Wayward Sons - New full color/full page WEEKDAY comic

[wizbenny]

http://www.WaywardSons.net

We just launched Wayward Sons: Legends last week. It's a prequel ongoing daily comic to a series of properties including a movie that's in development. It updates for FREE every day Mondays through Fridays.

I've literally had this concept rattling around my brain for 17 years, and been in constant development in some form or another for the past couple years!

So this is a labor of love that's been LONG a long time coming, and I REALLY hope everyone likes it. Please do let me know what you all think!

[Domochevsky]

What a peculiar use of the word "FREE". :smallconfused:

[wizbenny]

In what way is it peculiar?

I don't get charged, you don't get charged...

It's actually more accurate than "Buy 1 get 1 free." Which is not technically free at all, but more of a "bargain purchase."

[PhantomFox]

The reason being, most webcomics are free. Noting that it's free doesn't really set it apart and feels redundant.

[Felius]

Peculiar in the sense that webcomics are expected to be free*, supported by ads and merchandise, so any kind of advertising that tries to call focus on that is quite strange... Making a bad comparison, it would be like you advertising a new show in open television, giving a lot of focus that it would be free.

* With the general exception of pornographic ones.

[AstralFire]

All that aside, holy crap at the quality. o_o

[wizbenny]

While I will admit most comic "strips" are free... some of the only full page web comic "books" I've seen try to charge or are "teaser" content for a pay book or something. Dreamland Chronicles being the exception.

I just didn't want to be lumped in with the "oh... something that's trying to trick us" crowd. LOL. Maybe I'm more suspicious of me than you guys are.


All that aside, holy crap at the quality. o_o

Thanks. I admit that was my initial reaction when I got the first pages from the artists as well. They are really doing such an AMAZING job and so I've begun the long arduous task of trying to spread the word so they can be amply rewarded in readership for their efforts.

[AstralFire]

Well... we are definitely not in your league. You've been writing for at least 3/4 of my life and you've got a full art team. But we'll help spread the word about you, and would appreciate it if you helped spread the word about us.

[wizbenny]

LOL. Way to make a fella feel old.

I really like the little animated bits. That's something that would be neat to explore.

I just followed you on Twitter, so can do some there. I'm really new to trying to network/get the word out on this stuff myself.

But as far as "league" goes, I think we're all playing in the same sandbox. I really don't see anyone as "superior" to anyone else. We're all pioneers in a new medium in essence. Those who win are those who stay at it, work hard, and grow along the way.

At least that's what I tell myself...

[wizbenny]

Astral,

Thanks for your support on Kickstarter!

DEFINITELY appreciate it my friend.

I hope you're enjoying the comic as well.

[AstralFire]

As I said - I'm definitely interested to see where it goes. :smallcool:

[wizbenny]

It's much appreciated.

Today's comic made my daughter sad though. She liked the Warden.

[AstralFire]

I just realized why there are so many greek names. Doy.

[wizbenny]

Well technically, there are NO Greek names in the book. Nada.

Heh.

[Morph Bark]

Looks like the wayword sons aren't in Kansas anymore...

Hadn't heard of this before, but looks fairly nice. Guess I should save it to read later.

[wizbenny]

Well we update daily, monday through friday... so why wait? Heh.

In all seriousness, though, as long as people are reading, that's what matters most.

[wizbenny]

Curious as to what people think of the story so far.

[Robberbaron]

I'm finding it worth the time to read it daily, interested in finding out what these transformations are caused by.

[wizbenny]

"Worth the time" is all I can ask. :smallbiggrin:

[factotum]

It's certainly interesting to see where it's going, and the art quality is extremely good. Just hope you can maintain this without burning out and leaving the story half finished! :smallwink:

[wizbenny]

That's assuming there is a "finish." LOL.

There IS... but that's an entirely different comic. Heh.

In all seriousness, though, I'd be quite happy to continue doing this for the next 20-30 years or more. Really love working with my guys.

[wizbenny]

OK First full issue finished today.

So, would love to hear what people thought. Was it a surprise? Did you see it coming a million miles away? If you saw it coming, was it still enjoyable?

[wizbenny]

Did I meet anyone from here at San Diego Comic Con?

Met SO many people and always forgot to ask them where they were "from."

[lord_khaine]

Well, so far interesting, and the art is very good as well.

There is one thing i find strange though, Zeus says Kronos is his oldest friend and mentor, why then does it seems like that Kronos is a complete monster with no regard for the life of others.

[PhantomFox]

I'm impressed. As mentioned by others, the art is great. The story is interesting, with an interesting concept: the origin of myths as caused by sci fi characters. It probably has been done before, but I don't remember where off hand, and honestly what hasn't been done at least once? Yes, the twist was good, and not too obvious.

I'm also noting some usage of parallels there, which is interesting, and the characters are slowly developing themselves, which is good as well. Good work, keep it up.

[Adlan]

I liked the Hera = Zeus's ex wife. Nice touch there.

[wizbenny]

Well, so far interesting, and the art is very good as well.

There is one thing i find strange though, Zeus says Kronos is his oldest friend and mentor, why then does it seems like that Kronos is a complete monster with no regard for the life of others.

We'll show how they grew apart in time. Kronos went down a VERY dark path of no return due to his own conceits. It doesn't mean he wasn't a good leader or that he was incapable of doing good things. History is littered with leaders who have been willing to get their hands dirty, and they've been revered as heroes.

Kronos, however (little insight here) was the original captain that Suras (Zeus) served under alongside Saiden. Kronos gave Suras his commission as Captain of the Ulympea in fact.

[wizbenny]

I liked the Hera = Zeus's ex wife. Nice touch there.

Yeah there's a fun story there still to tell...

What was fun about the Convention special was I actually have pretty in-depth bios and exclusive art in them detailing each of the 18 main characters! Hara's was a lot of fun.

[wizbenny]

I'm impressed. As mentioned by others, the art is great. The story is interesting, with an interesting concept: the origin of myths as caused by sci fi characters. It probably has been done before, but I don't remember where off hand, and honestly what hasn't been done at least once? Yes, the twist was good, and not too obvious.

I'm also noting some usage of parallels there, which is interesting, and the characters are slowly developing themselves, which is good as well. Good work, keep it up.

To be honest, the closest I can recall was an episode of the original Star Trek where they showed the Greek gods were aliens who had eaten some exotic fruit and gained psionic powers. There was a midget and a chess board involved, and I think Apollo was the only god left...

I never really liked the way that story played out, personally... but I can't say it didn't give me a kernal of an idea. Anyone who says that they're not influenced by outside creative forces is a liar.

What's important, however, is where you go with those inspirations. Hopefully everyone enjoys it as much as I enjoy making them.

[Southern Cross]

Actually wizbenny, having recently watched Plato's Stepchildren I have to say that you're confusing it with the earlier Who Mourns for Adonais? which took place in the previous season of Star Trek: The Original Series.
While both stories featured aliens who visited ancient Greece, the Platonists weren't worshiped as gods, largely because they didn't have their awesome telekinetic powers until they had been consuming the kironide-rich foods of their new home for several months. (And the dwarf Alexander was the victim of all their bullying because he had no such powers due to his defective pituitary gland).

[wizbenny]

Yeah it was a fuzzy memory at best... which just underscores that I didn't really "take" it from there. LOL...

Today (if my tracking is correct) should mark a MAJOR milestone...

Though I'm loathe to tout numbers in general, we should hit ONE MILLION PAGEVIEWS since launch.

Which I'm excited about given that we're barely out of our second month since launch. That's way ahead of schedule.

[Domochevsky]

You schedule your pageviews? :smallwink:

[wizbenny]

No, I had a PROJECTIONS schedule of where I expected to be at certain points. We're way ahead... which is good.

I always like to under-predict and over-perform. To continue our Star Trek references... I like to do it how Scotty does. Heh. Makes me look like a miracle-worker.

[Domochevsky]

Tsk, Scotty is the most brazen liar i've ever seen. :smallbiggrin:

("Oh yeah, that will totally take 2 weeks." *flips a switch* "Oh, look, i fixed it early!")

[Miklus]

This is looking really good, I agree with the others on the art.

I have only read to where they crash, but so far I like the story.

And this updates every weekday?! That's just crazy. Most other comics only do one page a week, if even that.

[wizbenny]

Thanks! We actually now update every day...

Monday - Friday are stories.

Saturday - Sunday are bios, pin-ups, extra artwork, and guest content.

Hope you like the rest of the comic! I personally think Issue #3 is my favorite, but I'll probably say that when I'm working on Issue #4 that it's my favorite, and so on.

[Robberbaron]

How far in advance do y'all work?

[MelWhite]

Really nice work. The schedule is a busy one -- how do you fund the folks working on it (or are they doing it just for kicks/portfolio cred)?

[wizbenny]

How far in advance do y'all work?

Pencils are about 3 weeks in advance.

Inks are about 2 weeks.

Colors are about 1 week.

Edits & Letters (that's me) sometimes are up to the night before! LOL.

[wizbenny]

Really nice work. The schedule is a busy one -- how do you fund the folks working on it (or are they doing it just for kicks/portfolio cred)?

Sorry, that's very personal info. ;-) I know that's not the intention, but it's akin to asking, "How much do you make?"

But thanks for liking our work.

[Glass Mouse]

I really like this comic (partly because I'm a sucker for Greek mythology), and it's definitely been added to my bookmarks.

One thing, though, since I see that you've started to put up artwork and random stuff in the weekend... Maybe take that stuff down after a week or so and put it under "Artwork" or something. As is, it's gonne disrupt the flow whenever someone archive binges (though it definitely is some sweet artwork).
Just a small piece of advice (from a complete amateur, so feel free to ignore it) :smallsmile:

[Cen]

Well, the art and story still aren't as good as in Dominic Deegan but I like it anway :-)


But honestly... it's awesome! In first post you say that it's some kind of a prequel? a prequel to what may I ask? is it of some greater, bigger comic or something? Maybe i'm a noob but here in Poland I've never heard of it..

[wizbenny]

I really like this comic (partly because I'm a sucker for Greek mythology), and it's definitely been added to my bookmarks.

One thing, though, since I see that you've started to put up artwork and random stuff in the weekend... Maybe take that stuff down after a week or so and put it under "Artwork" or something. As is, it's gonne disrupt the flow whenever someone archive binges (though it definitely is some sweet artwork).
Just a small piece of advice (from a complete amateur, so feel free to ignore it) :smallsmile:

I think we've seen with numerous other comics examples such as PVP and others that have "guest comics" and other stuff in their archives that this doesn't hurt. Even Evil-Inc has bio pages or side gags on the weekend that are outside of the story. So it's fairly common practice.

Further, part of the allure of guest comic artists is that their work will be a PERSISTENT ad for them in the archive itself. And I'm happy to provide that. The overall feeling (and there was a poll) was unanimously "More content = better."

So the "extras" on the weekend were started, taking us essentially from 5 pages a week to 7.

All advice and comments, however ARE appreciated and never outright discounted.

[wizbenny]

Well, the art and story still aren't as good as in Dominic Deegan but I like it anway :-)

But honestly... it's awesome! In first post you say that it's some kind of a prequel? a prequel to what may I ask? is it of some greater, bigger comic or something? Maybe i'm a noob but here in Poland I've never heard of it..

Sorry don't know Dominic Deegan. But if you provide a link... Is that your comic?

It's a prequel to both another comic (forthcoming... more on that soon) and the movie that's in development with Red Giant Media. But it's ongoing and separate.

[Cen]

Sorry don't know Dominic Deegan. But if you provide a link... Is that your comic?

Umm yes, it's a webcomic but thank God it's not mine. It was an irony, because DD is constantly mocked for its' bad quality of both art AND story.
Oh, and sory I won't provide a link beacause DD has some kind of weird brain-bleaching effect on artists and it could affect you work.


It's a prequel to both another comic (forthcoming... more on that soon) and the movie that's in development with Red Giant Media. But it's ongoing and separate.
Oh! Awesome!

[wizbenny]

Umm yes, it's a webcomic but thank God it's not mine. It was an irony, because DD is constantly mocked for its' bad quality of both art AND story. Oh, and sory I won't provide a link beacause DD has some kind of weird brain-bleaching effect on artists and it could affect you work.

LOL... oh okay.

Last I saw there were something like 16,000 Webcomics out there in the world (at least). So I don't profess to know of even 1% of them...

I personally make it a point, however, to never attack someone else's work myself. It's a karma thing for me. :smallsmile:

The one NICE thing about Webcomics is that (in general) we're not really ever COMPETING with one another. Because our product is free, I never see the need to try to dissuade someone from other comics. In fact, I absolutely love and enjoy so many Webcomics myself. It's a morning ritual to go through those (by memory) that I check on the days they update.

[Barmacral]

Having caught up on this comic, I definitely quite like it and have bookmarked it as part of my daily webcomic routine (yeah, its a morning ritual for me too)

[wizbenny]

Thanks. I think we're really hitting our stride now story-wise and art-wise. It's funny how every writer I talk to says that they HATE the introduction bits of their comics. I tend to agree. But it's like the foundation of a house... have to have it or the whole thing falls in on itself.

(My dad was a carpenter so I use a lot of building homes analogies).

By the way, we're working on trying to get RSS feed as a good link-through for people to use. The tech folks are working on that.

The problem has been that our comic is a full PAGE (700x1000 pixels!) so we're either going to have to auto-shrink or auto-crop it with a link back to our page for folks. Hopefully that will make all the people clamoring for an RSS happy...

[wizbenny]

The aforementioned RSS feed and new site design is live BTW

[wizbenny]

Okay, if you haven't been reading regularly or any of this current issue (#4) since the beginning... I'm warning people to start HERE (http://waywardsons.keenspot.com/d/20100913.html) and do NOT visit the homepage today.

I normally don't do this, but there's a HUGE event today that would be a major spoiler if you just landed on it.

[factotum]

Hmmm. Icky, if he just did what I think he did...although odd choice of sound effect... :smallsmile:

[Domochevsky]

Hmmm. Icky, if he just did what I think he did...although odd choice of sound effect... :smallsmile:


Yeah, i don't quite get it. Is he holding her head? How does that fit with the soundeffect? How did it come off? >_>

[PhantomFox]

As far as I can tell, he teleported himself and JUST her head (that he was holding) a few feet away.

[Domochevsky]

As far as I can tell, he teleported himself and JUST her head (that he was holding) a few feet away.

I find that metaphysically questionable. :smallcool:

[factotum]

Given the dialogue about "getting inside her head" I thought he'd somehow teleported something inside it which caused it to explode...struck me as more of a SPLAT than a FAZH. :smallsmile:

Mind you, looking at it again that definitely appears to be her head he's holding in the second-to-last panel, so I guess my observation skills need touching up!

[Glass Mouse]

I normally don't do this, but there's a HUGE event today that would be a major spoiler if you just landed on it.

Sorry if this seems contrary, but...

Killing a character that the readers have known for... ten pages? isn't really "huge". It's more of a signal of "things are getting serious!"
Personally, I was more confusing (see all comments above mine) than saddened or shocked, really. The discovery of the star core was more of a surprise.

No offense, though. I still check out your comic every day :smallsmile:

[wizbenny]

I dunno... I was getting TONS of email from people saying she was their NEW favorite character. And she'd been featured on the cover, had a bio feature, and was the star of the whole issue not just 10 pages. Unless you're not counting her appearances when she was morphed as someone else. LOL.

People were suitably upset that a major character got killed off (which I want to establish IS not only possible, but likely to happen.)

And it's highly possible to teleport just a PART of someone away. But since teleporters are often usually just the good guys or unimaginative, we have rarely seen it. I say rarely, because this isn't the first instance of this happening. We've also seen teleporters teleport someone halfway into solid objects or teleport something solid INTO them.

But yeah... he's clearly holding her head. And the FAZH sound effect was established on the Doctor's first appearance waaay back in Issue #2

[PhantomFox]

A goat-man named Pawn? Must refer to Pan. So... a Greek mythological figure who is ALSO an adviser to the Egyptian Big Bad. Anyone smell a Heel Face Turn coming?

To anyone who knows their myths, these foreshadowings could almost be spoilers. Unless you know we know, and are planning on subverting it. Oi, I've gone crosseyed.

[wizbenny]

And just to screw with you... it could ALSO refer to "fawn" as well (another name for Satyrs).

But remember "greek" reference doesn't mean good any more than Egyptian means bad. Kronos and Typhon (for instance) are Greek references... and they're far from saintly.

In other news, did anyone see the cover pencils for the tradepaper? I'm giddy about it.

[Gez]

Faun, not fawn. :smallwink:

[wizbenny]

Yes... faun. Pronounced the same, regardless (and the characters are phonetic amalgams... being the point).

Gilgamesh (as we say it) for instance, isn't likely even close to how it was originally pronounced or spelled.

Jesus is another fun name that's not even CLOSE to the original Yēšûă‘...

The misrepresentations of oral tradition, transliteration, transcription, anglicizing, romanization, etc are fun aspects we explore in the series.

[Master_Rahl22]

I like the artwork, and I must say that ancient Greek mythology always struck me as a bunch of superheroes so I love that take on things.

My main complaint was the 2 dimensional bad guys. Someone made a comment when Kronos started his flashback about how he was practicing serial puppy drowning. It's true that he just seems like an all around bad guy and Obviously Evil (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ObviouslyEvil) mixed with Evil Overlord (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EvilOverlord) and the parts of the flashback we've seen have done nothing to mitigate that.

[factotum]

We're only three strips into the flashback, give it a chance! Anyway, Kronos strikes me as being the typical villain who doesn't believe he's a villain--I get the impression that he decided his way was the best way forward for everyone, and everyone else happened to disagree, which surprised and annoyed him somewhat...

[Glass Mouse]

My main complaint was the 2 dimensional bad guys. Someone made a comment when Kronos started his flashback about how he was practicing serial puppy drowning. It's true that he just seems like an all around bad guy and Obviously Evil (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ObviouslyEvil) mixed with Evil Overlord (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EvilOverlord) and the parts of the flashback we've seen have done nothing to mitigate that.

Yeah, I'm looking forward to how this flashback plays out. I felt the same as you, Rahl, that the villains are somewhat bland (sorry, wizbenny).
In any case, no matter what this flashback will reveal, it seems unlikely that he's still a Well Intentioned Extremist (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WellIntentionedExtremist) after having been imprisoned - just look at the company he willingly keeps.

Still, I hope he's a more interesting character when this flashback is over :smallsmile:

[wizbenny]

So, was today's reveal enlightening?

And yes, so far the villains HAD been somewhat flat. Villains are the hardest to develop, because (thankfully) they're the hardest for people to relate to. Take a look at most great villains. Lex Luthor, Magneto, Dr. Doom, and so on. They all have their individual psychoses, and started out as seemingly "mwuhaha" villains in their earliest appearances. It wasn't until YEARS later that they evolved beyond this.

We're only in issue 5 and Kronos has only really been seen in issue 1 and 2 to date. So painting with a broad brush of "This is the bad guy" was inevitable. We only had time to establish that this is a guy who WILL kill a leader to conquer a people. But we didn't show his motivation (yet) of why he would. We have shown that he decides to lead by force (but not fully yet why he thinks this decision is the best one).

So I take no offense to criticism that he's been 2 dimensional to date. That was unavoidable. But that starts to change a bit with this issue, but it will still take time. All in all, however, I think issue 5 puts us ahead of the curve as far as villain development goes.

It's a big cast and I personally prefer to reveal characters primarily through their actions (or inactions) over time rather than providing huge exposition that would feel forced and cheap in my book.

FYI-- If you wanna talk about 2D villains, Richard Rahl's father was as 2D "mwuhaha" of a villain as they come! (Little Terry Goodkind reference for anyone reading this and confused).

[wizbenny]

Yeah, I'm looking forward to how this flashback plays out. I felt the same as you, Rahl, that the villains are somewhat bland (sorry, wizbenny).
In any case, no matter what this flashback will reveal, it seems unlikely that he's still a Well Intentioned Extremist (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WellIntentionedExtremist) after having been imprisoned - just look at the company he willingly keeps.

Still, I hope he's a more interesting character when this flashback is over :smallsmile:

I hope you think he's more interesting as well.

And I'd say maybe he's not so much an extremist, as his is a well-intentioned strategist who's seen enough bloodshed to be deluded into believing that the ends justify the means.

That, and he's incredibly egotistical. He was the greatest hero and military mind in the galaxy... that's a pretty high pedestal to fall off of.

And as for the company he keeps, we'll see more on that soon too.

But we've already seen that not every Tytan is "bad."

[Onyavar]

First off: I like this comic quite much, since it has a high drawing quality and the story is quite good (if you don't know the greek legends).

But everyone who knows a little bit about greek mythology will find maaany weak points in the way how the story unfolds. The "superpowers" are all well placed and explained, also the job positions in Olymp. But many things are off: - the relationship between the gods (Granted, the whole genealogical tree of the greek gods is just plain crazy, but Cassandra or Heracles weren't part of the Olympean cast at the start, Cassandra was a human killed in the Trojan war.)
- geographical distances (Greece, Mesopotamia and Egypt aren't exactly around each other's next corner)
- timeline (The pyramids in Egypt were already built for almost 2000 years before Hesiod compiled the greek legends, and the descriptions of the greek gods more matches the iron age)
I disliked especially the mixup with the egyptian and sumerian legends, since those are thousands of years older.

The so called "suspension of disbelief" could never take over for me, I never thought "wow, this is how it could have happened in the greek myths", but saw this comic as "superheros in an obscure ancient/classic/medieval setting" from the start.

And as such, it is a great comic, I hasten to add!

[wizbenny]

Ummm I'm loathe to correct a reader, but actually you're quite wrong on numerous accounts...

First... they crash landed way over 5,000 years ago. LOL. The date of their crash was never revealed. So, yes, that's the first Pyramid inspiration.

This isn't "greek" mythos yet and the "Greek classical" period won't start for quite some time.

No, those areas aren't "close" to one another, which is why if you read that even with a character who flies... weeks and months occur between issues.

And lastly, this is NOT a retelling of Greek, or Egyptian, or any myths. These are the stories of the beings who INSPIRED those myths. Myths that ancient mankind (surprise surprise) would obviously get WRONG in an oral tradition as viewed through their primitive understanding of what they were witnessing...

It's FANTASY through the eyes of SCIENCE FICTION. It's completely new stories with characters who are familiar but break the boundaries of culture, character types, etc.

FYI... we will likely NOT even touch on the Greek mythos until possibly 2012 at current rate of production. We're still in ANCIENT Egypt roughly a hundred years before the first CONSTRUCTED Pyramid (which was around 3000 BC). ;-)

There's a global timeline of overlapping events that was plotted out over the course of a decade and a half of prep-time.

[Onyavar]

Ummm I'm loathe to correct a reader, but actually you're quite wrong on numerous accounts...

I stand corrected and apologize - this was the kind of answer I was hoping for. Thanks for giving me the hint about your timeframe, I'm likely to sleep easier now ;-)

The business with the Nemean Lion was giving me the impression that you are mangling all the stories together - after your post it is now clear for me that I was totally wrong on that account.

The geographic issue is still not entirely clear - for me as a reader it seems that Hwamba arrives near to Olymp around two days or two weeks after the crash - given a distance of 1200~2000 km between the two crash sites, this seemed to be a strange coincidence. Also the ~2000 km distance between Uruk and Olymp looked a bit exhausting for Hermaz in that issue...

Just today there was another odd thing. The meeting of Suras and Kronos was baffling me - I mean, could you imagine a meeting of Lee and Grant before either side was defeated?
Of course, every strip has many details running in the background and a meticulous elaboration of every detail would be as annoying to tell as it would be to read. So of course, the Suras-Kronos meeting is quite realistic.

Well, I guess you get these questions a lot, and don't want my overly criticism and unsolicited wisecracking to be the reason for holdups in your creative process.

So take your time, I'm curious how the story will unfold.

[wizbenny]

I think you'll be surprised at the outcome...

On the surface, you could surmise that Kronos and Suras meeting in private would be natural given their extremely close relationships with one another. Lee and Grant were never best friends, nor did they have a father/son type of close relationship.... so the analogy fails. However, that's just on the surface. We'll see more in the coming week.

And the Nemean, Hm'bawa is a great example. It's not a mangling, it's the fact that the same creator or being could easily be seen or interpreted by others two ways. The people in ancient greece region hear the name "It's a Nemean" and that term gets handed down in oral tradition as Hurk battles a Nemean... to eventually "Heracles battles the Nemean Lion" by the time the people who would later settle the region and be called GREEKS arrive. That's how oral traditions work as new people enter and hear the native stories, then change them.

Meanwhile, when he fled to ancient Mesapotamia, he declared his name, which could get garbled over the centuries into Humbaba. And, since Hurk wasn't around very long, but he did leave behind his progeny who would go on to be a great king "2/3 God... and born of 2 men." then they would naturally ascribe the feat of defeating Humbaba to Gilgamesh.

Myths are not historical records, and they often changed and contradicted one another.

What WS: Legends does is looks at them as the backdrop but not a restraint. Also you'll find that many of the same people will have multiple names they're known by as the millennia pass.

In essence, as it says in the description... this is the story of the aliens who would INSPIRE all myths, legends and fairy tales. The stories we know were wrong, but the people were very real.

[factotum]

I'm a bit confused about the latest few strips. Why did Kronos' hair go from brown when the explosion aboard his cruiser happened that caused his scar to grey in the trial scene in the next strip? There's no indication that there's any great time difference between the two strips!

[wizbenny]

It's actually not brown... the power went off after the explosion, so it's just darker. It's still white before and after and during. It's just dark in there. ;-)

[AstralFire]

I just caught up. It's going pretty well. Keep it up.

[factotum]

It's actually not brown... the power went off after the explosion, so it's just darker. It's still white before and after and during. It's just dark in there. ;-)

A-ha! I should have realised that, considering that he didn't even have brown hair in the earlier flashback scenes... :smallfrown:

[AstralFire]

...Okay, that's rough. I presume then, that Nyssus was not Nyx but Dionysius, since that would take care of all Zeus' children and apparently none of 'em are gonna have kids.

[wizbenny]

Yeah, this is NOT the typical start to a "Holiday Special."

Of course, I don't try to do things the typical manner anyway. LOL.

BTW... cool fun fact... the HOLIDAY SPECIAL will finish on December 24th. How's THAT for planning ahead?

[wizbenny]

Nysus' identity (analog) should now be obvious as you said...

Now only ONE of the main deck crew's abilities have been revealed.

[Originalsloth]

I swear Benny, I try to do something to help advertise my favourite comic and what do ya know, not only did you get here first, you've been here for months!

I swear that'll teach me to just read the comic and not check the forum!

Suppose I'll get back to making my character ready for his cameo. The Egyptian Wars can't come quickly enough :p

[Agi Hammerthief]

just bookmarking
the art looks appealing :smallsmile:

[wizbenny]

I swear Benny, I try to do something to help advertise my favourite comic and what do ya know, not only did you get here first, you've been here for months!

I swear that'll teach me to just read the comic and not check the forum!

Suppose I'll get back to making my character ready for his cameo. The Egyptian Wars can't come quickly enough :p

I can't help it... LOL... this is one of the FEW forums I post in tho. :-) Cuz let's face it... it's a cool comic and forum.

But I DO appreciate you helping spread the word anyway. :-)

[Imgran]

Well, all this world building and character establishing is sure fun, you've given yourself a lot of characters to plow through all at the same time, which was a choice with advantages and disadvantages, I do feel that aping the Greek pantheon brings as many weaknesses as it does strengths to the narrative, since it instantly typecasts your characters and it may limit their growth, but that's a style choice as much as anything and with such a large cast, growth would be slow in coming anyway.

You've already contradicted yourself at least once, I think, by allowing for Gilgamesh while not allowing Hyadez and Sefani to have a child, a little more explanation of why it worked like that might help -- I see a couple of ways that could manage to not be a contradiction, but you need to bridge to them. Other than that, not a terrible start, but I'd caution you against spending too much longer just getting started. It's been a fair while now and we're still not even fully underway with actual plots other than "Here Be Characters, Aren't They Interesting!"

Speaking of, you may be well advised to work in the remaining intros you've got planned as an advancing plot allows, rather than holding off on all further actual plot until all set pieces are in place. We don't need to know everything about who these people are and what they do before stuff starts happening, sometimes a power discovered in the actual heat of battle is more interesting. This is an area where I feel aping the Pantheon hurts, because even if you hadn't developed the characters' powers early (and with all the finesse of an augur drill) it would still have been more or less obvious what they were -- a significant potential plot point lost.

By far the most interesting part of the strip thus far was the one arc with Ninsun that wasn't an overly contrived attempt to introduce New Character Dejour and their latest "Looks like a job for Aquaman" (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ThisLooksLikeAJobForAquaman) power. Do more of that, less of the other, and I'll be more than satisfied with the product i'm reading.

[Toxic Avenger]

You've already contradicted yourself at least once, I think, by allowing for Gilgamesh while not allowing Hyadez and Sefani to have a child, a little more explanation of why it worked like that might help --Actually, Benny has already explained this, first on the same page that Sefani was introduced and again later on. If a fetus has both parents powered by the Star Core, it literally burns out before it reaches term. This does not happen when only one parent is Star Core powered.

[factotum]

This is an area where I feel aping the Pantheon hurts, because even if you hadn't developed the characters' powers early (and with all the finesse of an augur drill) it would still have been more or less obvious what they were -- a significant potential plot point lost.


I disagree with this, actually. Look at Nysus--he is clearly meant to be Dionysus from Greek mythology, but his power has to do with time manipulation! I don't think you'd ever have guessed that in advance.

[Imgran]

The specifics may not be that easy to guess, but it's not the specifics I'm fretting about, it's the generalities. The powers we know the Greek gods had will manifest in some form, and the skeleton of the plots will tie into Old World myths. Makes it a little too easy to see ahead.

We didn't need to know that Nysus could manipulate time to know he was going to play a big role in there suddenly being wine for the party, we didn't need to know that Cassandra would make water boil and have to strip to her skin to know that she would see the future, we knew that Andora would cause some kinda trouble before she provided personal proof that the "gods" could still die, and so on ad infinitum. Too much of the future of this strip right now looks to be stuck in areas that are at least hinted at if not outright pushed on us by a basic knowledge of Greek mythology and the Pantheon in particular.

There are so few actual deviations from the central core of Greek mythology, and those are insignificantly minor in the context of the real question here, that question being "how much of the actual plot for the next several episodes do I already know based on the set pieces, the concept of the strip and a general working knowledge of Greek mythology?" The answer is simply "too much." Sets the writing standard too high when you're trying to maintain suspense with so much already known or guessable and most of the new stuff being simply minor details.

Just for the record, not looking forward to Prometheus getting caught by Kronos and ruthlessly punished. Gonna happen, we all know it was going to happen just as soon as there was a character named Permythe, especially now that it turns out he's working against Kronos from within his camp. But it's gonna happen and it won't be pretty. This is what I mean about "guessable." The only possible surprise here would be Permythe getting away clean, and call it a hunch, but I'd call that unlikely.

Also... I gotta say this. You're walking so close to the edge in terms of mythological names that you might as well jump in with both feet. All you're accomplishing with these creative respelling of the character names is a vaguely insulting failed attempt at plausible deniability centered around characters who have been in the public domain longer than there's been a public domain. The only possible value here is a lesson in language drift, and that's not worth that insult I mentioned above.

[Agi Hammerthief]

great art, but feels awfully predictable the whole thing

[Imgran]

And that's Agi Hammerthief, ladies and gents, proving once again that more words are not necessarily the best way to get your point across. That's basically what I tried to say, condensed into its essence.

Coulda been a great comic, if the writers understood a little more about dramatic tension and narrative flow, and not choked the opening of the story with a sticky gray mass of character intro. Basically my problem is that the writing in the character intro fails the basic premise, "show, don't tell." Show them doing stuff outside the carefully contrived perfectly safe laboratory conditions in which most of them found their powers. Even when they are doing something, it's copiously explained, before or afterward, in a way that leaves me burying my face in my hands and saying "you really don't have a high opinion of my intelligence as a reader at all, do you?"

And for added bonuses, could you maybe not have them go from totally clueless as to what their powers were to complete and total 100% mastery of the subtlest aspects of the ability? It's just that you're losing so much suspense when you do it that way, and since you're following one of the most well-trodden literary paths in the history of the entire world (Greek mythology) suspense is a precious resource, like water in the desert.

Not to mention that you started out with as much cast creep as many 9 year old webcomics without even establishing who the main characters are going to be yet (you're going to have to pick sooner or later, since running the narrative at least 14 different ways like you're doing now is going to kill any hope of narrative focus you have). The result is unfocused, a little derivative, and really rather blah. Not unsalvageable, but there better be some progress made on the writing end of things if you want to keep my attention at least.

[Originalsloth]

By having characters we know, we are able to instantly relate; we know who they are, their rough backstory and their motivations even if it is a different take on them. It allows us to jump straight in and know them. Fine, they aren't truly original characters, but there's always something comforting about the familiar.

Sometimes it isn't the originality of the story, it's how it's told. When you watch a Saw movie, you know a bunch of people will be put in dangerous situations, most will die and the protagonist will get away. When you watch a superhero movie, a villain will show up and the hero will (with some difficulty) triumph. In an Alien movie most people die, in a rom-com they get together in the end, and in the ultimate example when you watched Lord of the Rings, you knew Frodo would get to mount doom and drop the ring into the volcano. Knowing all this, you watch it anyway, because what matters isn't what's told but HOW it's told. Wayward Sons is a new version of an old story, let's just enjoy it for what it is, not for what it isn't (and was never meant to be anyway).

*dons flameproof suit*

Chas the OriginalSloth

[Imgran]

Believe me, "derivative" is well down there on my list of flaws of this strip. In fact it's barely noticeable behind the near to utter lack of suspence, pacing, dramatic tension or narrative focus.

These guys are telling a story like that creepy guy at the gaming session that can't freaking shut up about their character, and all the other characters he's created, and what it would be like if they were all in a world together, is telling a story.

The dominant question in any story is "and then what happened?" If the only answer I get is "and then there was this new character, and look what HE can do," that gets old fast. DO SOMETHING. There have only been 2 arcs in the entire run since they landed on Earth that STUFF ACTUALLY HAPPENED. More. Please. And some reason to relate to the characters? A bit of actual humanity (or, you know, whateverity)? Would be nice. You've made a brave try there with the recent Hyadez but fallen short, made worse by the sudden segue into the origin story of Santa -- more is needed to establish these characters as actual dynamic characters rather than archetypes.

I feel the fundamental problem here stems from a severe underestimation of the reader. We can understand these little subtleties without you taking the time to point them out and explain them in laborious detail. The job of the narrator is to make stuff happen. Beyond a certain responsibility not to be needlessly ambiguous, understanding what happened is the job of the audience. All this explanation is basically doing our jobs as readers for us, and it serves to take us out of the process of the story, which can't be what you guys are aiming for

It's really better not to spoonfeed an audience if you want to keep them engaged in the narrative. Letting some mysteries stand and leaving things unexplained, unknown or indefinite are the keys to narrative flow and dramatic tension, as well as encouraging engagement in threads like this. All of that is missing in Wayward Sons and it's the reason I'm registering such dissatisfaction. The conversation that a story needs to have with the reader is all taking place on the page, and that excludes me in a way I don't like.

Basically what I'm getting at is, we know Poseidon manages water and Hades manages the "underworld." We know that from our basic understanding of Greek mythology. So why do work you don't have to by sitting there and explaining all that? Why not just name these guys Zeus, Apollo, Hera, etc. and then expect people to know who that is? And when, later on in the battle with Kronos, when Poseidon pulls a trident out of his robes and starts throwing water around, most of us could figure out how that happened. And when Hades starts throwing rock around, most of us would just raise an eyebrow at that definition of "underworld" and swallow it in suspension of disbelief. Instead it's all explained, and will be long since stale by the time stuff actually happens and oh god this could have been a good premise if you'd just started with the action at first and worked the power intros directly into it instead of what you did!

[Agi Hammerthief]

And that's Agi Hammerthief, ladies and gents, proving once again that more words are not necessarily the best way to get your point across. That's basically what I tried to say, ...
sorry for not reading that, my attention span is as short as most of my comments :smallwink:

apart from the overall impression that the story was catalogue ordered at TV-Tropes,
after n-Seasons of Stargate I can't take another "teh gods where aliens" instalment.

[Imgran]

the overall impression that the story was catalogue ordered at TV-Tropes,

And there's another one. Your posts are short, but they're very pithy, and you're saying what I'm trying to say with ridiculously fewer words. Keep it up.

[John Campbell]

So this comic is about strippers and dudes that have never seen a woman before, right?

I quit before getting any significant distance into the archive because of how long it takes to load all of the pop-up crap and other extraneous junk on every. single. page., so I'm judging by the advertising that's been plastered all over like half of the FREE webcomics I read.

[Agi Hammerthief]

I quit before getting any significant distance into the archive because of how long it takes to load all of the pop-up crap
etc.
ach, c'mon get Firefox and the plugin Adblock+ allready

[Gez]

So this comic is about strippers and dudes that have never seen a woman before, right?

Maybe. (http://waywardsons.keenspot.com/d/20101205.html)

The message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 10 characters.

[Imgran]

Warning to the makers of Wayward Sons in the wake of this update.

You are riiight on the borderline of attracting a fair bit of attention from Christians, some good, some bad. Like your thing with the Greek god names, don't think that a handful of cosmetic changes are going to CYA if that's what you're going for. People are not that stupid. There's enough in common between "The Fates" and the Nicene God that there is NFW it's an accident.

Focus on coming up with credible narratives and actual dramatic tension rather than stealing tropes and ideas from every bit of theology ever. These bits of backstory would be much more palatable if they were worked into the ongoing plot rather than making the plot wait for them.

[Imgran]

I am falling in hate with this webcomic. I think I know how the Dominic Deegan snarkers feel now. Is anything going to require actual effort ever again for the Ulympean gods?

There's no story here. Just a selection of scenes written by a guy who should be sticking to back-corner fanfics and who has no idea what gets people interested in a character.

[PhantomFox]

That's a bit harsh. Can we tone down the vitriol a bit? You're getting awfully close to flaming, and even in the DD threads, the criticism is against the work, not the author.

That said, there may be some validity to the complaints raised. Namely, that 1) as it stands, anyone with knowledge of mythology will have a rough guide to what will happen, 2) there is a tad bit of unnecessary power exposition, 3) the main storyline feels like it's been put on hold since the infiltration (with a flashback and a seemingly unrelated holiday story), and 4) the large cast is somewhat hindering emotional attachment to any one person. (I have a problem remember who everyone is sometimes)

However, in its defense, I have been enjoying it so far. The art is good, and the updates are consistent, frequent, and on time, which is a lot more than I can say for a lot of comics. Although I had not really been ... engaged in the story for a bit, I haven't been turned off. Although I must agree that the last weekend filler is treading on thin ice. There is an implication that modern religion is derived from that of the main cast, but twisted or misinterpreted in the same way that the myths were misinterpreted versions of the 'true' events. This in turn implies that modern religion is false, and that will raise a few hackles, let me tell you.

All that non-withstanding, once the plot gets back on track and picks up the pace, some of these problems will go away. And I'm sure *cough* Constructive criticism will be taken well, and any persisting issues will be corrected.

Fridge Logic moment: How did Hades build an entire city? Did he have the blueprints of an entire city in his mind? I don't think he would have enough time to plan it all out.

[Nibleswick]

I have to say, I have been quite impressed with this comic. I've rather liked the quieter approach to some very old tales. It's more about the people in the adventures than the adventures themselves. On the other hand though there is still some adventure to spice things up and balance things out.

Oh, and HOLY COW, that is not the kind of art I was expecting for just and idea that's been rattling around for a while.:smalltongue:

[factotum]

There is an implication that modern religion is derived from that of the main cast, but twisted or misinterpreted in the same way that the myths were misinterpreted versions of the 'true' events. This in turn implies that modern religion is false, and that will raise a few hackles, let me tell you.
.
.
.
Fridge Logic moment: How did Hades build an entire city? Did he have the blueprints of an entire city in his mind? I don't think he would have enough time to plan it all out.

I don't see that it makes any comment about modern religion at all. It is well known that 25th December was chosen as the date for Christmas because it happened to be a big pre-existing pagan festival--the actual date of Jesus' birth is open for debate. The trappings of modern Christmas we're seeing here are fairly recent inventions in any case--Father Christmas wearing a red and white suit is as recent an invention as the Second World War, I believe. If anything, that's the problem I have with the current storyline--why would everybody forget about this figure in red and white for 2000+ years and then suddenly start using him again?

As for the Fridge Logic, Haydez *did* say that he'd been practicing this for weeks--plenty of time to plan out a city design. I would be interested to know why he chose the design he did, though. (And, for that matter, what benefit the Ulympeans will get from living in draughty stone halls rather than their nice heated starship! :smallwink:).

[Gez]

the actual date of Jesus' birth is open for debate.
If anything, it was not in winter because there wouldn't be shepherds out at night with their sheep at this time of the year. Palestine is still in the northern hemisphere.

[PhantomFox]

Well no, the actual debate is up for debate. It's a winter solstice celebration in order to coincide with a Roman holiday. I think the reason was so they could celebrate it without getting in trouble with those persecuting them. (Nero and the like)

[Imgran]

However, in its defense, I have been enjoying it so far. The art is good, and the updates are consistent, frequent, and on time, which is a lot more than I can say for a lot of comics. Although I had not really been ... engaged in the story for a bit, I haven't been turned off. Although I must agree that the last weekend filler is treading on thin ice. There is an implication that modern religion is derived from that of the main cast, but twisted or misinterpreted in the same way that the myths were misinterpreted versions of the 'true' events. This in turn implies that modern religion is false, and that will raise a few hackles, let me tell you.

All that non-withstanding, once the plot gets back on track and picks up the pace, some of these problems will go away. And I'm sure *cough* Constructive criticism will be taken well, and any persisting issues will be corrected.

Fridge Logic moment: How did Hades build an entire city? Did he have the blueprints of an entire city in his mind? I don't think he would have enough time to plan it all out.

I care much more about story than some, and the thing that galls me most is a sense that the concept is overwhelming the plot, which should never happen. The writer needs to be disciplined enough and focused enough on the narrative and the plot that that doesn't happen.

They need to get this thing moving. Really they should have never stopped it, there is no reason they couldn't have worked these characterizations and power reveals into the main plot, focused the arc much more tightly around Zeus v. Chronos, and pushed forward much more aggressively to estabish the actual conflict. I'm not even sure that the Olympians even know where the Titans crashed down yet.

[factotum]

I'm not even sure that the Olympians even know where the Titans crashed down yet.

Given that a number of female Ulympeans stole the Star Core back from Kronos a few weeks ago I think it's reasonable to assume they know where he is!

[Imgran]

Yet another godly power upgrade with no effort made to earn, need, acquire, strive for or deserve it. And no attempt made to put Zuras into action first, ergo we have no idea what his power was before The Sword Of Awesome was born. Ergo we will have no frame of reference to grasp the significance of the sword or why it matters so much to the writer -- because he has not taken the trouble to set up the situation or make it clear why we should care.

And clearly this is going to be first of many such "upgrades." They were already powerful enough. This is getting repetitive.

[PhantomFox]

IIRC he did blast a rock with lightning accidentally once, and his name gives a good idea what it would be anyway. But yeah, I sense a montage page coming up.

[factotum]

Yet another godly power upgrade with no effort made to earn, need, acquire, strive for or deserve it. And no attempt made to put Zuras into action first, ergo we have no idea what his power was before The Sword Of Awesome was born.

You know, I'm rapidly coming to the conclusion you haven't even read the strip. Suras was clearly shown manipulating lightning not long after they first crashed!

[Tono]

I think the point is though, Yes, he can manipulate lightning but we have yet to see him do much with it to see his power put into perspective without his boost. Right now its, here take a free boost to your power which we(the audience) actually know nothing about.

[Imgran]

You know, I'm rapidly coming to the conclusion you haven't even read the strip. Suras was clearly shown manipulating lightning not long after they first crashed!

I could have been clearer on my point, but the main thing is, Zuras was not tested as to the depth, or extent of his power, or of his control of it. His power was never put to trial and found wanting. Nor did he ever wish for more power than he had, nor was it in any way necessary for him to have more for reasons he did not know but the audience does. Therefore, from strictly a reader's perspective, the actual significance of the sword is minimal -- we don't know what he could do without it if pushed to the limit, so if he's pushed to the limit now, we have no frame of reference to know how much of what he does is his power and how much is the sword's.

From a narrative perspective therefore there is absolutely no need for the sword at all. It opens no new narrative opportunities. We have never seen any of these people in a situation where their power is not adequate, even Andora was more blindsided than really overwhelmed. What significance does an upgrade have when a guy's power is already apparently infinity? Infinity plus 50 is still infinity! Furthermore, since his power was already palpably infinity WITHOUT the sword, even its loss or theft would have no impact on what he could do that is likely to resonate with the reader without a lot of intervening exposition.

At least Hurk got his hammer AFTER we'd seen him in action and gotten an idea of his limits, and for that he's earned his right to an upgrade far more than most of the other people about to get one as a literal Christmas present.

This whole escapade is beginning to seriously reek of a major Mary Sue infestation.

[PhantomFox]

At least until they start battling the Titans. One can assume they are equally overpowered.

Which reminds me, how did the girls escape capture? I never quite understood, and it feels like I missed a page somewhere.

[factotum]

Which reminds me, how did the girls escape capture? I never quite understood, and it feels like I missed a page somewhere.

They killed the good Doctor before he got a chance to warn anyone else, so who would have captured them? Presumably they got out of the Titan base the same way they got in!

Imgran, your point makes a great deal more sense now, thanks for explaining more clearly. I have to admit that I was a bit puzzled about the whole "Star Core in the sword" thing as well, but for a different reason--I was wondering why the heck the Ulympeans aren't studying the thing in hopes of finding a way to get home, or at the very least to understand more about the powers it's given them! Putting it in a sword seems, well, random...

[EDIT] And now we have an explanation: it's because someone looked into the future and told them to do this. :smallsigh: That got old before the end of series 1 of Heroes...

[Imgran]

At least until they start battling the Titans. One can assume they are equally overpowered.

Which reminds me, how did the girls escape capture? I never quite understood, and it feels like I missed a page somewhere.
Permythe helped bust them out, and besides Permythe, no one had been aware they were there so there was no reason not to just walk out. That was the one wallbanger free arc in the entire story so far, especially because it actually established that the characters are at real risk of something when they go head to head, which is the only serious bit of plot progress since the great crashdown (the Ninsun chapter is more of a side story).

To put it another way, it's the one arc that managed to dodge a Marysueitis diagnosis and come down with mere David Eddings' Disease instead, which is at least less of a problem. In a story with David Eddings' Disease they still always win, not just the big fight but most or all of the little ones, but at least someone people are supposed like can die, albeit only in highly dramatic circumstances. While this numbs and atrophies the suspense and drama centers of the tale, at least it doesn't completely kill them outright like Marysueitis does.

[PhantomFox]

Ah, my mistake. I didn't pay attention and thought the dragon had captured the girls, but apparently those were some other escapees.

[wizbenny]

LOL... WOW... go away a couple weeks updating stuff and the discussion exploded. Awesome.

I'm glad to see thoughtful discussion on both sides, although the thing I find amusing are the assumptions (most of which could not be more wrong) which have been made.

It's a common thing for people to do when they say, "Aha... he's using XYZ mythology" that they think I'm going to stick to it. Point in fact, not even close, my friends.

The sword, for instance... it's perhaps the single most important part of the entire plot.

And as far as suspense, I find it quite amusing to say it's not there when I've been building up 6 issues towards the eventual first clash between the Tytans and Ulympeans.

But you see you're missing something quite obvious... we have TWO groups of intensely powerful beings that are about to go to war. One group (the Tytans) don't know the other group (the Ulympeans) are present. Which is good, because as it stood at their crash... the Tytans numbered 330,000 while the Ulympeans numbered LESS than 2000.

Therefore our Ulympeans ONLY have two things going for them... surprise and the ability to plan.

That requires time and finesse and weapons to even those odds.

So it's a MUCH better idea (don't you think) to spend that time getting to know the characters and discover who they are while they prepare?

And as far as storytelling and pacing goes, have you picked up a comic in the past decade? We have more things actually happen in one issue than most mainstream comics accomplish in a year.

Quick recap, shall we?

Issue 1 - We meet both groups, Kronos stages an escape that not only shifts both groups across the universe, where they crash land on a primitive planet (earth). Not only that, but the energies that brought them there have granted them strange powers.

Issue 2 - We discover that both groups are quite alike in their experiences, however, the way they choose to handle their situations are opposite ends of the spectrum.

Issue 3 - We get to know some of the characters more intimately, and discover that they're not invincible... as well as an important revelation... they can procreate with humans.

Issue 4 - We get to know the female characters who are on a stealth mission to recover the Star Core before Kronos can. They succeed, but only after a tragic loss.

Issue 5 - We get to see Kronos' side of the story and discover the events that led the various races to become imprisoned on the Tytan in the first place.

Holiday Issue - We learned no less than 16 important revelations across 24 pages... but the most important two are that they're building a fleet for invading Egypt AND they're now arming themselves with weapons (a DISTINCT advantage they will NEED when they face the Tytans).

Six issues. Six self-contained stories. Six overall components that are part of a big picture that has been mapped out to encompass thousands of years worth of plots.

I can promise you this... if you THINK you see where the story's going... you're terribly wrong. For instance, we really don't hit the GREEK myths for at LEAST a year or two from now.

But I DO invite you to continue to rail against the story. Because I'll take a vocal reader for good or ill any day. Because you're a reader all the same and I value every one.

The ONLY comment I found sad was the one where someone felt it too distracting to await reading due to load times. Each page the COMIC loads first and navigation SECOND. The ads (which is how we get what little money we DO get to pay for a team of FOUR people, not including me) load last. Unless you're on dial-up, by the time you've read a page, the ads should have loaded long ago. But if not, you click next and you're on the next page.

There was a brief period where one errant advertiser was serving pop-under ads, but they have stopped that now, and there are NO popup ads whatsoever.

But we have no corporate sponsor. We don't charge for the work we do. We're the only full page comic that updates 7 days a week. And this is our full time job. So I hope it can be forgiven that RATHER than try to charge people to read, we simply put ads up to try to HELP cover SOME of the bills.

I'd love it if we could offer it free of ads, but sadly that's just not possible at present. So that is the only criticism that stings a bit.

[PhantomFox]

While a lot of things have been happening in the comic that could be considered important in issue 5 and the holiday one, they haven't been driving the main plot forward.

Seeing Chronos' side of the story was nice, but honestly, it didn't contain a lot that impacted things. Chronos is a bad guy? Already knew that. The Star Core was a powerful McGuffin? Kinda figured that. Chronos is a Well Intentioned Extremest? Well, didn't know, but suspected. It didn't really tell us anything that made me think "Oh wow, that changes things. Let me think how this news will impact things". So therefore, it felt like stalling. While the story was interesting in and of itself, it doesn't really contribute much to the larger story. A little characterization, but that's it. Unless you're planning a return of those aliens in the previous war, we'd rather move on in the story.

As for the holiday issue, again, it's nice in and of itself. However, much of what it did could have been incorporated in the main plotline. The main focus of this issue was something mostly irrelevant to the plot, a party. And while a lot of neat stuff was revealed, it was in context of planning for said party. The fact that they invented Christmas (Okay, not really, but the Santa suit gives off that vibe if nothing else) is something not really that important to the story at hand. And while all the power discoveries and super genetics (or whatever) are neat, their function is to support and facilitate the current goal of the characters. If you were to spend a whole issue on that alone, you'd have people yelling at you to "Get on with it!". So these are support elements, not main plot elements. And what are these elements supporting? A party. Woo. If the immediate goal had been something crucial to the main conflict, that would be something, but they feel... wasted on this holiday issue. Even the fact that they are planning an invasion and arming themselves seems glossed over in the midst of the prep for the celebration.

Yes, it's important to discover what the characters are like, but while they're preparing it not the best time for it. Preparations can be glossed over or recapped. Preparations are boring. Issues 1-4 I have no problems with. It's just the last two that are starting to bore me. And bored readers are your worst enemy.

[wizbenny]

While a lot of things have been happening in the comic that could be considered important in issue 5 and the holiday one, they haven't been driving the main plot forward.

While I appreciate the feedback... the assumption you're making is that you think you know what the main plot IS.

There were several KEY things that have happened in both of those issues that propelled the MAIN plot forward more so than issues 1-4

One other side note, that I found to be a rather funny turn of phrase was the "show don't tell" criticism concerning the characters' powers. I can only ASSUME that he means the bios (which are weekend bonus materials) and not the comic, since we've always SHOWN each character discovering their powers in action rather than told.

And not a single one of them has done so with mastery the first time (or even quickly at ALL.) Hermaz crashed many times. Hestya was running on pure adrenaline to save a child and passed out. Cassie burned off all her clothes numerous times in her early attempts. Suras nearly friend the villagers on accident and then scared a poor girl later. Haydez was stricken with grief and caused a minor earthquake. Airez nearly shot TWO of his crewmen. Hurk knocked himself on his butt the first time he used his hammer. In fact, Hestya was one of the FIRST to discover her powers, and had been "practicing" by Issue 4 nearly 3 years before she had "mastered" shooting flames with precision.

I fail to see ANY who were instant masters of their powers.

The plot has been driving toward the coming FIRST confrontation where they meet each other in battle. It will be all out war. Lord of the Rings did NOT start on the battlefields of Gondor or Helm's Deep for that matter. It built towards those battles, and did so rather slowly. It did so because it's an epic tale and that's how they're told.

This first battle coming up will influence MUCH of what happens afterward. It would strain credibility had I rushed into it with ill-prepared Ulympeans and forewarned Tytans that it would end in ANY way other than utter disaster. As it is, it's a monumental task for them. In total, it will have been nearly 5 years since they landed by the time these forces clash.

Right now much of the criticism is like the parable of the blind men and the elephant:

A group of blind men heard that a strange animal, called an elephant, had been brought to the town, but none of them were aware of its shape and form. Out of curiosity, they said: "We must inspect and know it by touch, of which we are capable". So, they sought it out, and when they found it they groped about it. In the case of the first person, whose hand landed on the trunk, said "This being is like a drain pipe". For another one whose hand reached its ear, it seemed like a kind of fan. As for another person, whose hand was upon its leg, said, "I perceive the shape of the elephant to be like a pillar". And in the case of the one who placed his hand upon its back said, "Indeed, this elephant is like a throne". Now, each of these presented a true aspect when he related what he had gained from experiencing the elephant. None of them had strayed from the true description of the elephant. Yet they fell short of fathoming the true appearance of the elephant.

[wizbenny]

In the light of morning, reading my comments I realized that they could be read as me being annoyed and/or defensive rather than how they were intended. Internet "forum" conversations have a tendency to be read incorrectly often, so I wanted to clarify...

I am amused, not angry or insulted or irritated in ANY way.

See... imagine you've got a huge Christmas Gift for someone you care about. And all year long you drop a new hint every day... but while the hints are accurate, they're purposely misleading (and even frustrating). You KNOW by the end of the process they will be VERY glad for the gift and all of the hints (in hindsight) will make sense.

Would you be angry with the person you're purposely misleading simply because they're frustrated? No. You'd be amused.

The ONLY thing to make sure of along the way, is that the person you're giving the gift to knows that you love them, and the end result WILL be worth it.

That's as close of an analogy as I can make. At close inspection (like all analogies) it falls apart, but it's a similar feeling. Yes, I can see and understand the frustration. But the reason the criticisms don't bother me, is because the premise they're based on are fundamentally incorrect.

To put it bluntly... to knock down cliches, first you have to set them up. And that's the last hint I can give on that.

Thanks for reading, and know you guys ARE cared about. :smallsmile:

[PhantomFox]

By the sounds of it, the main disconnect we seem to be having might be TOO much foreshadowing. As things stand right now, the way issues 5 and holiday come across to the average reader is as a (slightly) unnecessary flashback and an indulgent holiday spoof. You may have all these hidden Checkov Guns hidden in these issues that will be of monumental importance, but we can't see them. You're going "Oh, I'm setting up all this awesome stuff!" but we're going "Why is he wasting all this time with these side stories?"

Let me put it another way. Say you're telling the story of the epic adventure of Alex. And about halfway through you stop the story to tell the short story of Bob. And then one about Carl, and Dennis, and so on. The storyteller may know that all these guys come together in a crucial and intricate fashion, but by the time you start telling Dennis' story, the audience have gotten bored and wandered off wondering what ever happened to Alex.

That is to say, you can only string your readers along for so long with setting up Checkov's Guns in secret before they lose patience. Which seems to be what's happening now.

So yes, I may not know where the main plot is, but I DO know that up to now, the main theme is Titans vs Olympians. Generalized, my reaction has been as follows.
"Okay, we're setting up for the big first battle, this is gonna be... flashback? Okay, nothing terribly new there, but at least we got a little more backstory. Now let's get back to the... The Creation of Christmas? Come on! What happened to the big fight?!"
Yes, power discovery was neat, but as I previously said, when put in context of a holiday special, its 'punch' is lessened. And the building the fleet to attack the Titans was almost glossed over in one page.

Personally, I would have appreciated something more focused on progressing the theme of Titans vs. Olympians between the flashback and the holiday sequence. Or even better, bookend the holiday segment with something TvO related to create a more fluid segue. Perhaps something along the lines of "Oh hey, we have a problem we need to fix before we attack. Hmm, I'll think about it. Y'know, I can't think because I'm sad. Perhaps a party/holiday will cheer me up. Oh hey, we learned some new stuff planning this party! What a fun party! Oh hey, this new stuff allows us to solve that problem we had! Onward to victory!" This might have helped the Holiday issue feeling so 'out of place' like it does to me.

[wizbenny]

I don't know that I buy that "the average reader" thinks that given the overwhelming response to the contrary I receive daily. But regardless, a month spent building crucial steps (wrapped in a Christmas bow no less) I personally don't feel is "too long" to "string along" a reader. LOL. We are daily, after all.

I don't mean this as a criticism of Warren Ellis' Freak Angels (after all, he and I started at Marvel together, and he co-wrote my first issue with me -- so of course I have a soft spot for the guy)... but if you happen to read his series, whole years have gone by with characters sitting around drinking tea wine and building fences to plant a garden, while chasing chickens. A month or more for maybe a baby step of a plot advancement. It's only been recently (around 500 pages in) that any real narrative has taken place. And then this week we were treated to six pages of a character flying around. LOL.

But it's still a great journey. And frankly, there's no hurry in an epic tale to rush to the end. Enjoy the journey.

To use my Lord of the Rings analogy... remember good ol' Tom Bombadill? It was a complete side story, but one Tolkien felt important to add. Fans cried bloody murder when he was omitted from the movie. Sure, they found ANOTHER way to introduce the weapons, but it was in a less epic manner and there was no WEIGHT to it.

But starting January 3rd, Volume 2 begins... titled "Egyptian War Saga."

Not much ambiguity there, is it? LOL.

And guaranteed Issue 6... there will be blood.

And 7... and 8... and...

Sorry if you're frustrated and would like to skip to the last page of the book. But everything that's been done has been done with a great deal of forethought and purpose. I'd just like to point to the fact that even the GUEST pages aren't throwaway stories... nor was our "Holiday Special" a throwaway piece. The "origin of Santa" was 1.5 pages out of 25 and little more than a vehicle gag to giving Suras his sword and the others their weapons.

Oh, one more clarification... the sword isn't a "power up." It doesn't make Suras' powers more powerful. They don't augment them in any way. None of the weapons do, really. That'd be a bit of a video game type of thing to do... LOL. Suras has the ability to control wind and lightning. That's it. Pretty powerful against mortals, but when you're facing guys who are equally as powerful as you (or more), and who heal from anything short of losing their head... it falls up short.

None of our guys are "infinity" so "infinity + 50" does not apply.

[PhantomFox]

I mainly said "average reader" as I'm a reader and I guess I'm more or less average. And yes, I understand the importance of a "breather chapter", as you might refer to the Bombadil example from LOTR. It just feels like we've had two back to back. By themselves, neither issue is bad. It's just together that they become a bit tiresome. Perhaps I'm a tad biased, as I find the Christmas tie-in a bit gratuitous as well, but I'll not drag that out any further than I already have.

Just... try and see things from my side and I'll try to see things from yours. I'll understand that you've got everything planned outand trust you know what you're doing, and you understand that we can't always see all the important groundwork you're laying.

Short version: It feels slow currently. But by the sounds of it, you're picking the pace back up. Perhaps if you had spent another month or two explaining all the new weapons like Hades wanted, there might have been a revolt. ;) But you're not, so that's good.

Oh, and by the way, don't rely on the numbers argument for judging quality. This is the internet. Any piece of work will have people who think it's the best thing ever, and those who think it's the worst thing ever. Fanboys and haters are easy to pick up. But just because the majority agrees with you, does not make you automatically right. Examine each piece of criticism for truth before discarding it. I'm trying to be a constructive critic, and not just a hater or a yes-man. People have been having issues apparently, so pay attention to why, and see if the reasons are valid before getting defensive.

Hope I am of service.

[wizbenny]

Oh heavens no... there's a REASON I didn't have Haydez explain the sword right there! I want that surprise to be revealed IN ACTION not by Haydez explaining it in a boring manner.

Same goes for everyone's weapons. It's much more cool to see what they have going on in WAR than it is to explain the intricacies in a page. That'd be a waste of a page in my opinion, and I try not to waste pages.

Plus (minor minor spoiler) when I want to give you tech specs on the weapons... you'll see those on a Saturday bio page somewhere down the road. LOL. That's where stuff like that belongs.

Here's the thing about the bio pages as well. You'll note that UNTIL a character reveals IN THE COMIC what their powers are through ACTION, you won't see them getting a BIO PAGE.

But ultimately, I wasn't arguing that I was "right" due to numbers... I was simply disputing the "average reader" which you'll admit was a bit of hyperbole. I'm "right" only because I know what's coming.

That does NOT invalidate your feelings or the feelings of anyone else. I am a huge subscriber to the JOHARI WINDOW method of communication, and would never say that someone's opinion is "wrong." It's correct impression "right now." But there are things I know that you don't... so all I am saying is... it will make sense soon.

It's important when telling a large story to take the time to put all of the pieces down. With one as big as we have, that takes a BIT of work. Otherwise it'd be incredibly stilted if suddenly everyone had these weapons and you didn't see them getting them. Or if suddenly you saw people on top of the mountain wondering, "Hey, when did they build that?"

I subscribe to the "late in, early out" method of storytelling... but there's only SO far late into a scene or story you can show up without confusing your readers to heck.

Suffice to say, we now know all the MAIN characters who matter and have a sense of their personalities. We also now have a sense of all of the other stuff too. Time to wage war!

[Imgran]

It's all about dramatic tension. If you aren't going to do what it takes to maintain dramatic tension, you're going to lose people. And that is just plain hard to judge when you're writing something yourself, especially with limited editing time. Generally, the more alert readers are far more sensitive to the tension in the story than even the writer, who by nature of his function knows what's going to happen already.

So when someone says there's a problem, and provides reasoning as to why, take a second to decide if maybe, just maybe, there actually is cause for concern, before setting out with the idea that the reader is wrong and you're right, alright?

Expo, character and setup work is like salt. Done right it makes things delicious. Too little and you go through the experience feeling like you're missing something. Too much? Bleah. I just can't see why most of this stuff couldn't have waited and been worked into the main plot, or intro'd in a way that took a lot fewer pages. Most of the last 2 arcs could be summed up by Hephaestus giving Zeus a sword off panel, I doubt we even really needed to know the star core was in there until it actually got used on somethign Titan-related.

And that brings up another issue -- you're spending a lot of bullets on these 2 expo arcs that are going to prevent you from dropping twists on the readers later. You're taking too much time establishing stuff now that frankly it would be interesting to find out later when we have more context to grasp why it's significant. That's why a lot of good writers only break out the awesome powers and weapons and stuff 2-3 books into the series, because otherwise the significance of what the reader is being told is just... not there for them to understand.

Even Tolkein did it that way -- the first time the party encountered a Nazgul, they were armed with sticks and knives except one character who had spent the last several pages specifically telling the reader through expo that these guys were pretty freaking hard core, and the side-along encounters where the hobbits had managed not to go head to head with them helped to drive the point home. Furthermore they manage to seriously wound the main character and drive the party before them in a mad dash for refuge. Then, when they do link up with Gandalf and he proves himself able to send multiple Nazgul packing and still able to ride and fight afterward, you grasp quite easily that that took someone who is pretty seriously powerful to accomplish. If they'd linked up with Gandalf right at first, and he'd sent the Nazgul packing on Weathertop, it would never have been clear why anyone was ever afraid of the Nazgul, and as a result, Gandalf's own ability to send them packing doesn't resonate later. No risk would be established because the heroes, and us by extension since when you're reading the story you're putting yourselves out there with the heroes, were never vulnerable to them.

So where is Weathertop here? Where is the thing that established that Kronos means business and is pretty seriously badass? Incinerating one meaningless human we had no particular reason to care about? The death of one Ulympean who we knew for maybe 20 pages and whose name pretty much spelled out in stars, "this character will get in serious trouble and/or die so don't get attached?" Where?

The fact is that even with Andora, the sense that these people could get hurt, or might not have the power to face what they're up against, is 100% absent, and stealing the star core so very early in the plot and handing it to Team Good Guys doesn't help. Generally the bad guys need to be substantially more powerful than the good guys to be useful villains, and they just don't match up to the Olympians one for one based on the encounters we've seen so far, in fact Hurk and Team Female both handled the Tiytans fairly handily and each took down what should have been an epic boss fight with only one serious casualty between them. If either side needed a secret weapon to keep the story interesting, it's the one that lost the star core, not the one who put it into the hands of a guy who was already literally a thunder god.

If I was directing this story, I'd shift focus immediately to the "earth"lings. Esablish the Gods as, well, Godly, and use them as minor characters seeing to their own interest while we watch the real, honest, humble, RELATABLE humans caught in the middle, trying to deal with the fact that an interstellar war just fell out of the blue, sunny sky intent on using them as game pieces and their cherished ancestral lands for a chessboard while they struggle to figure out what's happening and how they should react. That's the bigger story here IMHO. That's where the drama is. That's where the significance is, and that is where there is the most story to be told.

[wizbenny]

I love ya Imgran...

Had you been (to use your analogy) reading Lord of the Rings in daily installments, you'd have said, "Why the hell are they taking the long road around?"

You seriously think that less than 2000 Ulympeans who are TRAINED military WITH a psychic who can see timelines is going to rush in to face off against 330,000 Tytans?

Yes, let's LOOK at the previous battles so far...

1) H'mbawa and his crew in EACH instance Hurk had superior numbers and surprise to win. H'mbawa was mopping the floor with most of them until Hurk (who happened to be stronger) found a weakness... and H'mbawa still got away. Then when they finally won it was ONLY because of teamwork, superior numbers, the betrayal of Enki AND weapons!!! And it was a HUMAN who killed H'mbawa.

2) Doctor Chu was mopping the floor with SIX Ulympean women until a TYTAN the Syrene joined the fight. AND he managed to kill one of the Ulympeans.

3) We showed that Kronos is a MASTER strategist. We saw in Issue 5 that had it not been for treachery, he would likely have won the war, that was drawn out for YEARS and resulted in billions of lives lost! If Kronos knew that Suras followed him through the wormhole and was on earth... the Ulympeans would all be dead. Point. Blank. Period. Dead.

You have ZERO clue what the importance of the sword is yet, but you declare it not important based upon no knowledge. LOL. In nearly every issue it's spelled out in neon letters that they're outnumbered and Kronos' crew are just as powerful (if not more so) than the Ulympeans and they had them outnumbered over one thousand to one!

The Ulympeans have Ethaynia (the most brilliant strategist the Fleet ever produced) who has access to a psychic that can read causal temporal fluctuations and project the outcome... along with Suras, a very smart leader in his own right. They're a LOT smarter when it comes to tactics than what you suggest.

And our characters are NOT gods. That's important to understand. You don't seem to want to let that nugget go. They're hard to kill and they have unique abilities beyond those of humans. But they're little more than near-immortal super-heroes (for lack of a better analogy) with some serious kryptonite issues that even HUMANS have readily at hand. This is the story of their struggles and how it shaped human history.

I've been writing professionally for over two decades, and our readership is growing quite large. Our monthly views number in the millions, which I'm told by the biggest names in webcomics is quite rare and unique. I'm fairly certain that I know what I'm doing. I appreciate your concern and that you would do things differently. But while I do appreciate your feedback, it's taken with the understanding that I do see the whole map whereas you don't. I do hope you'll stick around to see how it works out though... At the end of the Egyptian Saga, I'm sure you'll see what I mean... and you'll have a whole NEW set of things that you think should be done next. LOL.

LOL... and the sheer fact that you're ANXIOUS for us to get to that battle? Well gee, that's all the evidence for the existence of the tension you declare doesn't exist.

Give it a few issues into the War before you start declaring what's what. The battles begin soon, and we begin issue 6 with the dramatic return of Typhon to kick things off.

[Imgran]

It's a common thing for people to do when they say, "Aha... he's using XYZ mythology" that they think I'm going to stick to it. Point in fact, not even close, my friends.

That would resonate more if you hadn't done exactly that up to this point. When I see the first significant deviation I'll give credit when it's due.


The sword, for instance... it's perhaps the single most important part of the entire plot.


It would have nice if you'd put us into a position to understand why before it came out of Santa's bag. Even in the Chronicles of Narnia, when something very similar happened, it was obvious by that point that 1) they were going to have to fight and 2) they were seriously underprepared for what they were faced up against and needed the sword, bow and medicine desperately just to make up part of the difference. Of those, #2 is not clear here. robbing the Mystery Sword of at least half of its value in the eyes of the readers, most of whom just go "oh. Huh. So. Sword. ...okay?" and move on.


And as far as suspense, I find it quite amusing to say it's not there when I've been building up 6 issues towards the eventual first clash between the Tytans and Ulympeans.

The fact that there is no suspense should give you a pretty good idea how well you've done at establishing the reality and significance of the conflict. There has been little to no direct contact between the two sides outside the covert op -- which was one of the better parts of the story so far by the way, but by nature doesn't escalate the conflict itself because the only people on the Tiytan side that knew about it died or defected.

We're left with a fleet of boats, a handful of threats and a vague promise that sometime in the future there's going to be some kind of fight. Hard to understand why the massed world comics reading community isn't holding its collective breath, isn't it?


But you see you're missing something quite obvious... we have TWO groups of intensely powerful beings that are about to go to war.

No, believe me, last time I checked, I could count to two, and I just confirmed that stupendous ability in myself with a series of rigorous tests. What would be really interesting news is if there were THREE. Otherwise, this is pretty well traveled ground at this point.


One group (the Tytans) don't know the other group (the Ulympeans) are present. Which is good, because as it stood at their crash... the Tytans numbered 330,000 while the Ulympeans numbered LESS than 2000.

To paraphrase a man who knew what he was talking about, any number greater than about 12 or so is a statistic. You can't draw 2,000 of something on one page, much less 330,000, so if you were going for impressive numbers you aimed too high. If you wanted the Olympians to be outnumbered in a way that resonated, it should have been something like 330 against 12. That's numbers the human mind can visualize.


Therefore our Ulympeans ONLY have two things going for them... surprise and the ability to plan.
That hasn't been made sufficient clear in the narrative. The fact is that the only time Olympians have encountered Titans at this point it's been virtually even up in numbers, maybe a slight advantage to the Titans. The one scene in which there was vastly more Titans than Olympians, the lion's share of the Titans defected. If you want to impress us with the numbers disadvantage you're going to have to break down and show the good guys fighting at a severe numerical disadvantage a few times and keep those numbers motivated to actually keep trying to kill them.

It's really, really tough to pull off making being severely outnumbered really resonate with fans because "superior numbers" is just one of those things that always happens in stories. It's presumed before you even get into the "real" disadvantages the heroes are laboring under, like being untrained in combat or weaker one for one than their opponents or not having any real idea what they're up against. It needs to be "outnubered and..." to really have any effect today.

.


So it's a MUCH better idea (don't you think) to spend that time getting to know the characters and discover who they are while they prepare?

No. What's a much better idea is to give me something to get a hold on the story with, see the characters in real action against the enemy, establish the reality of both the enemy and the threat, and THEN watch them prepare. Furthermore the "preparation" so far has been short on actual preparation, very little discussion of exactly how they plan on fighting the Titans has taken place. Furthermore, going in half-cocked and screwing it up would create some useful angst and make these guys human enough to care about, which is something that's increasingly necessary.


And as far as storytelling and pacing goes, have you picked up a comic in the past decade? We have more things actually happen in one issue than most mainstream comics accomplish in a year.


More things happening? As defined by being a thing, and that thing happening? Sure. I'd believe it. As definied by being a thing, and that thing being something the reader sees happening, has an idea what's happening, and has a reason to care that it happens? Mmmmmwwweelllll...

[wizbenny]

Hard to understand why the massed world comics reading community isn't holding its collective breath, isn't it?

LOL. Imgran... I hate to break this to you, but you are not the "massed world of comics reading community." I just asked them. They didn't elect you to that post, my friend.

In fact, the numbers, the reader reaction... they speak louder volumes that your assumption here is actually wrong.

Two people in one forum do not "the community" make.

You're frustrated and anxious to see more. Sorry... but that's how these things are built. But I'm glad you're engaged enough to be so vocal. I truly appreciate it. If I felt what you said were correct, knowing what I know, then I'd make corrections. It's not.

More is coming and will continue to come for years to come. This isn't a mini-series, my friend. It's an ongoing epic that has over 5,000 years of history mapped out already...

Enjoy the ride... the journey will be worth the wait.

[Imgran]

I'll give you this much. I've never had so much fun snarking a webcomic.

Ease back on the defensiveness just a touch. I know it's hard when something you worked hard on is being criticized, but if I wasn't intrigued enough in the premise to be interested in the story, as you yourself said I'd have wandered off long ago. Take that as a sign that I'll still be following the work, and if you're smart you'll listen to guys like me and use our input to refine what you're doing.

Sometimes a devoted critic with the best interest of the story at heart can be a necessary outside perspective that keeps a good story off the rocks. The best writers know how to take fan opinion for what it's worth, isolate the bits that make sense, and use the feedback they're getting to improve their skills. I promise not to be any harsher than I feel is necessary, but if I feel you're continuing to waste the potential of the story,you'll hear about it when you check this thread. Not like I expect slavish deference to critics like me, be a fool if I did, but just take some of this stuff under advisement and don't be afraid to listen to a good idea if you see one, ok?

[wizbenny]

I'll give you this much. I've never had so much fun snarking a webcomic.

Ease back on the defensiveness just a touch. I know it's hard when something you worked hard on is being criticized, but if I wasn't intrigued enough in the premise to be interested in the story, as you yourself said I'd have wandered off long ago. Take that as a sign that I'll still be following the work, and if you're smart you'll listen to guys like me and use our input to refine what you're doing. I'd be a fool if I expected slavish deference to critics like me, but just take some of this stuff under advisement and don't be afraid to improve your skills or listen to a good idea if you see one, ok?

Oh believe me, I do and have. It just happens that your assumptions have been way off mark. BUT... I DO UNDERSTAND WHY they are way off the mark. Because I led you there.

Sorry, I led you there ON PURPOSE.

And I'm really NOT defensive, as I said. I'm amused. It's hard to convey that I'm smiling and HAPPY with this sort of feedback.

If you ever notice, I REALLY don't respond much (on the site or in this forum, since this is one of the ONLY ones I post in) to positive stuff other than to say "thanks." I don't take praise well. I relish CRITICISM.

Why? Because the strongest steel is that forged in fire and the sharpest blades are made through conflict. I APPRECIATE the criticism. I believe I've said that in every post.

If it sounds like I'm being snarky, I'm likely KIDDING or just laughing. I REALLY hate that tone gets so often misrepresented on these darn things. When I say "I love ya" I don't mean that in a condescending way... I mean, "I LOVE YA..."

[wizbenny]

On a COMPLETELY different note...

Sorry that this week is going to be a "guest comic" week, but many of these pages are ones that I've written at least...

My artists are all in China and to prepare for Chinese New Year (which they've requested to have off) they're working ahead this week to allow them to do precisely that.

Traffic overall stinks this week, anyway due to the holidays, which is why MANY Webcomics simply take the week off.

I figured it better to do something and maintain our track record of daily updates, instead so we don't suddenly miss the last week of issue 6 or something.

As a side benefit, that means we'll get to have issue 6 BEGIN on January 3rd, which just somehow feels right to me. A new year and the true beginning of "Volume 2." I like that, personally.

BUT we do have some really cool guest artists, like today's page by Al Rio!

[Imgran]

Fair enough. If I had to distill my criticism to a three point attack for improving the story as I see it, I'd highlight the following

1: Tighten the focus. This comic has worked best in 2 arcs, the Ninsun arc and the covert op arc. Those arcs worked because the sequence was focused and the chain of events led to something easy for readers to figure out what was going on, while at the same time establishing a creditable challenge and creating enough twists to keep it interesting, while introducing relatable, interesting characters such as Ekni, Ninsun and Permythe.

2: Break the Olympian sense of invincibility and godhood as quickly as you can. You NEED to pull away from the actual Greek mythology in a tangible way, because it's reinforcing the concept that the good guys win in the end, and that they are in fact gods, which is feeding a lot of my discontentment. That really makes it hard to hold suspense or create a credible threat. You don't want to put yourself in a situation where the only question left is HOW they overcome horrendous odds because everyone knows they actually will. Losing some serious early engagements and even some sympathetic human allies would go a LOOOOONG way here. Sure you already had some plans there. Don't go all dark and unrelenting string of defeats or anything. I hate it when nothing goes right for the heroes as much as I do when everything does, but you have to establish tangible on-screen vunlerability in a way Pandora's death really kinda didn't since it was, you know, Pandora.

3: Choose leads and supporting cast from among the Olympians and stick with that choice. I'm sure you'll get around to this eventually, but you aren't going to be able to handle the interactions of 12 characters if each one hogs the limelight. Arcs in which one or the other has a chance to shine are one thing, but it's time to see whose eyes we're going to be seeing the Tiytan threat out of the most frequently. You might be able to get away with a "Star Trek Away Team" format like the Hurk arc for awhile, but eventually someone needs to be the front man, face of the team, and the guy who carries the action by default, especially in a webcomic. It doesn't have to be just one guy, it can be anywhere from 2 to half a dozen, but it shouldn't be 12, it's far too hard to keep focus and too hard for a reader to follow properly. That's why there's so many 4 or 5 man bands in stories, rather than 100,000 man armies. It's easy enough for both a writer and a reader to keep track of that many leads and still surround them with useful supporting cast.

Well, that's my $02, just take it for what it's worth.

BTW I would be delighted to read a spinoff story like the one I suggested above, from a much more human-centric focus. At least a few arcs from that perspective would be very enjoyable, and would promote the Earthlings from Nameless Mooks to something we'd be inclined to care about -- and dealing with them on a real, human basis would help establish likability for the Olympians who respect their people and antipathy for the Titans who don't. It was the Ninsun arc that pulled me into this story, for exactly that reason. Do it more. :)

[Gez]

It seems to me a large part of the criticism will disappear once the archive is larger.

That said, wizbenny, yes, you do appear terribly defensive and, also, patronizing, in your response to criticism.

[Domochevsky]

Oh believe me, I do and have. It just happens that your assumptions have been way off mark. BUT... I DO UNDERSTAND WHY they are way off the mark. Because I led you there.

Sorry, I led you there ON PURPOSE.
...

That's cute and all, but isn't intentionally shoddy still ...well, shoddy? People can only see what you show them. Going "but i did this and this behind the scenes!" means nothing. >_>


...
That said, wizbenny, yes, you do appear terribly defensive and, also, patronizing, in your response to criticism.

This. Especially the "patronizing" part. You might want to cut down on that.

[wizbenny]

It seems to me a large part of the criticism will disappear once the archive is larger. That said, wizbenny, yes, you do appear terribly defensive and, also, patronizing, in your response to criticism.

There's simply a no-win scenario in these situations.

If you try to explain things, people read it as, "You're being defensive."

If you try to explain tone, people read it as, "You're being patronizing."

The only alternative is a stock answer you've probably seen a million times that says, "Thanks for your comments, I urge you to keep reading."

Now... I could certainly do that, but I find that lack of interactivity to be frustrating and passive aggressive to a level that's FAR more patronizing to the readers.

Instead, I prefer simply explaining that a lot of the comments will be resolved, and pointing out some of the clues that are "set-up" and actually RESPONDING. But, as I've said ad nauseum, I actually DO prefer criticism, in many regards, so that's what tends to get MORE response out of me. I enjoy those interactions.

But these sort of things... the VOICE I use in a forum... that happens over time.

[wizbenny]

That's cute and all, but isn't intentionally shoddy still ...well, shoddy? People can only see what you show them. Going "but i did this and this behind the scenes!" means nothing. >_>

I don't see where anyone's said that it was "intentionally shoddy" nor where I've said anything was behind the scenes. Neither statement has been said, nor are either statements true.

I've set up cliches to knock them down. He's only seen the setup and EXPECTS the cliches to be fulfilled.

[Imgran]

With the number of cliches you've set up, if you manage to knock them all down then I'll hail you as the international bowling king.

[wizbenny]

Well I am fat these days, so... bowling's one of the few sports left I can participate in.

[Agi Hammerthief]

@Imgran

I've read one of our longer posts last page (with the JRRT analogy) and have to wonder a bit.

how can you applaud to this comment by me:



the overall impression that the story was catalogue ordered at TV-Tropes,And there's another one. Your posts are short, but they're very pithy, and you're saying what I'm trying to say with ridiculously fewer words. Keep it up.

and then go about on a lecture on how the tension, interest of the readers etc. should be kept up if done by the book?

I don't think the story could take even MORE by the book at this point up to the point where I stopped reading.

[wizbenny]

Sorry Agi. Your post was too boring and I stopped reading after the first two words. But I'm sure what you said was rubbish based on those words, so I'll just stick with that impression and state it as fact. :smallsmile:

[PhantomFox]

This conversation seems like it is about to turn south. Be care that none of you devolve into hateful flaming, lest the mods get involved.

Out of curiosity, are there any points that we may have raised that you find valid, or are all of them invalid or part of the setup for some future payoff?

[wizbenny]

It was a joke. I even used the smiley face icon.

In the past, actually someone made a comment about Kronos I found valid, but that was some months ago.

Most of the comments aren't INVALID given the information present to you at the moment, to be honest. Roles reversed, I can absolutely see where they come from.

1) The thought of, "Can we get back to the action already?" would come from... There are likely just as many people who will say, "Can we get some more character development and LESS action?" when we get into those heavy action chapters. (For instance, they'll probably HATE the upcoming SILENT issue). Win some, ya lose some.

2) Also a concern about too large of a cast... Absolutely always been a concern. There's certainly a CORE cast, and I think it doesn't take the wisdom of Ethaynia to figure out which members those are. But it pays from time to time to check in with the supporting characters (such as we did with the Holiday Issue...)

3) I think we've established that they're NOT invincible, both through Andora and H'mbawa. Despite the assertion to the contrary, EVERYONE was shocked by Andora's death. I got hate mail galore and the electronic equivalent of flaming bags of dog poo left on my e-doorstep. In HINDSIGHT, sure someone can say, "Aha... she's Pandora... of COURSE she would die." But at the time, none saw that coming. However, that's a theme that will ALWAYS be present. Nobody is safe. And I have a LOT of really nasty surprises coming up. Mwuhahaha (that's my evil laugh).

4) Focus - Everyone has different tastes. And I really don't want each issue to be the same flavor. If you look at them, the first five issues are ALL part of one ARC. But separately they're each an individual story with a different feel to it. Issue 1 is old school space opera and setup. Issue 2 is a contrasting issue that shows both groups side by side (special note... take a look at Issue 2 and you'll note that each page is LITERALLY laid out so that the ODD and EVEN number pages if you're holding it in printed form match up... to MIRROR one another). Issue 3, we scaled down and focused on just 3 characters and really on just ONE character in particular. Issue 4 we ballooned out SLIGHTLY and focused on the female characters. Issue 5 we ballooned out again and focused on Kronos and his tale of how they all got into this situation. Holiday issue we zoomed back in and told a tale involving the supporting cast, emphasizing a lot of themes and revelations that will be very important. In short, each issue is different, but contributes to the big picture.

But again, as someone rightfully said (and I'm sorry I'm too lazy at this point to scroll down) a lot of these complaints are going to be moot points as soon as we get further into the story. That's why I said they don't bother me.

Truthfully the ONLY comment that did bother me in the slightest was the complaints about advertising being a deterrent.

But if the question is, "Do I dismiss criticism?" No. EACH comment has been read, and I evaluate, "Is there something I could have done better?"

Truth be told, YES, I was not entirely happy with how I handled the first issue. I see several pages that were repetitive and I could have tightened that story up a lot. I adapted it from the movie script rather than writing it from scratch and I think that it suffered because I didn't change it for the medium.

The crux of the story, however, would have always been the same. What happened would have been the same. But I would have liked to spend a little time with the characters earlier rather than JUST the situation at that point.

But the story as it stands NOW and the current issue? Absolutely I feel that the last two issues were necessary. Just as I think the next 6 issues are necessary... and the six after that.

Do I modify things based on the comments of others? Certainly there have been MANY minor things that have changed due to the response of others. I originally only had 5 main characters, I had planned to focus on. However, Hestya (always intended to be a minor character) wormed her way into my heart and easily she's one of the most popular characters as well. So her role is expanded.

Bottom line, I'm not writing this thing in a vacuum. Nor do I think I'm perfect or that my ideas are sacrosanct. I just have the bigger picture and realize things like... oh... what will happen next week. ;-)

[factotum]

There has been little to no direct contact between the two sides outside the covert op -- which was one of the better parts of the story so far by the way, but by nature doesn't escalate the conflict itself because the only people on the Tiytan side that knew about it died or defected.


That actually puzzled me a bit. I doubt Kronos would know or care that Permythe disappeared, but Dr. Chu ought to be a bit more important! Does he know Chu is dead, or does he think he's off gallivanting with the fairies somewhere? Hope that gets explained at some point!

[Agi Hammerthief]

Sorry Agi. Your post was too boring and I stopped reading after the first two words. But I'm sure what you said was rubbish based on those words, so I'll just stick with that impression and state it as fact.
if that is a snide at may Lack of Attetion Span for posts that contain Walls Of Text: tuché

if is at at my quitting your comic after about 2 months worth of strips: big foul

I was very careful in my wording to write my impressions as statement of opinion. (yes, that is possible without Walls of Text)
Plus I gave another reason apart from the story telling style.

edit:
It was a joke. I even used the smiley face icon.
it was so very unfunny, the smiley didn't help

[wizbenny]

That actually puzzled me a bit. I doubt Kronos would know or care that Permythe disappeared, but Dr. Chu ought to be a bit more important! Does he know Chu is dead, or does he think he's off gallivanting with the fairies somewhere? Hope that gets explained at some point!

You'll find out in the next 5-6 pages. :smallsmile:

[wizbenny]

if that is a snide at may Lack of Attetion Span for posts that contain Walls Of Text: tuché

if is at at my quitting your comic after about 2 months worth of strips: big foul

I was very careful in my wording to write my impressions as statement of opinion. (yes, that is possible without Walls of Text)
Plus I gave another reason apart from the story telling style.

Of course it was a jab at the posts. LOL. You didn't say you gave up reading the comic after two issues (until now), just Imgran's posts. LOL.

Your "Too long, didn't read" type of response made ME laugh, so figured turnabout was fair play. Heh.

As far as you giving up on reading Wayward Sons after two issues... I have no problem with that. Curiosity may change your mind some day, or it may not. Not every comic is to EVERY readers' tastes. For instance, I can see that Penny Arcade has a HUGE following and is very well crafted, but it's not my style of humor and not a comic that I could ever get into. I try it every once and awhile, but it's just not my thing.

It doesn't hurt my feelings in the slightest. You tried it, it wasn't for you... I thank you for trying it and that's that.

[Agi Hammerthief]

You tried it, it wasn't for you... I thank you for trying it and that's that.
let me elaborate on that a bit:

I'd be lying if I said that there is anything you can do to this comic to make want to follow it.
I do like the art, it's just that you are telling a type of story I'm not fond of,
in a setting I'm not fond of.

The points of criticism I raised are just the icing on the "I think, I'm not your target groop" cake.

soo,
once this project is finished, don't hesitate to post the follow-up :smallsmile:

[factotum]

Today's guest strip is...well...random is the kindest comment I can make on it... :smallsmile:

[wizbenny]

I think it's funny and cute. I admit it came out of left field for me too, but that's what I enjoyed about it...

The Syrene being depicted as a masochistic sex slave girl rather than a victim was over the top and had I been drinking I'd have had a very messy screen indeed when I saw it.

Still, it's a lot of fun in my opinion...

I did NOT write that one, tho I admit I wish I could claim credit...

Tomorrow's is a strange one too... with art and concept by Mary Cagle, the artist/writer of Kiwi Blitz.

We also have one coming up from my good friends Jinky Coranado (sp?) of Banzai Girl fame that I wrote and David Reddick of Legend of Bill.

And more.

[wizbenny]

let me elaborate on that a bit:
I'd be lying if I said that there is anything you can do to this comic to make want to follow it. I do like the art, it's just that you are telling a type of story I'm not fond of, in a setting I'm not fond of.

The points of criticism I raised are just the icing on the "I think, I'm not your target groop" cake.

soo, once this project is finished, don't hesitate to post the follow-up :smallsmile:

Absolutely. There is ANOTHER comic that I edit (linked from the Wayward Sons main page or by going to http://shockwave.keenspot.com) by the same art team (me included) called Shockwave, Darkside. I have no story control on it, other than to try to crack the whip on the writer. It's set in the world of the shot-in-3D independent movie (no clue on release date) by the same name and written by the writer/director. It's a sci-fi movie/comic set in the future depicting humanity's last "great" war -- on the moon.

I also hope to launch another horror/thriller adventure comic in a modern day setting, soon (working with the artist on that now)...

AND then there will be a spin-off comic someday on Wayward Sons set in the modern times as well.

So there will certainly be other projects to see if they're more to your taste.

[Domochevsky]

Something unrelated: is there a special reason you constantly doublepost? Is the edit button unappealing to you? :smallwink:

[wizbenny]

Hyperbole aside... the reason I SOMETIMES have double-posted has been to respond to:

1) Either separate people's comments that were different discussions...
2) Because someone responded AFTER I had begun a response so they showed up back-to-back.
OR
3) Because like in the one instance, it was separated by a day and I wanted to clarify something in the previous post.

I use the edit button typically for editing grammar/spelling errors ONLY not the message itself. It's too easy to be accused of editing what's SAID, and that's not a game I play. So while it's not an "allergy" it is something that I use for one purpose.

Sorry if that offends anyone, but that's how I choose to use the function.

[Cen]

Sorry if that offends anyone, but that's how I choose to use the function.

Oh, when we're at that: try please not saying 'lol' so often when commenting other pepole's statments. I leaves a feeling of you literally laughing at them and that's not very polite.

or maybe it's just me being overempathic...

[wizbenny]

or maybe it's just me being overempathic...

Ya think? :smalltongue:

[Cen]

Ya think? :smalltongue:

You should have added "lol" at the end to make it more perfect.


Anyways - regarding the comic:
The art is really good for a webcomic, maybe somewhere are some small problems with hands or expressions, but these are just details ale rarly occur.
Apart from the art - not so good. The whole comic suffers from overwhelming cliche. I know, I know, you built them to destroy them, it is all planned ahead, epic story blahblah etc etc BUT it's seven months of daily updates already and cliches are everywhere.
Next thing - lack of focus and characterization. Most of characters can only be described with their powers not personality. After seven months we know somethig specyfic about... Hades? Hurk? and maybe Kronos (I don't count character sheets, things that are in there should be shown not written). You should focus more on certain characters - 3, max 4 for one arc and then move to next ones.

Oh and last thing - get the hell rid of the future seeing lady. Or at least make her visions more vague and misleading. That thing that you did with the star core and sword is just horryfic. "We did that because we saw it in the vision of future" is just the worst thing you can make to the plot. NExt will be "magic is magic" or something like that, it's just too easy to handwave plot obstacles with it and you did it once, so you will be temptated to make it again.

Oh and what was said before - Olympians do seam overpowered. I know, I know, 300k against 2k, it was many times SAID but it wasn't SHOWN. And until it won't be shown in comic it won't matter to the story - so far it is "some evil guys with powers vs some good guys with powers AND weapons AND future prediction" and it's no good - noone will cheer for good guys when they have upper hand already.

About what you said - that they aren't gods but just superpowered and ALMOST immortal people - that is in fact greatest definition of "god" from greek/roman/egyptian/insertAnyPolitheisticReligionHere pantheon I've seen!

[wizbenny]

Actually the definition of god has to do with "personifications" and "domains" as well as "creation."

Zeus didn't just control the sky, he EMBODIED the sky. It was his domain and all that lived within it. He saw everything and was all powerful and invincible.

Poseidon didn't just control water, he WAS water, the oceans and EVERYTHING dangerous AND good that came from the sea.

Each thing that a god could do defined WHO they were and vice versa. That was the theological mindset of what defined a "god" to ancient romans, greeks, etc.

HEROES, however, are what you're defining. Someone touched with godlike abilities who fought, etc, yadda, yadda. It's an important distinction between the two.

[factotum]

Speaking of art, I actually like the artwork myself, but I do have a small complaint: pretty much every female is a D-cup or larger, and the men all have pectorals they could crack walnuts with. Any chance of a flat-chested woman or a bloke who doesn't look like he's been pumping iron since the age of 3? :smalltongue:

[Gez]

Suras personally handpicked the crew. For all his talks about merit and competence, he still had a whole galaxy to choose from, so he may very well have additional requirements. He may also have a bit of a chest fixation.

Now, on the Titans' side, however...

[PhantomFox]

Speaking of art, I actually like the artwork myself, but I do have a small complaint: pretty much every female is a D-cup or larger, and the men all have pectorals they could crack walnuts with. Any chance of a flat-chested woman or a bloke who doesn't look like he's been pumping iron since the age of 3? :smalltongue:

Chalk it up to The Most Common Superpower. Or perhaps Boobs Of Steel. More of an issue with print comic style in general. How many flat super heroines do you know?

[wizbenny]

LOL... well believe it or not, there are SEVERAL characters where I constantly give notes about their physique.

Now... everyone's supposed to be fairly muscular for the most part... they're in the military.

And as for breast size, actually there's a chart for that, which doesn't always get followed by the artist.

Temis - A cup
Cassie, Metre, Agalope (the Syrene woman) - B Cups
Ethaynia, Hara, Sefani, Andora, Maduza - C Cups
Frodaity - D Cup
Ninsun - DD Cup (Note, however, that she's ALSO 6 feet tall)
Hestya - G Cup

Hestya is the only "not ripped" female as well. She's short, and has curves and meat on her bones. (She's actually also based upon a friend of mine, and believe me when I say, giving her a G Cup was a breast reduction).

Again, sometimes this doesn't get drawn precisely, but those are the notes. If you look at the bio pics for each of these characters you'll see they're closer to the cup size described above.

In short, the majority of the women weren't supposed to be larger than a C.