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jiriku
2010-06-06, 09:14 PM
Playgrounders, can you share your stories with me of how you've successfully dealt with player cheating in the past?

Brief story: Player 1 approached me some time back with the claim that Player 2 was cheating. I agreed to deal with the issue, but preferred to collect evidence first since I didn't want the problem to dissolve into a "my word vs. his word" argument.

While I can't see what Player 2 is rolling, for the past month I've been recording his die rolls based on what he reports to me. Being a data analyst by trade, I charted the results. If you like numbers-geekery, take a look.

http://i846.photobucket.com/albums/ab24/gallopinggiraffes/cheatpic.jpg

After 118 rolls, every number from 1-12 has shown up a below-average number of times, and every number from 13-20 has shown up an above-average number of times. Which means the cheater and I are going to have a conversation.

However, I don't want to kick him out. The group is small and closely knit, if I eject him, the group is likely to disintigrate, and that means no more D&D for me.

So, tell me your tales of how you've solved these sorts of problems in the past! I'd like to salvage this situation in a way that keeps us all gaming together.

Drakevarg
2010-06-06, 09:16 PM
Are you sure he's cheating? It might just be that what he thought was his "lucky die" turned out to be poorly manufactured in such a way that results in higher rolls.

Magdela
2010-06-06, 09:16 PM
Simple, make him roll in front of all of you.

Alternatively, make an announcement to all your players that cheating is not appreciated and that it's more fun in partaking in ridiculous adventures than rolling well.

Edit: Also, make him use YOUR CHOICE of dice, his may be weighted.

PId6
2010-06-06, 09:27 PM
I've seen two players I play with cheat before, but I never really minded that much. One of the was cheating at die rolls and the other one was doing a few things that were blatantly against the rules, but both of these were relatively minor and actually helped balance the group a bit more (most of us were heavy optimizers while these two were not). My advice: as long as he's being subtle about it, he isn't getting too much of an unfair advantage, and the other players don't notice/don't mind too much, it shouldn't be that big of a problem.

That said, if he is overdoing it or the other players do mind, then you should definitely have a one on one talk with him. Find out why he's cheating. It could be that he feels he's weak compared to the rest of the group, in which case you can let him rebuild and/or teach him how to optimize better. It could be that he feels like he rolls badly too often, so you can tell him to take Luck feats or be a cleric with the Pride domain (this is assuming 3.5; if it's another system, there's likely its own versions of the same). Be direct, but not too confrontational or accusatory, and find out what is wrong.

Dracons
2010-06-06, 09:28 PM
Pretty simple answer dude, and I'm shocked you don't do it as a DM.


Have him, get this... this may be a shock and unheard of to you, but


Roll in front of you. Have all players roll in front of you, to see there rolls.

I know, major shock. Being a DM means you get to watch their rolls, to make sure that there is no shock.



Because you kinda screwed up, and no real proof he is lying about his proofs other then odds, and come on, we're players. We've all seens dice rolls and plans that statistically, should have failed but didn't. So no yelling. Just flat out state that for now on, all dice rolls are to be made in front of everyone. (With exception of yours, you can hide it0.

AmusingSN
2010-06-06, 09:29 PM
Sometimes ignorance is bliss.

Do you really care that he's cheating? There are no winners in D&D and if nobody else has noticed or seems upset, then maybe you should keep your mouth shut and let him keep cheating.

I never really understood why people would want to cheat at D&D anyway. And equally so, I don't really understand why anyone would care if someone else cheated.

We have a house rule that simplifies the whole cheating issue:

"Cheating is allowed."

Dracons
2010-06-06, 09:31 PM
Sometimes ignorance is bliss.

Do you really care that he's cheating? There are no winners in D&D and if nobody else has noticed or seems upset, then maybe you should keep your mouth shut and let him keep cheating.

I never really understood why people would want to cheat at D&D anyway. And equally so, I don't really understand why anyone would care if someone else cheated.

We have a house rule that simplifies the whole cheating issue:

"Cheating is allowed."

Sweeeeeeeet. I have the magic power that automatically makes me pass all rolls, and all rolls and plans against me fail. I took that. As a feat. But it's a special feat that can only be used one time by a single player per campagin, and I took it.

balistafreak
2010-06-06, 09:31 PM
Are you sure he's cheating? It might just be that what he thought was his "lucky die" turned out to be poorly manufactured in such a way that results in higher rolls.

This is more likely than you probably think it is. Someone did an empirical test involving thousands of rolls repeated in several distinct sets of Games Workshop manufactured dice and found that due to their construction the results were heavily skewed towards a certain number - 1 or 6, can't remember which one.

Also, 118 results isn't that much for a d20 - each distinct number is expected to come up about 5 times. From your table, it seems you got no more than three times the expected result from the dice, which in my opinion falls within acceptable limits.

That being said, the fact that a player confronted you about the situation is worrisome.

Wait - much more worrisome:

YOU CAN'T SEE HIS DIE ROLLS?!?!?!?!?!?!

Excuse me, but every sense of integrity I have as a DM just cried out in agony right then right there. I do transparent rolls - no DM screen for me, at least not for the sake of rolls (I basically end up with a screen due to all the materials that surround my seat but I always throw dice on the player's side of it). Players likewise drop the dice where everyone can see it.

Just change this policy and stop the problem at the source.

PersonMan
2010-06-06, 09:33 PM
In a card game called Mad I occasionally play there's a rule about cheating: If you can get away with it, good!

Basically, unless it messes up party balance/the campaign or whatever it's fine.

Also, with your example he may just have an unbalanced die.

PId6
2010-06-06, 09:34 PM
Sweeeeeeeet. I have the magic power that automatically makes me pass all rolls, and all rolls and plans against me fail. I took that. As a feat. But it's a special feat that can only be used one time by a single player per campagin, and I took it.
Pun Pun shoots you dead, no save.

Private-Prinny
2010-06-06, 09:35 PM
Sweeeeeeeet. I have the magic power that automatically makes me pass all rolls, and all rolls and plans against me fail. I took that. As a feat. But it's a special feat that can only be used one time by a single player per campagin, and I took it.

That was errata'd in this Notepad document I just wrote up. It says that I can take it too.

Escheton
2010-06-06, 09:36 PM
DMG-doken

Or nerf him in the same way as a vestige does everytime you or another player catch him(unlikely)

Roll for him if he does not want to roll in front of the group.

Take away feats and replace them with luckfeats, if he is really bent on rolling well.

DaTedinator
2010-06-06, 09:45 PM
I'd agree with the general sentiment of just having all rolls occur in the open.

Coidzor
2010-06-06, 09:55 PM
All character sheets are required to be submitted in triplicate at every level-up. One is checked and then returned to the player, one is put into the archive, and one is used to generate a cheat-sheet to know the player's capabilities at a glance.

All rolls are to be made on the open table in front of the DM and other players, and rolled on an open space, floor and crack rolls are rerolled, and if online, made through a dice rolling website or forum utility if there's no ability to roll in the medium we're communicating through.

Those are the anti-cheating measures I've seen most often used and seem to be a good idea in general anyway.

Is just better to be proactive about preventing outlets for it than to have to actually punish someone who gives into temptation that was allowed a place to do it.

Kylarra
2010-06-06, 10:00 PM
Just use a dice tower or something that forces rolls in the open. 118 trials for a 20 sided dice is hardly empirical evidence, albeit somewhat suspicious.

Kaun
2010-06-06, 10:00 PM
I put a box in the middle of the table and made all player roll into it. Rules were if the dice didnt land in the box it dodnt count.

That way the other players could watch the rolls if they wanted and questions the outcome.

ie: "36?!?!?! you rolled a 12, how do you have a bonus of 24?!?!?"

that cut things down a lot, getting the players to police their own a bit.

I did catch one player in the act using a dice with two 20's on it and no 1. I just told him to stop being a **** head and wiped his exp for the session.

drengnikrafe
2010-06-06, 10:30 PM
ie: "36?!?!?! you rolled a 12, how do you have a bonus of 24?!?!?"

With a little help from the DM. (http://www.wizards.com/global/images/rpga_hq_polyffs5_picMain_en.gif)

On a more serious note, I handle player cheating with a verbal slap on the wrist. Winning isn't everything, and even if it was, there are better ways to get to that means. Sure having 6 18s can be fun, but how many times? What about the ramifications in the roleplaying? Make sure they know what they're doing.

If they continue, I warn them more sternly. If they don't quit, I kick them out.

Dark Herald
2010-06-06, 10:39 PM
Sweeeeeeeet. I have the magic power that automatically makes me pass all rolls, and all rolls and plans against me fail. I took that. As a feat. But it's a special feat that can only be used one time by a single player per campagin, and I took it.

That wouldn't be any fun. I mean, that's obviously sarcasm, but even that feat wouldn't be worth worrying about. A player who makes that feat up will probably take it back in a few minutes anyways if nobody said anythiung

Curmudgeon
2010-06-06, 10:53 PM
A d20 big enough for everybody to read will probably take care of the problem.

http://24.media.tumblr.com/cRz3cyPWCr09hja7xcRBQvxso1_400.jpg

PId6
2010-06-06, 10:54 PM
A d20 big enough for everybody to read will probably take care of the problem.
I have just realized what my life's dream is.

Tanuki Tales
2010-06-06, 10:58 PM
Just to add into this, rolling good most of the time is not a sign of cheating. I'm in a group with a player who I've watched roll natural 20 after natural 20 all the time. He probably rolls 20s more often than any other number (yet to go to the extreme of recording to see the percentages).

And no, he doesn't use a loaded die, I provided or bought all the dice our group uses and we've made him switch dice multiple times.

Coidzor
2010-06-06, 11:18 PM
I have just realized what my life's dream is.

To get the expansion power IRL?

Safety Sword
2010-06-06, 11:22 PM
Easy fix: If PCs can cheat, so can NPCs.

Players soon learn that it's in their best interests to play by the rules.

Note: As a DM, I cheat on a regular basis, but I'm allowed to :P

Eloi
2010-06-06, 11:24 PM
Easy fix: If PCs can cheat, so can NPCs.

Players soon learn that it's in their best interests to play by the rules.

Note: As a DM, I cheat on a regular basis, but I'm allowed to :P

My way of cheating for powerful NPCs (such as the main antagonist) is:
Anything less than a ten is re-rolled until its >10.

GoodbyeSoberDay
2010-06-06, 11:31 PM
1. Can I get the numbers that generated that chart? I'd like to run some tests for significance.

2. What is the medium of play? I doubt it's in-person, as the simple solution (rolling in the open) hasn't been considered, and you're able to get away with recording die roll results without the suspected cheater knowing about it. Most online games I know of can *at least* use the Invisible Castle roller.

I'll also note that some players don't like dice-fudging DMs...

sambo.
2010-06-06, 11:31 PM
1: get them to roll all dice on the table, in front of everyone, every time.

2: test all dice used by all players (and yourself) in front of the whole group.

this is a simple procedure, just get a tall glass filled with water. drop each die into the water and watch it as it falls. if the die tumbles around as it's falling, it's fine. it it immediatly switched to the 20 facing up and drops straight down, it's loaded.

many moons ago (during the late 1ed era iirc) the group i was playing with felt a little suspicious of one players dice. we tested everyones dice, in front of everyone, and his die came out loaded.

we insisted he never, ever bring those dice along to our sessions again and that he use our dice until such time as he acquired some fair dice of his own.

drengnikrafe
2010-06-06, 11:32 PM
My way of cheating for powerful NPCs (such as the main antagonist) is:
Anything less than a ten is re-rolled until its >10.

If you want to make less sounds, just add 10 to anything that's rolled and unsatisfactory. It produces similar results, I think. Or roll a d10 and add 10.

Eloi
2010-06-06, 11:35 PM
If you want to make less sounds, just add 10 to anything that's rolled and unsatisfactory. It produces similar results, I think. Or roll a d10 and add 10.

Oh I make my players are aware that the Antagonists Are Cheating Bastards. It gives them OOC character motivation. :smallbiggrin:

PId6
2010-06-06, 11:39 PM
To get the expansion power IRL?
...

Okay, I now know my two greatest life's goals.

Umael
2010-06-06, 11:40 PM
Pardon me for asking this, but how do you know he's cheating?

Maybe the die is (mistakenly) made weighed, flawed in such a way. Maybe the die is lucky. Maybe your player is lucky.

Everything being equal, you have a 5% chance of rolling a 20. That doesn't mean you roll 100,000,000 times and expect 5,000,000 times to have gotten a 20. It means, no matter how many times the die has been rolled, if it is fairly weighed, you have a 5% chance of rolling a 20.

(Of course, after rolling a die 100,000,000 times, there is the very likely chance that the repetition will damage the die enough to cause it to be no longer fairly weighed.)

As others have said, look at his rolls when he rolls.

Also, if you do decide to confront the player, don't mention anything about cheating. Point out the facts and then ask a neutral question. "Hey, Sam? I notice that you've been rolling a lot of higher numbers with that die of yours. 14s, 16s, 19s. Not so much anything 12 or lower. Any idea why that is?"

This gives "Sam" a chance to explain without feeling like he has to be defensive. You might get a "Beats me. I've always been lucky. Casinos hate me.". You might also get a "Yeah, well, I might have fudged a little because I got caught up in the moment, you know. You got a good game going and there were a number of times I really wanted my character to succeed."

As several people have mentioned already, cheating isn't necessarily a bad thing. It usually is, and for good reason, but sometimes it is just a matter of realigning everyone's paradigm.

aivanther
2010-06-06, 11:40 PM
This is more likely than you probably think it is. Someone did an empirical test involving thousands of rolls repeated in several distinct sets of Games Workshop manufactured dice and found that due to their construction the results were heavily skewed towards a certain number - 1 or 6, can't remember which one.


It's 6, since the 1 side is slightly heavier it tends to go down while the 6 turns up. It's not heavily skewed, but it is a statistically significant amount. Hence, when you go to a casino their dice all have the pips filled in to even the weight distribution of the dice.

Sliver
2010-06-06, 11:43 PM
Sweeeeeeeet. I have the magic power that automatically makes me pass all rolls, and all rolls and plans against me fail. I took that. As a feat. But it's a special feat that can only be used one time by a single player per campagin, and I took it.

Sounds like a really fun game. Why not "I win" and be done with it?


My way of cheating for powerful NPCs (such as the main antagonist) is:
Anything less than a ten is re-rolled until its >10.

I just switched ten for cake (and rolled for baked) for no reason.

Anything less than a cake is re-baked until it's > Cake.

Eloi
2010-06-06, 11:44 PM
Sounds like a really fun game. Why not "I win" and be done with it?



I just switched ten for cake (and rolled for baked) for no reason.

Anything less than a cake is re-baked until it's > Cake.

Ah, but you have to roll a Bluff check for Cake.

Coidzor
2010-06-06, 11:49 PM
Say what you will about Cake, I still loves me some short skirt, long jacket (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7aDstrDMf0).:smallamused:

Edit: Link inserted prop'ly this time.

Eloi
2010-06-06, 11:52 PM
Say what you will about Cake, I still loves me some short skirt, long jacket.:smallamused:

I was referencing the "Cake is a Lie" but I have not a clue what you mean.

Aramil369
2010-06-07, 12:09 AM
As a GM your supposed to fudge your rolls. YOUR supposed to make things more interesting. if it would be better for the story if the orc screwed his jump check then so be it. BUT the players... their fate is up to the die. thats how i play my game. im kinda a hard @$$ cause i had a player say "CRITICAL" and quickly grab his die. so i made a dice box that all player rolls are made in. if not they don't count. but that's just me.

GoodbyeSoberDay
2010-06-07, 12:22 AM
I extrapolated the dice roll reports from your graph (then added it up, and it came up 118, so I think I'm right). A simple z test on whether the mean is biased isn't significant, but a chi square goodness of fit test significantly rejects the null hypothesis (that your d20 reports from suspected cheater are generated by a fair d20 roll). HOWEVER, this is mostly due to the fact that there are an absurd number of reported 14s, 16s, and 19s; the low number of low roll reports plays a relatively smaller role. This leads me to believe that you should consider the possibility of an unknowingly-weighted die, although it's still possible your suspected cheater generally chooses one of these three numbers when replacing a low roll. Psychology and heuristics aren't as easy to quantify.

Kaun
2010-06-07, 12:49 AM
Trust in the roll box.

Put it right in the middle of the table were everybody can see and make all your players use it.

When i brought it in my players grumbled a little, (mainly when the dice bounced out and landed on a 20 and wern't counted.) but after a session or two it was second nature to them and the offending players "rolls" have become statisticly more balanced then prior.

Jan Mattys
2010-06-07, 02:44 AM
Wait - much more worrisome:

YOU CAN'T SEE HIS DIE ROLLS?!?!?!?!?!?!

Excuse me, but every sense of integrity I have as a DM just cried out in agony right then right there. I do transparent rolls - no DM screen for me, at least not for the sake of rolls (I basically end up with a screen due to all the materials that surround my seat but I always throw dice on the player's side of it). Players likewise drop the dice where everyone can see it.

Just change this policy and stop the problem at the source.

THIS.
Oh, God, just THIS.

oh, and:

As a GM your supposed to fudge your rolls. YOUR supposed to make things more interesting. if it would be better for the story if the orc screwed his jump check then so be it. BUT the players... their fate is up to the die. thats how i play my game.

This is both true and untrue. I agree that your first priority as a GM is to make things interesting. You're telling a story, directing a movie, you're not supposed to be a puppet in the hands of a fistful of dice.
I DO twist events as a GM. But, I rarely RARELY fudge rolls.
If you need to, you can railroad your players to Mars and back without cheating a single roll as a DM.
Rolling in the open makes them feel like you're fair, while you have about a thousand other ways of "creating situations" or controlling fate. If you're relying on a cheated critical hit or a cheated critical miss to storytell a particular situation, you're doing it wrong.
Imho, of course.

Coidzor
2010-06-07, 02:54 AM
Trust in the roll box.

What sorta box does one use for the roll box/dice box?

The idea intrigues me, and I'm wondering what would work well.

Mystic Muse
2010-06-07, 03:29 AM
What sorta box does one use for the roll box/dice box?

The idea intrigues me, and I'm wondering what would work well.

My players use a little glass bowl to roll in. It works fairly well and prevents things from interfering with the dice roll.

None of them have cheated. One has done some stupid things and the other has asked for some really stupid things (1 clone of you every ten levels in 4e? Yeah, not happening)

Kaun
2010-06-07, 03:49 AM
What sorta box does one use for the roll box/dice box?

The idea intrigues me, and I'm wondering what would work well.

We use the lid of an old warhammer High elf army box.

I guess its a little bigger then a shoe box.

GreyVulpine
2010-06-07, 04:17 AM
I have made one based on this design:

http://images.boardgamegeek.com/images/pic267423_md.jpg

There's a writeup (http://www.geeknews.net/2008/01/02/very-cool-diy-dice-tower) and plans available on his site.

Works wonderfully.

jiriku
2010-06-07, 04:32 AM
Wow! Lots of responses! That's why the Playground is awesome -- you all really come through when a fellow is in a tight spot.


1. Can I get the numbers that generated that chart? I'd like to run some tests for significance.

2. What is the medium of play? I doubt it's in-person, as the simple solution (rolling in the open) hasn't been considered, and you're able to get away with recording die roll results without the suspected cheater knowing about it. Most online games I know of can *at least* use the Invisible Castle roller.

I'll also note that some players don't like dice-fudging DMs...


1. I see that you already reverse-engineered them (In Soviet Russia, the equations solve you!), but I'll spoiler the rolls here for you to double-check.


17
14
13
19
8
11
11
17
10
14
8
19
16
17
15
14
6
16
9
19
16
17
13
16
16
20
14
15
14
11
14
8
11
14
13
19
8
16
19
16
13
17
14
19
19
8
19
18
15
14
17
19
17
10
5
12
15
1
3
20
16
17
7
14
17
10
16
18
20
7
14
16
2
19
14
14
14
7
19
18
19
16
12
11
20
1
13
19
12
17
16
19
16
20
13
18
18
15
14
17
13
16
12
17
19
19
17
13
20
15
16
9
14
20
18
15
1
18


2. We do play in-person, but the physical setup of the play area is too awkward for me to view rolls. Here's why:
We sit in separate chairs around The World's Smallest Coffee Table, with folding TV trays providing space for books and notebook PCs. Each player is 5-7 feet away from me. To view player rolls or use a rolling tray, I'd need a large table around which could all gather. I don't own such a table, nor is there room another major piece of furniture in my apartment. I don't even have a place to store a couple of folding card tables if I were to purchase them; every spare nook and cranny is bursting with Sterilite containers full of my wife's arts and crafts junk, like an art deco version of the egg sacs in that breeding chamber in the Aliens movie. Although I have and use a small dice-rolling try for myself, players would have to literally get out of their seats and walk over to it in order to toss dice in and retrieve them.


About how I get the numbers from him:
I proposed that players report their bonuses and dice rolls to me, so I could double-check their math. The group consists of a novice player, a player with a math-related learning disability, and the player who wants me to stop the cheating, so the proposal was pretty welcome.

About whether anyone notices or cares:
The player who alerted me to the cheating is seriously upset and may quit if I don't address the problem. I personally find cheating offensive, although I'm more laid back about it. I'd like him to stop cheating, but I'm not willing to throw him out of the group over it.

About the possibility of badly weighted dice:
I'll conceed that could be happening. However, he's got more than one d20, and while I can't say for sure because they're all similar colors (with dark-on-dark numbering, naturally), I don't think he's using the same die all the time.

About whether the player is cheating in order to get his fair share of the action:
His PC is the most powerful character in the group, and he is the de facto leader of the party both IC and OOC. During play, he always wants to have the most important role, and is happiest when experiencing his Crowning Moment of Awesome. He strikes me as the sort who would cheat simply because the game to him is a story about how awesome his character is, and failing a critical action during a dramatic moment just isn't consistent with his vision for how the story ought to go. I don't mind the rock-star attitude since he keeps the group focused and moving towards a goal, but I've had to correct him on overly-generous interpretations of the rules dozens of times.

About DM cheating:
I warned my players at the start of the campaign that the game would be lethal and that the dice would be the ultimate arbiter of their success or failure. While I've run gentler, less lethal games in the past, for this campaign I roll my dice in the open and don't fudge the bonuses.

GoodbyeSoberDay
2010-06-07, 06:00 AM
So the coffee table is just in the way? I have several potential solutions, none of which are foolproof, listed in order of my hypothetical preference were I a member of your group both indifferent to and ignorant of any cheating.

1. Modernize. Assumption 1: You have wireless internet available. Assumption 2: Everyone can bring a notebook that can connect to said wireless internet. Invisible castle solves your cheating problem, and maptools can be useful even in person (especially when people can't hoard around one table and rely on your descriptions anyway). Maptools + bad math/novice players are sufficient cover excuses; bam, both cheating and drama avoided, and you get the added bonus of (potentially) faster task resolution and easier information transfer. Of course, this is the least likely to work given the spurious assumptions.

2. Inter-player monitoring. Assumption: While you have no room for new furniture, you can move current furniture. Have players buddy up and sit next to each other so they can monitor each other's rolls. The suspected cheater can't report bad rolls if someone is right next to him and sees the die roll. The main problem is that this is inconvenient, and since you have to have a reason to do something inconvenient (and I can't think of one in this case), you have to admit why you're doing this strategy to everyone.

3. Gentle confrontation. Assumption: You have larger cojones than I. The biggest thing is to remain calm and gentle. No threats, no ultimatums. You know that he feels it better serves the story for certain dramatic rolls to go in his favor, but part of the game is about heroic characters falling short in certain circumstances, so they can pull themselves back up from the depths and fight on, yadda yadda. At this point he'll probably either refuse he's been cheating or he'll attempt to defend his behavior. If he refuses, bring up the statistical evidence. Note that the Goodness of Fit test (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodness_of_fit) significantly rejects* the hypothesis that he has been reporting fair d20 rolls. Bring up the fact that other players are angry about his cheating only if you have to. The fact that the other player hasn't approached the suspected cheater by himself may mean he wants to avoid direct confrontation with the suspected cheater. There is no guarantee such a confrontation will work out well, but it seems like (if no other option works) you're guaranteed to lose a player if you don't confront the suspected cheater.

*Note that I used the first equation on the wikipedia page; I can do this because we know what the data generating process is under the null hypothesis (a fair d20 rolled 118 times), so we know for certain all the relevant moments (in this case, an expected 5.9 reports of each roll), and we can safely assume that 118 samples of a discrete uniform random variable is normally distributed.

Just to stress test this assumption, I ran a Monte Carlo simulation in MATLAB, with an actual discrete uniform random variable going from 1 to 20 (a simulated fair die roll), and found that the same test falsely rejected the null hypothesis 0.0011% of the time using the p value meant to reject at 0.001% chance, so the test works. When I ran the Monte Carlo simulation using the Chi Square value I got from your data as the cutoff for rejection (around 88), the test was never falsely rejected in 100,000 repetitions. I can give you the code if you want, but it's really sloppy.

AmusingSN
2010-06-07, 07:29 AM
Sweeeeeeeet. I have the magic power that automatically makes me pass all rolls, and all rolls and plans against me fail. I took that. As a feat. But it's a special feat that can only be used one time by a single player per campagin, and I took it.

Why would you need to cheat to make a magic power that does that when you could just cut out the middle man and cheat with all your rolls?

Nobody in my table-top group would care -- we'd just be amused that you felt it necessary and probably get some laughs out of you being so odd.

Honestly, once everyone realizes that D&D is a game without winners, and certainly doesn't have a zero-sum outcome, cheating becomes a non-issue.

Quietus
2010-06-07, 07:52 AM
I cheat, for the same reason your player does. I also allow my own players to cheat. The game is in not getting caught for doing so - and not letting anyone get upset over it. The instant someone calls me on it, I of course bluff it off - "Oops, sorry, must've added flanking twice" - and remain fair for a while. Frankly, I fail enough in life, I don't play an RPG to watch my character stumble around like a toon. When I'm DMing, if a player feels strongly enough about a roll to risk cheating, I'll generally let it go as long as it's not obvious.

All bets are off, however, if it's pissing off the group. Soon as someone in the group complains, no more cheating, period. And when I'm DMing, I don't make the cheating aspect clear, or call it out... But that's all part of the game, really.

panaikhan
2010-06-07, 08:02 AM
Here's an example of an extreme measure to eliminate (at least die-related) cheating.

One DM I used to know was rather good with electronics.
After one session where he 'suspected' roll-fudging was happening, he actually built an electronic dice (a button for each 'size' of dice) with two 1" by 3" number displays capable of displaying 00 - 99.
This box, similar in size to a cigarette packet, was passed to each player on their turn, to do all of their rolls on.

On a different note - 'cheating' to prevent things like TPK is kinda expected (and happens in our group from time to time), but cheating just to hog the spotlight is just plain wrong.

Rothen
2010-06-07, 08:07 AM
On 118 trials, that's not exactly conclusive evidence.

I've got a math exams tomorrow, so believe me, I know. :smallannoyed:

jiriku
2010-06-07, 08:09 AM
I can give you the code if you want, but it's really sloppy.

I'd be interested, yes. Although I'm not sure I'll understand it. I can tell that your grasp of statistics greatly exceeds my own.

Calsan
2010-06-07, 08:41 AM
Playing a devils advocate a bit here.

I must say that I have fudged dice before. Mostly I have done that after a few crappy rounds, I have done it as DM if I'm rolling to good. or as player when I had a bad streak. Ultimately everyone wants to have a good game.
And if the player in question needs to succeed in this game well, you could call him on that or just like the others said let everyone roll in the open, so nobody can really cheat.

Aramil369
2010-06-07, 08:51 AM
What sorta box does one use for the roll box/dice box?

The idea intrigues me, and I'm wondering what would work well.

How i built my box was i got an old piece of plywood, cut to 2ft X 1ft. got some black cloth from walmart used some spray adhesive to make it stay on the plywood (the side where we roll) then i got a coupla' wooden dowels both 1in. and square wood glued and screwed them in the inside border after spray painting them black. i would include a pic... but sadly my camera broke a coupla' days ago.

Also the only reason i have the box is because that one player kept yelling "CRITICAL!!" and quickly grabbing his die. he just did that too often. also equipment keeps magically appearing in his bag... but i cant catch him on that... yet.




This is both true and untrue. I agree that your first priority as a GM is to make things interesting. You're telling a story, directing a movie, you're not supposed to be a puppet in the hands of a fistful of dice.
I DO twist events as a GM. But, I rarely RARELY fudge rolls.
If you need to, you can railroad your players to Mars and back without cheating a single roll as a DM.
Rolling in the open makes them feel like you're fair, while you have about a thousand other ways of "creating situations" or controlling fate. If you're relying on a cheated critical hit or a cheated critical miss to storytell a particular situation, you're doing it wrong.
Imho, of course.


i totally agree if you HAVE to fudge or railroad your not a good GM. so don't get me wrong but if it would be more awesome to have the orc warrior chop the head off of the pc that the hit would already kill then ill do it. or if it would be funnier for said orc to slip and fall in the mud but i rolled a... 5 (for arguments sake) for him to keep his footing, i would still say that's low enough for him to take a humorous fall.

i also hate railroading but if the adventure hook said g northeast and the players go southwest... then yeah, trees are going to be sprouting up in front of them. (if they go along on the adventure then they can do what they want and deviate a bit, but i didn't spend all week studying up on the iceland adventure just so they can have a tropical vacation. lol)

Aquillion
2010-06-07, 09:28 AM
Do you really care that he's cheating? There are no winners in D&D and if nobody else has noticed or seems upset, then maybe you should keep your mouth shut and let him keep cheating.The OP says that a player has complained, that's how all this got started.

Ingus
2010-06-07, 09:29 AM
Allow me to say I've understood the persona. Sometimes I've crossed the type (much like "too cool to fail") and for my experience you should try to control him in some way, because I feel it would be very difficult to face the matter with him.
You can try other means suggested to control, but my favourite is intelligent villains: your encounters understand who's the most dangerous opponent and concentrate fire on them. To avoid be cheated twice, try damage outputs not based on saving trows (weapons or rays).
This will discourage your rockstar to shine too much.

mikej
2010-06-07, 09:56 AM
Really now? Cheating dice. That's pretty ridiculous if you ask me. If I ever caught that in game, I'd just tell the player how sad it is to cheat in an cooperative game such as d&d.

To anwser the OP.

If the players are upset just make everyone ( including himself, you don't want to single him out ) roll in front of you. If you suspect his dice are rigged, than try to encourage him to pass on his "amazing luck" into another set of dice. If he confident enough in his phenomenal luck with odds, then he should agree. If not, or he's hesitant, he maybe hiding something. Not sure on how to test if they're rigged, just it's a good start to try and smoke him out alittle.

Dvil
2010-06-07, 10:17 AM
What I would do (if open rolls aren't an option) is tell the group as a whole that someone has reported that someone else might be cheating, that you're recording people's rolls, and that any suspicious rolls will result in a little chat. Make sure you stare at the middle of the coffee table to avoid looking at anyone in particular while you do so, and at least pretend to write after the other players' rolls. That way, he'll either stop at once to avoid being caught as the suspected cheater, or he'll give you an excuse to call him on it, with fair warning given.

Pechvarry
2010-06-07, 12:11 PM
2. Inter-player monitoring. Assumption: While you have no room for new furniture, you can move current furniture. Have players buddy up and sit next to each other so they can monitor each other's rolls. The suspected cheater can't report bad rolls if someone is right next to him and sees the die roll. The main problem is that this is inconvenient, and since you have to have a reason to do something inconvenient (and I can't think of one in this case), you have to admit why you're doing this strategy to everyone.

Could always go the "just kidding... but really" route. It's your apartment, you can rearrange your furniture how you want it. And it just so happens to be in a position where every seat is watched by another. Then you casually toss out a joke like "yeah this way everyone can make sure their neighbor isn't cheating." Likely, even if it's taken as a joke, players will end up watching each other's rolls for no other reason than to keep up the joke. Even though it was never funny.

But who wants to rearrange furniture? Instead of tracking data for a month, I would've spent a month constantly scrutinizing his good luck with dice rolls aloud. Not claiming cheating, just saying stuff like "you've yet to roll in the lower 75 percentile tonight!" This forces a cheater into a cheater and a liar which really lays the guilt on thick. If he's a decent person, he'll feel some shame and cut back. I assume he is, as you let him into your home on a regular basis.

In the last 6-8 years of playing D&D, I don't think I've ever made a character without fudging his rolled stats for character creation. But I blatantly tell my entire group: "yeah I rolled a 9 but changed it to a 12 'cuz I'm tired of dumping charisma."

Kaulesh
2010-06-07, 12:29 PM
Relevant. I was looking for some modules to run later and I happened across some Roleplaying Tips newsletter. The second-latest issue is about this very problem. Some of the submitted answers may be over-the-top, though.

When Players Cheat: Game Master Tips to Keep Them In Line (http://www.roleplayingtips.com/readissue.php?number=491&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+roleplayingtips+(Roleplaying+Ti ps))

lyko555
2010-06-07, 12:55 PM
My best cheating story happend last week when the player rolled a 20 and within half a second had picked up a die and rolled a 19, and once agan picked up the die. all to confirm a crit on the mind controlled gnome illusionist PARTY member.

GoodbyeSoberDay
2010-06-07, 03:39 PM
On 118 trials, that's not exactly conclusive evidence.

I've got a math exams tomorrow, so believe me, I know. :smallannoyed:Actually, it does offer rather conclusive results, mostly because we know a lot about how the distribution should behave. To repeat the previous results, a simple test of mean bias is woefully insignificant, as you'd expect with 118 trials and the relatively large variance of a d20 roll, but a chi square goodness of fit test is wildly significant.

jiriku: Here's the Monte Carlo code. Anyone who actually knows MATLAB, don't look, or you'll laugh yourself to death at my woefully bad coding. It works, though.%Goodness of Fit for dice Monte Carlo
clear;
clc;
rep=100000;
dtype=20;
n=118;
expect=(n/dtype)*ones(dtype,1);
Chireject1=43.82; %%p=0.001
Chireject2=88; %%p should be even less
reject1=zeros(rep,1);
reject2=zeros(rep,1);
for i=1:rep
sample=unidrnd(dtype,n,1);
freq=[sum(sample==1),sum(sample==2),sum(sample==3),sum(s ample==4),sum(sample==5),sum(sample==6),sum(sample ==7),sum(sample==8),sum(sample==9),sum(sample==10) ,sum(sample==11),sum(sample==12),sum(sample==13),s um(sample==14),sum(sample==15),sum(sample==16),sum (sample==17),sum(sample==18),sum(sample==19),sum(s ample==20)]';
diff=freq-expect;
sqdif=diff.^2;
xsqdif=sqdif./5.9;
Chi=sum(xsqdif);
if Chi>Chireject1
reject1(i,1)=1;
else
reject1(i,1)=0;
end
if Chi>Chireject2
reject2(i,1)=1;
else
reject2(i,1)=0;
end
end
alpha1=sum(reject1)/rep
alpha2=sum(reject2)/rep(It appears GitP has eliminated the indents and put some of the lines on 2 lines, making this hard to read, but it's all there.)

GoodbyeSoberDay
2010-06-07, 03:46 PM
Relevant. I was looking for some modules to run later and I happened across some Roleplaying Tips newsletter. The second-latest issue is about this very problem. Some of the submitted answers may be over-the-top, though.

When Players Cheat: Game Master Tips to Keep Them In Line (http://www.roleplayingtips.com/readissue.php?number=491&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+roleplayingtips+(Roleplaying+Ti ps))From When Players Cheat
Just as you expect me, the game master, to run the game honestly, I expect the same from you as well.This gets me thinking (and stop me if this is thread derailment); is it fair game to cheat when playing under a DM who fudges die rolls?

Mystic Muse
2010-06-07, 03:48 PM
The DM's job is to create a story everybody enjoys. If that means fudging the occasional roll then that's the DM's job.

GoodbyeSoberDay
2010-06-07, 03:56 PM
The DM's job is to create a story everybody enjoys. If that means fudging the occasional roll then that's the DM's job.What if one player specifically doesn't enjoy the DM fudging die rolls? Does he just hide it? That won't end well.

Suppose we have a known dieroll-fudging DM. Now suppose he catches a cheating player in the act. What's the DM going to say? He can't say "Only roll a d20 when you're prepared to roll a 1." He can't appeal to the rules, or the reasons the rules are there. All he can say is "The reason I can alter die rolls is because I'm in the SPECIAL seat, and you're not, so you can't," or at least that's all the cheating player is going to hear. That won't end well.

Disclaimer: I wouldn't cheat even if I knew the DM was fudging die rolls; I'd just talk to him privately and voice complaints. But if you have a player who's predisposed to cheating anyway, the dieroll-fudging DM just opens the floodgates.

jiriku
2010-06-07, 03:57 PM
I see two sides to DM cheating.

Side 1: Sometimes the DM fudges die rolls to ensure that everyone has a good time. For example, he might ignore a lethal critical result to avoid killing a PC during a random monster encounter. Or he might reduce a monster's hit points in the middle of a combat when he realizes that he accidently made an encounter too difficult. This is not really cheating: the DMG explicitly authorizes the DM to do this sort of thing, and it's done for the sake of creating a fun gaming experience for others.

Side 2: Sometimes the DM fudges die rolls because the players have used clever tactics and teamwork to defeat an enemy they "weren't supposed to beat". Or the DM may deliberately cheat in order to haze a specific player who's annoyed him. This is malevolent cheating. It's a power trip, and it's always wrong.

Flip Side: Neither situation justifies player cheating. There's an ethical and an unethical way to solve every problem, and justifying your cheating by saying "he was asking for it" just means that you're irresponsible as well as a liar.

tl;dr If you've got principles, then live by them regardless of what others do. If you're an unprincipled liar and a cheat, at least be honest with yourself about what you're doing and don't make up excuses.

Learnedguy
2010-06-07, 04:01 PM
Hmm, dice rolls aren't that important anyway, especially not in a dnd once you reach the high levels.

Tactics and build options are lot more important.

Mystic Muse
2010-06-07, 04:07 PM
I see two sides to DM cheating.

Side 1: Sometimes the DM fudges die rolls to ensure that everyone has a good time. For example, he might ignore a lethal critical result to avoid killing a PC during a random monster encounter. This is not really cheating: the DMG explicitly authorizes the DM to do this sort of thing, and it's done for the sake of creating a fun gaming experience.


This is what I do. If I feel like it's a decent death then I won't fudge the dice to save them but if an Orc gets a lucky crit in a random encounter I'll probably fudge the dice to keep the player alive.

GoodbyeSoberDay
2010-06-07, 04:07 PM
Jiriku: Those 'sides' seem like ends of a spectrum. I'd say the more common occurrence is like so:

The Dragon faces off with the party. Wizard tosses out a Save-or-Suck. The DM needs to roll a 13 or better to save, and doesn't care at all what the die result is. The Dragon just has to pass! He's supposed to be an awesome warrior of legend; he can't be blinded/prone/weakened/shaken for the whole combat! He'll pass no matter what the DM rolls.

End result: Wizard wastes his action, and ultimately ends up realizing he's wasted many actions.

The BBEG finishes his evil monologue, and the barbarian crits with his greataxe while power attacking for a substantial amount. But the BBEG can't get splattered without even acting! He's the BBEG! Maybe he should have 100 more hit points.

End result: Melee can't have nice things, like that hilarious memory of when he one-shotted that villain.

A small amount of carebear fudging in random encounters... shouldn't even be noticeable, and it's understandable. But even if it's not in malice, DM fudging takes away player agency. It's a form of stealth railroading, and it sets bad precedent.

jiriku
2010-06-07, 04:18 PM
GSD, I totally agree. Under a previous DM (thankfully no longer part of our group), the DM's rampant cheating essentially forced me to use only spells that required no attack roll, saving throw, or Spell Resistance check for my wizard. I caught him adding as much as 20 points to certain monster saving throws to ensure that my save-or-dies wouldn't work. By golly, he wasn't going to let some piddly standard-action wizard spell end the encounter until he was good and ready for it to end!

It was endlessly frustrating, and I am still a little bitter about it. Even experiences like those can be turned to good, however. I learned A LOT about wizard optimization in a very short time as I hunted for spells and tactics that he couldn't cheat his way out of. That knowledge is still useful now that I'm in the DM's chair; my players have learned that "kill the casters first" is life-saving battlefield wisdom. :smallamused:

PId6
2010-06-07, 04:18 PM
Occasionally, DMs make mistakes. An encounter that's much harder than he anticipated, for example, should be scaled back or fudged somehow so that it doesn't kill the party. That's a perfectly reasonable way to make up for your earlier mistake of sending an encounter that's too much for the PCs to handle without realizing it.

On the other hand, accidentally making an encounter too easy when it isn't supposed to be is likewise a mistake, and a DM is in his right to fix that mistake as well. If he unwittingly sent the BBEG at the party without realizing that the barbarian took Shock Trooper last level and can OHKO it, he's in his right to fix that mistake and make the BBEG have more hit points or have a Contingency up for that, as long as it's within reasonable and believable limits. It's the BBEG; it's supposed to be an epic encounter that takes multiple rounds. However novel it might be to be able to say "Remember that one time I OHKO'd the BBEG?" years later, it's still a disappointing encounter from that session's standpoint. I'd much rather have a fun epic final battle than just exploit a DM oversight and win in an anticlimactic way.

However, there's definitely a limit to this, and you can certainly go overboard. Random encounters and everyday monsters should never be buffed mid-combat if they're too easy, for example, since they're not supposed to be especially challenging anyway. And you should never make anyone's actions entirely useless. Fudging should only be done when the situation absolutely calls for it, not just because the DM's annoyed the wizard can disable the encounter with a single spell.

Twilight_Crow
2010-06-07, 04:23 PM
Believe it or not, some people are just that lucky. There's one guy I play with. I would also swear he was cheating, but I WATCH him roll. And he doesn't have his own dice. In Exalted, he averages a 70% success rate (almost the inverse of what it should be). In d20, he's about average, but still above the curve. My friends and I say it compensates for his IQ :smallamused:

On the flip side, there's a simple way to see: just switch up the seating arrangement and watch him roll. If he's really just that lucky, then there's nothing to do but sacrifice a small child to the dice gods and hope they're feeling generous that day...and that he didn't sacrifice more than you.:smalleek:

GoodbyeSoberDay
2010-06-07, 04:32 PM
Twilight: It's not necessarily luck. Some people are just good at rolling dice, especially d6s. This is why casinos make craps players throw dice across the table, so that it's actually random. Note that this trait could be entirely subconscious.

Balain
2010-06-07, 04:43 PM
As was stated the results of the die rolls may not actually be cheating. In our group one friend has a set of d6 that seem to roll high much more often then low. We can always tell when he uses them to roll for stats. More than once he has ended up with 3 18's and the stats were rolled in front of everyone.

The easiest solution is all die rolls are made in front of everyone. Even in combat the DM can roll in front of everyone.

An old dragon magazine I had, there were two articles on cheating. "Cheating made easy" and "Cheating made even easier." Things to watch out for like when rolling d100. Don't say which die is the 10's and which is the 1's. When rolling multiple dice let them fall one at a time and if it looks like the first is going to be bad try to aim the second into the first etc.

In our group cheating isn't really an issue. Something minor like dice rolls are normally ignored unless it gets out of hand.

gomanfox
2010-06-07, 05:03 PM
What makes the accusing player think that the other one is cheating? Is it just the overall good rolls, or have they noticed the player doing something they shouldn't?

I have a friend I've played with that typically rolls really well, playing in a game with him is great... playing in a game he's running is deadly. :P Some people just have better luck with dice than others.

It really could just be a coincidence that the player has the results he does, rolling a die is supposed to be random and expecting around 5% for each roll isn't realistic. Sure it's unusual that they're typically all high rolls, but I don't think having high rolls is enough to be sure that someone is cheating. It still might be a good idea to watch your players' rolls for a while though.

GoodbyeSoberDay
2010-06-07, 06:05 PM
It really could just be a coincidence that the player has the results he doesThe chance that the player rolled a fair die and came up with those frequencies of die results is infinitesimal. It's not worth considering. I agree that there should be some difference from the expected frequencies of the dice rolls, but this is too much by a very large margin.

Mystic Muse
2010-06-07, 06:10 PM
The chance that the player rolled a fair die and came up with those frequencies of die results is infinitesimal. It's not worth considering. I agree that there should be some difference from the expected frequencies of the dice rolls, but this is too much by a very large margin.

The only fair die is a casino die. Normal dice aren't made precise enough to be "fair"

GoodbyeSoberDay
2010-06-07, 06:17 PM
The only fair die is a casino die. Normal dice aren't made precise enough to be "fair"Quite true, but testing non-casino dice for fairness is relatively easy. Roll them over and over, record the results, and do the same test. Coincidentally, this is how I convinced a group of settlers players to change their dice. The wooden ones that come with that game are particularly bad.

Mystic Muse
2010-06-07, 06:19 PM
Quite true, but testing non-casino dice for fairness is relatively easy. Roll them over and over, record the results, and do the same test. Coincidentally, this is how I convinced a group of settlers players to change their dice. The wooden ones that come with that game are particularly bad.

Won't this destroy the sides of the dice though? Or am I more concerned about something's fragility than I should be? (for example. I cringe whenever somebody throws a can of soup into a shopping cart.)

GoodbyeSoberDay
2010-06-07, 06:32 PM
Won't this destroy the sides of the dice though? Or am I more concerned about something's fragility than I should be? (for example. I cringe whenever somebody throws a can of soup into a shopping cart.)I'd like to meet the salesman who successfully sells dice that break after a couple hundred rolls, and direct him to the nearest used car lot where he belongs.

gomanfox
2010-06-07, 08:02 PM
The chance that the player rolled a fair die and came up with those frequencies of die results is infinitesimal. It's not worth considering. I agree that there should be some difference from the expected frequencies of the dice rolls, but this is too much by a very large margin.

The chances are no different than any other combination of rolls, since the chance of any side being rolled is 5% (at least with a perfect die) and each roll is unaffected by the previous rolls. If you roll a d20 20 times, you have the same chance of getting 20 1s in a row as you do of getting one of each number.

If the results were the opposite, where the player was getting mostly low rolls, it would be seen as "bad luck" so I don't think it's hard to believe that it could just be "good luck." But the only way to find out the player is cheating or not is to watch them roll and see if their average rolls change over a period of time.

Mystic Muse
2010-06-07, 08:07 PM
I'd like to meet the salesman who successfully sells dice that break after a couple hundred rolls, and direct him to the nearest used car lot where he belongs.

Well, I believe the standard to find out what side/s a die is weighted towards is 1,000 rolls? That'd wear down the edges some I'd think. Maybe I'm just paranoid.

TheThan
2010-06-07, 08:13 PM
Are you sure he's cheating? It might just be that what he thought was his "lucky die" turned out to be poorly manufactured in such a way that results in higher rolls.

This is highly possible. I know someone with dice that will roll 6s (D6s) 66% of the time. They actually charted this out and everything, the dice are just made poorly that results in such high numbers.

Shadowleaf
2010-06-07, 08:38 PM
This is highly possible. I know someone with dice that will roll 6s (D6s) 66% of the time. They actually charted this out and everything, the dice are just made poorly that results in such high numbers.

Somewhere out there, there is a dice manufactor who has a soft heart for PC's.

Or in above case for Rogue SA damage or something.

cerulean_wings
2010-06-07, 09:24 PM
With regards to players cheating: it's tough. Really tough. I would know - I've had the problem before, couldn't manage to get anything accomplished. Here are some steps that I would suggest you do to deal with this issue:

1 - Investigate. Assess what's going on. How did you know someone was cheating? Suspicion? Word of mouth? Is it really cheating what's going on? Avoid having direct talks with potential cheaters about this - you don't want to accuse people of stuff you've got no evidence for. Observe and analyze. Maybe wait a couple of sessions before deciding one way or the other.

2 - Confrontation. Once you're fairly certain that one player is cheating, deal with it. By that, I mean talk to your player. No, you may not place "talk" with "kill," this is about your group of friends with which you hang out to have fun, yes?

Don't threaten, accuse, insult, or otherwise assault your fellow group member during this talk. Good Gods, y'all, this should be obvious, but some people forget this when they feel "attacked" by stuff like cheaters. I understand, you don't like cheaters, neither do I, but they're still human, and as far as I know, your buddies. Treat them as if they're both, then. Ask why the player is cheating, find a way to change that, and so on.

3 - The end. Did you have a talk? If so, was the player in agreement with practically everything you pointed out as a problem and then your solutions to it? If the answer is yes, then your job is done. If the answer is no, then you'll have to deal with the issue of potentially kicking out an unscrupulous cheater (in which case you'll have to reconsider exactly how much of a friend this fellow is, really).

That's that, my 2 cents, or what have you.

Now, there's another issue that I've seen in this thread, about DMs cheating. Is it allowed? Why, or why not? Is it okay, if it's for the sake of fun?

Here's my view on the different views on DM cheating:

DM who cheats because the rules allow it - Really, now? What rules are those? Rules established by the whole group, out in the open? Or rules you made up in your mind, or decided to establish without the knowledge of others?

Bottom line is this: if you know you'll cheat eventually, even once, it's dishonest for your players not to know.

DM who cheats because he/she wants to preserve the fun - So the Red Dragon got a critical hit on the paladin, killing him. Or did it?! By fudging the roll, voila, the paladin is unscathed! Now everyone can continue having fun!

Wait, what? Since when is "never dying" or plain "never losing a character" synonymous with "fun"? Sure, losing a character sucks, I've been there, it's not nice, but it's part of life in the game. People die doing heroic stuff (assuming you're playing standard DnD). But why oh why do people defend their cheating as DMs with the excuse of "I want everyone to have fun"? Where's the excitement (read: fun) if characters are never at risk? Where's the drama?

And really, if you absolutely can't deal with a character dying due to an unlucky roll, why perform a roll at all? Just say what the outcome is, and be done with it. It's going to happen one way or the other, so why not just do it without cheating?

That's that on topic #2, my 2 cents.

GoodbyeSoberDay
2010-06-07, 09:36 PM
The chances are no different than any other combination of rolls, since the chance of any side being rolled is 5% (at least with a perfect die) and each roll is unaffected by the previous rolls. If you roll a d20 20 times, you have the same chance of getting 20 1s in a row as you do of getting one of each number.Not true. You can achieve a frequency of 1 in each die roll with a multitude of combinations. For instance, you could roll 1, then 2, then 3, on to 20, or you could have done that but starting with 20 and counting down. There is only one way to roll 20 1s in a row*. The whole reason we can use the goodness of fit test here is that a discrete uniform random variable collapses to a normal distribution asymptotically, not a uniform distribution.

*The conditional probability of rolling a one given you've rolled 19 previous ones (and you know the die is fair) is still 5% like you say, but the probability of rolling 20 fair d20 rolls and all of them being ones given no data about the rolls is (0.05)^20, or in other words some bizarrely small number. The probability of getting 19 ones and one 20 is 20*(0.05)^20, or equivalently (0.05)^19, since there are 20 ways to roll one 20 and 19 ones.

If the results were the opposite, where the player was getting mostly low rolls, it would be seen as "bad luck" so I don't think it's hard to believe that it could just be "good luck." But the only way to find out the player is cheating or not is to watch them roll and see if their average rolls change over a period of time.If the results were the opposite, dice superstition would have commanded the player to destroy the die in question. And in this case, dice superstition would have been right, since the die itself was likely biased towards low numbers. Statistical inference in the real world might have huge issues in its assumptions, but when it comes to the simple task of rolling dice, it is very powerful.


Well, I believe the standard to find out what side/s a die is weighted towards is 1,000 rolls? That'd wear down the edges some I'd think. Maybe I'm just paranoid.1000 is probably the standard Vegas number, since they are quite concerned with even a slight bias in the numbers. I think D&D players can live with slight biases; it's the large ones that are right out, and those should show up with fewer trials. That said, if you do test Vegas style, you'll end up learning something just as important: which dice are going to last you long enough to be worth testing.

Umael
2010-06-07, 10:31 PM
From When Players CheatThis gets me thinking (and stop me if this is thread derailment); is it fair game to cheat when playing under a DM who fudges die rolls?

You know, I hate these kinds of questions because the answer is so misleading.

If I say "yes", then I am saying "he cheats, so you can cheat back." If I say "no", then I am saying, "the GM is also making it a fair game."

Neither one of them is correct OR incorrect - especially when you consider that whether you "cheat" or not may be relevant.

Why?


The purpose of a game is to have fun. If it is a group activity, then hopefully the entire group is having fun. If someone isn't having fun, then it isn't a game or there is something wrong with the game.

I hope this part is self-explanatory. If the GM is fudging die rolls, and everyone is having fun, it's all good. No, I mistake myself. If the GM or the players are fudging die rolls, and the game would actually be less fun if this was stopped, it's all good.

There is a difference between Cheating and "cheating".
(Hoo-boy! This one will come back and bit me, I know it!)


Cheating is the act of someone(s) knowingly violating the mutually agreed-upon rules. This is assuming that these rules have not been mutually agreed-upon because there was some outside coercion involved, that everyone understands these rules or has been given a fair chance to understand these rules before agreeing upon them, and that everyone who agreed upon these rules was of sound mind (and body) when they agreed to them. (I am sure even this definition lacks something.)

For example, changing the die roll is considered cheating by most groups (probably almost all groups).

However, just because someone is "cheating" doesn't mean they are Cheating.


"Cheating" is when the situation has a larger paradigm that makes special exceptions to acts that would normally be considered Cheating. These exceptions might be even unspoken and unclear, possibly because the rules were widely-believed but not clearly defined and explained. In these cases, the players could "cheat" because the GM "cheats".

For example, the GM is running a rogue-based game. As a way to help enhance the mood of the game, the GM allowed the players to change their die rolls so long as no one caught them. The GM also played by these same rules - but these rules were heavily implied and never actually stated.


Example (Warning! Long!):

Cast:
GM (real name: Zoe) - the GM
Wendy - new player to the game, although has played with the group before; plays Jasmine, a swashbuckler, think 3 Musketeers, only female
Victor - plays Henrich, a Germanic-tribe inspired brute
Uma - plays George, the ape-man sorcerer (don't ask)



GM: Thanks for coming by. We're playing Cutthroat D&D tonight. Did the others tell you about it?
Wendy: Just enough to interest me.
GM: Okay, let me explain. Cutthroat begins the moment the game begins and ends the moment the game ends and it never travels further than the house itself. While playing Cutthroat, as long as you do not do anything that might be cause for breaking the law or getting a civil lawsuit filed against you, it is good. Got it?
Wendy: Um... I think so. So why doing it like this?
GM: Well, the campaign itself is a pirates' setting. Your character is going to be part of crew of people who work together, but you don't trust anyone, even your best friends - who are supposed to be the other PCs. We got rogues, beguilers, barbarians, sorcerers who ran away from home... anyone who might fit in with a bunch of pirates is good.
Wendy: So... no Lawful and no Good I take it.
GM: I didn't say that. I don't think there will be any Lawful Good characters, certain no paladins, but if you want to play a Lawful or a Good character, go for it.
Wendy: So if it is anything goes, what's to stop you from just making a monster that always hits? Or the Fortitude Save for its poison attack changes?
GM: Nothing, really. But if you ever don't want to play anymore, I'll call game. Immediately. I'm trying to make sure everyone has fun, not just me. There is a difference between playing Cutthroat and just screwing people over.
Wendy: Okay. I'll give it a try.
GM: Good. Don't worry, I'm a fair GM. Well, maybe. I promise you'll have fun.

(later)

GM: The last of the ghoul merchants falls to the ground. They're all dead. Okay, battle's over.
Victor: Henrich looks around. "Es dat it?"
Uma: "Yes." George will start looting the corpses.
Wendy: Jasmine looks over at First-Mate.
GM: It looks like Scabby and One-Eye got to him first. Scabby ain't looking so good without his head and all, and One-Eye is covered in blood and has a sword through his chest and isn't moving.
Uma: I still can't believe the First-Mate was a ghoul in league with the merchants!
Victor: Seriously, Zoe! That was cruel! We're the only ones left!
GM: You flatter me.
Uma: Hey, no problem. It only takes two to man this boat, six if we want to do a good job of it.
Wendy: Hey, how about El Capitan?
GM: Make a Spot check.
Wendy: 18!
Victor: Lucky die again?
Wendy: ...total.
GM: Good enough. You see El Capitan. He looks still, but his eyes dart around.
Uma: Woo-hoo! That makes four!
Victor: Yeah, but he's paralyzed. And since First-Mate is dead... hey! "Hy declare hyself First-Mate! Hany oz hyu gurls got ah problem mit dat?"
Zoe, Wendy, Uma: ...
Uma: Wow. Sexist much, Victor?
Victor: Hey, that was in-character!
Wendy: Whatever. Anyway, you can't get to be First-Mate because I'm going to be First-Mate!
Victor: Sez you! Intimidate! 26!
Uma: Don't touch the die! I want to see!
GM: Well?
Uma: Yeah. It's a 16. Plus 10 is 26.
GM: Wendy, what's Jasmine's Will Save?
Wendy: Um... +8.
GM: Okay. Roll it.
Wendy: Yes! 20!! So 28! Okay, I'm going to...
Victor: What? Let me see!
Wendy: Go ahead!
Victor: ...yeah, okay, it's a 20... but what's this?
Wendy: Hey! Give me my character sheet back!
Victor: That's a funny looking +8 on your Will Save, Wendy. Looks more like a +4.
Wendy: Er... wrong character sheet?
GM: Next try, Wendy. George successfully Intimidates you into backing down. Now-
Uma: Wait! Zoe, look at Victor's die!
Victor: What? Hey, you saw it was a 16!
GM: Huh. Very interesting. Victor, do you know that your die has 3 16's on it. And two 19's. Where's the 1... oh there!
Victor: What!? I didn't- you!
Uma: What?
Victor: That's not my die! You switched it!
Uma: Really? And where's your proof?
Victor: ...grrr!
GM: Victor, if you happened to have misplaced your die, I'm sure we'll all find it once game is over. Right, everyone?
Wendy, Uma: Right!
Victor: ...better.
GM: And if no one wants to claim this die at the end of game...
Uma: I want to take it!
Victor: I want it destroyed!
Wendy: I want to get back to game.
GM: Fair enough. So, Victor, I'm going to have to declare that George's attempt fails...
Victor: Wait! If the die is flawed-
GM: Then you automatically lose the challenge. We can't prove that it is yours because it looks just like your favorite die, and you can't prove that it is not.
Victor: Fine! "George! Vant ta make ah deal?"
Uma: "Um... what's the deal?"
Victor: "Fote vor me, und I vill gift hyu half ov Jazmen's shares!"
Wendy: What? No way!
Uma: Okay!
Wendy: No! You guys can't do this! Shares are between the captain and the crew!
Victor: No problem! Henrich walks over to the captain.
Wendy: There is no way I'm going to let you get there!
Uma: George casts hold person on Jasmine.
GM: You know that's your last spell for the day, right?
Uma: Yeah, but I don't want her to beat George there.
GM: Wendy? What did you roll?
Wendy: ...6. Quit looking, Victor!
Victor: Okay, okay.
GM: So, Victor, Henrich gets to EL Capitan. He looks a little out of it, but alive.
Victor: Henrich puts a hand on El Capitan. "El Capitan?"
GM: Make a Fortitude Save.
Uma: What!?
Victor: Um... 12. Crud.
GM: Sorry. Henrich's paralyzed. El Capitan gets up and smiles, showing carnivorous teeth...
Uma: Ah! El Capitan is a ghoul too!
Wendy: But you said they were all dead!
GM: Well, they are. They're un-dead.
Victor: Hey! I thought you said the battle's over!
Wendy: But we never double-checked. Zoe, you are so dead when this is over.
GM: Quite likely. Initiative, people. And let's roll them where everyone can see them...

Thajocoth
2010-06-07, 10:36 PM
We have a player with unreadable dice that he has to squint at to see the numbers on. We trust he's not cheating because 17, 10, 3 & 7 are his most commonly rolled numbers, which is consistent with what a real die might do.

Dairun Cates
2010-06-07, 11:19 PM
For example, the GM is running a rogue-based game. As a way to help enhance the mood of the game, the GM allowed the players to change their die rolls so long as no one caught them. The GM also played by these same rules - but these rules were heavily implied and never actually stated.


Example (Warning! Long!):

Cast:
GM (real name: Zoe) - the GM
Wendy - new player to the game, although has played with the group before; plays Jasmine, a swashbuckler, think 3 Musketeers, only female
Victor - plays Henrich, a Germanic-tribe inspired brute
Uma - plays George, the ape-man sorcerer (don't ask)



GM: Thanks for coming by. We're playing Cutthroat D&D tonight. Did the others tell you about it?
Wendy: Just enough to interest me.
GM: Okay, let me explain. Cutthroat begins the moment the game begins and ends the moment the game ends and it never travels further than the house itself. While playing Cutthroat, as long as you do not do anything that might be cause for breaking the law or getting a civil lawsuit filed against you, it is good. Got it?
Wendy: Um... I think so. So why doing it like this?
GM: Well, the campaign itself is a pirates' setting. Your character is going to be part of crew of people who work together, but you don't trust anyone, even your best friends - who are supposed to be the other PCs. We got rogues, beguilers, barbarians, sorcerers who ran away from home... anyone who might fit in with a bunch of pirates is good.
Wendy: So... no Lawful and no Good I take it.
GM: I didn't say that. I don't think there will be any Lawful Good characters, certain no paladins, but if you want to play a Lawful or a Good character, go for it.
Wendy: So if it is anything goes, what's to stop you from just making a monster that always hits? Or the Fortitude Save for its poison attack changes?
GM: Nothing, really. But if you ever don't want to play anymore, I'll call game. Immediately. I'm trying to make sure everyone has fun, not just me. There is a difference between playing Cutthroat and just screwing people over.
Wendy: Okay. I'll give it a try.
GM: Good. Don't worry, I'm a fair GM. Well, maybe. I promise you'll have fun.

(later)

GM: The last of the ghoul merchants falls to the ground. They're all dead. Okay, battle's over.
Victor: Henrich looks around. "Es dat it?"
Uma: "Yes." George will start looting the corpses.
Wendy: Jasmine looks over at First-Mate.
GM: It looks like Scabby and One-Eye got to him first. Scabby ain't looking so good without his head and all, and One-Eye is covered in blood and has a sword through his chest and isn't moving.
Uma: I still can't believe the First-Mate was a ghoul in league with the merchants!
Victor: Seriously, Zoe! That was cruel! We're the only ones left!
GM: You flatter me.
Uma: Hey, no problem. It only takes two to man this boat, six if we want to do a good job of it.
Wendy: Hey, how about El Capitan?
GM: Make a Spot check.
Wendy: 18!
Victor: Lucky die again?
Wendy: ...total.
GM: Good enough. You see El Capitan. He looks still, but his eyes dart around.
Uma: Woo-hoo! That makes four!
Victor: Yeah, but he's paralyzed. And since First-Mate is dead... hey! "Hy declare hyself First-Mate! Hany oz hyu gurls got ah problem mit dat?"
Zoe, Wendy, Uma: ...
Uma: Wow. Sexist much, Victor?
Victor: Hey, that was in-character!
Wendy: Whatever. Anyway, you can't get to be First-Mate because I'm going to be First-Mate!
Victor: Sez you! Intimidate! 26!
Uma: Don't touch the die! I want to see!
GM: Well?
Uma: Yeah. It's a 16. Plus 10 is 26.
GM: Wendy, what's Jasmine's Will Save?
Wendy: Um... +8.
GM: Okay. Roll it.
Wendy: Yes! 20!! So 28! Okay, I'm going to...
Victor: What? Let me see!
Wendy: Go ahead!
Victor: ...yeah, okay, it's a 20... but what's this?
Wendy: Hey! Give me my character sheet back!
Victor: That's a funny looking +8 on your Will Save, Wendy. Looks more like a +4.
Wendy: Er... wrong character sheet?
GM: Next try, Wendy. George successfully Intimidates you into backing down. Now-
Uma: Wait! Zoe, look at Victor's die!
Victor: What? Hey, you saw it was a 16!
GM: Huh. Very interesting. Victor, do you know that your die has 3 16's on it. And two 19's. Where's the 1... oh there!
Victor: What!? I didn't- you!
Uma: What?
Victor: That's not my die! You switched it!
Uma: Really? And where's your proof?
Victor: ...grrr!
GM: Victor, if you happened to have misplaced your die, I'm sure we'll all find it once game is over. Right, everyone?
Wendy, Uma: Right!
Victor: ...better.
GM: And if no one wants to claim this die at the end of game...
Uma: I want to take it!
Victor: I want it destroyed!
Wendy: I want to get back to game.
GM: Fair enough. So, Victor, I'm going to have to declare that George's attempt fails...
Victor: Wait! If the die is flawed-
GM: Then you automatically lose the challenge. We can't prove that it is yours because it looks just like your favorite die, and you can't prove that it is not.
Victor: Fine! "George! Vant ta make ah deal?"
Uma: "Um... what's the deal?"
Victor: "Fote vor me, und I vill gift hyu half ov Jazmen's shares!"
Wendy: What? No way!
Uma: Okay!
Wendy: No! You guys can't do this! Shares are between the captain and the crew!
Victor: No problem! Henrich walks over to the captain.
Wendy: There is no way I'm going to let you get there!
Uma: George casts hold person on Jasmine.
GM: You know that's your last spell for the day, right?
Uma: Yeah, but I don't want her to beat George there.
GM: Wendy? What did you roll?
Wendy: ...6. Quit looking, Victor!
Victor: Okay, okay.
GM: So, Victor, Henrich gets to EL Capitan. He looks a little out of it, but alive.
Victor: Henrich puts a hand on El Capitan. "El Capitan?"
GM: Make a Fortitude Save.
Uma: What!?
Victor: Um... 12. Crud.
GM: Sorry. Henrich's paralyzed. El Capitan gets up and smiles, showing carnivorous teeth...
Uma: Ah! El Capitan is a ghoul too!
Wendy: But you said they were all dead!
GM: Well, they are. They're un-dead.
Victor: Hey! I thought you said the battle's over!
Wendy: But we never double-checked. Zoe, you are so dead when this is over.
GM: Quite likely. Initiative, people. And let's roll them where everyone can see them...

Not going to lie. That is PURE genius. It so beautifully gets people into character and keeps the spirit of the game.

okpokalypse
2010-06-07, 11:22 PM
You absolutely just need to make him roll in front of the other players. Since you've got a Narc, you're not going to have a group conspiracy.

Don't be too certain about the whole distribution of the rolls. I've been called a cheater myself by more than one person I've played with as I'm a very streaky roller. I've had my dice been called loaded. I've been told I've made a deal with the devil.

In a campaign some years ago, over the span of 6 months - gaming every 2 weeks (13 sessions, over 300 rolls), my average die roll (with 4 different sets of dice - only one being mine) was a 14.6. Sometimes that just happens. At one point, with 3 different d20s, I rolled 6 straight 20's. These were from dice other's use and don't roll the same.

In my session before last specifically (looking at my combat log), I rolled a total of 26 d20s throughout the night. Of those 26 d20s. 5, 8, 10, 11, 11, 12, 12, 13, 13, 14, 15, 15, 15, 15, 16, 16, 17, 18, 18, 19, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20. (Not in that Order, Obviously). Average = 15.1 and every single one was rolled open on one of 3 different dice. The funny part was that I was playing a melee'r and EVERY SINGLE 20 was on a Save. Not one Crit with a Huge Heavy Pole-Axe (you read that right).

So what I'm getting at is this: Don't be too quick to judge someone is cheating without proof. I've got a thick skin and it pissed me off mightily at first, because it's not just an accusation - it's a statement about a person's character (not PC - but actual character), and you shouldn't make those assumptions without proof.

GoodbyeSoberDay
2010-06-08, 12:45 AM
You absolutely just need to make him roll in front of the other players. Since you've got a Narc, you're not going to have a group conspiracy.

Don't be too certain about the whole distribution of the rolls. I've been called a cheater myself by more than one person I've played with as I'm a very streaky roller. I've had my dice been called loaded. I've been told I've made a deal with the devil.

In a campaign some years ago, over the span of 6 months - gaming every 2 weeks (13 sessions, over 300 rolls), my average die roll (with 4 different sets of dice - only one being mine) was a 14.6. Sometimes that just happens. At one point, with 3 different d20s, I rolled 6 straight 20's. These were from dice other's use and don't roll the same.

In my session before last specifically (looking at my combat log), I rolled a total of 26 d20s throughout the night. Of those 26 d20s. 5, 8, 10, 11, 11, 12, 12, 13, 13, 14, 15, 15, 15, 15, 16, 16, 17, 18, 18, 19, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20. (Not in that Order, Obviously). Average = 15.1 and every single one was rolled open on one of 3 different dice. The funny part was that I was playing a melee'r and EVERY SINGLE 20 was on a Save. Not one Crit with a Huge Heavy Pole-Axe (you read that right).

So what I'm getting at is this: Don't be too quick to judge someone is cheating without proof. I've got a thick skin and it pissed me off mightily at first, because it's not just an accusation - it's a statement about a person's character (not PC - but actual character), and you shouldn't make those assumptions without proof.That is weird, but the small sample size leaves some room for error. You should roll each d20 ~300 times and report the results here. If your dice are seriously biased you should stop using them.

Umael, my question was worded poorly. I clarified what I meant two posts down.

Sliver
2010-06-08, 01:51 AM
That is weird, but the small sample size leaves some room for error. You should roll each d20 ~300 times and report the results here. If your dice are seriously biased you should stop using them.

It was three different dice...

One of my first battles with a certain character I rolled extremely high, constantly. And it continued, few poor rolls that mattered... I don't think my dice were biased tho, because it was PbP. :smallbiggrin:

GoodbyeSoberDay
2010-06-08, 01:55 AM
It was three different dice...Which means that any combination of those dice could be biased.

Dairun Cates
2010-06-08, 02:02 AM
To be honest, some pretty ridiculous statistical diversion can be believable from a result of numerous factors.

The only time I've ever seen ridiculous cheating was on a PbP board without a roller like the Giantitp one. Too bad the guy decided a 2% crit chance should go off on his character 7 times in a row. For the non-math buddies, that's a .000000000128% chance approximately. Or in short... about 1 in 1,280,000,000,000 chance. One in a Trillion. There's less than 10 BILLION people on Earth. He's either a liar or the chosen one of the RNG.

When he wouldn't fess up, we banned him and told him to buy a lotto ticket.

Of course, if you can talk face to face, you have the powerful tool of talking to them directly. I wouldn't suggest passive aggressive strategies. Just be open, compassionate, and honest. Unless you're a professional actor, most people will see through your thin disguise.

Umael
2010-06-08, 01:11 PM
Not going to lie. That is PURE genius. It so beautifully gets people into character and keeps the spirit of the game.

Thank you. It's nice to know my efforts were appreciated.


Umael, my question was worded poorly. I clarified what I meant two posts down.

...

I think, ladies and gentlemen, that this was an example of the creation of something wonderful by accident.

(I missed that. Do you have any idea how long it took to write down that scenario??)

obliged_salmon
2010-06-08, 02:50 PM
It seems to me, if your players want to cheat, then there's something wrong with the way dice rolls are resolved. The result of such rolls should ideally be interesting to the player whether or not they succeed. For instance, instead of "you fail your climb check, you fall" or "you fail your lock pick, the door remains locked," try something more like "you fail your climb check, as you work your way up the wall, kobolds appear above and start throwing rocks down at you" and "you fail your lock pick, you achieve that satisfying 'click' just as a guard rounds the corner and spots you." Players won't cheat if consequences are interesting instead of boring. My two cents.

NeoRetribution
2010-06-08, 05:42 PM
Playgrounders, can you share your stories with me of how you've successfully dealt with player cheating in the past?

I see it all the time in farm country. Two kids want some pie or cake. So the parent-of-the-moment tells them, "One of you can make the cuts and the other picks a piece." This is also applicable in a table-top session.

If the group is as tight-knit as represented then the option to do this should be fun. Just announce that everyone will be rolling for the person on their right. All session. Any time the DungeonMaster needs a roll, the person on your left does it and reports the result, though you do not need to say what they are rolling for.

Despite some prejudice against this option, I've found it to work in the majority of my experiences. The only real danger to worry about is if the cheater desires to spoil someone else's fun. Other than that issue any honest players should have no problem rolling for other players. Each player is still in control of their own character, of course, but the die rolls themselves are handled by someone else.

Socially speaking this would be an option to put pressure against a cheater. There is no need to verbally mention cheating, lying, or deception in any way. With this custom the DungeonMaster is also protected in the case that Player One lied about Player Two cheating. The Break-Even Result from this would be would be that a cheating player gets angry and leaves without being forced out. Also, it suffocates the Rock Star Attitude. Players have to trust each other and work together to roll for each other. All that verbal exchange is then public with far fewer options to be deceptive over dice. Players have to be nice and friendly under this custom in order to protect their die rolls which are cast by someone else.

It might be worth while to keep eyes and ears peeled to see if a player tries to trade dice. Even with direct evidence of cheating, such as with photographs, I would not personally allow a cheater to keep playing. If necessary the game would be paused at the moment of discovery. Once the relationship issues were worked out and the cheater ( or liar ) was either exiled or reprimanded, only then would play resume.

Assuming a player was exiled, and justly, the remaining players could decide how that character was removed from the group. Honest players do not get extra bonuses for ratting out or rooting out cheaters. Neither do their characters.

But having players roll for other players is only one option. I've seen a kid aim his knife over a cake for three minutes before cutting a piece he knew would go to someone else. It worked for me, I just hope it works out well for you and your group.

Daitini Peck
2010-06-08, 08:24 PM
If you do determine that the player is cheating, punish him in a different way, through the game.

Don't kill him, but maybe chop an arm off...or a leg. Make him go deaf/mute/blind.

Or, simply change his alignment to Chaotic Evil...if you're running a good campaign. Helm of opposite alignment? The rest of the party has to kill him, so he has to start all over again?

Or, if he searches a room have him find a book called "Cheaters Never Prosper" and curse him with 2-4 permanent negative levels on one or two of his highest stats...:smallyuk:

Private-Prinny
2010-06-08, 08:42 PM
If you do determine that the player is cheating, punish him in a different way, through the game.

Don't kill him, but maybe chop an arm off...or a leg. Make him go deaf/mute/blind.

Or, simply change his alignment to Chaotic Evil...if you're running a good campaign. Helm of opposite alignment? The rest of the party has to kill him, so he has to start all over again?

Or, if he searches a room have him find a book called "Cheaters Never Prosper" and curse him with 2-4 permanent negative levels on one or two of his highest stats...:smallyuk:

If you're going to do something that overtly petty and spiteful, make sure that the other players are annoyed by his cheating, or you could wind up looking like the bad guy.

PersonMan
2010-06-08, 08:56 PM
How would changing his alignment to CE make the other players kill him? If he's smart, he should just play as if nothing changed, just use more extreme measures now and then.

jiriku
2010-06-08, 09:06 PM
Generally, if I am going to use an in-game punishment in response to an OOC behavior, I make the punishment something funny that everyone can laugh at and be entertained by. Cream pies, not axe blades.

NeoRetribution: Novel idea! I may try that.

Salmon: He sure doesn't act bored. In fact, he's the most active and enthusiastic of my players. That's the kicker really. Except for the cheating, he's a DM's dream player. He's the D&D player equivalent of a loaded banana split with premium ice cream, fresh fruit, extra whipped cream, nuts, chocolate syrup, and juicy maraschino cherry...with rat droppings on top.

EDIT: I lol'd over the alignment-change suggestion, but you should know that IMC, alignment is not used and PVP is forbidden. I have no use for the former and I've seen too much bad blood as a result of the latter.

Hobs
2010-06-08, 09:16 PM
On 118 trials, that's not exactly conclusive evidence.

I've got a math exams tomorrow, so believe me, I know. :smallannoyed:

It's shocking how many people here are so confident based on their statistics knowledge that this is not convincing evidence.

I teach this stuff for a living. And just eyeballing, shows these are obviously biased.

And while it could be a biased die, it's pretty unlikely for a die to be biased all toward numbers above 10 given that the numbers are randomly assigned.

Using Excel
The mean is 14.36
The standard deviation is 3.8
The standard error is stdev/sqrt(118) = 0.41
14.36 is 9 standard errors away from 10.5

3 standard errors means he is cheating with 99.86% confidence
6 standard errors means he is cheating with 99.9999999% confidence
9 standard errors is so close to 100% excel can't tell the difference

it could be something unintentional perhaps, but there is no way this is chance.

obliged_salmon
2010-06-08, 09:32 PM
Well that's awesome then, it sounds like you guys are working together to create an exciting gaming environment. I would say another option is to take him aside and, if he's not a really sensitive type of person, just explain to him you don't think any less of him for cheating, and make it clear that he's not on trial or anything for it, but ask him why he does cheat. Maybe he's just super competitive and learned that kind of thing in school or whatnot. Maybe he just wants combat to go faster.

edit: even if you do think less of him for cheating, he won't admit it if you approach in a confrontational way.

PersonMan
2010-06-08, 09:52 PM
Except for the cheating, he's a DM's dream player. He's the D&D player equivalent of a loaded banana split with premium ice cream, fresh fruit, extra whipped cream, nuts, chocolate syrup, and juicy maraschino cherry...with rat droppings on top.

...That sounds horrible to me. Just saying. Those flavors would never mix, and the textures would...ugh!

...I'll just pretend you used a different metaphor, alright?

On topic: Hmmm. Attempting to appear cool and knowledgeable while I have nothing on-topic to say.

NeoRetribution
2010-07-14, 01:35 AM
Jiriku, what happened with your group? Was the situation resolved?

Psyx
2010-07-14, 04:58 AM
That's not even a slightly believable spread of dice rolls. Although it's as likely as any other precise spread, the deviation is whack. And you don't get dice rolls like that on a d20 with an 'odd' dice, because of the way the numbers are printed on them. You get it from lying about what is on top!

"So, tell me your tales of how you've solved these sorts of problems in the past!"

Insist that no dice are rolled until I say 'roll perception' or whatever, so 'warm up' rolls aren't kept on the table if they are high. None of those cylindrical dice. No tiny dice too small for others to read. No hiding dice rolls. Start making it difficult, without seeming to be accusing anyone of anything. Then if they start jumping through hoops to cheat it becomes more obvious to everyone.

Only once have I got to the point of having to sit there behind the GM screen and with a poker face 'roll' criticals with max damage on a player several rounds in a row (and 'randomly' dicing as to who missile weapons were hitting). You could see the face starting to fall as it progressed. On about round three, I didn't even bother picking dice up, so there wasn't even the noise of rolling. When called on the issue I told them that I was making dice rolls up, too. Wasn't it fun any more?

I'd recommend diplomacy first, though.

Also: Start looking for a new player now. That way, you can get them in the group and not worry about booting the guy if required.