Optimize/tweak a core Cleric? Level 5, 3.5ed

[fracas]

I've been playing 4e since it came out but someone just asked me to join a 3.5 game. I'm a bit rusty and first session is about 12 hours from this post so I have to slap something together kinda fast. I realize Clerics aren't great for that but that's what the DM said they needed. Apparently the party isn't overly good at not becoming dead. :p

The party: Fighter, Bowranger, Sorceror, my Cleric, all lvl 5, core only.

Goals are:

1. Heavy melee and turning/rebuking. Undead are frequent. The fighter isn't all that good so I need to pick up slack. Watch his back and keep the others safely out of melee.

2. Buff-monkey and tank.

3. Fit the environment. Good/neutral alignment preferred unless there's a good reason to go evil. Setting is mostly jungle with occasional naval exploration.

4. Possibly Leadership at 6th? Not a natural since I tend to dump in Cha but I'm open to ideas.

Would especially like ideas on items (standard starting gold) and cleric domains. I'm thinking Travel might fit well but dunno beyond that. Powerful is good since I'm picking up slack for the fighter but more important is just being fun to play and having lots of options.

Here are my ability scores: 17, 16, 13, 13, 12, 10.

[Prodan]

Nightsticks

[Mongoose87]

Nightsticks

He said core only.

[Prodan]

Could at least ask about them.

Human

Str 16, Dex 10, Con 12, Int 12, Wis 17, Cha 13

Feats:
1: Power Attack or Extra Turning
1: Spell Focus: Conjuration
3: Augment Summoning

Items:
Metamagic Rod of Extend Spell, Lesser
+1 Morning Star

[Jack_Simth]

I've been playing 4e since it came out but someone just asked me to join a 3.5 game. I'm a bit rusty and first session is about 12 hours from this post so I have to slap something together kinda fast. I realize Clerics aren't great for that but that's what the DM said they needed. Apparently the party isn't overly good at not becoming dead. :p

The party: Fighter, Bowranger, Sorceror, my Cleric, all lvl 5, core only.

Goals are:

1. Heavy melee and turning/rebuking. Undead are frequent. The fighter isn't all that good so I need to pick up slack. Watch his back and keep the others safely out of melee.

2. Buff-monkey and tank.

3. Fit the environment. Good/neutral alignment preferred unless there's a good reason to go evil. Setting is mostly jungle with occasional naval exploration.

4. Possibly Leadership at 6th? Not a natural since I tend to dump in Cha but I'm open to ideas.

Would especially like ideas on items (standard starting gold) and cleric domains. I'm thinking Travel might fit well but dunno beyond that. Powerful is good since I'm picking up slack for the fighter but more important is just being fun to play and having lots of options.

Here are my ability scores: 17, 16, 13, 13, 12, 10.

Let's see... decent array. If you want to mix it up in melee, you'll likely want the 17 in Wis, the 16 in Str, and the ten in Int. A Dwarf makes a good choice, usually, and a half-orc wouldn't be completely out of place.

At this level, Core only, you'll have some trouble being a good melee monster - you'll usually need to spend a round buffing yourself before you can (Bull's Strength & Divine Favor being what you're after, here). The Strength domain would net you Enlarge Person, but again: Buffing rounds.

Luck is a good domain, as is Travel, as is Trickery. Strength and War are the obvious "melee cleric" domains. But you seem to know what you want.

[Critical]

Sun domain wouldn't be a bad choice here.

[fracas]

Sounds like a good start but I'd rather focus on melee/buffs/turning than summoning. Or were you suggesting summons as an alternative to leadership?

Is there any mechanic to spend turning attempts for other benefits in the Core books?

Why not use a 2handed weapon like a greatsword to maximize power attack and base damage benefits? Holy symbol or rod in the other hand? I doubt if I'd use a rod of extend spell much in combat...?

[Prodan]

Why not use a 2handed weapon like a greatsword to maximize power attack and base damage benefits?

Lack of proficiency.

[Jack_Simth]

Lack of proficiency.

War domain can take care of that, and there are some two-handed simple weapons, such as your basic Spear. Sure, it's only 1d8 20/x3, compared to the Greatsword's 2d6 19-20/x2, but really, that's just an average of 2.5 points of damage difference. Which, while noticeable at the level in question, isn't that bad.

[Amphetryon]

I've been playing 4e since it came out but someone just asked me to join a 3.5 game. I'm a bit rusty and first session is about 12 hours from this post so I have to slap something together kinda fast. I realize Clerics aren't great for that but that's what the DM said they needed. Apparently the party isn't overly good at not becoming dead. :p

The party: Fighter, Bowranger, Sorceror, my Cleric, all lvl 5, core only.

Goals are:

1. Heavy melee and turning/rebuking. Undead are frequent. The fighter isn't all that good so I need to pick up slack. Watch his back and keep the others safely out of melee.

2. Buff-monkey and tank.

3. Fit the environment. Good/neutral alignment preferred unless there's a good reason to go evil. Setting is mostly jungle with occasional naval exploration.

4. Possibly Leadership at 6th? Not a natural since I tend to dump in Cha but I'm open to ideas.

Would especially like ideas on items (standard starting gold) and cleric domains. I'm thinking Travel might fit well but dunno beyond that. Powerful is good since I'm picking up slack for the fighter but more important is just being fun to play and having lots of options.

Here are my ability scores: 17, 16, 13, 13, 12, 10.

I would go STR 13 DEX 10 CON 12 INT 13 WIS 17 CHA 16, for a Cleric with a heavy undead emphasis and secondary emphasis on tanking. Grab the War domain for the MWP and a two-handed weapon; I like a heavy flail if available through your campaign's deity options because of bludgeoning damage and tripping possibilities. Extra Turning is useful even without DMM, but might be better here obtained through a Domain.

[Prodan]

War domain can take care of that, and there are some two-handed simple weapons, such as your basic Spear. Sure, it's only 1d8 20/x3, compared to the Greatsword's 2d6 19-20/x2, but really, that's just an average of 2.5 points of damage difference. Which, while noticeable at the level in question, isn't that bad.

You can wield a Morning Star 2 handed, and it deals two types of damage.

[AxeD]

Well, if you want to fight primarily in melee and still destroy undead, Sun and War Domains are probably for you. That 1/day greater turning ability granted by the sun domain is pretty cool.

Looking at your party line up however, it might be more useful to have the Trickery and Travel domains. Lvl 5 sorcs don't get tonnes of spells, so having another caster able to cast spells like: fly, invisibility and disguise self might be useful to the party.

But yeah, you probably want your stats to be:
Str16, Dex 10, Con 12, Wis 17, Int 13, Cha 13

Feats:
1: Extra Turning
1: Power attack
3: Cleave


Why not use a 2handed weapon like a greatsword to maximize power attack and base damage benefits? Holy symbol or rod in the other hand? I doubt if I'd use a rod of extend spell much in combat...?

Lack of proficiency.

You could get the War domain (which gives you proficieny in your god's favoured weapon) [EDIT: Ninja'd twice] and choose a god with a 2 handed weapon. Also gives you weapon focus for that weapon.

Although I'm not sure how you can hold a holy symbol/ rod in one hand and a great sword in the other.

[RelentlessImp]

Although I'm not sure how you can hold a holy symbol/ rod in one hand and a great sword in the other.

Have the holy symbol worked into the chestpiece of your armor or emblazoned onto the crosspiece - or just tattooed into your palm (let go of the sword with one hand and raise up the hand, palm-out, whenever you need it).

[Rothen]

[QUOTE=RelentlessImp;8645145]or just tattooed into your palm [QUOTE]

That is awesome. I'll have to try that sometime.

[RelentlessImp]

or just tattooed into your palm

That is awesome. I'll have to try that sometime.

The only problem is if you ever want to use gauntlets or gloves. :P

[AxeD]

The only problem is if you ever want to use gauntlets or gloves. :P

Have it tattooed on your face!! Or better yet, on your weapon! Can you imagine how cool it would look (in your imagination) holding your weapon up in the air (surrounded by undead) and using turn undead with your weapon?

I suppose the easiest solution is to inscribe it on various parts of your armour in addition to tattooing it on your body.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

A holy symbol should be attached to the back of each of your gauntlets, which you are wearing because they come free with heavy armor. It's also good to remember that those grant you the same benefit as taking Improved Unarmed Strike.

I'd go Dwarf, no reason not to. Worship Ehlonna and get the Sun and Plant domains. Start out with two Phantom Fungus under your control via your Rebuke/Command Plants ability, they should serve as flanking partners and AoOers and just getting in the way of opponents. Note that since they're invisible nothing can AoO them so you can direct them to move around all you want. You'll have a superb domain spell at every spell level, with Entangle, Barkskin, and Wall of Thorns being some of the best. Don't bother taking any prestige classes, you'll be fine as a single-classed Cleric. I'd get either Improved Turning and Craft Wondrous Item or Power Attack and Cleave.

I'd make your stats Str 16, Dex 10, Con 13, Int 12, Wis 17, Cha 13 before racial adjustments. Put your 4th level point into Wis, your next two into Con and Cha depending on which you'd want more of, and everything else into Wis. Put Concentration 8 ranks, Craft: Armorsmithing 3 ranks, Kn: Nature 5 ranks, Heal 3 ranks, and Kn: Religion 5 ranks. Your future skill points should go toward Concentration and Kn: Religion, and once you're keeping both of those at max ranks put anything left into Heal. Get a Lesser Rod of Extend, a Circlet of Persuasion (it applies to turning checks!), masterwork armorsmithing tools, a masterwork morningstar or heavy mace, and masterwork full plate and heavy steel shield which you've crafted yourself for 1/3 the cost, taking 10 on the checks for guaranteed success. You may even have enough left over for a partially charged wand of cure light wounds. If you start with Craft Wondrous Item you can add +2 Wisdom to the Circlet since you'd have crafted it yourself at 1/2 the price. As per MIC it doesn't cost any more than normal to add +Wis to an existing head slot item.

[fracas]

Great info guys!

So far: I've got a bit of a MAD issue since I have three goals (melee-str, casting-wis, turning/leadership-cha) and only two high stats. It would be stupid to dump in casting (better to pick a different class) so I need to either cut Str (at which point I'm just a meat shield) or Cha (at which point Leadership and Turning may not be so useful?)

If I go the Str route: Some good 2handed weapon that does bludgeoning (heavy flail sounds good with trip options), dwarf or half orc. Find some good summons (Biff's Plant domain being first on my list so far) to take the place of Leadership. Probably not invest in Turning feats unless I can use Turn attempts to power something else.

If I go the Cha route: 1handed bludgeoning + heavy shield, human race. Sun/travel/trickery? Isn't there an Extra Domain feat somewhere? Boost Turning and get Leadership.

Biff - Just what I was looking for! A bit more interesting flavor than generic beater-cleric, neat summons, good optimizations with crafting... my only question is why dwarf? They get some nice abilities but -2 Cha doesn't seem like a good fit with Improved Turning. I could use the extra Human feat, and if I'm taking a hit to Cha, why not grab the more valuable Str bonus from Half-orc instead? Best defense being a good offense and all that.

Dwarf poison resistance really that good?

[RelentlessImp]

Dwarf poison resistance really that good?

I think people are suggesting Dwarf more for the stat bonuses (though the -2 CHA would cut into your turning) and the fact that they can move their full speed while wearing medium or heavy armor.

[AxeD]

If I go the Str route: Some good 2handed weapon that does bludgeoning (heavy flail sounds good with trip options), dwarf or half orc.

Half Orcs get a -2 to Cha and Int, so, say hello to your (assuming you choose your Int to be either 10 or 12) 1-2 skill points per level.:smalltongue: Dwarf is definately the best choice.

I've never personally thought that clerics need that high a Charisma modifier. 13 Cha should be fine and you can always increase that score when you hit 4th lvl, or with an item, or using Eagle’s Splendor.

[Amphetryon]

Great info guys!

So far: I've got a bit of a MAD issue since I have three goals (melee-str, casting-wis, turning/leadership-cha) and only two high stats. It would be stupid to dump in casting (better to pick a different class) so I need to either cut Str (at which point I'm just a meat shield) or Cha (at which point Leadership and Turning may not be so useful?)

If I go the Str route: Some good 2handed weapon that does bludgeoning (heavy flail sounds good with trip options), dwarf or half orc. Find some good summons (Biff's Plant domain being first on my list so far) to take the place of Leadership. Probably not invest in Turning feats unless I can use Turn attempts to power something else.

If I go the Cha route: 1handed bludgeoning + heavy shield, human race. Sun/travel/trickery? Isn't there an Extra Domain feat somewhere? Boost Turning and get Leadership.
Shields are not especially useful in 3.5. If you put a 13 - heck, even, a 10 - in STR and use Bull's Strength or one of your other divine buff options to STR, you'll benefit considerably from the 2-handed weapon route, while still keeping your CHA high enough to improve your Turning efficacy and make even better use of Leadership. It also would mean you can afford the CHA penalty of a Dwarf without sabotaging your own Turn Undead mechanic.

[Optimystik]

I actually advise against Sun Domain. Sure you can nuke a bunch of undead... but you can only do so 1/day, and the spells aren't that great.

When you say Core-only, do you literally mean "PHB+MM1+DMG" or is the SRD allowed too? If so, the Glory Domain (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/domains.htm#gloryDomain) is a much better choice.

If not, I would go with something like Good or Strength. (Strength is also 1/day, but gives you the excellent Bigby's line which can put a severe smackdown on incorporeal undead.)

[Lin Bayaseda]

I advise against spending cash on a magical weapon at this stage. It costs about 1/4 of your total cash. Just get a masterwork weapon instead, which costs about 7 times less, and is almost as good. Anything you can't hit due to DR, just hit with spells. (Spiritual Hammer, Searing Light, etc). Since you're only level 5, you're not likely face DR opponents at every encounter.

[Optimystik]

I advise against spending cash on a magical weapon at this stage. It costs about 1/4 of your total cash. Just get a masterwork weapon instead, which costs about 7 times less, and is almost as good. Anything you can't hit due to DR, just hit with spells. (Spiritual Hammer, Searing Light, etc). Since you're only level 5, you're not likely face DR opponents at every encounter.

Or better yet, toss on Magic Weapon and wail on them.

[fracas]

Stat bonus from Dwarf doesn't seem that good. Like I said, I'd imagine the Horc Str bonus is more useful than Con. Con would give me +1 hp/lvl and +1 Fort. That's about it. Str would give me +1 attacks, +2 damage with a 2handed weapon (16 str = mod 3, 2hand weapon does 1.5x str, 3x1.5=4.5 round down to 4, but 4x1.5=6). They're probably equally useful in terms of skill bonuses.

This seems confirmed by the fact that the Dwarf gets only -Cha while the Horc gets -2Cha and -2Int. Granted that Dwarf's other attributes are better as well. The skill point penalty hurts pretty bad in an already skill-starved class. For that reason I'm willing to ditch Horc. That leaves me thinking human feat + skills > Dwarf +CON and 20' move speed in armor. Plus we're in the jungle and I don't want weird stuff growing in my beard. :p

I do agree that shields are less useful than a 2hander.

Seems like a high leadership score isn't very useful until attracting followers at 10th level, by which point I'll have substantial item buffs.

Turning is nice but only comes into play vs undead, which are a substantial population but not a majority. High str comes in useful vs everything. Therefore I'm leaning strongly towards str 16/cha 13. I can always buff cha with Eagle's Splendor or items, and it makes more sense to cast buffs on the less used stat while keeping the more-used stat high by default.

Opti - I'll ask about SRD vs Core. I think I can probably swing SRD. I was already thinking Str looks good. The Sun domain has pretty useful low-level spells which is where I am right now. Searing light is a great undead-buster with long range, and Flamestrike is one of few 1d6/lvl Cleric spells. Granted the higher level stuff isn't so hot but I can probably pull off a domain change for the price of a geas and a little convincing.

Lin - Agreed on magic weapons. I'm currently thinking I'll just get an ordinary weapon. Biff's got me pretty well sold on crafting my own stuff as well - it'd practically pay for itself with the first 1000 saved on a suit of fullplate.

[Eldariel]

General
Turn Undead is a bad way to deal with Undead. Luckily Cleric's spell list is quite a bit better :smallwink: In Core, you don't really care about your Turning; you're much better off smacking butt with a two-hander. Longspear is a very respectable weapon, and you can always EWP for Spiked Chain. With 13 Int, you could go for Improved Trip, which is quite solid for controlling with a Cleric.


Attributes
Dump Charisma to all hell. Go:
Str 16
Dex 13
Con 12 (14 from Dwarf)
Int 13
Wis 17
Cha 10 (8 from Dwarf)

All your level-ups go to Wisdom. If you're smelling a fight, casting buffs is a good start. Note that buff rounds aren't that big of a problem since most of your buffs last 10 min/level (Enlarge Person from Strength-domain & Bull's Strength-line) so you can set them up a bit before likely encounter site and be pre-buffed, or let the enemy come to you and utilize Attacks of Opportunity.

Human is worthwhile, as you can see below: Warrior Clerics are the only really feat-starved class in Core. So yeah, something to consider. That said, never underestimate the impact of HP for a warrior. +1/level is a notable amount; I always avoid making characters with under 14 base Con, and prioritise Con-boosting items right after the main stat (Wis in your case, though you'll need to ask for reslotted ones, or use Ioun Stones as they're both Amulets by Core; MiC allows them in a wider variety of items or even the same item, but...).


Feats
Feats you'll want:
Combat Expertise > Improved Trip
Power Attack (somewhere down the line)
EWP: Spiked Chain (somewhere down the line; makes Trip very good, especially with Enlarge/Righteous Might)
Extend Spell + Quicken Spell (Extend for buffs, Quicken for stuff like Divine Favor, Silence and company)
Combat Reflexes (somewhere down the line)
Craft-feats

Leadership is insane if allowed, but that'd require a non-dump Charisma leaving you to dump Int or Dex instead. While Dex is a candidate thanks to your heavy armor, Initiative-checks would suffer and you couldn't take Combat Reflexes. But meh.


Spells
Then you'll want to master the Core Cleric Spells and pick your Domains. As a rule, the following Domains are good/decent in Core:
- Strength (mostly early on, for Enlarge Person)
- Travel (teleportation - an incredible utility tool + combat mobility for you, and a tactical advantage)
- Trickery (best high-level spells & stuff like Invisibility)
- Luck (great granted power, some nice high-level spells)

War isn't horrible if your deity has some good favored weapon (Guisarme, Glaive or similar would be optimal, but I don't think any of the Core deities have those), but other than that they aren't really very good.


Heal with Wand of Cure Light Wounds or two; purchase them, or Craft if you just can't seem to find any for sale in this world. It only takes one day to make one.

I made a small analysis of various Core Cleric Spells and their uses here:
Offense:
Level 1
Cause Fear: Nice Will Save-or-Lose as long as the HD limit isn't a problem; unfortunately single-target. Close range.
Command: Nice Will Save-or-Suck. Again, though, single-target. Close range.

Level 2
Hold Person: Humanoid SoL. Handy. Medium range.
Shatter: Destroy weapons, armor, etc. Nice combination with Dispels and such. Close range.
Silence: Caster Will SoL, or no-save effect if you have some control effects to prevent opponent from leaving the covered area. Also, nice readied action to screw spellcasting. Long range (!!) multi-target.
Sound Burst: Meh damage, with Fort-or-Stun. If you have someone to CDG the stunned guy, it's alright. The damage isn't the reason to pick it. Close range multi-target.
Spiritual Weapon: It's a decent damage spell, especially since Cleric BAB is pretty good; it'll keep attacking for effectively the entire combat and it takes only a move action to redirect.

Level 3
Bestow Curse: Will SoS. Clerics have lots of these. Good for debuffing Planar Bound creatures or such. Touch range.
Blindness/Deafness: Blindness is an excellent debuff. Fort SoS basically. Medium range.
Dispel Magic: Magic is very powerful, so ability to stop magic is absolutely incredible. Disable Fighter's gear, remove buffbots buffs, save your allies from variety of SoLs, infinitely powerful. Medium range multi-target.
Invisibility Purge: Well, not really offense, but still. 5'/level range.
Searing Light: Deals crap damage to living or slightly less crap damage to undead. Yuck. Medium range ray.

Level 4
Dimensional Anchor: Well, only way you'll ever kill those outsiders. Medium range.
Dismissal: Basically amounts to a limited Will SoD. Close range. It's nice 'cause you can make it notably harder than normal spell of yours to resist by using stuff the target hates with the spell.
Poison: Fort Save-or-BeHurtBad. Meh. Touch range. Yuck.

Level 5
Greater Command: Multitarget Command that lasts until they make a save. Pretty useful, if high level. Close range, 30' between victims, mind-affecting.
Plane Shift: Everyone knows of the spells transportation capabilities, but as long as your target cannot Plane Shift, sending someone to say...Positive Energy Plane is a very good way of killing people. Basically a Will SoD with Touch Range.
Slay Living: Fort SoD with some consolation damage. Touch.
Symbol of Pain: Symbols are fun. Paint a bunch of 'em on some item, reveal it and watch opposition roll saves. Rubber balls are pretty nice, for example. Your armor is a good place too. This one is practically a SoS.
Symbol of Sleep: See above. Nice little slumberparty here. Though Mind-Affecting begins to be a problem on these levels.

Level 6
Banishment: Like Dismissal, except stronger.
Blade Barrier: Meh, it's a solid battlefield morphing ability that's also Ref-or-Take-Some-Damage. Not bad. Medium range.
Greater Dispel Magic: See Dispel Magic.
Harm: Fort or Take Damage. Meh. Fine for e.g. channeling tho. Touch.
Symbol of Fear: See Symbol of Pain. Basically SoL version. Annoyingly Mind-Affecting.
Symbol of Persuasion: See Symbol of Pain. Basically SoL version. Annoyingly Mind-Affecting.
Undeath to Death: Great for killing undead. Medium range 40' bunch.

Level 7
Blasphemy/Dictum/Holy Word/Word of Chaos: Boost your caster level and world will tremble. No-save death or at least be screwed depending on your CL. Only SR can save people here (and with your buffed CL, rarely).
Destruction: Fort SoD. Close range. Nice 10d6 consolation damage.
Dimensional Lock: Like Dimensional Anchor, except gotta somehow restrict opponent's movement, but it offers no save.
Symbol of Stunning: See Symbol of Pain, SoL version.
Symbol of Weakness: See Symbol of Pain, SoS version (most characters can't carry their stuff after that Fort-damage).

Level 8
Earthquake: A rather versatile offense spell that can be used to lock down opponents or such depending on terrain. Damage isn't impressive but the conditions it can impose, often without save, are. Also nicely stops activity while it's going. If DM says the save stops the Pinned-condition too, it becomes much worse.
Fire Storm: Deals a bunch of damage. Meh.
Symbol of Death: See Symbol of Pain, SoD version.
Symbol of Insanity: See Symbol of Pain, Will SoD version. Meh at mind-affecting.

Level 9
Miracle: It does everything, most without XP cost. Just about the best level 9 spell in the game.
Gate: Solars are good.
Implosion: Boom Boom. Kinda expensive, but at least it can kill multiple folks.
Field Alteration + Ally Generation:
Level 1
Obscuring Mist: Nice way to stop annoying targeted spells, archery and such. Gives melee full miss chance thoo. Limits yourself too tho. Personal range.
Summon Monster I: See the Malconvoker Handbook.

Level 2
Darkness: Older version of Darkness. Touch range, can toss the object or such.
Summon Monster II: See the Malconvoker Handbook.

Level 3
Animate Dead: Material components are kinda meh. Eternally usable and faithful underlings are pretty handy though, if you can afford them.
Daylight: Mostly when dealing with Underdark races, Undead and such. Touch like Darkness.
Deeper Darkness: Sorta like Darkness. Unfortunately, it's not as Dark as it should be. Fogs >>> Darkness. Touch like Darkness.
Stone Shape: I don't honestly need to state in how many ways morphing stone can be useful, do I? Touch.
Summon Monster III: See the Malconvoker Handbook.
Wind Wall: Pretty nice especially in larger conflicts where large squads of archers are a concern. There are pretty few ways archers can by RAW shoot through this, though you could argue that big enough bows and force projectiles would.

Level 4
Control Water: Very nice when water is available for drowning places, killing waterbreathing creatures in shallow waters and such. Just, useful. Long range.
Giant Vermin: You shouldn't really bother with anything less than Gargantuans, but with CL buffs those are available pretty quickly and particularly Colossal Scorpion is very efficient even against CR 20 challenges as long as the area is thus that they cannot just fly away (you can help with that); they have very high Attack-stats and the poisons are extremely potent.
Lesser Planar Ally: Solid allies, even if it's expensive to call. Try to call 'em when it falls under the "strongly ties to creature's ethos"; that's free and the XP cost isn't really that major. And Outsiders are pretty darn good allies.
Summon Monster IV: See the Malconvoker Handbook.

Level 5
Insect Plague: Swarms are hardy, but unfortunately not very damaging at this point anymore. The Distraction-function is handy, but beyond that it's not very good. Long range tho.
Summon Monster V: See the Malconvoker Handbook.
Wall of Stone: One of Wizard's best battlefield control spells is no worse for Cleric. Isolate enemies, buy time, block entries, make death prisons, whatever. Reflex if used to encase people. Medium range.

Level 6
Animate Object: Unfortunately Animated Objects have horrible BAB and such so they don't hit much. The special attacks are somewhat usable tho. Generally best with Permanency. Medium range.
Antilife Shell: A very strong defensive buff, here because you can morph the battlefield with it. Living creatures simply can't approach the area around you. NO SAVE! 10' radius.
Create Undead: Some of the undead are very useful. This is an expensive spell, but as the undead can multiply, provided it's not against your alignment, this can be very very handy.
Planar Ally: See Lesser Planar Ally.
Summon Monster VI: See the Malconvoker Handbook.

Level 7
Control Weather: Slow to cast, but great for demolishing armies, cities and such. Not quite as strong as the 5th level Druid-spell Control Winds, but much more versatile.
Repulsion: Like Antilife Shell vs. anything, but with Will-save to negate. I don't like it nearly as much.
Summon Monster VII: See the Malconvoker Handbook.

Level 8
Antimagic Field: Magic's good, all that jazz. Also, Initiate of Mystra makes this the most one-sided, unfair spell ever. 10' radius (suggest Widening; see Rules Compendium for relevant stuff regarding rules on this, it always confuses people).
Create Greater Undead: See Create Undead.
Summon Monster VIII: See the Malconvoker Handbook.

Level 9
Miracle: It does everything, most without XP cost. Just about the best level 9 spell in the game.
Gate: Solars are good.
Summon Monster IX: See the Malconvoker Handbook.
Defense + Buff:
Level 1
Bless: Not amazing, but every bonus is a bonus. The more characters, the better.
Endure Elements: Eh, obvious utility.
Magic Stone: Handy buff for Sling-users. Note that sling is a solid ranged level 1 weapon for high Str types, being quite light, almost free and adding Str to damage.
Magic Weapon: Handy buff for anyone. If a bit small.
Protection from Alignment: Great buff, stops all mind control in addition to solid Deflection/Resistance.
Sanctuary: Obvious utility, you aren't attacking anyways, so... Also can be used to protect another, who's about to go down.
Shield of Faith: Touch-spell that grants nice Deflection-bonus to AC.

Level 2
Aid: Mostly just Bless with few additional Temp HP. Pretty weak beyond the first levels.
Align Weapon: Occasionally absolutely crucial with early opponents packing some pesky DRs.
Bull's Strength & al.: Handy early on.
Resist Energy: Great vs. casters and energy-based creatures and just environment.

Level 3
Magic Circle against Alignment: Like Protection, except area-of-effect and stops summoned creatures and such. Handy. 10' area.
Magic Vestment: One of the best buffs in the game, allows you to, especially in conjuction with Animated Shields and such, give everyone decent AC. Use with caster level boosters for early +5s all day.
Meld into Stone: Fine "Invisibility"-substitute that's not trumped by most spells. It's hard to detect your presence without heavy magical scanning.
Prayer: Short-duration Bless (with Luck-bonus tho) and a penalty to enemies. Meh.
Protection from Energy: Like Resist Energy except complete immunity to certain threshold. I prefer Resist Energy though sometimes, when taking huge blazing balls of fire, this is better.
Water Breathing: Too obvious.
Water Walk: Yeah.

Level 4
Air Walk: Obvious. Notably, you still walk so stuff depending on jumping and such should work normally. Nice duration, though not 1h/level. Touch.
Imbue with Spell Ability: Divine Favor is a nice one, for example. Personal spells in general.
Greater Magic Weapon: Like Magic Vestment, except for weapons. The nice part is that Clerics can buff their CL like crazy so you'll have +5s in the mid-teens. Close range.
Spell Immunity: Stuff such as Enervation and such is very solid to protect people from. Touch.

Level 5
Disrupting Weapon: Kills undead. Handy in Undead-heavy scenarios. With iteratives, it amounts to a whole ton of SoDs vs. Undead. Touch-range.
Spell Resistance: 12+CL is a nice amount, without cap, especially for a Cleric. It's Touch so it can be used to ward the entire party and it's nice 10 min/level (if it only were 1 hour/level...).
True Seeing: Too obvious.

Level 6
Mass Bull's Strength & al.: When you have hordes of servants/underlings/whatever, these can be worthwhile. Party will just buy gear.
Heroes' Feast: Extend it for 24-hour Fear-immunity and Morale-bonus to Hit and Will-saves. One is enough to feed the entire party and then some. Should be staple once you get it given the DCs of the fear auras some creatures have.
Wind Walk: Kinda like your version of Teleport. Nice travel-spell if actual Teleportation is not available.
Word of Recall: Solid replication of one function of Teleportation. Nice overall.

Level 7
Ethereal Jaunt: Decent escape spell tho only 1 round/level and Personal.
Refuge: Nice "Oh ****"-Contingency to give to e.g. party Rogue or someone else bound to get into trouble alone.

Level 8
Cloak of Chaos/Holy Aura/Shield of Law/Unholy Aura: Decent defensive alignment-buffs, though they unfortunately don't stack with common protective items. There's still the "successful attack requires will-save vs. Confusion" and multi-targeting going on for it tho. Again, very solid if you have unequipped underlings.
Greater Spell Immunity: Good for the same reason Spell Immunity is good.

Level 9
Astral Projection: You pay some for effective immortality, especially combined with Plane Shift. Basically, you create a clone of yourself, for which dying doesn't make any difference. It's great how Plane Shift is a level 5 spell for Clerics. Multitarget.
Miracle: It does everything, most without XP cost. Just about the best level 9 spell in the game.
Etherealness: Handy for bypassing places and spying on things and killing ethereal issues and so on. And for staying out. I don't like spending level 9 slots on this tho.

[Boci]

Lin - Agreed on magic weapons. I'm currently thinking I'll just get an ordinary weapon. Biff's got me pretty well sold on crafting my own stuff as well - it'd practically pay for itself with the first 1000 saved on a suit of fullplate.

If you are wearing a full plate, both humans and dwarves will have the same speed. Humans are only faster in light or no armour.

[Prodan]

Stat bonus from Dwarf doesn't seem that good. Like I said, I'd imagine the Horc Str bonus is more useful than Con. Con would give me +1 hp/lvl and +1 Fort. That's about it. Str would give me +1 attacks, +2 damage with a 2handed weapon (16 str = mod 3, 2hand weapon does 1.5x str, 3x1.5=4.5 round down to 4, but 4x1.5=6). They're probably equally useful in terms of skill bonuses.

This seems confirmed by the fact that the Dwarf gets only -Cha while the Horc gets -2Cha and -2Int.

Your analysis and reasoning are incorrect.

[fracas]

Your analysis and reasoning are incorrect.

That may be, but your unsupported statement isn't going to convince me.

[Eldariel]

That may be, but your unsupported statement isn't going to convince me.

HP is one of your more important defenses; it's generally impossible to entirely stop yourself from taking damage (without higher level magicks anyways) and there are natural 20s waiting to be rolled. There are very few attacks that bypass HP though, and Clerics happen to be very strong against basically all of them (magical defenses & restoration against energy/stat drain, very high Fort & Will-saves) so all you need is lots of HP to round out the equation and avoid insta-gibs.

Also, Reflex is your worst save, but most Reflex-save targeting things deal HP damage and more of it when you fail a save, so having more HP tangentially covers for your Reflex-save too.


Half-Orc simply gives up too much to be worth it for anything, really. Dwarf gets lots of great class features, while Half-Orc gets net negative stat modifiers and...one ability? Str is weaker than Con or Dex anyways since you only need it for some melee builds and in your case, most of your Str will come from spells.

In the end you'll have Righteous Might and Divine Power on, which gives you composite +10 Str putting you at 26 which is +8, which means you get full (+12) benefit from two-handed wielding. So yeah, Dwarf or Human.

[Lin Bayaseda]

That +2 Str will become useless on high levels.

When we started our core-only campain a over a year ago (Feb 2009), my wife made a melee-oriented Cleric with Str 15. She is now level 11, and has enough spells to last not 4, but 14 encounters per day. She still has Str 15, but last time she made a melee attack was, I believe, still in 2009.

+2 Con on the other hand? I've never seen a character of any class that didn't need a few more HP and a better FOR save.

[fracas]

Eldariel - great! That simplifies my job a lot. Taking your advice on most of what you said. Forget Turning. Going Human spiked chain with maybe . Still pondering Leadership. Seems like as long as my Cha isn't negative my level will always give me a high enough ranking for a max-level cohort 2 levels below me. Am I missing something?

As for Horc, I see your points (purely academic since I already went Human). My only concern is that at lvl 5, if an average combat lasts 5 rounds, I do an extra 10 damage by having +str. If that 10 damage kills a creature one round earlier, then I've saved myself or someone else the amount of damage the creature would have done. Since most everything at lvl 5 will deal more than 5 damage on a hit, I've potentially saved myself or someone else more damage than the 5 hp I could have had. And then I get a +1 attack on top of it.

Anyway, back to the build at hand:

Str 16 Dex 13 Con 12 Int 13 Wis 17 Cha 10 (actually I didn't have a 10 but whatevs)

Feats
Human: Power Attack
1: Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Spiked Chain
3: Craft Wondrous Item
5: Combat Expertise? Extend Spell? Combat Reflexes? Craft Arms&Armor? One of the above. :p

Items
MW armorsmithing tools
Rod of Extend, Lesser, 3000gp -> 1500gp+120xp (unless I get Extend Spell instead)
Gauntlets of Ogre Power (+2 str), 4000gp -> 2000gp+160xp
Spiked chain (masterwork? maybe)
Heavy mace (backup for bludgeoning damage)
MW fullplate
Probably an item of Con boost and/or Wis boost

Still undecided on domains and spell selection. Your summary sounds like a great start although I think you're a little too hard on searing ray. Clerics don't get many 1d6/lvl damage spells (at least it does that much against undead), and searing ray is helped by having long range and being a touch attack (especially nice considering my low dex).

The Glory domain looks like it doesn't start to take off until 4th level spells... maybe. I'll have to see what DM's position on domain switching is. Aside from that Strength and Travel look good, but I'm tempted by Biff's idea using the Plant domain for defensive buffs. Was the phantom fungus augmented by the Plant domain or just a random neat selection for Summon Nature's Ally?

EDIT: Rebuke/Command Plants. Duh. Any other suggestions along those lines? I'm pretty happy with the current option but variety is always good.

[Optimystik]

I don't think you should toss Turning entirely. In core only, there's not much else you can do with the class feature, so you might as well use it. With 10 Cha, a single casting of Eagle's Splendor brings you to 14, a decent modifier to send all the skellies clattering for the nearest exit - those that survive.

I do agree that, as a melee cleric, you're better off optimizing that aspect of your character than grabbing domains like Sun and pumping your Cha, but a powerful AoE no-save-just-suck is not to be dismissed lightly.

[Eldariel]

I don't think you should toss Turning entirely. In core only, there's not much else you can do with the class feature, so you might as well use it. With 10 Cha, a single casting of Eagle's Splendor brings you to 14, a decent modifier to send all the skellies clattering for the nearest exit - those that survive.

I do agree that, as a melee cleric, you're better off optimizing that aspect of your character than grabbing domains like Sun and pumping your Cha, but a powerful AoE no-save-just-suck is not to be dismissed lightly.

It's just that undead tend to be of much higher HD than their CR, or possess very large Turn Resistance in other cases which means unoptimized Turning just doesn't accomplish all that much against threats (not to mention, it's pretty useless against Incorporeals since they'll just run through walls until Turning wears off and then come back).

But yeah, you don't really need Charisma. It's an option to keep in the back pocket. Frankly, I'd rather retain them for the "channeling energy"-function described in the Turn Undead-entry; that's often useful in various quests and dungeons, and since you don't need to turn undead, you'll have a few uses. Though Circlet of Persuasion later on would help if you do intend on actually turning anything ever. But again, I wouldn't bother.


Still undecided on domains and spell selection. Your summary sounds like a great start although I think you're a little too hard on searing ray. Clerics don't get many 1d6/lvl damage spells (at least it does that much against undead), and searing ray is helped by having long range and being a touch attack (especially nice considering my low dex).

I'm...quite competent when it comes to the rule set. The reason I rated it as such is that 1d6/lvl spells are just...rather bad. Generally, if you invest a spell slot in it, you'd better force a save on one of its weak saves on your targets (or multiple targets if possible) than deal some damage.

You can deal damage with attacks; you don't really need spells for that (though on long ranges, it's well possible the spell would deal more; at that point, it may be prudent to cast Teleport). It's the same reason the Fireball-line and company are quite weak in D&D 3.5.

[fracas]

Making incorporeals run sounds useful to me. That way if we're being mobbed by mixed undead including incorporeals, we can send the incorps packing for 2 minutes while we finish off the others and heal up as needed.

I wouldn't totally dump turning, just doesn't seem worth optimizing for considering feats are in short supply and other feats are usable against everything rather than just undead. But like you said Eagle's Splendor is a casting away and I can always cast detect undead to have it ready in advance.

[Eldariel]

Making incorporeals run sounds useful to me. That way if we're being mobbed by mixed undead including incorporeals, we can send the incorps packing for 2 minutes while we finish off the others and heal up as needed.

I wouldn't totally dump turning, just doesn't seem worth optimizing for considering feats are in short supply and other feats are usable against everything rather than just undead. But like you said Eagle's Splendor is a casting away and I can always cast detect undead to have it ready in advance.

Oh, and with regards to spells (á la Eagle's Splendor) that you might not use daily, get scrolls. Seriously. Cleric has very versatile spellcasting (though not quite as versatile as Wizard, of course) and there's a lot of no-save/no-CL effects you really want as scrolls, like Silence, Eagle's Splendor, Wind Wall and so on.

They aren't useful all the time (though Silence is good enough to prepare at least one of daily; it has lots of uses besides screwing spellcasters with AoE or SoD too), but when they are, they can bust encounters wide open. Wands are more expensive and should rather probably supplement your daily spell selection or cover spells you cast lots and don't want to prepare for that reason (á la Cure Light Wounds; most efficient out-of-combat curing and only 750gp for a Wand).


As for incorporeals, it's...situationally useful, but generally I find that incorporeals tend to be in team with other incorporeals and corporeals with other corporeals in which case it's pretty weak. But yeah, obviously it's an option you should keep in mind; just, it's rarely your best option.

[fracas]

Heh. DM asked me to reroll my abilities (all rolls in public policy, not a bad idea). So I have new scores and they're actually quite a bit better than what I had. How's this look?

Bones, human cleric5
Str 16 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 13 Wis 17+1 Cha 11 HP 41

I figured Dex was worth the 14 for +1 ranged attacks... I'm not really in need of more skill points though of course they couldn't hurt.

Feats: Power attack (human), EWP spiked chain (1), Craft Wondrous (3), Combat Expertise (5 - Pick up Imp Trip at lvl 7)

Domains: Plant (any way to buy a third domain?), Strength/Travel/Magic (undecided) - any way to pick up a third domain?

Items: MW armorsmith tools, Rod of Lesser Extend, MW spiked chain (do I need a backup weapon that does bludgeoning? Heavy mace?), MW fullplate. Nonmagic gear crafted to save money.

Turning: 5/day, +9 (+2 bonus from 5 ranks in K. Religion)

Spells: TBD

Thoughts?

[tiercel]

Travel is just a nice domain, even when you're not Core-only. Most domains make you choose between a good granted power, or a decent domain spell list. But Travel?

Well your granted power isn't that much different than permanent freedom of movement for the intent of combat, and freedom of movement is very, very, very nice when any of the situations it applies to come up (especially if you are going to be wading into the front lines and exposing yourself to possible grapple/slowing/paralysis/entangling effects).

And your spell list? Well let's see, you'll spend much of your adventuring day moving at Speed 30 in full plate and you can fly (at least 1/day). If you do take the Plant domain, you don't care about Travel giving you locate object at 2nd level since your 2nd level domain spell will be barkskin forever.

[fracas]

Sounds convincing to me. I load my spell list mostly with combat spells and some common utilities, carry a bunch of scrolls for the rare-but-need-it-in-a-hurry-when-you-need-it category, and Travel can keep me moving without eating other slots. Many of the Plant spells aren't so great anyway. Plant Growth? Yeah, I'll be using that every day in the jungle. :p

[AxeD]

Feats: Power attack (human), EWP spiked chain (1), Craft Wondrous (3), Combat Expertise (5 - Pick up Imp Trip at lvl 7)


How are you getting feats at lvl 5 & 7?

[fracas]

Uhh, brainfart. Meant H, 1, 3, 6, 9... it's been a while. :p