Katana Question [3.5]

[Hendel]

I know a Katana is considered to be a Bastard Sword and that makes sense because it can be used in one hand or two. However, it is not a weapon that can be used with Weapon Finesse. I have always thought that a katana could be used with brute force (Str), but that it can also be used with finesse (Dex) to strike accurately.

Is there anything better out there than making a katana a masterwork bastard sword?

I liked the Elven Courtblade from RoW, but it is always a two-handed weapon. I also liked the Aldori Dueling Sword from the Pathfinder supplement Adventure's Armory (borrowing a little from Pathfinder there).

I know I could just houserule something, but I was looking for a published source for something more to what I desire out of the katana.

[Starbuck_II]

I know a Katana is considered to be a Bastard Sword and that makes sense because it can be used in one hand or two. However, it is not a weapon that can be used with Weapon Finesse. I have always thought that a katana could be used with brute force (Str), but that it can also be used with finesse (Dex) to strike accurately.

Is there anything better out there than making a katana a masterwork bastard sword?

I liked the Elven Courtblade from RoW, but it is always a two-handed weapon. I also liked the Aldori Dueling Sword from the Pathfinder supplement Adventure's Armory (borrowing a little from Pathfinder there).

I know I could just houserule something, but I was looking for a published source for something more to what I desire out of the katana.

So you want a 1 handed weapon finesse Weapon? Rapier works.
As you mentioned Elven Coutblade is 2 handed + Weapon Finesse.

Can you explain what you want and what you don't?

[Yuki Akuma]

Sun Blade (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#sunBlade).

[Hendel]

So you want a 1 handed weapon finesse Weapon? Rapier works.
As you mentioned Elven Coutblade is 2 handed + Weapon Finesse.

Can you explain what you want and what you don't?

I would like something that is like a katana but able to use Weapon Finesse.

I could just call a rapier a katana and tell the DM that instead of a foil, I have more of a sabre with a blade on it like a katana. I was just hoping that somewhere out there was a better descripton of a katana than to call it a bastard sword, because the two has some big differences. It justs seems lazy to me.

[Hendel]

Sun Blade (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#sunBlade).

Cool, I hadn't thought of a Sun Blade Katana!! Looks and feels like a katana, but is useable like a short sword (or maybe wakizashi in this case).

Thanks! Anything else?

[Shademan]

In general, weapon finesse should applu to way more weapons. whenever I dm I houserule that you can use it for whatever.

[Spiryt]

I would like something that is like a katana but able to use Weapon Finesse.

I could just call a rapier a katana and tell the DM that instead of a foil, I have more of a sabre with a blade on it like a katana. I was just hoping that somewhere out there was a better descripton of a katana than to call it a bastard sword, because the two has some big differences. It justs seems lazy to me.

Glaive and your "standard" greataxe has way bigger differences. And they're differentiated by "reach". "Shortsword" and "handaxe" are different only in "slashing" vs "piercing" way.

It's D&D. All weapons are "lazy".

[kamikasei]

I have always thought that a katana could be used with brute force (Str), but that it can also be used with finesse (Dex) to strike accurately.

So can any sword. The fact that D&D uses strength for attacks is a peculiarity of the system and there's no reason to exempt katanas from it rather than any other sword. I'd definitely peg a katana as closer to a longsword or scimitar than a rapier as far as finesse might apply.

[Spiryt]

The guy(s) that made that system either didn't care, or never seen too much boxing or whatever fights, not to mention actually trying to throw a punch, do boxing, muay thai or whatever...

When you attack with "brute force" you must strike swiftly, explosively, fluently, in coordinated way et cetera.

"Dexterity" connected with "Strength". No reason to make one of them completely out of equation in "attack rolls".

But the system looks like it looks, so the simplest way to do is take greatsword or falchion and call it "katana".

[Hendel]

I agree 100% with your comment Spiryt, but I guess the game has to draw the line of simplicity over too complex when it comes to weapons and the similarities or differences.

Now, regarding a Sunblade, I know it is a specific weapon and they are usually preconstructed with the qualities presented in the SRD or DMG. However, it is a +2 weapon with a twist on bane in that it is against evil creatures and then double damage and extra crit on negative material plane creatures plus some other benefits. Say I wanted to increase the enhancement bonus or add keen or something, what would you say the starting "+" of the sword is for the purposes of enhancing it further?

I would say that since the price in the book is 50,335gp that it would be +4 or about 32,000gp for the +2 and the "bane" feature and 18,000gp on the other features of the weapon. Any thoughts?

[The Glyphstone]

10 posts in and no 'katanas are underpowered in d20' copypasta. So disappointing.

[Attilargh]

10 posts in and no 'katanas are underpowered in d20' copypasta. So disappointing.
Well, if it makes you happy (http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Katanas_are_Underpowered_in_d20).

[Drakefall]

As far as I can remember RoW had a few other elven weapons, one of them being the elven thinblade (I think?) that, for all intents and purposes, is a finessable longsword. Not quite katana-like but fairly close.

[Eldan]

Well, the strength to attack really seems to mostly be an aspect of armour penetration: after all, full plate gives a lot of AC, a lot of strength can punch through full plate. So strength on attack rolls makes sense, I'd say. But so would dex, really.

[pinwiz]

10 posts in and no 'katanas are underpowered in d20' copypasta. So disappointing.

isn't hitting something with a glorified stick underpowered?

[Spiryt]

Well, the strength to attack really seems to mostly be an aspect of armour penetration: after all, full plate gives a lot of AC, a lot of strength can punch through full plate. So strength on attack rolls makes sense, I'd say. But so would dex, really.

Nope, it's about getting the blade up to speed, about impact of attack, about deflecting other blades/objects, and (:smallwink:) cetera.

For penetration, no matter how hard you slam katana or almost any other sword in to plate element, you have almost no chance of "punching trough" anyway. It depends on what kind of realism one wants.

[PId6]

The Iaijutsu Master PrC (OA) gives you Weapon Finesse to apply to katanas. It also gets you massive damage on Iaijutsu attacks.

[Greenish]

isn't hitting something with a glorified stick underpowered?Compared to casting spells, yeah.
For penetration, no matter how hard you slam katana or almost any other sword in to plate element, you have almost no chance of "punching trough" anyway.Don't be silly, everyone knows you can cut a tank in half with a katana. ;)

[Vizzerdrix]

Compared to casting spells, yeah.Don't be silly, everyone knows you can cut a tank Battleship in half with a katana. ;)

Oh hi I fixed this 4u ^_^


Anyone know why katanas don't grant extra attacks? In boggles the mind that they don't.

[Elfin]

I agree 100% with your comment Spiryt, but I guess the game has to draw the line of simplicity over too complex when it comes to weapons and the similarities or differences.

Now, regarding a Sunblade, I know it is a specific weapon and they are usually preconstructed with the qualities presented in the SRD or DMG. However, it is a +2 weapon with a twist on bane in that it is against evil creatures and then double damage and extra crit on negative material plane creatures plus some other benefits. Say I wanted to increase the enhancement bonus or add keen or something, what would you say the starting "+" of the sword is for the purposes of enhancing it further?

I would say that since the price in the book is 50,335gp that it would be +4 or about 32,000gp for the +2 and the "bane" feature and 18,000gp on the other features of the weapon. Any thoughts?

The Lesser Sunblade, from Ravenloft, is 3000gp and possess only the dual bastard sword/short sword quality.

[Spiryt]

Don't be silly, everyone knows you can cut a tank in half with a katana. ;)

Your informations are completely outdated, thanks to courtesy of experts from polish forum, I know that katanas cut space destroyers in half.

http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/43/zzzby5.jpg
http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/2428/zzz2lp4.jpg
http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/5940/zzz3zi6.jpg
http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/8561/zzz4em0.jpg
http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/2769/zzz6ny5.jpg


The more you know.

Seven pink elephants (http://www.historycy.org/index.php?showtopic=4013&st=225&p=405011&#entry405011)

[AslanCross]

Were katanas really used one-handed apart from iaijutsu strikes? Considering the usual length of the hilt, I'd think they're primarily meant to be used two-handed.

[Yuki Akuma]

It is very difficult to use a sword from horseback two-handed.

[Spiryt]

Were katanas really used one-handed apart from iaijutsu strikes? Considering the usual length of the hilt, I'd think they're primarily meant to be used two-handed.

They evolved from horseman sword, and were used like that ocassionaly up ~1500 ( I think) so I would say that they were definetely used one handed. At least one knowledgable guy was writing than from 11th century form of tachi/katanas were generally chaning very little, and mounted combat was occuring.

And one handed grip (for a while) in foot combat also has it uses (whole point of bastard swords after all).

[Talon Sky]

Were katanas really used one-handed apart from iaijutsu strikes? Considering the usual length of the hilt, I'd think they're primarily meant to be used two-handed.

Two-Heavens sword style. So Yes :)

[AslanCross]

@all of the above: Ah, I see. Thanks for clearing that up. I thought that Musashi's style was mostly just used by him and wasn't really as common as the Complete Warrior Samurai would have us believe.

[RandomLunatic]

@all of the above: Ah, I see. Thanks for clearing that up. I thought that Musashi's style was mostly just used by him and wasn't really as common as the Complete Warrior Samurai would have us believe.

I could be wrong, but I believe the unusual part was dual-wielding katana and wakizashi at the same time.

[Xyk]

Well, if it makes you happy (http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Katanas_are_Underpowered_in_d20).

I found this more and more humorous as I scrolled down. I especially liked the lightsaber one.


I should know what I'm talking about. I myself commissioned a genuine lightsaber on Ord Mantell for 2,400,000 Imperial Credits (that's about $18) and have been practicing with it for almost 2 years now.

Everyone knows lightsabers only cost about 700 credits at your basic merchant. That prune got ripped off.

Edit: I was wrong, it gets boring real fast after that point.

[The Glyphstone]

Well, that pretty much sums up all copypasta. After a certain point, it loses its fun, since it's the same thing reprinted over and over with minor variations.

[TimeWizard]

No. Stop. No.

katanas are not finesse weapons. Katanas are not finesse weapons. THEY ARE NOT FINESSE WEAPONS! Anime and movies have so clouded they mass of minds on the internet with over the top swordsmanship. NOT FINESSE.

Kendo. Kendo we know. Kendo is not dexterous. Kendo is not about tricky flourishes or flexibly slipping around an opponent's sword. Kendo is about cleaving. Kendo is about slicing through wrists with overhead chops. Kendo is about tricking your enemy mentally. Kendo is about using a three foot curved piece of metal to slash your opponent's forehead, wrist, ribs, or throat. Not Dexterity. Skill != dexterity. Kendo masters are not Drizzt'ing people up.

The nine basic techniques involve slash, block and slash, slap and slash, slash some more, slash before other people, and step back and slash. Not one involves anything more dexterous than stepping back and to the side.

Musashi, Kenshin, Everybody Else, --- No!

Get this idea out of your heads! THANK YOU!

GOODNIGHT!

[lsfreak]

No. Stop. No.

katanas are not finesse weapons. All swords are finesse weapons. And strength weapons. Simultaneously!

I fixed that for you.

[Yuki Akuma]

-snip-

Try wielding a sword some time and telling me it has nothing to do with hand-eye coordination.

[Hadrian_Emrys]

Were katanas

:smalleek:

An elusive Were-Katana in hydrid form:

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080102154325/onepiece/images/thumb/b/ba/SupaSupnoMi.png/215px-SupaSupnoMi.png


I just want to know what wizard went and decided that playing god with the likes of owlbears was too mundane and raised the bar for "hybrids-that-should-not-be" to this obscene level.

[balistafreak]

Try wielding a sword some time and telling me it has nothing to do with hand-eye coordination.

To be fair, I'd argue that a slashing-sport like kendo needs less hand-eye coordination than modern fencing, which is almost all about that one, practically unparriable lunge. (Seriously, just look at the number of double-touches in the sport. No use at all in practicality, because then you'd both be dead.) It instead requires reflexes and mental anticipation, because the attack has to be announced* - you have to only have to hear it, comprehend it, and not stand like in a deer in headlights (which happens ALL THE TIME) in order to parry it.

That's not to say that you can't try to trick your opponent, but I was under the impression that was looked down upon.

Of course, in real sword fighting you're not going to shout out your attack.

*Maybe this is the influence on manga/anime. :smallconfused:

[sambo.]

personally; if i'm going to insist that someone blow a feat on Exotic Weapon Proficiency for a katana, i'm going to give them something for that expense.

generally an expanded critical range (say, 17-20 x2?) evens a katana (or bastard sword) up with the infamous Spiked Chain.

if it's a high powered game, maybe improving the Power Attack multiplier might be useful.

[Xuc Xac]

Anyone know why katanas don't grant extra attacks? In boggles the mind that they don't.

Because you only need one. Didn't you see the picture of the guy cutting a battleship in half?



@all of the above: Ah, I see. Thanks for clearing that up. I thought that Musashi's style was mostly just used by him and wasn't really as common as the Complete Warrior Samurai would have us believe.

Musashi only used two swords at the same time when he was outnumbered and needed to attack and defend in more than one direction at a time. In a one-on-one fight, he used one sword with a two handed grip.



They evolved from horseman sword, and were used like that ocassionaly up ~1500 ( I think) so I would say that they were definetely used one handed. At least one knowledgable guy was writing than from 11th century form of tachi/katanas were generally chaning very little, and mounted combat was occuring.

They were used from horseback (although in the 11th century, they were using the predecessors of the katana, because the katana wasn't developed until the 14th century), but not as a primary weapon. They used a bow or a spear and only switched to a sword when enemy foot soldiers were too close or the spear broke.

[Coidzor]

To be fair, I'd argue that a slashing-sport like kendo needs less hand-eye coordination than modern fencing, which is almost all about that one, practically unparriable lunge. (Seriously, just look at the number of double-touches in the sport. No use at all in practicality, because then you'd both be dead.) It instead requires reflexes and mental anticipation, because the attack has to be announced* - you have to only have to hear it, comprehend it, and not stand like in a deer in headlights (which happens ALL THE TIME) in order to parry it.

That's not to say that you can't try to trick your opponent, but I was under the impression that was looked down upon.

Of course, in real sword fighting you're not going to shout out your attack.

*Maybe this is the influence on manga/anime. :smallconfused:

Man. I'd love to learn fencing and then I am reminded about how gimped it is. I guess I'll just have to wait until Italian Longsword is also ruined for me.

[Worira]

You can actually find some places that give practical instruction (well, practical in the event that you're carrying a sword with you and your opponent isn't carrying a gun) on the rapier. One thing that's made very clear is that if you stab your opponent a split-second before he stabs you, you're just as dead as if it happens the other way around.

[Thespianus]

Well, if it makes you happy (http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Katanas_are_Underpowered_in_d20).

Thank you. It really did make me happy. :smallbiggrin:

[DragoonWraith]

You can actually find some places that give practical instruction (well, practical in the event that you're carrying a sword with you and your opponent isn't carrying a gun) on the rapier. One thing that's made very clear is that if you stab your opponent a split-second before he stabs you, you're just as dead as if it happens the other way around.
I'm told that fencers who get into more realistic sword dueling often have a lot of trouble adjusting to things like that.

But those who do, at least those who are good fencers, are fast as freaks, as they say.

[J.Gellert]

You can actually find some places that give practical instruction (well, practical in the event that you're carrying a sword with you and your opponent isn't carrying a gun) on the rapier. One thing that's made very clear is that if you stab your opponent a split-second before he stabs you, you're just as dead as if it happens the other way around.

We need a swordfighting sport where getting hit at all loses you the match. :smallredface:

[Another_Poet]

I know a Katana is considered to be a Bastard Sword and that makes sense because it can be used in one hand or two. However, it is not a weapon that can be used with Weapon Finesse. I have always thought that a katana could be used with brute force (Str), but that it can also be used with finesse (Dex) to strike accurately.

Really, this is true of any weapon. Seriously, if you watch a master using a greatsword (a claymore!) you will see a level of dexterity and finesse unrivalled by most D&D rogues. All swords require this.

In D&D however, only select weapons qualify for weapon finesse. It's not a realistic game, and it need not be any more realistic for katana than for claymores :)

ap

[kamikasei]

It instead requires reflexes and mental anticipation, because the attack has to be announced* - you have to only have to hear it, comprehend it, and not stand like in a deer in headlights (which happens ALL THE TIME) in order to parry it.

I believe kendo also requires you to declare the strike you're going for in order for it to count.

[Mongoose87]

You can actually find some places that give practical instruction (well, practical in the event that you're carrying a sword with you and your opponent isn't carrying a gun) on the rapier. One thing that's made very clear is that if you stab your opponent a split-second before he stabs you, you're just as dead as if it happens the other way around.

Didn't actual rapier duels, when they used to be to the death, usually also involve a parrying knife in the off-hand?

[Eldan]

That would depend on the style. But at least from pictures I've seen: parrying knifes, combat cloaks, bucklers...

[Yora]

I believe kendo also requires you to declare the strike you're going for in order for it to count.
I think you're thinking of kiai. They are just a technique to put all your strength into a strike by shouting at the same time.
They are not actually calling their attacks. :smallwink:

For which wouldn't be any time, as kendo champions can switch between strikes in a fraction of a second. However you must make a kiai for a strike to count. Else it's just sloppy and not convincing to the referees that the hit was on purpose and not just luck.

[Roderick_BR]

No. Stop. No.

katanas are not finesse weapons. Katanas are not finesse weapons. THEY ARE NOT FINESSE WEAPONS! Anime and movies have so clouded they mass of minds on the internet with over the top swordsmanship. NOT FINESSE.

Kendo. Kendo we know. Kendo is not dexterous. Kendo is not about tricky flourishes or flexibly slipping around an opponent's sword. Kendo is about cleaving. Kendo is about slicing through wrists with overhead chops. Kendo is about tricking your enemy mentally. Kendo is about using a three foot curved piece of metal to slash your opponent's forehead, wrist, ribs, or throat. Not Dexterity. Skill != dexterity. Kendo masters are not Drizzt'ing people up.

The nine basic techniques involve slash, block and slash, slap and slash, slash some more, slash before other people, and step back and slash. Not one involves anything more dexterous than stepping back and to the side.

Musashi, Kenshin, Everybody Else, --- No!

Get this idea out of your heads! THANK YOU!

GOODNIGHT!
I'm not sure, but I think there's a class that allows you to finesse katanas, but whatever.

As for rules: D&D uses masterwork bastard swords as katanas (so, katanas are always MW weapons). You want to be able to finesse katanas (bastards swords). I have a better option, that I was just working on today:
All light weapons can be used with DEX instead of STR. Rapiers, whips, and all those similar weapons, have the finesse property, meaning that they can be used with DEX as well. Everything else can be used with DEX if you buy the Weapon Finesse feat. In a way, reverting the feat tax.

[kamikasei]

I think you're thinking of kiai. They are just a technique to put all your strength into a strike by shouting at the same time.
They are not actually calling their attacks. :smallwink:

*researches*

Ah, apparently it's just common to use the name of the target as your kiai when starting out, but only the kiai itself is actually required. I was misled by the fact that my source involved junior practitioners.

[2xMachina]

Musashi only used two swords at the same time when he was outnumbered and needed to attack and defend in more than one direction at a time. In a one-on-one fight, he used one sword with a two handed grip.



TWF for mooks! THF for duels! Sounds right for D&D.

[Matthew]

I'm not sure, but I think there's a class that allows you to finesse katana...

Apparently, the Iaijutsu Master prestige class from Oriental Adventures.

[Blackfang108]

I was just hoping that somewhere out there was a better descripton of a katana than to call it a bastard sword, because the two has some big differences. It justs seems lazy to me.

No, the two are exactly the same mechanically, except that the Katana is rather awkward when thrusting.

[Kaiyanwang]

Apparently, the Iaijutsu Master prestige class from Oriental Adventures.

This is correct. The class offers a good boost to iaijutsu focus damage, too (add charisma modifier for EACH die. Ouch).

[TimeWizard]

I fixed that for you.

No you most certainly did not.


Try wielding a sword some time and telling me it has nothing to do with hand-eye coordination.

I have, thank you very much. I'm insulted that you would assume I critiqued strongly against an idea without practical, hands on knowledge of the subject. The degree to which sword fighting requires hand eye varies. I cannot answer for fencing or the like because I do not have experience with them. I have Kendo experience, and beyond the most rudimentary skills of moving legs and arms in a controlled fashion, Kendo techniques and sparring to not, in any way, require a dexterous or nimble touch. The sword is held in two hands. The targets are fixed. There exist only a limited number of strikes that can be executed based on target and relative position. Fixed techniques are delivered. There is nothing in the art of using a katana that benefits from increased dexterity. You are, fundamentally, chopping through an opponent with a two handed downward strike*.

*Yes, upward strikes exist, as do stabs at the throat. But they are rare exceptions and not the bread and butter of Kendo. Of the two, the throat stab tsuki, is more common, being deliverable from more stances and appropriate to more situations.

Edit: typo

[Optimystik]

I think we can all agree that the irrelevance of Dex for melee combat in D&D is an abstraction and was meant more for balance than realism.

I prefer Dragon Age, where both Str and Dex contribute to your "to-hit" stat. D&D has a tendency to dismiss such interactions by saying "use whichever bonus is higher and ignore the other" - again, a balance concern, not a realism concern.

[Matthew]

I think we can all agree that the irrelevance of Dexterity for melee combat in D&D is an abstraction and was meant more for balance than realism.

I prefer Dragon Age, where both Strength and Dexterity contribute to your "to-hit" statistic. D&D has a tendency to dismiss such interactions by saying "use whichever bonus is higher and ignore the other" - again, a balance concern, not a realism concern.

Exactly so, and on top of that we have identified a class ability that allows exactly what the original poster was looking for. Cannot really say fairer than that. :smallbiggrin:

[Greenish]

No, the two are exactly the same mechanically, except that the Katana is rather awkward when thrusting.So is apparently D&D bastard sword, given that you can't do piercing damage with it.

[Yuki Akuma]

-snip-

No, sorry, a kendo shinai is not a katana. It's not even a sword - it's a piece of bamboo. It's not even shaped particularly like a sword.

Now, if you said you had experience with kenjutsu (the art of swordsmanship) rather than kendo (the sport of swordsmanship) I may have taken you seriously.

[Hendel]

Exactly so, and on top of that we have identified a class ability that allows exactly what the original poster was looking for. Cannot really say fairer than that. :smallbiggrin:

Thank you Matthew and Optimystik for bringing this back to what I originally intended.

I just wanted an in-GAME way of representing what I wanted to have happen with a particular character's weapon of choice. Maybe I should not have even referenced any real world facts or opinions.

I realize that there are different ways to look at something and in this case someone who focuses on kendo might disagree with some one who is into more traditional kenjutsu versus someone who focuses more on iaido or iaijutsu or someone who combines all of the above. I have less familiarity with the bastard sword or the hand and a half sword or the claymore or whatever you want to call it or any of a hundred variances on it depending on what country or clan you call as your own.

I agree that it is hard to accurately represent some things in game the way they should be represented without a more complex set of rules. I just wanted to find out more information about ways around the Weapon Finesse feat with certain weapons and I did get some useful information.

[Grommen]

No, sorry, a kendo shinai is not a katana. It's not even a sword - it's a piece of bamboo. It's not even shaped particularly like a sword.

Now, if you said you had experience with kenjutsu (the art of swordsmanship) rather than kendo (the sport of swordsmanship) I may have taken you seriously.

You are an increadably arrogant person. I commend you for being the center of your own world. The fact that you are wrong will not change your opinion so let us move on.

I would not have much of a problem allowing someone to wield a Katana and use his Dex bonus as the bonus for the attacks. It might be slightly unrealistic (yes I'm aware it takes a bit of coordination and strength) but from a game mechanics stand point it does not wreck the system.

I see a lot of people get hung up on semantics over D&D. You can't build a combat system that is 100% real. It would be really complex and take way to long. You just can't. So they have made systems that are accurate to a point, and are somewhat balanced. So what if you call it a Katana and use the same rules as a Bastard Sword. So you call it "Weapon Finesse" as an excuse to use dex over str. In the long run it is a bonus to attack.

[kamikasei]

I would not have much of a problem allowing someone to wield a Katana and use his Dex bonus as the bonus for the attacks. It might be slightly unrealistic (yes I'm aware it takes a bit of coordination and strength) but from a game mechanics stand point it does not wreck the system.

Sure. The question of whether it's reasonable or balanced is quite separate from whether it makes sense for katanas and not other swords to be treated this way based on the real-world weapons they're meant to model.

[Optimystik]

Without a way to independently verify the swordsmanship credentials of the various Playgrounders, I move we table Kenjutsu discussion and associated flames indefinitely.

To those involved... this is entirely tongue-in-cheek, there is no need to post your swordsmanship credentials.

[Draz74]

Without a way to independently verify the swordsmanship credentials of the various Playgrounders,

I don't know what you're talking about. I say we make them all meet at high noon and fight to the death!!!

[Greenish]

Without a way to independently verify the swordsmanship credentials of the various Playgrounders, I move we table Kenjutsu discussion and associated flames indefinitely.I'm a real Ninja so I know everything about Ninja Swords. Obviously you can't verify this, since I'm a Ninja, and we're Masters of Stealth.

Now, I didn't mention cutting battleships in two because I personally only have experience with cutting tanks, but with my broad knowledge of the subject I can indeed confirm that it's possible.

[PersonMan]

I don't know what you're talking about. I say we make them all meet at high noon and fight to the death!!!

Well, that might be a problem. I mean, high noon for me could be mid-afternoon or mid-morning for Fighter 1 and Fighter 2!

[Worira]

Also, I'm really a 700 year old vampire, so the high noon bit could be a problem.

[Draz74]

Well, that might be a problem. I mean, high noon for me could be mid-afternoon or mid-morning for Fighter 1 and Fighter 2!


Also, I'm really a 700 year old vampire, so the high noon bit could be a problem.

I'm still not seeing the problem here. All of these objections just make me believe it will be all the more amusing for me to sit and watch this fight unfold, eating my popcorn.

[2xMachina]

Wait, which part of the Shinai is a bamboo stick that doesn't resemble a sword is wrong? (Well, ok, it might kinda look like a sword, but swords generally aren't straight nor that thick)

Or is it the Kendo/Kenjutsu part?

[PersonMan]

Wait, which part of the Shinai is a bamboo stick that doesn't resemble a sword is wrong? (Well, ok, it might kinda look like a sword, but swords generally aren't straight nor that thick)

Or is it the Kendo/Kenjutsu part?

No idea, but this argument has become...pretty heated, and could burst into flames at any moment. Pun intended.

So we're just sort of going to shelve that issue.


I'm still not seeing the problem here. All of these objections just make me believe it will be all the more amusing for me to sit and watch this fight unfold, eating my popcorn.

...I see. So, how will this be amusing? How is it funny to watch two people attempt to fight over X miles? I mean, what are they going to do, start a war between their two countr-ohhh, you're right, that does sound fun!

[TimeWizard]

No, sorry, a kendo shinai is not a katana. It's not even a sword - it's a piece of bamboo. It's not even shaped particularly like a sword.

Now, if you said you had experience with kenjutsu (the art of swordsmanship) rather than kendo (the sport of swordsmanship) I may have taken you seriously.

Sa-wing and a miss. 1) A shinai is, in fact, shaped like a sword. It is the same length, has a crossguard, a similarly sized hilt, and a yellow string representing the cutting side. In what way is it not shaped like a sword? you mean it's not curved? Ok. It's not curved. which brings us to 2) Bokken are used in training and demonstration, but not sparring. Bokken are the exact same dimensions as a katana, and being made out of hard wood, are similarly weighted. Typically a handguard is placed over them and held in place by a rubber ring stopper. So yes, they do fill in the role of the katana quite nicely. 3) This is just pedantic. The difference between Kenjutsu and Kendo is trivial. And The sport of sword fighting? Is that supposed to be an insult? Kendoka split there time between practice, technique, and sparring. In no way does that trivialize any knowledge one gains about sword fighting.

I'm not going to launch into any ad hominems, but I find your posts to be increasingly accusatory and arrogant. Passive-Dismissive posts do not, in fact, make you correct, knowledgeable, or cool. They merely serve to highlight your ignorance or lack of will engage in a topic with constructive criticism. I recommend bringing some detailed knowledge or a helpful insight. I look forward to either.

Back on the original topic, for which I apologize for misleading. I am not opposed, mechanically, for the use of Dexterity on swords or melee weapons in general now that I have read the counter-arguments. From a game balance standpoint you do not lose anything, nor become to any degree overpowered. Acknowledging that we understand D&D to be an unrealistic but fun game approach to combat, I can agree with the proposed idea. My hot button is the assumption that katanas work like that in real life.

[Greenish]

I dunno why suggesting that fencing for sport and for staying alive are different would be offending or intended to trivialize either.

Bamboo sticks with yellow stripes(!) are serious business, of course, so it's understandable that the feelings grow hot.

[Yuki Akuma]

You use a piece of bamboo designed to be like a sword. You do not use an actual sword.

I am not belittling your choice of sport, and yes, you could probably kick my ass. But please don't say that fencing is the same as actual sword fighting, especially when you don't fence with real swords.

[Spiryt]

Discussion is becoming weirdly hostile, but Internet is serious business, I guess. :smallamused:

Anyway, I still don't know how all things mentioned under "Dexterity" in PHB :


hand-eye coordination, agility, reflexes, and balance

can have anything else than crucial matter in all kind of combat, sword wielding included.

[Thespianus]

Dumbest Off-Topic ever.

Each of you should go to your sensei, bow humbly and tell him that you're having an internet discussion about the merits of strength versus dexterity in the art of the sword.

If your sensei is worth his salt, he will have you do push ups and practice cuts against a stack of car tires until you've learned your lesson.

[Yuki Akuma]

Dumbest Off-Topic ever.

Each of you should go to your sensei, bow humbly and tell him that you're having an internet discussion about the merits of strength versus dexterity in the art of the sword.

If your sensei is worth his salt, he will have you do push ups and practice cuts against a stack of car tires until you've learned your lesson.

No, any sensei worth his salt will give his opinion on the matter. Then tell you to go do push-ups and practice cuts on car tires.

Sensei are teachers, remember.

[Thespianus]

No, any sensei worth his salt will give his opinion on the matter. Then tell you to go do push-ups and practice cuts on car tires.

Sensei are teachers, remember.

And what the exercise will teach you is that what matters is practice, not strength vs dexterity.

Some sensei will tell you this, some sensei will make you understand it.

[JonestheSpy]

I do feel compelled to say that I agree that kendo is not combat. Like fencing, it is a sport based on swordfighting, but there are all kinds of rules and restrictions that are not present in an actual fight. And the goals are different - in both fencing and kendo the goal is to land a hit on your opponent in one of the legal target areas, not hitting them with enough force to cause serious injury - a tap still wins you the point. Likewise, defense is very different because the most important thing is to hit your opponent first; yes, parrying plays a big role, but you do have the option of ignoring what would be a lethal or debilitating blow coming at you if you think your sword will land first. Bad strategy in real life.

That said, someone who practices the swordfighting-based sports is going to have a lot more ability in actual combat than someone who doesn't, and bamboo swords ARE a perfectly good practice weapon to learn swordfighting techniques, sporting or real combat. It's not like they handed out sharp steel sticks to brand new trainees, after all.

[Thespianus]

Likewise, defense is very different because the most important thing is to hit your opponent first; yes, parrying plays a big role, but you do have the option of ignoring what would be a lethal or debilitating blow coming at you if you think your sword will land first. Bad strategy in real life.
You'd probably be surprised at how many actual, life-or-death, duels ended with "aiuchi", mutual slayings, both in feudal Japan and in western duels.

[Greenish]

You'd probably be surprised at how many actual, life-or-death, duels ended with "aiuchi", mutual slayings, both in feudal Japan and in western duels.That actually enforces his point: it's a bad strategy in real life.

[Thespianus]

That actually enforces his point: it's a bad strategy in real life.
Rather it illuminates what people saw as important then, and how that perspective has shifted.

I'd say that getting into sword fights is a really bad strategy today. Back then, things were different.

[Fhaolan]

It is very difficult to use a sword from horseback two-handed.

As you say it is difficult, and relatively unusual, but it is not impossible or unheard of. There are several historical documents in India and China depicting two-handed weapon work on horseback.

Mind you, this is the same area that came up with double-ended spears and multi-bladed knives, so... :smallsmile:

[Calemyr]

I don't know what you're talking about. I say we make them all meet at high noon and fight to the death!!!

So a man on the board said everyone grab a sword
And it turned into a forum blitz!

[Optimator]

Oh, gawd.

GRACE = BAB not Dex!!

[Greenish]

GRACE = BAB not Dex!!Grace is +n to Ref saves from Swashbuckler, I seem to recall.

[Optimator]

srsly? I was referring to the common confusion of people thinking experts go around finessing everything, not the Swashbuckler. I guess it wasn't clear; I skipped the last page and Swashbucklers and their Grace ability may have come up.

[Kensen]

Compared to a katana, a shinai is very light and since you're not required cut through armor and bone in kendo, in free sparring (ji-geiko) and competitions (shiai), the techniques are very compact. Your arms and wrists are supposed to be relaxed except for the fraction of second when the shinai hits the opponent. That's when you "snap" your wrists. Indeed, the power and speed comes from your wrists. Little strength is required. Personally, I think a shinai is a highly finessable weapon. :smallbiggrin: Being big and strong does help in a tsubazeriai, though.

But as has been pointed out, a shinai is not a katana, and sparring with shinai is not real combat. The different properties (weight, shape, etc.) of the two weapons make it difficult to use some kendo waza with a katana as-is. So in my opinion (as a kendoka), kendo is a bit irrelevant here.

In iaido, the swings are much bigger. The point is to make the tip of the sword travel fast in a wide arc before hitting, so as to give it the kinetic energy required to cut through a head, forearm, chest, abdomen, or other vulnerable part of the body and cause instant death or massive bleeding, or at least buy you enough time to attack again and finish him off without getting your sword stuck in his ribcage or forehead.

While the techniques are somewhat different, or vastly different as some might say, many of the things that apply to kendo are just the same or similar in iaido.

In iaido, too, your arms should be relaxed. The only part of your upper limbs you need when initiating a two-handed cut is your left pinky finger. (If you've heard stories about yakuza members having to cut off their left pinky fingers as a punishment... :smallwink:) The moment the blade starts cutting the foe, you sort of squeeze the hilt with your hands. And finally, when the cut is finished, you adjust your grip so that the sword stops moving. Proper technique is of the essence. You need strength only if your technique is poor. That, in my opinion, is just what finesse is: controlling your weapon's center of balance and movement without resorting to strength.

But well, we're talking about D&D here. In my opinion, the katana should be a finessable weapon. Then again, I believe that most real-world melee weapons are more or less finessable if you're skilled enough. I guess it really depends on how "special" you consider the katana.

[TimeWizard]

@ Yuki Akuma: *offers handshake*

[Yuki Akuma]

*accepts handshake*

[Hendel]

Be careful TimeWizard, Akuma is an evil spirit so you can never be sure what you will get back after he shakes your hand!!

Actually, it is good to see people disagree with out going too far over board. I always have to remind my group that it is a game and when it stops being fun, then it is time to quit. So, good job TimeWizard and Yuki Akuma (but I will still hesitate to shake your hand).

[Grommen]

Sure. The question of whether it's reasonable or balanced is quite separate from whether it makes sense for katanas and not other swords to be treated this way based on the real-world weapons they're meant to model.

I see I was a bit unclear on that.

Game wise it's all good.

Real world physics. In the limited amount of time I've had with a Katana. I would say no. It is a big honken blade meant to be muscled. Rare in the fact that it can be used in one hand as well as two, but they are heavy (not nearly as heavy as one would think). They are meant for slashing and are weighted and shaped with that in mind. I can't see one trying to "fence" with it.

Well I have and it was a pretty funny "B" flick on TV...Late, late, late night TV mind you.

[Kensen]

Real world physics. In the limited amount of time I've had with a Katana. I would say no. It is a big honken blade meant to be muscled. Rare in the fact that it can be used in one hand as well as two, but they are heavy (not nearly as heavy as one would think). They are meant for slashing and are weighted and shaped with that in mind. I can't see one trying to "fence" with it.

In the limited amount of time I've practiced iaido (two and half years), I've learnt that "muscling" a katana will only result in slow chops (or slashes) as opposed to fast, fluid cuts you get with proper technique. Your sensei will shout "RELAX!" every time you try to make a cut with tense arms. There should be tension in only your abdominal muscles.

Also, to my experience, you never really use a katana one-handed. Emphasis on "really". In iaido, the opening cuts (nukitsuke) and thrusts are one-handed in the sense that only your right hand is on the hilt, but that doesn't mean that you don't use your left hand at all. Quite the contrary. With the left hand, you perform saya-biki (to put it simply, you grip the sheath and pull it backwards). This movement generates power needed for cutting in your opening cuts and makes them balanced.

In Niten Ichi Ryu (Musashi's school of swordmanship), the first technique you learn, Sassen, is in fact a one-handed thrust. But there, too, you use your left hand in a similar fashion. In Niten Ichi, saya are not used, so I don't know if it's an actual saya-biki. I haven't practiced the two-sword techniques, but if I've understood correctly, you use them "as one", i.e. whatever your right hand (holding the longer bokuto) is doing, your left hand is doing pretty much the same thing with the kodachi (as they call the shorter sword in Niten Ichi Ryu) albeit at a different angle or targeting a different body part.

[Thurbane]

...now I suddenly remember why katana topics were once banned at the WotC forums...too many fanboy vs anti-fanboy hater arguments. :smallamused:

[Kensen]

Thank gods this is not the WotC forums and we don't have that sort of problem here.

[Thurbane]

I agree that on the whole, this is a FAR more civilized and convivial forum than any incarnation of the WotC forums. :smallwink:

[Serpentine]

I could just call a rapier a katana and tell the DM that instead of a foil, I have more of a sabre with a blade on it like a katana.Minor, not terribly helpful, quibble: Rapiers aren't foils :smallconfused: A foil might be a type of rapier, don't know them well enough to say, but rapiers of the type you'd actually be using in D&D look like this:

http://www.thedaggersedge.com/images/RapierMedevil.jpg

rather than this:

http://www.lynchs.com/images/1590.jpg

[Greenish]

Minor, not terribly helpful, quibble: Rapiers aren't foils :smallconfused: A foil might be a type of rapier, don't know them well enough to say, but rapiers of the type you'd actually be using in D&D look like this:
<rapier picture>
rather than this:
<foil picture>I'll have to disagree. Rapiers you actually use in D&D look something like this:
http://www.2-clicks-swords.com/images/image/Dragon-fantasy-sword.jpg

Yay for silly fantasy swords.

[Yuki Akuma]

I'll have to disagree. Rapiers you actually use in D&D look something like this:
http://www.2-clicks-swords.com/images/image/Dragon-fantasy-sword.jpg

Yay for silly fantasy swords.

I uh... fail to see how that is any less functional than the one Serpentine posted.

[Spiryt]

I uh... fail to see how that is any less functional than the one Serpentine posted.

Seeing those cast dragon "adornments" on the guard it';s probably about 150$ stainless stuff that's not functional at all.

Although without details I can't find we can't be sure.

Still, most important thing is that even if someone made something like that functional, it won't be rapier in any way. :smallwink:

[Serpentine]

Hehee. Want! :smallbiggrin:

[Optimystik]

Thank gods this is not the WotC forums

FTFY :smallwink:

[Ossian]

Seeing those cast dragon "adornments" on the guard it';s probably about 150$ stainless stuff that's not functional at all.

Although without details I can't find we can't be sure.

Still, most important thing is that even if someone made something like that functional, it won't be rapier in any way. :smallwink:


EDIT: sorry, it came out as a wall of text, I am verbose....


I missed the whole discussion but I just wanted to add a few words to what Spiryt said some 3 pages ago.

You mentioned the ability to attack in relation to the fluidity, speed of the movement, etc... I could not agree more on that but I believe that in D&D combat is not necessarily "STR" based. All the factors you mentioned are IMO in the BAB. A fighter will improve speed, initiative, determination, energy, coordination and balance as he trains and applies in combat his techniques. His experience will increase, his tricks will become more diverse, his cold blood will help him focus on what needs to be done: parry, block, dodge, duck, slash, thrust, hack, smash through, kick or sweep etc...

After that, it is a medievalish world we are talking here (or at least, in the intentions and most common applications of the rules) so a higher strength could only be beneficial to combat.

In short, while the real difference should come from technique, talent and experience (BAB and feats) a person with above average strength can definitely pack additional punch to his blows (making them felt through the plating without necessarily cutting through the metal). D&D offers us another option though. You might train and specialize in a style ( = feat slot) that rewards the use of above average dexterity over above average strength. Everyone can see it as they like, a-la Errol Flynn, if that is fun for you, or a-la Samurai (which is fun for me).

How one will physically describe combat is really the DM or the PCs call. If they have combat training, so much the better. I do not have any katana (or Jedi, or Tallheuser or whatever) training, but I like my "Finessed" weapons to be agile and light (a katana will do, and even a longsword, and a rapier, but not an actual bastard sword or a 2-hander), based on lots of footwork, feints and sudden strikes, and daring maneuvers to put yourself in a good position to strike (after all. WFS does improve you attack, and not your defense).

The BAB eventually will tip the scale, and draw the line with the agile but inexperienced warrior, and the perhaps not so strong and not so quick but battle hardened marshal, who will just butcher the former effortlessly.

I have in mind the Rob Roy fight between Rob and Cunningham, just to give you a sense of what I am talking about, though I have no clue as to the accuracy/verisimilitude of said fight scene.

O.

[Spiryt]

Final scene of Rob Roy is very OK in accuracy/verisimilitude part to best of my knowledge.

Anyway, If I get your point - the problem is that 3.5 makes you choose.

There's absolutely no reason to choose
another option though. You might train and specialize in a style ( = feat slot) that rewards the use of above average dexterity over above average strength.

One should be able to use dexterity as much as strength. It doesn't matter if it's great sword of halberd. You can do


based on lots of footwork, feints and sudden strikes, and daring maneuvers to put yourself in a good position to strike with all of that if you know how.

Two handed weapons would be actually even more suitable for it - they are longer, and have longer grip, and double hold offers better control, so better accuracy and "finesse".

Seeing this florysh (http://www.thearma.org/Videos/mov37.mpg) - it's just for show, not something "practical", but if it's not " a-la Errol Flynn" and daring manuevers, I don't know what is.

Yes, it can all come from "BaB" but what is "Dexterity" in D&D is here, there's no other way.

Finally, the very world "finesse" is fail, bigger than the feat itself - according to dictionaires, it means "great Refinement, subtlety, precision, mastery in execution of something" - and so on, all of which could be called simply "BaB and feats" in D&D.

And to save the thread a bit: :smallwink:

http://www.dynastyforge.com/components/com_virtuemart/shop_image/product/20d58e5bb7d0d7c620bb47527d562685.jpg
http://www.dynastyforge.com/components/com_virtuemart/shop_image/product/d4eb54d6643c6f34d75089efee44b1b5.jpg


Dynasty forge expensive goodness it seems.

[Matthew]

Yes, it can all come from "BAB" but what is "Dexterity" in D&D is here, there's no other way.

Well, strength and dexterity both contribute to combat effectiveness in D&D in any case, one giving a bonus to attack rolls and the other a bonus to defence. I think what tends to throw people is that dexterity contributes to the attack roll with ranged weapons, reinforcing the idea that dexterity controls precision and strength is merely brute force. At the end of the day, though, it is just a game, not a model of reality. Methods of using dexterity instead of strength to contribute to the attack bonus are really more about the game than they are about describing reality, a rationale could be assembled for having just about any attribute fulfil that role.

[Spiryt]

Hard to argue here, and thus:

http://swordforum.com/summer99/gunto.jpg

[Hendel]

Minor, not terribly helpful, quibble: Rapiers aren't foils :smallconfused: A foil might be a type of rapier, don't know them well enough to say, but rapiers of the type you'd actually be using in D&D look like this:

http://www.thedaggersedge.com/images/RapierMedevil.jpg

rather than this:

http://www.lynchs.com/images/1590.jpg

I know, shame on me and heaven knows that I didn't want this tangent, but I was just lumping the modern foil, epee, and sabre into the rapier-style family. Once more, like the katana, not a perfect comparison but I was still talking about a game and rather than have thousands of different weapons, I am looking to keep it at the hundreds and find rough equivalents for use in the game of D&D.

[Kaiyanwang]

Seeing this florysh (http://www.thearma.org/Videos/mov37.mpg) - it's just for show, not something "practical", but if it's not " a-la Errol Flynn" and daring manuevers, I don't know what is.


I'd would add a thing: that person seems to full attack and move MORE that 5 feet. Am I wrong?

Maybe these things should be shown to some designer.. :smallwink:

[Ossian]

Hmmm....full attack, the ability to (potentially) hit and kill more than one (armed and combat trained) opponent in melee in 6 seconds or to deal significant damage to one opponent more than once in the same amount of time.

No, I guess he is just doing a very nice flourish. Multiple attacks in D&D should be put back in perspective. If you can do that much damage in so little time you ARE a force to be reckoned with, by our standards at least.

I seriously doubt that any of our renaissance fencing masters could go toe-to-toe with a level 6 full BAB character.

O.

[Kaiyanwang]

Hmmm....full attack, the ability to (potentially) hit and kill more than one (armed and combat trained) opponent in melee in 6 seconds or to deal significant damage to one opponent more than once in the same amount of time.

No, I guess he is just doing a very nice flourish. Multiple attacks in D&D should be put back in perspective. If you can do that much damage in so little time you ARE a force to be reckoned with, by our standards at least.

I seriously doubt that any of our renaissance fencing masters could go toe-to-toe with a level 6 full BAB character.

O.

I see your point: you mean that in game terms, that guy simply moved (not full speed) and attacked, or even did an intimidate attampt (maybe like Dazzling Display in pathfinder).

[Ossian]

Something like that. I mean, you can move up to X feet/meters and attack, or full attack and move the proverbial 5' / 1,5meter, or move 2x or 4x or whatever x feet/meters and not attack. Personally, when PCs are engaged in fierce melee combat, they can't expect to finish the fight in the same square where they started it, save for very specific (and easy to interpret) sets of rolls. Like a killing spree a-la-Leonidas in 300 or something. This is regardless of what they declare to me as GM in the way of move/attack actions.

Melee is a mess, a bloody messy mess. If you don't mess things up a little bit it ends up being a "Diablo" session (standing character, click on monster, repeat until dead) rather than a fantasy role-play, in itself an experience light-years away from reality.

If we were to stat what the flourish is, well, it could be anything, because we have to mentally portray (like in a kata) what is happening to the targets. He might have mowed down 6 people passing by him, with Attacks of Opportunity+combat reflex, intimidated a 7th and butchered an 8th.

Or he could have moved 5 meters, covering all angles with his sword and pressing for the offense, attacked (once) then retreated of the same amount of meters/feet (Spring attack).

Or just flourished, attacked, and then be pressed backwards by 5 new enemies. It's really up to our imagination.

[true_shinken]

Cool, I hadn't thought of a Sun Blade Katana!! Looks and feels like a katana, but is useable like a short sword (or maybe wakizashi in this case).

Thanks! Anything else?

Iaijutsu Master gets finesse with katanas.

[Gryndle]

No. Stop. No.

katanas are not finesse weapons. Katanas are not finesse weapons. THEY ARE NOT FINESSE WEAPONS! Anime and movies have so clouded they mass of minds on the internet with over the top swordsmanship. NOT FINESSE.

Kendo. Kendo we know. Kendo is not dexterous. Kendo is not about tricky flourishes or flexibly slipping around an opponent's sword. Kendo is about cleaving. Kendo is about slicing through wrists with overhead chops. Kendo is about tricking your enemy mentally. Kendo is about using a three foot curved piece of metal to slash your opponent's forehead, wrist, ribs, or throat. Not Dexterity. Skill != dexterity. Kendo masters are not Drizzt'ing people up.

The nine basic techniques involve slash, block and slash, slap and slash, slash some more, slash before other people, and step back and slash. Not one involves anything more dexterous than stepping back and to the side.

Musashi, Kenshin, Everybody Else, --- No!

Get this idea out of your heads! THANK YOU!

GOODNIGHT!

Well, I think you have summed up kendo nicely.

You've also tried to pigeon hole a versatile weapon that is claimed by many different martial arts (as oppossed to simplistic sport you mention).

The forms of kenjutsu and iado that I studied, I definately believe should fall under Weapon Finesse.

Alot of my favored counters involve positioning of feet, hands and blade so that the oppoenent will run his own arms down the cutting edge of my blade during his attack, or impale himself on the point of my blade when he advances.

How is that NOT finesse?

No I do not beleive the katana can cut a tank in half. It is just a sword. A sword that can be used in very many different ways, and is only as good as its wielder.

[Xuc Xac]

Alot of my favored counters involve positioning of feet, hands and blade so that the oppoenent will run his own arms down the cutting edge of my blade during his attack, or impale himself on the point of my blade when he advances.

How is that NOT finesse?


That's called "setting to receive a charge". I think spears and certain polearms get a bonus to it. Not katanas though.

[Dienekes]

(a katana will do, and even a longsword, and a rapier, but not an actual bastard sword or a 2-hander), based on lots of footwork, feints and sudden strikes, and daring maneuvers to put yourself in a good position to strike (after all. WFS does improve you attack, and not your defense).

Just a bit of a nitpick, that has some relevance. A katana is maybe half a pound lighter than a bastard sword, and heavier than an arming sword (what a longsword is probably parallel to).

What little we know of a 2-hander in combat comes from the Goliath fetchtbuch which has it using roughly the same style of maneuvers as said bastard sword.

Your description of having attacks being based off of a lot of footwork, feints, ect. describes all sword combat as far as I'm aware. Technically speaking, as far as sword maneuvers go most anything that can be done with a katana can be done with a bastard sword and vice verse, at the same speed and style. A lot of the techniques they learn are indistinguishable from each other.

While I'm not going to tell you how to run your game, for realisms sake (a loaded term in RPGs if ever there was one) most all melee swords could be seen as finesse weapons. Even the big 2-handers, unless you don't think someone can swing a mere seven pounds fast.

[Spiryt]

Just a bit of a nitpick, that has some relevance. A katana is maybe half a pound lighter than a bastard sword, and heavier than an arming sword (what a longsword is probably parallel to).


Actually, while katanas weight were pretty uniform, and moreover pretty uniform among many centuries, about 1200 -1350 g in weight, (at least according to what I've read from very interested people) - there cannot be talk about something like this with European swords.

There were plenty longswords about 1200 g in weight, or even lighter (even more so with true "bastards"), and plenty of arming sword about 1350 g or even heavier.

And those are not some "exceptions" but just different swords.

[Dienekes]

Interesting, you mind giving some sources?

Not that I doubt you, just that my books I have on the subject give rough measurements of:
arming sword= 2-3 lb
katana= 3-3.5 lb
bastard sword= 3.5-4 lb
zweihander= 6-8 lb

With quite a lot of variability between all swords involved, including a 1.5 lb arming sword, and a 3 lb bastard sword given. And of course the ceremonial zweihanders of 15 lb.

[Spiryt]

Dunno If I can find too much now, It's pretty late and I don't have any books, but:

Exact reconstruction of "arming sword" much heavier than 3 pounds (http://www.albion-swords.com/swords/johnsson/sword-museum-tritonia.htm)

Same, but Longsword lighter than 3.5 pounds (http://www.albion-swords.com/swords/johnsson/sword-museum-brescia.htm)

A bit ighter, though long longsword (http://www.zornhau.de/source/schwertexkursion/ZEF-2.pdf)

Some longsword heavier than 4.5 pounds (http://www.thearma.org/spotlight/swiss-swords.html)

XVIII.7 example here is visibly under 3 pounds, sword that can be probablt called "true bastard" (heh) (http://www.myarmoury.com/feature_spotxviii.html)

Something more possibly tomorrow.

EDIT: And in case of possible misunderstanding, of course, "rough measurements" like that are generally OK, though "exceptions" aren't really very rare or wierd.

And true bastard swords would be generally lighter than 3.5 -4. This range actually fits longswords more.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

I've also had issues with the all strength vs all dexterity issues of D&D combat and the idea that you need to spend significant resources to use the style that should come naturally to them. I'm sure that if two people; one with an above average strengh and one with an above average dexterity started martial arts classes together that the first time they sparred the dextrous (sp?) one would throw punches that reflected their superior speed and agility. Did they gain a level in fighter and therefore gain the weapon finesse feat from 6-10 hours of training? Otherwise I would propose allowing dex to hit with finessable weapons and perhaps a feat to finesse other weapons.

I think a similar philosophy could be applied to power attack though this is mostly based on my own experience with unarmed combat. Though I suppose you could also just count certain strikes that you put your full weight behind; like roundhouse kicks, haymakers, superman punches and mounted punches count as two handed weapons giving extra damage to anyone with a decent strength.

I'd say the same for Expertise, but fighting defensively is already in the system as an inferior manuever for the untrained.

Unlike some I can get behind strengh based attack rolls. I'd always found it pretty questionable having often been danced around by lighter faster fighters especially in point based sparring (of course I know that point sparring isn't combat and that I could runover many of these opponents in a fight but I alwaysattributed that to higher hp/damage/better grappling). Then I participated in some amateur bauffer tournaments and found that weilding a two-handed weapon I could beat alot of people by just swinging so hard I broke through their guard and hit them, This almost never resulted in double hits often they actually hit themselves with their weapon as I hit them.

[Maerok]

Has anyone tried to make a sword out of a minor wall of force?

[Xuc Xac]

Has anyone tried to make a sword out of a minor wall of force?

Mordenkainen did.

[Maerok]

Well he is a wizard after all.