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Eloi
2010-06-07, 09:48 PM
If you know any template with negative LA that you can provide the crunch for, it'd be much appreciated. Thanks. :smallsmile:

Defiant
2010-06-07, 09:54 PM
Find 20 of them, and you can start out as a Level 20 Wizard from ECL 1 :smallsmile:

Eloi
2010-06-07, 09:56 PM
Find 20 of them, and you can start out as a Level 20 Wizard from ECL 1 :smallsmile:

Well, I wanted other people to find them because I've been up and down the Hypertext SRD and have found nothing.

Milskidasith
2010-06-07, 09:58 PM
Well, I wanted other people to find them because I've been up and down the Hypertext SRD and have found nothing.

Incarnate Construct, I believe.

There aren't negative LA templates for a reason; they're broken. Also, the SRD only has core stuff.

flabort
2010-06-07, 09:59 PM
well, there is none there, of course. you'd need splat books for that kind of broken. can't get it "officially", unfortunately.

Alleine
2010-06-07, 09:59 PM
There is, I believe, only one negative LA template in the entirety of WotC books, and that is Incarnate Construct from Savage Species.

You'll have to look at 3rd party sources if you want anything useful.

Eloi
2010-06-07, 09:59 PM
Incarnate Construct, I believe.

There aren't negative LA templates for a reason; they're broken. Also, the SRD only has core stuff.

What's the crunch for the Incarnate Construct? My Google-fu is failing me.

Kaulesh
2010-06-07, 10:02 PM
There's always Crystal Keep's Template list. (http://crystalkeep.com/d20/index.php) I'm currently downloading it to scan for negative LA classes, but I've got an extremely slow connection.

Alleine
2010-06-07, 10:04 PM
What's the crunch for the Incarnate Construct? My Google-fu is failing me.

Posting non-OGL content is illegal.

The gist of it is that you take a construct, and remove all the benefits of it being a construct except for its strength. The -2 LA is almost worthless in this case, as there are a scant handful of constructs that have anything other than LA: -

balistafreak
2010-06-07, 10:05 PM
You start as a Construct. You lose all that Construct goodness (no seriously, Construct immunities are really awesome) and get -2 LA. Feel free to take +2 LA worth of brokenness to assuage your keen lack of Construct immunities.

(Alternatively, proceed to become undead to regain most of them. :smallwink:)

The problem I've found is that there are very few Constructs worth it. Most of them have RHD, which are NOT adjusted - and even 2 RHD is almost mechanically identical to +2 LA, unlike 1 RHD which is almost mechanically identical to +0 LA. To say nothing of actual LA stacked on top of RHD.

The only "broken" choice I've found would be applying Incarnate Construct to a Warforged (which is 1 RHD and +0 LA), and there's some argument against that - a Warforged is a "Living Construct", not a "Construct".

The only real choice I've found is the Maug from Fiend Folio (I think), and that's still not that great. You get some hilarious attribute modifiers (+10 STR :D, in addition to a few other random pumps) and Large size, but you're still basically +3 LA - 2 RHD and still +1 LA (Maug has +3 normally). It's not terrible if you can buy-off the +1 LA, but it still hurts. Also, you basically have to be ToB class or else keenly feel those RHD forever. (ToB's system of half-initiator levels is awesome.)

blackmage5242
2010-06-07, 10:24 PM
Or be a Dustform Orc Incarnate Construct.
Dustform is from Sandstorm and is a LA +2 Template that makes turns you into a construct.

You will be getting +8 Str and +3 NA, without the light sensitivity, for LA +0.
Of course you also get -2 Int, -2 Wis and -2 Cha, but that shouldn't matter much for the bonus that you are getting.

Eloi
2010-06-07, 10:34 PM
So you take a Warforged (+2 Con -2 Wis -2 Cha) (+2 armor bonus, 5% arcane armor fail), take away their immunities by applying the Incarnate Construct template by casting the same spell, bringing their LA to -2, add Lolth Touched which brings the LA to -1, (+6 Str, + 6 Con), +4 racial bonus to hide/move silently, immunity to fear. By now you have to be Chaotic Evil. Then you apply the Half Minotaur template on to the Lolth Touched Warforged, which gives you +4 STR, +2 CON, -4 INT, -4 CHA, + 1 natural armor bonus, and a 1d8 natural weapon (gore).
Dragonborn have +2 Charisma, +2 Strength. + 2 racial bonus to Intimidate and Knowledge (history). They have an LA of +0.
So I bring you: The Lolth-Touched Warforged Half-Minotaur Dragonborn Incarnate Construct.
You could also apply a Necropolitan template, but that complicates the LA.

The Lolth Touched Warforged Half-Minotaur Dragonborn Incarnate Construct
LA: 0
[+10 Con, +12 Str, -4 Cha, -2 Wis]
+3 natural armor bonus
+ 4 racial bonus to hide/move silently
+2 racial bonus to Intimidate and Knowledge (history)
Immunity to fear.

That's kind of broken, methinks.

HunterOfJello
2010-06-07, 10:37 PM
Warforged cannot take the Incarnate Construct template. Warforged are Living Constructs already and do not qualify for the template.

Eloi
2010-06-07, 10:41 PM
Warforged cannot take the Incarnate Construct template. Warforged are Living Constructs already and do not qualify for the template.

Can they die and be raised as an Incarnate Construct?

chiasaur11
2010-06-07, 10:50 PM
Warforged cannot take the Incarnate Construct template. Warforged are Living Constructs already and do not qualify for the template.

Which is good.

I mean, it would be horrible if something was broken in DnD.

Milskidasith
2010-06-07, 10:53 PM
So you take a Warforged (+2 Con -2 Wis -2 Cha) (+2 armor bonus, 5% arcane armor fail), take away their immunities by applying the Incarnate Construct template by casting the same spell, bringing their LA to -2, add Lolth Touched which brings the LA to -1, (+6 Str, + 6 Con), +4 racial bonus to hide/move silently, immunity to fear. By now you have to be Chaotic Evil. Then you apply the Half Minotaur template on to the Lolth Touched Warforged, which gives you +4 STR, +2 CON, -4 INT, -4 CHA, + 1 natural armor bonus, and a 1d8 natural weapon (gore).
Dragonborn have +2 Charisma, +2 Strength. + 2 racial bonus to Intimidate and Knowledge (history). They have an LA of +0.
So I bring you: The Lolth-Touched Warforged Half-Minotaur Dragonborn Incarnate Construct.
You could also apply a Necropolitan template, but that complicates the LA.

The Lolth Touched Warforged Half-Minotaur Dragonborn Incarnate Construct
LA: 0
[+10 Con, +12 Str, -4 Cha, -2 Wis]
+3 natural armor bonus
+ 4 racial bonus to hide/move silently
+2 racial bonus to Intimidate and Knowledge (history)
Immunity to fear.

That's kind of broken, methinks.

You are missing something here:

Half Minotaur *also* makes it so that you get bigger and get the typical stat increases for that. Going from medium to large is an additional +8 str, -2 dex, +4 con, and +2 NA.

Alleine
2010-06-07, 10:54 PM
Their subtype is "Living Construct". Just as a fire elemental has the Fire subtype.

I'd leave whether or not warforged qualify up to the DM though, considering how broken it can be. The exact wording of Incarnate Construct is that it is "an acquired template that can be applied to any construct creature with a generally humanoid form"

Eloi
2010-06-07, 10:55 PM
You are missing something here:

Half Minotaur *also* makes it so that you get bigger and get the typical stat increases for that. Going from medium to large is an additional +8 str, -2 dex, +4 con, and +2 NA.

So that makes:
[+10 Con, +12 Str, -4 Cha, -2 Wis]
+3 natural armor bonus

Into:
[+14 Con, +20 Str, -4 Cha, -2 Wis -2 Dex]
+5 natural armor bonus

Wow, thats pretty broken.



Their subtype is "Living Construct". Just as a fire elemental has the Fire subtype.

I'd leave whether or not warforged qualify up to the DM though, considering how broken it can be. The exact wording of Incarnate Construct is that it is "an acquired template that can be applied to any construct creature with a generally humanoid form"

Well, if we are to be Attorneys at Rules for our broken build, I'd say Warforged qualifies under that wording.

Kaulesh
2010-06-07, 11:02 PM
I found a template in one of my books that turns living creatures into constructs. Can't remember which book, though. I wonder if you could apply it to a Warforged, then apply Incarnate Construct.

Edit: From CArc.

After reading, I see that it won't work. Effigy may only be applied to corporeal aberrations, animals, dragons, giants, humanoids, magical beasts, monstrous humanoids, or vermin. The warforged fluff calls them constructs.

Eloi
2010-06-07, 11:05 PM
@Kaulesh: That'd probably help explain the amount of Non-Construct organic templates on our character, thanks for that. ^_^

What's bothering me is the -4 Cha, -2 Wis -2 Dex.
Let's try to fix that.

Naiads have -2 Str, but +4 Cha, +2 Wis, +4 Cha.

The Lolth Touched Warforged Half-Minotaur Dragonborn Incarnate Construct Naiad has a:

[+14 Con, +18 Str]

Thus, no negatives, and an LA of 0.

Eloi
2010-06-07, 11:16 PM
Well here's some more options we can add to our template:

Reika (+2 Str)
Ulster (+2 Con)
Vorpal Ranger (+8 Str, +10 Con, -8 Int, -6 Wis, -3 Cha)
Ogrillions (+8 Str, +6 Con, -6 Int, -6 Cha -4 Cha)
Nietzscheans (+2 Str)
Siroc (+2 Wis)
Felidae (+2 Dex, +4 Cha, -4 Wis)

(+20 Str, +18 Con, -8 Wis, -3 Cha)


The Lolth Touched Warforged Half-Minotaur Dragonborn Incarnate Construct Reika Ulster Vorapl Ranger Ogrillion Nietzchean Siroc Felidae Naiad has a:

[+32 Con, +38 Str, -8 Wis, -3 Cha]
LA: 0

The Glyphstone
2010-06-07, 11:25 PM
Warforged are Construct (Living Construct), so by RAW, they do qualify for Incarnate Construct. It's absurd cheese though, so player beware.

Eloi
2010-06-07, 11:29 PM
The Lolth Touched Warforged Half-Minotaur Dragonborn Incarnate Construct Reika Ulster Vorapl Ranger Ogrillion Nietzchean Siroc Felidae Naiad has a:

[+32 Con, +38 Str, -8 Wis, -3 Cha]
LA: 0

But -8 Wis, -3 Cha is kinda bad isn't it?
Lets add an Anarch with +2 Wis +2 Cha -2 Str -2 Con.
And an Allurin with +2 Cha.
Aroghin makes up for the Str lost with +2 Str.

So we have:
[+30 Con, +38 Str, +1 Cha, -8 Wis].

Now how do we recover the Wisdom?

Fey (Tears of Smoke) +2 Cha, +4 Con
Half Dijini +2 Int, +2 Wis, -2 Cha
Highbourne +2 Wis, +2 Cha, -2 Int
Korrigan +2 Wis, +2 Cha, -2 Str
Kataran +2 Wis, +2 Dex, -2 Con, -2 Cha

(+8 Wis, +2 Cha, -2 Str, +2 Con) <---not sure if I did the math correctly.

So then our new totals for our The Lolth Touched Warforged Half-Minotaur Dragonborn Incarnate Construct Reika Ulster Vorpal Ranger Ogrillion Nietzchean Siroc Felidae Naiad Fey (ToS) Half-Dijini Highbourne Korrigan Kataran has a:
[+32 Con, +36 Str +3 Cha]


And a LA of 0!

Marriclay
2010-06-07, 11:34 PM
[+32 Con, +36 Str +3 Cha]


And a LA of 0!

OH GODS! IT'S HORRIBLE!

AstralFire
2010-06-07, 11:35 PM
The Cheese Is Strong With This One.

Marriclay
2010-06-07, 11:38 PM
and you know what else we should do? Take a flaw so that it has both feat slots it needs to take Trollblooded, making it this monstrosity And giving it regeneration

Hendel
2010-06-07, 11:43 PM
So then our new totals for our The Lolth Touched Warforged Half-Minotaur Dragonborn Incarnate Construct Reika Ulster Vorpal Ranger Ogrillion Nietzchean Siroc Felidae Naiad Fey (ToS) Half-Dijini Highbourne Korrigan Kataran has a:
[+32 Con, +36 Str +3 Cha]


And a LA of 0!

My head hurts so much...

Defiant
2010-06-07, 11:44 PM
What the heck just happened there???

Eloi
2010-06-07, 11:45 PM
What the heck just happened there???

Min-maxing using LA+0 templates and taking a LA-2 template for +2 LA leniency to give birth to this...thing.
I'm not familiar with "Trollblooded" but making it part-Troll would ruin its 0 LA.

Alleine
2010-06-07, 11:45 PM
Well here's some more options we can add to our template:

Reika (+2 Str)
Ulster (+2 Con)
Vorpal Ranger (+8 Str, +10 Con, -8 Int, -6 Wis, -3 Cha)
Ogrillions (+8 Str, +6 Con, -6 Int, -6 Cha -4 Cha)
Nietzscheans (+2 Str)
Siroc (+2 Wis)
Felidae (+2 Dex, +4 Cha, -4 Wis)

Where are all of these from?

AstralFire
2010-06-07, 11:47 PM
Truthfully, I don't understand how that's an LA of 0 since not all of those are LA 0 templates. ... Are they?

Eloi
2010-06-07, 11:49 PM
Where are all of these from?

Oi, D&D wiki, I do believe some of them are homebrew, but

[+14 Con, +20 Str, -4 Cha, -2 Wis -2 Dex]
+5 natural armor bonus

is already ridiculous, anything compounded to that is just for exaggerated point of the ineffectiveness of LA.

And yep all +0 LA according to this: http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/LA_0_Races

Marriclay
2010-06-07, 11:51 PM
Min-maxing using LA+0 templates and taking a LA-2 template for +2 LA leniency to give birth to this...thing.
I'm not familiar with "Trollblooded" but making it part-Troll would ruin its 0 LA.

Actually, it's just a feat. The only requirements are that you take toughness and take it at first level. It gives you Regeneration 1 in exchange for getting fatigued in direct sunlight. Made me some very fun warrior type characters, and some very broken cheese

AstralFire
2010-06-07, 11:54 PM
Oi, D&D wiki, I do believe some of them are homebrew, but

[+14 Con, +20 Str, -4 Cha, -2 Wis -2 Dex]
+5 natural armor bonus

is already ridiculous, anything compounded to that is just for exaggerated point of the ineffectiveness of LA.

And yep all +0 LA according to this: http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/LA_0_Races

Oh. D&D wiki.

Okay, everything makes sense again.

Impressive bit of work, but... um. Not the best site. For. Well.

Anything.

Eloi
2010-06-07, 11:57 PM
Actually, it's just a feat. The only requirements are that you take toughness and take it at first level. It gives you Regeneration 1 in exchange for getting fatigued in direct sunlight. Made me some very fun warrior type characters, and some very broken cheese

Mmm I love the smell of broken cheese in the morning. Okay, lets take the flaw Frail* for the feat Toughness and apply Trollblooded. now we have Regenration and +3 hit points.



*Subtract 1 from the number of hit points you gain at each level. This flaw can reduce the number of hit points you gain to 0 (but not below). Kind of a moot point with the crazy high CON are Monster has.

Alleine
2010-06-07, 11:57 PM
Oh. D&D wiki.

Okay, everything makes sense again.

Impressive bit of work, but... um. Not the best site. For. Well.

Anything.

My sentiments exactly. Every time I see someone link to a homebrew from there, it seems that the creator had everything except balance in mind.

senrath
2010-06-07, 11:57 PM
Also, I don't think most of those are templates, but rather base races.

Milskidasith
2010-06-07, 11:57 PM
Yeah, all of D&D wiki's templates are terrible; for example, the one that gave +100 wisdom for 5 LA. And even if you're using a crapload of terribly unbalanced LA 0 templates... most of those are actually terribly unbalanced LA 0 races so they don't stack.

Eloi
2010-06-07, 11:58 PM
Oh. D&D wiki.

Okay, everything makes sense again.

Impressive bit of work, but... um. Not the best site. For. Well.

Anything.

We're just being silly, the main build is core, the rest is to be ridiculous.

Eloi
2010-06-08, 12:01 AM
This is the main build up for criticism:


The Lolth Touched Warforged Half-Minotaur Dragonborn Incarnate Construct
[+14 Con, +20 Str, -4 Cha, -2 Wis -2 Dex]
+5 natural armor bonus

The rest again, is to have silly amount of +X ability bonuses.

Marriclay
2010-06-08, 12:01 AM
We're just being silly, the main build is core, the rest is to be ridiculous.

yep. then we make it a full casting DMM persist cleric, since it has no LA. bonus points if we bring this aberrant amalgam of rules to a gestalt game

Eloi
2010-06-08, 12:04 AM
yep. then we make it a full casting DMM persist cleric, since it has no LA. bonus points if we bring this aberrant amalgam of rules to a gestalt game

Not familiar with that class, but it sounds broken, so lets make it the class for our Muddleblooded Living Construct.

AstralFire
2010-06-08, 12:04 AM
yep. then we make it a full casting DMM persist cleric, since it has no LA. bonus points if we bring this aberrant amalgam of rules to a gestalt game

Gestalt is practically begging for Psion or Wizard//Factotum, with no Int penalty.

Temotei
2010-06-08, 12:12 AM
The Lolth Touched Warforged Half-Minotaur Dragonborn Incarnate Construct
[+14 Con, +20 Str, -4 Cha, -2 Wis -2 Dex]
+5 natural armor bonus

Illegal. :smallamused:

Milskidasith
2010-06-08, 12:16 AM
Illegal. :smallamused:

Actually not. Warforged is a construct type, living construct subtype. It's valid, but cheesy.

Eloi
2010-06-08, 12:27 AM
Welcome to Rules-Court. The Prosecution takes the stand.

The Prosecution: OBJECTION!

Illegal. :smallamused:

The defense calls Milskidasith to the stand.

Actually not. Warforged is a construct type, living construct subtype. It's valid, but cheesy.

The defense rests.

Tytalus
2010-06-08, 04:49 AM
This is the main build up for criticism:


The Lolth Touched Warforged Half-Minotaur Dragonborn Incarnate Construct
[+14 Con, +20 Str, -4 Cha, -2 Wis -2 Dex]
+5 natural armor bonus

The rest again, is to have silly amount of +X ability bonuses.

It doesn't work like that. Half-minotaur cannot be added to a construct, so it has to be added after applying Incarnate Construct. Thus, you don't get around its LA. Lolth-touched works, though.

Incarnate Construct is "LA: -2 (minimum 0)", so once you apply it, your LA is no less than 0; everything that comes afterward counts normally.

Gnorman
2010-06-08, 06:41 AM
Also, you're applying 4e Dragonborn stat modifiers. 3.5 is +2 CON, -2 DEX.

kamikasei
2010-06-08, 06:52 AM
Gestalt is practically begging for Psion or Wizard//Factotum, with no Int penalty.

It seems that a -14 Int penalty simply disappeared in this post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8651568&postcount=21). It's possible some other element of the build cancelled it out, but I see only additional penalties in the templates listed before that.

Eloi
2010-06-08, 06:59 AM
It seems that a -14 Int penalty simply disappeared in this post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8651568&postcount=21). It's possible some other element of the build cancelled it out, but I see only additional penalties in the templates listed before that.

*shrugs* I'm not the best with the rules, or math, or rules and math, thus I wouldn't be surprised if this build we're both completely unworkable and conflicting, I was just having fun with template-experimentation.

Set
2010-06-08, 07:13 AM
If the Warforged isn't eligible, what other ways can one become a Construct?

Dustforged?
Ice Creature?
Raggomoffyn-host?
Effigy?

I had a list of them somewhere, from ye olde days in Eberron, when I was cheesing around with the Warforged Domain (command / rebuke constructs).

Tanuki Tales
2010-06-08, 10:56 AM
Except Warforged are eligible.

The Monster Manual III lists them as Construct (Living Construct).

nedz
2010-06-08, 12:37 PM
There is the Race Xvart (from Dragon 339) which had an LA of -2
This is well deserved if you follow the favoured class [Fighter], but obviously broken if you play a single classed caster.

Vulaas
2010-06-08, 01:23 PM
Negative LA is borked, no matter what your class is, thanks to Leadership.

Milskidasith
2010-06-08, 02:25 PM
It doesn't work like that. Half-minotaur cannot be added to a construct, so it has to be added after applying Incarnate Construct. Thus, you don't get around its LA. Lolth-touched works, though.

Incarnate Construct is "LA: -2 (minimum 0)", so once you apply it, your LA is no less than 0; everything that comes afterward counts normally.

Actually, modifiers add up in the way most beneficial to the player, so the Incarnate Constructs LA would be applied after the Half Minotaurs, even if you took Half Minotaur afterwards.

hamishspence
2010-06-08, 02:32 PM
There is the Race Xvart (from Dragon 339) which had an LA of -2
This is well deserved if you follow the favoured class [Fighter], but obviously broken if you play a single classed caster.

This is not strictly correct- though I can see where people are getting the idea.

In the sample Xvart statblock, it's given LA +0.

In the text, under Challenge Rating:

"Xvarts with levels in NPC classes have a CR equal to their character level -2"

So, an 8th level Warrior, Adept, Expert, Aristocrat, or Commoner Xvart, is CR 6.

But a Xvart with class levels, is the same effective level, as a wizard, human, or other LA0 race.

Starbuck_II
2010-06-08, 02:56 PM
One drawback, Incarnate Construct says it takes away starting feats.

Eldariel
2010-06-08, 03:01 PM
This is not strictly correct- though I can see where people are getting the idea.

In the sample Xvart statblock, it's given LA +0.

In the text, under Challenge Rating:

"Xvarts with levels in NPC classes have a CR equal to their character level -2"

So, an 8th level Warrior, Adept, Expert, Aristocrat, or Commoner Xvart, is CR 6.

But a Xvart with class levels, is the same effective level, as a wizard, human, or other LA0 race.

Kobolds have the same text and people have never been confused about them... Weird.

Eloi
2010-06-08, 03:04 PM
One drawback, Incarnate Construct says it takes away starting feats.

With as high CON and STR you have, who cares?

nedz
2010-06-08, 03:29 PM
Kobolds have the same text and people have never been confused about them... Weird.
The confusion about Xvarts is possibly due to their being listed as -2 LA on the Crystal Keep. I've never bothered to investigate further, I simply banned them; though not actually for this reason - I simply did not need another humanoid race.

hamishspence
2010-06-08, 04:16 PM
That might be a more likely reason- the question is- how did Crystalkeep get the idea that they were LA-2?

Mystic Muse
2010-06-08, 05:47 PM
Technically, I don't think you can use Dragonborn and Lolth-touched on the same creature. To be a dragonborn you have to devote yourself to Bahamut and his ideals IIRC which you can't really do if you're chaotic evil.

It even says in one of the books Bahamut can take the template away if you make him mad.

Marriclay
2010-06-08, 05:49 PM
Technically, I don't think you can use Dragonborn and Lolth-touched on the same creature. To be a dragonborn you have to devote yourself to Bahamut and his ideals IIRC which you can't really do if you're chaotic evil.

It even says in one of the books Bahamut can take the template away if you make him mad.

what's the fluff for lolth-touched, though? does it specifically say she'll take it away if you piss her off?

PlzBreakMyCmpAn
2010-06-08, 05:51 PM
PBMC reporting in for fail-control


The Cheese homebrew pulled out his butt Is Strong With This One.FTFY


The Prosecution: OBJECTION!you're doing it wrong (http://objection.mrdictionary.net/go.php?n=3885073) and yes this is my admission of losing the game


listed as -2 LA on the Crystal Keep. I've never bothered to investigate further, I simply banned themsigh. Crystal keep kinda sucks people i've found tons of their mistakes.

Mystic Muse
2010-06-08, 06:08 PM
what's the fluff for lolth-touched, though? does it specifically say she'll take it away if you piss her off?

I was under the impression that if you had the Lolth touched template you had to be chaotic evil. But I don't really feel like checking that.

Eloi
2010-06-08, 09:14 PM
Technically, I don't think you can use Dragonborn and Lolth-touched on the same creature. To be a dragonborn you have to devote yourself to Bahamut and his ideals IIRC which you can't really do if you're chaotic evil.

It even says in one of the books Bahamut can take the template away if you make him mad.

Yes but Bahamut and Lolth made a pact to join their divine forces against the other gods with their new minion, the Muddy Blooded Construct.

Mystic Muse
2010-06-08, 09:20 PM
Yes but Bahamut and Lolth made a pact to join their divine forces against the other gods with their new minion, the Muddy Blooded Construct.

.......What in the nine hells convinced them to do that?

And just FYI. Anybody who answers "Asmodeus" will be eaten by Cthulhu.

Eloi
2010-06-08, 09:55 PM
.......What in the nine hells convinced them to do that?

And just FYI. Anybody who answers "Asmodeus" will be eaten by Cthulhu.

It was a part of a deal, that in return for some favors, Lolth would aid Bahamut in critical areas she can assist in against Tiamat.

Mystic Muse
2010-06-08, 09:57 PM
It was a part of a deal, that in return for some favors, Lolth would aid Bahamut in critical areas she can assist in against Tiamat.

Like bad mouthing Tiamat's Superiors in Tiamat and Lolth's weekly gossip Session?

DragoonWraith
2010-06-08, 10:00 PM
I'm utterly confident in Lolth's ability to ruin just about anyone's day. I'm just as confident, though, that she cannot be reliably trusted to do so when you want her to.

Eloi
2010-06-08, 10:06 PM
Like bad mouthing Tiamat's Superiors in Tiamat and Lolth's weekly gossip Session?
http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/8311/jokev.png

Mystic Muse
2010-06-08, 10:10 PM
http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/8311/jokev.png


Lol where'd you find that?

Eloi
2010-06-08, 10:19 PM
Lol where'd you find that?

http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/7199/explanationr.png

Mystic Muse
2010-06-08, 10:23 PM
http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/7199/explanationr.png

That's what I suspected. Are you using paint?

dextercorvia
2010-06-08, 10:24 PM
I am disturbed that you used the same torso for yourself as Lloth.

Defiant
2010-06-08, 10:25 PM
I am disturbed that you used the same torso for yourself as Lloth.

LMAO :smallbiggrin:

Eloi
2010-06-08, 10:28 PM
That's what I suspected. Are you using paint?

I'm using a frankenistian combination of Paint, Inkscape, and GIMP actually.


I am disturbed that you used the same torso for yourself as Lloth.
I actually have two torso templates that I use. Female and male, there is little variation beyond that. However, I created a representation of myself before I made Lolth, so Lolth has the same torso as me not the other way around.

Mystic Muse
2010-06-08, 10:35 PM
I'm using a frankenistian combination of Paint, Inkscape, and GIMP actually.



Ah. I just use Inkscape.

Eloi
2010-06-08, 10:36 PM
Ah. I just use Inkscape.
Any tips about comic creation? I wanted to start one but didn't know if I knew enough about the community of fan-comics to do so.

AstralFire
2010-06-08, 10:39 PM
Eloi.

We shall watch your posting career with great interest.

Certainly have made a splash in a short time.

Mystic Muse
2010-06-08, 10:39 PM
Any tips about comic creation? I wanted to start one but didn't know if I knew enough about the community of fan-comics to do so.

hmm.

1. Be satisfied with your updates. If you aren't satisfied, chances are your readers won't be either.
2. Outlines are good.
3. Make sure you check over your comic before updating. There's this one I've been meaning to fix where I accidentally copied a panel.:smallsigh:
4. Get one or two people to bounce ideas off of.

That's about all I can say.

Eloi
2010-06-08, 10:48 PM
Eloi.

We shall watch your posting career with great interest.

Certainly have made a splash in a short time.

Ha, I feel special now. Well there's a lot I'll be (hopefully) doing with my campaign setting I'm brewing, the fan comic I want to make, so much to do. :smallbiggrin:


hmm.

1. Be satisfied with your updates. If you aren't satisfied, chances are your readers won't be either.
2. Outlines are good.
3. Make sure you check over your comic before updating. There's this one I've been meaning to fix where I accidentally copied a panel.:smallsigh:
4. Get one or two people to bounce ideas off of.

That's about all I can say.
1. Hm, well I would like to have the comic so far ahead that I'm just pacing it by releasing in a certain schedule.
2. I love outlines and complicated plans! :smallbiggrin:
3. Will be sure to triple-check.
4. Hm...I'll find some people. Do you want to be one of those people?

Mystic Muse
2010-06-08, 10:53 PM
2. I love outlines and complicated plans! :smallbiggrin:
4. Hm...I'll find some people. Do you want to be one of those people?

2. I mean more like outlines on the borders of your comic. Makes things look better and more ordered. At least in my humble opinion.

4. Sure. My responses will be a little Sporadic though. My Sleeping schedule hasn't been the best lately. I also have to work on my webcomic.

Eloi
2010-06-08, 11:36 PM
2. I mean more like outlines on the borders of your comic. Makes things look better and more ordered. At least in my humble opinion.

4. Sure. My responses will be a little Sporadic though. My Sleeping schedule hasn't been the best lately. I also have to work on my webcomic.

2. Got it. :smallwink:

4. Alrighty I'll keep in touch then.

Mystic Muse
2010-06-08, 11:38 PM
Yay. Another phrase that reminds me of a song I want out of my head. (Not your fault. My brain is just evil.)

Froogleyboy
2010-06-08, 11:40 PM
Well, Ms. Eloi, You are one interesting cookie. Interesting enough to be an NPC in my game

Eloi
2010-06-08, 11:42 PM
Well, Ms. Eloi, You are one interesting cookie. Interesting enough to be an NPC in my game

Yay! What is this game and will I be role-playing myself?

Froogleyboy
2010-06-08, 11:45 PM
Yay! What is this game and will I be role-playing myself?

It's just a 3.5 game I'm running at my place. I said that because, lately, I've been using playground members as NPCs. I made a thread about it in friendly banter

Eloi
2010-06-08, 11:48 PM
It's just a 3.5 game I'm running at my place. I said that because, lately, I've been using playground members as NPCs. I made a thread about it in friendly banter

Oh, okay, thats actually not that bad of an idea. Well I usually play an optimistic Elven bard, so if you need a D&D equivalent to myself for stat-reasons, that'd be it.

Froogleyboy
2010-06-08, 11:50 PM
Oh, okay, thats actually not that bad of an idea. Well I usually play an optimistic Elven bard, so if you need a D&D equivalent to myself for stat-reasons, that'd be it.

Good to know :)

Mystic Muse
2010-06-08, 11:57 PM
If you ever feel like using me I'm usually a Paladin.

This one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133737) to be precise.

Race and Gender are irrelevant.

Froogleyboy
2010-06-09, 12:16 AM
If you ever feel like using me I'm usually a Paladin.

This one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133737) to be precise.

Race and Gender are irrelevant.

I pictured you as more of a rogue. Good to know that your a paladin, I wouldn't want to misrepresent you

Mystic Muse
2010-06-09, 12:20 AM
I pictured you as more of a rogue. Good to know that your a paladin, I wouldn't want to misrepresent you

Out of curiosity, what gave you that impression? I haven't stabbed anyone in the back have I?:smalleek:

Also, I prefer playing the Redeemer type Paladin to the inquisitor.

For Valor
2010-06-09, 12:39 AM
On the idea of LA... maybe it could be a sort of balance point for poor classes. Like, for competitive edge, the Fighter gets a +1 template every 4 or so levels. That's just an example; it won't make the fighter halfway decent, but it's an idea.

This way bards could match up to Sorcerers, and The CW Samurai might be worth something against a Dread Necromancer.

Froogleyboy
2010-06-09, 12:40 AM
Out of curiosity, what gave you that impression? I haven't stabbed anyone in the back have I?:smalleek:

Also, I prefer playing the Redeemer type Paladin to the inquisitor.

Maybe it's because of your deathstroke avatar

Mystic Muse
2010-06-09, 12:46 AM
Maybe it's because of your deathstroke avatar

Ah.

But, here's the thing. Slade isn't a Rogue. he took about ten levels in Batman.:smallbiggrin: (at least, if the cartoon is any indication)

Beorn080
2010-06-09, 01:03 AM
On the idea of LA... maybe it could be a sort of balance point for poor classes. Like, for competitive edge, the Fighter gets a +1 template every 4 or so levels. That's just an example; it won't make the fighter halfway decent, but it's an idea.

This way bards could match up to Sorcerers, and The CW Samurai might be worth something against a Dread Necromancer.

I do believe there are a few +1 templates that are nasty, and if he could save up for a +5, well, I do believe there are templates under +5 that have full casting.

Marriclay
2010-06-09, 10:48 AM
I do believe there are a few +1 templates that are nasty, and if he could save up for a +5, well, I do believe there are templates under +5 that have full casting.

There aren't a whole lot of +1 templates, but what's there are pretty crazy. Draconic? balanced, definitely, and very nice. Half-Minotaur? soooo very broken. Mineral Warrior? you get DR 8/Adamantine for a +1 LA. Wow

Eldariel
2010-06-09, 12:55 PM
There aren't a whole lot of +1 templates, but what's there are pretty crazy. Draconic? balanced, definitely, and very nice. Half-Minotaur? soooo very broken. Mineral Warrior? you get DR 8/Adamantine for a +1 LA. Wow

Well, it boils down to how LA is being handled. Draconic isn't balanced if we are assuming you have to actually lose a level for it; the benefits aren't worth missing class features and a HD. If we are assuming the Level Adjustment buyoff, on the other hand, it's fine.

Sliver
2010-06-09, 01:03 PM
If you are using homebrew from D&Dwiki, there are 3 templates that add up to LA-4...

Its_Meh
2010-07-15, 07:57 AM
Interesting thread. I won't go into the homebrewed templates, but I did notice some misconceptions.


So you take a Warforged (+2 Con -2 Wis -2 Cha) (+2 armor bonus, 5% arcane armor fail), take away their immunities by applying the Incarnate Construct template by casting the same spell, bringing their LA to -2

Unfortunately, this is incorrect. Setting aside the fact that Incarnate Construct is meant for taking a non-level adjusted construct (golems, automatons, etc) and making it into a playable race, this template was not meant for the playable race of Warforged.

Regardless, this template takes away far more than their immunities. It takes away all of their inherent attacks, special attack modes, and their special qualities. This would mean that a Incarnate Construct Warforged loses their composite plating, making them no longer eligible for the various warforged body feats.

In addition, LA does not go below 0. Applying this template to a baseline warforged simply removes the special qualities and gives nothing in return.


add Lolth Touched which brings the LA to -1, (+6 Str, + 6 Con), +4 racial bonus to hide/move silently, immunity to fear. By now you have to be Chaotic Evil.

This could easily be done, as Lolth could, for some reason, decide to bless the creature. This would make the effective LA +1, however.


Then you apply the Half Minotaur template on to the Lolth Touched Warforged, which gives you +4 STR, +2 CON, -4 INT, -4 CHA, + 1 natural armor bonus, and a 1d8 natural weapon (gore).

Again, I will have to stop you. The Half-Minotaur template is an inherited template, which means that any creature eligible for this template would have to have been that way since birth. Since warforged are not born, and the Half-Minotaur template cannot be applied to the warforged at creation (I.E. be the first template applied), then this template is an invalid selection.


Dragonborn have +2 Charisma, +2 Strength. + 2 racial bonus to Intimidate and Knowledge (history). They have an LA of +0.

I'm not sure where you are getting this template, but I will assume you are meaning to refer to the Dragonborn from Races of the Dragon, which have a different stat block than that.

This could happen, however, you become the chosen of Bahamut. If the character decided to follow the sway of Bahamut, they would lose the Lolth-Touched template, as they would no longer be favored by her.

Even then, if you somehow managed to retain the Lolth-Touched template, you'd end up losing the +4 racial bonus to hide/move silently and immunity to fear, as the template clearly state that you lose all other racial traits, as you are reborn as a dragonborn.

Incidentally, this would also remove natural armor bonuses and gore attacks from any Half-Minotaurs out there who decided to take this template, as they are racial traits.


So I bring you: The Lolth-Touched Warforged Half-Minotaur Dragonborn Incarnate Construct.
You could also apply a Necropolitan template, but that complicates the LA.

The Lolth Touched Warforged Half-Minotaur Dragonborn Incarnate Construct
LA: 0
[+10 Con, +12 Str, -4 Cha, -2 Wis]
+3 natural armor bonus
+ 4 racial bonus to hide/move silently
+2 racial bonus to Intimidate and Knowledge (history)
Immunity to fear.

That's kind of broken, methinks.

If someone let you play that, then that would indeed be broken. Otherwise, you would be able to play a Lolth Touched Incarnate Construct Warforged with a +1 LA or a Dragonborn Incarnate Construct Warforged with a +0 LA.

Morph Bark
2010-07-15, 09:05 AM
There aren't a whole lot of +1 templates, but what's there are pretty crazy. Draconic? balanced, definitely, and very nice. Half-Minotaur? soooo very broken. Mineral Warrior? you get DR 8/Adamantine for a +1 LA. Wow

Feral Mineral Warrior Half-Minotaur Lolth-Touched White Dragonspawn Incarnate Construct Warforged with all the LA+0 templates mentioned earlier, anyone?


Yes but Bahamut and Lolth made a pact to join their divine forces against the other gods with their new minion, the Muddy Blooded Construct.

Obviously the Lolth presented here is the way she was before turning evil, so she is still Chaotic Good. :smallamused:

Or, if she cannot take the template away once given, the creature was born way back then and has managed to stay alive since then. Works for an Elan or Warforged.


I'm still curious about the source of the Reika/Ulster/Vorpal Ranger/Ogrillion/Nietzchean/Siroc/Felidae/Naiad templates though.

sofawall
2010-07-15, 09:48 AM
you get DR 8/Adamantine for a +1 LA. Wow

Are you saying "wow, that's awesome...(sarcasm)" or "Wow, that's awesome!(actually believe it is powerful)"?

Ranger Mattos
2010-07-15, 09:52 AM
I'm still curious about the source of the Reika/Ulster/Vorpal Ranger/Ogrillion/Nietzchean/Siroc/Felidae/Naiad templates though.

Half of those are homebrew base races off D&D Wiki.

Lhurgyof
2010-07-15, 11:07 AM
The Xvart race has a -2 LA.

Tytalus
2010-07-15, 11:16 AM
Actually, modifiers add up in the way most beneficial to the player, so the Incarnate Constructs LA would be applied after the Half Minotaurs, even if you took Half Minotaur afterwards.

Lol, what? No.

I assume you are referring to this passage in the FAQ (note that FAQ is not RAW): "As a general guideline, whenever the rules don’t stipulate an order of operations for special effects (such as spells or special abilities), you should apply them in the order that’s most beneficial to the creature." It doesn't apply here, as LA is not a special effect.

Even it it did, the FAQ section wouldn't allow the shenanigans you suggest. The first part of it, which you chose to disregard, is essential in this case. The order of operations is clearly given in the rules. Template order is perfectly clear (as I pointed out, it doesn't work the other way around), and it's also perfectly clear how to apply the LA of each template.

After IC, your LA is 0. Anything you apply afterwards, you have to pay for.

Edit: as Its_Meh pointed out, half-minotaur is an inherited template. It can't be applied after an acquired template like IC. So basically, the two don't work together at all.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2010-07-15, 11:23 AM
Lol, what? No.

I assume you are referring to this passage in the FAQ (note that FAQ is not RAW): "As a general guideline, whenever the rules don’t stipulate an order of operations for special effects (such as spells or special abilities), you should apply them in the order that’s most beneficial to the creature." It doesn't apply here, as LA is not a special effect.

Even it it did, the FAQ section wouldn't allow the shenanigans you suggest. The first part of it, which you chose to disregard, is essential in this case. The order of operations is clearly given in the rules. Template order is perfectly clear (as I pointed out, it doesn't work the other way around), and it's also perfectly clear how to apply the LA of each template.

After IC, your LA is 0. Anything you apply afterwards, you have to pay for.

I have to agree with this: as you simply cannot apply the other templates to a construct, Incarnate Construct must be applied first. Incarnate Construct specifies that you get -2 LA (minimum 0). When the other templates hit, Incarnate Construct has to have already "resolved," if you will, leaving you at LA +0.

Tytalus
2010-07-15, 11:32 AM
Unfortunately, this is incorrect. Setting aside the fact that Incarnate Construct is meant for taking a non-level adjusted construct (golems, automatons, etc) and making it into a playable race, this template was not meant for the playable race of Warforged.


Let me just point out that that is merely your assertion.



Regardless, this template takes away far more than their immunities. It takes away all of their inherent attacks, special attack modes, and their special qualities. This would mean that a Incarnate Construct Warforged loses their composite plating, making them no longer eligible for the various warforged body feats.


The warforged body feats do not require composite plating, but rather the PC taking them being a warforged. You still qualify for them after applying IC. By RAW, at least.

It's not clear if the warforged loses its subtype in the process of acquiring IC. If it doesn't (and I can't seem to find any indication that it would), it keeps the majority of its abilities.

Lhurgyof
2010-07-15, 11:47 AM
When the other templates hit, Incarnate Construct has to have already "resolved," if you will, leaving you at LA +0.

A magic player, I presume? :smallwink:

Alleine
2010-07-15, 12:31 PM
In addition, LA does not go below 0. Applying this template to a baseline warforged simply removes the special qualities and gives nothing in return.

If this is an actual ruling(or even a sage ruling), I would appreciate you providing the source for it. That would be nice to have when the next Negative LA thread pops up.


Again, I will have to stop you. The Half-Minotaur template is an inherited template, which means that any creature eligible for this template would have to have been that way since birth.

This is interesting. Although its not really represented mechanically in the rules anywhere, meaning its fluff and therefore mutable, you are correct. The beginning of the Savage Species chapter on templates mentions that inherited templates are applied at birth. It seems like a fuzzy kind of a ruling though, or maybe thats just me thinking its stupid since you should be able to apply it on creation/first existence of a character, IMHO.

Of course, one way to get around this would be to use one of those inherited templates like Half-Celestial where it explicitly states that celestials can mate with virtually everything :smallbiggrin:

2xMachina
2010-07-15, 12:37 PM
Maybe cause you can get Celestial ANYTHING. (except evils)

Half celestial Dire Bat?
Cause there is a Celestial Dire Bat around.

Morph Bark
2010-07-15, 12:57 PM
I have to agree with this: as you simply cannot apply the other templates to a construct, Incarnate Construct must be applied first. Incarnate Construct specifies that you get -2 LA (minimum 0). When the other templates hit, Incarnate Construct has to have already "resolved," if you will, leaving you at LA +0.

Then the solution would be to have those templates "hit" at the same time.

OMG PONIES
2010-07-15, 01:40 PM
Or be a Dustform Orc Incarnate Construct.
Dustform is from Sandstorm and is a LA +2 Template that makes turns you into a construct.

You will be getting +8 Str and +3 NA, without the light sensitivity, for LA +0.
Of course you also get -2 Int, -2 Wis and -2 Cha, but that shouldn't matter much for the bonus that you are getting.

I've never thought of this use. I'll have to check out Dustform, because this just seems too awesome.


Then the solution would be to have those templates "hit" at the same time.

Yes. If Incarnate Construct is used along with templates that can be applied to constructs, it's useful. Otherwise, you can change warforged into humanoids and otherwise alleviate a small amount of the LA for constructs.

Its_Meh
2010-07-22, 08:51 PM
Let me just point out that that is merely your assertion.

That's true. I assert that authors of the template wrote on page 144 of Savage Species:


Incarnate Construct: This is a very specific template intended to turn some constructs, such as stone golems, into humanoids or giants. The primary benefit of this template is that it provides a way for golems to become player characters.

Note the choice of the words: "some" and "golems". Thus, warforged were not intended to have to have the Incarnate Construct template applied to them, as they were created as a playable race.


It's not clear if the warforged loses its subtype in the process of acquiring IC. If it doesn't (and I can't seem to find any indication that it would), it keeps the majority of its abilities.

Incorrect. If you recall the prestige class of Reforged, a warforged who lost their composite plating and thus no longer qualifies for the adamantine body, even though they are a warforged. Granted, it explains explicitly that you lose your warforged feats, but states that it is due to a consistent physical change (losing any composite plating, armor spikes, metal tracery, and so forth), much like the warforged would experience when they lost all of those Special Qualities from Incarnate Construct.

Hence, a warforged that loses its composite plating, no longer qualifies for the Adamantine Body feat.


It's not clear if the warforged loses its subtype in the process of acquiring IC. If it doesn't (and I can't seem to find any indication that it would), it keeps the majority of its abilities.

That would be true, in most cases of just a mere type change. However, the template clearly states that the character loses all its Special Attacks, Attack Modes, and Special Qualities, which include racial traits.

Effectively, applying Incarnate Construct would cause the warforged to lose any benefit that the Living Construct subtype could give it, and all of the effective benefits of being a warforged.


If this is an actual ruling(or even a sage ruling), I would appreciate you providing the source for it. That would be nice to have when the next Negative LA thread pops up.

I haven't even bothered looking for a ruling. The easiest way is to look at the mechanics for negative levels, where it states that a character cannot go below level 1. Hence, applying Incarnate Construct or any other negative level adjustment template, would not reduce a character below level 1.


This is interesting. Although its not really represented mechanically in the rules anywhere, meaning its fluff and therefore mutable, you are correct. The beginning of the Savage Species chapter on templates mentions that inherited templates are applied at birth. It seems like a fuzzy kind of a ruling though, or maybe thats just me thinking its stupid since you should be able to apply it on creation/first existence of a character, IMHO.

It is represented in the rules. Skip Williams talks about the differences between inherited templates and acquired templates here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060711a).


Acquired templates reflect changes a creature undergoes after its birth.

A creature must be born with an inherited template.

Simple.


Of course, one way to get around this would be to use one of those inherited templates like Half-Celestial where it explicitly states that celestials can mate with virtually everything :smallbiggrin:

The sages touch on this here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20070122a). Effectively, if the template states a very loose definition, like with half-celestial or half-dragon, then it can be applied to a warforged. I imagine it is equated to the creators of the warforged blending in some celestial, fiendish, or draconic components into the forging process.

Remember, this doesn't mean that all inherited templates could be applied, as a warforged does not qualify for most of the templates. This includes even after the warforged gains the acquired template of Incarnate Construct, as acquired templates are applied after birth. Thus making them ineligible for most inherited templates, no matter how you slice it.

faceroll
2010-07-22, 11:22 PM
Feral Mineral Warrior Half-Minotaur Lolth-Touched White Dragonspawn Incarnate Construct Warforged with all the LA+0 templates mentioned earlier, anyone?

Mineral Warrior Lolth-Touched White Dragonspawn Incarnate Construct Warforged works, for a total of +1 LA. Feral and Half-Minotaur are both inherited templates that warforged are not eligible for, as they warforged are constructs.