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mattman238
2010-06-06, 06:53 PM
Hello Giant in the Playground,
I have been a long time lurker and need your collective wisdom in overcoming this challenge. The scenerio is a PvP death match with me (a 5th lvl sorcerer) versus a 9th lvl barbarian. The following conditions apply:
32 pt buy
WBL
all books
no pun pun, plane shift cheese, or infinite loops
I can be a sorcerer with any Prc but no other "base classes"
One round of buufing but any "all day long" buffs would apply (for example mage armor at 5 hours would apply, but shield would not)

I want to win this encounter by a long shot and I am decent at optimization but any help would be appreciated.
Thanks GitPG.

Human Paragon 3
2010-06-06, 06:56 PM
Boost your save DCs as high as possible and attack his will save. Something as simple has a Tasha's Hideous Laughter will take him out if he has no way to stop it. Have Fly prepared and be ready to use it. Mirror Image is another good choice, as is Minor Image to make walls and such that the play will have to interact with (waste actions on) to disbelieve.

Prodan
2010-06-06, 06:56 PM
Sorcerer 5, you say?

4 first level spells, 2 2nd level spells.

I say you pump Cha, pick up Spell Focus: Conjuration and Greater Spell Focus: Conjuration, hit him with Web, then Glitterdust, then Ray of Enfeeblement.

While he's flailing around unable to move and blind, kill him with Magic Missiles.

Reynard
2010-06-06, 07:00 PM
Well, you want to stop him charging, so Grease, Web, etc would be nice.

But you also need enough damage spells to do enough damage to take care of someone with 9th level WBL and a crapton of hit points. I suggest trying to get some way of suffocating/drowning the bugger.

And thank the lord for Cha being a dumpstat for Barbarians and for UMD for being cross-class. Altough if he does pump Cha and UMD, tell him he isn't actually playing a barbarian, and that a monk or fighter could do the same job. and that a rogue could do it better.

Prodan
2010-06-06, 07:07 PM
But you also need enough damage spells to do enough damage to take care of someone with 9th level WBL and a crapton of hit points. I suggest trying to get some way of suffocating/drowning the bugger.

Power Word Pain + Metamagic Rod of Extend Spell

So, Spells:

1:
Grease
Ray of Enfeeblement
Expeditious Retreat
Power Word Pain

2:
Glitterdust
Web

Critical
2010-06-06, 07:11 PM
Dragonspawn Loredrake Dragonwrought Kobold, throw a debuff or two, then Shivering Touch him to death with your familiar.

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-06-06, 07:14 PM
For race, may I suggest being a Dragonwrought Loredrake Spell-hoarding Kobold sorcerer? This will allow you to cast as a wizard instead of a sorcerer and at +2 effective wizard levels. Take alternate class features like Stalwart Sorcerer and Battle Sorcerer, because their penalties mean jack diddly to you. Laugh as you boost saves with Int at either +5 or +7 (I forget how much of a bonus the Spell-hoarding psychosis gives) and dump Cha like a madman. Proceed to do the unknown and profit.

balistafreak
2010-06-06, 07:18 PM
While he's flailing around unable to move and blind, kill him with Magic Missiles.

At 5th level the Sorcerer is really going to have to work to win. He can definitely force a draw and humiliate the Barbarian a bit, but with four extra levels on the Sorcerer and no save-or-dies, merely save-or-sucks, the Sorcerer might be unable to push the kill.

Some part of me worries that the Sorcerer won't actually have enough Magic Missiles to kill him. He'll have six 1st level spells to cast and four 2nd level spells, seven and five if he has any sort of Charisma score whatsoever... which as a Sorcerer, I'll assume.

Hmmm. I'ma do the math. Seven magic missile spells at his level is 3 missiles per casting, or 21 missiles. The average missile deals 3.5 damage (1d4+1), for 73.5 damage.

A 9th level barbarian, with a somewhat-low-for-his-class Constitution of 14, gets 14 HP at 1st level then 8 levels of 8.5 health average for a total of 82 HP.

Well, crap. Magic Missile won't do the job here. Glitterdust won't even last him seven rounds - at 5th level it'll last five, and somehow I doubt he can easily pump his caster level at this point in time. :smallannoyed:

Web won't guarantee the win either. You can set yourself on fire to break fire of the webs - which at 9th level, he can actually afford to do. You can cast Web five times, and he can set himself on fire five times for 10d4 (25 average) damage. So if he's smart enough to have access to fire, or simply carries a flaming weapon, you can't rely on him being permanently delayed by the webs - maybe two or three rounds per casting, leaving you with only one or two rounds to try and kill him.

Although if he sets himself on fire every time, he will have dealt enough damage to himself for you to kill him with magic missiles. :smallamused:

I think you're basically forced into five castings of Web here. You can't afford the slim chance that he might make his Glitterdust save.

This is actually a fun experiment. Casters aren't completely broke before 3rd level spells. :smallbiggrin:

EDIT: Of course, you could just cheese up and get 3rd level casting at ECL 5. Hell-ooooooo, Shivering Touch. :smallannoyed:

Jack_Simth
2010-06-06, 07:26 PM
Magic Missile isn't what you want; it doesn't do much.

A light Crossbow lets you stock up on a lot of ammo, however. THAT's what you use if you have him pinned in a Web (or Blinded by a Glitterdust, or...), as you can hit him over & over & over again (until he breaks loose, anyway).

Depending on the terrain of the arena, you might look at Swift Fly (Spell Compendium, page 96). 1-round of flight, as a Swift action - it doesn't do much, but it does, say, get you to the top of a pillar. Where you can plink at the barbarian on the ground (unless he bought a potion of Fly).

mattman238
2010-06-06, 07:32 PM
Where does the "loredrake" and "spell hoarding" come from?

Jack_Simth
2010-06-06, 07:50 PM
Where does the "loredrake" and "spell hoarding" come from?

LoreDrake is from Dragons of Eberron - requires you to be a True Dragon, which, as a Kobold with the Dragonwrought feat, you technically qualify for (thanks to a passage Races of the Dragon). It reduces your racial hit dice by one size category, and grants you +2 Sorcerer casting levels. As a Kobold, you don't have any racial hit dice. So for the cost of a feat, you get +2 Sorcerer levels. Which means you're casting as a Sorcerer-7 at level 5.

Spellhoarding turns your Sorcerer casting into Wizard casting (not actually all that useful, here, but does give you access to 4th level spells), but it's from Dragon Magazine, so...

The Greater Draconic Rite of Passage (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a) costs you some HP and some GP, and... ah, you don't qualify - nevermind.

But 7th level Sorcerer casting has a MUCH better chance of beating a Barbarian-9 than does Sorcerer-5 casting.

Prodan
2010-06-06, 07:50 PM
I did also suggest Power Word Pain.

Ernir
2010-06-06, 07:56 PM
Hmm. I'd bet on the Barbarian, really...

Dracons
2010-06-06, 08:01 PM
Shilvering Touch is a 2nd level spell... I'd use that since all books qualify.

I'm going to say do a reverse, and go for ref if possible, or touch. He'll likely have his Will save decently high, as it be 3 (level) + 2 (Rage) and say, 14 wisdom for an addition + 2. Total of +7. (not including any will feats). Assuming you have say a 18 charisma, the DC's of your highest spell is 16.

Go for touch and no save spells. Ray of enfeeblment may take away 6 points of his strength, but with his rage? That will basically do nothing, so screw the ray of enfeeblment at this point. Go for the ray that takes away dex.


EDIT: Risky gambit, but Entice Gift may allow you to take his weapon, which can take away alot of his damage potentinal. It requires you to be in melee action, and you'd need an escape plan, like a quicken dimentional door. (You can use that feat that allows you to do one quicken per day?? I think?)


EDIT 2: Sting Ray makes him do only a standard oir move action per round for five rounds. However will save per round to break.

tyckspoon
2010-06-06, 08:01 PM
Sorcerer, eh. That hurts- 3rd level spells are the power-break you need to really ensure your victory over 4 levels worth of HP, saves, and especially wealth. Hmm.. if you can acquire +2 CL in some way, you could cast Scorching Ray with 2 rays, which is probably the best damage output you could hope for at the level.

It's a shame that pretty much all the best spells you might use are Fort saves- Blindness/Deafness, Shadow Spray.. hmm.. maybe Backbiter, if you don't mind choosing a spell that most Sorcerers normally wouldn't bother with. Will save, if it fails, next time he tries to hit you he smacks himself. Would be especially good if he's a well-made charge build.

Oh, here's an idea- the Cloudy Conjuration feat + Hail of Stone as your attacking spell. Every Web and every attack you drop on him creates a 5-foot radius Fog Cloud around him, breaking his line of sight to you and preventing him from trying to charge. This has the downside of making you burn a feat on Spell Focus (Conjuration) to qualify, but that does at least benefit your Webs.

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-06-06, 08:02 PM
Hmm. I'd bet on the Barbarian, really...

If the Barbarian spends his WBL wisely, he may beat the sorcerer. If the sorcerer at least uses Loredrake, then that begins to tip the scales back to his favor. Having 4th level spells from both Loredrake and Spell-Hoarding means joys like Black Tentacles and Solid Fog to further ruin the Barbarian's day.

For extra cheese fun, try to also go Shadowcraft Mage with the above set-up to spam any Evocation Spell or Conjuration (Summoning, Creation) at over 100% reality of at least spell levels you can cast. With some work, you may also be able to get up to 6th level spells, but you might not have the feats for it open.

EDIT:


Oh, here's an idea- the Cloudy Conjuration feat + Hail of Stone as your attacking spell. Every Web and every attack you drop on him creates a 5-foot radius Fog Cloud around him, breaking his line of sight to you and preventing him from trying to charge. This has the downside of making you burn a feat on Spell Focus (Conjuration) to qualify, but that does at least benefit your Webs.

Actually, Cloudy Conjuration causes no-save nausea for fun and profit, so it's Fog Cloud+.

Keld Denar
2010-06-06, 08:04 PM
Levitate + Fell Draining Sonic Snap.

Level drain him down to level 1 and then melee him to death. It would be epic.

If you need more spell slots, make your race Silverbrow Human and take Practical Metamagic so you can blast Fell Draining Sonic Snaps from your 1st level slots.

Prodan
2010-06-06, 08:08 PM
And Versatile Spellcaster.

tyckspoon
2010-06-06, 08:11 PM
For extra cheese fun, try to also go Shadowcraft Mage with the above set-up to spam any Evocation Spell or Conjuration (Summoning, Creation) at over 100% reality of at least spell levels you can cast. With some work, you may also be able to get up to 6th level spells, but you might not have the feats for it open.

I'm pretty sure that needs more than 5 levels.

I think even as just a straight Sorcerer 5 he has a fair chance, but he needs to be certain he gets to take an action. To that end, I would suggest purchasing a scroll of Mirror Image (or taking it as a spell known, but a 5th level sorcerer doesn't have a lot of spells to spare) and using it as your buff round. Should keep the Sorcerer alive long enough to drop a Cloudy Conjuration/Web and open some space, even if the Barbarian wins initiative.

Edit response

Actually, Cloudy Conjuration causes no-save nausea for fun and profit, so it's Fog Cloud+.
Only Sickened, unfortunately, which is a lot weaker; Nauseated does action denial, Sickened just penalizes a bunch of rolls. It's mostly good as a debuff that comes along with any summoned creatures you bring into the fight; since it only lasts one turn and ends when the target moves out of the cloud, our Sorcerer here can't even make use of the saving-throw penalty. Unless one of you guys knows a really cheesy way to Quicken spells that he can use.

Starbuck_II
2010-06-06, 08:13 PM
I say Power Word Fatigue and Pain for 1st.
Wings of Cover is a good 2nd lv, but only blocks 1 attack. But only 1st attack has good chance to hit. Not even that if we exhaust him.

Since Fatigue stacks and no save. 2 casting of PW: F= Exhausted.

Then he can't do much for a few rounds while taking damage each round.

Prodan
2010-06-06, 08:14 PM
I'm pretty sure that needs more than 5 levels.

I think even as just a straight Sorcerer 5 he has a fair chance, but he needs to be certain he gets to take an action. To that end, I would suggest purchasing a scroll of Mirror Image (or taking it as a spell known, but a 5th level sorcerer doesn't have a lot of spells to spare) and using it as your buff round. Should keep the Sorcerer alive long enough to drop a Cloudy Conjuration/Web and open some space, even if the Barbarian wins initiative.

Take the Improved Init. feat, pump dex, use a wand of Nerveskitter?

PId6
2010-06-06, 08:16 PM
5th level sorcerer is tough, since without massive cheese, you won't have access to 3rd level spells. Make sure you cast Alter Self into something with flight, since he (likely) won't have a source of flight, he'll have to recourse to archery, which means a lot less damage to you. Protection From Arrows may be enough to stop that if he didn't bring along a magic bow/arrow. A wizard would unfortunately do significantly better here unless you're willing to pull Kobold Loredrake cheese, but oh well.

You'll want some scrolls or wands. A scroll of Solid Fog can do wonders. Take Lesser Orb of Acid, Versatile Spellcaster, Heighten Spell, and Acidic Splatter. This lets you have infinite orbs of acid each with 15 ft range and dealing 3d6 damage, which will eventually kill him as long as you can disable him. Alternatively, you can take Scorching Ray and Fiery Burst, which allows a save but has longer range. It also lets you shoot into fogs where you can't see.

Honestly though, with his WBL and your limitations, a 9th level barbarian will likely win if played correctly unless you cheese out. Magic items can counter most of your tactics, and you didn't have many to begin with. However, with the right cheese (Loredrake), it becomes significantly easier to win.

Oh, and if you start out within charging range for some reason, make sure your familiar is standing in front of you. :smallamused:

Quietus
2010-06-06, 08:54 PM
Embarass him, utterly. Grab a scroll of Alter Self, and use it to turn into a troglodyte. Use Mage Armor, and Shield. Those alone give you an AC of 24; Toss some dex on that and you're looking at 26-27. He'll have around 9 base, 20 strength (+5), +1 on weapon, and possibly +2 from rage, so he's adding 17 to his attacks. That's a 50% chance of missing you, when he's raging, and not power attacking. Not too shabby.

Feats : Sudden Maximize, Spell Focus Conjuration, Greater Spell Focus Conjuration.

Spells known : First level, mage armor, shield, ray of enfeeblement, reduce person. Second level, Web and Summon Swarm.

Your route in this fight : Embarass him. Have a few riding dogs taught to Guard. They stand between you and him, and block his line of charge. You start the fight with Mage Armor up, and Alter Self'ed into a troglodyte. Your first action : Drop a Web on him. Then cast Summon Swarm, on top of the poor, sticky barbarian. This slows him down, and lets you cast Shield, then Ray of Enfeeblement, sudden maximized. -8 to his strength drops his attack significantly, making it 70% likely he misses you - when he's raged, and not power attacking. Also, if you've done this right, and he already raged, then his time toward fatigue (and all the penalties that come with it) is ticking away. And those spiders are steadily doing nibbling bits of damage to him. After you've cast those two spells, your concentration will be out, so re-cast web if necessary, and Summon Swarm... and just sit there concentrating. Let his anger wear itself out, let the spiders gnaw on him, and be sure to enforce both fortitude saves every round, 'cause 1d3 strength damage and nausea are nothing pleasant.

Dilb
2010-06-06, 10:21 PM
Web isn't that great, as it first requires you to be fighting in an area that you can anchor the webs to (else the webs don't do anything), and when it works, 5 feet of web provides cover (hurting your chance of hitting him with anything, and letting him hide), and 20 feet of web (i.e. directly targeting him) provides total cover, at which point the barbarian can make strength checks to get of the web at his leisure. Lighting the web on fire simply means he's then free to shoot/charge you on his turn. If he's only at the edge, he can just shoot you, taking the 20% miss chance as a small penalty, or break free pretty easily.

Protection from arrows is worthless (if the barbarian isn't an idiot, anyway), as he only needs a +1 bow to negate it. If you alter self into something that can fly, you'd better fly far away, and fast. With a +1 Composite Longbow, the barbarian is doing at least 1d8 + 5 damage, against your ~29 or so HP, for an average of about 3 attacks or 2 full attacks, unless you take measures to pump your AC or get a miss chance. Even then, that should no more than double the time he needs to kill you by shooting.

If the barbarian happens to invest in a flying mount, like a griffon, or a figurine of wondrous power of a griffon, then even flying isn't going to save you (griffons have fly 80 ft, and pretty good saves), and with max ride ranks he can ride it and fight without a saddle.

The first thing to do would be buy a scroll of greater invisibility, and hope he doesn't get some source of see invisible (for example, a hand of glory is within WBL for him). Then get flying, or a source of really fast movement. Then spam scrolls and hope he doesn't find you. Strictly speaking, at level 5 WBL you can only afford level 1 wands, as a level 2 wand is more than a third your WBL (I think that's a rule, anyway).

I'd recommend against anything that gives him cover, like solid fog. You need to kill him fast, before your buffs run out, and you can't afford anything that makes him harder to hit, either by boosting his AC or giving him a miss chance. Even if he's not flying and you're pelting him with medium range spells (such as magic missile) it's only -2 to hit for him.

Quietus, better hope the barb doesn't have a flaming/frost/shocking weapon, as nothing about web stops him from attacking. Even 1d6 damage kills a 9 HP swarm pretty darn fast.

balistafreak
2010-06-06, 10:26 PM
I generally concur with Dilb's analysis, except for this bit:


Lighting the web on fire simply means he's then free to shoot/charge you on his turn.

Doesn't it take a full-round action to burn 5 feet of web? (RAW doesn't make it clear if the web continues to burn by itself. Hmmm. :smallconfused:) With the 20 foot-radius centered on him, he'd have to burn at least two squares, more likely three or four, to get free. You'd lock him down for some time, but not enough to score a kill in.

lsfreak
2010-06-06, 10:31 PM
You'll need a way to boost initiative, if there's any chance of him being in charge range from the get-go. Grab Nerveskitter as a 1st-level spell.

Other than that, I agree with Keld. Fell Draining magic missiles and sonic snap. Fit in Versatile Spellcaster too, if you can, since you'll be able to convert your 0th level spells into something worthwhile then too. If you want to speed it up, there's a swift-action, 1/CL spell in one of the online Faerun articles that could be used in conjunction with the ACF to trade your familiar for faster metamagic.

PW:P works too, it's just considered borderline overpowered, which you really don't need for this experiment. Fell Draining PW:P is ridiculously funny if your DM rules that negatives levels happen repeatedly, which can be combined with the suggestion of Greater Invis scrolls if you're worried Levitate or a scroll of fly won't be enough to keep you away.

Acero
2010-06-06, 10:36 PM
Scorching Ray for damage. I believe its 4d6. That's plenty

Dilb
2010-06-06, 10:41 PM
I generally concur with Dilb's analysis, except for this bit:



Doesn't it take a full-round action to burn 5 feet of web? (RAW doesn't make it clear if the web continues to burn by itself. Hmmm. :smallconfused:) With the 20 foot-radius centered on him, he'd have to burn at least two squares, more likely three or four, to get free. You'd lock him down for some time, but not enough to score a kill in.

Maybe, but:
1) If he fails the save (not a given, but pretty likely), he is entangled and can't move. Nothing about not attacking. It's a DC 20 STR check to be able to move, at which point he is (still) entangled: slow movement, -2 to hit, -4 to DEX, but still attacking anything in reach.
2) Once 'freed' (but still entangled), it's a DC (10 + feet moved) STR check to move: unless he's amazingly unlucky, he can either get total cover or get outside the web in a couple of rounds.

And wow, PW:P is ridiculous. Although for this fight, you'd better be careful, as the barbarian could have over 100 HP while raging. Some other spells to soften him up first may be called for.

lsfreak
2010-06-06, 10:42 PM
Scorching Ray for damage. I believe its 4d6. That's plenty

Scorching Ray averages 14 damage a hit. A barbarian with 16Con pre-rage and average rolls for hit points has 91 hit points; that's an average of 7 casts to drop him. That's not a reliable way of dispatching the barbarian, because god forbid you roll low on damage and end up running out of spells.

herrhauptmann
2010-06-06, 11:22 PM
Grease will shut him down during a rage.
Caltrops will slow him down period, and deal minor damage as well.
Purchase scrolls of 3rd and higher level spells. You won't be able to get away with infinite loops in that manner, but it will provide you with enough direct damage, and save or lose/die spells.
When he's almost out of your web, cast a flaming sphere behind him, or better yet, a wall of fire in front(minimum damage of 2d4+2d6+7.). With the wall, you're now forcing him to circle around before he can hit you, which could give you an extra round to cast a spell. You could also make the wall a circle with hot side pointing inwards 10 feet across. Would he take the 2d4 fire damage multiple times? If so, that could be win for you, especially if he's stuck in a grease spell.

A scroll of suggestion. Technically you win at that point, because you've now got at least 5 hours. You could make a reasonable suggestion for him to drink a cask of ale, that's a -1 or 2 on his save. Poison the ale before combat. Even if he makes his save (he probably will), he's still DRUNK, and unless he's a drunken master, will be easy prey in combat.
If you know he's going to play a dwarf, grab the 'good aligned poisons' (whatever their name is) in BoED. Since they're not 'poison,' a dwarf won't get his +2 racial bonus.

Bosh
2010-06-06, 11:33 PM
You've got to deal with the possibility that he might charge you before you can do anything, so you must must must must must must must have some way to avoid you getting one hit killed by a charge and/or godlike initiative. How much do you know about the location that you're fighting in and what your starting position will be. If you're fighting in a 10x10 room or if you're starting at opposite ends of a big open field that makes a HUGE difference.

PId6
2010-06-06, 11:36 PM
Grease will shut him down during a rage.
Oh, right. This.

Yeah, Grease is a very good investment when your opponent doesn't know how to Balance while raging. :smalltongue:

Edit: Charges can be beaten easily if you make something stand between you before the battle. Buy a wagon, a guard dog, or use your familiar if necessary.

Dilb
2010-06-06, 11:57 PM
Barbarians can still use balance while raging. Depending on how heavy his armour is, even without ranks in balance he still should have about a 50/50 chance of balancing his way out of the grease. Even if he fails his reflex save (3 + Dex + maybe lightning reflexes vs 15 or 16, about a 50/50 shot) he can still stand up and attempt to move every round.

Alternatively, he can stand up and attempt a standing jump, which is only DC 10 to move 5 feet out of the grease spell. It effects a 10 foot square, after all.

Alternatively alternatively, he can crawl 5ft as a move action, with no chance of failure.

He might just stand up (move action, no chance of failure) and shoot a bow (you're within 50 feet to be able to cast grease), and then accept falling down on the next reflex save, which is on the sorcerers turn.

PId6
2010-06-07, 12:05 AM
Barbarians can still use balance while raging. Depending on how heavy his armour is, even without ranks in balance he still should have about a 50/50 chance of balancing his way out of the grease. Even if he fails his reflex save (3 + Dex + maybe lightning reflexes vs 15 or 16, about a 50/50 shot) he can still stand up and attempt to move every round.
Ah, never mind. Remembered it wrong; Balance is one of the exceptions to Rage.

Flickerdart
2010-06-07, 12:26 AM
Is the Barbarian building specifically for this duel? They don't get Balance as a class skill, so he might not have any ranks. If he does, Grease his weapons out of his hands, reducing his ability to do anything even if he does get to you.

Ernir
2010-06-07, 04:23 PM
Mattman, I just whipped out what I think of as a very standard (that is adventure-ready, not PvP-built) Barbarian, using the limitation you gave in the OP. Shoot me a PM if you want a test run before you go against your friend.

Here's the statblock, unless you and your friend are peeking at each other's sheets pre-battle, I suggest you don't look at what's under this spoiler.Human Barbarian 9
HP: 91 (12+8d12+3x9)
Ability Scores: Str 20 (24 in Whirling Frenzy), Dex 14, Con 16, Wis 12, Int 10, Cha 8
AC/Touch/FF: 17/11/15 (+2 vs. ranged, +2 in Whirling Frenzy)
F/R/W saves: +10/+6 (+2 in Whirling Frenzy)/+5

Class Features:
Pounce [Spirit Lion Totem substitution]
Illiteracy
Whirling Frenzy 3/day [UA variant]
Improved Trip, Track feats [Wolf Totem Barbarian substitution]
DR 1/-

Feats:
Power Attack [1]
Improved Bull Rush [Human]
EWP: Spiked Chain [Flaw: Inattentive]
Combat Reflexes [Flaw: Vulnerable]
Improved Trip [Wolf Totem Barbarian 2]
Knock-Down [3]
Track [Wolf Totem Barbarian 5]
Leap Attack [6]
Shock Trooper [9]

Skills:
Balance 5 ranks (CC)
Jump 12 ranks
Survival 12 ranks
Listen 12 ranks
Intimidate 12 ranks
Ride 2 ranks

Gear:
Boots of Speed [12000]
Bow of the Wintermoon [3400] (MIC) with Crystal of Return, least [300] (MIC)
Corsair's Eyepatch [3000] (MIC)
Spiked Chain +1 [2325] with Crystal of Life Drinking, least [400] (MIC)
Spiked Chain [25]
Gauntlets of Ogre Power [4000]
Mind Armor Breastplate +1 [4350] (MIC) with Crystal of Arrow Deflection, least [300] (MIC)
Medal of Steadfast Honor [1500] (MIC)
Cloak of Resistance +1 [1000]
Healing Belt [750] (MIC)

Potion of Fly [750]
Potion of Enlarge Person x2 [50x2]
Potion of Invisibility [300]
Stench Stone [300] (MIC)
Daylight Pellet [150] (MIC)
Silversheen [250]
Quaal's Feather Token: Tree [400]

200 GP, which I really can't be arsed to spend on mundane stuff.

herrhauptmann
2010-06-07, 08:17 PM
Barbarians can still use balance while raging. Depending on how heavy his armour is, even without ranks in balance he still should have about a 50/50 chance of balancing his way out of the grease. Even if he fails his reflex save (3 + Dex + maybe lightning reflexes vs 15 or 16, about a 50/50 shot) he can still stand up and attempt to move every round.

Sorry, I was thinking of frenzy. Which allows no skill checks period if I remember correctly.

Wolf Warhead
2010-06-07, 08:50 PM
(I'm not an expert, so take everything I say with a grain of salt.)

Another spell to stop him from charging you in case of an emergency: Blockade from the Complete Scoundrel. It's a level 1 swift spell that creates a 5x5x5foot block of wood. He cast walk around it, yes, but at least he can't charge. If you use save-or-suck spells and he makes his save, this baby might help out.

On the other hand, it does cost you a valuable spell, so...

Also, Elemental Dart from Dragonlance might be nice spell. Level 2 and, at level 5, does 3d6+15 damage, although it does allow a fortitude save for half damage.

Entice gift was suggested to take his weapon. Main problem with it is that IF it succeeds, the barbarian is going to try and get it back... Perhaps a Dimensional Hop for that? (What was the weight limit on Catapult Item?)

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-06-07, 08:56 PM
Once you make him helpless, use a weapon with a x4 modifier to CDG him into oblivion.

Also, Lesser x Orb does way more damage than Magic Missile would. Doesn't matter which one, since he won't have any elemental resistances at this level. You can probably end up cranking out CL 10 for 10d6 a shot. Simply use Glitterdust to blind him first and blast away.

Prodan
2010-06-07, 08:58 PM
Lesser Orb deals at most 5d8 damage.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-06-07, 08:59 PM
Lesser Orb deals at most 5d8 damage.

I thought they did 1d6/cl max 10d6

The Glyphstone
2010-06-07, 09:05 PM
Lessers are 1d8/2 levels, cap 5d8.

Starbuck_II
2010-06-07, 09:06 PM
I thought they did 1d6/cl max 10d6

No, that is 4th level Orb spells (which have a save partial for extra effects)

Draz74
2010-06-07, 09:21 PM
I think the safest tactic is indeed Extended Power Word: Pain. And then avoiding the brute like a coward. Can you afford a Scroll of Otiluke's Resilient Sphere (700 gp)? You could target yourself with it. That's a safer way to buy a few rounds than flight or invisibility.

Fell Drain Sonic Snap is hilarious, but possibly not practical at this level. Then again, it might be. Negative levels are nasty.

Web is indeed either awesome or worthless depending on terrain. Maybe get it in Scroll form? It's not like your actually counting on him failing his save anyway. Likewise, Shivering Touch might be worth getting as a Scroll, just in case you happen to end up in melee range by some unfortunate chance.

Redrat2k6
2010-06-07, 09:24 PM
1)Be a Neraphim http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20040613a&page=2
2) Use Alter Self to change into any outsider.
3) ???
4) Profit

Wolf Warhead
2010-06-07, 09:30 PM
1)Be a Neraphim http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20040613a&page=2
2) Use Alter Self to change into any outsider.
3) ???
4) Profit

Come to think of it, wasn't there a humanoid form with a fly speed? Even without a template, you could turn into it and just stay out of reach.

Edit: Oh, here are my notes. Avarial, 50ft fly speed.

Prodan
2010-06-07, 09:30 PM
Avariel and Raptorans.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-06-07, 09:32 PM
Fell Drain Magic Missile? With feats to reduce metamagic, this might be doable. Need a high CHA score to get 8 negative levels on him...

Fell Drain Acid Arrow works as well, if you can get the LA back down to +0. He's taking negative levels every round. In fact, they probably stack. At first level, he gains one negative level. Then next round he gains an additional one from the first Acid Arrow, then another from the new one... could go down pretty darn quick. Use aforementioned methods of avoiding being turned into a greasy stain.

blueblade
2010-06-07, 09:32 PM
I think you've self-gimped with choice of levels. 5 v 9 favours him, 6 v 10 would favour you.

Course, if you were a wizard, 5 v 9 might have worked out.

Wolf Warhead
2010-06-07, 09:34 PM
Fell Drain Magic Missile? With feats to reduce metamagic, this might be doable. Need a high CHA score to get 8 negative levels on him...

Fell Drain Acid Arrow works as well, if you can get the LA back down to +0. He's taking negative levels every round. In fact, they probably stack. At first level, he gains one negative level. Then next round he gains an additional one from the first Acid Arrow, then another from the new one... could go down pretty darn quick. Use aforementioned methods of avoiding being turned into a greasy stain.

Arcane Thesis is my forbidden lover.

lsfreak
2010-06-07, 09:54 PM
Arcane Thesis is my forbidden lover.

Unfortunately, requires too many skill ranks for this build.

I still say Rod-Extended Fell Drain Power Word: Pain is the nastiest combination of things that's come up. It'll be best once you get his hit points down a bit, to below 50, so that it's lasting 2d4x2 rounds with a negative level each round.

Beorn080
2010-06-07, 09:57 PM
I think Acid Arrow alone is a good bet. One Orange Ioun stone puts him at CL6, which means each arrow does 6d4 Acid damage. ACID. Don't target the guy, hit his weapon. Acid ignores hardness, so you stand a VERY good shot of smashing his damage. I'd go something like this.

Buff: Truestrike
1st round: Acid Arrow at Greataxe.

Going by the Table in the SRD, at most it has 20 HP, closer to 10 more likely. 2d4 over 3 rounds will almost always break it by the 3rd round. You should be able to stay away for that long.

Demons_eye
2010-06-07, 09:59 PM
Am I thinking wrong or Orange ioun stones are like 60k? 30k

Beorn080
2010-06-07, 10:10 PM
True. Whats the Wealth by level for a 5th again. I can never remember where those charts are.

lsfreak
2010-06-07, 10:13 PM
True. Whats the Wealth by level for a 5th again. I can never remember where those charts are.

Page 134 of the DMG. They cost a little over triple your WBL at level 5.

Zovc
2010-06-07, 10:19 PM
Can we not just repeatedly try to make the Barbarian helpless and then make a Coupe de Grace?

Oh, wait, I'm thinking of level 1 tactics.

Beorn080
2010-06-07, 10:25 PM
Technically, if you destroy his great axe, he isn't helpless, merely hopeless.

Zaq
2010-06-07, 10:46 PM
Levitate + Fell Draining Sonic Snap.

Level drain him down to level 1 and then melee him to death. It would be epic.

If you need more spell slots, make your race Silverbrow Human and take Practical Metamagic so you can blast Fell Draining Sonic Snaps from your 1st level slots.

I love Fell X Sonic Snap. I prefer Fell Frighten, though, because then any other source of fear will have the mighty barbarian running and screaming for a rather long time (quite long enough for you to pull whatever other tricks you have in mind). Also, I don't think you'll have enough spell slots without your Silverbrow Human trick, but that would indeed work.

dextercorvia
2010-06-07, 10:55 PM
No Practical Metamagic until 6th without cheese.

okpokalypse
2010-06-07, 11:03 PM
a L5 Sorcerer can have a 16 UMD Check for Scrolls pretty easily.

Take a Scroll of Fly. Force Cage and Cloudkill. All within the WBL. None can mishap because of the min check. Just get the fly off then keep trying to Force Cage. Once that goes off, Cloudkill and it's over.

Lysander
2010-06-07, 11:08 PM
Cast fog cloud. He needs to see you to know where to attack. You DON'T need to see him to cast spells based on line of effect.

Use levitate to float high off the ground in the fog cloud, using a wand with a LoE attack spell to chip away at his health.

Dilb
2010-06-08, 12:40 AM
a L5 Sorcerer can have a 16 UMD Check for Scrolls pretty easily.

Take a Scroll of Fly. Force Cage and Cloudkill. All within the WBL. None can mishap because of the min check. Just get the fly off then keep trying to Force Cage. Once that goes off, Cloudkill and it's over.

Eh, slight problem there. Cloudkill moves away from you at 10 feet per round, and no, flying in a circle won't solve that (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/cloudkill.htm):

Figure out the cloud’s new spread each round based on its new point of origin, which is 10 feet farther away from the point of origin where you cast the spell.

Because the vapors are heavier than air, they sink to the lowest level of the land, even pouring down den or sinkhole openings. It cannot penetrate liquids, nor can it be cast underwater.

Unless the barbarian is stuck in an airtight (on the bottom) hole, he shouldn't suffer more than 3d4 CON damage, and more likely 2d4, with some of it halved as he has a pretty good chance to make his Fort save. A potion of delay poison makes him immune to poison, and thus to cloudkill (which is not poison, just something that fails to work against things immune to poison, and thus not delayed, but negated entirely), and is both cheap and works for hours. If that seems unreasonable, he can also drink a potion of neutralize poison at whatever later time is convenient. Once the cloudkill clears away, the barbarian is free to shoot you with a bow at his leisure (and 100 feet range increment). Even spending all the rest of your money on cloudkills (which would be 4 scrolls), it's not guaranteed to be enough if the barbarian has lucky rolls.

mattman238
2010-06-09, 06:07 PM
Hey I wanted to thank everyone for alot of great suggestions. Trying to cover all my bases proved imposssible with 9k wealth and the limits of a 2nd level max. But here is how it played out,
We started out 80 ft apart (rolled randomly) on a flat plane.
I won init thanks to a dagger of warning (MIC pg 46), nerveskitter (SC pg 146) and a high dex (24 vs 18).
I had mage armor up as an all day buff and used my one round of prep for an alter self to a Ravid (MM213). The DM ruled that I could cast spells with this form, if he had ruled differently I would have choosen a mephit with perfect maneuverability. It wouldn't have made a difference.
He buffed with an potion of invisibility.
The first round I flew straight up and cast see invisibility. It was ruled that I would not know what buffs he had put on himself and was not sure which exact area he was in, so I could not target the square he was in with glitterdust.
He moved his character and cast darkness on himself using a magic rod from the MIC.
Second round I glitterdusted the area in the darkness. He made his save but was now "visible". I also moved to stay at the safe distance as I was not sure what he had up his sleeve (WBL can make a huge difference).
His turn he moved and started to levitate to my lofty height.
At this point I was fairly certian he was mine and targeted him with a fell drained sonic snap. He argued that the darkness made it difficult for me to target him with the spell. The DM ruled that the darkness would not stop me from targeting him with the spell. He then gracefully conceded the match, and that was the end of it.
Thank you Giant in the playground for all the suggestions and hints, just going through the suggested builds was entertainment by itself.

-Matt

Prodan
2010-06-09, 06:10 PM
Sonic Snap requires no attack roll, so you only need to see the person to affect him.

Excellent spell for Fell Drainage.

Dilb
2010-06-09, 08:35 PM
15 natural armour and fly 60 ft with perfect manoeuvrability at 3HD...

So you're a neraphim or something? How did you have enough fell draining to kill him?

Beorn080
2010-06-09, 08:48 PM
The barb should have bought an eversmoking bottle. Useful little sucker.

Merk
2010-06-09, 09:36 PM
Technically, if you destroy his great axe, he isn't helpless, merely hopeless.

Oh hell. Now I want to see the barbarian win. With his fists. Without Improved Unarmed Strike.

senrath
2010-06-09, 11:01 PM
15 natural armour and fly 60 ft with perfect manoeuvrability at 3HD...

So you're a neraphim or something? How did you have enough fell draining to kill him?

He didn't. The barb surrendered after the first fell drain.

JaxGaret
2010-06-09, 11:30 PM
He moved his character and cast darkness on himself using a magic rod from the MIC.

Seriously? Darkness?

What a waste of an action.

NecroRebel
2010-06-10, 12:26 AM
Seriously? Darkness?

What a waste of an action.

Perhaps he expected the sorceror to cast Magic Missile at it? :smallsmile:

mattman238
2010-06-10, 04:52 PM
Senrath- I had versatile spellcaster as a feat. With my Charisma score of 19 giving me a slight boost that would enable me to fell drain him dowm to 1st level and finish him off with a light xbow or a sleep spell.

Draz74
2010-06-10, 05:11 PM
Oh hell. Now I want to see the barbarian win. With his fists. Without Improved Unarmed Strike.

I do think that Grappling tends to be the best tactic for low-level Barbarians in arena situations ...

preferably wielding +1 Vicious Armor Spikes