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Tyger
2010-06-07, 10:27 AM
From the SRD:
You also gain the type of the new form in place of your own.

That text is from the spell Shapechange. The question that arises is if you change your shape and type via the spell, and you have a template that requires a certain type or subtype to exist, do you lose access to that template whilst shapechanged? I believe so, but wanted some of the rules geniuses (geni?) here to chime in.

In particular:
1) A lich with spell stitching changes into a dragon. Only corporeal undead can be spell stitched, and while a dragon he is not a legal spell stitched target, so would lose his spell stitching while not undead. They would return if / when returns to undead type.

2) A tainted scholar with the Evil subtype turns into a dragon. He loses the evil type (or does he, as its a sub-type and not a type??) so suddenly his taint effects him! This one is particularly problematic as a Tainted Scholar (Evil) could have enough Taint to instantly kill anyone not immune.

Thoughts?

And yes, its a high powered game. Which is why I keep having so many darned questions, as these are issues our group has never had to deal with, as we usually fizzle out around level 12. Our first foray into a 20th level game is proving challenging, and we haven't even finished making the characters yet! :smallbiggrin:

Ingus
2010-06-07, 10:48 AM
RAW, if you lose the prerequisite, you lose the subsequent abilities.
So, changing type and subtype means you lose all the abilities having type and/or subtype as prereq (as per Polymorph too).

You can houserule-in that this doesn't happen, but this is the main drawback of poly and shapechange

Curmudgeon
2010-06-07, 10:55 AM
You're right on the first point. Regarding the second item, Shapechange refers to Polymorph.
The subject’s creature type and subtype (if any) change to match the new form. I believe you haven't actually thought this through all the way, though. Shapechange refers to Polymorph, which in turn refers to Alter Self, which includes this line:
You cannot take the form of any creature with a template, even if that template doesn’t change the creature type or subtype. So if you start out with a template, at a minimum you can't assume your own form using the spell. You can't even dismiss it to assume your own form; instead you have to wait for the spell to expire. But that's not the worst of it, because Alter Self also has this line:
You can change into a member of your own kind or even into yourself. The combination of "cannot take the form of any creature with a template" and "can change into a member of your own kind or even into yourself", to my mind, forbids use of Alter Self, Polymorph, or Shapechange by any creature with any sort of template.

Tyger
2010-06-07, 11:26 AM
You're right on the first point. Regarding the second item, Shapechange refers to Polymorph. I believe you haven't actually thought this through all the way, though. Shapechange refers to Polymorph, which in turn refers to Alter Self, which includes this line: So if you start out with a template, at a minimum you can't assume your own form using the spell. You can't even dismiss it to assume your own form; instead you have to wait for the spell to expire. But that's not the worst of it, because Alter Self also has this line: The combination of "cannot take the form of any creature with a template" and "can change into a member of your own kind or even into yourself", to my mind, forbids use of Alter Self, Polymorph, or Shapechange by any creature with any sort of template.


Hmmm... going to have to disagree with you there Curmudgeon - while the logic is clear that you couldn't turn into yourself if "yourself" has/had a template on it, there is nothing in any of the text that says you can't turn out of yourself if you have a template. In other words, you can't turn into anything with a template (agreed) but a templated creature would certainly be free to polymorph/alter self/shapechange into non-templated critters.

I see your logic, but exclusion of result (not into a templated critter) does not include exclusion of source (being templated in the first place). There is nothing in the texts which states that creatures with templates can not use the line of spells.

EDIT: I can see one application of what you are suggesting though. If the caster has a template, they would not be able to return to their own form without either dismissing the spell or letting the duration run out. Which is interesting, particularly in the case of the Spell Stitched Necromancer. Nice.

Chen
2010-06-07, 11:39 AM
You can't even dismiss it to assume your own form; instead you have to wait for the spell to expire.

Why would you not be able to dismiss the spell?

Curmudgeon
2010-06-07, 12:14 PM
Why would you not be able to dismiss the spell?
Because that would be actively using the spell to take the form of a creature with a template, which the spell description forbids.

2xMachina
2010-06-07, 12:17 PM
It is really USING the spell, or stop using it?

If I stop drinking from a cup, I'm not using the cup to NOT drink right?

Curmudgeon
2010-06-07, 12:20 PM
If I stop drinking from a cup, I'm not using the cup to NOT drink right?
Dismissing a spell is more like crushing the cup so you can't drink from it in the future. That's active, not passive.

Tyger
2010-06-07, 12:20 PM
Yeah, I am going to have to agree with Chen and 2xMachina here... dismissing a spell is not the same thing as using the spell to achieve something. That interpretation seems like a pretty big stretch of rules, and a complete stretch of anything resembling logic. Sorry Curmudgeon, I usually get a lot out of your posts, but that's beyond the pale there. :smallwink:

Curmudgeon
2010-06-07, 12:42 PM
... dismissing a spell is not the same thing as using the spell to achieve something.
According to the rules, dismissing is a modified form of spellcasting.
(D) Dismissible

If the Duration line ends with "(D)," you can dismiss the spell at will. You must be within range of the spell’s effect and must speak words of dismissal, which are usually a modified form of the spell’s verbal component. If the spell has no verbal component, you can dismiss the effect with a gesture. Dismissing a spell is a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. If you can't cast such a spell to achieve the form of a templated creature, I don't think you can go through a modified form of the spellcasting to assume a templated creature's form (you own), either.

Tyger
2010-06-07, 01:20 PM
According to the rules, dismissing is a modified form of spellcasting. If you can't cast such a spell to achieve the form of a templated creature, I don't think you can go through a modified form of the spellcasting to assume a templated creature's form (you own), either.

Can you point out the sentence which says that dismissing a spell is "a modified form of spellcasting"? I don't see it. Dropping a sword isn't a "modified" form of attack, not breathing isn't a "modified form" of breath weapon. Does stopping playing music count toward a bard's daily bardic music?

All are actions which would require some form of "action", be it a free, standard or move - just like dismissing a spell. Yet none of those are modified forms of the related actions.

Can you dismiss a spell in an Anti-Magic Field? The answer is, unless you can provide something to the contrary, is "yes"... which you certainly could not do if it was a magical effect.

EDITED: For clarification.