[3.5] Anthropomorphic Bat Can't Be That Broken... Right?

[balistafreak]

Looking at the table in Savage Species, I frown. Something about the numbers seems off - o rly, +6 Wisdom? Why hello there Codzilla!

Armed with my trusty "text-trumps-table" mindset, I plough into the words of the Anthromorphic template. From the top:

A normal Bat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/bat.htm) is Diminutive. This advances to Small when the template is applied. Table is correct.

A normal Bat has a fly speed of 40 feet (good). This is halved and dropped to 20 feet (average). Base land speed of 5 feet is maintained. Table is correct.

We'll not pay attention to AC - that's not relevant to a race.

A normal Bat has no natural attacks. This has no table entry either, and by the template rules the Anthro bat gets no natural attacks either, so table is correct in that it says nothing. Whatever that's worth. Same with special attacks.

A normal Bat has the Special Qualities of Blindsense (20 feet) and low-light vision. The template simply states "an anthropomorphic animal has darkvision with a 60-foot range". Does this add onto the original special qualities or replace them?

BAB and saves are determined by class for a 1 HD anthromorphic animal, so skip over that.

Here's the big one. A normal Bat has a statline of 1/15/10/2/14/4. This gives them, by these rules, (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monstersAsRaces.htm#abilityScoresforMonsterPCs) modifiers of -10/+4/0/-8/+4/-6.

Then we advance the normal Bat by adding the template. Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution are all advanced by size. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#sizeIncreases) Going from Diminutive to Small gives +10 Str, -6 Dex, and +2 Con. Intelligence becomes 11, Wisdom gets +2, and Charisma +4. Combined with the original modifiers, an Anthromorphic Bat should have modifiers of 0/-2/+2/0/+6/-2. (The 0 for Int comes from the stat "becoming 11".)

The table, however, reads -4/0/0/0/+6/-2. Compare with 0/-2/+2/0/+6/-2. Overall, these stats are probably better than before - a less harsh dump to a less important stat, and then a Constitution pump.

... that was not what I was looking for. Guess the Anthro bat is even more broken when text-trumps-table. :smalltongue: Feel free to discuss your thoughts on this statline.

EDIT: Correction pointed out by PId6. Thanks, mate!

But I do have a valid question on the Special Qualities. Having Blindsense would be great, and while having darkvision is good, stacking low-light vision on it is even better.

Along these lines, I wonder if more of these Anthropomorphic animals are better than they seem?

[The Glyphstone]

Bat and Toad I think are the standouts, because of the 1 racial HD (that gets swapped for a class level) and +0LA. But yes, Anthro Bat is that broken.

[PId6]

Going from Diminutive to Small gives +10 Str, -6 Dex, and +2 Con.
No, that's going from Diminutive to Medium. It should be +6 Str, -4 Dex. The table is correct.

[Escheton]

From a strict powergamerstandpoint yes, broken, totally.
From a roleplayers view, ow the agony. You are a bat, A BAT. Your mind is odd, your social hangups are disastrous and without magic you can't interact with npc's without weirdness.

[PId6]

From a strict powergamerstandpoint yes, broken, totally.
From a roleplayers view, ow the agony. You are a bat, A BAT. Your mind is odd, your social hangups are disastrous and without magic you can't interact with npc's without weirdness.
Well, you're a really big bat (relatively), WITH LEGS!!!

And besides, a druid's going to be spending all of his time in Wildshape anyway. I doubt he'd care. :smalltongue:

[balistafreak]

No, that's going from Diminutive to Medium. It should be +6 Str, -4 Dex. The table is correct.

*boom* HEADSHOT

Thank you sir, may I have another? :smallredface:

Disregard that. But still...

Does the Anthropomorphic Bat get Blindnesssense and Low-Light Vision in addition to Darkvision, or does Darkvision overwrite those two?

EDIT: Getting Blindness would suck. A lot. :smallbiggrin:

[PId6]

Does the Anthropomorphic Bat get Blindnesssense and Low-Light Vision in addition to Darkvision, or does Darkvision overwrite those two?
It's kind of weird. The entry doesn't say what happens to the original special qualities, so I believe by RAW you keep them, but it's weird.

Edit: Actually, I think by RAW you don't keep them, but by RAI you do, based on the wording for special attacks. But meh, it's weird. Any sane DM should ban them anyhow.


EDIT: Getting Blindness would suck. A lot. :smallbiggrin:
Meh, still worth it for druid. :smallbiggrin:

[SurlySeraph]

The anthropormorphic creatures are very badly balanced, yeah. Baleen Whale is very smashy, and Squid or Octopus can do scary things with the right build (say, levels in Soul Eater).

[Eloi]

The anthropormorphic creatures are very badly balanced, yeah. Baleen Whale is very smashy, and Squid or Octopus can do scary things with the right build (say, levels in Soul Eater).

Not to mention the possible abuse of female NPCs granted by being a Squid or Octopus, you musn't forget that.

[Hadrian_Emrys]

Not to mention the possible abuse of female NPCs granted by being a Squid or Octopus, you musn't forget that.

Even as male, I shudder at the idea of this being attempted outside of a "Book of Erotic Fantasy" game.

[Eloi]

Even as male, I shudder at the idea of this being attempted outside of a "Book of Erotic Fantasy" game.

Well, actually Things with tentacles have beaks, beaks they use to tear soft flesh. As well, tentacles can penetrate any hole smaller than a tennis ball, such as eyes and nasal cavities. So it'd be more "Tentacle Murder" than "Tentacle Rape". Which is still shudder worthy, but also more shudder worthy:
You'd have to use grappling rules! *hides*

[AstralFire]

Squick, squick, squick, but good punchline.

[2xMachina]

Aural/nasal tentacle pr0n? (Don't know how to say eyes)

[Eloi]

Squick, squick, squick, but good punchline.

If it were in a source book, I'd title the section 'the Aristocrats.' http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheAristocrats


Aural/nasal tentacle pr0n? (Don't know how to say eyes)
If you find flesh being torn open threw something entering much too big (squids are not small!) in areas that are non-erotic (nasal cavities, say) you have some pretty disturbing fetishes.

[Os1ris09]

Must you people scar my innocent mind with such atrocities as a squid and octopus doing such insane things to people ........ *shudders in fear*

[Jair Barik]

When a player on these forums asks me wether they can play something like an Anthropomorphic bat I have developed a system. I say no, play something else. If they then ask if they can play say something equally idiotic like a Jamberlaine or an exiled modron (i think that was the stupid one) I say sure, in fact feel free to make your character gestalt, with epic levels and infinite flaws with as much homebrew as you please. They won't be getting into the game but it means I don't have to keep answering their dumb requests for races that give the highest possible Wisdom bonuses and don't have to find out they have inevitably prepared Venomfire and a Fleshraker animal companion.

[2xMachina]

If it were in a source book, I'd title the section 'the Aristocrats.' http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheAristocrats


If you find flesh being torn open threw something entering much too big (squids are not small!) in areas that are non-erotic (nasal cavities, say) you have some pretty disturbing fetishes.

Only stated for I remember the QC comic.

[Eloi]

@Os1: Oooh you haven't heard of the wonderful things bats can do too! If you can be an anthropomorphic bat, you can *censored* in the *censored* whilst *censor*ing upside down around the *censored* using the *censored* [expletive deleted] tho' thats a bit *censored*-esque. Alternatively, you can *censored* [expletive deleted] *censored*, but thats only if you are very depraved.

[mikej]

Yes, the Anthro Bat is broken from the optimizer/powergamer perspective. The majority of Druids are staying in Wildshape anyways. So the real mechanical drawbacks of the Bat are null. That +6 to Wisdom at the start of the game is very good and very hard to overlook. Add in the +5 from leveling, +5 Tome, Periapt of Wisdom +6, that's ( Assuming your start off with 18 ) 40 with no real problem. You factor in stuff like Owl's Insight ( SpC ) and it can get pretty ridiculous at the end. It's good, but certainly not on the high end of powerful stuff the Druid can use.

Although it's pretty funny. I consider myself a optimizer/powergamer, yet I don't even bother with that thing. I tend to prefer choosing Humans for my Druids. Since I'm not always in Wildshape and I like social interactions. Also picturing my Druid as a freaking Man-Bat seems weird to me :smallconfused:

[Os1ris09]

@Os1: Oooh you haven't heard of the wonderful things bats can do too! If you can be an anthropomorphic bat, you can *censored* in the *censored* whilst *censor*ing upside down around the *censored* using the *censored* [expletive deleted] tho' thats a bit *censored*-esque. Alternatively, you can *censored* [expletive deleted] *censored*, but thats only if you are very depraved.

*cowers in absolute terror* Please stop the torture anything but that. ANYTHING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Zom B]

Aural/nasal tentacle pr0n? (Don't know how to say eyes)

Optical.

Also, you can make some fun puns out of "aural."

[Chells]

Optical.

Also, you can make some fun puns out of "aural."


Actually it's ocular.:smallamused:

[jpreem]

Tentacle rape?. Sounds rather FATAL.

[Eloi]

Tentacle rape?. Sounds rather FATAL.

Well, actually no, you forgot the source book that told of Illithids that use their tentacles to have sexual contact with humans in order to feed and come off the sexual energy instead of drain their brains for intellectual energy. There was a table for it and everything, I have the book right here.

[Escheton]

@Os1: Oooh you haven't heard of the wonderful things bats can do too! If you can be an anthropomorphic bat, you can *censored* in the *censored* whilst *censor*ing upside down around the *censored* using the *censored* [expletive deleted] tho' thats a bit *censored*-esque. Alternatively, you can *censored* [expletive deleted] *censored*, but thats only if you are very depraved.

did you type that at your local Mooby Burger?

[Ormagoden]

Somehow... this is the most surprising thread derailment
EVER




Even though i saw it coming...

[Escheton]

Thank you, I am honored.

Back on topic: How do anthro's compare to their counterparts?
Such as anthro elephant vs loxo, anthro goat vs uhm...that evil goatfolk, etc.

[PlzBreakMyCmpAn]

Anthro Bat is that broken.... So human wiz20 vs anthro bat fighter20 means the broken anthro bat will win?

[Kris Strife]

If you find flesh being torn open threw something entering much too big (squids are not small!) in areas that are non-erotic (nasal cavities, say) you have some pretty disturbing fetishes.

Guro and snuff say hi. In fact, I think there are specific subtypes of each for what you mentioned.


@Os1: Oooh you haven't heard of the wonderful things bats can do too! If you can be an anthropomorphic bat, you can *censored* in the *censored* whilst *censor*ing upside down around the *censored* using the *censored* [expletive deleted] tho' thats a bit *censored*-esque. Alternatively, you can *censored* [expletive deleted] *censored*, but thats only if you are very depraved.

But only about once a year.

[Ravens_cry]

Somehow... this is the most surprising thread derailment
EVER




Even though i saw it coming...
Unless it creates a new Pantheon and starts a meta-religious flame war that lasts over 16 pages, I say it doesn't even come close. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=93068)
But then, I am biased.
Hail Good Cat!

[Eloi]

Guro and snuff say hi. In fact, I think there are specific subtypes of each for what you mentioned.

Faith in humanity levels: -100




But only about once a year.
Well some half-bats can do it biannually.