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Corporate M
2010-06-09, 03:21 AM
I forgot who proposed the idea, (it wasn't me) but why not give the fighter a bonus feat progression like the sorcerer's spells known?

Fighters are the only class who don't gain feats by hit die and with rules. However, feats he gains from his bonus feats do not have to meet any prequisites. Be it stat, former feats, skillranks, etc. The only thing is he's limited to the level his bonus feat can be from. Which now feats are seperated in level. There are so many feats that this would have to be more of a case by case basis of the DM deciding how powerful he think a feat is not having to take other feats for it.

Proficietcy feats for example would undoutedly be level 0 since they don't really contribute much. I'd say weapon focus/specialization would be too, whilest greater weapon focus/specialization would be level 1 if only because they're strictly better.

Old Fighter: 18 feats, with a whole lot of simulations and narrow paths that can be taken.

New Fighter: 43 feats, with the only stimulation being level based, and the only limitation to path is what you can function with class-wise. (So you could take class ability feats, but would still need the class ability to make use out of them even though you don't need to meet the prequisites)


This does leave some room for abuse admittedly. The fighter was already a dip class, now he's even more of a dip class, but now he's more of a mystic theurge type dip class. It's not just one or two levels, but inorder to get those class abilities it'll need to be more like six or seven levels...


This also leaves room for homebrew feats that the DM can seperate by level. The best classes are the ones that can be customized. I'd say this redition puts the fighter in comparible measures to the tome of battle classes. Perhaps not possessing as many direct damage dealing, "fighting magic". But alot more permanent combat control when he doesn't need to revolve his whole build around one trick, and can bull-rush, trip, cleave, and whirlwind all back-to-back.

Eloi
2010-06-09, 03:28 AM
I don't think this 'fixes' the fighter so much as it 'breaks it in a different way'. Sorry mate.

Altair_the_Vexed
2010-06-09, 04:07 AM
Greater Weapon specialisation should be a "Level 1" feat?
You need to have a BAB of 12 to take this feat (fighter level 12), by the RAW... and you want to suggest it's allowed at 1st level?

Call it 3rd level and we have a deal. :smallwink:

Spring Attack without needing to muck about taking the lower feats inthe chain. Great Cleave, Shot on the Run, Manyshot, and Whirlwind Attack - without the prerequisites.
I don't need all 43 feats, I'll just take those.

EDIT: Okay - I should be more constructive.

If you leave the prerequisites in, and add 9 "levels" to the Fighter Feats, and apply a Sorcerer-based Feats per Level progression, then you've got a better fix - but it still leaves the Fighter with just a bunch of mundane tricks compared with the awesome cosmic power of the caster classes.

I reckon you should throw in the heroic talents for the Strong (http://www.d20resources.com/modern.d20.srd/classes/basic/strong.hero.php), Tough (http://www.d20resources.com/modern.d20.srd/classes/basic/tough.hero.php) and Fast (http://www.d20resources.com/modern.d20.srd/classes/basic/fast.hero.php)classes from d20 modern. Those would pad out the Fighter feat list to be a bit more worthwhile.

Ashtagon
2010-06-09, 04:16 AM
Greater Weapon specialisation should be a "Level 1" feat?
You need to have a BAB of 12 to take this feat (fighter level 12), by the RAW... and you want to suggest it's allowed at 1st level?

Here's the problem. By RAW, it's a character level 12 feat. It grants a flat +2 damage with a single weapon type. At the same level, wizards are getting their first flesh to stone spells, and casting fireballs whilst invisible every encounter.

Clearly, it isn't something that should b e 1st level. +2 damage isn't that trivial. But neither is it really 12th level.

Altair_the_Vexed
2010-06-09, 04:26 AM
Here's the problem. By RAW, it's a character level 12 feat. It grants a flat +2 damage with a single weapon type. At the same level, wizards are getting their first flesh to stone spells, and casting fireballs whilst invisible every encounter.

Clearly, it isn't something that should b e 1st level. +2 damage isn't that trivial. But neither is it really 12th level.

Agreed. I've edited my post while you were ninjaing in to comment.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2010-06-09, 09:19 AM
Clearly, it isn't something that should be 1st level. +2 damage isn't that trivial.

Entirely untrue. Magic Weapon, a 1st level Wizard spell, gives a +1 bonus to attack rolls, a +1 bonus to damage rolls, and allows you to overcome a lot of damage reduction. +2 damage is actually weaker than Magic Weapon, if not by much...and further, Magic Weapon is in no way one of the strongest 1st level spells.

I'd say Weapon Specialization is entirely justified at 1st level. 2nd at the absolute most.

Ashtagon
2010-06-09, 10:22 AM
Entirely untrue. Magic Weapon, a 1st level Wizard spell, gives a +1 bonus to attack rolls, a +1 bonus to damage rolls, and allows you to overcome a lot of damage reduction. +2 damage is actually weaker than Magic Weapon, if not by much...and further, Magic Weapon is in no way one of the strongest 1st level spells.

I'd say Weapon Specialization is entirely justified at 1st level. 2nd at the absolute most.

The magic weapon spell is weaker, because it can only be used for one fight per casting, and because it is limited by castings, incurs an opportunity cast, in that memorising it stops you from memorising another spell. The feat is constant, requires no special action to activate, does not expire, and incurs no opportunity cost.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2010-06-09, 11:07 AM
The magic weapon spell is weaker, because it can only be used for one fight per casting, and because it is limited by castings, incurs an opportunity cast, in that memorising it stops you from memorising another spell. The feat is constant, requires no special action to activate, does not expire, and incurs no opportunity cost.

Taking Weapon Specialization requires me to not take another, better feat. It can't help me hit more accurately, and can't really help me overcome damage reduction. It uses a resource much more limited than a spellbook.

I'd still say the two are roughly equal. Remember what I said...Magic Weapon is not a strong 1st level spell. Compare +2 damage to the ability to cast Sleep and end an encounter. I'd much rather have the sleep spell.

At 3rd level, with Bull's Strength, I can get +2 attack, +2 or +3 damage, and +2 to all Strength based abilities. +2 damage pales in comparison to 2nd level spells.

Mogrii
2010-06-10, 09:36 AM
I've seen a lot o fighter fixes, both in this board and -mainly- in the old WotC boards. As a previous poster said, this just breaks the fighter in a different way.
The main complaint is that, unlike spells and other class abilities the fighter lacks, feats do not scale in power. You take a feat and it stays the same. Your weapon focus feat will grant you a +1 to hit from level 1 thru 20, and that just wont do.
What I'm doing my games is to advance the feats based on fighter levels. All fighter bonus feats now grant a special fighter benefit. Say, Weapon Focus, +1 to hit when you take it, keep it going for 5 fighter levels and its now +2, another five levels and its +3 and so on. Weapon Specialization would follow a similar path, +2 to hit when you take it and an extra +2 for every five fighter levels. Granted, there are feats with benefits that are a little more difficult to upgrade, but you can always grant a '+1 to hit bonus when using this feat' or the like.
Its not perfect, but as time goes by the fighter really becomes a force to be feared, maybe not like full caster but a lot better than it is now.
Throw in a few homebrew feats (that warblade ability to change feat specific weapons? that screams fighter bonus feat to me!) and you are set.
Lastly, another modification I made to pretty up the fighter at high levels is to skip that +20 BAB at level 20th and change it to a +21BAB, allowing him a 5th iterative attack, totally stackable with extra attacks granted by magical effects and feats since its from base attack bonus.

Think about it, all a fighter's got are his feats, so its logical he will be the best there is at using them. This takes nothing from other classes and humps this guy with a sword to the top of the melee classes, for all the good that is.

Lix Lorn
2010-06-10, 06:14 PM
I've seen loads of different fixes, and the only ones that seem to get any acclaim are the ones that make completely new rules entirely.

Like mine.

When I tried fixes, I did one thing like Mogril: I gave them a better than full BAB.