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Calemyr
2010-06-08, 09:23 AM
I have a vision of a character I'd like to play some time in the future. It is of a guy who uses a quarterstaff as his weapon of choice, but uses it to surprising effectiveness. Part of the goal here is to create a rather understated character, nothing fancy or impressive about him, just a rare ability to kick wholesale buttocks with the game's most common and most ignored weapon: the quarterstaff.

The two weapon fighting and two weapon defense feat lines are obvious feats to take to make use of the weapon, and I once toyed with requesting a custom feat called Longstaff Style that would allow the character to take more complete advantage of the weapon's versatility, allowing them to strike at reach similar to a spiked chain as a two-handed strike grasping one end of the staff.

Does anyone have any suggestions on how I could make such a character rather effective? I'm not looking to use any exotic races or classes, or to be min-maxed to the ears, just to use my options in a subtle yet effective way. The builds I've toyed with so far have all been human, a fighter/rogue (feats, bluff, and sneak attack), ranger (free dual wielding combined with the right sort of subtlety and utility), and monk (possibly the best choice, I know, but my least favorite of the three).

Dusk Eclipse
2010-06-08, 09:31 AM
1) don't bother with TWD line it is worthless and just cripples what I believe will be feat starved build
2)If you want to dual wield you need a source of extra damage (Skirimish, sneak attack, DFI, etc) so rogue or a swift hunter (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=103.40) is the best Idea
3)Don't bother with monk except as a two level dip to get some saves boost, bonus feats,

Hope that helps

KillianHawkeye
2010-06-08, 09:33 AM
The Lunging Strike feat from PH2 can simulate using the staff from one end to gain reach. You only get one attack, though.

There's also the Quick Staff weapon style feat from CWar, which boosts the effectiveness of Combat Expertise.

Beyond that, Improved Trip would seem to fit, but that's all I can think of right now.

AtwasAwamps
2010-06-08, 09:34 AM
I’ve had a similar idea kicking around in my head for some time.

Hrmm…there’s an exotic weapon that I think is called the “Longstaff” which you could potentially make use of here. If I recall correctly, it operates basically as the quarterstaff with some bonuses if you fight defensively with it.

That, however, is not why you would take it. You would take it so that you could qualify for Exotic Weapon Master and make use of the class feature that grants you the ability to add 2x your strength bonus when wielding an exotic double weapon as a two handed weapon and possibly the exotic flurry class feature. Potentially dip ranger to allow you to focus on strength AND have at least the start of the TWF line to allow you utilize the flurry attack when you need a lot of attacks and the two-handed attack when you’re only making one attack or charging.

And if you’re going for someone who is a straight up master of a weapon, I feel like you need to throw in some kensai levels. The surge power is a great combo if you’re getting extra strength damage from Uncanny Blow (I think that’s what the EWM feature is called).

Not really sure what else you could do. This could easily be done with a few levels split between fighter and ranger before hitting the PrCs, but this is really only a rough guide. I think the EWM levels help out, though. I know it’s not a quarterstaff, but I think the only difference is that this staff is really long. Might be worth looking at.

hamishspence
2010-06-08, 09:35 AM
"Me Ol' Bamboo" might be good theme music for a staff fighter :smallbiggrin:

AstralFire
2010-06-08, 09:42 AM
ToB Tiger Claw fixes everything. Again.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-06-08, 09:45 AM
ToB Tiger Claw fixes everything. Again.

+ (infinity) to this, I can't believe how I missed this, though I stand by my point that getting extra damage is a good idea. A swordsage wielding a staff in assassin stance with ________ mongoose seems like a good idea

Greenish
2010-06-08, 09:46 AM
ToB Tiger Claw fixes everything. Again.And for non-TWF strikes, you can use a staff as a two-handed weapon. Then some Diamond Mind strikes that don't care whether you use a wooden spoon or an adamantine greatsword.

AstralFire
2010-06-08, 09:46 AM
And with the other styles, he can take advantage of the fact that the staff is a two-handed weapon with which to club people and get double 1.5x strength bonus.


And for non-TWF strikes, you can use a staff as a two-handed weapon. Then some Diamond Mind strikes that don't care whether you use a wooden spoon or an adamantine greatsword.

YOU ONLY NINJAED ME BECAUSE I WAS UNDER MY POST TIME LIMIT.

Eldariel
2010-06-08, 09:58 AM
Consider Cleric or Druid too. Shillelagh, Brambles [SC] & Spikes [SC] are great Quarterstaff-enhancing spells and turn it into quite the fearsome weapon, really.

Cieyrin
2010-06-08, 11:23 AM
Consider Cleric or Druid too. Shillelagh, Brambles [SC] & Spikes [SC] are great Quarterstaff-enhancing spells and turn it into quite the fearsome weapon, really.

Making a Force of Nature Druid (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58604) may enhance this further.

Human Paragon 3
2010-06-08, 11:32 AM
I made a character like this once. I used Generic Warrior from the Unearthed Arcana, grabbed sneak attack, twf and power attack. That way, I could TWF with sneak attack (I used Versatile Flanker to get the most out of my sneak attack buck) on a full attack, and Power Attack on a charge or move-and-attack.

The build was pretty effective, especially because I could choose my own skills, and grabbed nice ones like Hide and Tumble.

It might be kind of cool to choose social skills as your class skills, so you can pretend to be just a nice guy with a walking stick, then unload on people when they least expect it.

Calemyr
2010-06-08, 11:50 AM
That was the idea, I wanted a guy who could very easily be mistaken for a background NPC with a weapon that would rarely, if ever, attract attention, but then could cause serious havok when the fecal material hits the rotary impeller.

AstralFire
2010-06-08, 12:00 PM
Swordsage it.

Mongoose87
2010-06-08, 12:15 PM
Swordsage it.

When a problem comes along, ToB it.

nedz
2010-06-08, 12:21 PM
Spirit Shamen (or Druid) for the Shillelagh/Brambles/Spikes/Entangling Staff sequence; plus a few other buffs.

Optimystik
2010-06-08, 12:27 PM
ToB fixes everything. Again.

Unnecessary text removed.

PId6
2010-06-08, 12:29 PM
Your two best options are, as always, casters and ToB. Alternatively, you can play a straight Daring Outlaw build, going Rogue 4/Swashbuckler X and wielding quarterstaff in place of the normal TWF weapons. Make sure to take Able Learner if you want rogue skills, Penetrating Strike and Craven for damage purposes, and Darkstalker if you want to sneak around.

AstralFire
2010-06-08, 12:30 PM
Unnecessary text removed.

ToB does not, in fact, fix haggis.

Mongoose87
2010-06-08, 12:32 PM
ToB does not, in fact, fix haggis.

Mild haggis is pretty decent.

Eldariel
2010-06-08, 12:37 PM
ToB does not, in fact, fix haggis.

Iron Heart Surge?

Human Paragon 3
2010-06-08, 12:46 PM
That was the idea, I wanted a guy who could very easily be mistaken for a background NPC with a weapon that would rarely, if ever, attract attention, but then could cause serious havok when the fecal material hits the rotary impeller.

Then you'll be very happy with the build I outlined. ToB is a great book, but none of the classes get social skills, and it's a fair amount of book keeping compared with the Warrior.

Mongoose87
2010-06-08, 12:48 PM
Then you'll be very happy with the build I outlined. ToB is a great book, but none of the classes get social skills, and it's a fair amount of book keeping compared with the Warrior.

Crusader definitely det Diplomacy, and I think Swordsage does, too. Crusader and Warblade have Intimidate and Swordsage ahs Sense Motive.

Human Paragon 3
2010-06-08, 12:49 PM
But nobody has the full suite, and Crusader doesn't fit the bill for this gentleman, anyway.

Eldariel
2010-06-08, 12:52 PM
But nobody has the full suite, and Crusader doesn't fit the bill for this gentleman, anyway.

A single Martial Study or Apprentice [DMGII] on level 1 gets you the last skill(s) you want, and that's assuming you don't just multiclass/Able Learner [RoD] for them. And Warblade is Diplo/Inti (you only need Bluff/Sense Motive to fill out the blanks), Swordsage is Inti/Sense Motive and Crusader is likewise Diplo/Inti. But yeah, socials aren't a problem with ToB types.

Draz74
2010-06-08, 12:53 PM
On the contrary. Tome of Battle classes might be a more "exotic" source than this fellow wants to use, but otherwise they are "exactly what the doctor ordered."

Which includes getting a decent smattering of social skills.

Swordsage does not, unfortunately, get Diplomacy. But Warblade and Crusader both get Diplomacy, and Swordsage gets Sense Motive. Those seem like the two best social skills for an "unassuming" type of character.

And the entire Setting Sun discipline of maneuvers seems perfectly in line with the flavor of this "unassuming," "don't mind me, I'm just a simple NPC" character.

So if I were wanting to make this character (and in fact, I have actually in the past created a very similar character -- a staff-wielder from a peaceful ascetic monastery, although my character was a Raptoran and was not opposed to wearing armor and so on), I would make it a multiclass Warblade/Swordsage. Just a few levels dipped in Warblade, mind you, mostly for the Diplomacy skill ranks.

If you pick the right maneuvers, you can end up being very "nonflashy" indeed. Yet very effective, too -- and effective because of using a Staff, not in spite of it. (That's what a Fighter, for example, can't duplicate. Even if you manage to make a good Fighter build with a staff, he would have been even stronger with a different weapon.)

EDIT: Eldariel's got a good point. Pure Swordsage can still pick up Diplomacy just by taking Martial Study (any White Raven maneuver). That's probably an even better fit for the character concept.

Human Paragon 3
2010-06-08, 12:58 PM
Hm, this is true. And in general, if you're open to TOB, it's probably the right choice. But some games don't use it. If this is the case, the generic warrior is likely your best bet. Otherwise, swordsage as the gentlemen above suggested.

Cieyrin
2010-06-08, 12:58 PM
Mild haggis is pretty decent.

I figured having haggis was a binary state. You either have it or you don't, regardless of implied strength.

AtwasAwamps
2010-06-08, 12:59 PM
Hm, this is true. And in general, if you're open to TOB, it's probably the right choice. But some games don't use it. If this is the case, the generic warrior is likely your best bet.

I've actually seen more people restricting Unearthed Arcana generics than ToB in my personal experience. Mostly because if you let one generic in, the guy over there playing the wizard takes a look at generic spellcaster and starts giving you puppy dog eyes.



I figured having haggis was a binary state. You either have it or you don't, regardless of implied strength.

My friend, Haggis is absolute.

Person_Man
2010-06-08, 01:04 PM
Options:

As others have already said, ToB FTW.
Eilservs School feat: When you strike a creature with a magic staff, it deals +1 damage for every 10 charges it contains. And if you strike a creature with both ends, you can activate one of the spells in the staff (on your target or on you) as a Swift action. Requires 2 ranks Spellcraft, Weapon Focus, TWF, and +6 BAB. Drow of the Underdark.
Spell Storing enhancement: A steal at +1. With it enchanted on each side of your staff and Eilservs School, you can easily deliver 3 spells in one round against your target(s), giving you a very potent mid-low level supernova combo. You just need UMD or Binder or a full caster in your party to charge it up before each combat.
Binder 5 (or Binder 3 with the Improved Binder feat) lets you bind Karsus. This grants you at-will Detect Magic (always keep this up while in a dungeon, as it will detect magical traps and some hidden enemies), Greater Dispel Magic on touch once every 5 rounds, the ability to use magic items as a Wizard of your Binder level, and +2 to the Save DC of any magic item you use. Works quite well with the above feat and enhancement, and/or any magic enhancement with a Save or Lose effect. Tome of Magic.
Forceful Staff Style: Poor man's Knockback. Lets you use Stunning Fist with a Quarterstaff, and gives you a free Bull Rush when you successfully do so. Although Monk builds are very troublesome, this has it's use with certain builds. For example, a nice DM will let you combine it with Pharoah's Fist (Sandstorm) which let's you use Stunning Fist for everyone in a 5 ft burst of your enemy, theoretically allowing you to Bull Rush all of them with one hit. I wouldn't suggest this, but it's another option. Ghostwalk.
Longstaff: If you fight defensively or use Combat Expertise while using this weapon, you can’t be flanked. Basically you trade a feat (Exotic Weapon Proficiency) for Improved Uncanny Dodge. Complete Adventurer.

Greenish
2010-06-08, 01:04 PM
I've actually seen more people restricting Unearthed Arcana generics than ToB in my personal experience. Mostly because if you let one generic in, the guy over there playing the wizard takes a look at generic spellcaster and starts giving you puppy dog eyes.Indeed, generic classes weren't even intended to be used alongside normal ones, and I don't think I've ever seen them used.

Human Paragon 3
2010-06-08, 01:09 PM
I use them rarely. Although they are not intended to be mixed with regular classes, I find that allowing them hasn't led to any issues. The warrior build in this thread, for example, doesn't greatly upset game balance. Indeed, it is a less optimal choice than going with ToB, and a strait fighter or barbarian build optimized for charging damage would be a stronger all-around choice.

PId6
2010-06-08, 01:14 PM
I use them rarely. Although they are not intended to be mixed with regular classes, I find that allowing them hasn't led to any issues. The warrior build in this thread, for example, doesn't greatly upset game balance. Indeed, it is a less optimal choice than going with ToB, and a strait fighter or barbarian build optimized for charging damage would be a stronger all-around choice.
Expert and Warrior are fine, but if you allow those, you're inevitably led to allow Spellcaster, and that leads to some extremely broken things (since it's basically wizard++). Most DMs just ban all three together, which is quite reasonable when they're not meant to be played with regular classes anyway.

Draz74
2010-06-08, 01:27 PM
Here's a Swordsage build, statted up at Level 6 with 28-point buy:

Human
Str 14, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 14, Cha 10
Swordsage 6

Maxxed Skills: Concentration, Diplomacy, Sense Motive, Profession (farmer), Listen, Heal

Feats:
Martial Study
Two-Weapon Fighting
Adaptive Style
Power Attack

Stances: Stonefoot Stance (SD1), Hunter's Sense (TC1), Pearl of Black Doubt (DM3)
Maneuvers:
Desert Wind: Wind Stride (L1), Flashing Sun (L2), Zephyr Dance (L3)
Diamond Mind: Sapphire Nightmare Blade (L1) (swapped out), Emerald Razor (L2), Insightful Strike (L3), Mind over Body (L3)
Setting Sun: Counter Charge (L1), Mighty Throw (L1), Baffling Defense (L2)
Stone Dragon: Stone Bones (L1) (swapped out)
Tiger Claw: Wolf Fang Strike (L1)
White Raven: Douse the Flames (L1, feat)

There. Ignore if the names seem extravagant; there's really nothing flashy about this guy. He's quick, but not acrobatic. He's strong, but not a hulking brute. He's very perceptive. He's not optimized (as far as Tome of Battle characters go) by any means, but he should do just fine in combat with his quarterstaff and no visible armor. (I recommend a mithral shirt under his clothing, and in general pumping his AC as much as possible, but I suppose he could even just do OK with padded or leather armor.) And most of all, his fighting style is to have an uncanny tendency to hit you with his staff in just the right place, and an uncanny tendency to dodge your attacks even when he doesn't seem especially nimble.

Calemyr
2010-06-08, 02:42 PM
Actually, I just had a new idea around this character. It's probably a very bad idea, but I was wondering what the consensus would be. Basically, combine the Swordsage with the Vow of Poverty to create a hermetic saint. It'd have to depend on the DM (vow of poverty being somewhat difficult to manage), but maybe a woodworker who spends his free time crafting wooden figurines for people. Find a way to offend him, however, and you learn that a simple wooden stick can be something to be feared.

Gnaeus
2010-06-08, 02:56 PM
Actually, I just had a new idea around this character. It's probably a very bad idea, but I was wondering what the consensus would be. Basically, combine the Swordsage with the Vow of Poverty to create a hermetic saint. It'd have to depend on the DM (vow of poverty being somewhat difficult to manage), but maybe a woodworker who spends his free time crafting wooden figurines for people. Find a way to offend him, however, and you learn that a simple wooden stick can be something to be feared.

Vow of poverty is almost always a bad idea. It is better for swordsage than for some low gear classes (like monk) because SS has good ways to bypass DR, but unless heavily houseruled magic items are almost always better.

AtwasAwamps
2010-06-08, 03:10 PM
I just looked at Shillelagh. What the hell?

You turn a mundane piece of wood that does 1d6/1d6 into a +1 2d6/2d6 weapon?

Oh, druids, you are wonderful.

Sir Giacomo
2010-06-08, 03:14 PM
I just looked at Shillelagh. What the hell?

You turn a mundane piece of wood that does 1d6/1d6 into a +1 2d6/2d6 weapon?

Oh, druids, you are wonderful.

Better yet, combine it at low levels with an enlarge effect and you have a 3d6+1 damage weapon (not counting the higher STR bonus and reach from enlarge).

- Giacomo

AtwasAwamps
2010-06-08, 03:17 PM
Better yet, combine it at low levels with an enlarge effect and you have a 3d6+1 damage weapon (not counting the higher STR bonus and reach from enlarge).

- Giacomo

I completely owe you a reply from like three months ago, don't I, Gia?

I'll get on that! Sorry.

nedz
2010-06-08, 03:34 PM
Better yet, combine it at low levels with an enlarge effect and you have a 3d6+1 damage weapon (not counting the higher STR bonus and reach from enlarge).

- Giacomo

And then you cast Brambles and get +1 to hit and +1/CL (max 10) damage.
And then you cast Entangling Staff for a free grapple and a further 2d6 damage.

Calemyr
2010-06-08, 03:54 PM
Thank you for the advice, I've already gotten some good tips that I intend to explore further.

I do, however, want to point out that I'm not looking for an exercise in absolute powergaming. I don't want to play a god of war, because I've played beside gods of war and things get tedious for everyone else. I just don't find it fun when things start focusing on powergaming over simply gaming, ya know? Instead, all I'm really looking for is new ideas how to make a character competetive without running the table. Does that make any sense?

AtwasAwamps
2010-06-08, 03:57 PM
Thank you for the advice, I've already gotten some good tips that I intend to explore further.

I do, however, want to point out that I'm not looking for an exercise in absolute powergaming. I don't want to play a god of war, because I've played beside gods of war and things get tedious for everyone else. I just don't find it fun when things start focusing on powergaming over simply gaming, ya know? Instead, all I'm really looking for is new ideas how to make a character competetive without running the table. Does that make any sense?

Absolutely. This board just tends to get carried away :)

And come on, let's be honest...imagine a quiet, unassuming man with a quarterstaff. Then you kick his puppy. Suddenly that quarterstaff turns into this hard-as-steel monstrosity with spikes on it and horrible brambly vines trying to grapple your puppy-kicking buttocks.

Now look me in the eye and tell me that's not DAMN AWESOME.

Critical
2010-06-08, 03:57 PM
ToB does not, in fact, fix haggis.

IHS the haggis away.

Eldariel
2010-06-08, 04:00 PM
IHS the haggis away.


Iron Heart Surge?

I have you beat by a turn :smalltongue:

Pechvarry
2010-06-08, 05:09 PM
I do, however, want to point out that I'm not looking for an exercise in absolute powergaming. I don't want to play a god of war, because I've played beside gods of war and things get tedious for everyone else. I just don't find it fun when things start focusing on powergaming over simply gaming, ya know? Instead, all I'm really looking for is new ideas how to make a character competetive without running the table. Does that make any sense?

Just as a further point of interest, it's my humble-unimportant-NPC opinion that vow of poverty will actually make for a more confusing character than the standard Swordsage. Your mileage may vary.

(My handle is, in fact, the name of an unimportant minor character)

Draz74
2010-06-08, 05:28 PM
Just as a further point of interest, it's my humble-unimportant-NPC opinion that vow of poverty will actually make for a more confusing character than the standard Swordsage. Your mileage may vary.

'Fraid I can't agree with that. When it comes to making characters to actually play in a game, and optimizing them to some degree, personally I find that at least 90% of the time and effort goes into their stupid magic equipment. :smallfrown:

balistafreak
2010-06-08, 05:31 PM
Vow of Poverty is more tolerable if you go all RAW/houserule happy on it and say that the even level bonus exalted feats aren't Exalted and can be generic.

(It's pretty hard to get this one by, but it does make it more tolerable for gear-reliant classes, hence the strange juxtaposition of houserule and RAW.)

/plug

Runestar
2010-06-08, 05:48 PM
Why not just take a simple 2-Handed weapon fighting build and substitute the weapon with quarterstaff? You can't trip with it, so no point taking improved trip.

The last time I played a character like that was in BG2, where my wiz1/fighterX dualclass used a staff of the magi. :smallbiggrin:

Calemyr
2010-06-08, 06:06 PM
Why not just take a simple 2-Handed weapon fighting build and substitute the weapon with quarterstaff? You can't trip with it, so no point taking improved trip.

The last time I played a character like that was in BG2, where my wiz1/fighterX dualclass used a staff of the magi. :smallbiggrin:

Actually, one of the inspirations for this build was the fighter/thief I'm playing in Baldur's Gate right now. Grand mastery with the Staff of the Ram? Absolutely devastating and stylish to boot.

Greenish
2010-06-08, 06:14 PM
Why not just take a simple 2-Handed weapon fighting build and substitute the weapon with quarterstaff? You can't trip with it, so no point taking improved trip.You don't have to trip with the weapon. Improved Trip is still good.

Pechvarry
2010-06-08, 06:25 PM
You don't have to trip with the weapon. Improved Trip is still good.

And works well with Quick Staff/Long staff and their combat expertise improvements (if your DM is nice enough to let you use said feat with said weapon). Penalty to attack rolls? Hardly matters with the touch attack and doesn't affect the ensuing STR check. And I'm under the assumption the Improved Trip free attack is performed AFTER the opponent is tripped (and thus prone), providing a +4 on the attack roll to offset combat expertise once again.

Cieyrin
2010-06-09, 11:50 AM
And works well with Quick Staff/Long staff and their combat expertise improvements (if your DM is nice enough to let you use said feat with said weapon).

I don't see why a reasonable DM wouldn't, considering you can share the Weapon Focus chain between the weapons already, so why not Style feats? Quick Staff requires WF(Quarterstaff), anyways.