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WarKitty
2010-06-08, 10:10 AM
Is there an established way to determine how silent someone that's trying to stand still is? I have a pair of first-level invisible fighters in heavy armor and I'd like to give the PC's a chance to hear them

AslanCross
2010-06-08, 10:14 AM
For comparison. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/listen.htm)

Given that the ACP will be -5 up, but the characters aren't moving, I'd put the DC at around 10.

KillianHawkeye
2010-06-08, 10:16 AM
Well, according to the Listen skill (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/listen.htm), whispering is DC 15, while a cat stalking is DC 19, so hearing someone breathing is probably around a 20 or so. I'm pretty sure there's nothing official, though.

unre9istered
2010-06-08, 10:20 AM
You could assume the still fighters are taking 20 on their move silently checks. It's not RAW but it makes sense.

WarKitty
2010-06-08, 10:25 AM
Well, according to the Listen skill (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/listen.htm), whispering is DC 15, while a cat stalking is DC 19, so hearing someone breathing is probably around a 20 or so. I'm pretty sure there's nothing official, though.

Yeah thanks. My party is level 7, and at least one if not most of them have listen maxed out. I figure it's hard for someone not trained in it to stand completely still though, and there's that matter of full plate...

Spiryt
2010-06-08, 10:40 AM
I suggest checking "invisible" part in "Special abilities" in SRD.

Quote that may be important :



A Listen check that beats the DC by 20 pinpoints the invisible creature’s location.

Ingus
2010-06-08, 10:41 AM
I would rule Listen vs Move Silently + 5 (circumstance bonus due standing still)

Greenish
2010-06-08, 10:41 AM
You could assume the still fighters are taking 20 on their move silently checks. It's not RAW but it makes sense.Except "Taking 20" doesn't work like that.

LibraryOgre
2010-06-08, 11:52 AM
I would say a +5-+10 bonus would be in line.

Curmudgeon
2010-06-08, 12:01 PM
A +5 bonus to Move Silently makes sense. That's the difference between moving at half speed and full speed, just in the opposite direction (to zero speed).

J.Gellert
2010-06-08, 01:59 PM
Well, according to the Listen skill (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/listen.htm), whispering is DC 15, while a cat stalking is DC 19, so hearing someone breathing is probably around a 20 or so. I'm pretty sure there's nothing official, though.

Aw man... Now I know I have a hefty Wisdom penalty. I've never heard a cat stalking in my life. :smalltongue:

Wonton
2010-06-08, 02:04 PM
Aw man... Now I know I have a hefty Wisdom penalty. I've never heard a cat stalking in my life. :smalltongue:

Maybe the cats were all at least 20 ft away. :smalltongue:

Drakevarg
2010-06-08, 02:18 PM
Maybe the cats were all at least 20 ft away. :smalltongue:

Or maybe DnD is just silly. On pretty much anything but a tile floor (claws), if a cat doesn't want you to hear it coming, you won't.

Greenish
2010-06-08, 02:42 PM
On pretty much anything but a tile floor (claws), if a cat doesn't want you to hear it coming, you won't.I've heard cats can hide their claws like Wolverine when they're not ripping at your face!

Cogidubnus
2010-06-08, 02:48 PM
I think this depends on cicumstances. If the air's fairly still, I'd say DC 15 listen check, with distance penalties, because it's impossible to stand still. You shift around, and in full plate, that's going to make audible noises. And as whispers carry, I'd say a similar DC is fair. However, if it's windy that armour's going to clank more and standing still will be more tricky, or if there's a waterfall in the background you won't have a chance on picking out the noise.

Drakevarg
2010-06-08, 02:50 PM
I've heard cats can hide their claws like Wolverine when they're not ripping at your face!

Enough to avoid ripping your arm open while you're holding them, yeah. But the tips of the claws still hit the tiles. On things like wood, though, this doesn't seem to be a problem (probably because wood has more give than tiles do).

Greenish
2010-06-08, 02:58 PM
Enough to avoid ripping your arm open while you're holding them, yeah. But the tips of the claws still hit the tiles. On things like wood, though, this doesn't seem to be a problem (probably because wood has more give than tiles do).Lions! Lions stalking their prey turn their paws around (like Rakhasas!) to make less noise! Exclamation mark!

Spiryt
2010-06-08, 03:01 PM
My dog does hilarious "clap clap clap clap clap clap" on the wood, yet when he really wants to be silent, he can avoid it somehow, even though dogs obviously can't hide their claws...

He looks really silly when he's caught in the middle of the stairs in sneaky mode. :smallbiggrin:

Another_Poet
2010-06-08, 03:06 PM
Personally i would rule they can't be heard. Since you want to give the PCs a chance, I would at least say it's extremely difficult.

I would give them a +10 bonus to their Move Silently.

clarinetman
2010-06-08, 03:10 PM
I agree with taking 20, it's not for the rules but it comes out to about 17 DC. Then give them whatever modifiers you want for them standing still.


Well, according to the Listen skill (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/listen.htm), whispering is DC 15, while a cat stalking is DC 19, so hearing someone breathing is probably around a 20 or so. I'm pretty sure there's nothing official, though.

Whenever my players continue making unnecessary listen checks again and again, I tend to say "You hear breathing" (Which is of course their own breath ;)

Mike_G
2010-06-08, 06:36 PM
I would make them roll Move Silent with a +5. It's not easy to stand completely still, and in full plate, even slight shifts in position will make joints rub together and make some noise.

In infantry training, when trying to set up an ambush, you'd be shocked how much noise slight movements can make. Equipment tends to rattle and clink and creak unless you are really careful about it, and that's modern equipment, which isn't plate or mail.

742
2010-06-08, 08:54 PM
standing completely still for a long period of time is waaaay harder than you would think; and armor is very loud. even in normal clothing and without the icky biological noises (not as easy to stop completely as you think) breathing causes tiny little ruffles in your clothes that are really annoying if your a perfectionist with good hearing.

start off at DC 15 or 20 and factor in armor check penalty/skill points/dex mod from there would be my solution.

Ellye
2010-06-08, 09:01 PM
If there's no background noise at all, hearing them shouldn't be hard. Unless they are specifically trained for that, standing completely still is pretty hard. And any small involuntary movement would makes noise, in Full Plate.

WarKitty
2010-06-08, 11:43 PM
So...in retrospect, I gave them a +5 modifier. Most of the party heard them, the rogue pinpointed. Which was about what I wanted.

Now I need to work on not getting my spellcasters splattered...

Draz74
2010-06-09, 01:55 AM
Hmmm. I have to say, my first thought for this thread was simply to use a Hide check vs. a Listen check.

Hand_of_Vecna
2010-06-09, 09:12 AM
@Psycho

If you can hear you're cats claws on tile it actually means their claws are too long. This generally happens because their not scratching enough this can be due to personality or not having enough things to scratch. If getting them more scratching toys doesn't work you should be clipping their nails.You have to be careful to only cut the tip as cats have nerves deeper in their claws.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-06-09, 01:22 PM
I would make it a move silently check while standing still to simply not be heard. The DC depending on circumstances, a forest with birds chirping is significantly easier, then a quite one.

One also needs to keep in mind how far the sound might carry. If you don't hear that clink of the fullplate until your 10ft away. Its to little to late.

Enguhl
2010-06-09, 01:41 PM
I vote its negligible... Sure moving at all will make sound, but you have a party of people walking around, not to mention ambient noise. So unless the party stops to listen (or its a party of people with high move silently while *actively* using it) I wouldn't worry about letting the party even roll.

QuantumSteve
2010-06-09, 02:15 PM
Let's see what the SRD has to say about invisible creatures.


A creature can generally notice the presence of an active invisible creature within 30 feet with a DC 20 Spot check. The observer gains a hunch that “something’s there” but can’t see it or target it accurately with an attack. A creature who is holding still is very hard to notice (DC 30). An inanimate object, an unliving creature holding still, or a completely immobile creature is even harder to spot (DC 40). It’s practically impossible (+20 DC) to pinpoint an invisible creature’s location with a Spot check, and even if a character succeeds on such a check, the invisible creature still benefits from total concealment (50% miss chance).

A creature can use hearing to find an invisible creature. A character can make a Listen check for this purpose as a free action each round. A Listen check result at least equal to the invisible creature’s Move Silently check result reveals its presence. (A creature with no ranks in Move Silently makes a Move Silently check as a Dexterity check to which an armor check penalty applies.) A successful check lets a character hear an invisible creature “over there somewhere.” It’s practically impossible to pinpoint the location of an invisible creature. A Listen check that beats the DC by 20 pinpoints the invisible creature’s location.

Well, shucks. There's rules for noticing an invisible creature that's standing still using spot, but no modifier for the listen check.

Still, the spot check gets a +10 DC for this so it would follow that listen may get the same modifier.

WarKitty
2010-06-09, 02:48 PM
Let's see what the SRD has to say about invisible creatures.



Well, shucks. There's rules for noticing an invisible creature that's standing still using spot, but no modifier for the listen check.

Still, the spot check gets a +10 DC for this so it would follow that listen may get the same modifier.

Ooo thank you, missed that. I wanted to make them work, but I didn't want an untrained fighter to be able to beat a rogue with 6 levels on him without even trying...

Bharg
2010-06-09, 02:51 PM
Aw man... Now I know I have a hefty Wisdom penalty. I've never heard a cat stalking in my life. :smalltongue:

Listener distracted -5?

Isn't there something like a difference between actively listening and passively listening characters in modified versions of the system?

jiriku
2010-06-09, 05:16 PM
Passive listening means you Take 10 on your check. Active listening lets you roll. The same applies to Search and Spot. Someone performing the same action repetitively or without much enthusiasm Takes 10, while someone focusing intently rolls the die.