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awa
2010-06-07, 06:38 PM
Now my though on planner binding in a vacuum it can break the world instantly the first wizard who gets goes through the infinite combo power up but my though is, logical if these smarter then human creatures know about these potential exploits shouldn't wouldn't they put protections in place for them selves.

Now in my mind efreet are obvious, your lawful evil right and live in a community (city of brass) so you get some of your buddies and make a mutual protection pact some one wants you to be their slave forever or make a magical clone of your self you say no (insane circumstance bonuses) and when they try and torture you into doing it your buddies go grab one of their slaves and start forcing him (becuase they need someone else to make the wish) to wish for bad things to happen to you and genies live a long time odds are one of them is much more powerful then you if you spend to much effort pissing off efreet by repeatedly trying to get free wishes he might get angry at you for harassing his subjects.

I suppose in the grand scheme of things this doesn't mean any thing just the tippy verse kind of bugs me pepole keep saying its the logical outcome of any dnd world but in my mind the logical world has no wizards of high enough level to pull (and get away with that kind of thing) becuase some ancient immortal planner creature swats them like a fly BEFORE they get that strong.

Prodan
2010-06-07, 06:42 PM
Now in my mind efreet are obvious, your lawful evil right and live in a community (city of brass) so you get some of your buddies and make a mutual protection pact some one wants you to be their slave forever or make a magical clone of your self you say no (insane circumstance bonuses) and when they try and torture you into doing it your buddies go grab one of their slaves and start forcing him (becuase they need someone else to make the wish) to wish for bad things to happen to you and genies live a long time odds are one of them is much more powerful then you if you spend to much effort pissing off efreet by repeatedly trying to get free wishes he might get angry at you for harassing his subjects.
1. Infinity is a large number.
2. Even wish has limits on what it can do reliably. Inflicting massive suffering across plains... does any spell do that? I guess a souped up bestow curse, but that does allow for a save.

Starbuck_II
2010-06-07, 06:46 PM
Now my though on planner binding in a vacuum it can break the world instantly the first wizard who gets goes through the infinite combo power up, but my thought is: logical if these smarter then human creatures know about these potential exploits shouldn't wouldn't they put protections in place for them selves.

Now in my mind efreet are obvious, your lawful evil right and live in a community (city of brass).
So you get some of your buddies to make a mutual protection pact. When someone wants you to be their slave forever (or make a magical clone of yourself) you say no (insane circumstance bonuses). And when they try and torture you into doing it, your buddies go grab one of their slaves and start forcing him (becuase they need someone else to make the wish) to wish for bad things to happen to you.

Fixed some spell and grammar errors that made paragraph almost unreadable.

Now, how does your buddy know someone is torturing/enslaving you.
Second, how can he wish bad for you if he doesn't know who you are (a continuation of first problem).
You might have realized none of them have scry as a power.

Third, Only non-efreeti can make wishes. So if he attempts make his slave hurt you, he becomes a slave himself to his slave.


Now genies live a long time odds are one of them is much more powerful then you.

Untrue, Efreeti have LA so they are growing in power slower than a PC.

Lycanthromancer
2010-06-07, 07:00 PM
Efreet may be more intelligent than a commoner, but they're not smarter than a wizard. Wizards are amongst the most intelligent beings in the multiverse after mid-levels (above even gods), and have capabilities that make all but the stupidest and most overconfident creatures shudder in fear.

Circumstance bonus of +6 or not, there's no way that an intelligent (ie, any) wizard could possibly lose in a test of wills with an efreeti, since he will have prepared for actually having one.

Also, if offering a deal in the efreeti's favor doesn't work (grant 2 wishes for me in good faith and I'll make the last one on your behalf), then dominate the hell out of it using all the save-or-screw and save-and-still-screw at your disposal, buff yourself with whatever you feel is enough everything you can think of, then keep it as your pet forever.

Anyone with a reasonable Wisdom and a super-high Intelligence that makes it to those levels is going to be wary enough to take as many precautions as they can, stacking the deck so far in their favor that losing is literally not an option.

Tyrandar
2010-06-07, 07:04 PM
A guide to planner binding (http://www.abcoffice.com/how-to-coil-bind.htm) :smalltongue:

Couldn't help myself.

Jack_Simth
2010-06-07, 07:07 PM
1. Infinity is a large number.
2. Even wish has limits on what it can do reliably. Inflicting massive suffering across plains... does any spell do that? I guess a souped up bestow curse, but that does allow for a save.
It doesn't have to do it reliably if it can be spammed... and one of the safe clauses of Wish is "Transport Travelers", which doesn't actually specify they have to be anywhere near the person the Wish is about. So yes, while it permits both Save (if you're unwilling ... oh yes, and it specifies "an unwilling subject" - there's a pesky clause about unconscious characters, and you have to sleep sometime) and SR (which most PC's don't have). How would you like to, say, wake up in an Antimagic cell, when you're hit by a reach weapon performing a CdG on your sleeping self?


Fixed some spell and grammar errors that made paragraph almost unreadable.

Now, how does your buddy know someone is torturing/enslaving you.

This is actually a relatively simple matter: Scheduled check-ins.


Second, how can he wish bad for you if he doesn't know who you are (a continuation of first problem).

The Transport Travelers clause of Wish doesn't specify you have to actually know the person, although you do need some way of identifying him. "Anyone who has used one of the following 27 effects on so-and-so" is technically in the safe list.


You might have realized none of them have scry as a power.

Immaterial - see above.


Third, Only non-efreeti can make wishes. So if he attempts make his slave hurt you, he becomes a slave himself to his slave.

Doesn't matter. See, your standard Efreeti (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/genie.htm#efreeti) has a +17 Intimidate modifier, which makes a target "Friendly" - and they share a plane with Fire Memphits (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/mephit.htm#fireMephit), who are *really* easy for an Efreeti to Intimidate (Fire Memphits, being small, give the Large Efreeti a +8 bonus on the Intimidate check... so it's an opposed roll of +25 (Efreeti) vs. about a +3 or +6 on the part of the Fire Memphit - I'm not totally clear on the exact mechanics). So you've got a "Friendly" puppet casting Wishes for you. No real chance of slavery there, ESPECIALLY when it's known that this is happening as a repercussion against slavery. He can even pay the memphit - "One wish for a golden statue for yourself, the other two as I dictate...."

Oh yes, and nothing in the spell-like description of the 1/day 3 wishes specifies that the Efreeti *must* grant a given Wish.


Untrue, Efreeti have LA so they are growing in power slower than a PC.Doesn't matter. See, the Efreeti have already been around a very, very long time. They may grow in power more slowly, but they start higher up.

Oh yes, and the description of Efreeti specifies that they have a racial hatred of servitude... and they're LAWFUL evil, so setting up this kind of thing is quite in line with the stock description.


Efreet may be more intelligent than a commoner, but they're not smarter than a wizard. Wizards are amongst the most intelligent beings in the multiverse after mid-levels (above even gods), and have capabilities that make all but the stupidest and most overconfident creatures shudder in fear.

Circumstance bonus of +6 or not, there's no way that an intelligent (ie, any) wizard could possibly lose in a test of wills with an efreeti, since he will have prepared for actually having one.

Also, if offering a deal in the efreeti's favor doesn't work (grant 2 wishes for me in good faith and I'll make the last one on your behalf), then dominate the hell out of it using all the save-or-screw and save-and-still-screw at your disposal, buff yourself with whatever you feel is enough everything you can think of, then keep it as your pet forever.

Anyone with a reasonable Wisdom and a super-high Intelligence that makes it to those levels is going to be wary enough to take as many precautions as they can, stacking the deck so far in their favor that losing is literally not an option.
You have a problem: a Wish to move you cares not about what plane you're on, and whether or not you're Mind Blanked (it's not gathering information about you, it's just arbitrarily moving you). And the one you're dealing with isn't necessarily the one that will take revenge.

The Glyphstone
2010-06-07, 07:07 PM
A guide to planner binding (http://www.abcoffice.com/how-to-coil-bind.htm) :smalltongue:

Couldn't help myself.

That was mean. I still laughed.

Prodan
2010-06-07, 07:09 PM
So yes, while it permits both Save (if you're unwilling ... oh yes, and it specifies "an unwilling subject" - there's a pesky clause about unconscious characters, and you have to sleep sometime)
No I do not.

Jack_Simth
2010-06-07, 07:10 PM
No I do not.
Okay. Then you have to roll a series of 1's on your will saves eventually.

Prodan
2010-06-07, 07:11 PM
Okay. Then you have to roll a series of 1's on your will saves eventually.

Alternatively, Dimension Lock myself and send a sending telling them to suck it.

Oslecamo
2010-06-07, 07:12 PM
Anyone with a reasonable Wisdom and a super-high Intelligence that makes it to those levels is going to be wary enough to take as many precautions as they can, stacking the deck so far in their favor that losing is literally not an option.

Muhahaha I've got over 9000 buffs and spells ready! How can you refuse my will puny efreeti?

I've already granted my wishes this morning.

...Crap...

Hey, wizard, you wasting more time with that? We got a BBEG to stop and stuff in case you've forgoten!

Jack_Simth
2010-06-07, 07:13 PM
Alternatively, Dimension Lock myself and send a sending telling them to suck it.
You may want to re-read the transport traveler's clause on wish. It includes that nifty phrase "regardless of local conditions", and even if that doesn't matter, you've got a problem: You can never planar travel again.


Muhahaha I've got over 9000 buffs and spells ready! How can you refuse my will puny efreeti?

I've already granted my wishes this morning.

...Crap...

Hey, wizard, you wasting more time with that? We got a BBEG to stop and stuff in case you've forgoten!

If *that* was the only problem, the solution is simple: Kill Efreeti, take sample, make Simulacrum at convenient time, have the critter that is explicitly under your absolute control grant you the wishes another day.

Prodan
2010-06-07, 07:15 PM
You may want to re-read the transport traveler's clause on wish.

"Transport travelers. A wish can lift one creature per caster level from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions."

The "local conditions" clause refers to placing people, not snatching them away.

Bazinga.

Jack_Simth
2010-06-07, 07:17 PM
You may want to re-read the transport traveler's clause on wish. I severely doubt that magical effects are "local conditions".In what sense is a spell with a radius of 20 feet not a local condition?

You may want to re-read the transport traveler's clause on wish.

"Transport travelers. A wish can lift one creature per caster level from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions."

The "local conditions" clause refers to placing people, not snatching them away.

Bazinga.My you do a lot of editing. Okay. So the Efreeti snatches away some overly-high CR critter and plops that right on top of you.

Oh yes, and the Efreeti are handled by the DM, who is also the judge of such things as "effects more powerful than these". And in character, it's the Efreeti's granting the Wish, who may then get to decide what form the twisting takes. And, given that they have three Wishes as a daily effect, they probably have a *lot* of experience with Wish wording.

Prodan
2010-06-07, 07:18 PM
"Transport travelers. A wish can lift one creature per caster level from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions."

The "local conditions" clause refers to placing people, not snatching them away.

Bazinga.

Also, the wizard is only prevented from planar travel ever again if the enemy is continually Wishing at him for eternity. You will, of course, say that is incredibly likely. I would like to preemptively disagree.

olentu
2010-06-07, 07:20 PM
Muhahaha I've got over 9000 buffs and spells ready! How can you refuse my will puny efreeti?

I've already granted my wishes this morning.

...Crap...

Hey, wizard, you wasting more time with that? We got a BBEG to stop and stuff in case you've forgoten!

Why not just go off and fight the BBEG for a while and get those wishes on the next day.

The Glyphstone
2010-06-07, 07:20 PM
"Transport travelers. A wish can lift one creature per caster level from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions."

The "local conditions" clause refers to placing people, not snatching them away.

Bazinga.

I don't see any commas there. Without sentence structuring, "regardless of local conditions' can apply to the origin point or destination, or both, even though it's at the end of the sentence. English is weird like that, so your 'bazinga' is a dud here.

Prodan
2010-06-07, 07:21 PM
I don't see any commas there. Without sentence structuring, "regardless of local conditions' can apply to the origin point or destination, or both, even though it's at the end of the sentence. English is weird like that, so your 'bazinga' is a dud here.
I believe my interpretation is valid for purely selfish and egotistical reasons.

Lycanthromancer
2010-06-07, 07:21 PM
Muhahaha I've got over 9000 buffs and spells ready! How can you refuse my will puny efreeti?

I've already granted my wishes this morning.

"Fine. I'll spend the rest of today torturing you, wait until tomorrow, and rebuff. Enjoy the longest 24 hours of your existence, fool."Fixed that for you.

Prodan
2010-06-07, 07:23 PM
Incidentally, Jack Smith, I appreciate the fact that you offer actual arguments.

Jack_Simth
2010-06-07, 07:24 PM
Also, the wizard is only prevented from planar travel ever again if the enemy is continually Wishing at him for eternity. You will, of course, say that is incredibly likely. I would like to preemptively disagree.It doesn't need to be eternal. Just a random schedule for a very long duration. See, with the description, it's in the efreeti's best interests to keep this kind of thing from happening to Efreeti. One of the simplest ways to do that is to make certain that those who try it get shafted. There's actually very good reason for the Efreeti to keep at it for a very long time.

Additionally, even if you're personally immune, you still have a problem: The Efreeti simply needs to locate a suitable opponent, and hire him, paying in Wishes.

Oh yes, and what The_Glyphstone said.


Incidentally, Jack Smith, I appreciate the fact that you offer actual arguments.Eh, it's no fun (for me) to just rant at people.

Koury
2010-06-07, 07:28 PM
It doesn't need to be eternal. Just a random schedule for a very long duration. See, with the description, it's in the efreeti's best interests to keep this kind of thing from happening to Efreeti. One of the simplest ways to do that is to make certain that those who try it get shafted. There's actually very good reason for the Efreeti to keep at it for a very long time.

Additionally, even if you're personally immune, you still have a problem: The Efreeti simply needs to locate a suitable opponent, and hire him, paying in Wishes.

Oh yes, and what The_Glyphstone said.

Yes, all that.

Or, and this is what I'd prefer, the DM just says "No, let's keep that level of stuff out of this game." If you don't like it, say so and we move on.

Prodan
2010-06-07, 07:28 PM
It doesn't need to be eternal. Just a random schedule for a very long duration.
I concede the point, since there is absolutely no way for the wizard to find out when future events will occur and plan for them in advance.


Additionally, even if you're personally immune, you still have a problem: The Efreeti simply needs to locate a suitable opponent, and hire him, paying in Wishes.
Unfortunately, the opponent will be CR appropriate and stand a good chance of providing XP and loot for the wizard.



Oh yes, and what The_Glyphstone said.
The clause could apply to either part of that sentence, you say? Then it's not really a clear cut victory for your interpretation.

Me? I believe it makes more sense as putting the target down at a location regardless of local conditions that would otherwise prevent it.

The Glyphstone
2010-06-07, 07:29 PM
SPOOOOOOOOOOOOON!!!

This was funnier.:smallsmile:

awa
2010-06-07, 07:32 PM
a basic one has an int of 12 nothings stopping them from having class levels or above average int. Keep in mind by intimidating a commoner into granting them wishes they can have a massive number of self buffs and magic items. Any abuse a wizard could come up with the genie can as well your average genie commoner might not be as smart as the wizards but hes alot older and can copy the genie wizard who's rolled a natural 18 int wished for magic items with free wish's and gave himself inherent bonuses can the wizard math that?

All this of course goes back to my core premise that any thing the wizard thinks up the genies have already thought up and planed a counter for.

with wish abuse they have a huge spell lists and magic item selection. A magic item or spell that alerts you that someone has grabbed one of your buddies shouldn't be tough. with centuries of accumulating three magic items a day the genie they likely have quite a stash.

Prodan
2010-06-07, 07:34 PM
can the wizard math that?
Wizards are probably better at mathematics, yes.

AstralFire
2010-06-07, 07:36 PM
I'm still snickering at planner binding. >_>

olentu
2010-06-07, 07:37 PM
a basic one has an int of 12 nothings stopping them from having class levels or above average int. Keep in mind by intimidating a commoner into granting them wishes they can have a massive number of self buffs and magic items. Any abuse a wizard could come up with the genie can as well your average genie commoner might not be as smart as the wizards but hes alot older and can copy the genie wizard who's rolled a natural 18 int wished for magic items with free wish's and gave himself inherent bonuses can the wizard math that?

All this of course goes back to my core premise that any thing the wizard thinks up the genies have already thought up and planed a counter for.

with wish abuse they have a huge spell lists and magic item selection. A magic item or spell that alerts you that someone has grabbed one of your buddies shouldn't be tough. with centuries of accumulating three magic items a day the genie they likely have quite a stash.

Would this not bring up the problem of why a cabal of effreti wizards are not running everything.

Jack_Simth
2010-06-07, 07:38 PM
Oh, if only there was a way to determine when it would happen. Some sort of spell that could auger or divine the future, for instance. Pity the wizard has no such tricks. I concede the point.

Hmm? Oh, if fortune-telling becomes a problem, the Efreeti simply need to arrange for Mind Blanks (duplicated by Wishes) to be part of the procedure. They block Divinations.

Unfortunately, the opponent will be CR appropriate and stand a good chance of providing XP and loot for the wizard.Potentially. But then, you've got a hidden problem with trusting to that:
The DM metagames by definition, and one of his responsibilities is to make certain that something close to game balance is maintained. And it's the DM that selects the opponent. It is in his interests to prevent Wish abuse, and one of the simpler means to handle it (in-game methods, if you're insisting he isn't simply arranging for a gentleman's agreement to not abuse such things) is to hit you with something that will severely neuter your character to bring you back in-line. Which, you know, generally means an over-powered opponent with a highly specific target, who's goal isn't so much "destroy him" as it is "Make him suffer".

The clause could apply to either part of that sentence, you say? Then it's not a clear cut case, is it?Lucky for me, it's the DM who gets to interpret the rules where there's ambiguity, and part of the DM's job is maintaining relative game balance. If you're using Efreeti-abuse to break the game, he's totally justified in letting the Efreeti snatch you up this way out of a Cheater of Mystria's Dimensional Locked Antimagic Field under that slightly-ambiguous clause.

Would this not bring up the problem of why a cabal of effreti wizards are not running everything.
"Who says they aren't" makes for a great plot-hook, doesn't it?

Prodan
2010-06-07, 07:40 PM
Hmm? Oh, if fortune-telling becomes a problem, the Efreeti simply need to arrange for Mind Blanks (duplicated by Wishes) to be part of the procedure. They block Divinations.
"Outer Planes Deity, when am I going to be the victim of another attack?"


Potentially. But then, you've got a hidden problem with trusting to that:
The DM metagames by definition, and one of his responsibilities is to make certain that something close to game balance is maintained. And it's the DM that selects the opponent. It is in his interests to prevent Wish abuse, and one of the simpler means to handle it (in-game methods, if you're insisting he isn't simply arranging for a gentleman's agreement to not abuse such things) is to hit you with something that will severely neuter your character to bring you back in-line. Which, you know, generally means an over-powered opponent with a highly specific target, who's goal isn't so much "destroy him" as it is "Make him suffer". Lucky for me, it's the DM who gets to interpret the rules where there's ambiguity, and part of the DM's job is maintaining relative game balance. If you're using Efreeti-abuse to break the game, he's totally justified in letting the Efreeti snatch you up this way out of a Cheater of Mystria's Dimensional Locked Antimagic Field under that slightly-ambiguous clause.Two wrongs do not equal a right. Or a chicken, for that matter.

Starbuck_II
2010-06-07, 07:40 PM
Potentially. But then, you've got a hidden problem with trusting to that:
The DM metagames by definition, and one of his responsibilities is to make certain that something close to game balance is maintained. And it's the DM that selects the opponent. It is in his interests to prevent Wish abuse, and one of the simpler means to handle it (in-game methods, if you're insisting he isn't simply arranging for a gentleman's agreement to not abuse such things) is to hit you with something that will severely neuter your character to bring you back in-line. Which, you know, generally means an over-powered opponent with a highly specific target, who's goal isn't so much "destroy him" as it is "Make him suffer".


Depends if a DM is a referee (like DMG recommends) instead of an Antagonist.

Lycanthromancer
2010-06-07, 07:55 PM
Two wrongs do not equal a right. Or a chicken, for that matter.No, but do two Wongs make a Wright?

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g111/Lycanthromancer/motivator370434.jpg

jiriku
2010-06-07, 07:58 PM
First of all, I'd agree with the original premise of the OP. Efreeti are dangerous, and not to be trusted.

That's why my wizards summon djinni nobles. Those darn morals and ethics of theirs, and their basically decent nature, make them much less cunning than a devious bastard like myself.

Also, I'd agree with the OP's secondary premise, that ultimately the DM is the arbiter of the game, and he can create whatever challenges or difficulties seem reasonable to him. Thus it follows, you can't have anything in the game unless you can convince the DM that it makes sense in the game for you to have it.

With my past two wizards and my past two DMs, my wishes have always been:

1. "I wish for [something I want]."
2. "I wish for [something else I want]."
3. "I wish that upon release from this binding, you'd forget I ever called you and refuse to believe any evidence to the contrary."

In both cases, the DMs involved blinked in astonishment, stared at me with a bemused expression for a minute or two, then said, "OK, well, I can't argue with that."

I'll mention that I used the wishes sparingly and for basic purposes, the better to stay off my DM's "I must smite him no matter what" radar.

Good times.

PId6
2010-06-07, 08:00 PM
1. "I wish for [something I want]."
2. "I wish for another Candle of Invocation.
3. "I wish that upon release from this binding, you'd forget I ever called you and refuse to believe any evidence to the contrary."
Now it's complete.

Gametime
2010-06-07, 08:00 PM
No, but do two Wongs make a Wright?



facepalm.jpeg

awa
2010-06-07, 08:01 PM
the core of my argument is not about a real game but against the assumption that by the rules wizards would rule every thing.

And who says the efreet efreet need to teleport you they have a lot of other options becuase wish has so many potential effects an centuries to think about it theirs not many problems you couldn't overcome.

And the genies can of course scry for when the wizards going to try and enslave them and nip it in the bud.

If every wizards whose a jerk to efreet can crushed by a half dozen epic efreet and their allies loaded with magic items and buffs hit the wizard all at once wiping him out and publicly displaying his mangled corpse look what happens when you mess with us.

Prodan
2010-06-07, 08:03 PM
And who says the efreet efreet need to teleport you they have a lot of other options becuase wish has so many potential effects
Which are listed and defined, incidentally.


And the genies can of course scry for when the wizards going to try and enslave them and nip it in the bud.
Quiz time: What spells block scrying?


If every wizards whose a jerk to efreet can crushed by a half dozen epic efreet and their allies loaded with magic items and buffs hit the wizard all at once wiping him out and publicly displaying his mangled corpse look what happens when you mess with us.
So calling an efreet and asking for some wishes is "being a jerk"?

awa
2010-06-07, 08:08 PM
bargaining is fine, locking them in a permanent prison or wishing for infinite wishes is less okay.
edit
use divination will i be enslaved this year? find the day the plane the location don't scry on the wizard in question so the mind blank doesn't matter.

Jack_Simth
2010-06-07, 08:28 PM
"Outer Planes Deity, when am I going to be the victim of another attack?"
Then you've got a different set of problems:
1) "they resent such contact" - and you're needing to do this repeatedly to a Greater Diety. Sign this plan up for success!.
2) Per the Commune spell "powerful beings of the Outer Planes are not necessarily omniscient" - AKA, the DM is well within his rights to make the accurate roll answer "I don't know". Additionally
3) Per page 5 of the Player's Handbook: "The DM may make some rolls in secret to build suspense and maintain mystery." - which is perfect for Divinations. Which means you don't know the result....
4) One-word answers. Ignoring all of the above, you're going to need to make a lot of questions. "When will the next attack be" is begging for an answer of "eventually". You've got one expensive defense.

Wish is open-ended, the Efreeti can have an arbitrary number of them, and you've got a relatively finite number of Wishes at your disposal.


Two wrongs do not equal a right. Or a chicken, for that matter.
No. But arranging to rectify an abuse is not precisely a wrong, now is it?

Depends if a DM is a referee (like DMG recommends) instead of an Antagonist.Part of the DM's job is challenging the players. If a player is abusing things to the point that there is no challenge, part of the DM's job is to rectify that.

Which are listed and defined, incidentally.
Other than that pesky "Effects that are stronger than these" clause, with that pesky "may" clause on the twisting. Oh yes, and the arbiter of the game is the one deciding when a wish is twisted, when it isn't, and what exact wording was used on the Efreeti's Wish.

Quiz time: What spells block scrying?
Quite a few, most of them Wizardly. Immaterial, though.
So calling an efreet and asking for some wishes is "being a jerk"?Once? Probably not from the DM's perspective. But... in what manner are you asking? If you're using Planar Binding, then you are:

1) Ripping an intelligent being out of it's home.
2) Trapping it.
3) Effectively ordering it to do something for you as a condition of it's release ... which it becomes magically bound to.

If you are using Gate, then you are:
1) Ripping an intelligent being out of it's home.
2) Magically compelling it to do what you want.

Now, if you don't use it that way, you've got some options - but you'll need to, you know, actually pay for services rendered. Which kinda defeats the purpose.


3. "I wish that upon release from this binding, you'd forget I ever called you and refuse to believe any evidence to the contrary."
Per Lesser Planar Binding (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/planarBindingLesser.htm): "Impossible demands or unreasonable commands are never agreed to. " Mind controlling ones self could quite easily fall under that clause.


use divination will i be enslaved this year? find the day the plane the location don't scry on the wizard in question so the mind blank doesn't matter.
Oooh... and as the result of the Craft Contingent Spell feat is treated much like a magic item... so Efreeti could arrange for a few to be Wished onto them... and these could simply arrange to be instantly whisked back to a chosen location (using the transport traveler's clause of Wish), and then immediately Disjoined, whenever they're forced into service.

So you Planar Bind one, and it vanishes instantly. You Gate one in, and it vanishes instantly. A bit later, the Efreeti starts thinking about what trigger the Contingent Spell.

Starbuck_II
2010-06-07, 08:35 PM
You Gate one in, and it vanishes instantly. A bit later, the Efreeti starts thinking about what trigger the Contingent Spell.


No, Gate makes it follow your every command. Unless it is a unique individual like a God.

So, you gate one in and it stays there and follows your every command for 1 rd/lv.

Koury
2010-06-07, 08:48 PM
So, you gate one in and it stays there and follows your every command for 1 rd/lv.

Or the duration of your current battle, whichever is longer.

Prodan
2010-06-07, 08:48 PM
Then you've got a different set of problems:
1) "they resent such contact" - and you're needing to do this repeatedly to a Greater Diety. Sign this plan up for success!.
And the worse they can do is decrease your mental abilities. If you fail a Int check that you can easily make.

Really, you're being quite disingenuous here. I like that in a man. Bonus points for style.


2) Per the Commune spell "powerful beings of the Outer Planes are not necessarily omniscient" - AKA, the DM is well within his rights to make the accurate roll answer "I don't know". Additionally
3) Per page 5 of the Player's Handbook: "The DM may make some rolls in secret to build suspense and maintain mystery." - which is perfect for Divinations. Which means you don't know the result....
Stop, you had me at soup.

Anyways, if you're arguing about DM fiat, then yes. But I don't believe the OP was talking about fiat... unless I misremember?


4) One-word answers. Ignoring all of the above, you're going to need to make a lot of questions. "When will the next attack be" is begging for an answer of "eventually". You've got one expensive defense.
You do realize I was using that sentence as an example of how Mind Blank'd people's plans can still be revealed, right?


Wish is open-ended, the Efreeti can have an arbitrary number of them, and you've got a relatively finite number of Wishes at your disposal.

Depends on how much cheese we're putting out, doesn't it?


No. But arranging to rectify an abuse is not precisely a wrong, now is it?
Part of the DM's job is challenging the players. If a player is abusing things to the point that there is no challenge, part of the DM's job is to rectify that.
By talking out of the game to prevent things from occurring. Rational discussion is in all cases preferable over passive aggressive behavior.


Other than that pesky "Effects that are stronger than these" clause, with that pesky "may" clause on the twisting. Oh yes, and the arbiter of the game is the one deciding when a wish is twisted, when it isn't, and what exact wording was used on the Efreeti's Wish.
If you're arguing that the DM can do whatever he wants, that is correct. This really isn't what the OP wanted, which was, as far as I can tell, a rules neutral way of handling things.

In other words, I concede the point that the DM can do whatever he wants. What that point has to do with the purpose of this thread, I am less clear on.

Starbuck_II
2010-06-07, 08:50 PM
Or the duration of your current battle, whichever is longer.

Wait, who Gates Efreeti for Wishes during as battle?!

Samb
2010-06-07, 09:02 PM
What happened to the good ol' days of when outsiders couldn't be killed for real on the Prime? Nowadays you kill an outsider and it's out of your hair forever.
"You will fail your next save" and that's the end of it.

Remember Driz't and Eruutu (sp)? That demon kept coming back from the Abyss to mess with Driz, no matter how many times Driz kicked his ass.

I always homebrew this AD&D rule so players think twice about abusing this spell. You 3.x youngsters have way too good.

Koury
2010-06-07, 09:04 PM
Wait, who Gates Efreeti for Wishes during as battle?!

Touché, but it was noted for completeness. :smallsmile:

Starbuck_II
2010-06-07, 09:07 PM
What happened to the good ol' days of when outsiders couldn't be killed for real on the Prime? Nowadays you kill an outsider and it's out of your hair forever.
"You will fail your next save" and that's the end of it.

Remember Driz't and Eruutu (sp)? That demon kept coming back from the Abyss to mess with Driz, no matter how many times Driz kicked his ass.

I always homebrew this AD&D rule so players think twice about abusing this spell. You 3.x youngsters have way too good.

Now adays, we call that summoning.
Epic Summoning spell? Ritual spells in Savage Species and Incantations in Unearthed Arcana can do that probably.

Avoid calling spells if you don't want your outsiders to die forever.

It wouldn't be hard to make such a summoning Incantation.

Jack_Simth
2010-06-07, 09:22 PM
No, Gate makes it follow your every command. Unless it is a unique individual like a God.

So, you gate one in and it stays there and follows your every command for 1 rd/lv.You Gate him in to follow your commands.

The Craft Contingent Spell(Wish), quite out of the Efreeti's hands once it's created, goes off, and the Efreeti is at an arbitrary point in the multiverse, which has been prepared for whatever the Efreeti wants (Forbiddance, repeating Disjunction traps to get rid of annoying spell effects, whatever). It sits there, waiting patiently for your command for 1 round/level. Then it does whatever it feels like. Or would you argue that it also can't be killed by an outside force, as that would prevent it from following your commands?


And the worse they can do is decrease your mental abilities. If you fail a Int check that you can easily make.

Correction: That's the directly defined consequence.


Really, you're being quite disingenuous here. I like that in a man. Bonus points for style.

Stop, you had me at soup.
I appear to be missing a reference.

Anyways, if you're arguing about DM fiat, then yes. But I don't believe the OP was talking about fiat... unless I misremember?
Define fiat. Efreeti having a mutual defense pact (which the OP was talking about) is not spelled out in the Efreeti's creature description. Is it fiat for the Efreeti to set such up?

The spell description explicitly states that the entities resent the contact. Of necessity, you'll be contacting them repeatedly. Is it fiat for a powerful being to research and take long term action against the source of a recurring event which it "resents"? There's a very big difference between "Happens once" (where you might get slapped down absent-mindedly) "happens occasionally" (where you will probably get slapped down absent-mindedly) and "this same guy is bugging me every other day" (where there's going to be some thought put it in). Consider a woman who slaps an overly-crude guy who makes passes at her. The first time, he's going to be slapped. If he does it a lot, he's liable to be slapped with legal action. Your Wizard is going to be needing to make a rather lot of inquiries. Why wouldn't a Greater Diety take steps against a Wizard who's casting that spell over & over again?


You do realize I was using that sentence as an example of how Mind Blank'd people's plans can still be revealed, right?
Oh, you can do a binary search on the timeframe, or something along the lines of "will I be attacked by Efreeti during this excursion" or similar, but you're still going to have to narrow it down a lot to get much use out of it. And the frequency of the random attempts will determine how many castings you'll need, as you mostly need to get each one individually to still be able to go about your day-to-day activities.
Depends on how much cheese we're putting out, doesn't it?You're relying on Efreeti to make your cheese work. Guess what: A larger number of Efreeti can arrange for a larger volume of cheese. If you're being targeted by a single Efreeti for something you did once, that's probably no big deal. If you're abusing quite a few Efreeti in this manner, you'll have quite a lot of Efreeti on your tail, and you have a problem.

By talking out of the game to prevent things from occurring. Rational discussion is in all cases preferable over passive aggressive behavior.
Oh, yes. In fact, I've even alluded to that parenthetically a time or two. First step when a player is attempting to abuse the game mechanics is OOC discussion.

If you're arguing that the DM can do whatever he wants, that is correct. This really isn't what the OP wanted, which was, as far as I can tell, a rules neutral way of handling things.Incidentally, most of what I've been mentioning is based around NPC action, and choosing interpretations of ambiguous rules.
In other words, I concede the point that the DM can do whatever he wants. How that relates to the thread's purpose I am less clear on.Ah... so... NPC's aren't supposed to react to defend themselves, and aren't supposed to be proactive with their abilities to set up defenses?

gbprime
2010-06-07, 09:22 PM
Some of the PC's in one of my previous games hired a guild wizard to do the conga line of noble djinni. They didn't reward the djinni, and soaked about 60 wishes out of them, then erased the memory of the wizard who helped them.

Only the rest of the guild found out what happened (spying familiars...), and rather than seek payback for the memory erasure, they instead decided to crank up the conga line of wishes for themselves. And somewhere along the way, one of the djinni got loose.

It went home, got the ire up of the others that had been used this way, and came back with a posse. They then found one disgruntled guild apprentice and kept offering him wishes until he pretty much ruined the guild. The PC's intervened, and a knock-down drag-out fight occurred between the PC's and the power-levelled apprentice, his dominated guild members, and a few djinni supporters.

In the end, the PC's won and the djinni set everything right. They really only wanted to teach the people involved a lesson, but being PC's... they didn't. The wizard guild did, however, and to this day have very strict rules on use of summoning circles, and refused any services to the PC's from that point on.

Starbuck_II
2010-06-07, 09:29 PM
You Gate him in to follow your commands.

The Craft Contingent Spell(Wish), quite out of the Efreeti's hands once it's created, goes off, and the Efreeti is at an arbitrary point in the multiverse, which has been prepared for whatever the Efreeti wants (Forbiddance, repeating Disjunction traps to get rid of annoying spell effects, whatever). It sits there, waiting patiently for your command for 1 round/level. Then it does whatever it feels like. Or would you argue that it also can't be killed by an outside force, as that would prevent it from following your commands?


You have to be able to cast the spell in question to Craft Contingent spell it. You must be working for 8 hrs. Craft Contigenct spell isn't a magic item so wish can't make it.
Meaning some Efreeti just lost alot of Exp.
If you cast Disjunction, you dispel the Efreeti (Craft Contingent spell is targeted on yourself). So it is sent back (if that was what you were trying to achieve, but it spent more work for more work than you did.

Remember: contingent spell is a single-use, one-spell magical effect instilled within a specific willing creature.

Unlike Magic items, it can be permanently dispelled. So that shows it isn't a magic item, but a magical effect.

Prodan
2010-06-07, 09:29 PM
Correction: That's the directly defined consequence.
That's the only defined consequence.


I appear to be missing a reference.Define fiat. Efreeti having a mutual defense pact (which the OP was talking about) is not spelled out in the Efreeti's creature description. Is it fiat for the Efreeti to set such up?
"2) Per the Commune spell "powerful beings of the Outer Planes are not necessarily omniscient" - AKA, the DM is well within his rights to make the accurate roll answer "I don't know". Additionally
3) Per page 5 of the Player's Handbook: "The DM may make some rolls in secret to build suspense and maintain mystery." - which is perfect for Divinations. Which means you don't know the result.... "


The spell description explicitly states that the entities resent the contact. Of necessity, you'll be contacting them repeatedly. Is it fiat for a powerful being to research and take long term action against the source of a recurring event which it "resents"? There's a very big difference between "Happens once" (where you might get slapped down absent-mindedly) "happens occasionally" (where you will probably get slapped down absent-mindedly) and "this same guy is bugging me every other day" (where there's going to be some thought put it in). Consider a woman who slaps an overly-crude guy who makes passes at her. The first time, he's going to be slapped. If he does it a lot, he's liable to be slapped with legal action. Your Wizard is going to be needing to make a rather lot of inquiries.
All to the same deity, apparently.


Why wouldn't a Greater Diety take steps against a Wizard who's casting that spell over & over again? Outer Deities are busy managing Gods and the balance of the entire multiverse.


Oh, you can do a binary search on the timeframe, or something along the lines of "will I be attacked by Efreeti during this excursion" or similar, but you're still going to have to narrow it down a lot to get much use out of it. And the frequency of the random attempts will determine how many castings you'll need, as you mostly need to get each one individually to still be able to go about your day-to-day activities.
So you're saying it's possible. Thanks for the help.


You're relying on Efreeti to make your cheese work. Guess what: A larger number of Efreeti can arrange for a larger volume of cheese. If you're being targeted by a single Efreeti for something you did once, that's probably no big deal. If you're abusing quite a few Efreeti in this manner, you'll have quite a lot of Efreeti on your tail, and you have a problem.
All the infinite Efreeti in the multiverse are in on this mutual defense pact. Interesting.


Ah... so... NPC's aren't supposed to react to defend themselves, and aren't supposed to be proactive with their abilities to set up defenses?
Ah... so... there is no difference between NPC's setting up defenses and using DM fiat to make Wishes more powerful than normal come true in their favor, block knowledge from Great Deities, have Great Deities take action against diviners despite this being nowhere stated in the rules, have an infinite amount of beings in on a mutual defense pact who decide to send in uber high level hit squads to teach wizards a lesson in pain and dole out the harshness...

Again, kudos to you. I award you one Internets. You know what it's for by now.

Gametime
2010-06-07, 09:48 PM
Ah... so... there is no difference between NPC's setting up defenses and using DM fiat to make Wishes more powerful than normal come true in their favor, block knowledge from Great Deities, have Great Deities take action against diviners despite this being nowhere stated in the rules,


Objection! Deities and Demigods has a lot of discussion on the nature of deities. Although it basically boils down to gods acting however the DM wants them to, it does specifically call out D&D gods as following the "active" model as the default, rather than the "distant" model.

You're right that there are ways to conduct divinations so as not to specifically annoy one deity, but he's right that if you do annoy that deity, the rules support him/her/it coming after you.


have an infinite amount of beings in on a mutual defense pact...

I don't recall him ever saying there were an infinite number of Efreeti involved, nor even all the Efreeti in existence. The section you quoted simply said "more Efreeti than you can enslave," which is a not unreasonable estimate. Your average spellslinger isn't likely to corral more than one Efreet - there's no real benefit to doing so.

If I'm mistaken, and the "infinite" part [i]was[i/] specified somewhere and isn't just hyperbole on your part, consider this objection withdrawn.

Prodan
2010-06-07, 09:55 PM
Objection! Deities and Demigods has a lot of discussion on the nature of deities. Although it basically boils down to gods acting however the DM wants them to, it does specifically call out D&D gods as following the "active" model as the default, rather than the "distant" model.

You're right that there are ways to conduct divinations so as not to specifically annoy one deity, but he's right that if you do annoy that deity, the rules support him/her/it coming after you.
Outer Planes deities are less involved in day to day matters of planes, from what I am given to understand, than the lower, lesser deities. Ao, for example, barely shows up in the Forgotten Realms, except to set in course events that probably didn't have to do with a wizard bugging him over divinations.



I don't recall him ever saying there were an infinite number of Efreeti involved, nor even all the Efreeti in existence. The section you quoted simply said "more Efreeti than you can enslave," which is a not unreasonable estimate. Your average spellslinger isn't likely to corral more than one Efreet - there's no real benefit to doing so.

If I'm mistaken, and the "infinite" part [i]was[i/] specified somewhere and isn't just hyperbole on your part, consider this objection withdrawn.
Here's the thing; you call on an creature from an infinite number of them. If you don't have all of them in on this, the chances of our precious little cabal ever showing up is roughly.... what's any finite number divided by infinity again?

Fortuna
2010-06-07, 09:55 PM
Because I feel it to be required, I'm going to see if I can convince you (I probably can't).


That's the only defined consequence.

I, personally, won't argue here.


"2) Per the Commune spell "powerful beings of the Outer Planes are not necessarily omniscient" - AKA, the DM is well within his rights to make the accurate roll answer "I don't know". Additionally
3) Per page 5 of the Player's Handbook: "The DM may make some rolls in secret to build suspense and maintain mystery." - which is perfect for Divinations. Which means you don't know the result.... "

Yes, but what does "you had me at soup!" refer to? In this case, the rules actually say that the spells won't work necessarily, and you haven't responded to that.


All to the same deity, apparently.

Outer Deities are busy managing Gods and the balance of the entire multiverse.

Again, I'm not arguing this point.



So you're saying it's possible. Thanks for the help.

So is rolling N natural 20's in a row on a d20, where N is any natural number you care to name. Possibility, plausibility and feasibility are different things, and although it's possible, it's unfeasible.



All the infinite Efreeti in the multiverse are in on this mutual defense pact. Interesting.

Wait, what? Where did you pull that from? No, it's just that there are more efreeti in on it than one or two.



Ah... so... there is no difference between NPC's setting up defenses and using DM fiat to make Wishes more powerful than normal come true in their favor, block knowledge from Great Deities, have Great Deities take action against diviners despite this being nowhere stated in the rules, have an infinite amount of beings in on a mutual defense pact...

I, at least, never said that. I'm not going to claim the more powerful wishes (it's been shown to be superfluous), the infinite amount of beings (again, unnecessary) or the taking action (I don't agree with that point), but the blocking deities at least is in the rules; they aren't necessarily omniscient, so perhaps they lack perfect knowledge of the future behavior of efreeti?

Prodan
2010-06-07, 10:00 PM
Yes, but what does "you had me at soup!" refer to?
SPOOOONNN!!!!


In this case, the rules actually say that the spells won't work necessarily, and you haven't responded to that.
As far as CoP goes,

"# You get a true, one-word answer. Questions that cannot be answered in this way are answered randomly.
# The entity tells you that it doesn’t know.
# The entity intentionally lies to you.
# The entity tries to lie but doesn’t know the answer, so it makes one up."

Those are the results of your CoP roll.



Wait, what? Where did you pull that from? No, it's just that there are more efreeti in on it than one or two.
Let's see... two efreeti, infinite number of fellow efreeti, and a planar binding spell that randomly chooses one of all efreeti currently in existence...

I don't think the pact will actually work since the chance of it being used is roughly zero as n approaches infinity.

Gametime
2010-06-07, 10:04 PM
Outer Planes deities are less involved in day to day matters of planes, from what I am given to understand, than the lower, lesser deities. Ao, for example, barely shows up in the Forgotten Realms, except to set in course events that probably didn't have to do with a wizard bugging him over divinations.

I'm not sure what you mean by "Outer Planes" deities. Do you just mean deities who live on the Outer Planes? Because that describes most of the default (AKA Greyhawk) D&D deities, and they are, again, assumed to be active in the affairs of the Material Plane. (Deities and Demigods says that they all take an active in interest in events on the plane, but by agreement none of them manifest there. The exceptions are Fharlanghn, who just walks around, and Vecna, who has a hidden stronghold on the Material Plane that the other gods can't find.)

Soooo yeah. It's possible that the DM's setting has aloof gods, but the default assumption is that they'll take action. At this point, the argument is entirely contingent on the individual DM, so it's hard for you to point this out as a strength of your argument or a weakness of the opposition.


Here's the thing; you call on an creature from an infinite number of them. If you don't have all of them in on this, the chances of our precious little cabal ever showing up is roughly.... what's any finite number divided by infinity again?

Are there infinite Efreeti? I'm asking honestly, here, because I can't remember any textual evidence one way or the other. Proof would be appreciated.

Also, I'm sure you don't mean it maliciously, but asking rhetorical questions come off as more condescending than I think you intend.




Let's see... two efreeti, infinite number of fellow efreeti, and a planar binding spell that randomly chooses one of all efreeti currently in existence...

I don't think the pact will actually work since the chance of it being used is roughly zero as n approaches infinity.

The City of Brass is home to a majority of efreet, and it's population "far outnumbers that of any of the great cities on the Material Plane."

If such a pact exists, it is not unreasonable to assume that it is orchestrated and regulated by the City of Brass, meaning that more than half of all efreeti would be in on it.

Again, if there are actually infinite efreeti, this doesn't matter, but I still can't find the proof of that.

Prodan
2010-06-07, 10:05 PM
I'm not sure what you mean by "Outer Planes" deities. Do you just mean deities who live on the Outer Planes? Because that describes most of the default (AKA Greyhawk) D&D deities, and they are, again, assumed to be active in the affairs of the Material Plane. (Deities and Demigods says that they all take an active in interest in events on the plane, but by agreement none of them manifest there. The exceptions are Fharlanghn, who just walks around, and Vecna, who has a hidden stronghold on the Material Plane that the other gods can't find.)

Soooo yeah. It's possible that the DM's setting has aloof gods, but the default assumption is that they'll take action. At this point, the argument is entirely contingent on the individual DM, so it's hard for you to point this out as a strength of your argument or a weakness of the opposition.
Hm. I may be getting my FR confused, but what is Ao then?



Are there infinite Efreeti? I'm asking honestly, here, because I can't remember any textual evidence one way or the other. Proof would be appreciated.
As far as I've been able to tell, they all reside on an infinite plane of some sort.



Also, I'm sure you don't mean it maliciously, but asking rhetorical questions come off as more condescending than I think you intend.
Really?

Fortuna
2010-06-07, 10:06 PM
SPOOOONNN!!!!

Whatever.



As far as CoP goes,

"# You get a true, one-word answer. Questions that cannot be answered in this way are answered randomly.
# The entity tells you that it doesn’t know.
# The entity intentionally lies to you.
# The entity tries to lie but doesn’t know the answer, so it makes one up."

Those are the results of your CoP roll.

That's what point three referred to. Since you can have the knowledge of the truthfulness withheld, there's a chance that your information will be inaccurate.


Let's see... two efreeti, infinite number of fellow efreeti, and a planar binding spell that randomly chooses one of all efreeti currently in existence...

I don't think the pact will actually work since the chance of it being used is roughly zero as n approaches infinity.

I see, that makes sense. On the other hand, as has been stated, efreet are likely to form this kind of pact, and while I don't claim that they will all be linked into one giant super-deal, I would be unsurprised if a vast (potentially infinite) number of smaller, like maybe ten-member, pacts.

Gametime
2010-06-07, 10:09 PM
Hm. I may be getting my FR confused, but what is Ao then?

FR is different from Greyhawk (which is the "default" setting, containing the gods in the PH). If you're playing in FR, you've got some basis for expecting an indifferent overdeity, but from what I know of the setting I'm not sure Ao would answer your questions anyway. :smalltongue:

Regardless, my main point is that whether or not the gods come after you is entirely up to the DM.


As far as I've been able to tell, they all reside on an infinite plane of some sort.

They mostly reside in the City of Brass. It's not infinite. The plane it is in is, though, I think - the Elemental Plane of Fire. There are also lots of other outposts.

I can't find any evidence that their population is infinite, though.

awa
2010-06-07, 10:17 PM
ninja
I believe in all likely hood the vast majority would be in some kind of defense pact maby not the same pact but it's to good an idea not to these aren't dragons living alone in a cave they have cities and a society wouldn't you get together with your neighbors in this situation.

And i'm pretty sure their are a finite number of them.

Douglas
2010-06-07, 11:08 PM
Hm. I may be getting my FR confused, but what is Ao then?
He is the overdeity of FR. He's not even on the chart for Contact Other Plane. Greater deities are about as powerful relative to him as a typical kobold is relative to a level 20 adventurer.

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-06-08, 12:08 AM
Craft Contigenct spell isn't a magic item so wish can't make it.

[...]

Unlike Magic items, it can be permanently dispelled. So that shows it isn't a magic item, but a magical effect.

Craft Contingent Spell is an [Item Creation] feat, and contingent spells are under the "New Types of Items" section of Complete Arcane, so contingent spells gained via that feat are indeed magic items.

Shhalahr Windrider
2010-06-08, 05:43 AM
He is the overdeity of FR. He's not even on the chart for Contact Other Plane. Greater deities are about as powerful relative to him as a typical kobold is relative to a level 20 adventurer.
Exactly. The phrase “Greater deity” only refers to how much divine power the deity has. It does not indicate anything about the deity’s rank (if any) in a pantheon, its portfolio, its duties, its concerns, how much free time it has to pursue personal vendetta, or how much interest it has in mortals. Like character level, the designations of lesser, intermediate, and greater are simply measures of ability.

Ingus
2010-06-08, 06:33 AM
Uhm, let me answer this. I'll do in a OOTS way, so please don't feel offended in any way by humor. If you don't laugh, it is probably bad humour (my bad for that) not sarcasm.

Imagine we are a great world of efreeti, living in our brass city, working our efreetish lives and going after efreeti chicks.
Now, in a minute, my buddy here disappears, while we're chatting around and watching the efreetivision for the firebowl finals, his magma beer floating in mid air.
"What?! Not a planar binding again?"
Now I'm pissed off, just hoping that any moron-spellcaster will do it quick.

(1. In case of death, severe resistence, permanent intrapment)
But my buddy is not coming back. An our passed, two and then three. The firebowl is over and I'm no more interested.
My friend is not showing up.
The palanar evening turns to night, the night ends in day.
Something is going bad, really bad.
So, next morning, I go to the efreeti police department, to report a kidnapping. Our cop are not perfectly efficient, but the day after, if my buddy is still missing, will start investigations.
It would be easy to them, since there should be specialist efreeti to handle this problems. Maybe a wizard or cleric efreeti will start to scry material plane, or (this is ironic) contact other planes.
If nothing happens, it is starting to become a diplomatic planar incident.
To go short, imagine me doing this this: "Evil evening, Mr Asmodeus, sir. I humbly show my insignificant efreetiness to your superior might, asking you for your malevolence. It happens I've lost a dear friend and he's still missing. If your overpowerly highness would mind to pay few seconds of his attention to this, I will feel honoured to offer you my most humble service everyday for fifty days", so 150 whishes = an offer too good to refuse.

Now this very bad bad wizard has Asmodeus on his toes. I personally don't agree to the view that wizards are the gods of D&D, but if you do, mind it: Asmodeus is the overlord of the Nine Hells, an archfiend surviving any struggle and anytime increasing his power. And he's a wizard too. :smallbiggrin:

(To prevent a wish escalation, take three efreeties granting wishes everyday, to grant competitive advantage to Asmy)

(2. In case of return of a really pissed off efreeti)
Efreety Buddy now is looking for a very bad person to make it pay to the wizard imprisoning and torturing him.
Imagine this: a month later, the same efreet is conjured with "planar ally" by a cleric. He grants wishes if the cleric will find and kill the bad, bad wizard torturing him.
Or, if he's really, really pissed off, he can still use the tactic shown at point 1.

(3. In case of return of a lesser pissed off efreeti, let's say after he granted 3 wishes after a good bargain)
Magma beer, Firebowl and a loyal friend are the best way to forget a bad day :smallwink:

2xMachina
2010-06-08, 06:53 AM
Ur-priest 10.

Just say hello. Copied your wish. No drawback to you.

Eldan
2010-06-08, 06:57 AM
Ingus: that's basically how summoning and calling were described in Planescape.

Summoning created a small crystal on the outer planes, which hovered around at great speed, chasing people. It appeared close to what it was intended to summon, then followed it around. The first thing it hit was summoned.

Cue people dodging crystals to avoid stupid mortals summoning them away from important business.

Set
2010-06-08, 07:22 AM
Would this not bring up the problem of why a cabal of effreti wizards are not running everything.

Because if Efreeti actually had the power to grant three wishes a day and the intelligence the gods gave a housecat, they *would* rule everything.

Therefore, the only logical conclusion is that the Monster Manual is in error.

Genies grant 'favors,' not wishes. They have magical powers that make that easier, sometimes as exciting as True Creation (strangely left out of their write up, but hey, we've already stipulated that the writeup couldn't possibly be accurate without breaking the game), allowing them to bestow upon favored mortals (and successful petitioners) gifts of silk and brass and 'djinn steel' and 'pearls without price' and 'smokeless fire' and 'really good hash, man.'

If every single Efreeti could snatch some mortal (elemental, mephit, whatever) and order it to read off the words on this scroll, and then choose to either grant it as a Wish (if the non-genie read the words exactly right, so that the Wish would give the genie some cool stuff) or not waste a Wish and smack the non-genie around some for getting the wording wrong, then yeah, the City of Brass would be the center of the universe, and everything else would be various servant realms of the Efreeti.

And if there was some arbitrary reason that they didn't do this, why the heck would they even have the power to do so?

It would be like giving shadows and wraiths and spectres the power to create unlimited unstoppable incorporeal armies in mere moments, by passing quickly through villages full of sleeping commoners at night!

Oh wait...

Jack_Simth
2010-06-08, 07:26 AM
That's the only defined consequence.What do you do if a given pest annoys you repeatedly? Remember: You're contacting a greater deity. What does a human do if it's repeatedly annoyed by flies?


"2) Per the Commune spell "powerful beings of the Outer Planes are not necessarily omniscient" - AKA, the DM is well within his rights to make the accurate roll answer "I don't know". Additionally
3) Per page 5 of the Player's Handbook: "The DM may make some rolls in secret to build suspense and maintain mystery." - which is perfect for Divinations. Which means you don't know the result.... "

What does "Soup" refer to?


All to the same deity, apparently.

In order for your massive number of Contact Other Planes spells to not repeatedly hit the same deity, you first need to figure out: How many "greater deities" are there? If the number is smaller than your number of castings of contact other plane, then you've got the pidgeonhole problem: you're going to be repeatedly hitting up the same deity. Oh yes, and the DM gets to define the number of deities.


Outer Deities are busy managing Gods and the balance of the entire multiverse.That's one hypothesis. But then again, it's the DM that gets to define NPC action, reasoning, ability, and availability.

Of course, if they are busy, they're going to be annoyed by repeated questions even more, as it cuts down on the amount of time they can spend managing the multiverse. Repeated questions now pose enough of a threat that they need to be dealt with....

So you're saying it's possible. Thanks for the help.There's a difference between "possible" and "feasible". Oh yes, and if the random density is high enough, staying away from troublesome moments renders adventuring rather tricky.

Besides: The Contact Other Plane shenanigans was an "even if" clause on Wish not being able to snatch you out of a Dimension Locked area. Which you never actually adequately countered.

All the infinite Efreeti in the multiverse are in on this mutual defense pact. Interesting.
Not the same one, no. But this type of thing is very much in their interests (they've got a racial hatred of being enslaved in their MM description). The majority of them are expected to be in on a mutual defense pact, because it's one of the easier ways to arrange for avoiding slavery. And they're Lawful by default, so alliances are something they'd think of.

Let's see... this next section needs to be handled point-by-point....

Ah... so... there is no difference between NPC's setting up defenses and using DM fiat to make Wishes more powerful than normal come true in their favorMoving you to an unexpectedly lethal location while you're resting up is all they really need. Which is on the safe list. The avoiding twisting was an "even if" clause on an aspect you never actually adequately debunked.

, block knowledge from Great Deities,
It's part of the rules that the deities in D&D aren't necessarily omniscient, and you're asking them about the future. How would you expect your DM to respond if you asked your greater deity if you were going to win a particular fight? Unless he fiats all your die rolls for the fight, selects your tactics, et cetera, he can't give you a definitive answer within the rules. But to give you that answer, which your interpretation of the rules demands of him, he can't do so. It's a much simpler matter to say "The future is not fully set, and even greater deities cannot know the full weft and weave of time" than it is to answer questions about the future for individuals

have Great Deities take action against diviners despite this being nowhere stated in the rules
It's also nowhere stated in the rules that the King will have his guards try to take you down if you insult him enough. Would you expect the king to sit idly by and not give out orders for pain/suffering/death if a lowly commoner was sneaking into his courts and making demands? Sure, the first time, it'd just be a whipping.... but after ten or a hundred?

, have an infinite amount of beings in on a mutual defense pact
They're not all in on the same one... but rapid Wish abuse requires you run across quite a few efreeti. If *most* efreeti are in mutual defense pacts of, say, ten, you're going to quite quickly get more enemies than you have allies.

who decide to send in uber high level hit squads to teach wizards a lesson in pain and dole out the harshness...
1) Efreeti advance by character class (it's in their description)
2) They're Lawful, so working together is totally in-character for them. As is hiring others.
3) They've got one of the best natural abilities in terms of paying people. Wizards can start Planar Binding Efreeti under their own power at level 11 (Planar Binding is a 6th level spell, and that's the minimum for binding an Efreeti due to their ten hit dice). Three Wishes make for a fairly nice payment even for a 20th level character. Why *wouldn't* efreeti hire hit squads?


Again, kudos to you. I award you one Internets. You know what it's for by now.This coming from the guy who has responded, in this thread, to rational argument with such things as:
I believe my interpretation is valid for purely selfish and egotistical reasons.
?

Ah, yeah, I think I'm done debating this with you.


They mostly reside in the City of Brass. It's not infinite. The plane it is in is, though, I think - the Elemental Plane of Fire. There are also lots of other outposts.

I can't find any evidence that their population is infinite, though.
This one's easy:
They are on the random encounter tables for certain planes - therefore, their population has a nonzero density on the planes that use that random encounter table. Some of the planes that use that random encounter table are infinite. So you've got a nonzero density of something over an infinite plane - which means you've got an infinite number of that something. Hence, infinite Efreeti.

Prodan
2010-06-08, 07:54 AM
What do you do if a given pest annoys you repeatedly? Remember: You're contacting a greater deity. What does a human do if it's repeatedly annoyed by flies?
Addressed below.


In order for your massive number of Contact Other Planes spells to not repeatedly hit the same deity, you first need to figure out: How many "greater deities" are there? If the number is smaller than your number of castings of contact other plane, then you've got the pidgeonhole problem: you're going to be repeatedly hitting up the same deity.
Even assuming it's the same deity, see below.



That's one hypothesis. But then again, it's the DM that gets to define NPC action, reasoning, ability, and availability.

Of course, if they are busy, they're going to be annoyed by repeated questions even more, as it cuts down on the amount of time they can spend managing the multiverse. Repeated questions now pose enough of a threat that they need to be dealt with....
Here's a question: in any campaign, there's likely to be lots of wizards who can cast CoP. Not only on the material plane; Demons and Devils study wizardry, and there are an infinite amount of them. Logically, they must cast and infinite amount of CoP... so how does one mortal spamming CoP add to infinity in a way that would make a God smite him?



Besides: The Contact Other Plane shenanigans was an "even if" clause on Wish not being able to snatch you out of a Dimension Locked area. Which you never actually adequately countered.
What's there to counter? Wish can't snatch someone out of a Dimension Locked area as far as I can tell. Teleportation spells generally have limits on where someone can be placed on exit, and Wish seems to be saying that it can ignore those limitations.


Not the same one, no. But this type of thing is very much in their interests (they've got a racial hatred of being enslaved in their MM description). The majority of them are expected to be in on a mutual defense pact, because it's one of the easier ways to arrange for avoiding slavery.
OK then.

And they're Lawful by default, so alliances are something they'd think of.
By that logic, they're also evil by default, so they'll continually sabatoge each others' alliances.

"I wish for all non-efreeti, except for those in the current room, in the plane of fire to be returned whence they came, or to a nice, suitable location." Says the slave to his master. Since his master is the one to define the power of the Wish spell, every other competition is deprived of his wishmonkey.



Let's see... this next section needs to be handled point-by-point....
Moving you to an unexpectedly lethal location while you're resting up is all they really need. Which is on the safe list. The avoiding twisting was an "even if" clause on an aspect you never actually adequately debunked.
If you really are hung up on "local conditions", start a thread on it. I consider there adequate room for my interpretation.


It's part of the rules that the deities in D&D aren't necessarily omniscient, and you're asking them about the future. How would you expect your DM to respond if you asked your greater deity if you were going to win a particular fight? Unless he fiats all your die rolls for the fight, selects your tactics, et cetera, he can't give you a definitive answer within the rules. But to give you that answer, which your interpretation of the rules demands of him, he can't do so. It's a much simpler matter to say "The future is not fully set, and even greater deities cannot know the full weft and weave of time" than it is to answer questions about the future for individuals
But asking when you'll be attacked... by the DM... isn't quite that, is it?


It's also nowhere stated in the rules that the King will have his guards try to take you down if you insult him enough. Would you expect the king to sit idly by and not give out orders for pain/suffering/death if a lowly commoner was sneaking into his courts and making demands? Sure, the first time, it'd just be a whipping.... but after ten or a hundred?
You're not sneaking in the court room; you're using a spell that the deity has allowed to exist and function to contact said deity. This is different.


They're not all in on the same one... but rapid Wish abuse requires you run across quite a few efreeti. If *most* efreeti are in mutual defense pacts of, say, ten, you're going to quite quickly get more enemies than you have allies.
If we have a bunch of Efreeti working together, why don't they use their Wish powers to Dimension Lock their homes and avoid the Planar Binding entrapment all together?


Why *wouldn't* efreeti hire hit squads?
The complaint wasn't against hit squads per se, but against the DM throwing out overly powerful hit squads with the specific goal of attacking the player.


This coming from the guy who has responded, in this thread, to rational argument with such things as:
You obviously didn't get the joke.

jiriku
2010-06-08, 09:07 AM
Originally Posted by jiriku
3. "I wish that upon release from this binding, you'd forget I ever called you and refuse to believe any evidence to the contrary."


Per Lesser Planar Binding: "Impossible demands or unreasonable commands are never agreed to. " Mind controlling ones self could quite easily fall under that clause.


You're suggesting that an efreeti's wish is incapable of duplicating a 4th-level bard spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/modifyMemory.htm)?

Really Jack, a key component of engaging in honest debate is being willing to admit that sometimes your opponent can say something and not be wrong.

Ingus
2010-06-08, 09:59 AM
@Eldan: I enjoyed very much Planescape games. One of them started with my poor PC being summoned exactly this way :smallbiggrin:

I just wanted to point out that a non flat vision of planes and outsiders would end in a action/reaction dynamic. The Planar Binding spell states everywhere that the binding is a dangerous task and the more you keep bound an outsider, the more you risk ripercussions.
(I think: even CE outsiders would come together, thinking "I can be the next", not considering that outsiders are minions of more powerful outsiders or deities)

I guess we are on the same opinion about this (if I see right)


Originally Posted by jiriku
3. "I wish that upon release from this binding, you'd forget I ever called you and refuse to believe any evidence to the contrary."


You're suggesting that an efreeti's wish is incapable of duplicating a 4th-level bard spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/modifyMemory.htm)?


He's only quoting part of the spell text.
From SRD:
"Impossible demands or unreasonable commands are never agreed to." If it is not impossible, it can be argued that is unreasonable to force a being to modify his own memory.
And then this doesn't help for sure with the exact subject, since any erase/modify memory spell I know does allow a saving throw. And in any case, other outsiders missing the one bound would not be affected.

IMO binding an outsider per se is not so dangerous. The dangerous part is the consequence :smallamused:

Killer Angel
2010-06-08, 10:40 AM
I hate the following reasoning, but still...

I don't think you can even gate/bind/summon/whateveryouwant a creature that has wish as SLA. :smallamused:
By raw, a wish can create any magical item, without limits of gp value, and if it's a SLA wish, it's free from loss of xps.
So, the logic consequence, is that any creature with SLA wish, has created long time ago his own amulet against gate/bind/summon/whateveryouwant.

Jayabalard
2010-06-08, 11:08 AM
I believe my interpretation is valid for purely selfish and egotistical reasons.I think that's pretty much what The_Glyphstone was saying.

Yuki Akuma
2010-06-08, 11:11 AM
I hate the following reasoning, but still...

I don't think you can even gate/bind/summon/whateveryouwant a creature that has wish as SLA. :smallamused:
By raw, a wish can create any magical item, without limits of gp value, and if it's a SLA wish, it's free from loss of xps.
So, the logic consequence, is that any creature with SLA wish, has created long time ago his own amulet against gate/bind/summon/whateveryouwant.

Efreeti can't grant their own wishes, remember. Or the wish of another efreet.

Prodan
2010-06-08, 11:12 AM
I think that's pretty much what The_Glyphstone was saying.

Let's be honest for a moment. Don't we all?

Gametime
2010-06-08, 11:30 AM
It's part of the rules that the deities in D&D aren't necessarily omniscient, and you're asking them about the future.

Although Greater Deities do know pretty much everything that happens involving their portfolio, several weeks into both the past and the future, at the same time, without even trying.

It still falls under DM fiat, but if your campaign has a reasonably extensive pantheon you can probably find a greater deity who knows what you want to learn. (Of course, there are unlikely to be several appropriate deities, which does raise the problem of irritation.)


This one's easy:
They are on the random encounter tables for certain planes - therefore, their population has a nonzero density on the planes that use that random encounter table. Some of the planes that use that random encounter table are infinite. So you've got a nonzero density of something over an infinite plane - which means you've got an infinite number of that something. Hence, infinite Efreeti.

Objection: Unless my memory is faulty, a finite number divided by infinity isn't zero, it's very close to zero.

Also, applying mathematics to D&D cosmology is generally an exercise in futility.

awa
2010-06-08, 11:36 AM
That's a good point logically an wish granting creature would have a magical item that gives them selective dimensional anchor (assuming that would stop the spell)

I believe we have adequately determined that by raw the genies can get wishes vie intimidation so that part does not matter.

Killer Angel
2010-06-08, 11:39 AM
Efreeti can't grant their own wishes, remember. Or the wish of another efreet.

yep, but this is easy.
Efreeti: "Slave! ask me the following wish blablabla..."
Slave "I wish you free me!"
Efreeti: ":smallconfused: ...I don't think I'll grant you this wish"
Efreeti beats severly the first slave.
Efreeti: "you! second slave!..."

Starbuck_II
2010-06-08, 11:48 AM
Efreeti can't grant their own wishes, remember. Or the wish of another efreet.

He was cheating by having the Efreeti force their slave (non-Effreeti) to wish stuff.

Jack_Simth
2010-06-08, 05:04 PM
Originally Posted by jiriku
3. "I wish that upon release from this binding, you'd forget I ever called you and refuse to believe any evidence to the contrary."



You're suggesting that an efreeti's wish is incapable of duplicating a 4th-level bard spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/modifyMemory.htm)?

Really Jack, a key component of engaging in honest debate is being willing to admit that sometimes your opponent can say something and not be wrong.
No, I'm saying that under the clause of unreasonable demands, a Wish from the Efreeti (or Noble Dijinni) that is for the purposes of mind-controling the Efreeti (or Noble Dijinni) could very easily be considered "unreasonable" - which is a "never agreed to" thing, per Lesser Planar Binding.


Although Greater Deities do know pretty much everything that happens involving their portfolio, several weeks into both the past and the future, at the same time, without even trying.

It still falls under DM fiat, but if your campaign has a reasonably extensive pantheon you can probably find a greater deity who knows what you want to learn. (Of course, there are unlikely to be several appropriate deities, which does raise the problem of irritation.)

Yep, it do. Mwahahahaha...

Alternately, as the DM, you just use enough Efreeti attempting often enough that it overwhelms the Wizard's ability to differentiate when he'll be zapped, and he's stuck in a cave somewhere for a long time until they give up.

Alternately, as the DM, you let the Transport Travelers clause of Wish overwhelm "local conditions" of Dimensional Anchors, Antimagic Fields, and Dimension Locks.

Alternately, as the DM, you have a nice chat with your player about breaking the game.


Objection: Unless my memory is faulty, a finite number divided by infinity isn't zero, it's very close to zero.

The fine distinction doesn't matter in this case.

See, I'm not starting with a large number and dividing it by infinity.
I'm starting with a knowable ratio and multiplying it by infinity.

Suppose you've got PlaneA where, every mile of travel, you have a 1% chance of running into a critter, and there's a 1% chance that critter is a Boojun, then there is, on average, one encountered Boojun per 10,000 miles of travel. If the plane where this is accurate is infinite, how many Boojuns are you expected to encounter if you traverse PlaneA from end to end?

Now replace "Boojun" with "Efreeti", and "PlaneA" with "The Elemental Plane of Fire". Efreeti show up on the random encounter list for the Elemental Plane of Fire (DMG page 156 - % roll of 1-15). The Plane of Fire is infinite. Ergo, Infinite numbers of Efreeti are on the Plane of Fire. Ergo, there's an infinite number of Efreeti in the multiverse.


Also, applying mathematics to D&D cosmology is generally an exercise in futility.Well, yes, but it can be amusing.


He was cheating by having the Efreeti force their slave (non-Effreeti) to wish stuff.
Yep. And,considering that in the scenario, the player is cheating by binding lots of Efreeti to get arbitrary numbers of Wishes, it's fair, too. Plus it's RAW. Efreeti live on the same plane as Fire Memphits, and a stock Fire Memphit simply can't resist the Intimidate check of the stock Efreeti.

Gametime
2010-06-08, 07:06 PM
Suppose you've got PlaneA where, every mile of travel, you have a 1% chance of running into a critter, and there's a 1% chance that critter is a Boojun, then there is, on average, one encountered Boojun per 10,000 miles of travel. If the plane where this is accurate is infinite, how many Boojuns are you expected to encounter if you traverse PlaneA from end to end?

Wait, what? How can you traverse an infinite plane "from end to end?"

Your point is, however, valid.


Now replace "Boojun" with "Efreeti", and "PlaneA" with "The Elemental Plane of Fire". Efreeti show up on the random encounter list for the Elemental Plane of Fire (DMG page 156 - % roll of 1-15). The Plane of Fire is infinite. Ergo, Infinite numbers of Efreeti are on the Plane of Fire. Ergo, there's an infinite number of Efreeti in the multiverse.

Yeah, I checked and verified that after my last post. Amusingly enough, every listed plane in the default D&D cosmology is infinite; only demiplanes are described as finite. Of course, the Material Plane's random encounters are sorted by environment, but that still means there are infinite somethings native to the Material.

This strikes me as far more amusing than infinite outsiders, for some reason.

The Glyphstone
2010-06-08, 07:13 PM
I think that's pretty much what The_Glyphstone was saying.

Wait, why am I getting dragged back into this?:smallconfused:

Jack_Simth
2010-06-08, 08:10 PM
Wait, what? How can you traverse an infinite plane "from end to end?"

You spend an infinite amount of time doing so, of course, or do so at an infinite velocity.


Your point is, however, valid.



Yeah, I checked and verified that after my last post. Amusingly enough, every listed plane in the default D&D cosmology is infinite; only demiplanes are described as finite. Of course, the Material Plane's random encounters are sorted by environment, but that still means there are infinite somethings native to the Material.

This strikes me as far more amusing than infinite outsiders, for some reason.

So that is why the prime material hasn't been conquered by the Abyss ... it's too big!

Malakar
2010-06-08, 08:23 PM
Why would Effreti go through all this trouble when just wishing for a staff of Wishes is so much easier, and results in no one ever bothering them again, and they don't have to fear high level Wizards killing them on a regular basis out of spite?

jiriku
2010-06-08, 08:42 PM
No, I'm saying that under the clause of unreasonable demands, a Wish from the Efreeti (or Noble Dijinni) that is for the purposes of mind-controling the Efreeti (or Noble Dijinni) could very easily be considered "unreasonable" - which is a "never agreed to" thing, per Lesser Planar Binding.

OK, I think I understand your argument better. You're suggesting that the requirement, while well within the genie's abilities, is an unreasonable request.

However, aren't you trying to have it both ways here? First, you want to discuss this from a theoretical, RAW-type environment, which disregards the rulings of my two DMs who both felt the request was reasonable. Then, you want to apply an interpretation that using magic to erase memory of a summoning is "unreasonable", which is a judgement call that only a DM could make. How does that work?

Further, fantasy traditions includes called genies consenting to such tasks as

obey my every command for a year and a day
grant me tremendous wealth and power (which I could easily use to bind you again, especially since you've proven so useful)
go assassinate one of my enemies, at considerable risk to your own life and limb
protect and advise the royal heir until she reaches the age of eighteen
hop in this lamp, then come out to serve its possessor whenever someone rubs it.


Does "forget the events of the past few minutes, and acquire the false memory that you were sitting at home on your couch drinking a beer" REALLY seem so unreasonable, when compared against the above activities?

awa
2010-06-08, 09:01 PM
i suppose it depends on who gets to decide what unreasonable is the genie or some cosmic power. it still wouldn't protect you from eh defensive pact if they were smart enough to include automatic alerts.

And in regards to their evil they should automatically be required to screw each other i will point out first that not necessarily what evil means and second their not stupid the defensive pact is to good an idea to screw up

Jack_Simth
2010-06-08, 09:14 PM
OK, I think I understand your argument better. You're suggesting that the requirement, while well within the genie's abilities, is an unreasonable request.

However, aren't you trying to have it both ways here? First, you want to discuss this from a theoretical, RAW-type environment, which disregards the rulings of my two DMs who both felt the request was reasonable. Then, you want to apply an interpretation that using magic to erase memory of a summoning is "unreasonable", which is a judgement call that only a DM could make. How does that work?

Because I'm not fully discussing this from a theoretical, RAW-type environment. I'm approaching it from the perspective of a DM that's working within the text as much as is readily feasible to curtail the rules abuse that results in infinite wish chains for the players.

So where there's noticeable wiggle-room in the rules, it's in the favor of my discussion perspective, as the DM is the arbiter of the game, and gets to choose which interpretations are valid at the table.



Further, fantasy traditions includes called genies consenting to such tasks as

obey my every command for a year and a day
grant me tremendous wealth and power (which I could easily use to bind you again, especially since you've proven so useful)
go assassinate one of my enemies, at considerable risk to your own life and limb
protect and advise the royal heir until she reaches the age of eighteen
hop in this lamp, then come out to serve its possessor whenever someone rubs it.


Do note that several of those can't be commanded with Planar Binding as written: "If you assign some open-ended task that the creature cannot complete though its own actions the spell remains in effect for a maximum of one day per caster level, and the creature gains an immediate chance to break free."

Besides: Story always trumps rules anyway. And there's ways to make most of those happen, they're just a bit chancier. Mark of Justice, for instance, could be used to encourage obedience: The target either obeys, or suffers some particularly annoying consequence. Dominate Monster has a long enough duration that casting it on a target on a daily basis will usually keep the target in line. And so on. There's a magic item in the DMG that amounts to a bound Efreeti (with a slight chance it'll try to kill you... oh well).


Does "forget the events of the past few minutes, and acquire the false memory that you were sitting at home on your couch drinking a beer" REALLY seem so unreasonable, when compared against the above activities?
Sometimes. But it doesn't matter, as it's the DM that gets to interpret the line. So getting free Wishes that way a handful of times where it's convenient to the plot is unlikely to have severe repercussions. Getting dozens of free Wishes with no goal beyond character power? Not so much.

Ingus
2010-06-09, 04:22 AM
I concur with Jack Smith.

However, in a RAW only discussion, you're talking about a wish used to replicate a spell of lower level. So, Will save: yes, SR: yes.
With a will save of +9 and a save DC for wish of 23 (19 Cha [minimum, non his 15] + 9th level spell) he still has the opportunity to avoid the effect with a 14 or more, so a 35%.
Risky, isn't it?

Shhalahr Windrider
2010-06-09, 05:48 AM
Further, fantasy traditions includes called genies consenting to such tasks as

obey my every command for a year and a day
grant me tremendous wealth and power (which I could easily use to bind you again, especially since you've proven so useful)
go assassinate one of my enemies, at considerable risk to your own life and limb
protect and advise the royal heir until she reaches the age of eighteen
hop in this lamp, then come out to serve its possessor whenever someone rubs it.

Are you suggesting that these “fantasy traditions” are all based on the wording of a single third edition D&D spell? :smallconfused:

hewhosaysfish
2010-06-09, 06:51 AM
Are you suggesting that these “fantasy traditions” are all based on the wording of a single third edition D&D spell? :smallconfused:

No, I think he suggesting the reverse: that the 3rd Ed DnD spell should function according to the fantasy traditions and that the spell should therefore be able to replicate the described tasks and therefore that the restrictions should be loose enough to allow these tasks and therefore the restrictions are loose enough to allow you to force an efreet to mind-wipe itself since this is (arguably) less "unreasonable" than any of the described tasks.

Your Nemesis
2010-06-09, 09:20 AM
I would just like to remind those participating in this discussion that you can in fact specify characteristics of that which you bind. Assuming you have realized the implications of this pact, you can simply wish for an Efreeti who is not part of it.

jiriku
2010-06-09, 09:50 AM
OK. I see where Jack is coming from. He's basically saying,

"When I the DM, infinite wishes with no repercussions is waaaay more mileage than I'd ever let you get out of a sixth-level planar binding spell. However, if you use additional magic such as mark of binding, geas, dominate monster, etc., you'll get much further than you would with planar binding alone. Even so, if you use an in-game effect to break the game, I'll create in-game situations that prevent you from breaking the game."

I can buy into that. That's a reasonable position for a DM to take, and one that enhances, rather than diminishes, gameplay.

IMC, I houserule that all calling spells (planar binding, gate, etc.) require a Diplomacy check, rather than a Charisma check, to convince a creature to serve, and I use Rich Burlew's alternate Diplomacy rules (http://www.giantitp.com/articles/jFppYwv7OUkegKhONNF.html). Thus, offering a "something for nothing" deal results in a hefty penalty and the creature usually refuses the deal. Heavy Diplomacy optimization could still overcome this, but if a character invests considerable resources into being good at calling outsiders, I'm more comfortable with it than if he just casually picks up planar binding.

Killer Angel
2010-06-09, 10:48 AM
Yep. And,considering that in the scenario, the player is cheating by binding lots of Efreeti to get arbitrary numbers of Wishes, it's fair, too. Plus it's RAW. Efreeti live on the same plane as Fire Memphits, and a stock Fire Memphit simply can't resist the Intimidate check of the stock Efreeti.

Exactly.
Personally, I prefer the situation where the player don't even try to "win D&D". :smallwink:

but, IF a player tries to cheat the game with a RAW trick (gate/infinite wish loop), then I, as a DM, can only do 3 things.
1 - LOL in the face of the player and smack him with the manual
2 - house rules for the situation
3 - find a "cheating" solution within RAW. Hence the trick "every Efreeti used one wish to protect himself from Gate, etc.".



Obviously, in the latter case, you should be ready to face the potential consequences. For example: why the Efreeti aren't ruling all the universe, creating Staves of wishes for free?
Obviously, I (as the DM) know the answer... :smallcool:

Tiki Snakes
2010-06-09, 11:30 AM
So, you call up your Efreet, and you make your wishes;

1 - Thing you Want
2 - Candle of Cheesevocation
3 - On your behalf, Efreet, an amulet of selective dimensional anchor to prevent such inconveniences for you in the future.
Pleasure working with you, Mr Efreet.

Everyone wins?

jiriku
2010-06-09, 12:14 PM
So, you call up your Efreet, and you make your wishes;

1 - Thing you Want
2 - Candle of Cheesevocation
3 - On your behalf, Efreet, an amulet of selective dimensional anchor to prevent such inconveniences for you in the future.
Pleasure working with you, Mr Efreet.

Everyone wins?

Brilliant, brilliant, brilliant. I heartily approve.

Ashiel
2010-06-09, 02:21 PM
It amuses me that people go through such incredible lengths to try and come up with some sort of convoluted way to prevent people from doing something that just obviously works; many of which are out-right breaking the rules (since Djinn cannot grant themselves or other Djinn wishes; and if you wanna grant wishes to your slaves - have fun with that).

It's really this simple.
1) Wizard preps for a Planar Binding (Magic Circle, Dimension Lock, etc).
2) Wizard summons Efreeti; welcomes the Efreeti and explains that he or she would like to propose a mutually beneficial deal - an alliance of sorts - in which the Djinn gets to make an Aladdin's Deal (2 wishes for me, and 3rd wish for you); with the offer for the Djinn to give you its name to summon it specifically so that it can get more wishes and you can build a working relationship.
3) If the Djinn has more than 2 braincells, they will take this extremely lucrative deal that costs them nothing and gains them one or more wishes. If not, the Wizard simply thanks the Djinn for hearing the offer and whisks the Djinn back to his or her home plane and summons another.
4) Wizard repeats until they meet an Efreeti that isn't stupid.

It's easier to re-write the Wish spell to avoid the infinity-GP magic item abuse, as opposed to trying to come up with convoluted ways to keep Djinn from doing smart things with smarter wizards. :smallamused:

Shhalahr Windrider
2010-06-09, 02:51 PM
No, I think he suggesting the reverse: that the 3rd Ed DnD spell should function according to the fantasy traditions…
Should and does are two different things.

Further, sure, it should be possible to get an efreet to agree to an unreasonable deal with the right strength magic. But evidently, the game designers didn’t feel that planar binding was strong enough. This is a bit like pointing to a fantasy tradition of wizards creating storms and then saying you should be able to replicated that tradition with gust of wind. You want to replicate a strong tradition, then you use a stronger spell.


…and that the spell should therefore be able to replicate the described tasks and therefore that the restrictions should be loose enough to allow these tasks…
No. Most of those tasks are more powerful than what is considered appropriate for a sixth-level spell, as seen by the fact that most of them violate one or two restrictions. Namely the restriction on reasonableness and the duration on open-ended tasks. If you want something that goes past those, you come up with a higher-level spell or combination of higher-level spells, and you’ll have your replicated tradition.


…and therefore the restrictions are loose enough to allow you to force an efreet to mind-wipe itself since this is (arguably) less "unreasonable" than any of the described tasks.
Most of those tasks aren’t reasonable on an objective level, especially without great compensation. They’re simply not allowed and have no bearing.

Furthermore, consider things from the efreeti’s point of view. An efreet is the classical vengeful genie. You know: the type that “thanks” the one who frees him from imprisonment by killing him (there’s another fantasy tradition for you). Would such a being ever think it reasonable to cast a spell to make it forget all about the puny mortal that ripped it from its home and humiliated it, and therefore deny itself revenge? Not very likely.

And, let’s face it, being mostly immortal, such a being often can take the long view. Suffer what a human might think is greater humiliation by serving this puny mortal for a longer period. Then you can get that revenge you desire so much.


It's really this simple.
1) Wizard preps for a Planar Binding (Magic Circle, Dimension Lock, etc).
2) Wizard summons Efreeti; welcomes the Efreeti and explains that he or she would like to propose a mutually beneficial deal - an alliance of sorts - in which the Djinn gets to make an Aladdin's Deal (2 wishes for me, and 3rd wish for you); with the offer for the Djinn to give you its name to summon it specifically so that it can get more wishes and you can build a working relationship.
3) If the Djinn has more than 2 braincells, they will take this extremely lucrative deal that costs them nothing and gains them one or more wishes. If not, the Wizard simply thanks the Djinn for hearing the offer and whisks the Djinn back to his or her home plane and summons another.
4) Wizard repeats until they meet an Efreeti that isn't stupid.
Well, I wouldn’t necessarily phrase it as the efreeti being “stupid”. No matter how you slice it, the subject of a binding winds up acting as servant to the caster. And efreet have their pride. Man do they have their pride.

But, yeah, this seems to be the intent behind planar binding. It’s a negotiation. It never hurts to sweeten the deal a bit for the one with whom you are negotiating.

Koury
2010-06-09, 03:08 PM
With regards to the "reasonable requests only" thing, what about the following:

Planar Binding, summoning the Efreeti.
Wizard says "Grant my three wishes."

If the Efreeti thinks this to be unreasonable, then there is perhaps an issue. After this has been agreed to, however, it doesn't matter what the Efreeti thinks of the wishes themselves.

As for making him agree in the first place, giving him the 3rd wish, or torturing him or whatever you normally do here is all fair game.

Jack_Simth
2010-06-09, 05:29 PM
With regards to the "reasonable requests only" thing, what about the following:

Planar Binding, summoning the Efreeti.
Wizard says "Grant my three wishes."

If the Efreeti thinks this to be unreasonable, then there is perhaps an issue. After this has been agreed to, however, it doesn't matter what the Efreeti thinks of the wishes themselves.

As for making him agree in the first place, giving him the 3rd wish, or torturing him or whatever you normally do here is all fair game.
Compare to "Do absolutely everything I tell you to do over the course of the next ten minutes with no hesitation", with one of the orders in that timeframe being "Kill yourself right now". I'm exaggerating here, of course, but it's the same essential scenario.

Wizard: "Grant me three wishes"
Efreeti: "Maybe, what are your Wishes"
Wizard: "What, you're not going to agree to doing so, considering it's something you can do easily?"
Efreeti: "Of course not. Wishes are powerful, you might use one of them to hurt me very badly. I need to know what you actually want before I agree to it."
(and then, of course, the Efreeti isn't obligated to follow through on a "switch" Wish).


It amuses me that people go through such incredible lengths to try and come up with some sort of convoluted way to prevent people from doing something that just obviously works; many of which are out-right breaking the rules (since Djinn cannot grant themselves or other Djinn wishes; and if you wanna grant wishes to your slaves - have fun with that).

It's really this simple.
1) Wizard preps for a Planar Binding (Magic Circle, Dimension Lock, etc).
2) Wizard summons Efreeti; welcomes the Efreeti and explains that he or she would like to propose a mutually beneficial deal - an alliance of sorts - in which the Djinn gets to make an Aladdin's Deal (2 wishes for me, and 3rd wish for you); with the offer for the Djinn to give you its name to summon it specifically so that it can get more wishes and you can build a working relationship.
3) If the Djinn has more than 2 braincells, they will take this extremely lucrative deal that costs them nothing and gains them one or more wishes. If not, the Wizard simply thanks the Djinn for hearing the offer and whisks the Djinn back to his or her home plane and summons another.
4) Wizard repeats until they meet an Efreeti that isn't stupid.

Efreeti can arrange to get their own Wishes granted - nothing says they *have* to grant an individual Wish when they're not bound to it by some means, so when the Slave Wishes for their own freedom / the death of the Efreeti / anything other than what the Efreeti told the Slave to Wish up ... nothing happens (other than the Efreeti killing that particular slave in the presence of other slaves). Oh yes, and they've got critters that reside on the same plane as they do, which they can render "Friendly" for a time, without fail (check the Intimidate mechanics, then compare the Fire Memphit to the Efreeti). So they could use all three Wishes for themselves, instead, quite easily. Which is about three times as lucrative as your offer, costs essentially the same resources, and doesn't subject them to serving a lowly mortal.

How, exactly, is it stupid to refuse your deal, again?

It's easier to re-write the Wish spell to avoid the infinity-GP magic item abuse, as opposed to trying to come up with convoluted ways to keep Djinn from doing smart things with smarter wizards. :smallamused:
Well, yes - treat spell-like abilities similar to scrolls; they provide a fixed amount of XP for the purposes of XP-costing effects. A Wish from an Efreeti is a stock 5,000 xp Wish. Any additional XP that would be needed is drained from the person making the Wish (not the Efreeti).

However, that's a house-rule. Which, while "fine and dandy, dandy and fine" as the saying goes, is usually frowned upon on what amounts to a rules forum; the printed rules are what everyone has in common, and you need to speak the common language. So finding ways to avoid such abuse without breaking the rules or saying "Just don't do it" still serves a purpose.


OK. I see where Jack is coming from. He's basically saying,

"When I the DM, infinite wishes with no repercussions is waaaay more mileage than I'd ever let you get out of a sixth-level planar binding spell. However, if you use additional magic such as mark of binding, geas, dominate monster, etc., you'll get much further than you would with planar binding alone. Even so, if you use an in-game effect to break the game, I'll create in-game situations that prevent you from breaking the game."

I can buy into that. That's a reasonable position for a DM to take, and one that enhances, rather than diminishes, gameplay.

Pretty much.


IMC, I houserule that all calling spells (planar binding, gate, etc.) require a Diplomacy check, rather than a Charisma check, to convince a creature to serve, and I use Rich Burlew's alternate Diplomacy rules (http://www.giantitp.com/articles/jFppYwv7OUkegKhONNF.html). Thus, offering a "something for nothing" deal results in a hefty penalty and the creature usually refuses the deal. Heavy Diplomacy optimization could still overcome this, but if a character invests considerable resources into being good at calling outsiders, I'm more comfortable with it than if he just casually picks up planar binding.
That's one way of doing it. I've always had a problem with The Giant's version, though: it breaks things the other way.

An untrained little boy asks his Cleric-10 grandma for a cookie, she says no. Yet she's supposed to say "yes" at least once. But she won't (seriously - run the math). It is extremely difficult to donate a large plot of land to a church. Rich's Diplomacy Fix mostly fixes things for the Diplomancer... but it means anyone who doesn't invest fairly heavily in Diplomacy can't do much, if at all, after about level 10 (the 20th level Wizard can't get the time of day from his equal-level lover). Now, you can "fix" that by saying "I'll ignore them in cases where it doesn't really matter to make it come out the way that seems right", but then you've got a problem: the DM is simply calling whether it works or not. The rule is now a very long way to say "If the DM wants the deal to go through, it goes through; if the DM does not want the deal to go through, it doesn't go through unless you can make a very difficult skill check". The Giant's Diplomacy rules are merely broken differently than the Core ones.


I would just like to remind those participating in this discussion that you can in fact specify characteristics of that which you bind. Assuming you have realized the implications of this pact, you can simply wish for an Efreeti who is not part of it.
It's not necessarily a single pact; that's just the simplest way to think of it. There's an arbitrary number of them (2 Efreeti per pact would technically suffice, groups of 10 or more would seem common), and there's other ways to avoid Planar Binding when you have Wish available (Crafted Contingent Spells are technically items, from a creation standpoint, and suitable for Wishing up... and a Contingent Wish gets to ignore local conditions when moving critters... such as that Dimensional Anchor you applied to the Efreeti you were binding).

jiriku
2010-06-09, 06:01 PM
The rule is now a very long way to say "If the DM wants the deal to go through, it goes through; if the DM does not want the deal to go through, it doesn't go through unless you can make a very difficult check".

There is very little in D&D that cannot be described with that statement.

As for those who are concerned about wish abuse, consider the following: advance the efreet, noble djinn, and planetar to 21 HD. Establish this as the base forms of the creatures. Now is not not possible for anyone to summon up a wish machine with anything less than a gate spell. Rule that no one is willing to provide mid-level adventurers with access to the gate spell for fear of enabling a power-mad attempt at an infinite wish spiral. Suddenly, planar binding is not so bad, eh?

tyckspoon
2010-06-09, 06:39 PM
Suddenly, planar binding is not so bad, eh?

Well.. yes, it is. Because you can still use it to acquire an extraplanar brute squad for a week and a half before you set out on that dungeon delve/tower raid/whatever, and you can still use it to get a positive-energy creature to follow you around healing you in case you *still* haven't acquired a negligibly-expensive source of healing by that point, and you can still use it to get a small army of Imps to Commune for you so you can learn about whatever the hell you want.. Wish use/abuse is merely the flashiest application of Calling effects. It's not the only or even the major reason they're broken.

Shhalahr Windrider
2010-06-09, 07:04 PM
It's not necessarily a single pact; that's just the simplest way to think of it.
Yeah, well change the condition from “An efreeti not part of the Binding Defense Pact” to “An efreeti not part of any sort of binding defense pact.”

Maerok
2010-06-09, 07:10 PM
What is this Tippy-verse I keep hearing about?

Jack_Simth
2010-06-09, 07:25 PM
What is this Tippy-verse I keep hearing about?A though experiment by... I think he got banned ... forum member by the name of Emporer Tippy (I may have the spelling wrong). Basically, abuse the trap-making rules in the DMG and Permanent spells to create a utopia... for it's spellcasting overlords, anyway.

Create Food and Water Trap: Who needs farming?
The Assassin Game: Lots of people sign up. You sign up either as an Assassin, or a target. Each Assassin is assigned to a Target who has a comperable score. The Assassin attempts to kill the target. The Target attempts to avoid getting killed by the Assassin (and maybe kills the Assassin). Players are rated by success, collateral damage, and the like. XP factory.
True Resurrection trap: For the losers of the Assassin game (and everyone else).
Fabricate Trap: Mass-Manufacture of goods
Permanancied Teleportation Circles: Mass transit.

... and so on. Basically, magic used efficiently to build a merchant empire. As originally postulated, it was quite an evil empire (Mind-control any dissenters, pre-emptively murder rogues so they don't destroy the traps, mind-control and farm casters to build it all, mind-control or murder any local government interference during the building stage ... oh yes, and simple taxation was considered interference... responding to simple business competition with destruction of infrastructure and mind-controlling of the competitor, and so on). It's possible to make a not-evil version of the Tippyverse (it's not even hard, really), but the original as postulated was Evil... although I was unable to convince ET of that.


Yeah, well change the condition from “An efreeti not part of the Binding Defense Pact” to “An efreeti not part of any sort of binding defense pact.”
And you get a little itty bitty baby Efreeti, too young to grant Wishes. Because a lot of other Wizards thought of that too, and so the only ones left that are not protected against such things are those that are either too young for it to matter, or are already Bound.

Maerok
2010-06-09, 07:29 PM
Well that reminds me a little of this (http://www.viceland.com/blogs/uk-games/2010/05/10/the-totalitarian-buddhist-who-beat-sim-city/). Totalitarian design.

Prodan
2010-06-09, 07:33 PM
And you get a little itty bitty baby Efreeti, too young to grant Wishes.
Is the Efreeti's SLA dependent on HD?

I ask for purely selfish and egotistical reasons.

Starbuck_II
2010-06-09, 07:42 PM
Is the Efreeti's SLA dependent on HD?

I ask for purely selfish and egotistical reasons.

No, Jack is joking or houseruling.

Prodan
2010-06-09, 07:46 PM
Then I am amused. For purely selfish and egotistical reasons, of course.

Jack_Simth
2010-06-09, 07:53 PM
No, Jack is joking or houseruling.
Almost no creatures in the MM have a listed "Baby" form, and the Efreeti notably doesn't have such a form. So you've got a few choices on Efreeti:

1) They're semi-randomly "born" as adults out of the essence of their home plane.
2) They're created as adults by some other being(s).
3) They have a reproductive/developmental cycle, and thus, have baby/child/adolescent forms that you'll need to create.
4) There exist a specific number of Efreeti, and every killed Efreeti permanently reduces that number.

Shhalahr Windrider
2010-06-09, 07:57 PM
And you get a little itty bitty baby Efreeti, too young to grant Wishes. Because a lot of other Wizards thought of that too, and so the only ones left that are not protected against such things are those that are either too young for it to matter, or are already Bound.
Hey, if there are some adults already bound, then it already worked for some wizards. Who says the multiverse is so old that one of those wizards can’t be you?

Further: I’m bet that, as with humans, there’s a sucker efreeti born every minute, and those suckers grow up eventually. They can’t all be bound. Okay, maybe, it’s not exactly every minute, as they have a +4 Wis bonus, but I’m sure the sucker efreet are a tad more common than Level 11+ sorcerers and wizards. At least, given what the DMG tells us about class and level demographics. :smalltongue:

Jack_Simth
2010-06-09, 08:04 PM
Hey, if there are some adults already bound, then it already worked for some wizards. Who says the multiverse is so old that one of those wizards can’t be you?

Remember my basic premise (it's upthread a ways), and the realize that the DM, as part of world-building, gets to decide how old the multiverse is at his table.


Further: I’m bet that, as with humans, there’s a sucker efreeti born every minute, and those suckers grow up eventually. They can’t all be bound. Okay, maybe, it’s not exactly every minute, as they have a +4 Wis bonus, but I’m sure the sucker efreet are a tad more common than Level 11+ sorcerers and wizards. At least, given what the DMG tells us about class and level demographics. :smalltongue:
In the super-majority of cases, a human is taught to walk, talk, eat, and so on, long before the human is capable of lifting 100 pounds. For a creature type that has a listed hatred of servitude, and that makes a very tempting target for various forms of slavers, why wouldn't basic slavery-avoidance strategies be taught prior to the "adult" (Wish-capable) state?

Shhalahr Windrider
2010-06-09, 08:25 PM
Remember my basic premise (it's upthread a ways), and the realize that the DM, as part of world-building, gets to decide how old the multiverse is at his table.
Or how young, as the case may be. As with pretty much everything else said in this thread, it will vary from campaign to campaign.


In the super-majority of cases, a human is taught to walk, talk, eat, and so on, long before the human is capable of lifting 100 pounds. For a creature type that has a listed hatred of servitude, and that makes a very tempting target for various forms of slavers, why wouldn't basic slavery-avoidance strategies be taught prior to the "adult" (Wish-capable) state?
Oh, yeah, just like most humans are tought to brush their teeth at an early age. Doesn’t mean every adult has perfect dental hygeine. Find a slacker efreeti, or one that is anti-social and has no friends with which to form a pact, and you’ll have an easy target.

Prodan
2010-06-09, 08:26 PM
People walk even without training.

Jack_Simth
2010-06-09, 08:34 PM
Or how young, as the case may be. As with pretty much everything else said in this thread, it will vary from campaign to campaign.


Oh, yeah, just like most humans are tought to brush their teeth at an early age. Doesn’t mean every adult has perfect dental hygeine. Find a slacker efreeti, or one that is anti-social and has no friends with which to form a pact, and you’ll have an easy target.In which case, you're basically looking for what is pretty much a unique Efreeti, that no other Wizard has already perma-bound. Which means you need to do some hefty research ... and it will be difficult, as other wizards have already combed over your sources with the same basic goal. But if you pour enough resources into it, yes, you can arrange to get a few Wishes. Once or twice.

Or would you really prefer that your opponents do the same thing?

olentu
2010-06-09, 09:21 PM
In which case, you're basically looking for what is pretty much a unique Efreeti, that no other Wizard has already perma-bound. Which means you need to do some hefty research ... and it will be difficult, as other wizards have already combed over your sources with the same basic goal. But if you pour enough resources into it, yes, you can arrange to get a few Wishes. Once or twice.

Or would you really prefer that your opponents do the same thing?

Pff by your own argument if there is a percentage of efreeti that are antisocial there are as many as one could wish. The DM could of course say there are a finite number of efreeti that are antisocial but by that same token the same could be said about any other particular type of efreeti including those in a defense pact.

Gametime
2010-06-09, 11:20 PM
4) There exist a specific number of Efreeti, and every killed Efreeti permanently reduces that number.

I apologize if my math is wrong, but isn't infinity minus a finite number still infinity?

Or does option 4 presume that the infinite population of Efreeti is not the case?

awa
2010-06-10, 12:00 AM
genies are not stupid i dont think it would be long before those not in some kind of pact realised they were being targeted by specificaly be wizards and joined a pact also i dont buy infinity genies until i see a source specificaly saying they are endless in numbers.

edit also a quick glance does not seem to indicate you have a tremendous amount of control over the specifics of the creature summoned. just the "The kind of creature to be bound must be known and stated." That does not seem to me to indicate the abbility to grab one thats a complete lonner with no freinds that would worry about him and possible make an effort to save him.

AstralFire
2010-06-10, 12:11 AM
I think 'emo whiner efreeti' would work in that case. :smallyuk:

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-06-10, 12:22 AM
also i dont buy infinity genies until i see a source specificaly saying they are endless in numbers.

All non-Prime planes are infinite in scope and have infinite inhabitants from the perspective of Primes, by Planescape canon; whether that's actually the case or whether planes simply expand and contract as needed and the number of a given outsider is merely "really really really freaking huge" is left somewhat vague in the expansions.

Starbuck_II
2010-06-10, 06:59 AM
People walk even without training.

But they don't talkright sadly. Too many cases where a child without human interaction can't speak right have arisen.

Jack_Simth
2010-06-10, 07:08 AM
I apologize if my math is wrong, but isn't infinity minus a finite number still infinity?

Or does option 4 presume that the infinite population of Efreeti is not the case?
When you have multiple infinite planes interacting with each other, the density of efreeti can go down due to murder, even if the total number is statically at infinity. ESPECIALLY when a percentage of the population of one or more of the infinite planes has the ability to grab members of the other regardless of location. And depending on the relative magnitude of infinities, one could potentially wipe out the other, even.


Pff by your own argument if there is a percentage of efreeti that are antisocial there are as many as one could wish. The DM could of course say there are a finite number of efreeti that are antisocial but by that same token the same could be said about any other particular type of efreeti including those in a defense pact.
Hint: The purpose of nixing Planar Binding in this manner is to prevent players from abusing the spell for neigh-infinite power. I'm looking at things from the perspective of a DM.


genies are not stupid i dont think it would be long before those not in some kind of pact realised they were being targeted by specificaly be wizards and joined a pact
Pretty much. Oh yes, and if someone else got the idea before you did, that means there pretty much aren't any unbound Efreeti that do not have protection from Planar Binding in one form or another.

also i dont buy infinity genies until i see a source specificaly saying they are endless in numbers.

So you don't like my quick proof from earlier, eh? Oh well.


I think 'emo whiner efreeti' would work in that case. :smallyuk:
If "Emo whiner" is a kind, does that mean an Emo Whiner Wizard can be in a Polymorph Any Object state longer because he specifies that the "Kind" of the creature he's turning into is also an Emo Whiner?

AstralFire
2010-06-10, 10:29 AM
Jack?

It was a joke. RAW shenanigans that aren't for humor bore me.

Shhalahr Windrider
2010-06-10, 03:22 PM
In which case, you're basically looking for what is pretty much a unique Efreeti, that no other Wizard has already perma-bound.
Then the people in your neck of the woods must be eminently responsible and social and practice better dental hygiene if such traits are so common you can only conceive of a being lacking in of those criteria as being “pretty much unique.”


Hint: The purpose of nixing Planar Binding in this manner is to prevent players from abusing the spell for neigh-infinite power. I'm looking at things from the perspective of a DM.
Then you might want to use a better argument, or it may appear to the players that you are being arbitrary. That you’re arguing at all indicates that you are already willing to play in an overly RAW manner already.

Personally, I’d just shut down the path we’ve been going already by making sure “kind” is definitely more broad. So you can use planar binding to be very broad (“an efreeti”) or absurdly specific, by which I mean a named creature, as per the spell. But not “any antisocial efreeti.” So if we really want to play here, trying to bind an efreeti would give us a, say, 90% chance of it being in a pact. Pretty good odds for the efreeti, I guess.


genies are not stupid i dont think it would be long before those not in some kind of pact realised they were being targeted by specificaly be wizards and joined a pact
There’s more to a being’s behavior than its intelligence. People do things that they know for a fact are neglectful, risky, or even immediately harmful. They know they’d be much better off if they didn’t engage in such behavior, but they do it anyways.

And lets face it: Are there enough wizards out there binding efree on absurd terms that it will pose a direct threat to every one of them? This sounds to me like one of those “Oh, it happened to Bob, but it can’t happen to me” type things.

olentu
2010-06-10, 03:43 PM
Hint: The purpose of nixing Planar Binding in this manner is to prevent players from abusing the spell for neigh-infinite power. I'm looking at things from the perspective of a DM.

That is great but if that is the case then you should probably note that many players like reasonable consistent arguments and so if one is going to make an argument then it should be quite carefully considered before dismissing the same argument when it works against its creator. To dismiss it out of hand can make the original ruling seem arbitrary and without value and gives a record of inconsistency.

Starbuck_II
2010-06-10, 04:50 PM
And lets face it: Are there enough wizards out there binding efree on absurd terms that it will pose a direct threat to every one of them? This sounds to me like one of those “Oh, it happened to Bob, but it can’t happen to me” type things.

You have too much faith in the good will of Efreets. (pretty sure they are evil)

The above statement applies tro humanity many times. And we are neutral (in D&D).

Shhalahr Windrider
2010-06-10, 05:51 PM
You have too much faith in the good will of Efreets. (pretty sure they are evil)
Good will? What’s good will in that? That’s apathy overriding reasonable caution.


The above statement applies tro humanity many times. And we are neutral (in D&D).
Alignment has very little to do with what is basically laziness.

awa
2010-06-10, 07:44 PM
but its so easy to be part of a pact you just say if im grabbed by a mortal help me and ill do the same in a similar situation. Or has been pointed out a magic item of dimensional lock that's like take a minute and be protected for life

Shhalahr Windrider
2010-06-10, 07:53 PM
but its so easy to be part of a pact you just say if im grabbed by a mortal help me and ill do the same in a similar situation.
But how do they know you are grabbed by a mortal? You gotta have a check in system and all that jazz. Kinda simple, but still requires effort.

I’m not saying all efreet are lazy. Just the ones that are most likely to have something happen to them.

ScionoftheVoid
2010-06-11, 01:31 PM
And we are neutral (in D&D).

In D&D we are overall equally Good, Evil, Lawful, Chaotic and Neutral (either of the axes). Humans tend toward no alignment, Neutral is an alignment. Therefore humans are not, overall, Neutral.[/Nitpick]

Carry on with your thread people, sorry for the interruption.

Edit: If a player is willing to spend in- and out-of-character time enough to plan and execute an infinite Wish chain I'd probably let them. There are easier ways than this anyway. I believe it is possible at about level three with Summon Mirror Mephit. Create a Simulacrum of an Efreeti and use one wish of each set for a component-free Simulacrum spell to get a stupidly high number of Wishes and powerful bodyguards. If I remember correctly anyway.

Dingle
2010-06-12, 04:51 PM
Do, by RAW, the effreeti (and not the wizard) use the wish?
and if they do, can they pick the interpretation of the wish, if it is in any way ambiguous? (generally giving the most evil interpretation)
and if they can, would you agree from the wish twisting thread, that it isn't impossible even for a non-professional to twist most wishes?

Do I have a point?

also, if I don't, does anyone run or play a game where all (or almost all) wishes granted by effreeti are twisted?

(if it were involuntary, it could stop them from using thier wishes from ruling the universe, as bad stuff consistently happens to thier wish reading slaves)