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Infernum
2010-06-08, 01:03 AM
Ive been looking over the alternate magic systems as of late and have come to my conclusions on some of the systems like Binders, Shadowcasters and True Namers. (In my opinion they all are kinda crappy, but that is not what im here to talk about.)

But im kinda on the fence on Incarnum, im not sure about it. From what Ive read, they are kinda neat and have a lot of little special finicky powers and abilities, but im not sure it has enough on its own to really be a class that would be useful or even exist since they don't seem that powerful besides having lots of little abilities.

I am curious if someone can give me some insight into how these run in games and how useful they end up being or if they die as fast as i think they might.

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-06-08, 01:11 AM
Incarnum actually does pretty well at hitting things and skill monkeying. Just ignore the all of the Soulborn class. Their soulmelds are nice, just not with the class itself. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=551.0)


As for the Tome of Magic, Binders are amazing, Shadowcasters are so-so, and don't really bother with the Truenamer's crunch.

Keld Denar
2010-06-08, 01:17 AM
MoI is similar to ToB in that its literally insertable ANYWHERE. Seriously. Dip a level, spare a feat, learn a spell (or better, a power), or take it 1 - 20, you're options are never limited. Its fun, diverse, and brings an interesting mechanic to the table, once you've read it through 4-5 times.

Take that for what you will.

Kyeudo
2010-06-08, 01:26 AM
From what I've seen of Incarnum, it rocks. The Arena sees a fair number of Incarnum-users (one of mine, a Totemist, was the first to break level 3), and they pack a lot of versatility and power into each match when used well.

If you want to give Truenaming a second chance, have a look at the fix in my sig. Most of what is wrong with truenaming doesn't take much work to get back on track.

For Valor
2010-06-08, 01:28 AM
Use:

Soulborn--No
Incarnte--Sure
Totemist--Yes

Binder--Yes. Try and get the Summon Monster vestige
Shadowcaster--Sure
Truenamer--No

lsfreak
2010-06-08, 01:43 AM
Binder and MoI (if you ignore the soulborn) are tied for "single best thing to come out of 3.5e" (followed closely by ToB).

Incarnum is complicated your first time through, but very flavorful and works - and works well - mechanically, and without being broken. And as said, it's one of those things that works great whether you take a single feat, or take a whole class.

Aharon
2010-06-08, 03:36 AM
Actually, Truenamers aren't half as bad as most people think. They have access to some awesome utterances, and an ability no other class can reproduce - Rebuild Item. This can be used with potion-tiles, an alternative to normal tiles described in Complete Arcane. The Laws governing Truespeak aren't as hard as most posters think, as you can heighten your utterances to lessen the impact. Mortalbane in conjunction with the damage dealing utterances is awesome. The only hard part is getting your checks high enough, but that can be dealt with if you optimize thoroughly. I imagine playing from 1 is tedious, but if you start in the mid-level range (specifically, if you start having access to Rebuild Item), they are between Tier 3 and Tier 4.
You have to do lots of book-dipping to find useful potions to rebuild, though.

Catch
2010-06-08, 03:40 AM
Since it's been mentioned a couple times, I thought I'd point out that Person_Man made a neat little Soulborn fix here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119121), and it's worth a look.

senrath
2010-06-08, 03:44 AM
Actually, Truenamers aren't half as bad as most people think. They have access to some awesome utterances, and an ability no other class can reproduce - Rebuild Item. This can be used with potion-tiles, an alternative to normal tiles described in Complete Arcane. The Laws governing Truespeak aren't as hard as most posters think, as you can heighten your utterances to lessen the impact. Mortalbane in conjunction with the damage dealing utterances is awesome. The only hard part is getting your checks high enough, but that can be dealt with if you optimize thoroughly. I imagine playing from 1 is tedious, but if you start in the mid-level range (specifically, if you start having access to Rebuild Item), they are between Tier 3 and Tier 4.
You have to do lots of book-dipping to find useful potions to rebuild, though.

If you absolutely need specific items to be able to be at all functional, I think that qualifies as "bad".

lesser_minion
2010-06-08, 03:44 AM
Actually, Truenamers aren't half as bad as most people think. They have access to some awesome utterances, and an ability no other class can reproduce - Rebuild Item. This can be used with potion-tiles, an alternative to normal tiles described in Complete Arcane. The Laws governing Truespeak aren't as hard as most posters think, as you can heighten your utterances to lessen the impact. Mortalbane in conjunction with the damage dealing utterances is awesome. The only hard part is getting your checks high enough, but that can be dealt with if you optimize thoroughly.

The reason the truenamer is so despised it doesn't have a tier is because sucks if you don't optimise through the nose, and it rips the game a new one if you do.

Most classes don't mandate that the player optimise them to all hell and back.


If you absolutely need specific items to be able to be at all functional, I think that qualifies as "bad".

Like stat boosters, which everyone absolutely needs?

Keld Denar
2010-06-08, 03:47 AM
Truenamers need Item Familiar to function...

Druids need Natural Spell

Fighter/Barbs need Power Attack

Everyone gets a feat tax...except those durned wizards!

senrath
2010-06-08, 03:50 AM
Like stat boosters, which everyone absolutely needs?

You don't need stat boosters. They're nice, but not essential. Good luck functioning as a Truenamer without every Truenaming boosting item you can get your hands on (all of the printed ones, plus a custom one or two).

lesser_minion
2010-06-08, 03:52 AM
Truenamers need Item Familiar to function...

Yeah... eeeew.


Druids need Natural Spell

Not really. It's a cute bonus on top of an already overpowered platform (Casters with some vestige of a limiting factor? How preposterous!).


Fighter/Barbs need Power Attack

There are a few alternatives. See also Combat Expertise/Improved Trip.


Everyone gets a feat tax...except those durned wizards!

Well, metamagic can constitute a feat tax, and it's needed a bit more than druids need natural spell.

Aharon
2010-06-08, 04:05 AM
@lesser minion
The impression I usually get is that people forget an optimized truenamer is able to assist a party.

@magic item dependency
Assuming magic mart, you can totally build a Truenamer without Item Familiar (though he will be far stronger having it.):

At 12th level, for example, you can have a Truespeak modifier of
15 ranks +7 int +2 Heroism +10 racial +10 enhancement +12 circumstance +2 competence +1 illiterate (+35 unnamed)= 59(94)

The 35 unnamed are from Universal Aptitude, if you play in Eberron or in a campaign where Eberron sources are allowed. If that is the case, you can get a Tile of Metamagic Item (Persistent Spell), which can be applied to wands and scepters of Universal Aptitude, as it doesn't modify the Spell Slot (Complete Arcane states that metamagic feats that don't modify the spell slots can be applied to spell-like abilities, Utterances can be stored in spell trigger items despite being spell-likes, and not spells.

Person_Man
2010-06-08, 10:57 AM
Incarnate: Very strong defenses and good mobility. OK Skill Monkeys, which becomes excellent if you dip one level into any Skill Monkey class and take Able Learner. A few good Save or Suck effects. A small but interesting number of combos.

Totemist: Very strong offense and mobility, with decent defense.

Soulborn: Made of suck unless you use a homebrew fix, which Catch was nice enough to link to. With the fix they're basically an Incarnum Gish that specializes in Smite.

Binder: Large number of Save or Lose effects and weird but awesome combos. Strong mental defenses (Slippery Mind, Mind Blank). Excellent party faces and scouts.

Truenamer: Garbage. I've seen several good homebrew re-writes though.

Shadowcaster: Basically full casters with very limited spell lists and spells per day. Basically just needs heavy PrC use to be playable.

AstralFire
2010-06-08, 10:58 AM
Incarnum is fully functional, but I find it mechanically boring for some reason. Different strokes.

DragoonWraith
2010-06-08, 11:00 AM
Actually, Truenamers aren't half as bad as most people think. They have access to some awesome utterances, and an ability no other class can reproduce - Rebuild Item. This can be used with potion-tiles, an alternative to normal tiles described in Complete Arcane. The Laws governing Truespeak aren't as hard as most posters think, as you can heighten your utterances to lessen the impact. Mortalbane in conjunction with the damage dealing utterances is awesome. The only hard part is getting your checks high enough, but that can be dealt with if you optimize thoroughly. I imagine playing from 1 is tedious, but if you start in the mid-level range (specifically, if you start having access to Rebuild Item), they are between Tier 3 and Tier 4.
You have to do lots of book-dipping to find useful potions to rebuild, though.
That's not that powerful an ability, that's an extremely tenuous rules interpretation, and regardless such a dependence by default makes Truenamers awful. You've been preaching this same message in several threads, and no one agrees with you. You're welcome to your opinion, but the evangelization is getting annoying. You're starting to sound like Giacomo.

AmberVael
2010-06-08, 11:05 AM
I just want to put out there that an Incarnate's capabilities and role are not necessarily obvious. When you see a 1/2 BAB, d6 HD class with a kind of magical mechanic to them, you really don't think "Oh, this is a combat class."

It can do other things (it IS pretty good at skilling), but generally the builds I see take advantage of its attack power.


I personally like Incarnum, but find it best works in a Gestalt environment, or as a splash or multi-classed character. It has a number of nifty things to it, but a great number of them are passive, or are best when spammed... so it can get a little tedious at times.
Still, you can do some great things with it.

Gametime
2010-06-08, 11:16 AM
If memory serves, there are a few Utterances that are worthwhile; there's a slow analogue with no save, for example, and some kind of immobilization effect that (again) offers no save. Zaq's writeup calls out the utterances that are really worth using.

The problem with truenamers is that they're meant to have spells with a chance of failure, just like normal spellcasters, but instead of offering saving throws they require a skill check instead. The designers clearly realized that skill checks are easy to pump, because they made the DCs absurd, but with enough focus you can hit them regularly. Once you do, there are very few limiting factors on your ability to debuff enemies, although all your debuffs will be short-term and you don't have a huge selection.

Truenamers also lack a lot of basic utility; their fly equivalent only lasts for 5 rounds, for instance, and there are a lot of utterances that are just worthless.

Truenamers aren't unplayable, but playing one makes you realize there isn't enough interesting crunch behind the obviously-awful scaling DC to make them worth the effort.

Fax Celestis
2010-06-08, 11:17 AM
Soulborn: Made of suck unless you use a homebrew fix, which Catch was nice enough to link to. With the fix they're basically an Incarnum Gish that specializes in Smite.

My favorite Soulborn fix is to gestalt it with Soulknife in a nongestalt environment.

AmberVael
2010-06-08, 11:20 AM
My favorite Soulborn fix is to gestalt it with Soulknife in a nongestalt environment.

That sounds like a lot of fun, actually. It would be nice to have an incarnum mechanic for the Soulknife weapon, but it's probably better without it (so as not to tie up more essentia).

Fax Celestis
2010-06-08, 11:23 AM
That sounds like a lot of fun, actually. It would be nice to have an incarnum mechanic for the Soulknife weapon, but it's probably better without it (so as not to tie up more essentia).

There's the Psycarnum Blade feat. :P

valadil
2010-06-08, 11:45 AM
I've heard good things about the system in theory, but never actually talked to anyone who played it. If you do buy a copy, make sure your DM is okay with it or be willing to DM it yourself.

Maerok
2010-06-08, 11:57 AM
Amazon was selling Magic of Incarnum for $5 a while back. :smallbiggrin: Why not pick it up?

Optimystik
2010-06-08, 12:17 PM
Since we have all the (remaining :smallfrown:) Incarnum fans in one thread, could someone explain the joke in the 3rd panel of this comic? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0546.html)

I would think there'd have to be some soulmeld available at 18 that could help Redcloak out, whether via telepathy or torture.

Note - before this comic, I had no idea Incarnum even existed - now I am among it's staunchest supporters :smalltongue:

Gametime
2010-06-08, 12:31 PM
Since we have all the (remaining :smallfrown:) Incarnum fans in one thread, could someone explain the joke in the 3rd panel of this comic? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0546.html)

I would think there'd have to be some soulmeld available at 18 that could help Redcloak out, whether via telepathy or torture.

Note - before this comic, I had no idea Incarnum even existed - now I am among it's staunchest supporters :smalltongue:

I think it's a tongue-in-cheek reference to Incarnum being useless, although it might just represent Redcloaks unwillingness to bother learning the Incarnum rules.

Optimystik
2010-06-08, 12:38 PM
I think it's a tongue-in-cheek reference to Incarnum being useless, although it might just represent Redcloaks unwillingness to bother learning the Incarnum rules.

That's what I thought at first, but these boards convinced me Incarnum is far from useless... and Rich is a pretty smart guy/decent optimizer, he would have had to know that Incarnum isn't bad. But at the same time, for Redcloak to dismiss the Incarnum user out of hand like he did, he would have to have some idea of what Incarnum is. So that joke confuses me to this day.


I think it was just because incarnum is a rare and unusual form of magic, even moreso than psionics. As such, it's less likely that O'Chul has a counter for it.

So then why didn't he call for the Incarnum user? Asking only for the 8-ball and cookies implies he wanted nothing to do with Incarnum. And I would think an 18th-level anything would be handy.

EDIT: Ninja-leeted!

DragoonWraith
2010-06-08, 12:52 PM
For the record, I definitely support Incarnum in all ways. The only book ever published for 3.5 that was better than Magic of Incarnum was Tome of Battle.

And the only reason I believe ToB was better is simply because ToB was far more necessary; the system desperately needed what it had to offer, while MoI was just a ridiculously cool and elegantly designed (if inelegantly explained) addition that the system could live without, though it would be much worse off.

Infernum
2010-06-08, 02:15 PM
OK, thanks for all the input on Incarnum, I have come to my own conclusions on it, but the input did make a strong case for it. I believe that Totemists are very cool and workable, Incarnates are ok and more useful as a splash class, no reason to take them any higher than a few levels, and Soulborns are awful unless you tweak them(not really worth it though). (Though all this is just my opinion, for what thats worth) They can have a place in a setting I am working on, just as psionics and Archivists (although i am tweaking this class because it is way to powerful, even near broken if you allow certain things.) I thank everyone for their input on Incarnum and shall return with questions on other topics later.

HOWEVER,

I am surprised at how often something else happens on the GITP forums though, i made mention of my personal opinion on the classes front he Tome of Magic and then stated that that was not what i was here to ask about or discuss, and yet those classes are discussed almost as much as the topic i wanting to learn about. Although i could have just as easily left out my opinion on them and continued forward. But from what ive seen, when ever someone makes mention of their opinion on a class then segue into what they are wanting to discuss people jump to that classes defense or try and prove that person wrong. I am curious why people feel the need to do this. In some cases i understand, since people are looking for people to argue with them, but when its stated that the opinion stated of a class is not what is meant to be discussed, that generally means that that isnt what the OP wants to hear about.

Person_Man
2010-06-08, 02:17 PM
My favorite Soulborn fix is to gestalt it with Soulknife in a nongestalt environment.

Definitely a good idea - Soulknife + full BAB and armor + minor incarnum and Smite abilities would definitely improve it. But without a rewrite, it would still be a Tier 4ish class.

The RAW Mindblade is weaker then what you can afford with standard WBL and can't be enchanted. So using it saves you a little gp, but usually puts you at a disadvantage. And the RAW Soulborn only gets 10 points of essentia, 5 soulmelds, and 3 chakra binds, with no access to Heart or Soul slots and no expanded essentia capacity.

But give me a bit and I could combine my homebrew Soulborn with my homebrew Soulknife (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=92407) for a workable Tier 3 class.

Tavar
2010-06-08, 02:21 PM
There is one version of that here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=100035), if your interested.

Keld Denar
2010-06-08, 02:29 PM
I am curious why people feel the need to do this.

People like various systems. They want to promote those systems because they feel that if they have fun with them, others can have fun with them. Some systems have a learning curve or a flavor or a whatever to them that might make them initially unappealing to a passerbyer (psionics is the biggy, but ToB (anime) and MoI (complicated) are others). If a random person sees a thread that trashes MoI thoroughly, they might discount it and never pick it up to see the wonderfully awesome content within.

So, I guess what people around here try to do is preemptively open peoples minds to trying various suppliments that they might otherwise shy away from, thereby increasing the enjoyment of those products across the general populus. This might sound a bit too altruistic, but then again, some people just like to hear themselves talk (type?).

DragoonWraith
2010-06-08, 02:48 PM
Also, honestly: this is a discussion forum. We discuss things. As thread starter, you do set the topic of discussion, but ultimately, it isn't "your" thread and you can't control what people talk about.

And furthermore, as much as people's opinions are their own, it is possible (and common, with respect to certain books) for opinions to be based on misconceptions, misunderstandings, or faulty assumptions. An opinion cannot effectively be "wrong", but an "invalid" opinion seems plausible to me. Simply stating that something is your opinion does not render you immune to any commentary on that opinion.

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-06-08, 03:08 PM
*snip*


*snip*

Basically, this. There are also people like myself who also enjoy the debate aspect of such discussions for one reason or another. I myself don't use Incarnum too terribly often, but I do find it interesting, even if it takes a few reads through the book to get everything.

For similar reasons to why I like Incarnum, I love Binders. Takes some getting used to, but there is a nice array of versatility to be found therein.

Kobold-Bard
2010-06-08, 03:20 PM
There is one version of that here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=100035), if your interested.

Damned hour long ninja. You're the worst kind :smallwink:

Seriously though, the class is awesome.

Optimystik
2010-06-08, 03:23 PM
As thread starter, you do set the topic of discussion, but ultimately, it isn't "your" thread and you can't control what people talk about.

I am curious why people feel the need to try this.

"Guys, stop evolving the discussion! Stick to my narrow line of inquiry! Can you hear me? Stop having fun! (http://xkcd.com/359/)"

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-06-08, 03:25 PM
I am curious why people feel the need to try this.

"Guys, stop evolving the discussion! Stick to my narrow line of inquiry! Can you hear me? Stop having fun! (http://xkcd.com/359/)"

I think it's largely to get the answers to the initial question without having to dig through only semi-related posts such as the one I'm typing now.

Optimystik
2010-06-08, 03:33 PM
I think it's largely to get the answers to the initial question without having to dig through only semi-related posts such as the one I'm typing now.

I didn't need to "dig" to tell your post was tangential.

Besides, many posts can diverge from topic while still containing relevant information to the topic at hand, such as the fact that MoI contains PrCs and items that allow campaigns to include a "splash" of Incarnum - to wet a new player's feet without a full-on commitment. Incarnum Blade is my favorite example of this, a class that allows players to experience incarnum without reading through the Soulmelds chapter or even knowing what Essentia is.

...For example. :smalltongue:

Prime32
2010-06-08, 03:36 PM
I didn't need to "dig" to tell your post was tangential.

Besides, many posts can diverge from topic while still containing relevant information to the topic at hand, such as the fact that MoI contains PrCs and items that allow campaigns to include a "splash" of Incarnum - to wet a new player's feet without a full-on commitment. Incarnum Blade is my favorite example of this, a class that allows players to experience incarnum without reading through the Soulmelds chapter or even knowing what Essentia is.

...For example. :smalltongue:Pleh. Incarnum Blade isn't an incarnum class, it just throws in some names. It's not even a decent class in its own right.

Infernum
2010-06-08, 03:49 PM
Thrice Dead Cat is correct, it is because I was only interested in my original question and not the other topics being brought up. Although I do appreciate the explanation to my second question. Perhaps in the future I will bring up a debate thread for discussion on topics such as binders and ToB classes as I am interested in discussion of these classes. Again, thanks to everyone who had input on Incarnum.

Optimystik
2010-06-08, 03:51 PM
Pleh. Incarnum Blade isn't an incarnum class, it just throws in some names. It's not even a decent class in its own right.

I disagree; IB is only bad if you consider it an Incarnum PrC. In actuality, it's not intended for Meldshapers at all. It's a short, full BAB class that you can tack onto any 3/4 BAB chassis for that 4th attack. It's easy as pie to qualify for. It gives great abilities (+10 Insight to resist bull rush, grapple and trip? And you never lose your Dex bonus to AC while flatfooted, denying SA? Yes please. Or how about Blind Fight without a feat? Align weapon without a spell?)

In short, it's the Ruathar of melee classes. Best of all, binding your blademeld to chakras still allows you to benefit from magic items in that slot, unlike every other 'meld in the book. So you literally lose nothing. What's the problem?

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-06-08, 03:54 PM
I didn't need to "dig" to tell your post was tangential.

Besides, many posts can diverge from topic while still containing relevant information to the topic at hand, such as the fact that MoI contains PrCs and items that allow campaigns to include a "splash" of Incarnum - to wet a new player's feet without a full-on commitment. Incarnum Blade is my favorite example of this, a class that allows players to experience incarnum without reading through the Soulmelds chapter or even knowing what Essentia is.

...For example. :smalltongue:

Oooh, well played.

I'm a pretty big fan of the Incarnum opening feats both for characters with and without meldshaper levels myself, much for the same reason why I love the existence of Martial Training to nab a maneuver or two. It's no where near the versatility of the entire subsystem itself, but both give you a one-time pick from the respective (and awesome) subsystems, which can offer something for just about everyone.

Lycanthromancer
2010-06-08, 04:06 PM
Since we have all the (remaining :smallfrown:) Incarnum fans in one thread, could someone explain the joke in the 3rd panel of this comic? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0546.html)

I would think there'd have to be some soulmeld available at 18 that could help Redcloak out, whether via telepathy or torture.

Note - before this comic, I had no idea Incarnum even existed - now I am among it's staunchest supporters :smalltongue:There's one solitary single soulmeld in Magic of Incarnum that grants access to telepathy...

...and it's a [Good] soulmeld. :smallbiggrin:

Kobold-Bard
2010-06-08, 04:12 PM
Since we have all the (remaining :smallfrown:) Incarnum fans in one thread, could someone explain the joke in the 3rd panel of this comic? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0546.html)

I would think there'd have to be some soulmeld available at 18 that could help Redcloak out, whether via telepathy or torture.

Note - before this comic, I had no idea Incarnum even existed - now I am among it's staunchest supporters :smalltongue:

People see Magic of Incarnum and assume it'll give the Wizards and Clerics a run for their money.

Then it doesn't, so they assume it's cack.

Optimystik
2010-06-08, 04:24 PM
People see Magic of Incarnum and assume it'll give the Wizards and Clerics a run for their money.

Then it doesn't, so they assume it's cack.

While that's true of many people, Rich doesn't strike me as that kind of person.


There's one solitary single soulmeld in Magic of Incarnum that grants access to telepathy...

...and it's a [Good] soulmeld. :smallbiggrin:

Ha! That might be it.

Kobold-Bard
2010-06-08, 04:25 PM
While that's true of many people, Rich doesn't strike me as that kind of person.

...

He does make fun of gaming "truths" though.

Aharon
2010-06-09, 05:46 AM
@DragoonWraith
Unlike Giacomo, I don't get any feedback. I try, like him, to spark a discussion about the class. This much is true. However, if proven wrong, I won't continue spreading the message. Extremely tenous, you say? Please prove me wrong. I think what I posit has a lot more grounding in the rules than wand-dependent monks. And how is that dependence any worse than any other classes' dependence on items? A warblade can't do anything useful without magic items that allow him to fly, for example, can he?

I asked Zaq, the resident truenamer expert, to show me why he thinks my interpretation is wrong, but unfortunately, he did not seem to be interested in this discussion. He just said it's clearly not meant to be like that - but since when is the intention relevant to optimization? It's common knowledge that most things in optimization were not intended by the designers, so I would like to hear a rules-based refutation of what I posit. I promise, I'll shut up if proven wrong. But unlike Giacomo, who was confronted with facts numerous times, I seem to only get the opinion, but not the analysis this opinion is based on.

Sir Giacomo
2010-06-12, 04:34 AM
I promise, I'll shut up if proven wrong. But unlike Giacomo, who was confronted with facts numerous times, I seem to only get the opinion, but not the analysis this opinion is based on.

Please, do not drag me into this. Thanks.

- Giacomo