale, but some slide further from their initial positions than others. Bards, arguably, slide the most simply with the presence of the Sublime Chord PrC, a Bard-only PrC.

Third, I'd like to see some concrete examples of how a level 4 ANYTHING would deal with All of the things you listed in your first paragraph. D&D isn't a solo activity, its a group effort. Bards, especially well built Bards, bring enough to the table to pull their own weight in most of those situations, even if they can't completely solve it on their own.

Finally, I encourage you to read this, the Tier thread (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.0). There seems to be some confusion as to what is expected of the various tiers.

Tier3, to which the Bard belongs.

Tier 3: Capable of doing one thing quite well, while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate, or capable of doing all things, but not as well as classes that specialize in that area. Occasionally has a mechanical ability that can solve an encounter, but this is relatively rare and easy to deal with. Challenging such a character takes some thought from the DM, but isn't too difficult. Will outshine any Tier 5s in the party much of the time.

emphasis mine.

EDIT EDIT:
Ultimately, nobody is trying to convince you that Bards are TEH GREATESTESTEST EVAR! All I'm saying is that Bards are T3, and a VERY solid T3 at that, with a great deal of versatility that a smart player can use to make them very effective.

Endarire
2010-06-10, 03:26 AM
Breaking DOwn Inspire Courage Optimization (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8334.0)

A typical Bard is expected to boost Inspire Courage as high as practical. Even without Words of Creation, getting +4 at level 4 is possible, even practical.

For Valor
2010-06-10, 09:10 PM
Character Troubles: AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! Wizards not being able to much deal with Invisibility!!! Ohhhh that's a good one. And Save-or-sucks and regeneration being disadvantageous to casters!?!!? Oh boy, you tell good jokes.

Negative levels hurt everybody, yes, but the PsyWar stacks Wis, helping his necessary saves. As opposed to the bard... what does he stack? Int and Cha, and then you might stack Con or Dex. One will help HP and improv Fort and the other will stop you from being stabbed in the face or hit with RTAs. But none of them stock up your Will save--at level 4, the Bard's will save will be 4+Wis mod (meaning it's 2) and the PsyWar's Will save is 1+Wismod, around 3 or 4.Yeah, being silenced hurts a Duskblade. But at least it doesn't ruin every single one of their options, including all their class features.

And w/Glitterdust, I do believe the bard has to stop singing to cast it, as all his spells involve vocal components. The bard's damage output will only match up to the fast healing of monsters, making his party role "the guy who helps us deal extra damage" in a fight where the monster has fast healing, so I acquiesce that the bard is moderately useful.

As for "not being able to stop everything", you're absolutely right. But each class can handle about 40% of the problems on that list for T3 (the wizard does 95%) or provide party support that helps others when they're trying to stop the monster. What can the bard stop?

Spells: I talk about fullcasters and you run over the Batman... my goodness, you seem to be forgetting all the other full-casters in the game. There are more, just so you know.

And like I said, the Bard spells are decent at a low levels (I don't see where Haste comes in here), but other classes pull away from them as full-casters or find other more awesome abilities as other classes.

Rogue-thing: Man... I have no idea why I compared the Rogue to the Bard. Honestly. The rogue's certainly worse. Man... I know I was thinking of something... what was it? Maybe Beguiler... I think...

Your Poor Sarcasm: You forgot to include spells. Both count, IMO, for about 1.5 tiers. See, I do actually think about these things.

Class bumping stuff: I wasn't talking about the Wizard getting advantages. I was talking about the rest of tier 3. The ranger was happy when he got his Wildshape ACF, just like the bard was happy when he saw the opportunity to cheat become a Talfirian Bard (That's not meant to impact on this conversation; please don't bring it up unless you're making a snide comment about my humor).

Concerning PrCs: The Sublime Chord is the Sublime Chord is the Sublime Chord, just like the Bard is the Bard is the Bard. If we factor prestige classes into this mess, we have to consider stupid things like the commoner being eligible for Ur-Priest and whether level dips and multiclassing counts for making a class good based on a certain build (thinking of The Word and such here. Does this mean that Evil is a better alignment or that the Warlock is an amazing class?)

Skills: All the examples you have listed are situation, useful in some places but not so great in others. A bard who grabs those skills makes himself moderately more useful, but not much more so than normal. Baron von Questgiver pops up once in a while, but SM will be with you for the rest of your campaign. Tumble's nice, too, but only when you're trying to get out of tight spots (literally). Flying opponents could honestly give a damn.

Tier link and tier 3 definition: I know the link, thanks. You added emphasis on something that doesn't seem to support your point. Your bard builds show a class focused on buffs (damage buffs) with some use of spellcasting, not versatility. So I null that point.

Last Idea: Let me also get a quick idea across. You've got 2 main builds for a bard: One that gets nice casting w/SC, and another quick one that lets you do some nice energy damage when you're buffing your friends. The first one has everything to do with the Virtuoso and SC, and little to do with the bard. The second one helps you deal damage and hurts your utility.

So what are we talking about? A bard without specificity or a bard that's been narrowly defined? Because you make references to both to support your theses.

PId6
2010-06-10, 09:33 PM
I think I speak for a lot of people when I ask For Valor here to start defending his own points with real evidence rather than just making bold statements and then strawmanning the opposition. Here's how that works, in case you're unfamiliar:

1. You make a statement, like this:

But each class can handle about 40% of the problems on that list for T3 (the wizard does 95%)
2. Give some concrete definitions for the statement. What levels are you talking about? Level 4? I'd like to see a level 4 wizard deal with 95% of that list without Pazuzu.
3. Actually prove it. Give some examples. How does a Duskblade deal with most of those problems? How does a PsyWar? A Beguiler? You claim that all of these are superior to a Bard and can deal with 40% of the problems. Now prove it.

Until you start actually supporting your claims rather than just making them, you can't expect anyone to take your arguments seriously.

For Valor
2010-06-10, 11:02 PM
2. Give some concrete definitions for the statement. What levels are you talking about? Level 4? I'd like to see a level 4 wizard deal with 95% of that list without Pazuzu.
3. Actually prove it. Give some examples. How does a Duskblade deal with most of those problems? How does a PsyWar? A Beguiler? You claim that all of these are superior to a Bard and can deal with 40% of the problems. Now prove it.

Until you start actually supporting your claims rather than just making them, you can't expect anyone to take your arguments seriously.

Doing that would involve working harder than the rest of the people in this argument. I could rifle through the SpC and pull out some stuff, try some quick lvl 4 builds and strategies, and overall get myself knee-deep in this. But that's an awful lot of work. I can address your problems with the wizard, though--I honestly thought everyone would know the wizard's potential... but hey, I'm a strawman.

Quick list of wonderful spells:
- blindness
- cloud of bewilderment
- ghoul touch
- glitterdust
- lahm's finger darts
- phantasmal assailants
- shadowspray
- web

2nd-level spells thar. I think those take care of quite a few of the problems presented by CR 4 monsters.

Now, right off the bat, that deals with opponents who climb, fly (I think), have fast healing, absorb people, grapple, breath energy (I think). It also deals with invisibility, and the negative levels problem (since that arose from a monster making melee attacks.)

Are you slightly happier? Try applying the same idea here to the other T3 classes. You'll find that a lot of them can deal with this stuff pretty well.

PId6
2010-06-10, 11:24 PM
Doing that would involve working harder than the rest of the people in this argument. I could rifle through the SpC and pull out some stuff, try some quick lvl 4 builds and strategies, and overall get myself knee-deep in this. But that's an awful lot of work. I can address your problems with the wizard, though--I honestly thought everyone would know the wizard's potential... but hey, I'm a strawman.
If you don't want to work, stop arguing. Keld has provided a concrete build with level by level breakdown of what they can do. If you can't do even a fraction of that and only feel like making unsupported statements, why are you even here?


Quick list of wonderful spells:
- blindness
- cloud of bewilderment
- ghoul touch
- glitterdust
- lahm's finger darts
- phantasmal assailants
- shadowspray
- web
Great; how many of these would the typical level 4 wizard have prepared in one day? I can see Web and Glitterdust having been prepared, and maybe one or two others, but that's it. He has answers, but how does the level 4 wizard know exactly what to prepare for the day? Contact Other Plane comes at level 9; how are you able to have exactly the spell you want on hand at level 4?

And this is the wizard. Tier 1. How does this relate to anything? The question is about Tier 3s, so stop taking the easy route and make an argument for an actual Tier 3, like Duskblade or PsyWar. And don't just say they can pick these spells/powers; how many are they actually going to have and be able to cast/manifest?

For Valor
2010-06-10, 11:50 PM
If you don't want to work, stop arguing. Keld has provided a concrete build with level by level breakdown of what they can do. If you can't do even a fraction of that and only feel like making unsupported statements, why are you even here?


Great; how many of these would the typical level 4 wizard have prepared in one day? I can see Web and Glitterdust having been prepared, and maybe one or two others, but that's it. He has answers, but how does the level 4 wizard know exactly what to prepare for the day? Contact Other Plane comes at level 9; how are you able to have exactly the spell you want on hand at level 4?

And this is the wizard. Tier 1. How does this relate to anything? The question is about Tier 3s, so stop taking the easy route and make an argument for an actual Tier 3, like Duskblade or PsyWar. And don't just say they can pick these spells/powers; how many are they actually going to have and be able to cast/manifest?

tsk, tsk. Keld provided a Sublime Chord build through lvl 20, and a way to give the party some energy damage at around level 4. That hardly fulfills the term "concrete build" to show what a bard can do. One gives the party energy damage (woot woot... a lot of CR 4 monsters don't care) and the other one shows off how good the SC is, not the bard.

Concerning the spells: Please, either confront me on the Wizard or stop bitching about it. Don't flip-flop. The Wizard would have any of these spells prepared according to the Same Game Test. If he were jumped, he'd have some stuff that could or could not be useful and he'd probably get screwed. Then again, everything short of the Twice-Betrayer of Shar would get screwed if they got jumped by a scary monster. Including the bard.

Now I can talk about tier 3 classes too, but there's really nothing coming from the opposition that would merit such a thing. Why would I bother? I can even picture in my mind someone trying to change the topic or legitimize the bard's failures, and we'll get into a whole 'nother argument. So I'm not wasting my time till there's something worth writing about.

And before any more argument begins, are we talking about tier 1 or tier 3 classes? Take your pick. After you choose, though, no ranting about the other one, even if I make a reference to "Batman" or "the Artificer" or anything (usually those things aren't even meant to be constructive. If you'll note, the only reason we got on the argument w/Batman is because I said that the bard would lose to Batman through the Duskblade. KD had no relevant argument to make thought I was trying to make a legitimate argument, and so he attacked the assertion).

EDIT: With all due respect, you don't seem to know much about bards/everything else either... got any constructive ideas for the bard?

The Shadowmind
2010-06-11, 12:53 AM
For the bard, trade out countersong for spell-breaker song(Complete Mage) 1st level ACF for a ability that applies to a more common situation, or trade bardic knowledge for Bardic Knack (Player's handbook II), for a large saving on skill points. I'd go for dragonfire inspiration/dragon touched, since you can easily add +4d6 fire damage to each attack by level 6 before you enter cheese territory. And, you still have room for Melodic casting so you can play while casting, or select dragon heritage is you want a different energy type.
If you are human then you have one more feat to use, or flaws for an extra 2 more. Versatile spell caster(Race of the Dragon) could help out with your limited spells per day.
You use two of those skill points you save from Bardic Knack to grab the collector of stories skill trick for a +5 Competence boost to help you figure out what that big nasty is and can do.
These are the spells the currently incomplete BG's Bard Handbook recommends (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8284.msg276432#msg276432).

Keld Denar
2010-06-11, 01:54 AM
Hmmmm, I go to a BBQ, and things get interesting...

First of all, concerning rules and rules knowledge...



Negative levels hurt everybody, yes, but the PsyWar stacks Wis, helping his necessary saves. As opposed to the bard... what does he stack?
Negative levels are a fort save, not a will save. And there is almost never a save when you gain a negative level, only 24 hours after the negative level was applied, assuming it isn't temporary like Enervation or the psionic enervation Stygian Ray.


And w/Glitterdust, I do believe the bard has to stop singing to cast it, as all his spells involve vocal componentsl.

Either the bard has Melodic Casting (Cmage, AMAZING feat) to allow him to cast and use wands while maintaining a song, or the bard lets the song stop, knowing that its effects linger for 5 rounds. You'd know this if you read the class.


Tumble's nice, too, but only when you're trying to get out of tight spots (literally). Flying opponents could honestly give a damn.
Nothing says you can't tumble while flying, or tumble to avoid a flying foe.

Now, as for the meat and potatoes...


As for "not being able to stop everything", you're absolutely right. But each class can handle about 40% of the problems on that list for T3 (the wizard does 95%) or provide party support that helps others when they're trying to stop the monster. What can the bard stop?

I listed things. Bards bring ranged attacks, glitterdust, social skills like Bluff, Sense Motive, and Diplomacy that help avoid frivolous encounters, boosted damage that help the party kill the opposition faster. I believe in my last post I debunked at least 40% of the situations you presented, if not more. Now, I've done my homework, where is your half of the bargain? Oh, right...strawman.


Spells: I talk about fullcasters and you run over the Batman... my goodness, you seem to be forgetting all the other full-casters in the game. There are more, just so you know.
TLN's Batman guide is basically considered the pinnacle of wizardom. In most cases, Arcane > Divine, which mean that “Batman” style wizards are the most carefully thought out, most highly prepared, and most resource efficient caster of any caster printed. Clerics have a hard time bringing as much to the table as a wizard does (they bring other things to the table though, valuable, but definitely not as strong). Druids, pretty much the same, although they are probably about half way between cleric and wizard in terms of bringing party buffs and enemy action denial. Everything else is a derivative of one of those, with archivists being above clerics and druids, but below wizards, and all other casting classes being T2.


You forgot to include spells. Both count, IMO, for about 1.5 tiers. See, I do actually think about these things.
See my Bard/Mindbender/SublimeChord breakdown. I didn't post EVERY single spell in there, just highlighted the high points. You've just listed off a bunch of spells, mostly without sources, or HOW they apply to given situations.

Besides...STOP COMPARING A T3 TO A T1 AND WONDERING WHY IT COMES UP SHORT!

We all know that bards aren't wizards. Thats why wizards are wizards and bards are bards. Smart bards play with a lot of the same tricks, but they aren't gonna be as good as a wizard at it. They do bring some other things that DO help out quite a bit, because hey, not everyone wants to adventure as 3 wizards and a druid all the time.



Concerning PrCs: The Sublime Chord is the Sublime Chord is the Sublime Chord, just like the Bard is the Bard is the Bard.
I'll semi-concede this point. The PrC is good. Regardless, you almost NEVER see a dedicated caster focused optimized bard suggestion that doesn't include it. Some wizards go Iot7V, some go Incantatrix, others go ScM, and still more go Master Specialist and yet more dip Beguiler/UltimateMagus while some are Divine Oracles and others are Fatespinners. ALL optimized caster bards go Sublime Chord. While its not part of the bard class, it pretty much should be. Also, its pretty foul to compare Sublime Chord to Ur-Priest. Ur-Priest allows 9th level spells before even a wizard. Sublime Chord gives 9th level spells at level 19, 2 levels behind a wizard. While Sublime Chord is good, its no where near the level of amazing that is Ur-Priest. Its like saying “my pistol is the best pistol ever made”, then you saying “yea, but it doesn't have the range or precision that my rifle has”.


Tier link and tier 3 definition: I know the link, thanks. You added emphasis on something that doesn't seem to support your point. Your bard builds show a class focused on buffs (damage buffs) with some use of spellcasting, not versatility. So I null that point.
I don't get it. Does putting a couple feats into IC stop you from using skills? Does using one spell toward boosting IC stop you from taking utility spells, divinations, disables, buffs, or even summons? As you yourself stated...spellcasting counts for 1.5 tiers, and as the link shows, higher tiers are more versatile. A bards spellcasting is behind a wizards, but only by about 2 levels (1 behind a sorcerer). So...contradiction?


Let me also get a quick idea across. You've got 2 main builds for a bard: One that gets nice casting w/SC, and another quick one that lets you do some nice energy damage when you're buffing your friends. The first one has everything to do with the Virtuoso and SC, and little to do with the bard. The second one helps you deal damage and hurts your utility.

So what are we talking about? A bard without specificity or a bard that's been narrowly defined? Because you make references to both to support your theses.
You seem to be mistaken. I'm only talking about 1 build. The one I posted and broke down (Bard5/Mindbender1/Bard+2/Virtuoso2/SubChord2/Virt+8). Sure, there might be some subtle variations based on personal preference, like DFI or no DFI, a splash of Lyric Thaumaturge, or the presence or absence of Mindbender, but that hardly changes the bulk of the build. Its a build focused on providing utility, massive amounts of support, decent disable, and out-of-combat versatility. I fail to see how it doesn't deliver all of these things, on at least the T3 scale. Like I said, bards aren't T1, but in no world is a decently build bard T6 as you've implied.

Optimizing for IC is relatively resource light, and generally doesn't interfere much with building for a focused caster bard. No reason why any caster bard worth his salt wouldn't bring a decent IC to the table, considering its practically a free buff every fight that is both strong and relatively inobtrusive.


Now, right off the bat, that deals with opponents who climb, fly (I think), have fast healing, absorb people, grapple, breath energy (I think). It also deals with invisibility, and the negative levels problem (since that arose from a monster making melee attacks.)
Again, comparing bards to wizards. Bards aren't wizards. If they were, they would be called wizards, and they would be T1. But they aren't. They are bards. And they are T3. Please explain how a bard comes up lacking vs the other T3s


Are you slightly happier? Try applying the same idea here to the other T3 classes. You'll find that a lot of them can deal with this stuff pretty well.
Nope, not happier at all. You state that any any other T3 are better than a bard, but when I ask for proof, you make statements about how awesome wizards are. No offense, but I know how awesome wizards are. They are pretty darned awesome. Not the point of discussion here.


Please, either confront me on the Wizard or stop bitching about it. Don't flip-flop. The Wizard would have any of these spells prepared according to the Same Game Test. If he were jumped, he'd have some stuff that could or could not be useful and he'd probably get screwed. Then again, everything short of the Twice-Betrayer of Shar would get screwed if they got jumped by a scary monster. Including the bard.
I stated that a bard can provided a bunch of useful abilities that augement a group. You insinuated that nothing a bard can do can stop him from getting crushed by a whole gambit of abilities at low levels. I countered stating that no other character of equal tier could survive such a gambit either, and even the highest tier of characters at such low levels would be hard pressed to deal with that gambit. You jumped to the conclusion that I think bards are stronger than well prepared wizards, even though I've never made that statement. Allow me to repeat myself. Bards are not wizards. If bards were wizards, they would be called wizards, and they would be T1. But they aren't wizards, and they aren't T1. I fail to see how a duskblade or warblade or psywar or factotum (all T3) would be able to handle any more of those situations than a bard.


Now I can talk about tier 3 classes too, but there's really nothing coming from the opposition that would merit such a thing. Why would I bother? I can even picture in my mind someone trying to change the topic or legitimize the bard's failures, and we'll get into a whole 'nother argument. So I'm not wasting my time till there's something worth writing about.
Then why are you here? I made a point, you disagreed, I countered with my backup, and you state that you'd rather not provide proof. Thats hardly fair in an argument.


If you'll note, the only reason we got on the argument w/Batman is because I said that the bard would lose to Batman through the Duskblade. KD had no relevant argument to make thought I was trying to make a legitimate argument, and so he attacked the assertion).
I did note that. You specifically pulled a snapshot out at level 4 and then listed off a whole gambit of things, some of which a bard can handle easily, and some of which NOBODY can handle easily. Then you stated that a bard can do nothing to aid the party in defeating those obsticles. I refuted a goodly amount of them, and some, like level drain, inquired how ANYONE, even a T1, would deal with them at low levels? I understand, at high levels, a T1 or T2 can have a perfect contingency for EVERY situation, but at low levels, those contingencies aren't available, and in some cases, everyone is equally vulnerable.

So, in conclusion...a bard is not a wizard. If he was a wizard, he would be called a wizard, and would be T1. Just so there is no confusion. Secondly, lets discuss T3s from now on, since that is where JaronK and friends thought it appropriate to place the bard. I'd like to see how each of a psywar, duskblade, warblade, or factotum deals with all of the situations you presented above, at level 4, or even how they would aid a party in overcoming those obstacles, since that is the definition of T3.

Myatar_Panwar
2010-06-11, 02:50 AM
Someday I want to play a game with you guys where doing damage apparently doesn't matter.

Sure you could cast some spell to disable some guy. Impressive?

OR you can get that +12d6 fire damage and Whirling Blade your way to victory! Impressive!

Tyger
2010-06-11, 08:04 AM
A bunch of well thought out, creative, logical and on point argument.

Well said Keld. I was in the process of putting together something when you posted yours. Everything I was going to add, you already did, and in a much politer tone.

The bard is argaubly the best party synergizer (if I can make up a word) in the game. While his sheer power and versatility pales in comparison to the Tier 1 classes, and the wizard in particular, there are few classes that can aid the whole party in as many areas, as reliably and creatively as the bard. The bard class, properly and creatively played, is likely at the top end of the Tier 3 spectrum, and properly and creatively built, is likely a contender for a low rank in Tier 2.

For Valor
2010-06-12, 04:47 PM
Negative Levels: Tsk, you're right. Well, that's silly, That means the bard has +2, and the PsyWar has +5. So the PsyWar has a definite advantage instead of a probable advantage. My bad concerning the lack of knowledge, but thank you for supporting my example.


Glitterdust Argument: Ah, now we're adding more feats to a bard that's already used two!! And now we're purchasing more items! Oh, and you might see, if you read the post, that I never said the effects of the buff would stop immediately. That's because I read the class, and I know how it works (kinda funny how that correlates to your cute little attempt to flame me).

Tumble: Sorry, I thought tumble was to avoid opponents. Which you can do by flying. Especially at level 4, which is where your buff-build has been situated.

Bard benefits nonsense: I already went over how those skills are hardly useful. Of course, you might play campaigns where those skills are very necessary. Most campaigns don't run that way. And if the bard is stocking Int for his skill (goodness knows why) and Cha for his spells and buffs, then his Dex will be third on the list and won't be all that fantastic, especially with his medium BAB.

Batman and his friends: So instead of running over to the wizard, you're running over to the T1 classes? How about T2 fullcasters? And T3 fullcasters?

You flipping out about T1: This is your response to a snide comment I made about your "UMD" garbage. It was something like, "why is the bard T3? Oh, right UMD." I was correcting you, the bard's spells and UMD are what make it T3. Its buffs are cute.

You semi-concede: Well, we talk to much, anyway. If we want to argue about this, it will be over PM.

Tier 3 discussion: You're a little confused by what I'm saying, obviously:
a) BARD spellcasting raises something by 1.5 tiers. Wizard spellcasting definitely brings stuff up by 3-4.
b) I was talking about how your bard runs a lot of feats to get the abilities that he gets (at levl 4, at least. We can talk higher levels if your build extends... I really have no idea whether it does or not). He's got spellcasting, but that means he sings, he does a little utility if there's something around, and then just contributes to his allies who are stabbing the monster(s) in face/shooting the monster(s) in the face. That doesn't seem like a whole lot of flexibility, especially since this guy needs to know his spells forever.
c) An off-topic idea... If the bard is buffs + utility + helping the party fight, couldn't you use someone who helps the party fight, and then give everyone some items? It seems like a nice replacement for the bard, and all you need are some wands/potions/whatever.

SC build: Erm... last time I checked, the SC builds were meant for provided utility and lots of spells. You even said so yourself. This is a build where the bard casts spells, and casts more spells than normal because of the PrCs he's taken. But, that aside, you're changing the argument here. I was saying that you have 2 builds: This guy, and a 4-ish-level Dragonfire Inspiration dude, and that those didn't qualify as arguments for making the bard a "solid T3", since one went to level 4 and the other focused on Virtuoso and SC instead of the bard itself.

I am certainly not saying that the bard is T6. It's T3, because it has some nice spells and UMD. Don't throw around this T6 nonsense. And if you do, throw it around after you understand the reason I referenced T6.

Wizard thing and "Are you Slightly Happier?" "No.": That was for PId6, who said that a Wizard would have problems dealing with what I listed for CR 4 monsters. I was only proving him wrong, so please don't let that have any implication on our debate here.

Like, honestly, just ignore everything I say to PId6. He's a few steps behind in this conversation.

The rest of your responses deal with my argument v. PId6. Please don't argue over them, as it'll bring us back to square 1 and we'll repeat 2 or 3 pages of posts. I'm not going to waste my time on that, and I request that you do the same.

@Tyger--
Party Synergizer: Well, as great as a nice party syngergizer is, that's what magic items are for. Buffs are fantastic, but there's a reason WotC emphasizes the roles: Defense, Damage, Control, and Leader. The "buffer" is easy to emulate, as is utility. Honestly, the only reason a bard is decent material is because of his ability to closely emulate Wizard/Sorc casting via SC and Virtuoso, which makes for a great build but shows that the bard isn't worth the full 20 levels.

Raistlin1040
2010-06-12, 05:18 PM
Bard benefits nonsense: I already went over how those skills are hardly useful. Of course, you might play campaigns where those skills are very necessary. Most campaigns don't run that way. And if the bard is stocking Int for his skill (goodness knows why) and Cha for his spells and buffs, then his Dex will be third on the list and won't be all that fantastic, especially with his medium BAB.
I'm not really in this argument, despite this being my thread, but I saw this and felt the need to comment. This is complete BS. Diplomacy, Bluff, and Sense Motive are some of the most useful skills in the game, and have creative uses that make them more versatile than something like Jump, or Appraise, or Swim. As I'm sure most people would agree, some D&D games end up like Improv Theater, with no combat. Some end up like a tabletop version of 300. MOST campaigns are somewhere in the middle, and unless your characters are named "Dwarven Fighter", "Elf Wizard", "Halfling Rogue", and "Human Cleric", and the campaign backstory is "You all met in a tavern and decided to go kill orcs", Social Skills can be used to just as much advantage as combat-related ones.

Flickerdart
2010-06-12, 06:01 PM
Tumble: Sorry, I thought tumble was to avoid opponents. Which you can do by flying. Especially at level 4, which is where your buff-build has been situated.
Yes, because clearly at 4th level everyone who isn't flying should pack up their character sheets and go home, because every single class worth playing has some way to rule the skies. The only class-based way to do that at 4th level is Alter Self, a spell available to Sorcerers, Wizards...and Bards.

Deadmeat.GW
2010-06-12, 06:08 PM
<<<<Tier 3 discussion: You're a little confused by what I'm saying, obviously:
a) BARD spellcasting raises something by 1.5 tiers. Wizard spellcasting definitely brings stuff up by 3-4.
b) I was talking about how your bard runs a lot of feats to get the abilities that he gets (at levl 4, at least. We can talk higher levels if your build extends... I really have no idea whether it does or not). He's got spellcasting, but that means he sings, he does a little utility if there's something around, and then just contributes to his allies who are stabbing the monster(s) in face/shooting the monster(s) in the face. That doesn't seem like a whole lot of flexibility, especially since this guy needs to know his spells forever.
c) An off-topic idea... If the bard is buffs + utility + helping the party fight, couldn't you use someone who helps the party fight, and then give everyone some items? It seems like a nice replacement for the bard, and all you need are some wands/potions/whatever.>>>>

Hum, I highlighted a small problem, you are going to completely have to throw the RULES out of the window to keep up with a bard providing support by replacing all the things a bard can provide with items.

Wealth By Level...

How much wealth did you just end up adding to other classes to make out that the bard is worse then them?
You are going by the maxim 'If the bard follows the rules and the rest gets to get free stuff on top of the rules the bard is going to be worse then them.'

These items cannot just be 'given' to the party.
They come out of your budget.

Of the Tier 3 classes which one does provide similar support as the bard at the same cost?
Of course saying a wizard/druid/cleric can do so better then the bard but then these are not Tier 3 classes.

Fax Celestis
2010-06-12, 06:30 PM
Bard has spontaneous spellcasting off a unique list (mostly buffs and debuffs), 6+Int skills, and Use Magic Device as a class skill. There is literally nothing a wizard can do that a bard cannot do.

Bards get access to some of the most powerful spells in the game, especially in core only: prestidigitation (don't laugh, I'm serious), confusion, grease, hideous laughter, hypnotism, sleep, ventriloquism, alter self, calm emotions, enthrall, heroism, minor image, mirror image, silence, tongues, blink, charm monster, haste, major image, slow, greater invisibility, modify memory, shadow conjuration, greater heroism, persistent image, shadow evocation, mass suggestion, geas/quest, heroes' feast, irresistible dance, and veil, in core. Many of these are bard only.

A bard can tell a wizard to sit down, shut up, lick his boots, and become his minion with a Diplomacy check (and the proper buffs), and the wizard will do it.

Tyger
2010-06-12, 06:58 PM
Glitterdust Argument: Ah, now we're adding more feats to a bard that's already used two!! And now we're purchasing more items! Oh, and you might see, if you read the post, that I never said the effects of the buff would stop immediately. That's because I read the class, and I know how it works (kinda funny how that correlates to your cute little attempt to flame me).
This is rapidly becoming amusing. What items? The feat allows you to use items, but doesn’t mean you have to. The feat by the way, is one of the most highly recommended feats for any bard that wants to actually cast spells in combat, so its hardly a stretch to take it. Its kind of like a druid not taking Natural Spell. You can see it happening, but you sure wonder why. Which clearly demonstrates that some posters here are informed and some are just entertaining.

Bard benefits nonsense: I already went over how those skills are hardly useful. Of course, you might play campaigns where those skills are very necessary. Most campaigns don't run that way. And if the bard is stocking Int for his skill (goodness knows why) and Cha for his spells and buffs, then his Dex will be third on the list and won't be all that fantastic, especially with his medium BAB.
Back to the entertainment. If you play Diablo D&D then yes, the bard’s skills are useless. But if your DM has actual, I don’t know, NPCs in the game, then they are some of the most useful tools for any character – and the bard specializes in them. And with 6+INT skill points per level, he doesn’t have to have a huge INT, especially if he’s also human.

You flipping out about T1: This is your response to a snide comment I made about your "UMD" garbage. It was something like, "why is the bard T3? Oh, right UMD." I was correcting you, the bard's spells and UMD are what make it T3. Its buffs are cute.
No, the bard is Tier three because of his sheer versatility, and assistance to the party. UMD is a part of that, but you can be a very effective bard, and remain squarely in the third tier, without ever spending a point in UMD. You’d be confusing to some of your contemporaries, but you could certainly do it.

Also, "cute" is generally not the word that gets said about a bard's buffs... but then again, we don't know the power level of your games. 4d6 fire damage on every attack every ally makes, is better than any other buff at level 4 game play. I can't think of one that has that damage capacity, for as many allies as can hear you, which can last for hours if need be... at level 4.


Tier 3 discussion: You're a little confused by what I'm saying, obviously:
a) BARD spellcasting raises something by 1.5 tiers. Wizard spellcasting definitely brings stuff up by 3-4.
Actually, a wizard without spell casting is a commoner. So wiz spell casting knocks the class up by 6 tiers. A bard without spells is still Tier 4, 5 in the hands of a player who doesn’t know what they are doing.

b) I was talking about how your bard runs a lot of feats to get the abilities that he gets (at levl 4, at least. We can talk higher levels if your build extends... I really have no idea whether it does or not). He's got spellcasting, but that means he sings, he does a little utility if there's something around, and then just contributes to his allies who are stabbing the monster(s) in face/shooting the monster(s) in the face. That doesn't seem like a whole lot of flexibility, especially since this guy needs to know his spells forever.
“A little utility” and “just contributes”… the players you have seen play bards didn’t look up from their Gameboys did they? Of course, that is assuming you have actually seen the class played. Where is this “lot of feats” you are talking about? At level 4, if you are going the DFI route, you have 2 feats – Dragonfire Inspiration, and Melodic Casting or Song of the Heart. Which is… well, your normal feat allotment at level 4. If you are using flaws you could have all three.

c) An off-topic idea... If the bard is buffs + utility + helping the party fight, couldn't you use someone who helps the party fight, and then give everyone some items? It seems like a nice replacement for the bard, and all you need are some wands/potions/whatever.
Yup, you could. If you have vast wealth, I am sure you could find items, at level 4, that add +4 to hit and damage, and 4d6 fire damage, to every members’ attacks in combat, while also blinding your opponents, disarming traps, scouting, smoothing over those sticky social situations, oh, and fighting in your party. Shouldn’t cost you more than your expected WBL per two or three combats. So you will need a source of incredible wealth, but sure.

SC build: Erm... last time I checked, the SC builds were meant for provided utility and lots of spells. You even said so yourself. This is a build where the bard casts spells, and casts more spells than normal because of the PrCs he's taken. But, that aside, you're changing the argument here. I was saying that you have 2 builds: This guy, and a 4-ish-level Dragonfire Inspiration dude, and that those didn't qualify as arguments for making the bard a "solid T3", since one went to level 4 and the other focused on Virtuoso and SC instead of the bard itself.

I am certainly not saying that the bard is T6. It's T3, because it has some nice spells and UMD. Don't throw around this T6 nonsense. And if you do, throw it around after you understand the reason I referenced T6.
Except you do both. You are a DFI bard, who PrCs into SC. Its that easy.

And as noted, and generally acknowledged, there are a many, many things that make the bard T3, of which spells and UMD are a part. Yes, if you took them away, you’d be looking at a lower tier, but seeing as we’re talking about the class as written – well, that’s a waste of discussion time. We could also talk about how the Crusader would be tier four or even five without maneuvers if you would like to waste some time though.


Wizard thing and "Are you Slightly Happier?" "No.": That was for PId6, who said that a Wizard would have problems dealing with what I listed for CR 4 monsters. I was only proving him wrong, so please don't let that have any implication on our debate here.
Like, honestly, just ignore everything I say to PId6. He's a few steps behind in this conversation.
The rest of your responses deal with my argument v. PId6. Please don't argue over them, as it'll bring us back to square 1 and we'll repeat 2 or 3 pages of posts. I'm not going to waste my time on that, and I request that you do the same.
Except PId6 seems to actually know what (s)he’s talking about, so his / her arguments are actually relevant and on point.

@Tyger--
Party Synergizer: Well, as great as a nice party syngergizer is, that's what magic items are for. Buffs are fantastic, but there's a reason WotC emphasizes the roles: Defense, Damage, Control, and Leader. The "buffer" is easy to emulate, as is utility. Honestly, the only reason a bard is decent material is because of his ability to closely emulate Wizard/Sorc casting via SC and Virtuoso, which makes for a great build but shows that the bard isn't worth the full 20 levels.
Which shows that you a) are willfully ignorant, or b) playing Devil’s Advovate, or c) have never actually played a bard before, or d) are playing 4e, as those are the 4e roles. WotC is the same company who assumes that clerics are healers and wizards are blasters. Opinions are one thing, but when someone is presented with considerable evidence that their opinion is not based upon reality, and continues to argue the same material over and over again, without presenting any actual information to back up that opinion, unlike every one of their detractors, that’s counter-productive.

Jeez, next thing you’ll suggest is that the monk can take out wizards. You seem to like UMD, so I am sure you’ll find a way. :smallbiggrin:

I've likely been ninjaed a half dozen times, so off to read the other replies!

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-06-12, 08:33 PM
On top of that, they have AWESOME skill lists. They have Diplomacy, along with the 3 skills that synergize it, all as class skills. They have UMD. They have Sense Motive, Tumble, Bluff, Forgery. More desired skills than most classes have skills period. They have the potential to rock most out of combat social interactions with very little investment, and with significant investments can turn a murder mystery into narrative of events without breathing hard.

Keld Denar, you are my hero for that particular quote. Your arguments have been well constructed, too, but I'll be damned if that wasn't one of the best things I have ever read here.

dextercorvia
2010-06-12, 09:28 PM
You know how they say you can't change anyone's mind on the internet? You guys (you know which ones I'm talking about) have made me want to play a bard. The only other time I tried, I was trying for a diplomancer (before I had heard the term) and that campaign got trashed after the first encounter. So would this be a good start?

Silverbrow Human

Human:DFI
1st:Song of the Heart
3rd:Melodic Casting

Should I pick up Extra Music? Is that build with Mindbender, Virtuoso and Sublime Chord still T3, or is it going to blow away an only moderately optimized group?

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-06-12, 09:33 PM
You know how they say you can't change anyone's mind on the internet? You guys (you know which ones I'm talking about) have made me want to play a bard. The only other time I tried, I was trying for a diplomancer (before I had heard the term) and that campaign got trashed after the first encounter. So would this be a good start?

Silverbrow Human

Human:DFI
1st:Song of the Heart
3rd:Melodic Casting

Should I pick up Extra Music? Is that build with Mindbender, Virtuoso and Sublime Chord still T3, or is it going to blow away an only moderately optimized group?

Song of the Heart cannot be taken at 1st level (barring some form of awesome of which I am not aware). As for the sample build KD provided, as long as you use your Sublime Chord spells to buff your allies, its greater strength (high T3 at the low end, more likely to be T2) will be less noticeable.

PId6
2010-06-12, 09:34 PM
Silverbrow Human

Human:DFI
1st:Song of the Heart
3rd:Melodic Casting

Should I pick up Extra Music? Is that build with Mindbender, Virtuoso and Sublime Chord still T3, or is it going to blow away an only moderately optimized group?
Song of the Heart can't be taken 1st level. You can trade your Inspire Competence away for it as a bonus feat though (well worth it).

Extra Music isn't worth it if you plan on going any significant number of levels in Bard (and are not using Metamagic Song).

Sublime Chord turns it T2, but the rest doesn't affect power too much. What would overpower it would be optimizing Inspire Courage too much, so you should probably avoid Words of Creation.

Edit: Ninja'd on SotH!

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-06-12, 09:43 PM
Song of the Heart can't be taken 1st level. You can trade your Inspire Competence away for it as a bonus feat though (well worth it).

Extra Music isn't worth it if you plan on going any significant number of levels in Bard (and are not using Metamagic Song).

Sublime Chord turns it T2, but the rest doesn't affect power too much. What would overpower it would be optimizing Inspire Courage too much, so you should probably avoid Words of Creation.

Edit: Ninja'd on SotH!

Hey, hey, I'm no ninja! Pirates all the way!:smalltongue:

Also, I'm of the opinion that maximizing Inpsire Courage would not be too much, as it benefits the whole group. However, I would at least talk with your DM such that he can anticipate such in whatever encounters he designs so he doesn't make some BBEG only to have him be oneshotted by you singing so hard he craps himself.

dextercorvia
2010-06-12, 09:47 PM
I went straight to the effect of SotH, and skipped the prereq. So I will switch that with Melodic Casting.

@PId6: is that an ACF that allows you to trade Iinspire Competence away?

If I do that, what 3rd level feat do you recommend?

PId6
2010-06-12, 09:54 PM
I went straight to the effect of SotH, and skipped the prereq. So I will switch that with Melodic Casting.

@PId6: is that an ACF that allows you to trade Iinspire Competence away?

If I do that, what 3rd level feat do you recommend?
Yep, ECS 34. You can trade a Bardic Music at levels 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, or 18 in exchange for a feat off of a small list. Song of the Heart is by far the best.

Song of the White Raven if you want to start multiclassing into Crusader or Warblade. Snowflake Wardance (It's Cold Outside) is great for going into melee. Versatile Spellcaster (RotD) is quite helpful for any spontaneous caster. Otherwise check the Bard Handbook (it's linked around here somewhere).

Fax Celestis
2010-06-12, 09:58 PM
Buy Slippers of Battledancing from DMG-II. 34000 gp for +10' land speed, +5 Tumble, +2 init if your Perform (Dance) is over 5, and lets you use Cha instead of Str for attack and damage with one-handed or light weapons if you move at least 10'.

PId6
2010-06-12, 10:08 PM
Buy Slippers of Battledancing from DMG-II. 34000 gp for +10' land speed, +5 Tumble, +2 init if your Perform (Dance) is over 5, and lets you use Cha instead of Str for attack and damage with one-handed or light weapons if you move at least 10'.
Stacks nicely with Snowflake Wardance for Cha x2 to attack.

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-06-12, 10:13 PM
Also works wonders if you throw those bonuses onto these badboys. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cw/20061120a)

Tyger
2010-06-12, 10:39 PM
Song of the Heart can't be taken 1st level. You can trade your Inspire Competence away for it as a bonus feat though (well worth it).

Not sure about this one. The text is a bit confusing... the ECS stipulates that you can trade away your new bardic music ability at 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, 18... which specifically states that you can take one of those feats at third level. But Song of the Heart requires you to have Inspire Competence...

Odd there. Wonder if that has ever been erratad or clarified, or if its just a matter of 'you can take any of these, if you qualify for them otherwise.'

I had originally planned to take it at level 3, till I noticed the mixup there.

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-06-12, 10:48 PM
Not sure about this one. The text is a bit confusing... the ECS stipulates that you can trade away your new bardic music ability at 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, 18... which specifically states that you can take one of those feats at third level. But Song of the Heart requires you to have Inspire Competence...

Odd there. Wonder if that has ever been erratad or clarified, or if its just a matter of 'you can take any of these, if you qualify for them otherwise.'

I had originally planned to take it at level 3, till I noticed the mixup there.

I think it then becomes a matter that you could take it, but you won't get the benefits of it if you don't meet the requirements of the feat, not unlike a fighter being unable to power attack if his strength dips below 13. This is of course based on the general rules, as there seems to be no specific text to trump them in this case.

PId6
2010-06-12, 10:54 PM
Not sure about this one. The text is a bit confusing... the ECS stipulates that you can trade away your new bardic music ability at 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, 18... which specifically states that you can take one of those feats at third level. But Song of the Heart requires you to have Inspire Competence...

Odd there. Wonder if that has ever been erratad or clarified, or if its just a matter of 'you can take any of these, if you qualify for them otherwise.'

I had originally planned to take it at level 3, till I noticed the mixup there.
Hmm, you are right. That's really strange. Blech, I think you do need to keep Inspire Competence by RAW. Unfortunate.

Keld Denar
2010-06-12, 11:26 PM
I actually ran a bard in a level 7 game that PId6 DMed. I didn't have Dragonfire, and one of the characters didn't really benefit from IC due to being a primary caster, but it still helped the beatdown Cleric and the Warblade/Crusader we had. If there had been a 5th party member, as well, it would have been on. I mostly used a +1 Sudden Stunning Longsword with Whirling Blade for a disable, using Glitterdust and Grease to low foes down so the others could hack them apart. I also carried a net in my offhand, even though I wasn't proficient, as the +4 to hit from IC pretty much canceled out the -4 non-proficiency penalty, and hitting with a net is only a touch attack. That gave me an extra debuff to stack on so the Cleric could Power Attack for more. Was a pretty decent setup.

And yea, Mindbender telepathy + bluff is epic. If you don't believe me, ask the frightened group of trolls who should have been searching the far coast for a "holy relic of great power" to please their god. Bless them and their lackluster intellect. Too bad they were intercepted and redirected, or they would still be out there lookin for it. It was a valiant effort.

PId6
2010-06-12, 11:39 PM
I actually ran a bard in a level 7 game that PId6 DMed. I didn't have Dragonfire, and one of the characters didn't really benefit from IC due to being a primary caster, but it still helped the beatdown Cleric and the Warblade/Crusader we had. If there had been a 5th party member, as well, it would have been on. I mostly used a +1 Sudden Stunning Longsword with Whirling Blade for a disable, using Glitterdust and Grease to low foes down so the others could hack them apart. I also carried a net in my offhand, even though I wasn't proficient, as the +4 to hit from IC pretty much canceled out the -4 non-proficiency penalty, and hitting with a net is only a touch attack. That gave me an extra debuff to stack on so the Cleric could Power Attack for more. Was a pretty decent setup.
The Glitterdust really drove me nuts. It was terribly effective and shut down a lot of things, though on reflection it's still not powerful enough to deserve houseruling. I remember you using the net once though, and it was on something already down. :smalltongue:


And yea, Mindbender telepathy + bluff is epic. If you don't believe me, ask the frightened group of trolls who should have been searching the far coast for a "holy relic of great power" to please their god. Bless them and their lackluster intellect. Too bad they were intercepted and redirected, or they would still be out there lookin for it. It was a valiant effort.
Glibness, now that deserves houseruling, or at least careful application of how Bluff works. Trolls aren't really that smart though, so you probably would have succeeded regardless.

Keld Denar
2010-06-12, 11:48 PM
Here's the bluff, it was pretty good, if I do say so myself...

COWER IN FEAR, MY SLAVE! YOUR MASTER HAS COME TO CALL! KNOW THAT I WOULD NOT HESITATE A MOMENT TO DESTROY YOU AND YOUR KIN, SHOULD YOU DISPLEASE ME. I SEEK A CHAMPION TO BRING DESTRUCTION UPON MY ENEMIES. YOUR FEROCITY IN BATTLE HAS BROUGHT MY ATTENTION UPON YOU. GLORY AND POWER WILL AWAIT YOU IN MY NAME. IF YOU PROVE YOURSELF WORTHY, I SHALL BESTOW UPON YOU MY FAVOR WHICH YOU WILL USE TO CRUSH ALL BEFORE YOU AND GRIND THEIR BONES TO DUST. GATHER YOUR CLAN THIS NIGHT. LEAVE AND HEAD NORTH. DO NOT STOP THIS NIGHT, OR THE NEXT UNTIL YOU REACH THE COAST. CRUSH ANY TROLLS WHO REFUSE TO ACOMPANY YOU. WHEN YOU COME UPON THE PLACE THAT I HAVE MARKED WITH MY SIGN, CAMP THERE UNTIL I GIVE YOU FURTHER DIRECTION. FOLLOW MY WILL AND YOUR CLAN WILL BE REWARDED WITH MY BLESSING AND YOUR STRENGTH WILL BE MAGNIFIED IN MY GLORY. FAIL OR DISOBEY ME, AND I SHALL SEND A GREAT PILLAR OF FIRE FROM THE SKY TO DESTROY YOU AND YOUR CLAN AS IF YOU NEVER EXISTED. THIS IS THE WILL OF VAPRAK!

PId6
2010-06-12, 11:52 PM
Here's the bluff, it was pretty good, if I do say so myself...

COWER IN FEAR, MY SLAVE! YOUR MASTER HAS COME TO CALL! KNOW THAT I WOULD NOT HESITATE A MOMENT TO DESTROY YOU AND YOUR KIN, SHOULD YOU DISPLEASE ME. I SEEK A CHAMPION TO BRING DESTRUCTION UPON MY ENEMIES. YOUR FEROCITY IN BATTLE HAS BROUGHT MY ATTENTION UPON YOU. GLORY AND POWER WILL AWAIT YOU IN MY NAME. IF YOU PROVE YOURSELF WORTHY, I SHALL BESTOW UPON YOU MY FAVOR WHICH YOU WILL USE TO CRUSH ALL BEFORE YOU AND GRIND THEIR BONES TO DUST. GATHER YOUR CLAN THIS NIGHT. LEAVE AND HEAD NORTH. DO NOT STOP THIS NIGHT, OR THE NEXT UNTIL YOU REACH THE COAST. CRUSH ANY TROLLS WHO REFUSE TO ACOMPANY YOU. WHEN YOU COME UPON THE PLACE THAT I HAVE MARKED WITH MY SIGN, CAMP THERE UNTIL I GIVE YOU FURTHER DIRECTION. FOLLOW MY WILL AND YOUR CLAN WILL BE REWARDED WITH MY BLESSING AND YOUR STRENGTH WILL BE MAGNIFIED IN MY GLORY. FAIL OR DISOBEY ME, AND I SHALL SEND A GREAT PILLAR OF FIRE FROM THE SKY TO DESTROY YOU AND YOUR CLAN AS IF YOU NEVER EXISTED. THIS IS THE WILL OF VAPRAK!

That may have contributed a circumstance bonus or two... or twenty...

For Valor
2010-06-13, 06:23 PM
Yikes... that's an awful lot of people saying the exact same thing over and over.

'K, if anyone really cares at all, please do me a favor and PM something to me. I've got a paragraph for each of your responses (and a few to c/p off of the board from beforehand), but I'm not spending the time.

Good luck making Have fun making your Bard decent in combat.

Smiling Knight
2010-06-13, 07:21 PM
Can't even give up without a parting snipe...

Tyger
2010-06-13, 07:30 PM
Yikes... that's an awful lot of people saying the exact same thing over and over.

'K, if anyone really cares at all, please do me a favor and PM something to me. I've got a paragraph for each of your responses (and a few to c/p off of the board from beforehand), but I'm not spending the time.

Good luck making Have fun making your Bard decent in combat.

Nice. Don't support the arguments you make, and when people refute them, politely explain that its not worth your time.

As a general rule, this practise is referred to, by those being polite, as rude.

Thiyr
2010-06-13, 08:06 PM
Oddly enough, this argument has made me want to try my hand at a battle-bard at some point. Because having something to do all the time is nice, doubly so when you're able to make everyone a good beatstick (yourself included) at the same time.

-grumbles and writes it at the bottom of the Characters I Want To Play list- Stupid lists and your tendencies to keep growing on me.

Flickerdart
2010-06-13, 09:04 PM
Can't even give up without a parting snipe...
http://www.bishopthorpe.net/mt/nature_notes/images/snipe_tcm9-166887.jpg

Fig. 1: A parting snipe.

Raistlin1040
2010-06-17, 01:14 AM
So, I'm running my own campaign, and don't have the time to devote fully to playing in another, and the DM of that campaign made an "OHSNAP" face when I showed him my absurd IC spamming. So he's making me a recurring NPC at level 20. Keeping in line with powergaming LIKE A BOSS, what can I do to guarantee most cheese?

PId6
2010-06-17, 01:32 AM
So, I'm running my own campaign, and don't have the time to devote fully to playing in another, and the DM of that campaign made an "OHSNAP" face when I showed him my absurd IC spamming. So he's making me a recurring NPC at level 20. Keeping in line with powergaming LIKE A BOSS, what can I do to guarantee most cheese?
Make sure to take Sublime Chord (CArc), since that improves your spellcasting to that of a sorcerer's. Bard 5/Mindbender 1/Whatever 4/Sublime Chord 1/Full Casting +9 works very well.

The biggest cheese with Inspire Courage comes from Words of Creation, which requires being Good. So if it's supposed to be an enemy, that may be problematic, either requiring handwaving of that requirement or some strange fluff (assuming non-evil party).

Raistlin1040
2010-06-17, 01:39 AM
Recurring Ally, I should say. I'm Neutral Good, or possibly Chaotic Good.

PId6
2010-06-17, 01:42 AM
Ah, then I'd suggest Bard 9/Virtuoso 1/Sublime Chord 1/Virtuoso +9.

Raistlin1040
2010-06-17, 01:51 AM
It wouldn't be such an OP bard otherwise, but just because I don't necessarily see how, with that build, I get 9th level spells as if I were Sublime Chord 10? I add Virtuoso levels to Bard Levels to Sublime Chord levels?

ZeroNumerous
2010-06-17, 01:56 AM
It wouldn't be such an OP bard otherwise, but just because I don't necessarily see how, with that build, I get 9th level spells as if I were Sublime Chord 10? I add Virtuoso levels to Bard Levels to Sublime Chord levels?

Bard 9 is stand-alone. Virtuoso 1 adds no spell levels. Sublime Chord opens Sublime Chord casting. Sublime Chord calculates your CL as equal to the collective whole of all your arcane casting classes. Virtuoso +9 advances Sublime Chord spellcasting.

You cast as a Bard 9/Sublime Chord 10 with a CL of 19.

Raistlin1040
2010-06-17, 01:58 AM
Ah. So my spell breakdown should be something like:

3/3/3/2/4/4/4/4/3/2

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-06-17, 02:13 AM
Nice. Don't support the arguments you make, and when people refute them, politely explain that its not worth your time.

As a general rule, this practise is referred to, by those being polite, as rude.

And to those not being polite as 'trolling for flamebait'... which also happens to be against forum rules.

min/maxing your Inspire Courage is always worthwhile, it just has so many useful and fun applications. DFI, while nice, is kind of like the icing on the cake. Massive bonuses to attack and damage benefit every attacker, most particularly any TWFing rogues or other 3/4 BAB 'striker' type builds with lots of attacks. Not only does each attack get your IC bonus, but more of them will hit because of said bonus.

And it stacks with GMW.

The hardest rocking party I ever saw had a Cloistered Spontaneous Cleric buffbot/healbot and an IC-focused bard. DMM Chain + GMW + IC = complete pwnage.

See also the link in my sig about how a mere bard can challenge even an optimized Batman Wizard... with sufficient Diplomancy, he can literally turn the world against you. And there's some pretty nasty things in the world...

Tyger
2010-06-17, 06:55 AM
Good point Shneekey, I was out of line. Thanks for calling me on it.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-06-17, 07:55 AM
Good point Shneekey, I was out of line. Thanks for calling me on it.

I was referring to For Valor, not to you. You were being polite. He was making unsubstantiated claims and stirring up flames. There's a big difference.

Tyger
2010-06-17, 08:07 AM
I was referring to For Valor, not to you. You were being polite. He was making unsubstantiated claims and stirring up flames. There's a big difference.

*chuckles* Having re-read what I wrote, I thought it was a bit snarky too, thus my thanks. Good to know that I wasn't seen that way, but my thanks stand, as what I wrote was a tad over the top. Perhaps deservedly so, but still a touch too much.

Raistlin1040
2010-06-17, 01:46 PM
So, what would you guys suggest for feat selection? I've got the Dragon-related ones, and Words of Creation, Song of Heart, etc.

PId6
2010-06-17, 02:47 PM
So, what would you guys suggest for feat selection? I've got the Dragon-related ones, and Words of Creation, Song of Heart, etc.
Melodic Casting (CM) is pretty important for any bard that want to cast spells. Snowflake Wardance (Frost) is great for going into melee. Lingering Song (CAdv) isn't bad if you have room.

Keld Denar
2010-06-17, 03:08 PM
I'm discovering the joys of Lyric Spell in my RL game, currently level 6 (it was my 6th level feat).

Especially at mid levels when you are just starting to cast spells seriously, Lyric Spell gives you a little more daily longevity. You typically only need about 3-4 songs per day, so you can burn the rest to get more spell slots. Extra 2nd level spells are only 3 songs each, not a bad investment for 2-3 more slots per day if you have Extra Song.