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knightMARE
2010-06-07, 09:27 AM
I've been told, and noticed from personal experience, that there are problems with running campaigns in old World of Darkness with mixed groups of supernaturals. As I come to understand it, the power structure looks something like this:

Mage > WereX > Vampire > Hunter

Where would other old World of Darkness supernaturals fit into this ? (Demon, Changeling, Promethean, Mummy etc.). What about their Dark Ages equivalents? (Dark Ages Fae and Vampire mainly, but other info is always useful).

And finally, does anyone have any tips/advice on how to deal with a group of mixed players?

GreyMantle
2010-06-07, 10:07 AM
The problem with oWoD is that the writers literally prided themselves on not writing balanced material because they were too busy with "flavor." Unsurprisingly, this had some rather unfortunate results, namely that huge power gaps exist both within supernatural types and between different supernatural types.

If you really want a more balanced system that allows for interactions between multiple types of supernaturals, you could try using Alternate World of Darkness (http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=50434). It's basically a rewrite that combines the flavor and style of oWoD with an improved ruleset. And it's specifically designed to accomodate say, a Coterie consisting of a Ventrue, a Werewolf, and a Golem.

Satyr
2010-06-07, 10:27 AM
Despite taking place in the same world, the different lines of the WoD are very different games in their moot and scale; Werewolf as the one extreme is a pretty epic game where characters face cosmic horrors on a regular base; hunter on the other extreme, is a game where one single equivalent to a PC in any of other game lines is a Big Bad in its own right.
Thus, the difference in power is not only inevitable, its pretty damn necessary.

In addition, a different power level is not much of a problem if every body involved is aware of it and can cope with it. If your players cannot cope with it, a crossover campaign might be a bad idea in the first place.

If I were you, I'd try to a) take a core story to take as a base line, and then include other mythologies on this base. And I would only allow one outsider of the usual story, otherwise your campaign will devolve in a kitchen sink freak show. Then create a good reason to why the outsider hangs around with these very other guys (like: "He might be a Mage, but he is still Kinfolk, and he is family" or something like that.).

RagnaroksChosen
2010-06-07, 11:11 AM
I've been told, and noticed from personal experience, that there are problems with running campaigns in old World of Darkness with mixed groups of supernaturals. As I come to understand it, the power structure looks something like this:

Mage > WereX > Vampire > Hunter

Where would other old World of Darkness supernaturals fit into this ? (Demon, Changeling, Promethean, Mummy etc.). What about their Dark Ages equivalents? (Dark Ages Fae and Vampire mainly, but other info is always useful).

And finally, does anyone have any tips/advice on how to deal with a group of mixed players?


Demon > Mage> werewolves(and some wereX not all) > vampire > Other where X>hunter>changling>mummy.

Not sure about promethean as i've never played.

Demon pritty much takes the cake as far as power levels go.. Realy mixing species depends on the builds. I've seen some munchkin vampires be able to keep up with lycans as well as some badly built mages not out shining vampire.


What does your group want to mix and whats the general idea behind each character /why there working together?

Ice&Fire
2010-06-07, 05:12 PM
Demon > Mage> werewolves(and some wereX not all) > vampire > Other where X>hunter>changling>mummy.

Not sure about promethean as i've never played.

Demon pritty much takes the cake as far as power levels go.. Realy mixing species depends on the builds. I've seen some munchkin vampires be able to keep up with lycans as well as some badly built mages not out shining vampire.


What does your group want to mix and whats the general idea behind each character /why there working together?
:smalleek: Demon > Mage?

The group is planning to start as mortals, work together as a group for a time and slowly awaken to their respective powers, hopefully still being able to work together afterwards

RagnaroksChosen
2010-06-07, 05:43 PM
:smalleek: Demon > Mage?

The group is planning to start as mortals, work together as a group for a time and slowly awaken to their respective powers, hopefully still being able to work together afterwards

Yes demons are greater then mage. they can are reality most of there abilities trump mages. though to be honest demon the fallen mythos breaks alot of story esc stuff from all the others. Liek the other species can easily be worked to gether demons alot harder.

Gnaeus
2010-06-07, 06:07 PM
Demon > Mage> werewolves(and some wereX not all) > vampire > Other where X>hunter>changling>mummy.

Demon pritty much takes the cake as far as power levels go.. Realy mixing species depends on the builds. I've seen some munchkin vampires be able to keep up with lycans as well as some badly built mages not out shining vampire.


I have to take issue with some of your rankings Ragnaroks. I suspect that it has to do with optimization levels and XP. I agree with your ranking assuming a low optimization game at low-mid xp.

I agree that basic Demon beats basic Mage, but as they gain XP mages can literally do anything, and Demons can't. In most games raw power does not = unlimited versatility.

Mummies and Changelings who optimize can beat optimized werewolves and vampires. With mummies it was all about the Truenaming power, and for changelings it was the teleport style power IIRC. Truenaming was way broken, and I recall hearing lots of stories by changeling fans (of which I am not one) of teleporting vampires into the Sahara desert, and similar tricks.

awa
2010-06-07, 06:15 PM
Werewolves are a lot like barbarians if you can solve the problem by hitting it repeatedly a werewolf if brutal. A starting were wolf with 10 rage 9str and a fang dagger can shred virtual any other starting charecter with little difficulty and be virtual unkillable. But if you ask it to do anything other then hit stuff hes much more limited.
The thing is you basically cant make a noncombatant werewolf even if you take only noncombat options you still have agg damage and soak and large boosts to physical stats

RagnaroksChosen
2010-06-07, 06:22 PM
I have to take issue with some of your rankings Ragnaroks. I suspect that it has to do with optimization levels and XP. I agree with your ranking assuming a low optimization game at low-mid xp.

I agree that basic Demon beats basic Mage, but as they gain XP mages can literally do anything, and Demons can't. In most games raw power does not = unlimited versatility.

Mummies and Changelings who optimize can beat optimized werewolves and vampires. With mummies it was all about the Truenaming power, and for changelings it was the teleport style power IIRC. Truenaming was way broken, and I recall hearing lots of stories by changeling fans (of which I am not one) of teleporting vampires into the Sahara desert, and similar tricks.


Its more of the fact that i belive(don't have demon book here) is tht they talk about being immune to a bunch of spheres of magic. they can take brutal str. plus i meen its hard to kill a demon they kinda come back .
twords higher rankings demons can pritty much do any thing. creation at there finger tips.

as for mummies, i disagree. even power gamed i bet a were wolf only slightly optimised could tear them limb from limb without a secound though.

Changlings i may have miss placed my interaction with them is very limited. Having only played a redcap and a saytar i can't realy speak alot for em.

Gnaeus
2010-06-07, 06:49 PM
Its more of the fact that i belive(don't have demon book here) is tht they talk about being immune to a bunch of spheres of magic. they can take brutal str. plus i meen its hard to kill a demon they kinda come back .
twords higher rankings demons can pritty much do any thing. creation at there finger tips.

I ran the larp playtest (using tabletop rules) for the Demon designers. Like werewolves, they have a lot of raw power. They do not have anything near the flexibility of dynamic magic. Mages can also make themselves immune to many Demon powers, with the right spheres.


as for mummies, i disagree. even power gamed i bet a were wolf only slightly optimised could tear them limb from limb without a secound though.

It depends what you think equals power. You are absolutely right that typical werewolf can own a mummy in melee (although that is only a temporary setback for the mummy). On the other hand, the mummy could crush an elder vampire or garou with a little bit of research into their name. If the werewolf kills a mummy, and the mummy comes back to life 10 years (or 20, or 50, or 100) later (which the were CANNOT prevent) after the werewolf has died fighting valiantly for gaia, kidnaps all his kinfolk and sells them into slavery in a pentex factory in cambodia and builds a parking lot on his caern, is that really a win for the wolf?

RagnaroksChosen
2010-06-07, 07:09 PM
I ran the larp playtest (using tabletop rules) for the Demon designers. Like werewolves, they have a lot of raw power. They do not have anything near the flexibility of dynamic magic. Mages can also make themselves immune to many Demon powers, with the right spheres.



It depends what you think equals power. You are absolutely right that typical werewolf can own a mummy in melee (although that is only a temporary setback for the mummy). On the other hand, the mummy could crush an elder vampire or garou with a little bit of research into their name. If the werewolf kills a mummy, and the mummy comes back to life 10 years (or 20, or 50, or 100) later (which the were CANNOT prevent) after the werewolf has died fighting valiantly for gaia, kidnaps all his kinfolk and sells them into slavery in a pentex factory in cambodia and builds a parking lot on his caern, is that really a win for the wolf?

As demons are immune to many of the mages abilities.

See again the problem with comparing some of the non mainstream books like mummy and demon is that there issue with story. such as are wehere wolves penned in the book of thoth or what not because that would make nominclature pritty much usless against them. Never mind the fact that im sure if a werewolf wanted to he could find his way to the land of the dead and destroy the mummy in spirit form.

so again it realy depends. its like trying to argue which comic book group is superior dc or marvel.

Gnaeus
2010-06-07, 07:24 PM
As demons are immune to many of the mages abilities.

Sure, but when you are talking about relative power, in my opinion, the guy who can do anything he can think of is ahead of the guy with a static list of powers, even if those powers are pretty neat.


See again the problem with comparing some of the non mainstream books like mummy and demon is that there issue with story. such as are wehere wolves penned in the book of thoth or what not because that would make nominclature pritty much usless against them.

Sure you could make up some arbitrary rules that would nerf one side or the other. Neither rules system says that mummy powers don't work on werewolves. You could just as easily say that gifts don't work on vampires because they are immune to spirit possession. The default is pretty much that your powers work normally unless stated otherwise.


Never mind the fact that im sure if a werewolf wanted to he could find his way to the land of the dead and destroy the mummy in spirit form.

Very few werewolves can enter the realm of the dead. An elder silent strider might have a chance to do what you are talking about. In a battle between standard werewolf and standard mummy as ghost, it is much easier for the mummy to hurt the werewolf (like, by passing word to his other milennia old mummy friends) than the other way around.

RagnaroksChosen
2010-06-07, 07:54 PM
Sure, but when you are talking about relative power, in my opinion, the guy who can do anything he can think of is ahead of the guy with a static list of powers, even if those powers are pretty neat.



Very few werewolves can enter the realm of the dead. An elder silent strider might have a chance to do what you are talking about. In a battle between standard werewolf and standard mummy as ghost, it is much easier for the mummy to hurt the werewolf (like, by passing word to his other milennia old mummy friends) than the other way around.

True though like i said a majority of mage immaterial when fighting demons.


I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I still don't see how mummy is more powerful yes they keep coming back and what not, in the long run they may win simply from persistence but generally i'd look at it as a win if they where put away for 100 years.

tiercel
2010-06-07, 08:15 PM
Well part of what makes a big difference too will be if there are one or more Mages playing along with shapeshifters and vamps, at least one of them had better be darned sure they have dots in Life -- squishy humans don't bounce back from combat SNAFUs very well on their own.

That said, the open-endedness of the magic system for Mage means that at least potentially, sooner or later a mage can do most anything... and that's pretty sweet. Getting yourself into enough trouble and out of it while you still have limited Magick and Arete dots is the trick, though... (OTOH, if you're clever and creative enough to get your limited resources to do the job for you, by time you've earned your way into extra dots you really will be frickin' Batman -- without even needing prep time.)

knightMARE
2010-06-07, 08:42 PM
Thanks for the input. One of the group members is looking at playing a Demon, another as a gurahl. One is trying to convince me to let him play a dark ages fae or dark ages vampire, the final as a mage. I'm not too sure on the respective power of dark ages material.

The information I've been getting so far is much appreciated, thankyou :smallbiggrin:

Friv
2010-06-07, 08:53 PM
The big problem is that most of the groups are very strong or very weak in a wide variety of situations.

First, every group has a few powers that are just blatantly broken (such as some Thaumaturgy paths for vampires, or the Naming Art for changelings). You have to generally discount those in order to get a good idea of power balance.

Vampires and werewolves are the most straightforwards, because their strengths and weaknesses are up-front and direct. Weres generally beat vampires, discounting really weird builds.

Mages are phenomenally powerful in theory, but if they get caught off-guard in a crowd they're just plain screwed. Witnesses mess them over in ways almost no one else cares about, and they need a lot of lead time to put together any useful spells. Mages also depend on ST calls more than any other group, because STs decide on paradox and on what Sphere levels and success ratings are needed for spells to succeed with very little rules guidance.

Wraiths are the Stratego spy of the setting. They pretty much win against people who can't affect them, and almost always get crushed by people who can affect them. Most other supernatural groups have one or two subsets that can do this (Giovanni vampires, Spirit/Entropy mages, sluagh changelings, etc.)

Changelings are phenomenally dangerous against anyone with low Banality, and phenomenally useless against high-Banality people. The exception are optimized combat changelings designed to just much with themselves. These guys... do a metric crapton of damage very, very quickly and then have to go find some artist to soul-eat because they're out of juice.

Hunters are the weakest group as a rule. They have much more limited power sets than anyone else, have fewer innate benefits, and have very few powers that are not either "fight supernaturals" or "protect people from supernaturals".

Demons are basically weres on crack. They have stronger crinos forms, stronger magic, lower XP costs on their magic IIRC, and hit high-tier powers really fast. Also, if you include them, be advised that the basic Forge crafting power falls into the "unstoppably broken" category I noted above.

From my limited experience, mummies are stronger than vampires and slightly stronger than werewolves, plus they can't be killed. On the flip side, they can't easily recover energy outside of their home turf, which is strictly limited geographically.

knightMARE
2010-06-08, 09:14 AM
The big problem is that most of the groups are very strong or very weak in a wide variety of situations.

First, every group has a few powers that are just blatantly broken (such as some Thaumaturgy paths for vampires, or the Naming Art for changelings). You have to generally discount those in order to get a good idea of power balance.

Vampires and werewolves are the most straightforwards, because their strengths and weaknesses are up-front and direct. Weres generally beat vampires, discounting really weird builds.

Mages are phenomenally powerful in theory, but if they get caught off-guard in a crowd they're just plain screwed. Witnesses mess them over in ways almost no one else cares about, and they need a lot of lead time to put together any useful spells. Mages also depend on ST calls more than any other group, because STs decide on paradox and on what Sphere levels and success ratings are needed for spells to succeed with very little rules guidance.

Wraiths are the Stratego spy of the setting. They pretty much win against people who can't affect them, and almost always get crushed by people who can affect them. Most other supernatural groups have one or two subsets that can do this (Giovanni vampires, Spirit/Entropy mages, sluagh changelings, etc.)

Changelings are phenomenally dangerous against anyone with low Banality, and phenomenally useless against high-Banality people. The exception are optimized combat changelings designed to just much with themselves. These guys... do a metric crapton of damage very, very quickly and then have to go find some artist to soul-eat because they're out of juice.

Hunters are the weakest group as a rule. They have much more limited power sets than anyone else, have fewer innate benefits, and have very few powers that are not either "fight supernaturals" or "protect people from supernaturals".

Demons are basically weres on crack. They have stronger crinos forms, stronger magic, lower XP costs on their magic IIRC, and hit high-tier powers really fast. Also, if you include them, be advised that the basic Forge crafting power falls into the "unstoppably broken" category I noted above.

From my limited experience, mummies are stronger than vampires and slightly stronger than werewolves, plus they can't be killed. On the flip side, they can't easily recover energy outside of their home turf, which is strictly limited geographically.

Thankyou thats exactly the kind of information I love recieving :smallsmile:
Demon appears to be alot more powerful than I had originally thought

Deadmeat.GW
2010-06-08, 12:54 PM
Changelings can be really ridiculous if you let them drag things/people/<fill-in-supernatural-x-here> into the Deep Dreaming or if they have high levels of the movement powers.

The first bit can go into the ridiculous REALLY fast (hi, harmless little Pooka can shapeshift into anything mythical at all with ALL their powers and advantages plus the Changeling stuff thrown on top...) but requires a lot of attention of the ST to make sure whatever they have planned did not just go completely out of the window.

Nothing derailes a campaign as fast as Pooka who drags all of his enemies to the Deep Dreaming (affects the area around it instead of a specific target, making it very, very difficult to stop, you are now just no longer in Kansas...), for free gets to change into say an Elder Dragon with all bells and whistles (i.e. the kinda thing a Werewolf tribe teams up for to fight it...and even then they tend to get mostly killed) while using their normal powers to mess any tactics up.
In the Deep Dreaming a Redcap for instance could quite easily scare a Wraith to dead, and I mean literally to dead because you will have tiny difficulties to scare stuff and you can there eat ANYTHING...even if it is technically not physical.

The thing is that Changelings are very fragile untill they act compaired to almost any of the other supernaturals.
They are the glass deathstars of the WoD.

In the right circumstances they are literally Gods, crushing anything, mage using a power and you disagree with it? Simple, he does not get to use that power as you don't want him to have any power (certain Changelings can do that kind of thing in the Deep Dreaming).
Demon shows up and wants to do something while you are prepared?
Make a willpower test versus difficulty 14 or are unable to act at all...
(Sidhe in the Deep Dreaming with specific powers, heck the basic difficulty for a peasant /starting pc without any nobility advantages is 7 already in the near dreaming)
Can't roll 6 success on a Willpower roll which all have to be 10's?
Your cowed for as long as the Sidhe effectively wants it.

As an ST Deep Dreaming and other such shenanigans are to be avoided at all cost as your game is going to be really rapidly devolving into uther insanity.

But going maximised teleporting power and maximised targets/area of effect can kill/disable/defeat anything so you don't really need it.

If your changeling has ever been to any of the deep dreaming places on her/his/it's travels you can literally send the enemy to wherever he will die most effectively or be permanently pre-occupied.
Eternal daylight place for a vampire?

And if they have access to Time travel things get even worse...

I got killed, I did not like that, lets go back to that point and do this over but prepared now.
On top of that their Time travel makes other Time effects a lot more difficult, plus 1 difficulty per dot in it, up to 6 dots.

BobVosh
2010-06-08, 01:05 PM
Demon > Mage> werewolves(and some wereX not all) > vampire > Other where X>hunter>changling>mummy.

Where do wraiths fall on this scale?

Also promtheans don't have too many powers, but they can't die. Ever.

Gnaeus
2010-06-08, 01:14 PM
Changelings can be really ridiculous if you let them drag things/people/<fill-in-supernatural-x-here> into the Deep Dreaming or if they have high levels of the movement powers.

Deadmeat has a lot more experience with Changeling than I do, but his account rings true with all the stories I heard from a large group of friends who played. I do not believe that anything he says is overstated.


Where do wraiths fall on this scale?


Wraiths tend to either do very well (if optimized to hurt things in the real world and facing opponents who can't hurt wraiths) or very badly (if facing something with one of the game's many necromancy powers). It all depends if the enemy has a wraithkiller.

NotScaryBats
2010-06-08, 01:36 PM
In my experience, at starting levels, a werecreature can kill anything. That is, they can deal and receive aggravated damage innately, and regenerate lethal and below, and can take multiple actions. A werewolf with 1,1,1 as physical stats will still do 7 dice of aggravated damage with a claw and soak 4 dice of aggravated damage, while being able to act three times a round.
No other starter character can do these things nearly as well.
Of course, as they grow in power they change, but for starting characters, Werecreatures trump everything.

Wabbajack
2010-06-08, 04:13 PM
Wait... oWoD... Prometheans... Am I missing something or did some people here make a mistake?