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aeauseth
2010-06-07, 04:05 PM
I am trying to maximize the number of Turns available for divine metamagic. I ran across "Destroy Undead" as an alternate class feat in "Expedition to Castle Ravenloft". It basiclly replaces the Turn Undead class ability.

Later I plan to take a level of "Sacred Exorcist" which grants "Turn Undead".

So here is my question. It appears by RAW that you get two seperate turning pools. One for "Destroy Undead" and one for "Turn Undead".

I'm looking for comments both FOR and AGAINST such a ruling so our group can decide on this.

My uninspired argument AGAINST is that the "Turn Undead" would add to the effective level of "Destory Undead" since it is your alternate class ability.

A similar trick to maximize turns is to take the "Rebuke Dragons" alternate class feat (Dragon Magic) + Sacred Exorcist.

PlzBreakMyCmpAn
2010-06-08, 12:03 AM
Welcome to the boards! Congradulations, I hold this (odd) world record. :smallcool:


I am trying to maximize the number of Turns available for divine metamagic.How min-maxed a limit do you want for this? 1 character alone can have a maximum of 12 DMMable pools. Pools are what matter because extra turning feats give 4 extra turns TO EACH pool. So after you max the pools, just pile on the feats with weapon proficiencies and DCFS them. My build stops before that (because DCFS is silly and proficiencies shouldn't count as 'feats' even though the converse happens)

Here's how the general rule works for stacking. If the class gives turn but doesn't require it (all base classes), the stacks with everything unless it has specific stacking text like most every PrC

Destroy undead should work RAI, but doesn't RAW due to a small fail in the wording. :smallfrown: Most DM's allow it, but it isn't present in my max build.

I warn you, my builds (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3084.0) aren't for the faint of heart. Search for "the max number of DMMable turns". Keep in mind that the build even works for a cohort to swap all that to your main character if you take the improved cohort feat (but it will lake the shadow adept extra feats) :smallwink:

Keld Denar
2010-06-08, 12:09 AM
DMM is one of the few Divine feats that ACTUALLY specifies Turn or Rebuke UNDEAD attempts. Most just say Turn/Rebuke attempts, which would work. Unfortunately, DMM is very precise.

EDIT: Its in the errata, not the book.

EDIT EDIT:


When you take this feat, choose a metamagic feat that you have. This feat applies only to that metamagic feat. As a free action, you can take the energy from turning or rebuking undead and use it to apply a metamagic feat to divine spells that you know.

Jarian
2010-06-08, 12:19 AM
Keld beat me to it, but PlzBreakMyCmpAn is a bit off on his assessment. Only turning or rebuking undead counts for DMM, not Rebuke plants/elementals/dragons, etc.

Destroy Undead, on the other hand, specifically works as Turn Undead for all feats, prerequisites, and so on.

Personally, as a DM, I don't mind players taking Destroy Undead and then getting Turn Undead from SE. They just understand that if it turns into an arms race via DMM Persist or similar, the DM always has bigger guns.

Oh, and the real cheese comes if you can convince you DM that Master of Radiance gives Turn Undead instead of just stacking (it's not exactly clear).

Then you get Rebuke Undead from Dread Necromancer or similar and have three turning pools to draw from. It can get pretty silly.

Edit: Rereading Rebuke Dragons, it actually seems to work as Destroy Undead. I don't know how I never noticed that before. It doesn't matter much though, since you have to exchange the same feature that you use to get Destroy Undead.

Keld Denar
2010-06-08, 12:25 AM
Keld beat me to it

Where ever you go, what ever you do, I will be right here waiting for you. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JF_6vubbyW8)

Triplerawr!

PlzBreakMyCmpAn
2010-06-08, 02:21 PM
PlzBreakMyCmpAn is a bit off on his assessment.Um. Please read what I say before telling me I am wrong. I said "each pool" which refers to what pools? Look for a bit earlier and I mention "DMMable pools" which is true. It just so happens that every DMMable pool not just specifically "turn/rebuke undead" polls get 4 turns added per pool

But wait, you say, "DMMable pools" are only turn/rebuke undead because the errata specifies! Kinda. There are a few ACF that are not that specifically and still work for extra turning. Your edit may indicate you understand this, but you never changed the part I quoted you on. Personally, I am very happy that the elemental, etc rebuke pools don't work for DMM. DMM is powerful

And for the record MoR say only that it "stacks with levels of all other classes that grant the ability to turn undead for the purpose of determining EClericL for turning". So no it doesn't grant a new pool

Another general rule is that anything that stacks with EClericL never forms a seperate pool (again each PrC spells it out for you). I have min/maxed both sides as is evident by my build that can rebuke a 200HD undead creature.

aeauseth
2010-06-10, 05:02 PM
I discussed this with my DM and things didn't go as planned. He believes that the ACF (Destroy Undead) replaces the "Turn Undead" ability. We agree on this part.

He then believes that the Sacred Exorcist would add to the effective Cleric level for the purposes of Destroy Undead. I would never get Turn Undead, but instead add my Sacred Exorcist level to the Cleric level for "whatever" turning ability I had. I conceded that this is actually a reasonable position to take, although not quite RAW.

So I tried to find some clear details on how Alternative Class Features were handled, and possibily some similar examples. So I tried to find an ACF for a Monk trading a Class Ability such as stunning fist, then getting it back thru a prestiege class. I couldn't find one. So I scoured all my books to find any example of an ACF removing a class ability, then a prestiege class giving it back. The only example I found was "Turn and Rebuke Undead".

Are there any clear WoTC sources that detail how ACF work? Can anyone think of another example where an ACF's lost ability is gained thru a prestiege class?

Keld Denar
2010-06-10, 05:17 PM
Not from a PrC, but a wizard or sorcerer can trade his familiar away for something shiney, and then spend a feat to get their familiar back.

A monk CAN trade away Stunning Fist, its just a bonus feat. He can later take the feat Stunning Fist, but he would have to have all of the prereqs for it at that time.

There are things you can trade away for Uncanny Dodge, which you can later pick up for other things. Barbarians, for example, can trade away Uncanny Dodge for the Improved Trip feat using the Wolf Totem ACF in Unearthed Arcana. If that barbarian later picks up 4 levels of rogue, he'd gain Uncanny Dodge again.

Same thing with the various Evasions and Complete Mage's Spell Reflection ACF.

I'm probably not helping, but these are some ideas.

aeauseth
2010-06-10, 06:01 PM
OK another problem with double dipping with divine turns.

A Cleric 1 / Paladin 4 with ACF of "Rebuke Dragons". Does this character Rebuke Dragons as a 1st level Cleric and Turn Undead as a 1st level Cleric (Paladin -3), or just Rebuke Dragons as a 2nd level Cleric?

nargbop
2010-06-10, 06:41 PM
Radiant Servant of Pelor grants many uses of Greater Turning a day, which destroys undead.

Keld Denar
2010-06-10, 07:24 PM
Does this character Rebuke Dragons as a 1st level Cleric and Turn Undead as a 1st level Cleric (Paladin -3)

This. 2 different abilities, 2 different sources. Just like a cleric with the fire domain can rebuke fire creatures and turn water creatures. If that cleric took levels in paladin to gain the turn undead feature, his paladin levels would not stack to rebuke fire creatures, only vs undead.

So a cleric1/pally4 with the fire domain would turn undead as a cleric2, and water creatures as a cleric 1, for example.

Unfortunately, you can't use Rebuke Dragons to power DMM, per the errata. You can't use Destroy undead to power DMM, per the errata. You can't use Rebuke Fire creatures to power DMM, per the errata. You can only use Turn or Rebuke Undead attempts.

Jarian
2010-06-10, 08:31 PM
You can't use Destroy undead to power DMM, per the errata.

Not true, actually.

Destroy Undead specifically counts as Turn Undead for the purpose of qualifying for, and activating, Divine feats.

So does Rebuke Dragons.