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Narmy
2010-06-06, 04:49 PM
What do you think of this masterwork system, is it balanced, could it be improved, would you use it?

Beyond Masterwork
To create a high masterwork item, you create a high masterwork component as if it were a separate item in addition to the standard item. The high masterwork component has its own price (1500 gp for a weapon or 1000 gp for a suit of armor or a shield) and a Craft DC of 25. Once both the standard component and the high masterwork component are completed, the high masterwork item is finished. Note: The cost you pay for the high masterwork component is one-third of the given amount, just as it is for the cost in raw materials.

To create a grand masterwork item, you create a grand masterwork component as if it were a separate item in addition to the standard item. The grand masterwork component has its own price (6000 gp for a weapon or 3000 gp for a suit of armor or a shield) and a Craft DC of 30. Once both the standard component and the grand masterwork component are completed, the grand masterwork item is finished. Note: The cost you pay for the grand masterwork component is one-third of the given amount, just as it is for the cost in raw materials.

To create an unequaled masterwork item, you create an unequaled masterwork component as if it were a separate item in addition to the standard item. The unequaled masterwork component has its own price (14,000 gp for a weapon or 7000 gp for a suit of armor or a shield) and a Craft DC of 35. Once both the standard component and the unequaled masterwork component are completed, the unequaled masterwork item is finished. Note: The cost you pay for the unequaled masterwork component is one-third of the given amount, just as it is for the cost in raw materials.

Weapons
Masterwork - The wielder gains a +1 enhancement bonus to attack rolls. The cost of the weapon is increased by 300 gp.

High Masterwork - The wielder gains a +1 enhancement bonus to attack rolls and damage rolls. The weapon's hardness and hit points are increased by 1. The cost of the weapon is increased by 1500 gp.

Grand Masterwork - The wielder gains a +2 enhancement bonus to attack rolls and damage rolls. The weapon's hardness and hit points are increased by 2. The cost of the weapon is increased by 6000 gp.

Unequaled Masterwork - The wielder gains a +3 enhancement bonus to attack rolls and damage rolls. The weapon's hardness and hit points are increased by 3. The cost of the weapon is increased by 14,000 gp.

Armor and Shields
Masterwork - The armor check penalty of the armor or shield is reduced by 1. The cost of the armor or shield is increased by 150 gp.

High Masterwork - The armor check penalty of the armor or shield is reduced by 1. The armor or shield gains a +1 enhancement bonus to AC. Shields gain +1 to their hardness and gain +5 hit points. The cost of the armor or shield is increased by 1000 gp.

Grand Masterwork - The armor check penalty of the armor or shield is reduced by 2. The armor or shield gains a +1 enhancement bonus to AC. Shields gain +2 to their hardness and gain +10 hit points. The cost of the armor or shield is increased by 3000 gp.

Unequaled Masterwork - The armor check penalty of the armor or shield is reduced by 2. The armor or shield gains a +2 enhancement bonus to AC. Shields gain +3 to their hardness and gain +15 hit points. The cost of the armor or shield is increased by 7000 gp.

EdroGrimshell
2010-06-06, 05:18 PM
They already have the system with the Master class in Dragonlance's War of the Lance. It's under the craftsman knacks.

Narmy
2010-06-06, 06:29 PM
I didn't ask that >< I found this system on an OGL site. I desire to know if it's balanced. Not where it may be found or a relative there of.

BLiZme.2
2010-06-09, 03:29 AM
Well it kind of makes magic al pluses of less than +4 more or less obsolete (cost and all) plus I synergisms well with the +1 magical enchantment +9 enchantment in abilities trick(you know like flaming burst) which is already abusive and if you do this wit a bow HO boy +3 MWK from MWK bow +9(abilities) from the arowe +9(abilities) from the bow’s magic wit a wasted +1 enchantment on the arrow and the bow for a total effective plus of 22

Ashtagon
2010-06-09, 04:18 AM
Can you make two unequalled masterwork items? Would they grant the same bonus?

Yar
2010-06-09, 10:32 AM
Well costs one the weapons are pretty close to the costs of a similarly enchanted magical item so it seems balanced to me.

BLiZme.2
2010-06-10, 02:51 AM
Yar you are wrong here is why.

1 all of the high masterwork properties are at least roughly equivalent to a magical version with the same base properties (in and of itself not much of an issue).
2 all but the high MWK armor cost LESS than there equivalent magical item.(high MWK armor costs the same )
3 the arrow trick I mentioned earlier. To a lesser extent it can be used on other weapons and to that same degree (as melee weapons) applies to armor. (Thus with planning they can be made to stack with magic armor and weapons)
4 the armor versions makes no proficiency no drawback armor easier to make this is already an issue.
5 these properties are not lost in an AMF nor can they be dispelled (in and of itself not much of an issue).
6 they can all be constructed at a very low level for much less money than a magic item (1/3 the cost as opposed to ½) and have no XP cost.
only having max in that skill and max in the appropriate ability (INT) you can take 10 and get a 25 at level 8 thud the first tier is trivial by LV 8 and the Max at LV 18) and you can do it much earlier using skill focus a MWK tool set INT boosting magic(fox’s cunning could work in theory) not to mention if you made an item to give you a competence boost on craft checks (a + 5 should cost about 2,500 to buy and a +10 is 10,000 and a +15 costs 22,500) plus you can heighten a bard to use inspire competence... a dc 35 is very doable at level 7 with taking 10 +4 from 18 INT 10 skill points 3 from skill focus take 10 +2 MWK tool +4 INT mod +4 skill from lv1 + 6 skill points from levels 2-7 +1 INT boost magic +3 from feat +5 from skill boost magic)
7 no feats are required to make them.
8 no xp cost is required (though this is dumb for magic items).
9 They increase the hp of shields far more than magic dose
10 they are weaker only in that 1 armor has a lower hardness and HP (not a real issue as you can not attack worn armor {it is the rules it dose not make sense but it is the rules:smallconfused:}) and 2 the weapons do not pierce magical DR but a simple +1 enchantment on a Grand or Unequaled MWK solves that issue and dose not make the item cost more then its medical equivalent plus it throws an hp and a hardness in for “free”
11 the hardness and Hp boost stakes with that of magical enchantment (admittedly this is minor and in itself excusable)
12 also the high masterworks count as masterwork for qualifying to be enchanted and thus all are the normal cost of a masterwork item less than a normal item but I will ignore this in the oncoming run down (in and of itself not much of an issue).


Run down of relative costs and differences between magic and high master work


Weapons

Masterwork 300 gp. required for magic item includes in official cost I will ignore this even though this makes the greeter MWK's all even better (by making them 300 gp closer to the magical equivalent).

High Masterwork cost 1500 gp. ~a +1 magic weapon 2000 gp
differences no Magical DR piercing and can not be dispelled or AMFed.
balance if they cost the same (to make) this [I]might be ok... maybe (as they can not be made to stack in anything but hardness and HP

Grand Masterwork - 6000 gp. ~a +2 magic weapon 8000 gp
differences see above.
note for another 2000 gp you could give it one more HP and hardness and make it pierce magical damage reduction
(also you could in theory use this to make effectively a +2 weapon with 9 +s of properties thus this is less balance than High Masterwork)

[B]Unequaled Masterwork 14,000 gp. ~a +3 magic weapon 18000 gp
differences see above.
note for another 2000 gp you could give it one more HP and hardness and make it pierce magical damage reduction
(also you could in theory use this to make effectively a +3 weapon with 9 +s of properties thus this is less balance than grand Masterwork)


[B]Armor and Shields

Masterwork - 150 gp. required for magic item includes in overall cost I will ignore this even though this makes the greeter MWK's all even better (by making them 150 gp closer to the magical equivalent).

High Masterwork - 1000 gp. > a +1 shield or armor 1000 gp
differences the magic armor has 1 more hardness and one more hp than the MWK and the magic shield has 4 less hp neither MWK can be dispelled or AMFed.
balance if they cost the same (to make) this might be ok... maybe (as they can not be made to stack in anything but hardness and HP)

Grand Masterwork - 3000 gp. ~ a +1 shield or armor with a +1 properties (if you assume reducing the armor check penalty is equivalent to a +1 enchantment {I think some obscure [wizards of the coast] enchantment dose just that}) 4000 gp
Differences the magic armor has 2 more hardness and two more hp than the MWK and the magic shield has 8 less hp niter MWK can be dispelled or AMFed
(also you could in they use this to make effectively a +1 shield or armor with 10 +s of properties thus this is less balance than high Masterwork)

[B]Unequaled Masterwork - 7000 gp. ~a +2 shield or armor with a +1 properties (with the above assumption) 9000 gp
differences the magic armor has 3 more hardness and three more hp than the MWK and the magic shield has 12 less hp niter MWK can be dispelled or AMFed.
(also you could in theory use this to make effectively a +2 shield or armor with 10 +s of properties [basically +12] thus this is less balance than high Masterwork).

Narmy
2010-06-10, 03:58 AM
They do NOT stack with magical enhancement bonuses.

Thus your +9 Arrow from what I see may not exist.

A +3 Unequaled Masterwork enchanted with a +1 Magical Enhancement bonus counts as ONE or THE OTHER. It may not count as both. This is a DM decision, in my games I'd probably treat them as magical weapons at +1, however, if it benefited the game, I may make them count as non-magical +3 weapons.

It WOULD NOT count as a +4 weapon. Same goes for armors and shields.

Just house-rule armor sundering and the like, it's not hard.
I don't care about exp costs. These don't have to be common place, they can be legendary methods of crafting.
I don't care if it's achievable at lvl 7, GOOD. It should be. These are not meant for high tier play, they are meant for low and mid tier.


Notice that I do NOT use the word tier to refer to classes but rather categories of levels.

Use them for low magic settings or e6 or whatever.

It's supposed to cost less, it's not as strong nor does it give the benefits of magic. If you wanted you could increase the cost, if you want you can add requirements in their construction above the increased cost and DC, such as proficiency or feat costs.


The way you speak annoys me, I'm guessing English is not your first language. So I'll wave that.

According to my core rulebook, they do not increase the Hardness or Hitpoints of the items more than magic, they increase it by HALF of what magic increases it.

lesser_minion
2010-06-10, 06:13 AM
Historically, it's been possible to make nonmagical enchanted equipment - adamantine had that effect in 3.0.

I don't think it's unbalananced or contrary to the intent of the designers to allow full-fledged natural enhancement bonuses, and those will be cheaper than the equivalent magic weapons anyway, because the natural enhancement bonus doesn't get added into the price-equivalent enhancement bonus.

BLiZme.2
2010-06-12, 12:05 AM
1. English IS my first language!:smallmad: Just because I speak in a manner that is unusual dose not mean I am inexperienced or incompetent. (If it was the probable errors {i.e. misspelled words} I may have made I blame my horrible spelling and apologize. I am Dyslexic).

2. you are correct the +s do not stack they overlap, but all of the abilities do apply, so you have an effectively +19 shot, if you were to combine them so I could have ,in core, a +5, speed(+3), holy(+2) long bow (a +10 weapon) firing +1 brilliant energy(+4), flaming(+1), shocking burst(+2),axiomatic(+2) arrows (+10 ammo). Leading to a to an arrow in flight that is +5 on to hit and damage with ALL of the following properties speed, holy, brilliant energy, flaming, shocking burst, and axiomatic. A+19 attack Q.E.D. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q.E.D.)
(by the core the enchantments on the arrow and on the bow overlap but abilities overlap such that they do not make each otter irrelevant between ammo and weapon. From what I here many people house rule this in various ways {but that’s not core this I ignore})

3. on an Unequaled Masterwork enchanted with a +1 Magical Enhancement as wrote dose count as both at the same time BUT they overlap not stack as both bonuses are enchantment and named bonuses (except doge {and some circumstance bonuses }) do not stack. BUT the +1 Magical Enhancement allows you to pierce DR X MAGIC just like a regular +1 magical weapon but it would grant the to hit and damage of +3 ( from the Unequaled Masterwork) and have 1 more hp and hardness than a +3 weapon

As I have just laid out in this and my previous point the fact that enchantment bonus +s overlap but abilities +s stack means that I CAN do the arrow trick with these for example I have an Unequaled MWK long sword with a +1 Magical Enhancement and the following properties vorpal(+5) and dancing (+4)that mean I have a weapon that has +9 in properties and +3 to hit and damage enhancement effectively a +12 weapon

4. The armor sundering is a rule oddity that is relevant to the balance of these grater MWKs Vis-à-Vis armor so it is pertinent it has always confused me but my point stands as written more hp and hardness on armor is an irrelevant improvement thus removing it dose not markedly affect the potency of these masterworks relative to magic (note you can sunder shields only worn armor is immune by raw) disregarding a point of balance just because you can house rule it away is not good policy if you want to judge the interactions of house rules ask that question otherwise you balance using official material only otherwise we have no basis for comparison.

5. how can they be legendary without some mechanism trapping them in legend? If an NPC using the NPC equipment budget can do it a LV 7ish then how do you explain most magic items not using the above exploits? Any wizard would see the benefits and use them just like your PCs are likely to if you don’t add some sort of cost or obscure feet limiter if all they need is skill points you can bet that all use it and some will likely abuse it

6. They allow you to get far better gear far cheaper than the game is balanced for at your level BAD and your meaning of tier was obvious without the note.

7. in a low magic setting most of these complaints do disappear (because of no “stacking” exploit and lack of the skill boost magic allowing early access) but that is only because you are simulating magic with MWK all you have done is changed the fluff in that case for nearly identical crunch.

8.

It's supposed to cost less, it's not as strong nor does it give the benefits of magic. If you wanted you could increase the cost, if you want you can add requirements in their construction above the increased cost and DC, such as proficiency or feat costs.
It is as strong (see my earlier post) it gives the same benefits (for armor they are functionally better and on shields different but IMO comparable).
You asked if they were balanced part of balance is cost these are far to good for there cost if they cost more in terms of money and or feat and or skill points than they would be fine but as wrote hey ate to good especially because of the overlap trick I outlined 3 times now.

9. DMG PG 217 heading 3 :smalleek: for shields you are right on the hp hardness issue and as wrote magic armor dose gain no hp or hardness, but Page 222 contradicts this and says weapons and shields gain 1 hp and hardness for each + I assume they are referring to shields enchanted as weapons not as shields that was my error but it dose mean that weapons are still just as durable ether by magic or by MWK up to the point MWK can not do any better
In other words weapons and armor are the SAME and shields are HALF

Pleas compare all I am trying to say is that they are way to cheep especially because of the way they can overlap I admit this is a lesser problem for armor and shields but it still is a problem.

Susano-wo
2010-06-16, 08:26 PM
It seams like this would be an exploit for the range of levels where a plus +3weapon is good (which is fairly mid range, right? I've never had a +3 :smallredface:...most of the campaigns I'm in end early ; ;), but once you compare it to+4 or greater its no good. You have to make up the exptra cash to get the magic enhancement up to +4, and the money spent in the UMW weap is now wasted.

Also, note that a UMW/+1 weapon is only 16000 compared to 18000. THat's 2k cheaper for a slight benefit. Also, note that it would seem that you have to make a weap UMW in the first place--you can't continue to modify it liek a magic weapon.

Seems pretty good to me--I was thinking of using a very similar system (same costs as Magic, and magic simply starts after the 3rd tier) to allow grades of weapons without throwing lightsabers at them ^ ^