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oprishon
2010-06-08, 04:24 AM
Using only the PHB, and assuming the best possible rolls on all relevant randomized items, what is the highest AC a 1st-level character can obtain upon creation (including purchasing only what items they can technically buy with starting gold)?

I'd assume that you put an 18 into Dex, the race would have to be halfling (+2 dex, +1 AC size bonus)... add on the best armor and/or shields that don't interfere with the dex bonus... take the combat expertise feat, perhaps? Dodge? Two-weapon defense?

stenver
2010-06-08, 04:28 AM
Small size +1
Dex 12 +1
Full plate +8
Tower Shield +4
Beginning AC +10
Thats 24

Friend who casts mage armour +4
Friend who casts Shield of faith +2


That totals 30.

Im sure, you can get higher

Sliver
2010-06-08, 04:46 AM
Using only the PHB ... I'd assume that you put an 18 into Dex, the race would have to be halfling ... combat expertise ... Dodge ... Two-weapon defense?

Impossible all together. Even if you go halfling fighter, you have two feats, and without UA for flaws, the max you can go is human with 3, and you still one feat short to have the two weapon defense, which is bad anyway if you want to optimize AC, since a shield will give you better bonus than 2 weapons and a TWD feat.

Prone will give you +4 vs ranged attacks... And if you want to go to second level and still optimize AC, then tumble is a good option for the fighting defensively/total defense options/.

Myou
2010-06-08, 04:51 AM
Small size +1
Dex 12 +1
Full plate +8
Tower Shield +4
Beginning AC +10
Thats 24

Friend who casts mage armour +4
Friend who casts Shield of faith +2


That totals 30.

Im sure, you can get higher

Armour bonuses don't stack. You can't have both Mage Armour and actual armour.

Rannil
2010-06-08, 04:53 AM
Small size +1
Dex 12 +1
Full plate +8
Tower Shield +4
Beginning AC +10
Thats 24

Friend who casts mage armour +4
Friend who casts Shield of faith +2


That totals 30.

Im sure, you can get higher

Nice start, but some correction.
The OP asked for what could be bought with starting gold. A full plate is 1500gp. (Fighter/Paladin/Ranger can start with 240 gp max, richest possibility)
Mage armor doesn't stack with normal armor.



My best bet would be
14 dex +2
Chainmail + 5
Tower shield + 4
Size +1
For 22 armor without spells nor feats

Edit: Wait with halflling you could reach 20 potential dex
Then we got
20 dex +5
Studded leather +3
heavy shield +2
Size +1

Meh only a 21, but it its cheaper. (180gp vs 32/45gp) and no tower shield penalties.

Also doesn't give full cover the same AC as the break DC of the wall? :smalltongue:

AxeD
2010-06-08, 05:32 AM
Would the polymorph spell be useful at all in maxing out AC?

How to be able to cast Polymorph at level 1:
Roll up a Wizard/Sorceror, spend 100gp to summon a familiar. Find a noble who would be interested in buying an intelligent animal and sell it to him/her for at least 700gp (I mean, how cool would it be to have a Raven that can speak common?). Use that money to get a scroll of polymorph. All you need then is a Wizard/Sorceror who has at least 14 Int/Cha to cast the spell.

The only issue is finding a monster at 1 HD who has a high AC. Also it only works once - and then you're broke.

Thought it might be an interesting concept though.

Edit: Maybe polymorphing into a fine sized creature for that +8 to AC? Can armor be made for fine sized creatures?

Nihb
2010-06-08, 05:39 AM
Kobold.

+1 Size
+1 from the +2 Dexterity they get
+1 Natural

add your armor, shield and other fluff. Sure, you'll have to deal with the -4 str, -2 con... but hey, AC. Not my problem.

Killer Angel
2010-06-08, 05:40 AM
Would the polymorph spell be useful at all in maxing out AC?


With alter self is simpler.

oprishon
2010-06-08, 05:47 AM
Kobold.

+1 Size
+1 from the +2 Dexterity they get
+1 Natural

add your armor, shield and other fluff. Sure, you'll have to deal with the -4 str, -2 con... but hey, AC. Not my problem.

Kobold's not in the PHB, though. I want to know the highest AC you can get with a "beginner's game" - i.e., you buy the three main books and start playing.

Rannil
2010-06-08, 05:58 AM
Kobold's not in the PHB, though. I want to know the highest AC you can get with a "beginner's game" - i.e., you buy the three main books and start playing.

Thee main books. I guess PH, MMI and DMG. Kobolds as playable characters are in the first monster manual.

Also can we assume magic buffs or not? And if so until what level? Stacking barkskin with protection from [law/evil/good/chaos] with a shield of faith with cat's grace with magic vestment... etc (Estimate this around 8-10)

Spells can give way more armor then gear/races from core, but I guess that doesn't fit all in a game from the start.

oprishon
2010-06-08, 06:00 AM
Thee main books. I guess PH, MMI and DMG. Kobolds as playable characters are in the first monster manual.

Also can we assume magic buffs or not? And if so until what level? Stacking barkskin with protection from [law/evil/good/chaos] with a shield of faith with cat's grace with magic vestment... etc (Estimate this around 8-10)

Spells can give way more armor then gear/races from core, but I guess that doesn't fit all in a game from the start.

Well, yes, playable characters appear in the Monster's Manual. But I wanted to limit character creation to the PHB alone.

Assume magic buffs available only to a party of first-level characters from the PHB.

Thurbane
2010-06-08, 06:06 AM
OK, Halfling Fighter (max 240gp), with the Combat Expertise & Dodge feats:

Base = 10
Size +1
Chainmail (150gp) +5 armor
Tower Shield (30gp) +4 shield
DEX +2
Combat Expertise feat +1 dodge

AC = 23

Others:

Dodge feat +1 dodge (vs. one opponent)
Potion of Shield of Faith +2 (50gp) +2 deflection (lasts 1 minute)

Situational:

Cover +4
Prone (vs. ranged attack) +4
Kneeling or sitting +2
Fighting defensively +2 dodge
Successful Aid Another check +2 (per character)

Rannil
2010-06-08, 06:14 AM
Well, yes, playable characters appear in the Monster's Manual. But I wanted to limit character creation to the PHB alone.

Assume magic buffs available only to a party of first-level characters from the PHB.

I found:
20 Dex +5 (starting 18+2 gnome)
Size + 1
Shield +4 Shield bonus (better then tower shield due no dex penalty, lvl 1 sorc/wiz)
Shield of Faith +2 (deflection, lvl 1 cleric)
Protection from [blah] +2 (dodge, lvl 1 cleric)
Studded Leather Armor +3 (allows +5 dex bonus)
Mage Armor +4
Dodge feat +1 (dodge, stacks with dodge, vs one target)
combat expertise feat +1 (at lvl 1)

10+5+1+4+2+4+1+1
28 AC vs 1 focused opponent
27 AC vs everyone else (unless flat footed or touch)

or instead combat expertise, Mobility
32 AC vs AoO from 1 focused opponent. Hah

Edit: took my time, got ninjad and forgot size bonus :smalltongue:
Edit2+3: more mistakes, silly me

And


Situational:

Cover +4
Prone (vs. ranged attack) +4
Kneeling or sitting +2
Fighting defensively +2 dodge
Successful Aid Another check +2 (per character)
Could we stack all of those. I guess prone doesn't really fit but:

Sitting on the ground fighting defensively while being aided by 5 friends and everyone is behind a wall!
4+2+2+5*2
18 extra AC?

Thurbane
2010-06-08, 06:18 AM
Protection From Alignment is a deflection bonus, which doesn't stack with Shield of Faith (which is a minimum of +2, BTW).

Also, Mage Armor is +4 armor bonus with no cap on DEX, so better than studded leather.

Emmerask
2010-06-08, 06:19 AM
Monk Halfling Level 1

20dex, 18wis

10 base
+ 5 dex
+ 4 wis
+ 1 size
______
20

+ Mage Armor 24 AC
+ Shield of Faith 26AC

Gold spend 0GP :smallsmile: (buffs from party wiz and cleric :smallbiggrin:)

Rothen
2010-06-08, 06:21 AM
I'll raise you a halfling cleric.
AC=10+1(size)+5(Dex)+3(Armour) +4(Tower shield) + 2(Shield of faith)

I might've missed something, but shield of faith is the essential bit.

Eldariel
2010-06-08, 06:22 AM
Are we allowed a scroll buyable on level 1? 'cause Scroll of Alter Self + castings of Shield and Mage Armor and Reduce Person for 20 Dex Small chassis would get you:
Troglodyte for +6 Nat Armor
Small + 22 Dex for +7 AC
Mage Armor for +4 Armor
Shield for +4 Shield-bonus

For a total of 31. It only lasts for 3 mins, though, and may require selling your Spellbook and going around with Spell Mastery alone. I guess you could get a Potion of Shield of Faith for +2 extra.

Rannil
2010-06-08, 06:26 AM
It's getting more and more interesting eh


Protection From Alignment is a deflection bonus, which doesn't stack with Shield of Faith (which is a minimum of +2, BTW).

Also, Mage Armor is +4 armor bonus with no cap on DEX, so better than studded leather.
Thought Prot was Dodge :smallfrown:
And oopsie mage armor


Monk Halfling Level 1

20dex, 18wis

10 base
+ 5 dex
+ 4 wis
+ 1 size
______
20

+ Mage Armor 24 AC
+ Shield of Faith 26AC

Gold spend 0GP :smallsmile: (buffs from party wiz and cleric :smallbiggrin:)
Genius!

At least had shield +4 Shield (silly name for a spell)
Tadaa 30 AC against anyone.

Without spending money due good caster friends. :smallsmile:

Eldariel
2010-06-08, 06:30 AM
At least had shield +4 Shield (silly name for a spell)
Tadaa 30 AC against anyone.

Shield is personal, unfortunately. That's why I suggest Wizard; he'll win out 'cause he can use Personal spells, though again, he needs to invest in a level 2 spell to do it (his maximum wealth on level 1 would enable that though).

Emmerask
2010-06-08, 06:34 AM
Well you could use a scroll of shield using umd 21 is quite beatable at level one if we skill correctly + skillfocus umd ^^

so 30 normal AC
and 22 touch AC

Rannil
2010-06-08, 06:37 AM
Shield is personal, unfortunately. That's why I suggest Wizard; he'll win out 'cause he can use Personal spells, though again, he needs to invest in a level 2 spell to do it (his maximum wealth on level 1 would enable that though).

Maybe I should read the full spell descriptions, not just skimming the names in the short list. Duhh. I feel stupid.

So it's either +4 monk or +4 wizard.
Both can reach the 26 then. Without scrolls and such. Without spending a single copper piece with friend support.

And if those friends support in battle while you sit behind your tiny cover, we can add that +18 from earlier?

44 AC while sitting behind covered, supported by five friends, fighting defensly

45 AC if you slap on the dodge feat

I guess they wouldn't stack all, but 45 AC as wizard sounds dreamy.

Edit:
Cover - Undefined bonus.
Fighting Defensively - Dodge
Sitting is ranged only >_<
Aid another - Undefined too, but they must be able to attack the enemy and in a square near you, so only 2 can help.

Still 4+2+4=10 AC

36 free, a monk could reach 40 with scrolls.
Wizards allowing alter self (lvl 2 spell) even more, but if we allow that we can also allow barkskin and cat's grace from a druid too. (That's another +4 AC)

With

Are we allowed a scroll buyable on level 1? 'cause Scroll of Alter Self + castings of Shield and Mage Armor and Reduce Person for 20 Dex Small chassis would get you:
Troglodyte for +6 Nat Armor
Small + 22 Dex for +7 AC
Mage Armor for +4 Armor
Shield for +4 Shield-bonus

For a total of 31. It only lasts for 3 mins, though, and may require selling your Spellbook and going around with Spell Mastery alone. I guess you could get a Potion of Shield of Faith for +2 extra.

A wizard can reach 47 AC at level 1, using 3 level 2 spell scrolls. And a lot of other conditionals.
48 with dodge feat! :smallbiggrin:

While the monk is still stuck at 40 AC, 41?

Unless I made another mistake. :smalleek:

oprishon
2010-06-08, 06:59 AM
Wow, I didn't think you could get that high with the basic rules!

I must admit though that I haven't 100% followed everything. Can somebody break down for me how much of this AC is:

1) Permanent

2) Permanent + situational

3) Permanent + situational + one-time-use-only?

Rannil
2010-06-08, 07:26 AM
Wow, I didn't think you could get that high with the basic rules!

I must admit though that I haven't 100% followed everything. Can somebody break down for me how much of this AC is:

1) Basic stuff:
20 Dex, Halfling, 240 GP
If monk -> 18 Wis

16 AC Naked. (+5 Dex, +1 Size)
20 AC Monk (+5 Dex, +4 Wis, +1 Size)
22 AC Medium Armor (+2 Dex, +1 Size +4 Tower shield +5 Chain mail, 180gp)

2) Situational
Combat:
+4 AC Helping Friends (+2 per friend, can only help if they are in a square near you and attack that enemy)
+4 Cover
+2 Fighting Defensibly
___
10 AC Total in combat

Level One spells:
+4 mage armor (Doesn't stack with armor, no dex penalty)
+4 shield (Doesn't stack with shield, no dex penalty, self only, monks would need a scroll)
+2 shield of Faith
+2 Reduce Person (+1 (2 Dex), +1 size)
___
12 AC Total from spells.

Feats:
+1 Dodge (focused on one target)
+1 Combat Expertise (cannot be higher then BaB, wizards have a BaB of 0)
+1 Two-weapon defense (Doesn't stack with shield, does stack with the spell Shield)
+4 Mobility (versus AoO only)
___
Headbreaker! With fighter + flaws you can get all four!
+1 AC (just assuming Dodge for easiness)

Level two spells (only available as scrolls)
+6 Alter self (+6 Natural Armor,if used for a Troglodyte)
+2 Barkskin (Natural Armor, stacks)
+2 Cat's Grace (4 Dex)
___
+10 AC (14 AC for monks with adding Owl's Wisdom (+4 wis)




Wizard would lead to -> 16+10+12+1+10 = 49 AC
Monk would lead to -> 20+10+12+1+12 = 55 AC
If the monk makes all his scrolls checks. (Five checks total)
+Many many more conditionals of course. :smallbiggrin:

Edit: Looks a bit better.
Edit: And it's mistake time
Added Reduce person + fixed alter self.
Changed gnome into halfling and medium armor from 23 to 22 AC. Silly typo's

Eldariel
2010-06-08, 07:30 AM
Alter Self only grants +6 Natural Armor (stacks with Barkskin, btw). Size and Dex come from Reduce Person, yet another level 1 spell that can be used to buff AC.

Greenish
2010-06-08, 07:40 AM
A full plate is 1500gp.Enough shapesand to make a full plate for a medium creature would be 500gp, I seem to recall. Not core, though.

Rannil
2010-06-08, 07:49 AM
Enough shapesand to make a full plate for a medium creature would be 500gp, I seem to recall. Not core, though.

We can in core reduce the price to 750GP if we make a tiny one. With small + reduce person we fit in it. At least until reduce person ends, ouch.

P.S.

Alter Self only grants +6 Natural Armor (stacks with Barkskin, btw). Size and Dex come from Reduce Person, yet another level 1 spell that can be used to buff AC.
Fixed that, thx.

Sitzkrieg
2010-06-08, 02:52 PM
Aid Another in combat doesn't require that you are adjacent to the character you are aiding, only that you are capable of making a melee attack against the single enemy that you want the character to have an AC bonus against. This is essentially +2 per friend, which can reach unreasonable heights if you consider the 7 other squares surrounding the enemy, the number of tiny familiars that can fit inside the opponents square, the number of squares that can reach the enemy with 10 ft weapons, the various ways to increase the reach of your allies, and the potential of facing a larger opponent.

EDIT: Assuming a single medium sized opponent, four familiars, seven allies, and sixteen allies with reach weapons can be in a position to make a melee attack at one time, giving a +54 to AC. This assumes they all make the AC 10 attack roll to perform the action.

Flickerdart
2010-06-08, 03:13 PM
Start as a Wizard. Sell your spellbook, buy mountain plate and all sorts of scrolls. Profit.

Rannil
2010-06-08, 03:32 PM
Aid Another in combat doesn't require that you are adjacent to the character you are aiding, only that you are capable of making a melee attack against the single enemy that you want the character to have an AC bonus against. This is essentially +2 per friend, which can reach unreasonable heights if you consider the 7 other squares surrounding the enemy, the number of tiny familiars that can fit inside the opponents square, the number of squares that can reach the enemy with 10 ft weapons, the various ways to increase the reach of your allies, and the potential of facing a larger opponent.

EDIT: Assuming a single medium sized opponent, four familiars, seven allies, and sixteen allies with reach weapons can be in a position to make a melee attack at one time, giving a +54 to AC. This assumes they all make the AC 10 attack roll to perform the action.

Well is that so. How can the familiars attack, I mean if they are entering the enemies square then why assume only tine size? We can have a hundred flies in one square (fine size,but does that fit with the medium creature? and wouldn't one hundred flies in a single square form a swarm? :smalltongue:

Well those one hundred flies can already add 200 AC, if they all make their checks. But I don't think you can get 100 friendly flies at level 1.

But also don't forget the whip, that is a 15 (!) feet reach weapon, how many more squares will that add? I believe it's 32, another 64 AC?

But you do need 7+17+32 friends/allies. It could happen in an army battle.

118 AC total, 318(314?) if the flies buzz in. How broken is that?

Edit: Also, what if those flies would carry whips? Except the major penalties, suddenly each square goes from 1 to 100. I think I am getting insane here, but with 5700 flies with whips + 100 melee.
5.800 total, 11.600AC? I think the dice rolls would massively fail!
I think the lack of sleep is getting to me, either I just making a idiot out of my self by massive failing, or I just broke something very hard.
*starts laughing manically*

Animefunkmaster
2010-06-08, 03:45 PM
Realistically, there are better things than AC if you want to be defensive. Things like sanctuary, mounted combat, enlarge person (level1 this is killer, AoO to kill you before you kill me).

Flickerdart
2010-06-08, 03:47 PM
Well is that so. How can the familiars attack, I mean if they are entering the enemies square then why assume only tine size? We can have a hundred flies in one square (fine size,but does that fit with the medium creature? and wouldn't one hundred flies in a single square form a swarm? :smalltongue:

Well those one hundred flies can already add 200 AC, if they all make their checks. But I don't think you can get 100 friendly flies at level 1.

But also don't forget the whip, that is a 15 (!) feet reach weapon, how many more squares will that add? I believe it's 32, another 64 AC?

But you do need 7+17+32 friends/allies. It could happen in an army battle.

118 AC total, 318(314?) if the flies buzz in. How broken is that?

Edit: Also, what if those flies would carry whips? Except the major penalties, suddenly each square goes from 1 to 100. I think I am getting insane here, but with 5700 flies with whips + 100 melee.
5.800 total, 11.600AC? I think the dice rolls would massively fail!
I think the lack of sleep is getting to me, either I just making a idiot out of my self by massive failing, or I just broke something very hard.
*starts laughing manically*
That's the nanobots principle, yes. The trick is getting that many helpers.

Choco
2010-06-08, 03:49 PM
Do most of what was already mentioned, but instead of being something small sized, be a Warforged and take the feat that gives you FREE Adamantine full plate.

oprishon
2010-06-09, 01:19 AM
1) Basic stuff:
20 Dex, Gnome, 240 GP
If monk -> 18 Wis

16 AC Naked. (+5 Dex, +1 Size)
20 AC Monk (+5 Dex, +4 Wis, +1 Size)
23 AC Medium Armor (+2 Dex, +1 Size +4 Tower shield +5 Chain mail, 180gp)

2) Situational
Combat:
+4 AC Helping Friends (+2 per friend, can only help if they are in a square near you and attack that enemy)
+4 Cover
+2 Fighting Defensibly
___
10 AC Total in combat

Level One spells:
+4 mage armor (Doesn't stack with armor, no dex penalty)
+4 shield (Doesn't stack with shield, no dex penalty, self only, monks would need a scroll)
+2 shield of Faith
+2 Reduce Person (+1 (2 Dex), +1 size)
___
12 AC Total from spells.

Feats:
+1 Dodge (focused on one target)
+1 Combat Expertise (cannot be higher then BaB, wizards have a BaB of 0)
+1 Two-weapon defense (Doesn't stack with shield, does stack with the spell Shield)
+4 Mobility (versus AoO only)
___
Headbreaker! With fighter + flaws you can get all four!
+1 AC (just assuming Dodge for easiness)

Level two spells (only available as scrolls)
+6 Alter self (+6 Natural Armor,if used for a Troglodyte)
+2 Barkskin (Natural Armor, stacks)
+2 Cat's Grace (4 Dex)
___
+10 AC (14 AC for monks with adding Owl's Wisdom (+4 wis)




Wizard would lead to -> 16+10+12+1+10 = 49 AC
Monk would lead to -> 20+10+12+1+12 = 55 AC
If the monk makes all his scrolls checks. (Five checks total)
+Many many more conditionals of course. :smallbiggrin:

Edit: Looks a bit better.
Edit: And it's mistake time
Added Reduce person + fixed alter self.
Redid the math, I still think I am making a mistake somewhere.

Awesome!

Got one question: How come the feats are under situational? Shouldn't they be under Permanent?

oprishon
2010-06-09, 01:51 AM
So, sorting through the chart, this is the highest "permanent AC" you can have:

10 starting AC
+4 from Dex 18 before racial adjustment
+2 from Race: Halfling [how come you wrote gnome? Gnomes don't get +2 Dex, do they?] (1 through +2 racial Dex bonus and 1 through size bonus)
+6 for Tower shield and chain mail (-3 to Dex bonus, +4 for Tower shield, +5 for Chain mail) [It looks like there's a mistake in your Medium Armor assessment, up to here should only be 22]
+1 for Dodge (against one opponent only)
=23


To this you add situational bonuses, friends helping, short-term-use spells, other feats, etc.

Am I wrong about any of the above?

Thurbane
2010-06-09, 02:22 AM
If the above character has BAB +1 and the Combat Expertise feat, you can add +1 dodge to the above. A 1st level Halfling Fighter could have both feats.

10 base, +1 size, +5 armor, +4 shield, +2 DEX, +1 dodge (CE) +1 dodge (one opponent only) = 23 (24 vs. one opponent).

oprishon
2010-06-09, 02:50 AM
Ah yes. I had that in my list, removed it because I started adding things in as though they were a monk, and then forgot to add it back. So:

10 starting AC
+4 from Dex 18 before racial adjustment
+2 from Race: Halfling (1 through +2 racial Dex bonus and 1 through size bonus)
+6 for Tower shield and chain mail (-3 to Dex bonus, +4 for Tower shield, +5 for Chain mail)
+1 for Dodge (against one opponent only)
+1 for Combat Expertise (requires Fighter bonus feat)
=24

Hendel
2010-06-09, 03:13 AM
Do most of what was already mentioned, but instead of being something small sized, be a Warforged and take the feat that gives you FREE Adamantine full plate.

Warforged are not core.

Besides some of the mind-numbing goofiness on this thread, I would also avoid the idea of relying on your other party members to make your AC better. Make yourself fully self reliant.

Halfling Wizard: Cast Mage Armor, Shield, and Reduce Person (from 25gp scroll)
Dex 20: +5
Size: +2 (Tiny)
Mage armor: +4
Shield: +4

AC: 25 without any feats used and you are still a decent offensive threat with a sling +8 to hit from the back of the party and well defended at least until your spells wear out.

Cover and all the other situational bonus would still apply if they were available.

oprishon
2010-06-09, 04:30 AM
Warforged are not core.

Besides some of the mind-numbing goofiness on this thread, I would also avoid the idea of relying on your other party members to make your AC better. Make yourself fully self reliant.

Halfling Wizard: Cast Mage Armor, Shield, and Reduce Person (from 25gp scroll)
Dex 20: +5
Size: +2 (Tiny)
Mage armor: +4
Shield: +4

AC: 25 without any feats used and you are still a decent offensive threat with a sling +8 to hit from the back of the party and well defended at least until your spells wear out.

Cover and all the other situational bonus would still apply if they were available.

*nod* agreed. It introduces new and unneeded levels of complexity. Single characters only. AC 25 is pretty damned impressive, but Reduce Person and Shield will only last for minute (although at least Mage Armor lasts an hour).

Unfortunately, Wizards won't have a BAB, so they lose the use of Combat Expertise, but they can still take Dodge...

Eldariel
2010-06-09, 06:08 AM
Warforged are not core.

Besides some of the mind-numbing goofiness on this thread, I would also avoid the idea of relying on your other party members to make your AC better. Make yourself fully self reliant.

Halfling Wizard: Cast Mage Armor, Shield, and Reduce Person (from 25gp scroll)
Dex 20: +5
Size: +2 (Tiny)
Mage armor: +4
Shield: +4

AC: 25 without any feats used and you are still a decent offensive threat with a sling +8 to hit from the back of the party and well defended at least until your spells wear out.

Cover and all the other situational bonus would still apply if they were available.

Dex 22. Reduce Person grants +2. And you can just prepare it; I don't see why you'd need a scroll. Though offensively you'll be reduced to tossing Alchemist's Fires and casting Dazes, which is kinda bleh.

true_shinken
2010-06-09, 08:41 AM
Dex 22. And you can just prepare it; I don't see why you'd need a scroll.
Because as first level Wizard he only gets one spell plus bonus spell for high ability scores.
A specialist wizard would not need a scroll, though.

Eldariel
2010-06-09, 08:49 AM
Because as first level Wizard he only gets one spell plus bonus spell for high ability scores.
A specialist wizard would not need a scroll, though.

Precisely what I'm saying; you'll specialize in Conjuration or Transmutation anyways so might as well utilize the Trans bonus spell here.

Cogidubnus
2010-06-09, 08:54 AM
Halfling (+1 size), DEX 20 (+5), Mage Armour (+4), Shield of Faith (+2), Shield Spell (+4) + 10 = 26. Most CR 3 monsters would need a natural 20 to crack that nut. Best thing is, no spell failure from it, so you can be any class you want. Of course, fueling that for more than an encounter or two would be hard...

Rannil
2010-06-09, 10:02 AM
Awesome!

Got one question: How come the feats are under situational? Shouldn't they be under Permanent?
Because I feel that most of those feats are situational. They all have a extra requirement and need to be activated(free action, but still) or provoked.


So, sorting through the chart, this is the highest "permanent AC" you can have:

10 starting AC
+4 from Dex 18 before racial adjustment
+2 from Race: Halfling [how come you wrote gnome? Gnomes don't get +2 Dex, do they?] (1 through +2 racial Dex bonus and 1 through size bonus)
+6 for Tower shield and chain mail (-3 to Dex bonus, +4 for Tower shield, +5 for Chain mail) [It looks like there's a mistake in your Medium Armor assessment, up to here should only be 22]
+1 for Dodge (against one opponent only)
=23


To this you add situational bonuses, friends helping, short-term-use spells, other feats, etc.

Am I wrong about any of the above?

Yes I made not that great with making lists, but I could polish it and make it even better, but I don't think there is much demand for a list of highest AC.
I think I wrote gnome because my new char is going to be gnome, so everything small is now a gnome, or maybe because it's wizard gnome everything with magic is gnome. Bad excuses.
Mistake with medium armor, indeed 10+5+4+1+2 = 22, it happens.
Will fix those tiny mistakes in the main post.

Bumps up max 24AC vs one opponent, non magical, non combat, two feats. Not to complex and still really hard to hit by attacks.

But people, if you add spells the max is :
28 (16+12) AC with four spells. (Three arcane, one divine)
26 AC with three spells (three arcane or two arcane and one divine)
24 AC two spells (two arcane)
20 AC one spell (one arcane)
16 AC zero spells.

Problem is three of the spells only last 1min/CL, mage armor being the exception. That is going to cost at least 3 rounds of buffing and will only support one battle.
Fighters are a lot safer with their 23/24AC fully functional at the first round of their turn, every combat.

Rothen
2010-06-09, 10:07 AM
Problem is three of the spells only last 1min/CL, mage armor being the exception. That is going to cost at least 3 rounds of buffing and will only support one battle.


Wait, are we having a theoretical discussion here, or does it have to be anywhere near practical? :smallconfused:

Jair Barik
2010-06-09, 10:21 AM
If you had a White Raven using character in the party I think theres at least one feat that would give you an extra +1 untyped bonus, possibly some maneuvers too. And does the aid another action allow increased AC?

Rothen
2010-06-09, 10:24 AM
If you had a White Raven using character in the party I think theres at least one feat that would give you an extra +1 untyped bonus, possibly some maneuvers too. And does the aid another action allow increased AC?

Not core, unfortunately. :smallfrown:

Jair Barik
2010-06-09, 11:12 AM
Not core, unfortunately. :smallfrown:

Of course. How stupid of me. I'd been reading the other thread where they are using all kinds of craziness and forgot this one was core only.

jiriku
2010-06-09, 11:44 AM
From a practical standpoint, there's not much benefit to be gained from optimizing your AC above 24. At AC 25+, your additional AC is only helping you against foes with a +5 or greater attack bonus, and most opponents of CR 1 or less have attack bonuses of +2 or +3.

Honestly, anything above AC 20 is super-tanky at level 1 and should be sufficient for most games.

Lin Bayaseda
2010-06-09, 11:55 AM
I'm getting AC 35 in core, without Assist Other cheese and Cover cheese.

Halfling Wizard, Int 12+, specialist Conjurer. 3 spells per day. Starts with 120 gp.
Dex 20 (+5)
Small size (+1)
Dodge (+1)
Total Defense (+4)
Mage Armor (+4)
Shield (+4)
Protection from <alignment> (+2)
Scroll of Reduce Person for 25 gp (+2)
Buy a trained dog for 25 gp. Assist Other* (+2); he needs to have Charisma 18 and 1 rank in Handle Animal, and roll a natural 20, to make the DC 25 for "Push Animal".

AC 35, and still has 70 gp left in the bank.

* I said no Assist Other cheese, but this is not cheese, since he's using his own money to buy the dog, and is controlling it as a move action. Note that he can't control more than 1 dog, since that takes 2 move actions and he will lose the ability to go Total Defense.

Of course, it's possible to bring 20 friends for a massive assist-other-fest. Of course, it's possible to stand behind an arrow slit for massive cover bonus, but this, I believe goes against the spirit of the original question - since neither the friends nor the arrow slit are part of your starting gold or class features.

oprishon
2010-06-10, 01:08 AM
Wait, are we having a theoretical discussion here, or does it have to be anywhere near practical? :smallconfused:

Frankly, I'd love to see both :)

Hendel
2010-06-10, 02:40 AM
Dex 22. Reduce Person grants +2. And you can just prepare it; I don't see why you'd need a scroll. Though offensively you'll be reduced to tossing Alchemist's Fires and casting Dazes, which is kinda bleh.

Thanks, I knew I forgot something on that build!

Of course, you could go specialist and not need any scrolls, but for more than one fight a day at 1st level, you might want back up. Better yet, talk your DM into a wand!!