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View Full Version : The Eidolon Binder (3.5 Base Class, PEACH)



Raiki
2010-06-06, 05:50 PM
6/25 updates and changes are in BLUE.
6/24 updates and changes are in RED.

The Eidolon Binder
Oh, you need to fry a dozen orcs? Maybe the devil Azakroth could help with that. Need a map of the 13th level of the abyss? G'rakl the demon used to live there! Need to work your way through the red tape of the Church of Heironeous? Who better than the Archangel Tirael?
-Antathion, Eidolon Binder extraordinaire.

The Eidolon Binder is a man of diverse talents; By calling forth and entering into agreements with beings from other realms, he gains great power. When an eidolon binder finds himself in need, he reaches out with his will to find a creature capable of helping him, and in exchange for furthering that creature's goals, binds it into an item he carries. While carrying said item, the eidolon binder personally benefits from the eidolon's energies. However, in moments of great need, he may summon forth the entity itself to join him in the material realm.

Party Role: The Eidolon Binder can fill many roles within the party, depending on what eidolons they currently have bound, and whether said eidolons reside within their receptacles or aid the binder directly. A binder who keeps most of his eidolons in his weapons and armor could easily stand beside the party Fighter or Barbarian. On the other hand, a binder who's eidolons all stand beside him, would be a much more fragile creature, more akin to a rogue or cleric.

Races: Humans make particularly good Eidolon Binders, matching their natural versatility to that of the Eidolons they summon. Dwarves, with their natural tendencies towards lawful contracts and their innate fortitude lend themselves well to the class as well. Halflings and Gnomes, usually written off as unimportant due to their short stature, can more than surprise when they summon the colossal power of many of their Eidolons.

Alignment: Although many would assume that the Eidolon Binder's particular abilities would lead him down the path of domination and oppression favored by many summoners, they tend to wards no particular alignment. Most bound spirits travel with the Eidolon Binder of their own free will, and seem to the Binder more like traveling companions than servants.

Game Rule Information

Abilities: Wisdom is the cornerstone of any successful Eidolon Binder; Without the knowledge of self and force of will a high Wisdom score entails, an Eidolon Binder will find it very hard to get off the ground. A high Charisma score aids your rebuke ability. And high Strength and Constitution scores lend the Eidolon Binder a greater presence on the battlefield, synergizing well with his armor and weapon proficiencies.

Starting Age: as Cleric
Starting Gold: 2d4 x 10 (50gp)

Hit Die: d8
Skill Points: 4 + Int (x4 at 1st level)
Class Skills: Bluff(Cha), Craft(Int), Decipher Script(Int), Diplomacy(Cha), Disguise(Cha), Forgery(Int), Gather Information(Cha), Intimidate(Cha), Knowledge(Arcana, The Planes, Nature)(Int), Listen(Wis), Profession(Wis), Spellcraft(Int), Spot(Wis), Use Magic Device(Cha).

{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Binding Points|Special

1st|
+0|
+2|
+0|
+2|20|Bind Eidolon, Emergency Summon

2nd|
+1|
+3|
+0|
+3|40|

3rd|
+2|
+3|
+1|
+3|60|

4th|
+3|
+4|
+1|
+4|80|Bonus Bind Feat

5th|
+3|
+4|
+1|
+4|100|Rebuke Summoned Creature

6th|
+4|
+5|
+2|
+5|120|

7th|
+5|
+5|
+2|
+5|140|

8th|
+6/+1|
+6|
+2|
+6|160|Bonus Bind Feat

9th|
+6/+1|
+6|
+3|
+6|180|

10th|
+7/+2|
+7|
+3|
+7|200|

11th|
+8/+3|
+7|
+3|
+7|220|

12th|
+9/+4|
+8|
+4|
+8|240|Bonus Bind Feat

13th|
+9/+4|
+8|
+4|
+8|260|

14th|
+10/+5|
+9|
+4|
+9|280|

15th|
+11/+6/+1|
+9|
+5|
+9|300|

16th|
+12/+7/+2|
+10|
+5|
+10|320|Bonus Bind Feat

17th|
+12/+7/+2|
+10|
+5|
+10|340|

18th|
+13/+8/+3|
+11|
+6|
+11|360|

19th|
+14/+9/+4|
+11|
+6|
+11| 380|

20th|
+15/+10/+5|
+12|
+6|
+12|400|Bonus Bind Feat[/table]


Level|Bonus Bind Points

1-5|
5 x Wis Mod

6-10|
10 x Wis Mod

11-15|
15 x Wis Mod

16-20|
20 x Wis Mod
Non-permanant or semi-permanant bonuses to wisdom (such as those granted by spells or magical items) do not grant any additional bind points. Should the Eidolon Binder's bind points ever drop below the amount necessary to bind all of their eidolons, they become unable to summon forth any eidolon with a point total greater than (EBL + Current Wisdom Modifier) x2.5 (However, all item bonuses granted by bound eidolons remain intact). Also, for every point of wisdom modifier the character loses, he gains a -1 penalty on all attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks and ability checks.


Class Features:

Weapon and Armour Proficiency: Eidolon Binders are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, all types of armor (Light, Medium, and Heavy) and with Shields (except tower shields).

Bind Eidolon (Su): An eidolon binder receives a pool of points with which to create his own personalized eidolons and bind them to his service (this will be covered more in depth below under the Eidolon Creation heading). They receive points based on the chart above, with a number of bonus points based on their level and wisdom modifier. When an eidolon is created, it is also bound into a specially prepared item, granting it special properties. Any eidolon may be summoned and bound into an item by enacting a ritual taking 8 hours, and consuming 50gp per EBL. This price must be paid each time a binding ceremony is performed. In order to gain the benefits of an item, or to summon the eidolon, the eidolon binder must have the item on his person. At any given level, no one eidolon may be worth more than 50% of the eidolon binder's total points. Summoning forth an eidolon is a full round action that provokes an attack of opportunity, and the eidolon appears adjacent to the Binder at the beginning of her next turn. Recalling an eidolon into an item is a free action that may be done from any distance, though the eidolon and the binder must currently by on the same plane.

On Eidolon Death: An eidolon, much like most outsiders, has a singular nature. Their body and spirit are inextricably linked and, upon death, both are destroyed. Thus, an eidolon may not be raised by any means other than the direct intervention of a deity.

Emergency Summon (Su): In times of dire need, the eidolon binder may call upon a more powerful eidolon than he usually has access to. Doing this is strenuous, causing 1 point of wisdom damage per 30 points of the eidolon. At first level, and at every subsequent level, the eidolon binder creates one eidolon that may be summoned this way. The eidolon may be worth any amount of points up to 30 per EBL. For example, at 1st level, Antathion has created an eidolon worth 30 points as his emergency summon. At 2nd level, he creates a new eidolon with a point total of 60. At any time, he may summon either one of these into existence, taking 1 or 2 points of temporary wisdom damage respectively. This ability may not be used if you are somehow immune to wisdom damage, and the damage it causes may not be healed by any means other than natural rest.
When an Eidolon Binder has any ammount of wisdom damage from the use of this ability, she may not summon any of her Emergency Summons, nor may she summon forth any eidolon with a point total greater than (EBL+Current Wisdom Modifier)x2.5. Emergency Summon is a full round action that provokes an attack of opportunity. When summoned, an emergency summon remains on the material plane for 3 rounds per EBL, then disappears.

Rebuke Summoned Creature (Su): An Eidolon Binder is a master of all things summoned. While the conjurer may dabble, the Eidolon Binder laughs at his paltry attempts. When faced with a creature summoned using any spell with the summoning or calling descriptor, the Eidolon Binder may cause these creatures to quail in fear. As a standard action, the Eidolon Binder may activate this ability. For any summoned or called creatures that comes within 10'/EBL of the binder, the Eidolon Binder may make an opposed rebuke check. The binder initiating the rebuke attempt rolls 1d20+EBL+Charisma Modifier. The binder controlling the eidolon being rebuked then rolls 1d20+EBL+Wisdom Modifier. If this roll matches or exceeds the total of the rebuke check, the attempt is resisted. Otherwise, the eidolon flees from the rebuking character at max (4x) speed for 1d6 rounds. If the eidolon is incapable of retreating at least 4xbase move, it instead becomes unsummoned.

When facing a creature summoned via any means other than an eidolon binding ceremony (such as by a summon monster or planar ally/binding spell/SLA/Invocation/etc) the rebuke check is instead against a DC of 10+Spell Level+Caster's relevant ability modifier. It is significantly easier to rebuke the summons of those not as dedicated to the art as Eidolon Binders.

Eidolon Creation:

Eidolon creation is done via a point system. The pool of points available to any Eidolon Binder is finite, and must be split between all bound eidolons, though no eidolon may ever be worth more than 50% of the binder's total available points.

The first consideration when creating an eidolon is what creature type to use as the basis. There are three variations of eidolon: Elementals, Magical Beasts, and Outsiders; each with their own benefits and drawbacks.

Elementals are the most basic Eidolons, learned by apprentices. They have d8 hit dice, 3/4HD Base Attack, high Fortitude or Reflex save (chosen by the player), 2+Int Mod skill points per HD and proficiency with light armor.

Magical Beasts are the warriors of the Eidolons. They have d10 hit dice, Base Attack equal to HD, high Fortitude and Reflex saves, 2+Int Mod skill points per HD and proficiency with light and medium armor.

Outsiders are the great sages and arcanists, and can also be accomplished warriors. They have d8 hit dice, Base Attack equal to HD, three high saves, 8+Int Mod skill points per HD and and proficiency with light, medium, and heavy armor..

No eidolons are proficient with any type of shield.

The point cost per HD depends on which type of eidolon the character wishes to create, though in no case may an eidolon have less than 1HD or more HD than the character has Eidolon Binder levels. The point costs are: 1 point per HD for Elementals, 2 points per HD for Magical Beasts, and 3 points per HD for Outsiders.

Each creature type also has it's own list of class skills, as follows:
Elementals: Escape Artist(Dex), Jump(Str), Knowledge(Arcana)(Int), Knowledge(Nature)(Int), Knowledge(The Planes)(Int), Listen(Wis), Search(Int), Spot(Wis)

Magical Beasts: Balance(Dex), Climb(Str), Disable Device(Int) Escape Artist(Dex), Hide(Dex), Intimidate(Cha), Jump(Str), Knowledge(Geography)(Int), Knowledge(Local)(Int), Knowledge(Nature)(Int), Listen(Wis), Move Silently(Dex), Search(Int), Spot(Wis), Survival(Wis), Swim(Str)

Outsiders: Appraise(Int), Balance(Dex), Bluff(Cha), Climb(Str), Concentration(Con), Decipher Script(Int), Diplomacy(Cha), Disguise(Cha), Forgery(Int), Gather Information(Cha), Intimidate(Cha), Knowledge(Arcana)(Int), Knowledge(Architecture and Engineering)(Int), Knowledge(Dungeoneering)(Int), Knowledge(History)(Int), Knowledge(Nobility and Royalty)(Int), Knowledge(Religion)(Int), Knowledge(The Planes)(Int), Listen(Wis), Search(Int), Sense Motive(Wis), Speak Language(-), Spellcraft(Int), Spot(Wis)

After the eidolon's creature type and number of hit dice has been decided and paid for, the next step is to assign ability scores. Take the scores: 15, 14, 13, 12, 11 and 10, and assign them as you see fit to the eidolon's 6 abilities. These may be improved further with points on a 1:1 ratio, though may never be increased by more than +2/EBL.

After assigning scores, we move on to size category. The eidolon binder may create creatures of any size, but sizes larger or smaller than medium incur point costs.

{table=head]Size|Point Cost


Colossal|
50pts

Gargantuan|
30pts

Huge|
15pts

Large|
5pts

Medium|
0pts

Small|
5pts

Tiny|
10pts

Diminutive|
20pts

Fine|
30pts[/table]

Eidolons of greater or smaller than medium size gain all the benefits of size change as given by tables 4-2 and 4-3 on page 291 of the Monster Manual.

From here, it is merely a matter of fine-tuning your eidolon to fit your characters particular desires. Obviously, a comprehensive list of desired abilities cannot be made, but I've listed quite a few example abilities and the relevant point costs. I will also summarize the costs of the previous expenses, minus size category.

Unless stated otherwise, abilities that provide numerical benefits may be purchased more than once, and their effects stack. Any ability requiring a save is DC (10+Eidolon's HD+Eidolon's Constitution Modifier) unless stated otherwise.

{table=head]Eidolon Ability|Associated Point Cost

Elemental Hit Die|1pt/HD (Max=EBL)

Magical Beast Hit Die|2pt/HD (Max=EBL)

Outsider Hit Die|3pt/HD (Max=EBL)

Ability Score Bonuses|1pt/+1 (Max=+2/HD)

Bonus HP=EBL|1pt

+1 to 1 Save|1pt

Low light vision|1pt

Darkvision|2pt/30'

Blindsense|15pt

Blindsight|30pt

+1 Nat Armor or Dodge Bonus to AC|1pt

DR 1/Magic|1pt

DR 1/alignment or metal|3pt

DR 1/-|5pt

Fast healing|10pt/point

Regeneration (1 weakness)|50pt/point

Regeneration (2 weaknesses)|40pt/point

Regeneration (3+ weaknesses)|30pt/point

SR 10+EBL|15pt (May only be purchased once)

Energy Res 5 vs. 1 element|2pt

Immunity to one energy type|15pt

Spell-like Ability Usable 3/day***|5pt/spell level (Caster level=Eidolon's HD)

Change SLA to Supernatural ability|10pt/ability

+5' Base land speed|1pt

Add additional movement type|5pt

+2 bonus to initiative|1pt

Natural Attack(melee)*|2pt/attack (Max 2 attacks+2 for every 5 EBL beyond 1)

Natural Attack(ranged, 30')*|4pt/attack

Add 30' to ranged attack|2pt

Increase die size of attack by 1 (max d12)|2pt

Increase number of dice by original amount**|5pt

Breath Weapon (30' cone or 60' line)|5pt/die of damage (Max dice=Eidolon's HD)

Pounce|5pt

Rend (If your first 2 natural attacks hit, deal additional 2d4+str damage)|3pt

Improved Grab|5pt

Swallow Whole|10pt

Augmented Critical|10pt

Frightful Presence***|15pt

Elemental damage when struck†|3pt/die (Max=HD)

Elemental attack(melee)†|5pt/die (Max=HD)

Elemental attack(melee touch)†|8pt/die (Max=HD)

Elemental attack(ranged, 30')†|7pt/die (Max=HD)

Elemental attack(ranged touch, 30')†|12pt/die (Max=HD)

Add 30' to ranged attack|2pt

Elemental damage(aura, 5')†|15pt/die (Max=HD)

Ability damage (melee attack, Not Con)‡|10pt/point

Ability damage (melee attack, Con)‡|15pt/point

Ability damage (ranged attack, 30', not con)‡|15pt/point

Ability damage (ranged attack, 30', con)‡|20pt/point

Ability damage (melee touch, not con)‡|20pt/point

Ability damage (melee touch, con)‡| 30pt/point

Ability damage (ranged touch, 30', not con)‡| 30pt/point

Ability damage (ranged touch, 30', con)‡| 40pt/point

Energy drain (melee attack)‡|15pt/Negative level (Max=HD)

Energy drain (melee touch)‡|25pt/Negative level (Max=HD)

Immunity to critical hits/sneak attack|30pt

Immunity to ability damage|10pt

Immunity to ability damage/drain|20pt

Immunity to blindness/deafness|5pt

Immunity to sleep effects|5pt

Immunity to paralysis|5pt

Immunity to energy drain|20pt

Immunity to charm effects|10pt

Immunity to compulsion|15pt

Immunity to domination|20pt

Immunity to dazzle effects|1pt

Immunity to daze effects|5pt

Immunity to stun|10pt

Immunity to fatigue|1pt

Immunity to exhaustion|2pt

Immunity to fear effects|20pt

Immunity to mind effects|40pt[/table]



*Natural attacks do 1d6 points of bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage, chosen during Eidolon creation. If the Eidolon is larger or smaller than medium, adjust for size according to table 4-3 on MM1 page 291.

**An attack for a medium sized creature does 1d6 points of damage, so buying this bonus would increase this to 2d6. However, a huge sized creature does 2d6 with the same attack, so it would increase to 4d6.

***The save for these abilities are based on the eidolon's Charisma modifier rather than it's Constitution modifier.

†Elemental attacks deal 1d6 points of Fire, Acid, Cold or Electricity damage, or 1d4 points of Sonic damage on a successful attack. An elemental aura allows a reflex save for half damage.

‡Ability damage is negated by immunity to poison, and follows all poison rules regarding initial and secondary fortitude saves. Energy drain attacks are negated with a successful fortitude save.

Raiki
2010-06-06, 05:53 PM
Binding an Eidolon into an Item.

After you create and stat up your eidolon, the next step is to choose an item to bind the creature into. An item to be bound may have no magical properties, as they interfere with the binding ritual, but may be a weapon, suit of armor, shield, or any other mundane item that can be worn. Other items could include belts, rings, amulets, bracers, or any other item that has a corresponding item slot. Wearing an eidolon-bound item precludes the wearing of a magic item in that slot.

When an eidolon is bound into an item, the item gains a measure of its power. For every point of the eidolon bound into the item, you recieve 1 point with which to upgrade the item, though all benefits are lost when the eidolon is summoned forth. The abilities and bonuses granted by the item vary with its form and function, as shown in the tables below. Unlike with eidolons, item enhancements may never be purchased more than once per Eidolon Binder Level, and some abilities and bonuses have other restrictions, as shown.

{table=head]Weapon Ability|Associated Point Cost

+1 Enhancement bonus to attack|2pt

+1 Enhancement bonus to damage|2pt

+1d6 energy damage|5pts per die (Max 1d6 + 1d6/5 EBL)

Extend critical threat range by 1|5pt (max 5)

Increase critical damage modifier|7pt (max 2)

Change metal type of weapon|3pt

Weapon gains alignment descriptor|3pt

Weapon adds extra attack (as the speed enhancement DMG pg 223|20pt(may only be purchased once)

Ability damage (Not con)|10pt/point

Ability damage (Con)|15pt/point[/table]


{table=head]Armor Ability|Associated Point Cost

+1 Armor Bonus to AC|2pt

+5 Hit Points|1pt

+1 Bonus to Fortitude Saves|5pt

+1 Enhancement bonus to Strength|15pt

+1 Enhancement bonus to Constitution|15pt

Fast Healing|15pt/point

Spell Resistance 11+EBL|25pt (may only be purchased once)

Damage Reduction/alignment or metal|5pt/point

Damage Reduction/magic|2pt/point

Damage Reduction/-|8pt/point[/table]


{table=head]Shield Ability|Associated Point Cost

+1 Shield Bonus to AC|2pt

+1 Deflection Bonus to AC|5pt

+1 Bonus to Reflex Saves|5pt

+1 Enhancement bonus to Dexterity|15pt

Energy Resistance 5 to one energy type|5pt

20% Miss Chance|20pt

50% Miss Chance|50 pt[/table]


{table=head]Other Item Abilities|Associated Point Cost

+2 Initiative|1pt

+5' Base Land Speed|2pt

Gain Alternate Movement Mode|10pt

+1 Enhancement Bonus to Charisma|20pt

+1 Enhancement Bonus to Intelligence|20pt

+1 Enhancement Bonus to Wisdom|20pt*

Lowlight Vision|2pt

Darkvision|3pt/30'

+2 Competency Bonus to 1 Skill|2pt

Immunity to Charm Effects|10pt

Immunity to Compulsions|15pt

Immunity to Dominate Effects|20pt

Immunity to Blindness/Deafness|5pt

Immunity to Dazzle|5pt

Immunity to Daze|10pt

Immunity to Stun|20pt

Immunity to Fatigue|5pt

Immunity to Exhaustion|10pt

Immunity to Ability Damage|10pt

Immunity to Ability Damage/Drain|20pt

Immunity to Energy Drain|30pt

Immunity to Fear Effects|30pt

Immunity to Mind Effects|50pt[/table]
*Bonuses to Wisdom granted by Eidolon Bound Items do not grant additional bonus Bind Points.


Eidolon Binder Feats:

Font of Wisdom:
You find that calling Eidolons comes naturally to you.
Benefit: You may treat your wisdom score as 2 points higher when calculating the total number of bonus Bind Points you receive.
Special: You may take this feat multiple times, its benefits stack.

Bound Fortitude[Bind]:
Your connection with the extraplanar forces of your Eidolons has strengthened your body.
Benefit: Upon taking this feat, you gain bonus Hit Points equal to 2 times the number of feats you have, including this one. Every time you take another [Bind] feat, you gain an additional 2 bonus Hit Points.

[B]Binder Extraordinaire[Bind]:
You find that you can create Eidolons of greater strength than others of your skill level.
Benefit: Treat your Eidolon Binder Level as 2 higher for the purpose of determining your Eidolon's maximum number of Hit Dice.

Focused Binder[Bind]:
You excel at summoning Eidolons of one specific type.
Prerequisites: Wisdom 16, Eidolon Binder level 6
Benefit: Select one kind of Eidolon, either Elemental, Magical Beast, Outsider, Dragon, Fey, or Ooze. When creating Eidolons of this type, Select its ability scores from the following array, rather than the standard array: 18, 16, 14, 14, 12, 12.
Special: This feat may only be taken once. Also, in order to choose dragon, fey, or ooze the character must possess the feat allowing the binding of said types.

Specialized Binder[Bind]:
Your ability to create Eidolons of your chosen type improves.
Prerequisites: Wisdom 18, Eidolon Binder level 12, Focused Binder
Benefit: Eidolons you create of the type selected for your Focused
Binder feat gain an additional 5 Hit Points per HD, an extra 2 Skill Points per HD, and a +1 bonus on all saving throws per 4 HD.

Master Binder[Bind]:
You have reached the pinacle of expertise at binding one type of Eidolon.
Prerequisites: Wisdom 20, Eidolon Binder level 18, Focused Binder, Specialized Binder
Benefit: Eidolons you create of the type selected for your Focused and Specialized Binder feats gain an additional 100 points to be used during creation. These points do not count towards the limit of 50% of your total Bind Points, and are not counted towards the Eidolon's point total when determining item enhancements. For example, Antathion has the Master Binder(Elemental) feat. When creating an elemental, he determines how many points he wishes to spend, then adds 100. However, when enhancing the item the Eidolon is bound into, he would treat the Eidolon's point total as 100 less.

Dragon Binder [Bind]:
You can bind eidolons with the qualities of fearsome dragons.
Prerequisites: Eidolon Binder level 4
Benefit:You may bind draconic eidolons. Hit dice for draconic eidolons cost 6pt/HD. These eidolons have the following traits and qualities:
D12 HD
BAB equal to HD (as Fighter)
All 3 good saves
6+Int Skill Points per HD (x4 at 1st HD). Draconic eidolons recieve the following skills as class skills:
Appraise(Int), Bluff(Cha), Concentration(Con), Diplomacy(Cha), Intimidate(Cha), Jump(Str), Knowledge(Arcana, The Planes)(Int), Listen(Wis), Move Silently(Dex), Sense Motive(Wis), Spellcraft(Int), Spot(Wis) and Swim(Str)

Draconic eidolons also recieve the following upgrades without having to pay the requisite point cost:
+1 Natural Armor bonus to AC per HD
Flight: 30'/HD (Clumsy)
Breath weapon (energy type and area chosen at creation) 1d6/HD Usable once every 1d4 rounds
Darkvision
Immunity to the energy type of the breath weapon
2 Claw attacks (1d4, modified by size)
1 Bite attack (1d6, modified by size)
Immunity to sleep and paralysis


Fey Binder [Bind]:
You can bind eidolons reminiscent of the fey creatures of the forest.
Prerequisites:Eidolon Binder level 4
Benefit: You may bind Fey eidolons. Hit dice for fey eidolons cost 4pt/HD. These eidolons have the following traits and qualities:
D6 HD
BAB equal to 1/2 HD (as Wizard)
Good Reflex and Will saves
6+Int Skill Points per HD (x4 at 1st HD) Fey eidolons recieve the following skills as class skils:
Balance(Dex), Bluff(Cha), Diplomacy(Cha), Disguise(Cha), Escape Artist(Dex), Handle Animal(Cha), Heal(Wis), Hide(Dex), Knowledge(Geography, Nature), Listen(Wis), Move Silently(Dex), Survival(Wis) and Swim(Str)

Fey eidolons also recieve the following upgrades without having to pay the requisite point cost:
Lowlight Vision
Immunity to Charm effects (up to 5 HD) Immunity to charm and Compulsion effects (6-10 HD), Immune to Charm, compulsion and fear effects (11-15 HD), Immune to charm, compulsion, fear, and dominate effects (16+ HD).
Spell Resistance 10+EBL
+1 to saving throws/3HD

Ooze Binder [Bind]:
You can bind mindless eidolons able to engulf their foes.
Prerequisites: Eidolon Binder level 4
Benefit:You may bind Ooze eidolons. Hit dice for ooze eidolons cost 4pt/HD. These eidolons have the following traits and qualities:
D10 HD
BAB equal to 3/4 HD (As cleric)
No good saves
No Skill Points or Feats (Mindless)
Mindless-Creature has no intelligence score and cannot think for itself, following its masters commands to the letter.
Blind
Does not sleep

Ooze eidolons also recieve the following upgrades without having to pay the requisite point cost:
Immunity to Mind Effects
DR 1/Slashing per 3 HD
Blindsight
Immunity to Critical Hits
Immune to Poison, Stunning, Sleep, and Paralysis, as well as all polymorph effects.
Improved Grab
Swallow Whole
Slam attack (1d6, modified by size)
Constrict attack (1d6, modified by size, on successful grapple check)
Acid damage on slam/constrict attacks 1d6/2HD

[B]Charismatic Binder[Bind]:
You bind eidolons with pure force of presence rather than through a combat of wills.
Prerequsites:Charisma 13
Benefit: Your primary binding statistic becomes Charisma. When calculating bonus bind points, taking ability damage from Emergency Summons, qualifying for feats, or adjudicating the benefit of a feat, replace any instance of "Wisdom" with "Charisma". You also gain a permanant +2 bonus on all Rebuke checks.

For the record, yes I know that the defensive abilities are a bit cheaper than the offensive ones, on average. I did this intentionally. Let's face it, defense just isn't as much fun. Also, I was aiming for about Tier 2 with this class. Any comments?

Edit: Some syntax and spelling corrected, Feats added, Infinite Loop between Master Binder and using items to boost your Wisdom score closed. Also, changed Binder Extraordinaire from adding 1HD to adding 2HD, at the insistance of my co-writer.

demidracolich
2010-06-06, 06:23 PM
Very interesting idea, complicated, but pretty original. I really like that fact that this class had a TON of versatility which I'm sure is the point. As for tier, i'm not sure about 2 but it is at least a high 3.

Narmy
2010-06-06, 06:30 PM
Did you originally get this idea from Pathfinder's Summoner?

Raiki
2010-06-06, 06:31 PM
Very interesting idea, complicated, but pretty original. I really like that fact that this class had a TON of versatility which I'm sure is the point. As for tier, i'm not sure about 2 but it is at least a high 3.

Yeah, I realized about halfway through the project (I actually collaborated with a good friend of mine, otherwise this very likely never would have been completed) that it was going to be some drastic kind of complicated. But the versatility is definitely something that was given a high priority.


Did you originally get this idea from Pathfinder's Summoner?

Actually, the idea for the class was based off of demon binding in one of the Elric RPGs that came out in the 80s Stormbringer 4th Ed. I've never played it, but the friend who came up with the idea did.

I've also never played pathfinder. Does the summoner work similarly to this? I'd hate to have done all this work for nothing.

~R~

DMBlackhart
2010-06-06, 06:37 PM
Hmm, I like the idea. However I may have spotted a tiny abuse-able spot in the creation. Correct me if I have made a mistake though.

In the eidolon creation process, you are able to spend points on ability scores at a 1:1 ratio. According to your rules you cant go above 50% of your total points per eidolon created.

Now, unless im missing something, doesen't this meen, in theory, at higher levels ( using lv 20 for example) you could make a eidolon with 200 STR (or other ability score).

So, unless im mistaken this can be abused to do quick and insane large scale destruction. (ever ripped out the support beam of a large imposing wizards tower and tossed it across the entire city? Niether have I, but I am sure it'd cause ALOT of damage)

Anyways, thats my 2 cents. Take em or leave em.

Raiki
2010-06-06, 06:42 PM
Hmm, I like the idea. However I may have spotted a tiny abuse-able spot in the creation. Correct me if I have made a mistake though.

In the eidolon creation process, you are able to spend points on ability scores at a 1:1 ratio. According to your rules you cant go above 50% of your total points per eidolon created.

Now, unless im missing something, doesen't this meen, in theory, at higher levels ( using lv 20 for example) you could make a eidolon with 200 STR (or other ability score).

So, unless im mistaken this can be abused to do quick and insane large scale destruction. (ever ripped out the support beam of a large imposing wizards tower and tossed it across the entire city? Niether have I, but I am sure it'd cause ALOT of damage)

Anyways, thats my 2 cents. Take em or leave em.

That's true, that's something we didn't really consider. I suppose we just assumed people would want to round out their Eidolon's abilities. Do you think it would still be too much to cap it at +2/EBL per stat?

Edit: Done.

DMBlackhart
2010-06-06, 06:44 PM
That's true, that's something we didn't really consider. I suppose we just assumed people would want to round out their Eidolon's abilities. Do you think it would still be too much to cap it at +(2xEBL) per stat?

Hmm, you meen an additional +(2xEBL) yes? Not the overall value, cause that'd be low.

And yes that seems much more balanced. It prevents the players from lifting up buildings and devestating the city gaurd before they have a chance to even lift their swords.

Raiki
2010-06-06, 07:45 PM
Hmm, you meen an additional +(2xEBL) yes? Not the overall value, cause that'd be low.

And yes that seems much more balanced. It prevents the players from lifting up buildings and devestating the city gaurd before they have a chance to even lift their swords.

Yeah, I've edited the formula to make it a bit less ambiguous. Thanks for pointing out the problem.

And if anyone else sees anything that's horrificly unbalanced or breakable, please let me know. I'm hoping to have a refined and ready to playtest version of this class up by tuesday or so.

~R~

Narmy
2010-06-06, 08:37 PM
You should check Pathfinder out.

Here, a link to the advanced player's guide for pathfinder. Tis the beta book free download.

http://paizo.com/store/downloads/pathfinder/pathfinderRPG/v5748btpy8daf

Check out the summoner.

DMBlackhart
2010-06-06, 08:44 PM
Hmm, nother tid-bit to toss out there for you man.

I could be wrong ( I often am) but I don't see Rebuke Summoned Creature anywhere. (the class ability you listed)

Raiki
2010-06-06, 08:47 PM
I'm not actually on a computer where I could download anything, but when I get back to my home PC, I'll definitely take a look, if for no other reason than to see if there are some abilities worth cherry-picking for the higher levels of the class.

Actually, on that note, can anyone think of any good abilities to give this class at levels 12 or 17 or so? I was thinking of adding in Planar Binding, along with the lesser and greater versions, once per day at certain levels. But I'm not really sure if I want to combine the point mechanic with the more typical spell-based summoning.

Any thoughts?

Edit:
Hmm, nother tid-bit to toss out there for you man.

I could be wrong ( I often am) but I don't see Rebuke Summoned Creature anywhere. (the class ability you listed)

Yup, I'm retarded. I forgot to post the description of that ability. Will do so now. Okay, fixed. Thanks for pointing that out.

~R~

Raiki
2010-06-08, 02:35 PM
You should check Pathfinder out.

Here, a link to the advanced player's guide for pathfinder. Tis the beta book free download.

http://paizo.com/store/downloads/pathfinder/pathfinderRPG/v5748btpy8daf

Check out the summoner.

Wow, that really is quite similar. We wound up using the same word and everything.

Well, ultimately, I think our class still diverges from the PF Summoner enough to warrant its existence. :smallbiggrin: Still a bit uncanny though.

Anyway, I've also created some Eidolon Binder specific feats, which I've edited into the second post. Feel free to comment, or to suggest any other feats you think would be appropriate.

~R~

Kobold-Bard
2010-06-08, 02:49 PM
I thought this was a kind of reverse engineering of the Pathfinder Summoner too.

I like it, wish I'd seen it whilst I was building that Gestalt character, would have been sweeeet :smallbiggrin:

Raiki
2010-06-08, 02:53 PM
Yeah, I can definitely see where that comparison comes from; but being in a group that's primarily 3.5, none of us had even seen the summoner before yesterday.

Fair warning about gestalt, though. This class hasn't been playtested yet, so relative power level is unverified. I can't know, but I strongly suspect that this class would break down in Gestalt. Especially if paired with a CoDzilla as the other half. :smalleek:

But if you want to try it out anyway...*nudge nudge*. :smallwink:

~R~

Kobold-Bard
2010-06-08, 02:56 PM
Yeah, I can definitely see where that comparison comes from; but being in a group that's primarily 3.5, none of us had even seen the summoner before yesterday.

Fair warning about gestalt, though. This class hasn't been playtested yet, so relative power level is unverified. I can't know, but I strongly suspect that this class would break down in Gestalt. Especially if paired with a CoDzilla as the other half. :smalleek:

But if you want to try it out anyway...*nudge nudge*. :smallwink:

~R~

I'm aware of that, that was the point :smalltongue:

too late now, maybe on my next character (or a bad-guy in my next DM game), it's definitely snagging my interest.

Amel
2010-06-13, 11:01 PM
:smallconfused: I figured that there would have been more of a response by now. Guess most people aren't that impressed by our idea.

In other news; we've had our first few sessions and so far the Eidolon Binder has proven to be acceptable. Although I wonder if the E-summon might need to be nerfed a little. I'll have to wait and see if the Wisdom damage proves an acceptable balance. If you can't tell yet, I'm the DM.

Other than that, the Eidolons have shown to be entertaining. I'm really looking forward to seeing how the class performs as the levels increase.

DaTedinator
2010-06-14, 12:17 AM
I'm not sure I understand the item binding rules. As written, can I really have a +20 weapon that deals 14 Con damage on a successful hit? And heck, even just at first level, get a +1 flaming keen adamantine weapon? I'm sure I'm missing something obvious and I'm gonna look dumb, but that's what it looks like to me.

Mulletmanalive
2010-06-14, 07:37 AM
I'm not sure I understand the item binding rules. As written, can I really have a +20 weapon that deals 14 Con damage on a successful hit? And heck, even just at first level, get a +1 flaming keen adamantine weapon? I'm sure I'm missing something obvious and I'm gonna look dumb, but that's what it looks like to me.

Its quite possible that was intended. It is all your resources and people always moan about the Soulknife being based around getting a weapon...

Lix Lorn
2010-06-14, 09:48 AM
This is pretty cool!
I like to see classes with abilities at every level-but I can see why you HAVEN'T done that here. However, maybe a Capstone ability?
What I'd think is the ability to us ALL your eidolon points in a single creature, but this puts you in a catatonic state-like, you're piloting it.
That seem good?

Dante & Vergil
2010-06-14, 01:59 PM
This looks like a FFX Summoner, which is awesome!!
If I were to add anything, allow more than Outsider, Magical Beast, and Elemental, but they can be feats, and it is only a suggestion.

NecroticPunch
2010-06-14, 02:48 PM
Hey, look... You can turn a level 20, completely maxed out Eidolin Binder, into the best shield + armor + item combo ever.

At level 20, you can give yourself the following set of armor + shield

Buy +13 to constitution. ( That's 195 Points )

Donate 100 points to the shield for 100% miss chance!

Donate 40 points to an item for +100 speed, so that you can run really fast. Cap it off immune to Mind, Exhaustion, and Faituge effects.

Now you can't be hit! And your Fast! And You Randomly have +13 to Constitution... which is a lot!



Edit: In fact, if you spent the points, you could make yourself immune to everything with one item, and 100% miss chance for everything else. You can effectively make yourself a god.

Lord Badguy
2010-06-14, 03:12 PM
I really like this class. I'm fond of summoner types, and this looks like the ultimate "Build your own monster" class. :smallbiggrin:

I'd love to help play-test the class, though I don't know of any home-brew-heavy games looking for players.

My only concern is that Emergency Summon gives EBs a way to tap into "next week's resources" in a way that no other class can, especially when they get a summon that has three times as many points (not counting WIS bonus) as any of your other critters (given the 50% limit on your regular summons).

Although a 600-point colossal monstrosity would be an awesome way to finish of a BBEG... :smalltongue:

*EDIT* Small question here: What happens when a summon dies? I don't see this anywhere in the OP. My initial house-rule would be for the creature to be un-summoned, along with not provide it's bonuses to the bound item or be re-summoned, until a set amount of time has passed (subject to GM approval, from "end of combat" to "the next day").

Amel
2010-06-14, 05:56 PM
I know I'm not answering for every possible flaw mentioned, but here are a couple.


I'm not sure I understand the item binding rules. As written, can I really have a +20 weapon that deals 14 Con damage on a successful hit? And heck, even just at first level, get a +1 flaming keen adamantine weapon? I'm sure I'm missing something obvious and I'm gonna look dumb, but that's what it looks like to me.
We're still working on balancing this class, obviously. We're trying to find a good medium between points for each Eidolon and points for the items. For a while it may just come down to trial and error.


I like to see classes with abilities at every level-but I can see why you HAVEN'T done that here. However, maybe a Capstone ability?
What I'd think is the ability to us ALL your eidolon points in a single creature, but this puts you in a catatonic state-like, you're piloting it.
We're still working on possible abilities. Though, we do have some fantastic new feats courtesy of Raiki. As for an EB using all of her points in one shot; I don't think so. From a DM standpoint, that's way too much power. From a player standpoint, the WIS dmg. from the regular E-Summon is already prohibitive. The current play-tester has only used the E-Summon once so far, and it took a party member dropping to motivate her. Essentially putting oneself into a coma is not exactly appealing.


If I were to add anything, allow more than Outsider, Magical Beast, and Elemental
This is partially a function of the game world that we're playing in and a function of the concept of the class. Also, we're trying to limit some options right now in order to keep the play-testing manageable. That being said, I do have some ideas already for other types to allow. Ultimately, I think it should be left up to each DM to allow whatever types they feel are appropriate to their games, should they allow this class.


Donate 100 points to the shield for 100% miss chance!
You can't actually do that. Looking at the table, those are not cumulative (no "+" in front of the value) You can purchase either 20% or 50%. Possibly both, but that is still in discussion.


Although a 600-point colossal monstrosity would be an awesome way to finish of a BBEG...

*EDIT* Small question here: What happens when a summon dies? I don't see this anywhere in the OP. My initial house-rule would be for the creature to be un-summoned, along with not provide it's bonuses to the bound item or be re-summoned, until a set amount of time has passed (subject to GM approval, from "end of combat" to "the next day").
As mentioned, while the E-Summon has the definite potential to be seriously powerful, it's subsequent WIS dmg. can be a deterrent. Especially since once the duration runs out you're left without being able to summon forth the more powerful regular Eidolons (with the WIS dmg., you temporarily lose those points). The Eidolon stays in the weapon, and you can still gain it's benefits, but you don't have the will-power to call it forth and control it.

This is what I'm going with right now, and it may change as the class gets refined: When an Eidolon is called forth and dies in combat, it is dead, the item goes inert, and you must re-bind another Eidolon in order to replace it. The upshot is that you do get your points back from that Eidolon. This may seem severe, but I'm looking at this as a balancing mechanic. If it just gets injured somehow, it can be healed by any means that would work normally while it is summoned. Or, if returned to the item, it heals faster than normal (right now I have it being at twice the normal rate).

Raiki
2010-06-14, 06:14 PM
Sorry for the delay, I've been unable to sign on for a week or so, but now I'm back and ready to answer questions.

First, however, I would like to acknowledge Amel as the co-creator of this class. Welcome him to the boards nymphs and trolls. :smallbiggrin:

Anyway, on to questions.

Ted/Mulletman: Yes, the power of the weapons and armor was intentional. We most certainly did not want another Soulknife. Let me point out that, with all of their eidolons bound up in their equipment, the Eidolon Binder is effectively a fighter with:
A) No bonus feats,
B) A d8 HD
C) Average BAB
D) No access to Fighter only feats
E) No magical armor/weapons (remember that eidolons may only be bound into mundane objects, and that each "item" takes up a magic item slot).

Also consider that whenever an eidolon is summoned forth from its item, the item loses all enhancements, becoming the same mundane item it was created from.

Lix: That kind of idea was what we had in mind when we build the Emergency Summon mechanic. As far as class features at higher levels go, that will definitely be included in a later update. We just haven't come up with them yet. A capstone will be included, but Amel and I need to actually agree on something first (a task that is harder than it sounds) :smallamused:.

Dante: Feats like that may indeed be created. Limiting the eidolons to 3 types was unfortunate, but at the time necessary if we ever wanted to post this thing. :smalltongue:

Necrotic: I think you may have to read the item binding rules a bit more closely. First off, no enhancement may be bought more than (EBL) times, which controls the levels at which things like speed and constitution bonuses may be bought. Yes, +13 (or +20 even) Con sounds like alot, but at their respective levels, and tacked on the framework of the EB, I don't see it being a real problem. Secondly, miss chances do not stack with themselves, so 50% is the highest you can have (with this class anyway); otherwise, Wizards with Mirror Image, Invisibility, Blink, and Displacement up would have something along the lines of a 200% miss chance.

Badguy: We would LOVE you to playtest this class, if you can. If you'd get the chance, let me know and we can PM you the latest errata (of which I'm sure there will be plenty). And as far as the E-Summon goes, there are definite drawbacks to summoning that 600pt monstrosity you mentioned. Twenty points of Wis damage takes quite awhile to heal naturally, and during that time you would be unable to summon any of your E-Summons. Also, (and I'll be editing that section to clarify this part later) whenever you're suffering from Wisdom damage, you're unable to summon forth any bound eidolon with a point total greater than (EBL+Current Wisdom Modifier)x2.5.

And on eidolon death: When an eidolon dies, it is just that...dead. There is nothing stopping you from re-summoning an identical eidolon, but you would have to pay the ritual costs all over again, and spend 8 hours performing it. So, for this reason, it would be a very good idea not to let your eidolons die.

Aaaaaaand, I think that's all the questions. :smallbiggrin:

Thank you all for commenting on the class and helping us out. I'll be editing the orginal posts within the next few days to write these answers in and to clarify a few more things. Keep the questions coming, and thanks again for the support!

~R~

Edit: And I'm ninja'd by my co-creator. How beautiful. :smallamused: But I did at least make a few points he didn't, so I'll leave the replies as they are.

Lix Lorn
2010-06-14, 06:31 PM
When I said that, I hadn't actually seen the e-summon. XD

Raiki
2010-06-14, 07:41 PM
Well, we aim to please. (Especially fellow Firefly fans.)

~R~

Fable Wright
2010-06-14, 11:12 PM
This seems like a cool class. Would it be too broken for a tier 3 game? if not, could you get a tier 3 version? I'd really love to play this sometime.

Amel
2010-06-15, 12:18 AM
This seems like a cool class. Would it be too broken for a tier 3 game? if not, could you get a tier 3 version? I'd really love to play this sometime.

It really is still in the early stages of development, and though we're shooting for Tier 2, I really think we'll land in Tier 3 anyway. Honestly, the only reason we're even play-testing it already is because we're both experienced DMs and we know that we can come up with interim fair rulings for any problems that might come up. That aside, I think Raiki would agree whole-heartedly that we would love for you to try this out, tell us what you think is wrong, awesome, and needs to be fixed, and what you did to fix it in the meantime. I tend to lean majorly towards balance and story telling vs crunch.

NecroticPunch
2010-06-20, 08:46 AM
What kind of action is used when summoning a bound Eidolin? And re-binding it to an item?

Raiki
2010-06-20, 02:17 PM
What kind of action is used when summoning a bound Eidolin? And re-binding it to an item?

Ahh, yet one more thing that I need to edit into the first post. :smallsigh:

Anyway, it's a full round action to summon an eidolon, and when summoned it can appear in any square adjacent to your position. Recalling an eidolon to an item is a free action, and may be done from any distance (though you must still be on the same plane).

Will edit in now.

Edit:
This seems like a cool class. Would it be too broken for a tier 3 game? if not, could you get a tier 3 version? I'd really love to play this sometime.

Also, as to this question, I (personally) think that because of the SLA ability of the eidolons, it's going to fall into tier-2. Anything with the ability to cast 9th level spells from any class's spell list, even if it's a very limited amount of spells, and even if it's only 3/day, is at least tier-2 in my mind. If you want to bump it down to tier 3, I'd say:

A) Cap the SLAs at 5-6th level spells, and increase the point cost of that ability to 7-8pts per spell level.

B) Reduce the total number of points by 1/4, or alternatively, cap the maximum points per eidolon to 1/3 max rather than 1/2.

C) Cap all abilities bought for eidolons and items at 1/2 EBL (rather than unlimited for eidolons and 1/EBL for items).

That may actually take it down to high tier-4, but it's alot closer to tier 3 than the original is.

~R~

Amel
2010-06-20, 05:21 PM
Yay for updates!

The Eidolon Binder now gets bonus feats at 4th, 8th, 12, 16th, and 20th level. And there are new feats available, allowing them to summon and bind three new Eidolon types.At the behest of our playtester.
We spent a fair amount of time considering their abilities and point costs, and we think it works. But, certainly, look it over and let us know what you think.

And as always, we want you to playtest this. Players, give it a run as a PC (get the approval of your DM first, of course). DM's, try it out as an enemy to your players, or even as an ally. And let us know what flaws, failings, or questions you find.

NecroticPunch
2010-06-21, 07:24 AM
o.o I think that, if you guys were shooting for Tier 2, you missed, at least at the low levels. Being able to dish out huge amounts of damage in 1 hit ( I did 20% of a CR 11 monster, but that was because I got a lucky critical. At level 5 ) makes this incredible powerful at fairly low levels. I'd put the tier on this at tier 1 at the least. At higher levels, I'd probably put it at tier 2, but I'm honestly not that sure.

Edit: And I can already see how to be dishing out 20d6 energy damage every turn as a fifth level. Lets see the damage, shall we? That's, on average, 60 damage every time you hit the enemy with a shtick. I mean... that's just so damn powerful. Any chance of making it less so?

NecroticPunch
2010-06-21, 07:52 AM
o.o I think that, if you guys were shooting for Tier 2, you missed, at least at the low levels. Being able to dish out huge amounts of damage in 1 hit ( I did 20% of a CR 11 monster, but that was because I got a lucky critical. At level 5 ) makes this incredible powerful at fairly low levels. I'd put the tier on this at tier 1 at the least. At higher levels, I'd probably put it at tier 2, but I'm honestly not that sure.

nxwtypx
2010-06-21, 10:44 AM
This is awesome, at first glance.

I'll stat one for fun, and post my findings later.

Raiki
2010-06-21, 05:05 PM
o.o I think that, if you guys were shooting for Tier 2, you missed, at least at the low levels. Being able to dish out huge amounts of damage in 1 hit ( I did 20% of a CR 11 monster, but that was because I got a lucky critical. At level 5 ) makes this incredible powerful at fairly low levels. I'd put the tier on this at tier 1 at the least. At higher levels, I'd probably put it at tier 2, but I'm honestly not that sure.

Edit: And I can already see how to be dishing out 20d6 energy damage every turn as a fifth level. Lets see the damage, shall we? That's, on average, 60 damage every time you hit the enemy with a shtick. I mean... that's just so damn powerful. Any chance of making it less so?

So wait, are you actually playing an Eidolon Binder in a campaign, or was this just a dry test run? Either one is awesome, but I'm still curious.

And this is the exact reason that we've asked people to help us playtest this. What mechanic were you using for the 20d6 damage? Was that an E-Summon, a regular summon, or an item granted ability? Because I just went back and tried to crunch the numbers, and couldn't come up with anything even remotely this high at 5th level, and if I missed something, and it is possible, that definitely needs a good hit with the nerf-hammer. :smalleek:



This is awesome, at first glance.

I'll stat one for fun, and post my findings later.

I'm glad you like it, and can't wait to hear how it worked for you. :smallsmile:

~R~

Amel
2010-06-21, 11:04 PM
Perhaps I am mistaken, as I often am, but I can see how one could potentially be dishing out 20d6 worth of energy damage a turn normally at 5th level. I'll go into the specifics with my co-creator at the next opportunity and see about an appropriate fix. With two-weapon fighting, one could potentially be dishing out even more. This does give me a certain amount of reservation as a DM. Though I would never admit to any sort of worry.

In the meantime, please continue with your feedback. We appreciate your points of view. After all, even a beholder can't see in every direction.

My eye-stalks are a quiver with anticipation.

Fizban
2010-06-21, 11:41 PM
I like the idea, but it's got the same problem as the Pathfinder Summoner: way to easily minmaxed. It's incredibly cheap to get pounce, multiple natural weapons, and a huge strength score, and I can't even rate the spell like abilities since it doesn't list how often they can be used.

5th level wis 16 eidolon: 57 points.
5 Elemental HD, 5 points
Large size, 5 points
+10 strength, +10 con, 20 points
5 natural attacks, 10 points
pounce, 3 points
+9 natural armor, 9 points
15 str/ 14 con/ 13 dex before mods

Final stats: str 33, dex 8, con 28, NA +11. Hp 67, AC 20, full attack +14/+9/+9/+9/+9 for 1d8+11 and 1d8+5.

You either have two of these guys, or one bruiser and one utility guy depending on your needs. And that's not counting the emergency guy with even more oomph.

There's no limit on the number of natural attacks added either, and the natural armor was just to soak the last 9 points. I could have easily given it 9 attacks, and with a pounce like that you don't need AC (especially not with potions of mage armor or mithril chain shirts). The price of a 5th level breath weapon is 25 points. This could instead buy you pounce, +13 strength (8 size, 5 bonus), and 6 natural weapons. They're way too cheap, and they need hard limits.

While I like the point systems giving you more freedom, they're always easier to break. I like the idea of giving bonuses for the bound eidolons, it's kind of like the Binder's extra binding abilities, and it's a nice alternative to just generic 6th level casting. The class is a solid idea, but it needs a much shorter and more defined list of abilities and limits, or at least very explicit reminders that the DM must approve all eidolons (just like epic spells).

Raiki
2010-06-22, 02:59 AM
I like the idea, but it's got the same problem as the Pathfinder Summoner: way to easily minmaxed. It's incredibly cheap to get pounce, multiple natural weapons, and a huge strength score, and I can't even rate the spell like abilities since it doesn't list how often they can be used.

5th level wis 16 eidolon: 57 points.
5 Elemental HD, 5 points
Large size, 5 points
+10 strength, +10 con, 20 points
5 natural attacks, 10 points
pounce, 3 points
+9 natural armor, 9 points
15 str/ 14 con/ 13 dex before mods

Final stats: str 33, dex 8, con 28, NA +11. Hp 67, AC 20, full attack +14/+9/+9/+9/+9 for 1d8+11 and 1d8+5.

You either have two of these guys, or one bruiser and one utility guy depending on your needs. And that's not counting the emergency guy with even more oomph.

There's no limit on the number of natural attacks added either, and the natural armor was just to soak the last 9 points. I could have easily given it 9 attacks, and with a pounce like that you don't need AC (especially not with potions of mage armor or mithril chain shirts). The price of a 5th level breath weapon is 25 points. This could instead buy you pounce, +13 strength (8 size, 5 bonus), and 6 natural weapons. They're way too cheap, and they need hard limits.

While I like the point systems giving you more freedom, they're always easier to break. I like the idea of giving bonuses for the bound eidolons, it's kind of like the Binder's extra binding abilities, and it's a nice alternative to just generic 6th level casting. The class is a solid idea, but it needs a much shorter and more defined list of abilities and limits, or at least very explicit reminders that the DM must approve all eidolons (just like epic spells).

A) Thank you for pointing out the missing SLA limit. We had established near the beginning that it was going to be 3/day, but I apparently forgot to type it in when I wrote up the chart. That has been fixed.

B) The eidolons were always meant to be DM-reviewed, but I guess that's just so standard in our games that I didn't bother to mention it. I suppose that explicitly stating that wouldn't hurt at all.

C) You're most likely right on the money about the natural attacks. I suppose we should increase the point cost and/or limit the number by EBL. Say, 2 for 5? As in lvl 1-5: 2 attacks, 6-10: 4 attacks, etc etc. That's something Amel and I will have to collaborate on soon (we game tomorrow[today! holy crap it's late!], so that shouldn't be a problem), and we'll post our fix in the next day or so.

D) @Amel/Necrotic: Am I really the only one who can't see how to get all this energy damage? And I thought I was so good at TO. :smallsigh:
And give it up, Amel. I still am, and will always be, the white text ninja.
~R~

Fizban
2010-06-22, 03:54 AM
I'd give the first one free, then each one after that costs 5 cumulative points. So the second is 5, the third is 10, and so on. That could be too much, but I'd rather err on the side of less. No extra natural attacks until at least 5th level, and no more than 3 until after 10th should be good. Pounce should cost 5 or 10 points as well. Rend needs rules about how many attacks it applies to.

NecroticPunch
2010-06-22, 08:12 AM
You buy 5d6 of 2 elements on 1 sword, combine with a second sword and voila. And that's without bonus from extra wisdom. I can already see a way to get 30d6 at level 5....

Ralasha
2010-06-22, 10:30 AM
(ever ripped out the support beam of a large imposing wizards tower and tossed it across the entire city? Niether have I, but I am sure it'd cause ALOT of damage)

I haven't either, but one of my character tossed the top of a mountain at a storm giant once. I love abusing strength scores and size bonuses. Take that! 2 million tons of stone... coming atcha!

Raiki
2010-06-22, 01:51 PM
You buy 5d6 of 2 elements on 1 sword, combine with a second sword and voila. And that's without bonus from extra wisdom. I can already see a way to get 30d6 at level 5....

Actually, the cap on dice of energy damage isn't per type of energy. It's a flat cap on the maximum number of bonus dice granted by the "elemental damage" enhancement. You could have 1d6 fire, 1d6 cold, 1d6 acid, and 2d6 electricity. But you cannot have any more than 5 dice total.

@Fizban: I do like letting them have at least 2 attacks at earlier levels. If you make it so they can only have 1 at first level, they can't even have claw/claw, much less the claw/claw/bite routine that even a kobold has.

~R~

Forever Curious
2010-06-22, 02:26 PM
Just wanted to say this is BEAUTIFUL class! Great concept, solid crunch (or maybe not...?): I love this. Then again, I'm not one who seeks to abuse classes, so balance is over my head.

I also have an idea on how to drum up playtest feedback if you're interested. Ever read Shaman King?

Raiki
2010-06-22, 04:00 PM
Just wanted to say this is BEAUTIFUL class! Great concept, solid crunch (or maybe not...?): I love this. Then again, I'm not one who seeks to abuse classes, so balance is over my head.

I also have an idea on how to drum up playtest feedback if you're interested. Ever read Shaman King?

Thanks for the support. We like to think that the crunch has a nice solid foundation, and just needs a bit of tweaking. The balance should be fine in a high tier and/or moderately optimized game. The one we're playtesting in our group seems to work out just fine, and is no stronger or weaker than any of the other characters.

And to answer your question, no I haven't. But we're always interested in possible playtesting.

~R~

Tavar
2010-06-22, 10:42 PM
Very nice class. One thing I'd add, however, would be a some more extra bind feats. Maybe one that changes the main stat from Wisdom to Charisma. I think the fact that it seems to work on Force of Will as much as anything else makes such a feat easy to work in. Probably something like this:

Binding Personality[Bind]:
Prerequisites: Cha 13
Benefit: You use Charisma in place of wisdom for any applicable abilities from the Eidolon Binder class or for the prerequisites of Bind feats. Additionally, you may treat your Charisma as 2 higher for the purposes of determining Bonus Bind points.
Special: If you have this feat, you Font of Wisdom instead applies to Charisma.

Amel
2010-06-23, 02:48 AM
I've known that the crunch needed work from the point of creation, and that's why we put it up here; to get feedback. In all though, I'd like to think that we've got the potential for a very solid class. If nothing else, the responses and suggested fixes we get from those play-testing this at home will only help the class get there faster. So get to play-testing, kiddies!


Very nice class. One thing I'd add, however, would be a some more extra bind feats. Maybe one that changes the main stat from Wisdom to Charisma. I think the fact that it seems to work on Force of Will as much as anything else makes such a feat easy to work in. Probably something like this:

Binding Personality[Bind]:
Prerequisites: Cha 13
Benefit: You use Charisma in place of wisdom for any applicable abilities from the Eidolon Binder class or for the prerequisites of Bind feats. Additionally, you may treat your Charisma as 2 higher for the purposes of determining Bonus Bind points.
Special: If you have this feat, you Font of Wisdom instead applies to Charisma.

We are currently working on more feats for the EB, but suggestions of this type are more than welcome! Personally, I think this feat is pretty good. But, as always, it is something that Raiki and I will have to discuss. Of course, what you do at your table is up to you, and if the DM says "OK", then go for it! :smallwink: Of course, if you're the DM, you can do whatever you like.

Hmm, with this feat, a gestalt EB and Sorc. would be ridiculously awesome. :smallbiggrin:

Forever Curious
2010-06-23, 11:08 AM
Very nice class. One thing I'd add, however, would be a some more extra bind feats. Maybe one that changes the main stat from Wisdom to Charisma. I think the fact that it seems to work on Force of Will as much as anything else makes such a feat easy to work in. Probably something like this:

Binding Personality[Bind]:
Prerequisites: Cha 13
Benefit: You use Charisma in place of wisdom for any applicable abilities from the Eidolon Binder class or for the prerequisites of Bind feats. Additionally, you may treat your Charisma as 2 higher for the purposes of determining Bonus Bind points.
Special: If you have this feat, you Font of Wisdom instead applies to Charisma.

Just based off some recent number crunching, this feat would probably wind up being positively broken... well, maybe not "broken", but absolutely powerful.

Tavar
2010-06-23, 11:09 AM
Just based off some recent number crunching, this feat would probably wind up being positively broken... well, maybe not "broken", but absolutely powerful.

How so?TenLetteres

Forever Curious
2010-06-23, 11:20 AM
How so?TenLetteres

As this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8765321&postcount=34) post shows, the class is still pretty well off with MAD. Make it solely charisma based and you get an absolute power house.

Then again, I'm not the most balance savvy individual, but those numbers scare me.

Tavar
2010-06-23, 11:23 AM
Ummm....it already only uses Wisdom for all class abilities. This feat just changes it to Charisma.

Forever Curious
2010-06-23, 11:27 AM
Ummm....it already only uses Wisdom for all class abilities. This feat just changes it to Charisma.

Not true. It uses charisma for it's Rebuking Summoned Creature ability, which I admit isn't much. It might wind up being a big part of our Binder Game, though, which is the only reason I'm a tad concerned.

...on second thought, it's not that large of a boost. It would just offer more options to be crazy good.

Lix Lorn
2010-06-23, 11:27 AM
And lets him get two Charisma points worth of bonus binding points.

Tavar
2010-06-23, 11:29 AM
Rebuke Summoned Creature (Su): An Eidolon Binder is a master of all things summoned. While the conjurer may dabble, the Eidolon Binder laughs at his paltry attempts. When faced with a creature summoned using any spell with the summoning or calling descriptor, the Eidolon Binder may cause these creatures to quail in fear. As a standard action, the Eidolon Binder may activate this ability. For any summoned or called creatures that comes within 10'/EBL of the binder, the Eidolon Binder may make a rebuke check. The binder rolls 1d20+EBL+Wisdom Modifier against a DC of 10+spell level used to summon the creature+summoners relevant ability modifier. If this check succeeds, the summoned or called creature flees from the binder in the most direct path for 1d6 rounds. If the creature is unable to flee, it instead cowers. This ability may also be used against another binder's Eidolons; In this instance, the DC is the eidolon's point total divided by 5.

No mention of Charisma here.

And I gave it the two bonus points because you're switching the main stat from Wisdom to the much weaker Charisma.

Perhaps the rebuke ability needs to be changed. Right now, it seems a bit powerful.

Forever Curious
2010-06-23, 11:37 AM
...okay, I KNOW it was Charisma originally.

Well, since it's not, that's my suggestion: keying the rebuke feature to charisma. The concept of "rebuking" seems to be tied to Charisma across the board, so no reason to change it for this class.

Tavar
2010-06-23, 11:47 AM
Even then... with a Cha of 10, you'll easily rebuke Eidolons.

Right now, I think Rebuke is just too strong. For rebuking Eidolons, how about basing the DC off 10+Point cost/X+Bonus Point Stat. I'd suggest either 10 or 20 for X. I haven't done the math, but I think that puts them on about the same level as spells.

Lix Lorn
2010-06-23, 11:50 AM
And I gave it the two bonus points because you're switching the main stat from Wisdom to the much weaker Charisma.
Okay, this may sound stupid, but why is Charisma weaker?

Tavar
2010-06-23, 11:52 AM
Okay, this may sound stupid, but why is Charisma weaker?

Will saves, mainly. Plus Wisdom based skills are generally better/more vital than Charisma based ones(Spot/Listen).

Forever Curious
2010-06-23, 11:54 AM
Will saves, mainly. Plus Wisdom based skills are generally better/more vital than Charisma based ones(Spot/Listen).

Not only that, but Wisdom based classes are much more powerful in general to Charisma based ones.

Tavar
2010-06-23, 11:55 AM
Not only that, but Wisdom based classes are much more powerful in general to Charisma based ones.

True, but that's not something that factors into the feat design.


Edit: Actually, Rebuke needs to be completely rewritten. As it is, every 2 levels gives you +2 to your check and +1 to the DC. By 20th level, against and equivalent level summon, you have a roll of 1d20+20+Ability Mod, vs a dc of 19+ability mod for summons. On the other hand, against Eidolons you'll never succeed, as the DC for them increases by +2 per level with the base points alone, and it's even more once the Bonus points are factored in.

Forever Curious
2010-06-23, 12:04 PM
True, but that's not something that factors into the feat design.

I know, just saying....

Lix Lorn
2010-06-23, 12:05 PM
(nods)
I thought they might be the reasons. Kay.

Tavar
2010-06-23, 12:11 PM
Actually, Rebuke needs to be completely rewritten. As it is, every 2 levels gives you +2 to your check and +1 to the DC. By 20th level, against and equivalent level summon, you have a roll of 1d20+20+Ability Mod, vs a dc of 19+ability mod for summons. On the other hand, against Eidolons you'll never succeed, as the DC for them increases by +2 per level with the base points alone, and it's even more once the Bonus points are factored in.

Edit: Also, you might want to put something in the Emergency Summon area that allows the damage to override immunities to ability damage. Otherwise, that ability from the Other Item list is going to be really, really good.

Forever Curious
2010-06-23, 12:58 PM
For anyone interested in helping playtest, I'm running a tournament style game here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=157324). Please take a look.

Any feedback/suggestions will be welcome.

Ralasha
2010-06-23, 01:21 PM
You could just base the Rebuke on the level of the creator of the Eidolon, for the DC, and make their rebuke equivilent to a paladin's turning ability. This would make it far more balanced. Making the DC to rebuke an eidolon 10+EBL+Primary Binding Mod. While the Rebuke would be 1d20+EBL. This way it is harder, but not impossible to rebuke another's eidolon. It should after all, be difficult to steal one from someone else that is actively controlling it.

M. Mayonnaise
2010-06-23, 02:16 PM
Hey, first of all, awesome class. I'm not an expert on game balance but the concept looks pretty cool to me. I had a few questions about it, though. Firstly, why did you decide not to allow taking the Focused Binder line of feats for the additional Binding types, like Fey and Ooze? Is there a specific reason you limited it to the basic three types of eidolons? I was also wondering if you intended to make an epic-level progression for this class. Maybe a bonus feat every 2-3 levels, with no additional binding points but an epic feat that gives you more every time you take it, like Improved Spell Capacity did for spellcasters? Would it be too powerful for bonus binding points to continue to increase at the same rate? I occasionally play at epic levels, so I'd be interested to know if you intended to add additional material for that.
Other than those questions, this class is pretty awesome. Keep up the great work!

The-Mage-King
2010-06-23, 06:09 PM
A query- are you intending to make PrCs for this?

Gorgondantess
2010-06-23, 08:17 PM
So, just wondering... how long does an emergency summon last? What's to stop one from just pulling out all the shots, summoning their biggest emergency summon, then sleeping off the wisdom damage and having some insanely powerful creature do their bidding?

Tavar
2010-06-23, 10:46 PM
Proposed changes to the Rebuke Creature Ability. Also, changed the feat to reflect that this does help the class.

Rebuke Summoned Creature (Su): An Eidolon Binder is a master of all things summoned. While the conjurer may dabble, the Eidolon Binder laughs at his paltry attempts. When faced with a creature summoned using any spell with the summoning or calling descriptor, the Eidolon Binder may cause these creatures to quail in fear. As a standard action, the Eidolon Binder may activate this ability. For any summoned or called creatures that comes within 10'/EBL of the binder, the Eidolon Binder may make a rebuke check. The binder rolls 1d20+EBL+1/2 their Charisma against a DC of 10+summoner's caster level+effects that would make the summon more difficult to dispel. If this check succeeds, the summoned or called creature flees from the binder in the most direct path for 1d6 rounds. If the creature is unable to flee, it instead cowers. This ability may also be used against another binder's Eidolons; In this instance, the DC is 10+EBL+Charisma Modifier. This ability ends at the start of the Binders next turn.


Binding Personality[Bind]:
Prerequisites: Cha 13
Benefit: You use Charisma in place of wisdom for any applicable abilities from the Eidolon Binder class or for the prerequisites of Bind feats. Additionally, you gain a +2 bonus to resist Rebuke Rolls.
Special: If you have this feat, the feat Font of Wisdom instead applies to Charisma.

Amel
2010-06-24, 01:29 AM
Hmm, my keen powers of observation tell me that some of you might think our Rebuke ability needs some reworking. I will confer with Raiki at the next opportunity and we will see about adjusting it.
On that subject, a few of you think it should be CHA based. The concept of the class is based solely around the character's willpower. I am loath to change the stat base merely because of game convention. But this will also be something I'll discuss with Raiki. I am unlikely to be swayed.

Edit: Also, you might want to put something in the Emergency Summon area that allows the damage to override immunities to ability damage. Otherwise, that ability from the Other Item list is going to be really, really good.
It was there all the time. :smallwink:

Emergency Summon (Su): In times of dire need, the eidolon binder may call upon a more powerful eidolon than he usually has access to. Doing this is strenuous, causing 1 point of wisdom damage per 30 points of the eidolon. At first level, and at every subsequent level, the eidolon binder creates one eidolon that may be summoned this way. The eidolon may be worth any amount of points up to 30 per EBL. For example, at 1st level, Antathion has created an eidolon worth 30 points as his emergency summon. At 2nd level, he creates a new eidolon with a point total of 60. At any time, he may summon either one of these into existence, taking 1 or 2 points of temporary wisdom damage respectively. This ability may not be used if you are somehow immune to wisdom damage, and the damage it causes may not be healed by any means other than natural rest.
When an Eidolon Binder has any amount of wisdom damage from the use of this ability, she may not summon any of her Emergency Summons, nor may she summon forth any eidolon with a point total greater than (EBL+Current Wisdom Modifier)x2.5. Emergency Summon is a full round action that provokes an attack of opportunity.

Elsewhere...

Hey, first of all, awesome class. I'm not an expert on game balance but the concept looks pretty cool to me. I had a few questions about it, though. Firstly, why did you decide not to allow taking the Focused Binder line of feats for the additional Binding types, like Fey and Ooze? Is there a specific reason you limited it to the basic three types of eidolons? I was also wondering if you intended to make an epic-level progression for this class. Maybe a bonus feat every 2-3 levels, with no additional binding points but an epic feat that gives you more every time you take it, like Improved Spell Capacity did for spellcasters? Would it be too powerful for bonus binding points to continue to increase at the same rate? I occasionally play at epic levels, so I'd be interested to know if you intended to add additional material for that.
Other than those questions, this class is pretty awesome. Keep up the great work!
Thanks, M. Mayonnaise. The game world that I've got going sets things up so that the three core Eidolon types are Outsiders, Elementals, and Beasts. The other three are for those EBs that wish to make the extra effort and reach farther beyond the veil for something to bind. Of course, at one's own table, the base Eidolon types could be any of those, or even some other type altogether. Also, the three feat-granted Eidolons already have extra abilities and qualities given them as special Eidolon types. But I will discuss this also with Raiki, and see what he thinks.
We will certainly consider an epic progression with accompanying feats. It was something I had already brought up when talking with Raiki. So, look for that in future posts. :smallsmile: Hmm, undead Eidolons. I like that.


A query- are you intending to make PrCs for this?
It is something I've considered, but not put any serious thought into just yet. The main class still needs a fair bit of work. When it's done, I'm sure I will turn to thoughts of PrCs. Perhaps that can be where the undead come in.


So, just wondering... how long does an emergency summon last? What's to stop one from just pulling out all the shots, summoning their biggest emergency summon, then sleeping off the wisdom damage and having some insanely powerful creature do their bidding?
Hmm, that somehow missed the write-up. Anyway, I believe that we currently have it working at 3rds. per EBL. It will be fixed post haste. Heh. Wizard joke there.
Thank you for your support, everyone. Your continued interest and ideas are making this class better and better.

Tavar
2010-06-24, 09:34 AM
On that subject, a few of you think it should be CHA based. The concept of the class is based solely around the character's willpower. I am loath to change the stat base merely because of game convention. But this will also be something I'll discuss with Raiki.
The class is based around binding creatures to your will. That could fall under either Wisdom or Charisma. Really, both stats overlap into this area, so I don't see any reason not to offer a method to change the stats.

EdroGrimshell
2010-06-24, 12:42 PM
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=69882

This may give you a couple ideas for an interesting side project, it seems to fit the theme

The-Mage-King
2010-06-24, 12:45 PM
It is something I've considered, but not put any serious thought into just yet. The main class still needs a fair bit of work. When it's done, I'm sure I will turn to thoughts of PrCs. Perhaps that can be where the undead come in.

Nice to know that all our zombie needs will be taken care of...

Chambers
2010-06-24, 01:34 PM
The DC to Rebuke Summoned creatures is too low. A first level Eidolon Binder with a 14 Wisdom has a 50% chance to Rebuke a creature summoned with a third level spell. (1d20+3 vs DC 13)

Why not just follow the Turn Undead rules? Both summoned creatures and eidolons have HD.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#turnOrRebukeUndead

Replace Charisma with Wisdom and Undead with Summoned/Eidolon creatures.

edit:

Or to keep it simple either increase the DC, lower the bonus the Eidolon adds, or both. Such as...

Eidolon rolls 1d20+Wis modifier vs the save DC of the spell (10 + spell level + ability mod of caster)

Tavar
2010-06-24, 01:54 PM
Or to keep it simple either increase the DC, lower the bonus the Eidolon adds, or both. Such as...

Eidolon rolls 1d20+Wis modifier vs the save DC of the spell (10 + spell level + ability mod of caster)
Not sure that the math quite works out on that. I think it's simpler to use a modified caster level check.

Chambers
2010-06-24, 02:00 PM
Not sure that the math quite works out on that. I think it's simpler to use a modified caster level check.

Yeah. I totally failed at reading the top of this page where Rebuking was already discussed.

NecroticPunch
2010-06-24, 02:10 PM
do Enhancement Bonuses increase your Binder Points?

Tavar
2010-06-24, 02:12 PM
Yeah. I totally failed at reading the top of this page where Rebuking was already discussed.
Eh, so far we're still discussing option, and inputs always good. I dislike the turning mechanic, as I think it's a bit more difficult than it needs to be. Caster Level seems the best compromise.

Raiki
2010-06-24, 03:52 PM
I'm going to go on the record here saying that the turning mechanic will be changed. What it will be changed to is still a matter of contention between Amel and I (Remember when I said the hardest part was finding something we agree on? Yeah, that.).

It will most likely be very similar to an opposed caster level check for straight EB vs. EB turning. However, considering the wide variety of different spells and abilities that let you summon things magically, I think the EB vs. Caster one will most likely remain based on spell level (Or effective spell level in the case of Invocations and the like). Expect a revised formula to be posted within the next 6 hours or so, as Amel and I work things out.

Also, expect a few more minor changes. We've been considering changing the point costs of a few things. Natural attacks will almost certainly be edited, energy resistance may be changed as well. I appologize to anyone currently playtesting the class if this throws a wrench in their plans.

Anyway, I can't wait to see how the pbp game comes along! Thanks alot for all the help.

~R~

Chambers
2010-06-24, 05:12 PM
What about the Rake ability for Eidolons?

The-Mage-King
2010-06-24, 06:18 PM
And I've an important few questions- do Eidolons have automatic weapon and armor proficencies, and do they get feats as per standard advancement rules?

Raiki
2010-06-24, 06:42 PM
Okay, the rebuke ability, along with a few of the eidolon abilities are fixed. I've added the feat Tavar suggested, with a few modifications.

One of the more important modifications was the modification to the energy damage added when binding eidolons into a weapon.

Also, having read through most of the PBP thread, I would like to stress that any and all eidolon bound "Items" must designate a magic item slot (such as neck, waist, or brow) and that no magic items may be worn in the designated slot.

Other than that one thing though, it looks like everyone's picking up the mechanics really well. Sorry for the crap Rebuke system from before, but this one should work a whole lot better.

~R~

The-Mage-King
2010-06-24, 06:45 PM
And the feats thing?

Raiki
2010-06-24, 06:51 PM
Yes, all eidolons do recieve feats based on HD, and they have all weapon proficiencies that their type designates. For armor, Elementals are proficient with light armor, Magical Beasts with Light and Medium armor, and Outsiders with all forms of armor. No eidolons are proficient with shields. (This will all be edited into the orginal posts shortly)

~R~

Gorgondantess
2010-06-24, 06:59 PM
Can they be summoned with items equipped, or do they have to be summoned, given the armor, don the armor, then it stays behind when they're recalled?
Also, you haven't answered my first question- just how long does an emergency summon last? Until it dies?

Chambers
2010-06-24, 07:01 PM
Can they be summoned with items equipped, or do they have to be summoned, given the armor, don the armor, then it stays behind when they're recalled?
Also, you haven't answered my first question- just how long does an emergency summon last? Until it dies?

He did. 3 rounds per EBL, then it is unsummoned.

Raiki
2010-06-24, 07:03 PM
Eidolons, like a paladins special mount, may be equipped. Any equipment given to them will disappear when they leave and reappear with them whenever they are summoned.

And I did edit the answer to your other question into the E-Summon part of the 1st post. They last for 3 rounds/EBL.

*Deep Breath* Okay, I think that's everything for now.

~R~

Chambers
2010-06-24, 07:12 PM
Hmm. Can an Eidolon wear an item that has an Eidolon bound to it and gain the benefits from the item?

Raiki
2010-06-24, 07:17 PM
Hmm. Can an Eidolon wear an item that has an Eidolon bound to it and gain the benefits from the item?

Questions like that invite the God-Hammer.

I'm going to come down with a brief yet emphatic NO.
I'm apparently in love with red text today.
~R~

Tavar
2010-06-24, 07:42 PM
Questions like that invite the God-Hammer.

I'm going to come down with a brief yet emphatic NO.
~R~

Any particular reason for that limit?

The-Mage-King
2010-06-24, 07:51 PM
Any chance of the Eidolons getting, say, Soulmelds or Maneuvers as special abillities?

Raiki
2010-06-24, 07:54 PM
Any particular reason for that limit?

Frankly, it breaks the power curve something fierce. The limits placed on eidolon power would be near pointless if you could just take other powers on them via bound items. Believe it or not, we're not trying to rival Druidzilla here, only the sorcerer.


Any chance of the Eidolons getting, say, Soulmelds or Maneuvers as special abillities?

Hmm. I'm going to have to go with no and no. Now, I don't mean to be a jerk about it, so let me give my reasoning.

Adding soulmelds to the class would be a disaster both thematically and mechanically. Thematically, how could a summoned creature have the ability to manipulate soul energy? Eidolons are supposed to be beings of extra-dimensional origin, not gods. Mechanically, adding soulmelds would require us to add essentia and chakras and all the other accoutrement that goes along with it. I'm sorry, but that's a level of complexity I don't want to touch with a 10' pole.

As far as maneuvers...well, the group that Amel and I play with doesn't use tob, so my familiarity with it is passing at best. Not only do I not feel comfortable with Homebrewing something I don't know, but I feel that adding major class features to a class feature is really a bit much. The druid's animal companion already outfights the fighter, we don't need all of the Eidolon Binder's eidolons outfighting the animal companion.

~R~

The-Mage-King
2010-06-24, 08:03 PM
Hmm. I'm going to have to go with no and no. Now, I don't mean to be a jerk about it, so let me give my reasoning.

Adding soulmelds to the class would be a disaster both thematically and mechanically. Thematically, how could a summoned creature have the ability to manipulate soul energy? Eidolons are supposed to be beings of extra-dimensional origin, not gods. Mechanically, adding soulmelds would require us to add essentia and chakras and all the other accoutrement that goes along with it. I'm sorry, but that's a level of complexity I don't want to touch with a 10' pole.

As far as maneuvers...well, the group that Amel and I play with doesn't use tob, so my familiarity with it is passing at best. Not only do I not feel comfortable with Homebrewing something I don't know, but I feel that adding major class features to a class feature is really a bit much. The druid's animal companion already outfights the fighter, we don't need all of the Eidolon Binder's eidolons outfighting the animal companion.

~R~

Eh, just asking. I was wondering because they can get SLAs, and a few other things can...

I guess I'll just have to use all of the feats to pick 'em up on my melee combatant...

Tavar
2010-06-24, 08:30 PM
Frankly, it breaks the power curve something fierce. The limits placed on eidolon power would be near pointless if you could just take other powers on them via bound items. Believe it or not, we're not trying to rival Druidzilla here, only the sorcerer.
True...How about a feat. With some more restrictions. Something like....
Inclusive Binder[Bind]:
You can bind items that can work for others, even including eidolons.
Prerequsites:Wisdom 15
Benefit: You may make bound items that others can use, but doing so is difficult. Half of the item points for the created item are tied up in allowing other to use the item. While it is in the others possession, you may not call the eidolon forth.



Adding soulmelds to the class would be a disaster both thematically and mechanically. Thematically, how could a summoned creature have the ability to manipulate soul energy? Eidolons are supposed to be beings of extra-dimensional origin, not gods. Mechanically, adding soulmelds would require us to add essentia and chakras and all the other accoutrement that goes along with it. I'm sorry, but that's a level of complexity I don't want to touch with a 10' pole.
Eidolons are made of soul energy. This would just be one controlling their structure better. That said, yeah, very complicated.


As far as maneuvers...well, the group that Amel and I play with doesn't use tob, so my familiarity with it is passing at best. Not only do I not feel comfortable with Homebrewing something I don't know, but I feel that adding major class features to a class feature is really a bit much. The druid's animal companion already outfights the fighter, we don't need all of the Eidolon Binder's eidolons outfighting the animal companion.

You're already adding spells. It wouldn't be out of line for the Eidolon to have access to something similar. In fact, there are monsters in ToB that have them as racial abilities. Probably... Gain a stance or a manuever(1/encounter) for 4/level. Gets a slight discount as they're on the whole less powerful/broad than magic, but still costs a bit.

Raiki
2010-06-24, 08:31 PM
Eh, just asking. I was wondering because they can get SLAs, and a few other things can...

I guess I'll just have to use all of the feats to pick 'em up on my melee combatant...

That's true. There's nothing stopping you from picking up any of the feats from those books. I suppose you could shape soulmeld and martial study to your heart's content. I just don't think it's a good idea to give the eidolons those abilities through points.

~R~

CN the Logos
2010-06-24, 08:32 PM
Here's a few questions I haven't seen answers for yet:

If, say, I want to pick up alternate movement type (Other Item Abilites) to fly, what would my speed and maneuverability be? If it's different for other movement types, what about them?

Can I add binding points gained at level up to an old eidolon without having to recreate it completely? If so, how?

Can I change the abilities an eidolon grants when it's bound to an item? And can I change the item an eidolon is linked to?

Thanks for your answers in advance, and thanks for the awesome class. If these were answered somewhere before, I apologize, I'm very tired and couldn't find them. Just quote it, or point at the post in question or something.

Raiki
2010-06-24, 08:38 PM
You're already adding spells. It wouldn't be out of line for the Eidolon to have access to something similar. In fact, there are monsters in ToB that have them as racial abilities. Probably... Gain a stance or a manuever(1/encounter) for 4/level. Gets a slight discount as they're on the whole less powerful/broad than magic, but still costs a bit.

As I've said, I'm not familiar with tob and don't feel comfortable homebrewing with it. If others want to use it in their builds, that's fine, but it's never going to be in the official Eidolon Binder. *shrug* Just a matter of differing tastes I suppose.

Edit: As for the feat. Amel and I will discuss it, but I don't feel that lending the class features of the Eidolon Binder to other people is really the best route to take with the class. There are so many other options that the class gives, that this really would push the class too close to Tier1 in my opinion.


Here's a few questions I haven't seen answers for yet:

If, say, I want to pick up alternate movement type (Other Item Abilites) to fly, what would my speed and maneuverability be? If it's different for other movement types, what about them?

Your speed would be equal to your base land speed (I swear I typed that in, but it's easier to answer than check, and I'm tired too). Average maneuverability.


Can I add binding points gained at level up to an old eidolon without having to recreate it completely? If so, how?

Yes you can. It was never explicitely stated, but feel free. I would say that it would require another 8 hour ritual to improve them, but no further GP expenditure would be necessary.


Can I change the abilities an eidolon grants when it's bound to an item? And can I change the item an eidolon is linked to?

The answer to both is: not without unbinding and rebinding the eidolon. Once points are allocated, they may not be removed save for unbinding the eidolon.

There will probably be more questions before I even finish posting this, but that's everything I've seen so far.

~R~

Tavar
2010-06-24, 09:07 PM
Yeah, after I though about it, I realized how good that could be. Hence the reduction in point value, though I'm not sure if it's reduced enough. All things considered, I think there needs to be some serious number crunching before that feat is even considered viable.

Still, I like the concept behind it. Pity that it seems impossible to translate. Well, off to crunch some numbers.

Is there any way to improve speed/maneuverability?

Amel
2010-06-24, 09:21 PM
Hmm, alot going on tonight.

The Focused Binder feat has been changed to include all six of the Eidolon types.

Also, the three new Eidolon feats granting access to Dragon, Fey, and Ooze types have had the prerequisite lowered to EBL 4, so they can now be taken with the 4th level bonus Bind feat.
Yay! Whee! ZAP!

Raiki
2010-06-24, 09:26 PM
I think there needs to be some serious number crunching before that feat is even considered viable.

Still, I like the concept behind it. Pity that it seems impossible to translate. Well, off to crunch some numbers.

Is there any way to improve speed/maneuverability?

A) It is a good idea, but I agree that the class needs more work before we consider it.

B) You can improve an additional movement mode's speed by increasing your base land speed. Since the new mode's speed id equal to your BLS, it would increase both. At the moment, there is no way to increase maneuverability beyond average. (Does anyone even use the maneuverability rules anyway? I thought they were like multiclass XP penalties and encumberance.)

~R~

Chambers
2010-06-24, 09:28 PM
Non-permanant bonuses to wisdom (such as those granted by spells) do not grant any additional bind points.

Semi-permanant bonuses to wisdom (such as from Magic Items) do count, however should the item ever be removed or destroyed, all bound eidolons immediately become unsummoned and bound items become inert until the Eidolon Binder meditates for 8 full hours to regain his mental clarity and focus.

Should the Eidolon Binder's bind points ever drop below the amount necessary to bind all of their eidolons, their lowest point value eidolon becomes unbound. This process continues until their number of available bind points is equal to or greater than the number of bind points in bound eidolons.

First part is fine.

The second and third parts are really harsh. If a character has a periapt of wisdom, which they probably will since that's their 'casting' stat, all someone has to do is sunder it and *pop* there go all your class abilities.

If someone knows they are going up against an Eidolon Binder and takes the spell....oh, perhaps Mind Poison (Sorcerer/Wizard 3)? 1d10 touch attack Wisdom damage. There go your bindings.

Wisdom damage should not just about completely nerf you. A spell caster that gets their spellcasting ability score bombed still has his or her previously cast buff spells active, even if he or she can't cast them right now.

Perhaps instead of unsummoning the eidolons and nerfing the item abilities, impose a penalty on all rolls (attacks, saves, skills, etc) equal to the amount of Wisdom lost. You still get to use your class abilities, but the loss of your willpower makes it harder to control them.

(And I thought about not saying anything and dropping this on someone in the PvP...but that wouldn't be much fun for the other person.)

Tavar
2010-06-24, 09:38 PM
B) At the moment, there is no way to increase maneuverability beyond average. (Does anyone even use the maneuverability rules anyway? I thought they were like multiclass XP penalties and encumberance.)

I think they're used pretty often. At least, any group I've been in that has flight happen uses them.



The second and third parts are really harsh. If a character has a periapt of wisdom, which they probably will since that's their 'casting' stat, all someone has to do is sunder it and *pop* there go all your class abilities.
Worse. All it takes is a dispel magic. Yeah, that's....well, you made stat boosting items worthless for the class.

If someone knows they are going up against an Eidolon Binder and takes the spell....oh, perhaps Mind Poison (Sorcerer/Wizard 3)? 1d10 touch attack Wisdom damage. There go your bindings.

Wisdom damage should not just about completely nerf you. A spell caster that gets their spellcasting ability score bombed still has his or her previously cast buff spells active, even if he or she can't cast them right now.
)
Actually, I think what they have is reasonable. For that section, at least.

Chambers
2010-06-24, 09:46 PM
Actually, I think what they have is reasonable. For that section, at least.

Eidolons can choose to do wisdom damage with their weapon. In our case it basically makes it a requirement that everyone wear armor and choose the immune to ability damage option or lose your class abilities sometime during the fight.

Tacitus
2010-06-24, 09:48 PM
Would you consider a special magic item that specifically allows an Eidolon to be bound to it and perhaps also offers a second lesser ability related to Eidolon Binding?

I ask in reference to Incarnum Foci, which allow a Soulmeld to occupy the same location as the Incarnum Focus despite it being a magic item and also give +1 capacity (and if the Focus is bound the soulmelds there can't be unshaped or drained against your will).

I've no idea how something of the sort would work, but its an idea...

Raiki
2010-06-24, 09:50 PM
First part is fine.

The second and third parts are really harsh. If a character has a periapt of wisdom, which they probably will since that's their 'casting' stat, all someone has to do is sunder it and *pop* there go all your class abilities.

If someone knows they are going up against an Eidolon Binder and takes the spell....oh, perhaps Mind Poison (Sorcerer/Wizard 3)? 1d10 touch attack Wisdom damage. There go your bindings.

Wisdom damage should not just about completely nerf you. A spell caster that gets their spellcasting ability score bombed still has his or her previously cast buff spells active, even if he or she can't cast them right now.

Perhaps instead of unsummoning the eidolons and nerfing the item abilities, impose a penalty on all rolls (attacks, saves, skills, etc) equal to the amount of Wisdom lost. You still get to use your class abilities, but the loss of your willpower makes it harder to control them.

(And I thought about not saying anything and dropping this on someone in the PvP...but that wouldn't be much fun for the other person.)

You're actually...very right here. As I've stated before, I'm rather tired today, so that slipped through the cracks of my mind. I think for simplicity's sake we're going to just say that stat boosting items do not grant additional Bind Points. Yes, it makes it more difficult to boost your eidolon's power into the stratusphere, but it makes it less fatal if you're hit with dispel magic too.

And as for making stat buffing items worthless Tavar, we're still most likely going to add another class ability or two at higher levels (especially a capstone) that would be based off of Wisdom. To be honest, the class was always meant to play closer to a ranger than a wizard anyway. Decent combat abilities, a friend or two, and limited supernatural abilities. So not gaining "bonus spells" as it were isn't such a horrible thing.


Would you consider a special magic item that specifically allows an Eidolon to be bound to it and perhaps also offers a second lesser ability related to Eidolon Binding?

I ask in reference to Incarnum Foci, which allow a Soulmeld to occupy the same location as the Incarnum Focus despite it being a magic item and also give +1 capacity (and if the Focus is bound the soulmelds there can't be unshaped or drained against your will).

I've no idea how something of the sort would work, but its an idea...

It's actually a very neat idea. It will be awhile before Amel and I get things sorted out enough to start working on items, but it's definitely something we'll take into consideration.

~R~

Tavar
2010-06-24, 10:06 PM
And as for making stat buffing items worthless Tavar, we're still most likely going to add another class ability or two at higher levels (especially a capstone) that would be based off of Wisdom. To be honest, the class was always meant to play closer to a ranger than a wizard anyway. Decent combat abilities, a friend or two, and limited supernatural abilities. So not gaining "bonus spells" as it were isn't such a horrible thing.


I was mainly talking about how fatal it was if they lose the item. Though it is nice to get a better idea of how the class is supposed to work. Makes me want to get that inclusive binder feat working even more. Always like the idea of a support character.

Tacitus
2010-06-24, 11:42 PM
What do you think about allowing Psi-Like abilities? Essentially use psionic powers instead of spells. I'm personally only thinking of Empathic Transfer for a healing battery.

Though if there is a spell that does it better, I'd love to know. >.>

Also, am I to assume that taking the same Spell for SLA 3/day to get 6/day is acceptable? It doesn't specify you can't, but its best to ask. XD
Also, any thoughts on At Will instead of 3/day? Maybe like 25/level or something? I'm fairly interested in getting like CLW At Will.

Would you consider Warforged Composite Plating mundane? (It can be enchanted like armor, and if not I would have to assume its still mundane, but again, asking.)

Tavar
2010-06-24, 11:57 PM
Using the full transparency, I think it would work. Personally, I'd assume that any power that could be augmented would be augmented fully, but that how it was done so would be chosen at the time of binding, and couldn't be changed.

Of course, lower powers would become much, much better...Ah. It's augmented cost becomes it's power level, rounded down.

Tacitus
2010-06-25, 12:16 AM
Hmm... and the Eidolons, 30ft base land speed? Same as Binder? 30ft adjusted up or down by Size? Depends on Type? Did I miss this somewhere?

Raiki
2010-06-25, 08:51 AM
Because of the Augmentation abilities, Psi Like Abilities are still being discussed by Amel and I. We'll let you know if anything comes of it, but for the moment assume nothing.

Yes, you can buy the same SLA more than once to have it 6 or 9 times a day. At the moment, there is no way to get one at will.

Warforged plating would work perfectly fine, but beware people sundering/shattering your skin.

Eidolon base land speed is 30ft regardless of type or size, though it may be increased as per the table in post 1.

~R~

Tavar
2010-06-25, 10:13 AM
You can't sunder armor. And shatter targets objects, not creatures, so not sure if it would actually work.

Might be a good idea to let them make bound items more resilient. Maybe a bonus against shatter effects, and a boost in hp/hardness.

Raiki
2010-06-25, 10:50 AM
You can't sunder armor. And shatter targets objects, not creatures, so not sure if it would actually work.

Might be a good idea to let them make bound items more resilient. Maybe a bonus against shatter effects, and a boost in hp/hardness.

The same problem arises there as has already been discussed in the PBP thread. The bonuses would only apply when the eidolon is actually inside the item. And then it counts as magical, so you couldn't shatter it anyway. It's when the eidolon isn't in the item that it becomes soft and squishy.
Soft squishy steel?
Nevertheless, Amel and I had talked about increasing the hp and hardness of bound items. I'll see if I can find our original formula.

~R~

Tavar
2010-06-25, 10:53 AM
I meant increasing it even when the item isn't occupied. Cause, as it is now, this class has a huge blindspot on them.

Raiki
2010-06-25, 07:46 PM
I meant increasing it even when the item isn't occupied. Cause, as it is now, this class has a huge blindspot on them.

Amel and I will, again, discuss the issue. It should change soon, but that may take a day or so.

Also, made some further adjustments today. Everything changed is in blue.

~R~

The-Mage-King
2010-06-26, 03:08 PM
I think that you need to add some rule for multi-limbed Eidolons. By that, I mean some that can weild more than one weapon at a time...

EdroGrimshell
2010-06-27, 04:23 PM
How about adding mechanics to gain something like rage, sneack attack, etc.

Amel
2010-06-27, 07:06 PM
Raiki and I have discussed the matter of Bound item hardness and have decided to have the items improve at the time of the ritual binding. When the Eidolon Binder performs the ritual that prepares the item to hold an Eidolon, the item is made more resiliant through it's connection to the supernatural. Each item affected this way will gain 5hp and 1 hardness per EBL.
Sundering just got challenging!
Raiki will make this change in the original entries soon.


I think that you need to add some rule for multi-limbed Eidolons. By that, I mean some that can weild more than one weapon at a time...
An Eidolon can have as many limbs as you wish to pay for natural attacks. However, no Eidolon can have more than two item-using limbs.

Chambers
2010-06-28, 04:36 PM
You can't sunder armor. And shatter targets objects, not creatures, so not sure if it would actually work.

Interestingly enough, the rule says you can't sunder armor worn by another character. So you could sunder armor that no one is wearing...or sunder your own armor? Heh. The second part is probably best considered to violate RAI though.

Fable Wright
2010-06-28, 04:59 PM
Sorry if this is a repeat of any previous posts, but in playtesting, it proves that the ability to have an eidolon with 1/2 your full pool of points is too powerful. I would recommend that your eidolons have to have 1/4 or below the points in your pool.

Raiki
2010-06-28, 05:04 PM
Sorry if this is a repeat of any previous posts, but in playtesting, it proves that the ability to have an eidolon with 1/2 your full pool of points is too powerful. I would recommend that your eidolons have to have 1/4 or below the points in your pool.

That's most likely what we're going to wind up doing, but at the moment there's a large scale playtest going on the the PBP forums, so I don't want to make any major changes until that's completed.

~R~

Amel
2010-06-28, 06:28 PM
Sorry if this is a repeat of any previous posts, but in playtesting, it proves that the ability to have an eidolon with 1/2 your full pool of points is too powerful. I would recommend that your eidolons have to have 1/4 or below the points in your pool.

While I do not necessarily disagree with what you're saying, it would help greatly if you were to give us examples of what you meant. ie; character and Eidolon builds, and a description of the event or events in question.

Personally, I think that a 1/3 total point build would be more balanced while maintaining the intended versatility of the class. However, Raiki and I will discuss the matter at length. But any final decisions will be postponed until the PBP playtest currently running is complete.
Yay for Eidolon Binder tournaments! Whoo!
As always, we appreciate all of your help. Please continue to give us feedback on your experiences and observations in using this class.

The-Mage-King
2010-07-06, 10:21 AM
Any more updates to this yet?

EdroGrimshell
2010-08-17, 04:21 PM
Any more updates for this thing? I really want to see it evolve a bit more.

Raiki
2010-08-19, 11:52 AM
Any more updates for this thing? I really want to see it evolve a bit more.

Well, the pbp game seems to have fizzled and died. Too bad, it was a cool idea. Also, we haven't had a chance to play the RL game that we're playtesting this in for a few months now. Rest assured that this thread will not be neglected when any new material presents itself.

~R~

YouLostMe
2011-04-23, 11:30 AM
I've just realized... this is a pokemon trainer class...

averagejoe
2011-04-24, 12:47 PM
The Mod They Call Me: Thread necromancy.