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TripperdeCleric
2010-06-08, 04:25 PM
Looking for a 5 level skillmonkey/damage dealer build.


Just need a class array and the where they come from.


Thank you in advance.



*edit*

Oh and if you have a setup for stats best to worst that would also be helfpul...thank you again.

lsfreak
2010-06-08, 04:31 PM
For simplicity, Human Rogue 5.
Take Craven (Champions of Ruin), TWF, Weapon Finesse.
Look to take a level in Swordsage later (Tome of Battle, at 9th level, likely); grab Assassin's Stance and then the feat Shadow Blade. Those up your damage noticeably and give you more stuff that you can do.
Darkstalker (feat, Lords of Madness) and a one/two level dip in Shadowdancer can be very good for the sneakiness. Two levels gets you Improved Uncanny Dodge and Evasion, while still letting you get the ACF's Spell Reflection (PHB2) and the one from Dragonomicon that boosts your saves versus fear.
For upping skills, a one-level dip in Exemplar (Complete Adventurer) can be good. Taking 10 in combat on a skill can be good; combined with the right stuff it means you can full attack while Hiding/Moving Silenty and still have a good chance of not being seen.

Someone probably ninja'd me with factotum, but I still like rogues myself.

Optimystik
2010-06-08, 04:37 PM
How high are you going? Rogue has the edge in damage early on, but Factotums outstrip them there - and everywhere else - as the game progresses.

Hendel
2010-06-08, 05:12 PM
I was going to recommend a grappling Dire Ape or Girallon until I actually read the post.

TripperdeCleric
2010-06-08, 05:16 PM
we are hoping to play to 20 if not higher.

I need something that is useful and gets it done.

Flickerdart
2010-06-08, 05:18 PM
A Dragonfire Inspiration Bard can get both the skills and the damage, although it will be your allies doing it - with fistfuls of d6es on every attack.

TripperdeCleric
2010-06-08, 05:21 PM
Where can I find this..and does it have trapsense or something similar..im feeling that my dm is gonna be a jerk when it comes ot this.

Keld Denar
2010-06-08, 05:23 PM
You could also get an arcane twist in there. Rogue1/Wizard4 is a great start to get you into Unseen Seer (Complete Mage) for 10 levels, at which point you should automatically qualify for 5 levels of Arcane Trickster (DMG). An alternative to rogue would be a level of Spellthief(Complete Adventurer). This would cost you 8 skill points at creation, but opens up the fun that is Master Spellthief (Complete Scoundrel).

Probably best run on a Human chassis, with the Able Learner feat (Races of Destiny) to keep up with the "skill" role. Other relevant feats would be Craven(Champions of Ruin), Darkstalker(Lords of Madness), Split Ray(Complete Arcane), and Extend Spell + Persist Spell(Complete Arcane). For your Unseen Seer bonus spells, pick up Hunter's Eye (Spell Compendium), Divine Insight(Complete Divine), and possibly Grave Strike (Complete Divine) if you are encountering a lot of undead, or something else tasty.

Basically, concept is to hide and/or go invisible, then sneak attack people with ranged touch attacks from within 30' away. Has the added bonus of being a 19th level Wizard by level 20, with all the tricks and shananananananananiganary that comes into play there.

Greenish
2010-06-08, 05:29 PM
Where can I find this..and does it have trapsense or something similar..im feeling that my dm is gonna be a jerk when it comes ot this.Dragonfire Inspiration is in Dragon Magic, bards don't get trapfinding out of the box, and you shouldn't play with jerks (unless you're good friends).

TripperdeCleric
2010-06-08, 05:36 PM
good friends..but he knows I hate traps...



Ok about the unseen thing above..that looks pretty rockin from what you said...ill have to look in to it.



ill also look at that bard thing....I might need be solo though is what im thinking.

PId6
2010-06-08, 05:39 PM
You could also get an arcane twist in there. Rogue1/Wizard4 is a great start to get you into Unseen Seer (Complete Mage) for 10 levels, at which point you should automatically qualify for 5 levels of Arcane Trickster (DMG).
Nitpick: Arcane Trickster 5 doesn't offer you much. Wizard 5 is usually much better for that last level (Bonus Feat, or better yet Spontaneous Divination which combines very well with Unseen Seer).

Flickerdart
2010-06-08, 05:39 PM
The Bardsong applies to yourself, too, and lasts 5 rounds after you stop playing (or 10 rounds if you have a Harmonizing weapon or the Lingering Song feat). You'll be looking at something like +20d6 damage to your attacks at 20th level.

Edit: Arcane Trickster 5 gets you +3d6 SA, which is better than some measly feat, and a fair bunch of skill points.

lsfreak
2010-06-08, 05:41 PM
Edit: Arcane Trickster 5 gets you +3d6 SA, which is better than some measly feat, and a fair bunch of skill points.

And Arcane Trickster + Craven gets you 3d6+lvl :smallamused:

Flickerdart
2010-06-08, 05:41 PM
Well he's already getting SA from Unseen Seer, so he can have Craven anyway.

PId6
2010-06-08, 05:42 PM
Edit: Arcane Trickster 5 gets you +3d6 SA, which is better than some measly feat, and a fair bunch of skill points.
Arcane Trickster 4 gets you +2d6 Sneak Attack. Arcane Trickster 5 gives you Ranged Legerdemain 2/day (blech) (according to SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/arcaneTrickster.htm), anyway). You lose 2 skill points, that's it.

TripperdeCleric
2010-06-08, 05:45 PM
so unseen seer is the best option.


cuz after reading it it doesnt seem all that great..unless im missing something.


I can see where divination can help...but i seem to be missing the dmg output and the skill monkey part.

Flickerdart
2010-06-08, 05:45 PM
Oh...for some reason I thought the SA progression was as Rogue, or Assassin, or any other SA class. Stupid WotC.

PId6
2010-06-08, 05:47 PM
so unseen seer is the best option.


cuz after reading it it doesnt seem all that great..unless im missing something.
It's fantastic, actually. Great skill point progression, full casting, decent Sneak Attack progression (4/10), and decent class features. Divination Spell Power is easily negated via Practiced Spellcaster, so it's all positive from there. Advanced Learning grabs you some fantastic spells from the Spell Compendium (Hunter's Eye, Grave Strike).

TripperdeCleric
2010-06-08, 05:50 PM
ok it makes more sense then.


so whats the verdict take the arcane trickster dip or no?

Curmudgeon
2010-06-08, 05:53 PM
How high are you going? Rogue has the edge in damage early on, but Factotums outstrip them there - and everywhere else - as the game progresses.
Actually you've got that backwards. A Rogue of at least middling level will easily out-damage the Factotum because Factotum's Cunning Strike only gives 1d6, and there's no exception to the standard stacking rule to allow you to add a bonus to damage from that same source more than once. Add Skill Mastery, Savvy Rogue, and Knowledge Devotion and the Rogue just leaves the Factotum in the dust.

However, at low levels, before the Rogue gets significant numbers of sneak dice or qualifies for Skill Mastery, the Factotum has an edge due to Cunning Insight.

Optimystik
2010-06-08, 05:56 PM
Since you're interested in going the caster/SA route, have you considered Spellwarp Sniper (CSco)?


Oh...for some reason I thought the SA progression was as Rogue, or Assassin, or any other SA class. Stupid WotC.

There are plenty of SA classes without the rogue progression - Spellthief, Psychic Rogue, Lurk...


Rogue just leaves the Factotum in the dust.

Not if he uses Iaijutsu Focus.

Keld Denar
2010-06-08, 05:56 PM
Lets take a snapshot at level 10.

You have 1d6 SA from the rogue level, and 2d6 from Unseen Seer. Thats 3d6 base SA.

Now, your CL with Divinations is 12, due to USS's class features. 12/3 is 4. Thus, casting Hunter's Eye gives you an extra 4d6 SA, totaling 7d6, 2 dice ahead with what a level 10 rogue would have.

Now, from under the cover of Greater Invisibility, you cast Extended Hunter's Eye and say...a Lesser Orb of Acid.

5d8 + 7d6 damage is average 47 damage with just a touch attack, no save.

Next round, Hunter's Eye is still active, so you fire off another Orb.

Another ~47 damage, no save.

But, as a 9th level wizard, you have some 5th level slots, so you fire off a Quickened Lesser Orb of Acid for another ~47 damage. Thats nearly 150 points of damage in 2 rounds, all from the safety of Greater Invis.

Now, its not PERFECT. Things can True See you, or may be immune to Sneak Attack, or you just plain old might run out of attack spells. But...you are a 9th level wizard, and you can do a lot with that. Things like Evards Black Tenticles are BEASTLY for controlling non-flying enemies. Everyone in the party LOVES a timely Haste spell. Etc etc etc.

So yea...lots of goodies.

TripperdeCleric
2010-06-08, 05:59 PM
Ill def try it this run.

It seems like a solid idea.


Any suggestions for weapon use....or anyting along those lines?


Im playing a strange race that the dm is allowing..


but besides that point..would it be better to take human and be level 10 or keep my -5 levels for the race?

PId6
2010-06-08, 05:59 PM
Don't forget to take Extend Spell and Persistent Spell when you can. Grave Strike/Golem Strike/Hunter's Eye are good even if you cast them, but they're beastly if you Persist them.

For weapons, just use a bow. At lower levels, you should focus more on touch attack spells (Lesser Orb of Acid), but at higher levels you can do more damage via iterative attacks so a regular bow can do more damage.

Human, oh god human. And take Able Learner.

TripperdeCleric
2010-06-08, 06:03 PM
So I can start as what he stated above with a human?


at level 10?

Keld Denar
2010-06-08, 06:06 PM
That depends on what ECL your DM is starting at. In theory, all PCs should start at the same ECL. Your ECL is the sum of ALL of your +LA, ALL of your Racial HD, and ALL of your character levels.

So, if you are a +5 LA race, you'd start as a level 5 character to be ECL10. If you started as a +5 LA race with 4 racial HD, you'd only be a 1st level character.

Make sense?

Humans have NO LA or Racial HD, so using one would allow you to have the most character levels, which is prefered.

TripperdeCleric
2010-06-08, 06:14 PM
Imma go with the Unseen.




Any tips or suggestions or cool tricks?

Keld Denar
2010-06-08, 06:18 PM
At early levels, taking the Acidic Splatter feat from Complete Mage gives you a 2d6 at will ranged touch attack (albeit with a 10' range), as long as you keep a 2nd + spell with the [Acid] subtype memorized. Melf's Acid Arrow is a 2nd level one that works. Orb of Acid(Complete Arcane or SpC) is 4th, and Acid Cloud is 6th. There are probably a few others I'm forgetting...

TripperdeCleric
2010-06-08, 06:23 PM
Ok, So my goal is to stay back and deal damage and just be a strategist? Or am I a main damage dealer via SA. If so I SA with a bow correct? On the final note that im looking to fill in....hmmm... Im pretty much SA then casting for the damage loop as stated above.

Optimystik
2010-06-08, 06:36 PM
I strongly suggest fitting in 5 levels of Spellwarp Sniper. The capstone lets you SA from 60 feet away with ray spells, which already do plenty of damage on their own - you'll thus have many more options in battle.

It also has the same SA progression as US (i.e. 2/5 or 4/10) so you don't lose any SA.

Oh, and 5/5 casting.

TripperdeCleric
2010-06-08, 06:43 PM
would that be a better dip than arcane trickster?

Optimystik
2010-06-08, 06:52 PM
would that be a better dip than arcane trickster?

Take all 5 levels; Unseen Seer doesn't grant a great deal after 5 anyway (when you get Guarded Mind.) And it will accelerate your sneak progression, getting you that extra +2d6 sneak in 4 levels instead of 5.

In short - yes, much better.

PId6
2010-06-08, 07:01 PM
Take all 5 levels; Unseen Seer doesn't grant a great deal after 5 anyway (when you get Guarded Mind.) And it will accelerate your sneak progression, getting you that extra +2d6 sneak in 4 levels instead of 5.

In short - yes, much better.
I disagree. That last Advanced Learning can grab a lot of good stuff, while the third Divination Spell Power combines nicely with Hunter's Eye (UMD a Beads of Karma at level 20 for exactly +9d6 Sneak Attack). You also miss out on some skill points, which does add up after 5 levels.

Spellwarp Sniper, on the other hand, isn't really that exciting to me. Sudden Raystrike doesn't work with manufactured weapons (which does more damage due to iteratives than rays), nor with Orb spells. Sniper's Shot fixes the Sneak Attack range problem much better too.

TripperdeCleric
2010-06-08, 07:32 PM
What are some of the divination spells that are good to select from this unseen class ability?

PId6
2010-06-08, 07:42 PM
What are some of the divination spells that are good to select from this unseen class ability?
All of these are Spell Compendium unless noted otherwise:

Hunter's Eye (Ranger 2) - Gives you loads of Sneak Attack dice.
Grave Strike (Cleric 1) - Lets you Sneak Attack undead.
Vine Strike (Druid 1) - Lets you Sneak Attack plants.
Divine Insight (Cleric 2) - Very good boost to skill checks when you need it.
Find Traps (Cleric 2) - This one's from PHB. Gives Trapfinding and up to +10 to Search. Good if you're Searching for traps a lot.

Good wizard spells to have as well:

Golem Strike (Wizard 1) - Lets you Sneak Attack constructs.
Sniper's Shot (Wizard 1) - Gives you unlimited range on Sneak Attacks; awesome.
Guided Shot (Wizard 1) - Ignore concealment/cover and range penalties. Combines VERY nicely with Sniper's Shot and a good bow.
Cloud of Knives (Wizard 2) - PHB2, gives you an extra attack each round that deals Sneak Attack damage.
Heroics (Wizard 2) - Gives you a Fighter bonus feat, freeing up all of your feat slots for better things.
Wraithstrike (Wizard 2) - For going into melee, letting you turn all of your attacks into touch (pretty much auto-hit).

Besides Heroics (which has a nice duration with a simple Extend), ALL of these can/should be Persisted.

TripperdeCleric
2010-06-08, 07:44 PM
sounds pretty cool....with greater invis...are my opponents considered flatfooted allt he time?or is there some way to constant sneak attack?

Optimystik
2010-06-08, 07:45 PM
I disagree. That last Advanced Learning can grab a lot of good stuff, while the third Divination Spell Power combines nicely with Hunter's Eye (UMD a Beads of Karma at level 20 for exactly +9d6 Sneak Attack). You also miss out on some skill points, which does add up after 5 levels.

AL is nice, but the usefulness of divinations largely depends on the campaign. Most of the combat-related ones are already on the wizard list.

As for skill points, you get the same amount with SS as you do with AT, which is what he was considering anyway.


Sudden Raystrike doesn't work with manufactured weapons (which does more damage due to iteratives than rays),

...if they hit...


nor with Orb spells.

He'll only need those vs. spell immunes, he should have no problem breaking SR otherwise.


Sniper's Shot fixes the Sneak Attack range problem much better too.

You have to waste actions casting/activating it, it can be dispelled, it only lasts for one round, and it only applies to a single attack anyway, so all those precious iteratives mean squat.

PId6
2010-06-08, 08:06 PM
AL is nice, but the usefulness of divinations largely depends on the campaign. Most of the combat-related ones are already on the wizard list.
I've listed some above. Best ones I'd consider are Hunter's Eye, Grave Strike, and Divine Insight/Vine Strike, depending on DM's propensity for plants. I wouldn't really like dropping any of them.


As for skill points, you get the same amount with SS as you do with AT, which is what he was considering anyway.
You were suggesting replacing US levels with SS. Replacing AT levels would be better, but I still prefer regular Sneak Attack.


...if they hit...
Not hard to guarantee with the right spells and feats. Greater Reduce Person, Greater Invisibility/Blink, Knowledge Devotion, Haste, Woodland Archery, etc. You also gain access to Splitting with manufactured bows, which easily doubles your damage output.

And if you still have trouble hitting, there's always going into melee. A Persisted Wraithstrike pretty much guarantees auto-hit.


He'll only need those vs. spell immunes, he should have no problem breaking SR otherwise.
Also shooting into AMFs. And Orbs/manufactured weapons mean that you don't need to prepare/cast True Casting or Assay SR.


You have to waste actions casting/activating it, it can be dispelled, it only lasts for one round, and it only applies to a single attack anyway, so all those precious iteratives mean squat.
They're very easily Persisted, even without tricks. And between Divination Spell Power, Ring of Enduring Arcana, and Beads of Karma, it's going to be pretty damn hard to dispel your buffs.


sounds pretty cool....with greater invis...are my opponents considered flatfooted allt he time?or is there some way to constant sneak attack?
Greater Invisibility does it, as does Greater Blink. Grease also makes opponents flat-footed if they don't have 5 ranks in Balance (nobody does). Stunning also works.

Optimystik
2010-06-08, 08:24 PM
I've listed some above. Best ones I'd consider are Hunter's Eye, Grave Strike, and Divine Insight/Vine Strike, depending on DM's propensity for plants. I wouldn't really like dropping any of them.

You only miss one by dropping out of US at 5, and you don't even have to do that. In any event, I think the benefits are worth it.



Not hard to guarantee with the right spells and feats. Greater Reduce Person, Greater Invisibility/Blink, Knowledge Devotion, Haste, Woodland Archery, etc. You also gain access to Splitting with manufactured bows, which easily doubles your damage output.

With the same feats you're blowing on archery, I could be using to twinmax my rays etc.

As for the spells, see the response to your "True Casting/Assay SR" argument.


And if you still have trouble hitting, there's always going into melee. A Persisted Wraithstrike pretty much guarantees auto-hit.

Whereas SS doesn't have to go into melee at all and hits just fine.


Also shooting into AMFs. And Orbs/manufactured weapons mean that you don't need to prepare/cast True Casting or Assay SR.

There are spells you can warp that will ignore AMFs and SR just like Orbs will - e.g. Arc of Lightning. Just use those.

Besides, with your way you need spells and feats to hit (Woodland Archery, GRP etc.) How is that any different from preparing True Casting?


They're very easily Persisted, even without tricks. And between Divination Spell Power, Ring of Enduring Arcana, and Beads of Karma, it's going to be pretty damn hard to dispel your buffs.

It still doesn't apply to iteratives anyway, even if the spell stays up.
And I'd rather have zero percent chance of being dispelled.

PId6
2010-06-08, 08:46 PM
With the same feats you're blowing on archery, I could be using to twinmax my rays etc.
Knowledge Devotion is good by itself. Heroics provides for the rest.


Whereas SS doesn't have to go into melee at all and hits just fine.
Once.


Besides, with your way you need spells and feats to hit (Woodland Archery,
GRP etc.) How is that any different from preparing True Casting?
Most of those buffs a SS wants as well (Greater Reduce Person, Greater Invisibility/Blink). An US that doesn't depend on rays, however, doesn't depend on spending spell slots to attack enemies. I'd say that balances out the extra buffs they're casting.


It still doesn't apply to iteratives anyway, even if the spell stays up.
"Your ranged attacks made before the start of your next turn can be sneak attacks regardless of the distance between you and your target." I don't see where you're reading that it doesn't apply to iteratives.


And I'd rather have zero percent chance of being dispelled.
A SS would have nearly as many buffs that he wouldn't want to have dispelled anyway. The only real difference is that once dispelled, a non-SS US shoots from 30 ft away rather than 60 ft (though since Sneak Attack damage is much lower thanks to Hunter's Eye going away, you might not even bother attacking from within 30 ft). Not the end of the world.

Optimystik
2010-06-08, 09:04 PM
Knowledge Devotion is good by itself. Heroics provides for the rest.

For Heroics, (a) you need the prereqs of any feat you choose, and (b) you only get one feat per casting. Assuming you can even get Heroics to stack with itself and pick multiple feats, that's a bunch of slots tied up on a mediocre tactic.


Once.

You can't iterative with Orbs either, are they useless?


Most of those buffs a SS wants as well (Greater Reduce Person, Greater Invisibility/Blink). An US that doesn't depend on rays, however, doesn't depend on spending spell slots to attack enemies. I'd say that balances out the extra buffs they're casting.

No, he's just spending his spell slots on Heroics so he can actually hit.


"Your ranged attacks made before the start of your next turn can be sneak attacks regardless of the distance between you and your target." I don't see where you're reading that it doesn't apply to iteratives.

"Your next single ranged attack (if it is made before the start of your next turn) can be a sneak attack regardless of the distance between you and the target."

Only applies to one.

EDIT: Ahh, I was reading the CAdv version. SpC gave it a much-needed upgrade. Nevertheless, with Ray Mastery you don't have to worry about keeping a buff persisted in order to stay out of dodge and still get SAs, and you still have the option of grabbing a bow and using the options you presented, losing only 2d6 SA.


A SS would have nearly as many buffs that he wouldn't want to have dispelled anyway. The only real difference is that once dispelled, a non-SS US shoots from 30 ft away rather than 60 ft (though since Sneak Attack damage is much lower thanks to Hunter's Eye going away, you might not even bother attacking from within 30 ft). Not the end of the world.

Being 30 feet closer can indeed be the end of the world, depending on the circumstances. I agree that Hunter's Eye is great, but you can grab that with one of the other two Advanced Learnings anyway.

TripperdeCleric
2010-06-08, 09:21 PM
ok so grease and greater invis.

Thank you..that will make things amazing.

Thurbane
2010-06-08, 09:26 PM
Looking for a 5 level skillmonkey/damage dealer build.


Just need a class array and the where they come from.


Thank you in advance.



*edit*

Oh and if you have a setup for stats best to worst that would also be helfpul...thank you again.
Dwarf Fighter 1/Rogue 4. Wear heaviest armor you can (maybe mithril plate if you can afford it), and pump skills with no armor penalties. Note: a Dwarf can Tumble in medium or heavy armor, unlike most other races.

I built one of these once, but didn't see actual play. Can probably be cheesed out more if you wish.

Os1ris09
2010-06-08, 09:28 PM
ok so grease and greater invis.

Thank you..that will make things amazing.

So what is the build you are progressing with? I think that both builds are actually pretty solid. As to which is better comes down to how you want to play your guy.

Rog 1/Wizard 4/US 10/Arcane Trickster 5

or
Rog 1/Wizard 4/US 10/Spellwarped Sniper 5

or

Rog 1/Wizard 4/US 5/Arcane Trickster 5/SS 5

Personally I think the third build would be good I just dont know off hand what the last 5 lvls of Unseen servant get you....

Optimystik
2010-06-08, 09:51 PM
Personally I think the third build would be good I just dont know off hand what the last 5 lvls of Unseen servant get you....

+2 more Divination Spell Power
1 more Advanced Learning
+2d6 SA

That's it, really. It's better than AT 5, and the best option if you're using spells to buff and relying on weapons, but if you're using spells to attack you should probably go with SS.

TripperdeCleric
2010-06-08, 09:57 PM
Its honestly hard to decide...i like ATs impromptu sneak attack..


spellwarp could be cool..havent really looked over them yet..they are the ray users right...yeah..alot to work with on that.


I do like unseen though...its a great setup to give me some rp material and some power...but not sure if i need to go past 5...


We have a Warforged Juggernaut
We have an Elf 1Ranger/9 Druid
I need something to compliment this.

I know we have a cleric coming..and something else....

Optimystik
2010-06-08, 10:09 PM
What books are allowed?

Strongheart Halfling is a good choice, Lesser Drow and Lesser Tiefling are excellent as well.

For non-setting specific races, Grey Elf and Human are solid.

TripperdeCleric
2010-06-08, 10:55 PM
All books are allowed.


So far going with spellwarp sniper...had to find my complete scoundrel.


Yeah..i just like how they look. Seems like it will fit my character the most.

thank you guys so much for the advice and i welcome you to post more..ill read more tomorrow after sleepy.

Os1ris09
2010-06-08, 11:34 PM
+2 more Divination Spell Power
1 more Advanced Learning
+2d6 SA

That's it, really. It's better than AT 5, and the best option if you're using spells to buff and relying on weapons, but if you're using spells to attack you should probably go with SS.

This is why I posted all three build options that I saw as something that may be able to do what the OP wants. Honestly I don't know which one I would choose either. The third build seems to be the most flexible of all three IMO.

TripperdeCleric
2010-06-09, 12:18 AM
it does seeing as though i can choose to do multiple things for different situations...guess ill find out this afternoon..to see who chooses what so i know which path to take.

PId6
2010-06-09, 12:35 AM
For Heroics, (a) you need the prereqs of any feat you choose, and (b) you only get one feat per casting. Assuming you can even get Heroics to stack with itself and pick multiple feats, that's a bunch of slots tied up on a mediocre tactic.
They're 2nd or 3rd level slots (if Extended). Not expensive to keep around at the levels that you'd need it. Only a few feats that you really need anyhow; Point Blank Shot -> Precise Shot (for Splitting), and Woodland Archer. Everything else is just icing.

And they "stack" for the same reason that multiple castings of Bestow Curse or Resist Energy on different elements stack; it's not a bonus, and they're doing completely different things, so there's no reason why they wouldn't.


You can't iterative with Orbs either, are they useless?
They're situationally useful, but mechanical weapons are preferable most of the time. I'd use Orbs maybe when I can only take a standard action (though Splitting bow attack is often preferable) and when I am facing an enemy with high natural armor AC (though Splitting + Woodland Archer means that it'd have to be really high to matter). I'd much rather use a bow normally though, since it just does so much more damage.


No, he's just spending his spell slots on Heroics so he can actually hit.
It's three spell slots, of 2nd or 3rd level, which saves you from a full day's worth of casting attack spells.


Nevertheless, with Ray Mastery you don't have to worry about keeping a buff persisted in order to stay out of dodge and still get SAs, and you still have the option of grabbing a bow and using the options you presented, losing only 2d6 SA.
Except SS is still firing from 60 ft away at best, which is easily within charge range. With Sniper's Shot and Guided Shot, you can fight from 350 ft away as easily as from 60 ft. That's quite a lot safer.

And the problem with just grabbing a bow is that the bow should be your primary form of offense. Haste, Splitting, and iteratives mean that your damage is vastly superior to a single ray a round, after you factor in how often your Sneak Attack and Craven bonus damage is multiplied.

My 14th level Unseen Seer right now makes 8 attacks in a full attack (-0/-5/Haste/Rapid Shot, x2 for Splitting). Between BAB/Dex/Size/Knowledge Devotion/Greater Invisibility/daily cleric buffs/Greater Magic Weapon, he has +29 to hit, which improves if he misses thanks to Woodland Archer. Even without all of that, the much greater number of attacks still lets him hit enough times to outdamage one attack a round. And he always prepares some Lesser Orbs of Acid regardless, just in case. Damage-wise, he does 11d6 Sneak Attack, +25 for assorted other bonuses (including Craven). That's over 60 average damage per attack. From 350 ft away. No matter how you cut it, a single ray is not going to top that for damage.

In the unlikely chance that I get dispelled, I'd much rather just Teleport the hell outta there and fight another day. I'm a wizard; I have no AC to speak of without spells. Unbuffed, a single charge can shred me whether I'm 30 ft away or 60 ft away. SS is no different.

Os1ris09
2010-06-09, 12:50 AM
Quick question. Would practiced spellcaster negate the CL reduction from US?

Also as to the builds I don't know where woodland archer is from and splitting? Could someone point those out so that I may also offer my advice. My opinion earlier was just the class stuff not the feats or anything else.

PId6
2010-06-09, 12:59 AM
Quick question. Would practiced spellcaster negate the CL reduction from US?

Also as to the builds I don't know where woodland archer is from and splitting? Could someone point those out so that I may also offer my advice. My opinion earlier was just the class stuff not the feats or anything else.
Yes.

Woodland Archer is in Races of the Wild. Splitting is from Champions of Ruin.

TripperdeCleric
2010-06-09, 01:08 AM
Ill have to look into that also....need a bunch of options...but archer or the zapper seems cool.

Os1ris09
2010-06-09, 02:09 AM
Yes.

Woodland Archer is in Races of the Wild. Splitting is from Champions of Ruin.

Ok so I read the woodland archer feat. I dont have champions of Ruin so I can't read on splitting.

BUT if I had to pick a build I would do the following with these feats:

Rog 1/Wiz 4/US 5/SS 5/AT 5

1st Point Blank Shot
Flaw Precise Shot
Flaw Able Learner (or another feat if you're not human)
3rd
6th
9th
12th Woodland Archer
15th
18th

The empty feats are for you to choose. Personally I like flexibility more than being good at just one thing, aka glass cannon. I mean in any situation you find yourself at least useful because you can do something. With this build you can use regular weapons if you run into SR or magic immune creatures and if you cant hit with regular weapons you have your arsenal of spells to fall back on. IMO best build to take best of both worlds.

PId6
2010-06-09, 02:33 AM
The empty feats are for you to choose. Personally I like flexibility more than being good at just one thing, aka glass cannon. I mean in any situation you find yourself at least useful because you can do something. With this build you can use regular weapons if you run into SR or magic immune creatures and if you cant hit with regular weapons you have your arsenal of spells to fall back on. IMO best build to take best of both worlds.
Problem I have with Spellwarp Sniper is that it just doesn't really add much. You do the same amount of damage with rays with or without it, and you do less damage with bows/orbs with it. Ray Mastery isn't really all that great when Sniper's Shot supersedes it so much, so its only real feature is Spellwarp, which is interesting but not really all that good unless you focus on it a lot (which involves Legacy Champion). Whether that lone gimmick is worth another Advanced Learning, a Divination Spell Power, and loss of Sneak Attack with bows/orbs is your own decision, but I lean towards 'No'.

Oh, and once again, don't take Arcane Trickster 5. It offers nothing. Wizard 5 is far superior for Spontaneous Divination. I also wouldn't actually take Point Blank Shot/Woodland Archer as feats; Heroics does it much better.

Optimystik
2010-06-09, 08:28 AM
Whereas I still disagree - I think Spellwarp Sniper is unique enough to warrant a place in this build.

You are underestimating Spellwarp considerably - since the only requirements are "instantaneous spell with an area, range greater than touch" - there are a great deal of cool things you can do with it.

Want a no-save, no-SR ray? Arc Lightning, Blast of Flame/Sand.
400 ft. Ray for Sniper's Shot? Cacophonic Burst, Vitriolic Sphere.
How about a ray that initiates a +12 Bull Rush, no save? Cyclonic Blast.
A ray that Ignites enemies to burn in subsequent rounds? Firebrand.

How about some utility?

A ray that knocks enemies prone, no save? Ironthunder Horn, Earth Reaver, Great Thunderclap.
Damage enemy and teleport to his square? Firestride Exhalation.
Fatigue target, no save? Waves of Fatigue. (Bonus: Pinpoint target instead of risking your allies.)
Know where the invisible bastard is but can't see him to target? Dispel Magic Ray, aim at his square. Or Slashing Dispel for some added damage.
Damage/Break crystalline objects held by a creature, no save? Shout.

Note that SA damage applies to all of these thanks to SS. It will not with US alone, because US cannot warp them into rays.

The utility you gain makes up for the loss of iteratives - and face it, your BAB will suck anyway. Better to rely on touch attacks, and use your swift for more casting and your move to reposition as necessary (or reactivate your psionic focus for Psionic Shot, adding another 4d6 of non-precision damage.) Screw full attack.

Thanks to Spellwarp, you have no need for orbs. Hail of Stone works in an AMF - no save, no SR. So do Malevolent Miasma, Blast of Flame/Sand, Arc Lightning and Nauseating Breath (fort for nauseated, still ignores SR/AMF.)

And to reiterate - your sneak attack applies to all of these.

Bottom line - how anyone can consider SS more boring than US is beyond me entirely.

Kaiyanwang
2010-06-09, 09:05 AM
I was going to recommend a grappling Dire Ape or Girallon until I actually read the post.

Me too. I was thinking to ape-like races like hadozee or vanara :smallbiggrin:

true_shinken
2010-06-09, 09:13 AM
Equipment is very important for increasing sneak attack damage.
Organrippers (from Sinister Spire) are 3000gp daggers with sneak attack +1d6. Bracers of the Hunter (Secrets of Xen'drik) for another +1d6.
These are the cheap options. Mantle of the Predator, Rogue's Vest and both the Deadly Precision and Assassination weapon special abilities also help - each of them add +1d6 sneak attack (mantle of the predator actually adds sudden strike, I guess).
So, wielding a deadly precision, assassination Organripper and wearing bracers of the hunter, mantle of the predator and a rogue's vest, you get+6d6 sneak attack.

Kaiyanwang
2010-06-09, 09:16 AM
Equipment is very important for increasing sneak attack damage.
Organrippers (from Sinister Spire) are 3000gp daggers with sneak attack +1d6. Bracers of the Hunter (Secrets of Xen'drik) for another +1d6.
These are the cheap options. Mantle of the Predator, Rogue's Vest and both the Deadly Precision and Assassination weapon special abilities also help - each of them add +1d6 sneak attack (mantle of the predator actually adds sudden strike, I guess).
So, wielding a deadly precision, assassination Organripper and wearing bracers of the hunter, mantle of the predator and a rogue's vest, you get+6d6 sneak attack.

Isn't there some enhancement vs flat-footed enemies in the a cityscape WE, too? Something like another d6. Is not actual SA, but..

TripperdeCleric
2010-06-09, 10:25 AM
So far this morning I have been working with spellwarp the most. It seems like a nice little touch..and ive found a few cool tricks...mostly noted above by another. Ive been considering different starters and such to get to where I need. But yes so far it looks like this.




Rogue 1/ Wiz 4/ SS 5

Optimystik
2010-06-09, 10:46 AM
Rogue 1/ Wiz 4/ SS 5

You need 3rd-level spells for SS, so you're short a caster level. Dip into US for a level, then go into SS - the upshot is that you'll have 2d6 sneak going in instead of 1.

So Rogue 1/Wiz 4/US 1/SS 5/US +4 - character level 15.

From here, you have 5 levels left. you can actually finish US if you want; I would advise it over AT 5.

EDIT: This build actually makes my argument with PId6 moot, as you'll be maxing both of our suggested classes :smalltongue:

TripperdeCleric
2010-06-09, 11:04 AM
Ok, was a lil off...but yep..thats what im thinking...i might go ahead and finish the 5 in wizard instead?

Optimystik
2010-06-09, 12:33 PM
Ok, was a lil off...but yep..thats what im thinking...i might go ahead and finish the 5 in wizard instead?

It's up to you whether 4 extra skill points and +1d6 sneak are better than a feat at level 20. You can't really go wrong either way.

One point in favor of taking Unseen Seer to 10 is that you can then take it into epic - Improving your SA, advanced learning and divination spell power by +1 every 3 levels in addition to epic feats.

Os1ris09
2010-06-09, 12:43 PM
You need 3rd-level spells for SS, so you're short a caster level. Dip into US for a level, then go into SS - the upshot is that you'll have 2d6 sneak going in instead of 1.

So Rogue 1/Wiz 4/US 1/SS 5/US +4 - character level 15.

From here, you have 5 levels left. you can actually finish US if you want; I would advise it over AT 5.

EDIT: This build actually makes my argument with PId6 moot, as you'll be maxing both of our suggested classes :smalltongue:

HA I WIN OVER YOU AND PID6. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA...................... ........

Ok jk I didn't make an argument BUT I did suggest all three classes as a build. :smalltongue:

TripperdeCleric
2010-06-09, 12:44 PM
Lol...ok..thought the spell boost would help...if not ill be rocking unseen.

Optimystik
2010-06-09, 01:03 PM
Lol...ok..thought the spell boost would help...if not ill be rocking unseen.

You'll get more spells whether you go US 10 or Wiz 5. What Wiz 5 gets you is a bonus feat, which is of course nice... but epic US > more levels of Wizard, so I would work towards that.

TripperdeCleric
2010-06-09, 02:05 PM
Ok, the dm is coming over today so gonna throw this his way..heh.

Os1ris09
2010-06-09, 02:16 PM
Ok, the dm is coming over today so gonna throw this his way..heh.

Good luck. Just don't choose too cheesy of tactics. Keep it pretty basic and what not so as to not Overshine the other PC's. GOOD LUCK :smallbiggrin:

Optimystik
2010-06-09, 02:19 PM
Good luck. Just don't choose too cheesy of tactics. Keep it pretty basic and what not so as to not Overshine the other PC's. GOOD LUCK :smallbiggrin:

And whenever you kill a monster, blow imaginary smoke off the "barrel" of your index finger :smallsmile:

Os1ris09
2010-06-09, 02:28 PM
And whenever you kill a monster, blow imaginary smoke off the "barrel" of your index finger :smallsmile:

Isn't that more of a Warlock thing...... JK:smallbiggrin:

TripperdeCleric
2010-06-09, 05:56 PM
He said no...

but he gave me


assassin 5/Spellwarp Sniper 2...with access to the wizard spell list....

Os1ris09
2010-06-09, 05:57 PM
He said no...

but he gave me


assassin 5/Spellwarp Sniper 2...with access to the wizard spell list....

He said no.... What was his reasoning... the build wasn't cheesy at all by any means......

Dusk Eclipse
2010-06-09, 05:58 PM
Assassin as a base class?

DragoonWraith
2010-06-09, 05:58 PM
Assassin is a Prestige Class. Not a bad one, either, though not really that great for what you're going for. What is he assuming for entry to the Assassin? Rogue 5/Assassin 5/Spellwarp Sniper 2? Or what?

And yeah, what was his reasoning on this?

Dusk Eclipse
2010-06-09, 05:59 PM
Assassin is a Prestige Class. Not a bad one, either, though not really that great for what you're going for. What is he assuming for entry to the Assassin? Rogue 5/Assassin 5/Spellwarp Sniper 2? Or what?

And yeah, what was his reasoning on this?

I know that Assassin is a prestige class, but I have seen some hombrew of it as a base one, so I was curious:smalltongue:.

DragoonWraith
2010-06-09, 06:03 PM
I was talking to Tripper, actually, wondering what his DM meant by Assassin 5/Spellwarp Sniper 2...

TripperdeCleric
2010-06-09, 06:04 PM
He modified it as a base for the idea i gave him.
He said he didnt like the idea of the whole divine rogue setup...and saw it as potentially becoming broken....
So I think its not a bad trade off for right now, going to abuse the spellwarp.


SpellWarp = My most Favorite PRC

Dusk Eclipse
2010-06-09, 06:05 PM
I was talking to Tripper, actually, wondering what his DM meant by Assassin 5/Spellwarp Sniper 2...

Ok, ok then

DragoonWraith
2010-06-09, 06:07 PM
He modified it as a base for the idea i gave him.
He said he didnt like the idea of the whole divine rogue setup...and saw it as potentially becoming broken....
So I think its not a bad trade off for right now, going to abuse the spellwarp.


SpellWarp = My most Favorite PRC
Divine? No one suggested any Divine casting... there were Divinations, which can be Arcane as easily as Divine... But you can't qualify for any of these PrCs as a Divine caster. And there is no way that a Rogue/Wizard/Spellwarp Sniper/Unseen Seer could be overpowered that a Wizard couldn't do more easily single-classed. Seriously.

Os1ris09
2010-06-09, 06:09 PM
He modified it as a base for the idea i gave him.
He said he didnt like the idea of the whole divine rogue setup...and saw it as potentially becoming broken....
So I think its not a bad trade off for right now, going to abuse the spellwarp.


SpellWarp = My most Favorite PRC

hold on divine rogue? are you refering to an ACF? Personally I don't think the build was broken at all like a dragonwrought pa zuzu build......

but hey he is your DM and he is god in that game

Edit: Agree with goon above

Greenish
2010-06-09, 06:09 PM
He said he didnt like the idea of the whole divine rogue setup...You could've pointed out that you were going for an arcane rogue. :smallwink:

Keld Denar
2010-06-09, 06:12 PM
I think by divine rogue, he was refering to rogue + divinations from Unseen Voyeur Seer, most notably picking up Hunter's Eye to effectively double your SA damage per round.

Strong, but hardly OP, especially not before you can Persist Hunter's Eye, due to spell slot attrition.

TripperdeCleric
2010-06-09, 06:19 PM
We talked about it. Yeah i meant divination rogue sorry.


he sees it as being too much compared to the other party members. Being mostly thier first-second time playing...I gotta cut it back a bit.


So Assassin 5/spellwarp sniper 2...any suggestions?

Keld Denar
2010-06-09, 06:21 PM
What do you mean by Assassin5? Is there some Assassin base class you are working from? We need more info...

TripperdeCleric
2010-06-09, 06:30 PM
Assassin 5...the prestige has been made into a base class for myself.
It is the assassin class....but weapon profficiencies include all light weapons
He said he will be working on altering it more tonight and send me the final copy. But in general he will be changing the saves and bab.

PId6
2010-06-09, 06:31 PM
Sooo... what happens when you're Assassin 11?

TripperdeCleric
2010-06-09, 06:32 PM
Very good question, I guess follow the progression. Have to wait for him to send me the final containing all 20.
Most likely not going to follow all 20, planning on taking prestige dips to get some type of power going..tis why i show spellwarp sniper.

Os1ris09
2010-06-09, 06:38 PM
Personally I think he fubared your guy entirely. I really think your new guys should see this guy in action and learn from it.

PId6
2010-06-09, 06:46 PM
Well, if he takes the original assassin's spellcasting and tacks on more of it at the end, it can potentially be quite good. By the current progression, you'd basically have equal to wizard spellcasting up to 9th level, though with fewer slots. That's obscenely powerful.

If he takes "casts just as a bard does" a bit further and gives you the bard casting progression, which is more reasonable, the spellcasting is good enough to keep but you'll never have the most powerful spells and you'll have a hard time Persisting anything. Assuming regular Sneak Attack progression, you'd be just a rogue with spellcasting, which is pretty strong.

However, if he sees the 4th level limitation and changes assassin spellcasting to the equivalent of paladin/ranger's, basically stretching the same 10 level progression to 20 levels, it's beyond worthless and you should multiclass/PrC out at first opportunity and get better casting.

So yeah, show us the class once you get it and we can give advice then.

TripperdeCleric
2010-06-09, 06:58 PM
Ok so far this is what he has for me.

Every 5 levels after 10...so 15/20 I gain access to a new rank of spells..meaning I go up to 6th level spells.

progressions i the same in all other categories. He is allowing the sorcerer type casting...on the spot not memorized.

The reason he has setup this class this way is because the spellwarp sniper intrigued my interests and he wants me to be able to enjoy it and give me an easy base. Now for my idea...im thinking of course doing SA rays.

Also starting at 11 and every 3 levels I gain a bonus feat.

Anything I missed?

Edit: He says I need to choose an orginization.

Os1ris09
2010-06-09, 07:07 PM
Crap..... I mean sorry. lol that may work but I don't see how he is gonna expand your spell selection. Assassin is assassin and I don't know if your gonna get any other spells other than assassin.......

Flickerdart
2010-06-09, 07:07 PM
You should work out exactly what spells are to be on the Assassin list. It's quite pathetic as-is, so try to get a few more spells of levels you can cast on it as well as 5th and 6th level spells.

Edit: Assassin'd!

TripperdeCleric
2010-06-09, 07:08 PM
He said pick spells from the wizard list...but of course stay somewhere on the assassins track of damage and survival and such.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-06-09, 07:13 PM
try to get some spells that serve as distractions or disguises, illusion has loads of stuff that may be useful to assassins, enchantment is somewhat fitting Charm the guards that protect your target for example

TripperdeCleric
2010-06-09, 07:31 PM
Gotta make sure i give the spellwarp sniper some arsenal though....fireball? or are there better?

PId6
2010-06-09, 07:36 PM
Your spells are still a bit weak (no 6th level until 20th...), so see if you can get some Sublime Chord in there. Try Bard 1/Assassin 5/Spellwarped Sniper 4/Sublime Chord 1/Spellwarped Sniper +1/Arcane Trickster 8. You'll end up with full Sublime Chord spellcasting, nearly full Assassin spellcasting (which has some great spells in Spell Compendium), and 7d6 Sneak Attack with 2d6 more for rays. This probably requires human with Able Learner at 1st level so you can fit in all of the skill prerequisites.

TripperdeCleric
2010-06-09, 07:42 PM
Doesnt spellwarp sniper give assassin some casting levels?

PId6
2010-06-09, 07:49 PM
It advances assassin casting, yes. But the assassin's casting is inherently uninteresting past 7th level, so you're much better off going into something that continues your spell level progression (aka Sublime Chord).

TripperdeCleric
2010-06-09, 07:52 PM
What book is sublime cord?

Is there another class that can do something similar?

Eldariel
2010-06-09, 07:59 PM
What book is sublime cord?

Is there another class that can do something similar?

It's in Complete Arcane and no, not really. It's a fast progression arcane class and those are few and far between; Beholder Mage is another one, but not available without trickery for obvious reasons.

TripperdeCleric
2010-06-09, 08:00 PM
Ok ill look into it.

Os1ris09
2010-06-10, 04:27 AM
I don't know exactly what build you proposed to your DM but try this one:

Rog 1/Wizard 5/US 10/SS 4

The build is alot simpler and just take some ordinary spells. Nothing that makes you incredibly potent as suggested before but Ray spells and the like that seem interesting to you. You know your DM better than me obviously so try to make a argument that suites their personality and that will convince them you should be allowed to play this character. Otherwise your character will be subpar in comparison.