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theos911
2010-06-09, 08:26 AM
This thread is designed to be a place for people with a knowledge or love of an obscure class to expound on that knowledge to others. The idea is to post a semi-summary, the classes pros and cons, and why you like it. Also include why you think people may disregard this class, and why they shouldn't. Since I'm not very experienced I, myself will not be posting an entry(So much for that), but they should look as follows.

Class Name (Book and page if known)

What this class does and how to play one well/classy/or fun.

Cool things it does.

Less cool things it can't do.

Why people shouldn't ignore or disregard it.

Please no bashing of people about the classes they post, or about how that class sucks/is stupid/ineffective/insert random negative connotation adjective here. If you want to argue go somewhere else. This is designed to spread knowledge and be fun, don't ruin it for people.

and...GO!!!

@subject42 Prestige classes are allowed

They don't have to be unknown, but rather ones not commonly seen, that people might not be aware of or that people might not like(shooting self in foot here). They don't have to be unknown, just interesting and likable(or just your favorite).

If you don't have an entry, feel free to make constructive comments about builds or ideas that employ a mentioned class.

I will try to post something in response to each class shown, as well as answer questions that I'm qualified to answer. I hope others will do the same.

subject42
2010-06-09, 09:20 AM
Assuming you allow prestige classes.

Dread Witch (Heroes of Horror)

Dread witch is a caster prestige class that specializes in fear and terror.

It can absorb fear effects that are laid on them and use them to boost their spells or cast spells as immediate actions. Also, your fear effects are cast at a higher DC and can effect things that are normally immune to fear.

Unfortunately, you lose a caster level.

If you've ever wanted to see the party paladin run screaming like a little girl from a gnome, use this class.

true_shinken
2010-06-09, 09:21 AM
Dread Witch is nowhere near unknown...

subject42
2010-06-09, 09:23 AM
Dread Witch is nowhere near unknown...


Please no bashing of people about the classes they post

Beyond that, I hadn't seen it until a few months ago, and I'm fairly beardy.

Optimystik
2010-06-09, 09:24 AM
Dread Witch is nowhere near unknown...

It isn't quite popular though - especially since it shares a book with Fiend-Blooded and Tainted Scholar :smalltongue:

Anyhow, I approve of this thread.

theos911
2010-06-09, 09:45 AM
Ok that is what we are looking for subject42. I think I've got one.

Platinum Knight(Draconomicon 133)

It is a full BAB 5/10 caster class, that basically smites evil dragons. It also gets a small natural armor bonus. It is similar to vassal of Bahamut in both fluff and abilities. You also get a nice +2 charisma bonus for (almost lvl9)capstone. You also get charisma to saves against evil dragons that does stack with pally divine grace.

It is only a 5/10 caster class, and the abilities don't quite really make up for it. I think 7 or 8/10 would be better.

For a Paladin it is nice, it advances his BAB and has awesome abilities that work with his views, especially a pally of bahamut. They also stack with his Paladin abilities. It doesn't work real well for a cleric since the casting loss is too much. Would be quite interesting if used with ranger with dragon as favored enemy.

Optimystik
2010-06-09, 09:53 AM
I should probably post a class, shouldn't I...

My favorite overlooked class is Exalted Arcanist from BoED.

This 5-level PrC (4/5 casting) has many benefits, which I consider to be worth the lost CL even for a sorcerer.

Crunch:

- On the dead level, you still learn two extra spells known, meaning all you really lose is CL - and that is easily buffed or handled via Practiced Caster.
- You get access to the EA spell list, which includes such notables as the Planar Ally line (summoning sorcerers can now qualify for Thaumaturgist (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/thaumaturgist.htm)), the Aspect of the Deity line, and Holy Word.
- The prereqs are two solid metamagic feats - Purify Spell, which causes your spells to do extra damage to evil creatures and zero damage to good ones, and Consecrate Spell, which turns half of all your spell damage to untyped, ignoring resistance. Who needs Sculpt Spell or Energy Substitution? Layer those fireballs on top of your party, they won't mind.

You get also get two bonus exalted feats, refunding the two you used to qualify.

The capstone is excellent - every Sanctified Spell in the game is added to your spells known. That's a whopping 28 extra spells - all of which you can cast at-will. Just mind the sacrifices :smallwink:


Fluff:
This is perhaps my favorite part about the class. Screw all those draconic sorcerers - your power comes from Celestials! This dovetails very nicely with Lesser Aasimar and the Celestial Bloodline. Which sufficient cheese, buyoff or gestalt you can even tack on Saint for Real Ultimate Holiness. Your Wings of Cover have feathers!

And if you still want something draconic after all - say, Dracolexi - just make yourself the descendant of a celestial dragon, preferably metallic.

Renchard
2010-06-09, 09:54 AM
Class: Shaman (Oriental Adventures)

Upsides: Full preparation divine caster. Gets turn undead, domains, an animal companion, an equivalent to the paladin's divine grace, Improved Unarmed Strike, and a bonus martial arts feat in the first five levels. Has a spell list that has winners from both the druid and the cleric spell list.

Downsides: The big one is that it is 3.0. Updated to 3.5 in Dragon 318, but still more work to get approval. Requires DM approval to get the spell expansion support that clerics and druids enjoy (although text in SpC supports this). Not as dippable as cleric, not nearly as good as base class druid (No wildshape). Only light armor and d6 HD.

Why this class: Did you see the upsides? Getting approval for stuff can be a pain, but this is still a Tier 1/Tier 2 class out of the gate. The first 5 levels make an excellent base for almost divine caster build.

hamishspence
2010-06-09, 09:58 AM
And if you still want something draconic after all - say, Dracolexi - just make yourself the descendant of a celestial dragon, preferably metallic.

What about a planar dragon of the Upper Planes, like a Radiant Dragon (Draconomicon) or an Adamantine Dragon (Dragon magazine)?
As Extraplanar dragons with the Good subtype, they come pretty close to the "celestial dragon" concept.

theos911
2010-06-09, 10:02 AM
I should probably post a class, shouldn't I...

My favorite overlooked class is Exalted Arcanist from BoED. **EDIT Page 61**
This 5-level PrC (4/5 casting) has many benefits, which I consider to be worth the lost CL even for a sorcerer.

I hoped someone would mention this little gem. It wasn't until now that I realized just what those entry feats do and that they get refunded at 3 and 5. Those extra spells really make up for the lost caster level, they might even be better than it(BLASPHEMY!!!).


Class: Shaman (Oriental Adventures) EDIT: Page 22**


I'll have a comment in a moment; after some reading... Ok, from what I can tell it's crunch is: Cleric who talks to spirits, gets and animal companion, fights like a monk, gets save bonuses like a pally, sees ghosts, and can turn undead like a cleric. For flavor it is, a guy who gets magic from the spirits and can repel undead through his spirit power, while perfecting his resistance by mastery of kindness(charisma). The spirits grant him a friendly animal guide. Would I be correct in this statement?

(I don't normally use oriental adventures, so I had never heard of that before)

Kaiyanwang
2010-06-09, 10:07 AM
Class: Shaman (Oriental Adventures)

Upsides: Full preparation divine caster. Gets turn undead, domains, an animal companion, an equivalent to the paladin's divine grace, Improved Unarmed Strike, and a bonus martial arts feat in the first five levels. Has a spell list that has winners from both the druid and the cleric spell list.

Downsides: The big one is that it is 3.0. Updated to 3.5 in Dragon 318, but still more work to get approval. Requires DM approval to get the spell expansion support that clerics and druids enjoy (although text in SpC supports this). Not as dippable as cleric, not nearly as good as base class druid (No wildshape). Only light armor and d6 HD.

Why this class: Did you see the upsides? Getting approval for stuff can be a pain, but this is still a Tier 1/Tier 2 class out of the gate. The first 5 levels make an excellent base for almost divine caster build.

Good call. Glad to see another Shaman fan, good sir.

hamishspence
2010-06-09, 10:09 AM
How does it compare to the Spirit Shaman in Complete Divine?

theos911
2010-06-09, 10:14 AM
How does it compare to the Spirit Shaman in Complete Divine?

Well, since I don't know either class, I'm, not biased, but I also don't know them at all. I'll share my opinion after reading spirit shaman.

Not done reading yet, but seems shaman is more of a guide; spirit shaman is more of a mediator. Hmm spirit shaman casts on wisdom, but DCs are on charisma. Peculiar... They seem similar, but different. They are like cleric and druid or fighter and barbarian; maybe even wizard and sorcerer. They are however different, in both crunch and flavor. I don't understand them well enough to speak about them, so hopefully someone else has an answer.

Optimystik
2010-06-09, 10:21 AM
What about a planar dragon of the Upper Planes, like a Radiant Dragon (Draconomicon) or an Adamantine Dragon (Dragon magazine)?
As Extraplanar dragons with the Good subtype, they come pretty close to the "celestial dragon" concept.

Why yes, that works fine :smallsmile:
I tend not to sweat the details - when I said "celestial dragon" I wasn't specifically referring to dragons with the Celestial template :smalltongue:


I hoped someone would mention this little gem. It wasn't until now that I realized just what those entry feats do and that they get refunded at 3 and 5. Those extra spells really make up for the lost caster level, they might even be better than it(BLASPHEMY!!!).

The Sancitified Spells aren't half bad either.

Luminous armor, 2nd level - +5 to AC and imposes -4 to attack against any and all melee attackers, no save - which stacks with penalties taken by light-sensitive attackers (and it will impose those penalties, because it sheds light = a daylight spell.) That's an effective +9 to AC from a second-level spell, lasting hours/level. The sacrifice? 1d2 Str damage. You're a sorcerer, so you don't care about strength anyway. It's also touch range, so you can throw it on the beatstick too - you still pay the sacrifie, not him..

Celestial Aspect, 3rd-level - A menu-spell; perfect for sorcerers. Choose the function you need - my personal favorite is Deva's Wings - grant the touched creature a fly speed of 100ft, Good maneuverability. Or how about a +1 Flaming/Holy armblade like a sword archon (cannot be sundered or disarmed?) Or Cervidal's horns - add a natural gore attack to any melee ally's charge (stacks with their weapon attacks), dealing 1d8 + (1.5*Str) that automatically dismisses summoned and called creatures. The sacrifice is 1d3 Str, which again, you could care less about.

I too will read up on Shaman - I'll be honest, none of the classes in OA leaped out at me save for the ones that were updated (e.g. Wu-Jen, Shugenja), but I'll give it another look.

Renchard
2010-06-09, 10:22 AM
I'll have a comment in a moment; after some reading...[/S] Ok, from what I can tell it's crunch is: Cleric who talks to spirits, gets and animal companion, fights like a monk, gets save bonuses like a pally, sees ghosts, and can turn undead like a cleric. For flavor it is, a guy who gets magic from the spirits and can repel undead through his spirit power, while perfecting his resistance by mastery of kindness(charisma). The spirits grant him a friendly animal guide. Would I be correct in this statement?
(I don't normally use oriental adventures, so I had never heard of that before)

Got it in one, yes.

As for the spirit shaman, its crunch matches its fluff much more closely. They have a spirit guide who grants them spells and helps them control their spells, and they gain abilities to both ward off evil spirits and enter the spirit realm.

Kaiyanwang
2010-06-09, 10:24 AM
How does it compare to the Spirit Shaman in Complete Divine?

It greatly depends on how you expand his spell list. But cleric-like spellcasting + char to saves + AC + Kung Fu is awesome.

SpC guidelines follow.

Originally posted by Spell Compendium

Shaman (Oriental Adventures): Shamans have a spell list that is a blend of druid and cleric, but they should not get all the spells clerics and druids do. Examine the spell lists of both those classes for good choices. Also, consider using the cleric domains presented in this book as shaman domains

Sernett, M; Grubb, J; MacArtor, M; Spell Compendium, Other spellcasting classes, pp 3-4. Wizard of the Coast, 2005.

Curmudgeon
2010-06-09, 10:36 AM
I nominate the Berserk. It's a handy PrC in Deities and Demigods (3.0). Basically it's like the Frenzied Berserker, except you don't need rage-based feats to get into the class. Quite handy if you don't want to be limited to using just one mechanism to create that sort of character.

Fax Celestis
2010-06-09, 10:41 AM
Luminous armor, 2nd level - +5 to AC and imposes -4 to attack against any and all melee attackers, no save - which stacks with penalties taken by light-sensitive attackers (and it will impose those penalties, because it sheds light = a daylight spell.) That's an effective +9 to AC from a second-level spell, lasting hours/level. The sacrifice? 1d2 Str damage. You're a sorcerer, so you don't care about strength anyway. It's also touch range, so you can throw it on the beatstick too - you still pay the sacrifie, not him..

Use Chain Spell and hit the entire party for 1d2 Str damage.

Xallace
2010-06-09, 11:00 AM
I don't think I've ever seen anyone mention the Doomlord from Planar Handbook.. Then again, I don't ever see much mention of the Planar Handbook.

Pros:

d12 hit die, Full Base Attack Bonus, Good Fortitude Save
Entropic Blow: A Smite-esque ability, adds double your class level in damage and automatically ignores hardness, as well as DR possessed by constructs and undead.
Bonus Feats: You get three! The list is short (6, and one is Toughness, bleh), but bonus feats are always a nice perk.
Destructive Expertise: A flavorful bonus to Disable Device and Knowledge (arc and eng) checks.
Negative Adaptation: Very situationally useful, makes you immune to the effects of negative-dominant areas.
Body and Soul: You get to add 1 to either your Constitution or your Charisma - twice!
Unmaking Magic: Dispel Magic, with a CL equal to your class level, plus a bonus. You get a higher bonus when attempting to dispel a Permanency effect.
Disintegrate: Free once-per-day Disintegrate effect.


Cons:

Half-Caster; still, OK for rangers or paladins I suppose?
High entry prereqs; +7 Base Attack, although you only need two feats, which is a perk.
Low Skills: 2 + Int, not many class skills
Healing Resistance: Conjuration (Healing) effects heal only half.



Might be a pretty awesome warforged though!

Optimystik
2010-06-09, 11:02 AM
Use Chain Spell and hit the entire party for 1d2 Str damage.

I don't think that will work - for one, Chain Spell can't be applied to touch spells, and for two, only the caster pays the sacrifice.

Because the sacrifice component replaces the material component, I'd say that even if you could Chain a Sanctified Spell you would only pay the sacrifice once - after all, you don't need multiple material components to chain a spell - but were the sacrifice to be paid more than once, the caster would be stuck with the bill. Xd2 Strength damage, where X is the number of party members.

subject42
2010-06-09, 11:11 AM
I don't think that will work - for one, Chain Spell can't be applied to touch spells, and for two, only the caster pays the sacrifice.


Could you apply reach spell to it to make it a ray?

Thespianus
2010-06-09, 11:29 AM
The 3.0 PrC "Heartwarder" from Faiths and Pantheons (not sure if it has been updated for 3.5)

It has some bizarre entry requirements: Dodge, Mobility, Spell Focus (Enchantment) and EWP(Whip) but if you can get your DM to apply some sanity (The Heartwarder *gains* Spell Focus (Enchantment) as a class feature on level 6.) it's pretty neat for a Sorcerer or maybe a War Mage.

But, what makes it a sweet Sorcerer PrC is the 10/10 casting, the +5 (over 10 levels) inherent bonus to Charisma, the good Fort and Will saves and the 3/4 BAB. At level 10 you turn into a Fey. Whoohoo. ;)

theos911
2010-06-09, 11:47 AM
The 3.0 PrC "Heartwarder" from Faiths and Pantheons (not sure if it has been updated for 3.5)

Now that's unknown. The EWP Whip, might be if sune's weapon is a whip. The spell focus you get as a class feature is stupid, I'd waive it. Seems interesting, especially in a male build; Ok everyone come get your kiss(I mean buff).

Flickerdart
2010-06-09, 11:47 AM
Maybe it's a Bard PrC? Bards are naturally proficient with the Whip, could be expected to use Dodge and Mobility (by WotC, anyway) and get a lot more mileage from SF: Enchantment.

theos911
2010-06-09, 11:49 AM
Maybe it's a Bard PrC? Bards are naturally proficient with the Whip, could be expected to use Dodge and Mobility (by WotC, anyway) and get a lot more mileage from SF: Enchantment.

Ya, but make it an entry req OR a class feature. Not both! *unless they stack of course* :smallwink:

Flickerdart
2010-06-09, 11:50 AM
You could always Chaos Shuffle it into something else.

jiriku
2010-06-09, 11:54 AM
I don't think that will work - for one, Chain Spell can't be applied to touch spells, and for two, only the caster pays the sacrifice.

Because the sacrifice component replaces the material component, I'd say that even if you could Chain a Sanctified Spell you would only pay the sacrifice once - after all, you don't need multiple material components to chain a spell - but were the sacrifice to be paid more than once, the caster would be stuck with the bill. Xd2 Strength damage, where X is the number of party members.

I think that was Fax's point. For the cost of 1d2 Strength damage, you can chainreach the spell onto every party member. When the benefit increases, but the cost remains the same, the choice becomes very efficient.

theos911
2010-06-09, 11:55 AM
Well yes, but you can always chaos shuffle into something different.

Fouredged Sword
2010-06-09, 11:56 AM
Slap on warweaver, I think it's called. A one level dip allows you to cast touch buffs and effect an number of willing targets all at once. Get the full progresion and all spells you cast like that gain one range bracket, (touch to short, short to medium).

One spell to hit the entire group with luminus armor.

In the eternal words of Billy, but wait there is more.

You can indefinatly delay a number of spells in a weave. Cast Lunimus armor the day before. Have the party cleric heal that ability damage. Now as a swift or imidiate action, I can't remember, release all thouse spells into you team. The best part is that those spells came of your spells per day last night, not today!

hamishspence
2010-06-09, 11:56 AM
I'd like to see a rundown of the Mystic from Dragonlance Campaign Setting- I haven't read the book in years, and can recall nothing about the class.

It may be one of the most obscure 20 level WOTC-published classes.

theos911
2010-06-09, 12:00 PM
I'm on it.

DragoonWraith
2010-06-09, 12:04 PM
I'd like to see a rundown of the Mystic from Dragonlance Campaign Setting- I haven't read the book in years, and can recall nothing about the class.

It may be one of the most obscure 20 level WOTC-published classes.
I've heard of it; someone in the last week or two asked about it. I forget what the rundown said, though.

Xallace
2010-06-09, 12:08 PM
I seem to recall the mystic being a cleric with sorcerer spells known / per day, one domain, and only a good Will Save.

theos911
2010-06-09, 12:17 PM
Dragonlance Campaign setting page 47. More info forethcoming...

Cleric BAB Good saves fort and will and a domain. Cleric casting with spells known. Divine caster with no deity

Claudius Maximus
2010-06-09, 12:18 PM
The Noble is even more obscure, actually, in that I've never heard it mentioned ever. Same book.

Also, you take ability damage from a sanctified spell when the duration runs out, not when you cast it.

theos911
2010-06-09, 12:20 PM
Well, while I'm in Dragonlance let me nab noble...

Cleric BAB, good saves -will,ref
One cross class skill becomes class skill at level 1
Favors, which are hard to explain but basically add a scaling bonus to a d20 roll and see if it beats the DM's dc to get the favor done
scaling inspire confidence
scaling bonus to aid another checks
scaling inspire greatness

Person_Man
2010-06-09, 12:21 PM
Aglarondan Griffin Rider (Unapproachable East pg 19)

Pro: Griffin Special Mount (scales with level, stacks with Paladin ability). Evasion -> Improved Evasion for you and your Mount (a very rare thing for full BAB classes, and it synergizes very well with Divine Grace). Can use Mounted Combat multiple times per round (preventing anyone from harming your mount with standard attacks). So basically you're a highly mobile flying tank.

Con: Doesn't progress casting, Smite, or Lay on Hands. After you complete it, there's really no natural class or PrC for you to take for your last 5 levels.
Griffins are Large creatures, which means you'll face plenty of squeezing penalties in some dungeons. Lacks Pounce, which makes ubercharge combos more difficult. Isn't as good as a strait Paladin with the Leadership feat and a generous DM (one that would let you ride a dragon or some similarly awesome creature).


Anointed Knight (Book of Exalted Deeds pg 49)

Pro: A 2 level dip can give you DR 3/- and makes your Ancestral Weapon inflict Evil enemies with the Unicorn Blood ravage (Save or take 1d3 Str damage) every time you hit them.

Con: Mostly worthless against non-Evil enemies. Needs high Cha to get the abilities you want. While awesome for it's ECL, the Save DC for Unicorn blood doesn't scale. So beyond ECL 7ish, Kensai is a much better choice.

Death Delver (Heroes of Horror pg 93)

Pro: Rebuke Undead (for Divine and Domain feats), immunity to Fear, Death Ward for hours per level (immunity to death spells, magical death effects, energy drain, and any negative energy effects), Diehard, Immunity to Coup de Grace and Massive Damage, a Fear Aura, and limited spellcasting from it's own progression and list. But the real fun is the capstone Cheat Death lets you die nine times without getting killed (you’re reduced to -9 hit points instead), which is pretty darn potent for a tank.

Con: d8 hit die, 7/10 BAB, mediocre Skill list, few offensive abilities. You really don't have much to do except avoid death.


Frostreaver (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50588) (Frostburn pg 60)

Pro: Healed by cold damage when you Rage. Ridiculously useful when combined with a friendly caster using Energy Substitution. Also auto Stabalizes, is immune to Wounding, and gets Rend and the ability to make an extra unarmed attack whenever he attacks, which when combined with Snap Kick potentially makes him an AoO monster (if he can get respectable reach from some other source.

Con: Unarmed damage is pretty poor and doesn't stack with anything. Extra Rage is pretty much a feat tax.

Hellreaver (Fiendish Codex II)

Pro: Gets Mettle, immunity to Fear, and the ability to heal 10/20/30 hit points (depending on your class level) to yourself or any Good ally within 10 feet every round of combat as a Swift action, for pretty much every round of combat. You also get some situational Smite like abilities. My preferred entry is Lion Totem Barbarian 1/Paladin of Freedom 4.

Con: Lacks meaningful offensive abilities. But with full BAB, you should be fine. This is basically the best non-Crusader non-caster tank available.


Sanctified Mind (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7194308&postcount=3) (Lords of Madness pg 198)

Pro: Full BAB, 5/6 progression for divine spells or manifesting ability, some semi-useful class abilities, and Power Resistance (which counts as Spell Resistance if your DM is using transparency rules) that is based on your character level. The class only requires +4 BAB, so early entry is a possibility for certain builds. For example, Fighter 4/Sanctified Mind 1/Warmind 5/Sanctified Mind 2-6 have full BAB build and psychic abilities almost as good as a 15th level Psychic Warrior.

Con: Again, there's really nowhere to go for the last levels of your progression. So it's pointless for a game going to ECL 20.

Optimystik
2010-06-09, 12:24 PM
I think that was Fax's point. For the cost of 1d2 Strength damage, you can chainreach the spell onto every party member. When the benefit increases, but the cost remains the same, the choice becomes very efficient.

I agree, but Fax didn't mention Reach Spell. Though I do seem to have misread the statement "hit the entire party for 1d2 Strength damage" - I thought Fax meant "inflict 1d2 Strength damage on each party member" rather than "buff multiple people but pay the sacrifice only once" and was correcting that former reading.

TL;DR - yes, that will work.


I seem to recall the mystic being a cleric with sorcerer spells known / per day, one domain, and only a good Will Save.

This is correct. They seem to be superior to Favored Souls - trading Heavy Armor prof., Reflex saves, and class features for SADness and a domain. Worth it, imo.

PrCing out seems almost mandatory though - like sorcerers, they get squat after first level. :smallannoyed:

EDIT: @ Person_Man - I never liked Anointed Knight - if I'm going to dip into a generic melee class I'd rather go with Incarnum Blade.

I wouldn't really call Sanctified Mind obscure either - pretty much every official psionic PrC has been chewed and digested by the boards since CPsi gimped us so much. It's a great class, and fits nicely with Slayer in a Psywar or Gish Ardent/Wilder build.

Xallace
2010-06-09, 12:28 PM
Does anyone know about the Spell Sovereign from Dragon #357? I'm away from magazine right now, but I recall the following: Living Spell familiar, ability to spontaneously convert any eligible spell into a Living Spell. Soon as I get back to the magazine, I'll give a full rundown.

One I remember a tad better was The [Something] Demonslayer, from one of the Age of Worms articles. A nice ranger PrC, full BAB and good Fort/Ref, fine skills, etc. You got the ability to detect demons, improved favored enemy bonuses against demons, see through demonic disguises, etc. Basic stuff. The real kicker, however, was the magic tribal tattoos themed after dinosaurs. When you activated a tattoo, anyone with True Seeing active witnessed the creature's flickering outline form an aura around you. These tattoos let you do things like +2d20+(6xStr) on charges, depending on dinosaur, of course.

ShadowsGrnEyes
2010-06-09, 12:32 PM
I am fond of: Beast Heart Adept. It's not a great PrC(mechanics-wise), its just a fun PrC. . . nothing like running around with a grey render or a manticore as a companion. . .

It's in Dungeonscape along side Trapsmith which is another fun class . . .

BEAST HEART ADEPT

Adventurers face monsters every time they descend
into a new dungeon. Most view the creatures as horrid
abominations that want nothing more than to cut
them down where they stand. However, the beast heart
adept sees through a monster’s frightening visage.
By attuning himself to the bestial urges of dungeon
creatures, he learns to form powerful bonds with a
small number of monsters. These creatures become
his devoted allies, and together they form a potent
fighting combination.

CLASS FEATURES
A beast heart adept forms something like a pack, with
himself at the center and his bestial allies as the members.
Under his tutelage and care, these monsters become stronger
and tougher. Over time, the beast heart adept learns
to optimize his fi ghting ability when battling alongside
his newfound allies.
Monstrous Companion (Ex): You gain the service
of a monstrous companion. the companion has the
same alignment as you.
Monster Empathy (Ex): You can use body language,
vocalization, and demeanor to improve the attitude of a
magical beast such as a chimera or a gorgon.
Monster Handler (Ex): You can make Handle Animal
checks with regard to magical beasts and aberrations
without penalty.
Monster Lore (Ex): At 2nd level, you gain uncanny
knowledge about all types of living monsters, including their
habitats, behavior, abilities, and weaknesses
Monstrous Flank (Ex):
At 4th level, you learn to better
coordinate your attacks with
your monstrous companion.
Extra Monstrous Companion (Ex):
At 5th level, you gain a second monstrous companion
Monstrous Tactics (Ex): Starting at 7th level, you and
your monstrous companions make an excellent team.
Monstrous Team-Up (Ex): When you reach 10th level,
all the members of your adventuring party now gain the
benefi ts of your monstrous fl ank and monstrous tactics
abilities.

Ormagoden
2010-06-09, 12:33 PM
Mystic and Noble are both from the dragon lance setting. They're both pretty obscure.



For my choices I'd have to say

Base class

The Ninja

You don't see handbooks for it, you don't get requests to optimize it, and you only see it rarely in games.

Everyone knows the ninja's FLUFF (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8n3544zeLw) but its crunch is just as good!

You can become invisible (and at later levels ethereal)
You can use a swift action to gain %50 miss chance on yourself
You're protected from scrying and
You gain Poison Use at level 3

If I had to mention any prestige classes

<All the prestige classes from L5R>

Legend of the five rings has various splat books with 5-10 prestige classes each. They're obscure, out of date, and never saw much play or use in theoretical building.

Other classes I can think of include
Mind spy
Gnome giant slayer
Stone lord
Wild soul
Combat Trap smith
Shadowbane inquisitor

Not to mention Shadowdancer in the DMG!

And that's just to name a few



Also + on Anointed knight

Also Ninja'ed like 7 times

theos911
2010-06-09, 12:43 PM
Does anyone know about the Spell Sovereign from Dragon #357?.

I'm working on finding the mag, then I'll post. Found it... reading now....
Poor BAB, Good will save
7/10 casting
Ok read about living spells, now I can understand it's abilities
Can get a living spell as familiar only to certain level spell, max lvl increases with your level in class
Create living spells, last rounds equal to class level, at lvl 6 changes to minutes equal to class level
rebuke living spells(self-explanatory)
scaling aura of enhancement to living spells in your aura
trap living spell in gem, gem can create the spell effect pf the living spell # of times equal to spell's level(cant use living spells you created)
eventually can make living spell out of 2 or more diff spells at same time
Capstone: can awaken living spells(cannot use awakened for familiar)




I am fond of: Beast Heart Adept. It's not a great PrC(mechanics-wise), its just a fun PrC. . . nothing like running around with a grey render or a manticore as a companion. . .

I like it, might even use it on my upcoming gnome barbarian animal trainer build.

Greenish
2010-06-09, 12:52 PM
Beast Heart Adept (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20070209a&page=4), for the curious.

The Ninja
You don't see handbooks for it, you don't get requests to optimize it, and you only see it rarely in games.
Everyone knows the ninja's FLUFF (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8n3544zeLw) but its crunch is just as good!I agree, it sucks. :smallcool:

Optimystik
2010-06-09, 01:20 PM
I agree, it sucks. :smallcool:

What you did there, I see it.

And approve.

***
Okay, so nobody is doing a rundown on the Noble, so I will. EDIT: The OP seems to have done so, but I'll add my 2 cents. They're sort of a wonky cross between a Bard and an Aristocrat, with Martial Weapon Proficiency but no spells. Light armor and shield proficiencies. 3/4 BAB, d8 Hit die, good Will + Reflex.

They can also call in Favors, which is kind of like a mini-version of the "Contacts" mechanic from either DMG2 or PHB2 (I forget which.)

Perhaps their most interesting ability - at 1st level, they can pick any cross-class skill and make it a class skill for the rest of their career. So there is a base class besides the Factotum that can make use of Iaijutsu Focus. :smallsmile:

ShadowsGrnEyes
2010-06-09, 01:23 PM
What you did there, I see it.

And approve.

Heh, never said it was an effective class. I said the oposite in fact, I just said I thought it was fun. I think many classes that suck power level wise, are fun.

DragoonWraith
2010-06-09, 01:24 PM
He was talking about the Ninja. Which is one of the worst classes ever printed.

ShadowsGrnEyes
2010-06-09, 01:25 PM
He was talking about the Ninja. Which is one of the worst classes ever printed.

oh, . . . well. . . that's what i get for not paying more attention/ lol

Greenish
2010-06-09, 01:29 PM
Hay, while we're at it, anyone feel like giving a rundown on Urban Savant from Cityscape? I've seen it referred somewhere once, and I remember wondering why I haven't seen it anywhere else.

theos911
2010-06-09, 01:32 PM
I vaguely remember that one, considered it in a build once. Checking it out now...

Poor BAB good ref and will
9/10 casting loses last level
Ahh no Spell Failure in light armor(that's why I had looked into it)
knowledge checks to know opponet's strength then weaknesses then methods, then true nature, can know new things at higher levels
can use knowledge(relative) in place of a diplomacy when dealing with urban things
scaling bonus to knowledge checks and to bardic knowledge checks(lots of things in this class rely on knowledge checks, so bonuses to them from the class makes for good synergy
lvl5 gets you low light vision lvl8 gets retry on seeing through disguises and some illusions
capstone is Urban Savvy(True Nature) if you make the knowledge check you and all allies in 60ft receive an effect of protection from good/evil/law/chaos against the chosen target

and yes I do have every WoTC book known to man....

theos911
2010-06-09, 02:32 PM
**Bump**
So many active threads at once, we got pushed down quickly...

Rothen
2010-06-09, 02:53 PM
The Noble is kind of a wonky class, since it has character fluff-related stuff as a class skill. Which somehow implies that as long as you don't have levels in Noble, you're not allowed to be a pal with powerful person X. So meh.

I love the Mystic, though. I have the book around here somewhere, so I'll see if I can find it again.

theos911
2010-06-09, 02:57 PM
@Rothen having someone other than me to look up obscure classes would be... relieving....

Optimystik
2010-06-09, 03:08 PM
All right, I'll keep the ball rolling.

Heading to the webs - here's a psionic PrC that I enjoy immensely - the Meditant. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040827c) Basically, it is a psionic PrC that can meditate and give itself massive buffs.

It is very similar to Incarnum - just as Soulmelds stay shaped until they are unshaped, Energy Centers stay awakened until they are reset. So the long meditation time needed to awaken them only has to be incurred once, provided you don't frequently change your mind as to which centers you want activated.

Once a center is awakened, you can activate it as a standard action (no AoO), which provides the benefits in the linked table. If you want to change the centers you have activated, you simply have to reset them (another standard, no AoO) followed by 8 more hours of meditation later.

Note: each center requires 8 hours of meditation to awaken, so don't switch them too often!

The biggest problem with this PrC is how ridiculously feat-intensive it is to qualify. To get in as early as possible, you need 4 feats by level 6... ouch. This is doable without flaws, but does not leave a lot of wiggle-room otherwise.

The feats you need for it are in this article. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040827b)

Once inside though, the benefits are considerable indeed:

- 9/10 manifesting
- 3/4 BAB
- you can activate massive bonuses to your stats (+6 to all, anyone?), AC, saving throws, PP reserve, HP (along with fast healing), and even grant yourself power resistance, for 1 hour per activation. The larger bonuses, however, require more activations at once.
- 2 + Int skills, but from an impressive list - all Knowledge skills, Autohypnosis, Sense Motive, Diplomacy, Concentration and Psicraft
- Meditate for an hour and you don't need food or drink for a day. Repletion!
- At 9th-level, you can become Ethereal and stay that way all day long - meaning that this PrC can actually replace the Psion Uncarnate, and has much better manifesting power. You can do this 3/day, but there is no time limit on how long you can stay ethereal.
- The capstone lets you activate your centers as a swift action rather than a standard action. Note that this does not actually replace your ability to activate as a standard action - meaning you can choose whether to manifest with your standards and activate with your swifts, or vice-versa, or even double-activate.
- Each level of the PrC lowers the meditation time for awakening by 30 minutes. This means that by Meditant 10, you only need 3 hours per center.

Note: All bonuses are untyped except the AC (natural armor) and saving throw bonuses (morale.) VoP, eat your heart out.

theos911
2010-06-09, 03:56 PM
Sorry had to eat, scan little bro's pics into comp, and then actually read and comprehend the Meditant and the whole Physic Meditation thing. WOW, just WOW!!! That's really awesome, its powerful, like really powerful, and not even cheesy, and that's coming from a guy who doesn't even know Psionics. I think I might make a Psion now, just to enter that PrC. Com'on people keep them coming. I know you've got more!



The biggest problem with this PrC is how ridiculously feat-intensive it is to qualify. To get in as early as possible, you need 4 feats by level 6... ouch. This is doable without flaws, but does not leave a lot of wiggle-room otherwise.
.

That actually shouldn't be too hard. Assume you are a human psion. 1 Bonus for human +lvl1 feat +1 psion bonus feat at 1 + normal feat at 3 + psion feat at 5 = 5 feats. If you do flaws you can have 7, and it's not like you are using those on stupid feats either, those feats will be superman-ified by Meditant.

Kobold-Bard
2010-06-09, 04:16 PM
Death Master from Dragon Compendium.

It is an arcane caster and focusses on Necromantic abilities:
- Medium BAB
- Rebuke Undead
- Gets an undead minion (that can be improved a la Druid's Animal Companion)
- Undead have to Save or be unable to attack you
- Becomes a Lich FOR FREE at Level 20 (and since it says the template stacks with pre-existing undeadness, you can be a lich already, then get doubled up benefits on some things like DR).

and (my favourite of their abilities):

- They can turn nearby undead to dust and gain 2 temp HP/HD of the undead as a free action 1/round (sucking up undead dust to "heal" you is just so awesome to me).

It has a very awesome spell list, though I haven't compared it to the Dread Necro's.

Fluff is that they are servants of Orcus who seek to spread undead destruction in the world.

I love Necromancy classes, this one especially. It's also in the same book as my favourite class ever (Force Missile Mage), but that's well known so not for here.

hamishspence
2010-06-09, 04:17 PM
It's interesting to see what classes tend to get used in character writeups in WOTC splatbooks- and which tend to get neglected.

Most tend to appear at least once or twice.

Warlocks and Ninjas seem to be the most common, followed by Marshal, Scout, Hexblade, Swashbuckler, and the occasional Wu Jen, Spellthief, Duskblade, Dread Necromancer, Archivist.

Oddly, the Tome of Battle and Tome of Magic classes don't seem to appear in adventures, or Monster Manuals, or Environment books.

Healer, Shugenja, Samurai, seem to be among the rarest in splatbooks.

EDIT:

Also- I do think that Dragon content (the Compendium classes, the variant paladin classes, and so on) don't get mentioned much.

Optimystik
2010-06-09, 04:27 PM
There's another trick you can pull with Meditant; Elans "sleep" by meditating, allowing you to double-dip (i.e. recover your PP and awaken one of your centers) in one night.

Doing so does mean you have to sleep for 8 hours like the other mortals, instead of 4. :smallsmile: At least before you hit Meditant 8. But since your party has to do that anyway, they probably won't mind.

***
Here's another nice PrC - the Holt Warden (CChamp). This PrC is available to both clerics and druids, and basically combines some of the class features of each. It's a nice way to get your druid Turning attempts, and therefore DMM, if your DM doesn't allow you to use a Bone Talisman (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20040721a) spell for the same purpose.

Benefits:

- 10/10 casting
- 3/4 BAB
- Good fort and will
- Spontaneously cast spells from the Plant Domain.
- Rebuke Plants (the ability says "this functions like a cleric rebuking undead" this allows you to qualify for DMM and other Divine feats.
- Various Druid class features (Woodland Stride, Trackless Step, Venom Immunity, Timeless Body.) This is a nice way to get your cleric into some Druid PrCs that require these, such as Arcane Hierophant.
- Heal as an SLA, 3/day, though it takes 10 minutes to cast (boo!). But you can divide the healing up amongst your party members, a great way to top up between encounters.
- Whispers of the Forest - basically, while you're outside, you can ask the DM for a hint about something or someone (usually the BBEG.) You also get some nice social bonuses related to whoever you ask about. The forest can even volunteer information to you if it considers someone important.
- Perhaps their most interesting ability is Web of Life. You can allow your casters to each relearn 1d4 spell levels previously cast spells, and even give a small, untyped bonus to wisdom to every party member within earshot for 1d4 hours.



Also- I do think that Dragon content (the Compendium classes, the variant paladin classes, and so on) don't get mentioned much.

A few classes from DragComp are mentioned frequently. Force Missile Mage is the most obvious star, followed by Battle Dancer and Monk of the Enabled Hand. Savant gets an occasional mention as being the Factotum's proof-of-concept.

The rest are largely forgettable or overshadowed (Death Master by Dread Necro, for instance.)

Amphetryon
2010-06-09, 04:32 PM
The Crystal Master (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20020823b) PrC is fairly cool, all told.

theos911
2010-06-09, 05:08 PM
Death Master from Dragon Compendium. Sounds interesting, flavorful, and kinda gross maybe...


- They can turn nearby undead to dust and gain 2 temp HP/HD of the undead as a free action 1/round (sucking up undead dust to "heal" you is just so awesome to me).

Ya... definitely kinda gross


I love Necromancy classes, this one especially. It's also in the same book as my favorite class ever (Force Missile Mage), but that's well known so not for here.

I have never heard of Force Missile Mage, please tell us.

oh and btw

They don't have to be unknown, but rather ones not commonly seen, that people might not be aware of or that people might not like(shooting self in foot here). They don't have to be unknown, just interesting and likable(or just your favorite).


There's another trick you can pull with Meditant; Elans "sleep" by meditating, allowing you to double-dip (i.e. recover your PP and awaken one of your centers) in one night.

Doing so does mean you have to sleep for 8 hours like the other mortals, instead of 4. :smallsmile: At least before you hit Meditant 8. But since your party has to do that anyway, they probably won't mind.


Neat, but is that cheddar I smell?


The Crystal Master (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20020823b) PrC is fairly cool, all told.

It is rather neat, if not for the complicated to understand progression of points and powers and what-not. It seems very similar to Tattooed Monk and Anointed Knight.

Reynard
2010-06-09, 05:15 PM
Force Missile Mage is a PrC based entirely around Magic Missile.

It's a bit like this. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MacrossMissileMassacre)

Kobold-Bard
2010-06-09, 05:17 PM
Force Missile Mage is a 5 level PrC from Dragon Compendium and is the single coolest class ever.

It's a mage that chooses to focus all his energies on the Magic Missile Spell (so kinda like the Swiftblade is with Haste).

It gains 2 extra missiles, can change the energy type of it's missiles (sweeeet since MM always hits), can let his MMs break through Shield spells etc. and can cast Shield as a swift action (because getting hit by another's MM would be embarrassing) which eventually becomes flat out immunity to Magic Missile.

Loses a caster Level, but I love Magic Missile soooooooo much this is literally the most perfect class in the whole world.

Also it has a friggin badass picture:
http://trow.cn/forum/uploads/post-3007-1180014538.jpg

theos911
2010-06-09, 05:27 PM
Force Missile Mage is a 5 level PrC from Dragon Compendium and is the single coolest class ever.
I LIKE IT!!!

and


Also it has a friggin badass picture:
http://trow.cn/forum/uploads/post-3007-1180014538.jpg

SECONDED!:smallbiggrin:

Kaulesh
2010-06-09, 05:53 PM
The classes in the Midnight campaign setting - Channeler, Defender, Wildlander.

Channeler has 3/4 BAB, good Will saves, and weird spellcasting. You can choose to cast from one of three stats - Cha casters choose bard spells, Wis choose cleric, and Int choose sorc/wizard. You don't have spells per day, you've got some kind of magic pool. Each spell costs one point per level of the spell. If you don't have enough points, you take a point of Con damage for each that you lack. The damage is completely unhealable but all of it is completely removed by eight hours of rest.

Defender is basically a retooled monk.

Wildlander is a ranger/druid mesh, allowing you to go full ranger, full druid, or pick and choose.

flabort
2010-06-09, 07:29 PM
just, spoilered because someone may not enjoy Playground homebrew stuff from several months over a year ago in this thread.
the Evolutionist, by Draken (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=112349).

played differently from game to game. that's whats so awsome about the class, is it's variety. Draken gives us the bare bones of a class, and the tools to fill it out completely to our liking. OK, so most of the time it will focus on natural weapons, or anyone building it will, in any case. it's entierly possible not to use them in a build, but they are one of the better features.

Cons first, shall we?:
-1/2 BaB
-1/3 saves
-0+int skills
-may be overwelmed by choices when building one.
-Devolutionist feat allows you to add your own Cons. also potentially allows someone outside this class to make use of it's main feature.
-Some cheese posible, if you focus entirely on one feature, and become a one trick pony, which itself could be a con. so, some DMs may ban.
-Homebrew from this very forum, so some DMs may ban.

Pros:
-The Fr$#@%ng variety! the main class feature is "mutations", which basicly lets you pick and choose your own class features, and build upon them. if you thought feats let you customize a character...
-BaB/saves/skills may be improved through mutations, negating thier cons.
-extra lists unlocked via feats allows you to change your own flavor (undead? sure! plants? absolutely! psionist? go right ahead!)
-Devolutionist feat allows you to gain extra mutations, at the cost of added cons.
-Great cheese is availible, without multiclassing, but it becomes a one-trick pony if you do cheese it. (although a lot of these oppertunities have been fixed. for example: elemental nimbus used to be able to be taken more then once, which it still is, but it used to stack, and now doesn't. by taking it more then once, though, you can swap out elements as a standard action. Elemental lance, however, is still game)

Fluff is that you believe you are still imperfectly evolved, and are setting out to fix that. you strive for perfection, and to become what your race isn't, and are therefore an outcast. you live "Survival of the fittest" to an extreme, and every evolutionist is unique. You strive to break the bonds of your physical limitations. although, to everyone else, you become monsterous.

IMHO, the best class ever made. not much of a following, though, and suffers from being homebrewed, so some DMs may reject it on that point, but pretty much the class is perfection incarnate.

a note afterwards says druid and other nice classes may stack with it's levels for determining the strength of certain abilities (OK, pretty much all of them), and another note inside the "Gastly evolution list" says undead can skip taking a certain feat for access to even more mutations (which have to do specifically with undead).

Salbazier
2010-06-09, 07:38 PM
Wow, this thread is full of gold. Exalted Arcanist and Meditant+Psychic Meditation is just Awesome.



The classes in the Midnight campaign setting - Channeler, Defender, Wildlander.

Channeler has 3/4 BAB, good Will saves, and weird spellcasting. You can choose to cast from one of three stats - Cha casters choose bard spells, Wis choose cleric, and Int choose sorc/wizard. You don't have spells per day, you've got some kind of magic pool. Each spell costs one point per level of the spell. If you don't have enough points, you take a point of Con damage for each that you lack. The damage is completely unhealable but all of it is completely removed by eight hours of rest.

Defender is basically a retooled monk.

Wildlander is a ranger/druid mesh, allowing you to go full ranger, full druid, or pick and choose.


Ah, Midnight. I love those stuff. Defender and Wildlander tier ability system is nice and Defender is clearly a lot better than monk (extra move at 2 lvl?)

Thinking again, 3rd party product seemed very rarely mentioned anywhere. Even truly good stuff like midnight.

I have nothing substantive to add, sorry. Just want to comment on the awesomeness of this thread.

PId6
2010-06-09, 08:22 PM
Citadel Elite (Sharn, City of Towers; p. 163)

It just has amazing support for all martial-oriented characters, and is extremely flavorful besides. The requirements are pretty easy for martial characters (+7 BAB, Lawful, 3 ranks in Diplomacy and Gather Information).

Statistics-wise, it has d8 hit die (not bad), full BAB (good), good Will saves (great for melee characters), and 4+Int skill points on a decent list (Spot/Listen and social skills). All of these are pretty decent. It also gains proficiency with all simple and martial weapons, as well as armor and shields. Pretty good for dipping proficiencies.

Let's see the class features now. 1st level:

Citadel Training: +2 insight to Diplomacy, Gather Information, Search, and Sense Motive. Okay, useful.
Additional Action Points: Gain one additional action point each level. Nothing special, but decent.

Okay, the 1st level was just okay. Let's hope 2nd level is better:

Combat Sense (Defense): +class level as insight bonus to AC. Wow, that's pretty good! If you take all five levels, that's +5 insight to AC! Nice! This alone isn't worth 5 levels of the class, but if has other worthwhile things...
Bonus Feat: Gain a bonus feat. Any bonus feat. Or you can give it up to advance spellcasting this level. Wow. So not only do you get +2 AC and +3 Will saves from a two level dip here, you don't even slow down your fighter bonus feat progression? Woot!

Yeah, that level was awesome. A two level dip in this class looks sweet. Let's see if there's anything worth sticking around for at 3rd:

Diplomatic Protection: In Breland, you have absolute protection from the law. In neighboring lands, you have limited diplomatic immunity. A flavorful ability, and can be pretty fun when do crazy things and can't be arrested for it, but your DM probably won't like it if you push your luck too much.
Royal Contact: You have a contact close to the crown that can provide information or assistance once per adventure. Again, a very flavorful ability, and potentially useful depending on DM and type of game.

So the 3rd level is mostly flavor, though pretty useful flavor, but not nearly as good as 2nd level. You do gain better saves as well and another point of AC, so maybe it's worth sticking around for this level. Let's see what's on 4th...

Combat Sense (Attack): You can ignore Dex/dodge AC on opponents equal to class level. Wow. That's basically +4 or 5 on attack for all of your attacks as long as your opponent has 18 Dex or more. That's very good!
Bonus Feat: Another one?! Really? And you can trade it for spellcasting as well? Woot!

Yeah... it's definitely worth sticking around for 4th level. +4 to AC, up to +4 to attack, two bonus feats, this PrC has it all! That capstone's gotta be awesome, right?

Disciplined Mind: Gain Wis to Fort saves. Decent for swordsages and clerics, I guess. My Wis sucks though, so what else do I get?
Focused Smite: 1/day add Wis to attack and character level to damage. Meh. It's better than paladin smite, but still limited.

So the last level mostly serves to get you +1 more to Combat Senses. It randomly gains Wis synergy when it's nowhere else in the class, but oh well. 4 levels is probably best, but 5 levels isn't bad by any means.

Downside: Go find the Official D&D Updates page. Find the Sharn, City of Towers errata. Now look at how they utterly ruin the class and nerf it into the ground. Combat Sense, its best feature, is now nearly worthless. And did they really have to get rid of the Bonus Feats too? The two best things about the class are gone. WTF.

How many other Eberron books have errata? There's Eberron Campaign Setting, and then the adventure Shadows of the Last War for some random reason. That's it. And inside the Sharn errata, there's two minor things and the Citadel Elite nerf. That's it. Did someone just feel the urge to ruin something one day, flipped through a random book, found this, and struck out all that's good and holy with a red pen? WTF??!

So yeah. A perfectly good, serviceable PrC left in tatters by someone's random urge to errata. They didn't errata the Tainted Scholar. They didn't errata the Incantatrix. They didn't errata the Initiate of the Sevenfold Veils. And yet, they had to errata this!!?

I hate you WotC!!! :smallfurious:

/rant :smallsigh:

Yeah, ignore this errata please.

Il_Vec
2010-06-09, 09:17 PM
I nominate the Berserk. It's a handy PrC in Deities and Demigods (3.0). Basically it's like the Frenzied Berserker, except you don't need rage-based feats to get into the class. Quite handy if you don't want to be limited to using just one mechanism to create that sort of character.

I like that class a LOT, but it saddens me that it is BAB 3/4 and doesn't get the very useful improved power attack...

Optimystik
2010-06-09, 09:49 PM
Neat, but is that cheddar I smell?

Not really, it just means that Elan Meditants can change one of their awakened centers every night instead of holding the party up to do it in the daytime while they're in la-la land. Without that, Meditants are still powerful - they're just boring for the other players.

And even if the DM does come up with fun things for the others to do while you're contemplating your navel for 8 hours, all that means is you miss out on the RP. So you'll be forced to pick an energy center at the beginning and stick with it, more often than not - boring!


It is rather neat, if not for the complicated to understand progression of points and powers and what-not. It seems very similar to Tattooed Monk and Anointed Knight.

It is meant to be similar to Tattooed Monk - in fact, that's exactly the flavor what the designer was going for.

It's an excellent PrC for Erudites - they get one of the prerequisite feats for free, all the required skills are class skills, and some of the gems (like the one that lets you fly, or the one that gives you Touchsight) will allow you to skip those powers yourself, conserving your UP/day for more spammable powers. Just watch out for the Erudite multiclass description - make sure your DM doesn't enforce it, and plan ahead if he does.

I like to give it to Psiforged - the image of a warforged slotting in psionic crystals is much less squicky than an organic character doing it, and they stay up all night cutting the gems needed for the class to function. Warforged have the added bonus of not needing some of the gems at all, like the one that grants poison immunity, the one that stops aging and the one that removes the need for food and drink. They can thus focus on more combat-oriented gems.

theos911
2010-06-09, 10:40 PM
Wow, psionics sound ,more fun than magic. Too bad I don't really understand it well...

*I hope it doesn't die while I'm sleeping, or contemplating my navel**

Irreverent Fool
2010-06-10, 01:37 AM
I don't see it mentioned much, and managed to miss it when I was looking for a PrC that advances rebuking and gives full spell progression. The Complete Champion was near the end of the 3.5 cycle, so I suppose that can be blamed for what I perceive to be a lack of widespread knowledge.

Paragnostic Disciple Apostle Complete Champion p.94

It's pretty straightforward. 5/5 spell progression (arcane or divine), advances rebuking or turning if you already have it. Easy entry requirements aside from the need to be a part of a specific faction.

It gets Lore which is pretty much identical to Bardic Knowledge. The only other ability it gets beyond this is something called Knowledge is Power every level for each of its five levels. You get to pick a new minor ability each time you get it. Most of them focus on specific types of spells. You can take the same one more than once, but not twice in a row.

Cons: d4 hit points, 1/2 BAB. You also have to be a member of the Paragnostic Assembly.

I'm going to take a dip into this at 6th with my cleric to pick up the Knowledge is Power +2 to effective turning level and Bardic Knowledge.

theos911
2010-06-10, 05:58 AM
Seems rather useful, a bit specific as well. It would be situationaly useful, but flavorful.

Curmudgeon
2010-06-10, 07:36 AM
I like that class a LOT, but it saddens me that it is BAB 3/4 and doesn't get the very useful improved power attack...
Yeah, well, you've got to expect to give up something to avoid all of these Frenzied Berserker prerequisites:

Cleave
1+ levels of Barbarian to get rage
Destructive Rage
Intimidating Rage
Power Attack
It's not that they're all bad (certainly not Power Attack); it's just that due to all of these requirements you end up with just one type of berserker character. That gets old pretty fast.

Mr.Bookworm
2010-06-10, 08:08 AM
I would dispute the Mystic or Ninja being the most obscure base class ever printed. That honor goes to the Eidolon and Eidoloncer from Ghostwalk, which are the two ghost-PC classes.

Ghostwalk is really, really wonky, though.

Person_Man
2010-06-10, 08:59 AM
@ Person_Man - I never liked Anointed Knight - if I'm going to dip into a generic melee class I'd rather go with Incarnum Blade.

Fair enough. But I've reread the Incarnum Blade a half a dozen times and I really don't get the allure. The only real benefit it the +10 insight bonus to avoid Bull Rush, Trip, Grapple, or Overrun. That's nifty, but not really worth taking 3 levels of a class for.

Meditant was a great find though. There's got to be a way to have fun with the all day Ethereal Form that I haven't thought of yet.

Kobold-Bard
2010-06-10, 09:16 AM
I would dispute the Mystic or Ninja being the most obscure base class ever printed. That honor goes to the Eidolon and Eidoloncer from Ghostwalk, which are the two ghost-PC classes.

Ghostwalk is really, really wonky, though.

There's a glove of storing in there for half the price that gives you a true strike 1/day. And those classes are just wierd, sort of like stop overs until you can be revived and turn the levels into normal class levels again.

Samb
2010-06-10, 09:20 AM
The many PrC in CSoundrel don't get the love they deserve. Maybe sharing a book with the famous Malconvokers is to blame?

Uncanny trickster: If you use skill tricks (and you should) as a skill monkey, this almost PrC provides almost no downside.
Pros:
One of the few PrCs with "+1 class features", the other one is legacy champ
More tricks (3 more for free), more often (2/encounter).
easy for skill monkey to qualify (4 skills with 8 ranks and 4 skill tricks), in fact most will have this by 5.

Cons:
Only 3 levels long
"Only" provides 2/3 class feature progression

Why it is unknown: Skill tricks just aren't that popular. Most skill monkeys invest the 2 skill ranks into skills since "you can never have enough skills" mentality is strong.

Psibond agent: another easy to qualify PrC, can easily get the drop on oppenents with it's features.
Pros:
Psibond lets you do cool things (suggestion, forced sense link, dominate etc)as a swift or immediate action, has a tough save (Will save DC=10+class level+CHR). And once psibond is established it has unlimited range.
False senory input as a swift action, with no save. This power is..... really good, and even bypasses true seeing. And the real kicker is you only need to expend you swift actions to maintain it. So you can still attack while maintaining it!
Psibond(nudge) is very versatile thanks to its rather vague wording "when given a choice". So make them choice between surrendering or running away, and you win.
Sneak attack progression, so you have something to do against your psibond agents once they are of no use to you.
Cons:
Harder for non psionics to qualify for since it requires PP pool.
Other than nudge, this PrC doesn't really take off until level 8 when you get FSI.
Needs arget to fail at least one will save, so of limited value against high WIS NPC and casters. Upside is you can keep trying as long as you are hidden from your target.
Why it's unknown: Don't know why. This PrC can win encounters just with a good hide check (hide, psibond, FSI, nudge or dominate).

Magical Trickster: another trick based PrC but this time with spells.
Pros:
bonus metamagic feat, and a way to apply metamagic without altering its cost 1/day.
easy to qualify
Also more skill tricks more often (using spell slots to recharge). A common problem for caster at higher levels is what to do with low level slots. This solves it.

Cons:
Only 2/3 spell progression.

Why it's unknown: It's no IoSV or Ur-Priest, it's a short PrC with almost all bonuses.

Xallace
2010-06-10, 09:28 AM
I would dispute the Mystic or Ninja being the most obscure base class ever printed. That honor goes to the Eidolon and Eidoloncer from Ghostwalk, which are the two ghost-PC classes.

They are worth a rundown!

For those unfamiliar with Ghostwalk, it is a campaign setting in a city on the edge of life and death, so people come back as ghosts all the time. It has a nice LA +0 Ghost template if you want to play one yourself. Not only that, but once you become a ghost you are eligible for the aforementioned Eidolon and Eidoloncer base classes. A quick rundown:

Eidolon

d10 HD
Full Base Attack Bonus
Good Will Save
Bonus Feats: The Eidolon gains bonus feats like a fighter, but instead of gaining fighter bonus feats, you gain Ghost bonus feats. I'll explain those below.


Cons

2 + Int skills
Cannot begin game as a 1st-level eidolon.
That's it. That's the class.


Eidoloncer
I don't remember much exacts of the eidoloncer; it's either a d4 or d6 for HD, it's either low or medium for BAB.... but here's the important part: As you cannot be either ghost class from level one, they're like PrCs without prerequisites (other than being a ghost). Eidoloncer stacks with any spellcasting class of your choice to advance spells known and spells per day at a rate of +1 effective level per eidonloncer level. Further, every 4 levels, you gain a bonus ghost feat.
Every reason to be a dead sorcerer!

Ghost Feats
Ghost feats are cool. They come in "paths," depending on how you want you ghost to manifest (Path of the Haunt, Path of the Poltergeist, etc); and "each" path gives you supernatural abilities. These much stronger than normal feats.

Path of the Corrupter
This path is all about touch attacks. You can touch creatures and deal HP damage, ability damage, drain energy, and inflict statuses. As a bit of fluff, Corrupter Ghosts' hands glow with dark auras.

Path of the Dominator
Ghostly possession! In a whole chain of feats, you begin with the ability to slip into a living creature's body and go along for the ride, see through their senses, stuff like that. Then, with another feat, you can control their actions! Of course they get saves against it, but free Dominate effects are nothing to scoff at. Eventually, you become capable of possessing multiple creatures at once!

Path of the Haunt
Being a haunt is great! Unlike other ghosts, you can change your appearance at will (negating that penalty on non-Intimidate social skills if you died horribly)! This also lets you change your appearance to be horrifying and scare the daylights out of people! Additionally, Haunters can develop a ghostly moan. Basically you incite fear, and you do it A LOT.

Path of the Poltergeist
Over the course of several feats, you gain the Telekinesis spell. Pretty much at will.

Path of the Shaper
Shapers let you control the ectoplasm that makes up your ghostly form. You can coat things in ectoplasm (making them sticky of slippery), and as you progress you can start to form objects out of ectoplasm, too! These objects last for only a few hours, and require craft checks, but they're fully functional!

Path of the Traveler
Travelers gain ghostly movement abilities. They can teleport, they can manifest or de-manifest at-will... nothing much to them, but useful!

Optimystik
2010-06-10, 09:38 AM
Paragnostic Disciple Complete Champion p.94


I think you mean Paragnostic Apostle, not Disciple - which is already quite famous (especially since it was one of the few good PrCs Warlocks can qualify for without jumping through hoops.)

Unless you were talking about Paragnostic Initiate from the same book, which is a godawful class that should never see the light of day.


Fair enough. But I've reread the Incarnum Blade a half a dozen times and I really don't get the allure. The only real benefit it the +10 insight bonus to avoid Bull Rush, Trip, Grapple, or Overrun. That's nifty, but not really worth taking 3 levels of a class for.

It's peanuts to qualify for, makes your weapon (which can be anything, not just a blade) very hard to sunder, and as I said before - your blademeld still allows magic items in the chakra you bind it too, so it's not like you're really giving anything up.

Also, the Throat Chakra lets you fear every enemy in 60 feet as a standard action - at-will. It starts with Shaken, and fear penalties stack.

It should probably work for Monks too, if you make a "Fistmeld." And again, it will bring them up to +16 BAB.

If your melee class has better class features, then yeah, stick with those - but in that case, you're better off without an Anointed Knight dip too.


Meditant was a great find though. There's got to be a way to have fun with the all day Ethereal Form that I haven't thought of yet.

Uncarnate sans suck? Sign me up! :smallbiggrin:

@ Samb: Uncanny Trickster is well-known, because it is the only PrC besides Legacy Champion that can "cheat" and extend PrC class features beyond their normal cap - for example, a Hellfire Warlock's blast.

Also Samb - I forget that PrC you recommend for Wilders that adds a bunch of telepathy powers to their list but loses ML. What/Where is that one?

Ormagoden
2010-06-10, 09:51 AM
Wait are we counting online only published items because I believe this is worth a mention in a fey based campaign.

I present the Cold Iron Warrior (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fey/20040507a).

Samb
2010-06-10, 09:54 AM
Also Samb - I forget that PrC you recommend for Wilders that adds a bunch of telepathy powers to their list but loses ML. What/Where is that one?
That would be Cognition Thief found in FR campaign setting (i think). This trades in PP to make up for a wilder's biggest weakness: lack of powers. In terms of optimizing, a wilder/CogThief is better in every way compared to a telepath (even in PP since wild surge generates free PP).
Pros:
Grants 8 extra telepathy powers based on ML. This is the same way ardents gain powers but in a PrC. It specificlly states that a wilder can do this in the text, so if you have practised manifester you select telepathy powers as if you didn't lose any ML at all.
Read minds at will as its capstone.
Don't have the book in front of me but it also grants confusion and I think Insanity as PLAs.
Gets Psychic Chiurgery, a power you normally can't get with EK until you hit epic.
Great for dips to get bonus telepathy powers.
Cons:
Tough to qualify for (power: psionic/illithid blast, and feat: inquisitor)
Lose of 4 ML= must get practised manifester.
Why it's unknown: It's in the appendix!!! No one reads the appendix.

Optimystik
2010-06-10, 10:06 AM
Well it's not better in every way, since a Telepath can go all the way into Thrallherd pre-Epic :smallwink:

But compared to Telepath 20 I agree, it is better.

I'll help with the write-up in a few, as I do happen to have FRCS PGtF at hand, now that I know the class name and where to look.

EDIT: Yep, it's in PGtF, rather than FRCS. This is actually good news, because it makes the PrC easier to update to 3.5. I'll take a look momentarily.

Samb
2010-06-10, 10:41 AM
Well it's not better in every way, since a Telepath can go all the way into Thrallherd pre-Epic :smallwink:

But compared to Telepath 20 I agree, it is better.

I'll help with the write-up in a few, as I do happen to have FRCS PGtF at hand, now that I know the class name and where to look.

EDIT: Yep, it's in PGtF, rather than FRCS. This is actually good news, because it makes the PrC easier to update to 3.5. I'll take a look momentarily.

My favorite wilder build involves PsiChiurery and true mind seed with a thrall and beleivers. True mind seed (volunarily fail the save) with a thrall/beleiver that has good physical stats, get a psionic thrall and implant more powers into my head and let the thrall take the XP cost.

PS I wanted to mention that psibond agent's FSI makes me feel like Aizen from Bleach

theos911
2010-06-10, 11:25 AM
The Crystal Master (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20020823b) PrC is fairly cool, all told.
Here is the revised 3.5 version of Crystal Master (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040625d).

Amphetryon
2010-06-10, 11:31 AM
Here is the revised 3.5 version of Crystal Master (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040625d).
Nifty. Thanks for posting the update!

Kobold-Bard
2010-06-10, 11:43 AM
Nifty. Thanks for posting the update!

Seconded, Psionics didn't have enough crystals before now.

hamishspence
2010-06-10, 12:11 PM
EDIT: Yep, it's in PGtF, rather than FRCS. This is actually good news, because it makes the PrC easier to update to 3.5. I'll take a look momentarily.

The Cognition thief is already 3.5- since PGtF is a 3.5 book.

Kaulesh
2010-06-10, 12:30 PM
I love looking through third-party material, especially from Monte Cook. Arcana Evolved has all-new classes, having none of the core classes in its Variant Player's Handbook. I'll do a write-up on a few of the more interesting ones as I read through it. One odd thing is that all classes progress up to level 25. The experience requirements are slightly heightened (1100 to reach level two).

No worries of illegality or anything. The crunch is all OGL.

Akashic - New take on the Factotum.

d6 HD, 3/4 BA
8+Int Skill Points, all skills are class skills

Very freeform - Thirteen levels betwen 1 and 25 have Minor|Lesser|Greater akashic ability, which can each be used for a free feat, a free spell, sneak attack, and lots of other goodies.

Has rudimentary spellcasting - at 20, it can cast one simple spell of 7th level or lower a day. It increases to 2/day the next level.
At 22, gains the ability to cast any simple 9th level spell or lower 1/day. Increases to 2 at 23. These stack. At 23, you can cast four spells - two of which may be 9th or lower.

Its level 25 capstone is gaining any one ability of any other class, minus spellcasting, for 24 hours. You can choose a different ability each day.

There are lots of other goodies, but I don't want to spend too much time on one class.


Mage Blade

d8 HD, 3/4 BA
2+Int skill points

At first level, gains an athame - her key weapon, any bladed weapon that she is proficient with. This gains a +1 enchantment bonus, which improves by 1 at 4th level and every 4 thereafter. She can tell the distance and direction her weapon is from her at all times.

Her spells have verbal and somatic components and she suffers normal spell failure from armor. While wielding her athame, however, they no longer have somatic components. No more arcane spell failure.

At 22nd level, any attack roll that naturally lands within her athame's original threat range is an auto-confirm.

Oathsworn - (modified) VoP Monk

d10 HD, 3/4 BA
4+Int skill points

Cannot use weapons, armor, or tools unless the situation absolutely demands it. Would not attack with a knife, but will use one when skinning a deer, etc. Will use weapons against flying enemies (thrown weapons only), to overcome DR, etc.

At second level, gains Eschew Food. The Oathsworn refuses to allow her body to be bound to such requirements. At 5th level, she gains Refuse Fear and Refuse Fatigue. At 8th, Eschew Food extends to water. At 9th, she gains Refuse Wounds, allowing her to heal 2x her current level in HP each day. At 11th level, she gains Refuse Poison or Disease. This line eventually extends to not requiring sleep or air, being immune to blinding, deafening, paralysis, stunning, nausea, and daze, no longer gaining penalties for aging, being immune to ability damage and energy drain, gaining elemental and energy resistance, to a capstone of finally becoming an outsider.

At 4th, she gains Throw Objects. The Oathsworn can use any >=1lb item as a thrown weapon that she is proficient with. She will only use against foes she can't reach or that can't be harmed by her unarmed strikes. Unless the object is particularly sturdy, it breaks afterward.

At 6th, she gains Objects as Weapons. Similar to Throw Objects. She will only use this against specific enemies, such as oozes and fire elementals.


Runethane

Nothing much to say about this one, but it sounds interesting.
d6 HD, 1/2 BA
4+Int skill points

Has semi-powerful spellcasting, as well as being able to inscribe runes. These runes can do anything from adding an enhancement bonus to your abilities, producing spell-like effects, creating a poor-man's Explosive Runes, etc. You gain a number of "points" equal to your class level. Each of the four levels uses up differring numbers of points - lesser use one, advanced use two, greater use three, runes of power use four, and ultimate runes use none. The trick to ultimate runes, however, is that you gain your first at 20th level. You can only apply them a certain number of times.

Can plase "passwords" on runes. These passwords allow those that know the password to use objects containing touch runes without activating them. For example, inscribe a +1d6 fire damage rune on a rock, pick it up, and throw at the enemy. That's a terrible example, but they're (effectively) infinite.

Optimystik
2010-06-10, 01:10 PM
Seconded, Psionics didn't have enough crystals before now.

Never enuff dakka crystals.
(And if you don't like crystals in D&D, just use gems.)

As a Psiforged Erudite, I would grab the following gems:

- Moonstone: boosts AC and saves by up to +6 (insight)
- Jet: grants flight as a PLA. (Jet... get it? Oh, WotC.)
- Aquamarine: boosts Int by up to +6 (untyped)
- Diamond: gives up to 24 bonus PP (note: This is more than a Kalashtar gets racially.)
- Bull's Eye Agate: Fear immunity


***
Anyway, back to Cognition Thief - Samb covered a lot of it, but didn't expound so much on the downsides.


- It loses 4 ML. Though this translates to a big chunk of PP, it's not as big an inconvenience for Wilders, who generally get free/cheaper Augmentations. Practiced Manifester and the bonus powers should cover for the other downsides, but it will delay your progression. I wouldn't advise losing more than 2 ML though, so you get 9ths pre-epic.
- The Read Thoughts ability isnt as useful as it sounds. As a Wilder or even an Ardent, your Int probably won't be all that high, and if you try to read the mind of someone too smart you get stunned. It also does not qualify for mindsight like true Telepathy does.
- Confusion and Insanity can be double-edged swords due to being unpredictable; having them as SLAs can tempt you to use them when you shouldn't even with the use-limit.
- You miss out on Wilder class features while in it, such as more Wild Surge, EK (if using the Educated ACF) and Surging Euphoria.


Having said all that, I still think the PrC is worth it, if you enter at the right time. The best dips for Cognition Thief are 1 or 4 levels.

Educated Wilder 19/Cognition Thief 1 gets you 17 PK, full (+6) Wild Surge, and 19 ML (before PM).
Educated Wilder 16/Cognition Thief 4 gets you 18 PK, -1 Wild Surge, and 18 ML (before PM)

Two of the powers you get from CT should of course be the 9th-level Telepath powers that you can't get normally - True Mind Switch and Psychic Chirurgery. I prefer the latter build since you don't really need +6 Wild Surge anyway. -63 PP hurts, but again, your Surges should cover the lack.

EDIT:


The Cognition thief is already 3.5- since PGtF is a 3.5 book.

While that is true, the class itself references the Psionics Handbook (3.0) rather than the Expanded Psionics Handbook (3.5) for power/feat descriptions.

hamishspence
2010-06-10, 01:24 PM
Interestingly, it mentions the Wilder in the same book (the head of the Stray Thoughts adventuring company on page 173 is a 16th level Wilder, despite Wilders only being in the Expanded Psionics Handbook).

Since it was published the month before Expanded Psionics Handbook came out (PGtF: March 2004, XPH: April 2004) maybe they had some idea of what was going to be in the new book, but didn't know everything about it?

Apart from removing Stabilize Self from the skill list (since it's subsumed into Autohypnosis) I can't think of any major changes needed, offhand.

Optimystik
2010-06-10, 01:27 PM
That's what I was getting at - CT is easy to convert because it was mostly there already. 3.25-ish, like Savage Species. :smallsmile:

theos911
2010-06-10, 01:45 PM
Nifty. Thanks for posting the update!

I just happened across it, and then noticed yours was 3.0. Lol I wasn't even looking for it. I'm like Hey 2 of the.... OHHHH!

Irreverent Fool
2010-06-10, 04:33 PM
I think you mean Paragnostic Apostle, not Disciple - which is already quite famous (especially since it was one of the few good PrCs Warlocks can qualify for without jumping through hoops.)

Unless you were talking about Paragnostic Initiate from the same book, which is a godawful class that should never see the light of day.

You're right about the Apostle, it was a typo. I didn't realize it was "famous", I suppose I'm just fell flying around in different circles.

Optimystik
2010-06-10, 04:43 PM
You're right about the Apostle, it was a typo. I didn't realize it was "famous", I suppose I'm just fell flying around in different circles.

No worries - and the bold was there because that's the format we were following in the thread, not because I was trying to beat you over the head with my correction or anything. :smallsmile:

PA is a member of the "easy PrC" club along with Loremaster, Ruathar and Incarnum Blade. It frequents Warlock and Sorcerer help-threads.

Irreverent Fool
2010-06-10, 06:00 PM
Force Missile Mage is a 5 level PrC from Dragon Compendium and is the single coolest class ever.

Force Missile Mage is also a great way to annoy your DM.

@Optimystik: Not even an issue. I tend to get beat over the head with many things.:smallbiggrin: (Mostly books)

Optimystik
2010-06-10, 10:32 PM
Force Missile Mage is also a great way to annoy your DM.

May I ask why? There are many, many, many worse PrCs to give your DM fits with than one who can optimize a pretty mediocre spell to enable a pretty mediocre tactic.

I mean, even Fatespinner can do more to screw up a DM's plot, and that's not saying much at all.


Apart from removing Stabilize Self from the skill list (since it's subsumed into Autohypnosis) I can't think of any major changes needed, offhand.

Is it just me or do they tack Autohypnosis onto a bunch of PrCs that don't need it at all? I fail to see why Anarchic Initiate has Autohypnosis. You're so in tune with chaos that you can... calm yourself down and focus your energy/breathing?

The Glyphstone
2010-06-10, 10:37 PM
I've always been amused by the Fist of Zuoken, or in the SRD, the [b]Psionic Fist[/s]. It's neglected mainly because it's a Monk PrC, and no one takes enough Monk levels to qualify for a PrC (and for Talashatora builds, you're better taking pure Psywarrior since PF has its own progression), but it has the class feature of being able to punch people into the future. That's awesome.

PId6
2010-06-10, 10:43 PM
I've always been amused by the Fist of Zuoken, or in the SRD, the [b]Psionic Fist[/s]. It's neglected mainly because it's a Monk PrC, and no one takes enough Monk levels to qualify for a PrC (and for Talashatora builds, you're better taking pure Psywarrior since PF has its own progression), but it has the class feature of being able to punch people into the future. That's awesome.
You mean Zerth Cenobite from CPsi. Psionic Fist has no class features besides bonus feats (and is still much better).

Optimystik
2010-06-10, 11:11 PM
Indeed, Zerth Cenobite is the PrC that can literally punch you into next week.
(I wouldn't be surprised if that was the pitch for it during the design meeting. :smalltongue:)

But the class is unbelievably weak. You learn a maximum of one 4th-level power... and have an abysmal 27 base PP.

The class features are all very nice and flavorful... but the low use limit makes them all but pointless. The chief class feature - Temporal Distillation, which grants extra actions - can only be used 1/day. In fact, all the abilities are 1/day except Backslip (reroll any roll, but before you know the result :smallyuk:) and Precognition (+2 insight to any d20 or damage roll), both of which are 2/day instead.

And neither PF nor ZC advance flurry.

Irreverent Fool
2010-06-11, 12:00 AM
May I ask why? There are many, many, many worse PrCs to give your DM fits with than one who can optimize a pretty mediocre spell to enable a pretty mediocre tactic.

That's precisely it. It's boring. No hit-rolls, no shield spells, no cover. Every round it's just "the monster takes X damage". Sure, a DM could throw SR in there, but not every enemy is going to have SR.

I think I might have a rival FMM show up and challenge the guy...

Starscream
2010-06-11, 12:17 AM
Needs more Dragon Compendium!

I nominate the Jester, a very fun class indeed.

D6 HD, 3/4 BAB, 6 skill points, good Will and Ref saves.

Basically a 3/4 casting class (not as many spells as a cleric or wizard, but more than a ranger or paladin) with spells known like a bard. In fact, "like a bard" is basically this class's entire thing. It's a bard, but based more around debuffing your enemies with cruel jokes instead of buffing your allies with pretty music.

You also get a nice dodge bonus to your AC (up to 5 or your CHA mod, whichever is lower), a couple of free feats, and the ability to affect undead with your mind-affecting abilities. And of course a ton of Bardic Music equivalents, although they are more offensive (in more ways than one) than what a bard does. My favorite can automatically make creatures adopt a friendly attitude to you and your party for 10 minutes/level.

Downside: I'd say that the class is more powerful than a straight up bard, but has two problems that pretty much all the Dragon Compendium classes suffer from. 1) Only core spells on the class list. Bards get a lot of cool spells from supplements. Jesters do not. 2) Few suitable PrCs. Bards get a massive power boost from things like Virtuoso, Seeker of the Song, and the ever popular Sublime Chord. I think a jester would make a good Master of Masks, but that's about it.

Optimystik
2010-06-11, 12:30 AM
That's precisely it. It's boring. No hit-rolls, no shield spells, no cover. Every round it's just "the monster takes X damage". Sure, a DM could throw SR in there, but not every enemy is going to have SR.

I think I might have a rival FMM show up and challenge the guy...

Orbs are still worse though. It's a lot easier to make touch attack rolls trivial than deal with SR or antimagic, especially early on. And an FMM only has a chance of breaking a shield, it's not absolute.

And even if the missile did become unbeatable, so what? The character's still just a blaster. You can't even hit objects with the darn thing.


And of course a ton of Bardic Music equivalents, although they are more offensive (in more ways than one) that what a bard does.

Ha, that made me chuckle.

Ozymandias9
2010-06-11, 12:30 AM
I'll throw in Asture Devotee of Majere from Dragonlance: Holy Order of the Stars. Half-casting progression and full stacking for monk AC damage and speed. For that matter, the whole book is fairly obscure (probably because it's setting specific, which is sad because its easily adapted to other settings).

Kobold-Bard
2010-06-11, 01:50 AM
Leave the FMM alone :(

At least I still love him :smallwink:

theos911
2010-06-11, 08:31 AM
I agree, many of the campaign specific classes don't get the love they deserve. This one is Forgotten Realms.

Arcane Devotee

Poor BAB, Good will save 5/5 CL progression
Enlarge spell with no difference in casting time/or level times per day 1+ cha mod(min of 1)
Add this value (+1 at 2nd level, +2 at 4th level)
to the arcane devotee’s saving throws against divine spells, and spell-like and supernatural abilities of outsiders.
lvl 2 can choose an aspect of deities alignment, now casts spells of that alignment at +1 caster level
At 3rd level, an arcane devotee can choose an item creation feat or a feat from this list:
Spell Focus, Greater Spell Focus, Spell Penetration,
Greater Spell Penetration, Improved
Counterspell, Magical Artisan, or Shadow Weave
Magic (devotees of Shar only).
lvl 5 once per day, devotee can make a glowy shroud around herself (color appropriate for alignment chosen earlier(blue-law, godd-white, chaos-yellow, evil-black) this gives the devotee SR equaling 12+Caster Level It's a free action to invoke, lasts rounds= 5+cha mod

Due to the charisma based affects, this fits better for sorcerer, or bards who meet the prerequisites. Sorcerer would have trouble getting knowledge(religion) 8 early on, bard would not. Wizard doesn't have the cha to get the best of the effects.

The Glyphstone
2010-06-11, 08:35 AM
You mean Zerth Cenobite from CPsi. Psionic Fist has no class features besides bonus feats (and is still much better).

My bad. I do my best to pretend CPsi doesn't exist, so I guess I had unconsciously decided something cool couldn't be in it.

PId6
2010-06-11, 08:47 AM
My bad. I do my best to pretend CPsi doesn't exist, so I guess I had unconsciously decided something cool couldn't be in it.
But then where do you go for Linked Power? :smallfrown:

Set
2010-06-11, 09:09 AM
Random thoughts;


Paragnostic Apostle Complete Champion p.94

Just about the only Cleric PrC that explicitly advances Domain abilities (as well as spellcasting and Turn/Rebuke). Call of Worlds is cool for Summoners and See Through the Veil is yet another way to boost your effective level for rebuke / command purposes (which, if you can command undead, or have the Air, Earth, Fire, Water, Plant, Cold, Ooze/Slime/Thirst, Scalykind, Spiders, Warforged, etc. domains, allows you to have *even more* commanded critters).

It's one of the best all around Cleric PrCs out there, IMO.


Aglarondan Griffon Rider (Unapproachable East pg 19)

Perhaps taking a Small character (Halfling, Gnome) and the Dungeonbred template (creature becomes 1 size class smaller) for the Griffon would be a way to eliminate the use-disadvantages of the Large Griffon.


Spell Sovereign (Dragon 357?)

Note that the Ooze/Slime/Thirst domains allow the rebuking/commanding of Oozes (and living spells are all oozes). In Eberron, even a lowly NPC Adept can take a single Domain, so that a Spell Sovereign could, in theory, recruit a bunch of Adept followers (via Leadership) and have them command and control a small army of living spells...


OA Shaman

This class rocks, and it's awesome to see it get re-discovered! It's like someone ransacked the Cleric, Druid, Monk and Paladin's class ability lists and mashed them altogether into a yummy goulash!


Not mentioned yet, but the channeling classes from the Wheel of Time RPG are interesting, both the Wilder and the Channeler, IIRC (or was it the Initiate?). Pick up that Arms of Air ability and you are pretty much unstoppable, able to grab and restrain pretty much any reasonably-sized CR-appropriate encounter in 'wind-manacles.'

While it's third-party, the Psychic, from Green Ronin's Complete Psychic can be really fun, if you specialize in healing and use Drain Vitality as your attack. A telekinetic is also quite buff, but the Strain mechanic brutalizes anyone who doesn't make extensive use of Drain Vitality (or eat up a lot of healing resources from other means).

The Glyphstone
2010-06-11, 09:31 AM
But then where do you go for Linked Power? :smallfrown:

Linked Power wasn't printed in the XPH?:smallwink:

PId6
2010-06-11, 09:38 AM
Linked Power wasn't printed in the XPH?:smallwink:
Ah, I see. It's right here in the margins, next to Practiced Manifester and Ardent. That's definitely not written via marker, no siree!

Optimystik
2010-06-11, 10:41 AM
Leave the FMM alone :(

At least I still love him :smallwink:

So do I, but if a blaster that focuses on one spell is disrupting your plans as a DM, then just about any class that deals damage could.


My bad. I do my best to pretend CPsi doesn't exist, so I guess I had unconsciously decided something cool couldn't be in it.

Let's be fair now. The PrCs are godawful... but any book that gave us the Synad, Ardent and Practiced Manifester shouldn't be totally spurned.

I also really like the Erudite, warts and all.



***
Back to topic: Here's another strange PrC from BoED - the Celestial Mystic. Basically, by focusing on the mysteries of Celestia, your spellcaster gets several benefits.

Pros:

+ 9/10 casting
+ Open to both arcane and divine casters
+ Grants various immunities as you progress - death effects, poison, and disease.
+ You can turn your spells into long-range bolts of untyped damage with a 4d6 base, +1d6 per spell level. Generally you'll want the spells instead, but dealing 4d6 untyped with a cantrip is nothing to sneeze at.
+ Heal yourself for 3x your PrC level each day. Not fantastic, but better than nothing.
+ You get access to the spells that have a "Celestial" or "Archon" component; this means the game treats you like you were a Celestial or Archon for the purposes of casting these spells.
+ You keep your Dex to AC even when flatfooted; this makes it very hard to SA you, and impossible to SS you. Nifty.


Cons:
- You need not one, but three dead feats to qualify: Servant of the Heavens, Sacred Vow and Vow of Abstinence. In fact, the latter carries zero benefit, because you become immune to poison entirely, so a bonus to your fort save means jack.
- Let me reiterate the above - NO SECKS BOOZE! I like Rich's take on Celestia better :smalltongue:
- You don't really get anything that justifies the lost CL; this PrC is almost completely overshadowed by a very similar one (see below.)
- The capstone is pathetic. Fast Healing 2? Granted, you can at least apply it to your whole party.

Why it was overlooked:

The fact of the matter is, just about everything that this class does, the Contemplative (CDiv) does better - even the fluff! Crunchwise, Contemplative gets:
- the same poison/disease immunity (Death Ward can handle Death Effects.)
- two free domains
- doesn't lose a CL
- SR 25 instead of 20
- Heal 4x level HP instead of 3x
- Timeless Body
- A much better capstone - becomes an Outsider instead of piddly fast healing 2. The irony is that with this, you can just alter self into an archon and cast the same celestial spells the Mystic gets. And to be honest, the spells aren't that great anyway.

Best of all, a Contemplative can be any alignment, not just LG. Oh yeah, and Contemplatives can, you know, knock boots get sloshed without losing their class features.

Fluffwise, you're doing the same thing - contemplating an alignment - so you can have a Contemplative venerate Celestia (and even pick up the Celestia domain) for basically the same RP potential. Even better, you can contemplate Arborea, or Elysium, or Hell and the Abyss if you really want. Less restrictions = more possibilities.

hamishspence
2010-06-11, 11:25 AM
The Celestial Mystic has to take Vow of Abstinence, not Vow of Chastity. Both vows are in the BoED, and the Vow of Abstinence description makes it clear that a vow of abstinence only bans you from drugs, alcohol, coffee, etc.

Optimystik
2010-06-11, 12:34 PM
The Celestial Mystic has to take Vow of Abstinence, not Vow of Chastity. Both vows are in the BoED, and the Vow of Abstinence description makes it clear that a vow of abstinence only bans you from drugs, alcohol, coffee, etc.

Whoops, mixed them up. :smalltongue:
Still, no booze is almost as bad. And again, Contemplatives can get smashed just fine.

EDIT: My comment on Rich's Celestia is still valid though. I guess the BoED folks think you can't drink there?

EDIT 2: No coffee??? How would my character ever keep watch? :smallyuk:

Doc Roc
2010-06-11, 12:43 PM
Teflammar Shadowlord
Unapproachable East

Why?

Shadow pounce is one of the game's single best abilities for a melee character. It even comes with a bit of spell-casting and a few small abilities.

Optimystik
2010-06-11, 12:47 PM
Is that one unknown? I see it in every single "I want to be Nightcrawler!" thread :smalltongue:

hamishspence
2010-06-11, 01:15 PM
Whoops, mixed them up. :smalltongue:
Still, no booze is almost as bad. And again, Contemplatives can get smashed just fine.

EDIT: My comment on Rich's Celestia is still valid though. I guess the BoED folks think you can't drink there?

EDIT 2: No coffee??? How would my character ever keep watch? :smallyuk:

The Vows are optional- you don't have to abide by them to be good, and even celestials don't have to abide by them. However, characters who choose to take them, get special powers.

In the case of the Celestial Mystic, forgoing coffee, drugs, and alcohol.

I guess it might be a bit like OoTS Celestia's upper layers- alcohol and whatnot are fine on the lower layers, but as you approach the top, you're expected to outgrow that.

I wouldn't be surprised if low-level angels drink alcohol in the taverns of the lower layers though.

The Celestial mystic tries to outgrow it before they die, rather than after.

Optimystik
2010-06-11, 01:25 PM
The Vows are optional- you don't have to abide by them to be good, and even celestials don't have to abide by them. However, characters who choose to take them, get special powers.

Breaking the vow, however, makes you lose the feat - which invalidates the PrC, via the prerequisite rules in CWar and CArc.


The Celestial mystic tries to outgrow it before they die, rather than after.

I get that - I just find it amusing that Contemplatives can engage in untold debauchery and maintain their class features. :smallamused:

Though depending on alignment, untold debauchery may be a requirement.

hamishspence
2010-06-11, 01:31 PM
True- maybe there's something about the Chronias, the 7th layer, that makes abstinence a requirement for people who wish to attune themselves to it, (which is what the fluff in the class description suggests Celestial Mystics try to do).

Maybe a more interesting version of the PRC would involve a vow from the list as a requirement, but the player can choose which vow. So you could have a version of the Celestial Mystic who must be celibate, but may drink alcohol and coffee. Or some other variant.

Doc Roc
2010-06-11, 01:34 PM
Is that one unknown? I see it in every single "I want to be Nightcrawler!" thread :smalltongue:

People keep asking, and we keep having to talk about it. So... :smallsmile:

Fax Celestis
2010-06-11, 01:39 PM
Breaking the vow, however, makes you lose the feat - which invalidates the PrC, via the prerequisite rules in CWar and CArc.

Funny story: using this with a Goliath barbarian and Mountain Rage, you can emulate the Hulk pretty well by PrCing into War Hulk: you only qualify for War Hulk when you're large, and Mountain Rage makes you Large when you're raging, so when you rage, all your War Hulk features turn on, including No Time To Think and all the Str bonuses.

Lateral
2010-06-11, 01:41 PM
Okay, this one's not unknown in the slightest, but I want to say it here because of the sheer hilarity you can get with it:

COMMONER

...Not kidding. Although, realistically, the amount of cheese available to a singleclass commoner is INCREDIBLY LOW, if you get up to enough of it, you can enjoy a laugh while your Commoner 12 goes death incarnate on the DM's creatures. Sure, it goes down easy, but you can have SO MUCH FUN playing them because they suck in every way imaginable.

theos911
2010-06-11, 01:41 PM
HANDS OFF MY CELESTIAL MYSTIC!!!
Ok Don't need vow of chastity, just of abstinence, meaning booze-no sex-yes. Granted I've never had the latter EVER integrated into a campaign I've been in so......

I do like the contemplative, and it does overshadow in some terms, BUT!!! She can heal 4xclass lvl a day, thats 40 at best. Celesital mystic gets the same thing, but 3xclass level. BUT ALSO A celestial mystic gets fast healing 2. How many rounds are in a day? Well, there are 14,400 rounds in a day. Thats 28,800 hitpoints healed in a day. Assuming 3 party members, thats 86,400. You see my point. Would anyone ever need that much NO! But for healing celestial mystic owns contemplative HANDS DOWN. I agree its hard to beat the 2 bonus domains, especially if you can devotion them. Though you don't get the whole convert your magic into holy beam of ZAP! They both have their advantages. They are near equal, except for mystic's needed feats which are stupid. I like them both.

(I'm biased because I have a bard/celestial mystic)

Starscream
2010-06-11, 03:36 PM
I think that without the aid of booze, a lot of D&D sex just wouldn't be feasible.

Where do you think all these half-whatevers come from? Can you imagine anyone going to bed with a troll without being drunk beyond belief?

subject42
2010-06-11, 03:56 PM
Where do you think all these half-whatevers come from? Can you imagine anyone going to bed with a troll without being drunk beyond belief?

That's what extended confusion and insanity are for.

theos911
2010-06-11, 04:25 PM
..........

Greenish
2010-06-11, 04:38 PM
Sure, it goes down easy, but you can have SO MUCH FUN playing them because they suck in every way imaginable.Handle animal.

Irreverent Fool
2010-06-11, 05:50 PM
So do I, but if a blaster that focuses on one spell is disrupting your plans as a DM, then just about any class that deals damage could.

I didn't say it was disrupting. I said it was annoying.

The Glyphstone
2010-06-11, 05:53 PM
HANDS OFF MY CELESTIAL MYSTIC!!!
Ok Don't need vow of chastity, just of abstinence, meaning booze-no sex-yes. Granted I've never had the latter EVER integrated into a campaign I've been in so......

I do like the contemplative, and it does overshadow in some terms, BUT!!! She can heal 4xclass lvl a day, thats 40 at best. Celesital mystic gets the same thing, but 3xclass level. BUT ALSO A celestial mystic gets fast healing 2. How many rounds are in a day? Well, there are 14,400 rounds in a day. Thats 28,800 hitpoints healed in a day. Assuming 3 party members, thats 86,400. You see my point. Would anyone ever need that much NO! But for healing celestial mystic owns contemplative HANDS DOWN. I agree its hard to beat the 2 bonus domains, especially if you can devotion them. Though you don't get the whole convert your magic into holy beam of ZAP! They both have their advantages. They are near equal, except for mystic's needed feats which are stupid. I like them both.

(I'm biased because I have a bard/celestial mystic)


You're waaaaay overvaluing Fast Healing. No one cares about how much healing you can do out-of-combat, there's OVER 9000 ways to get free out-of-combat healing, and lots of them don't involve saddling yourself with Celestial Mystic. In-combat is the only time Fast Healing matters, and at the level you get it, 2 is pathetic.

sonofzeal
2010-06-11, 06:32 PM
You're waaaaay overvaluing Fast Healing. No one cares about how much healing you can do out-of-combat, there's OVER 9000 ways to get free out-of-combat healing, and lots of them don't involve saddling yourself with Celestial Mystic. In-combat is the only time Fast Healing matters, and at the level you get it, 2 is pathetic.
You're under-valuing it. There's maybe only a dozen ways to get it that are viable, and many of those won't be viable to particular character concepts. Not everyone is a Buer-binding Binder, or a Tomb-Tainted Necromancer, or a Crusader with a Bag of Tricks, or a DMM-Persist-Mass-Lesser-Vigor Cleric, and not all of those options are viable in any given campaign. Any source of free healing is immensely valuable. The vast majority of character deaths I've seen were either total flukes that couldn't be guarded against, or were a result of damage carried over from one fight to the next. You can reduce mortality a lot by guaranteeing every fight starts with full health.

Although, if you're an Exalted spellcaster, "Sentinel of Bharrai" gets you infinite free healing and on a much better chassis. Might be worth considering if that's what you're after.

theos911
2010-06-11, 07:58 PM
I'm agreeing that contemplative is probly better than celestial mystic, I'm saying fast healing 2 is something VERY useful, that contemplative doesn't get.

Lateral
2010-06-11, 08:09 PM
Handle animal.

...and handle animal is so great because...?

Especially since they barely get enough skill points to do basic math.

SurlySeraph
2010-06-12, 12:49 AM
Because of Battletitans. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7097263)

VirOath
2010-06-12, 12:54 AM
Handle Animal. With enough fudging and dodging beatdowns from your DM, it's possible to do anything with this skill. Need a door unlocked, train a monkey to pick it (even better than real skill monkeys, as they only run on peanuts). Need to block a door, send a mass of trained chickens charging down the hall. Got to swoon the local countess? A nice, long, drawn out scene of you washing down a horse without a shirt should do the trick. With a bit of thought, this skill can do anything!



Okay, the amount of silliness there almost made my head explode.

Runestar
2010-06-12, 05:29 AM
I think that without the aid of booze, a lot of D&D sex just wouldn't be feasible.

Where do you think all these half-whatevers come from? Can you imagine anyone going to bed with a troll without being drunk beyond belief?

Sez you...:smallamused:

http://andersson.elfwood.com/Day-of-the-Lure.2524319.html
http://andersson.elfwood.com/Day-of-the-Bond.3532625.html
http://andersson.elfwood.com/Happy-Reunion-Part-2.2524353.html

Samb
2010-06-12, 09:48 AM
***
Anyway, back to Cognition Thief - Samb covered a lot of it, but didn't expound so much on the downsides.

- It loses 4 ML. Though this translates to a big chunk of PP, it's not as big an inconvenience for Wilders, who generally get free/cheaper Augmentations. Practiced Manifester and the bonus powers should cover for the other downsides, but it will delay your progression. I wouldn't advise losing more than 2 ML though, so you get 9ths pre-epic.

it does delay your power progression for general powers but not telepath one if you take practised manifester. The text states that you select telepath powers based on your ML. Since you use PM to pad your ML you get the highest level telepath powers. You might not be able to get alter reality though which does suck. But chiurery is almost just as good.

Quirp
2010-06-12, 12:25 PM
one class I never played, but always wanted to see in action:
the HOARDSTEALER (Draconomicon)

Pro: -boosts darkvision
-trapfinding
-casts arcane spells (level 1-4 from a very limited list)
-can create temporary bags of holding
-can act as his own rod of metal and mineral detection

Con: -good against traps but not much else
-veeery limited spell list
-absolutely no combat potential

there must be a reason no one uses this class :smallconfused:

Greenish
2010-06-12, 12:50 PM
there must be a reason no one uses this class :smallconfused:Crippling overspecialization (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CripplingOverspecialization). Also, kobolds will eat you if you go around stealing hoards and disabling traps.

Touchy
2010-06-12, 01:08 PM
Dracolexi from Races of the Dragon, a fun PrC based around the magical language of Draconic and power word spells.

Pros:
9/10 casting
UMD as a class skill
3 free power words spells, at one level lower, from any class list. (Can you say "Power word pain as a Canitrip?" :smallamused: )
4+int skill points a level, and a decent selection of skills(Perform is a requirement, but not a class skill? :smallconfused:)
The Draconic words, which can be used at-will and have some decent effects(Such as free meta-magic).
Ability to still cast spells with vocal components in magical silence

Cons:
Draconic words can only be used once on a person per day(That includes yourself.), and you only get 4 of them.
Odd requirements that are hard to fill by level 5 without able learner(Or being a bard), plus what does elven/dwarven/ignan have to do with draconic?
Likewise for being a bard, you don't progress bardic music in this class, so why are you in it?
Power word's aren't the best spells.

All and all, a fair trade for some skillpoints, a feat, and a caster level.
The class works especially well if your playing pathfinder as well, both because of infinite power word pain, and the skill requirements go down a peg.

DragoonWraith
2010-06-12, 01:21 PM
9/10 spellcasting is generally not a pro. Very, very few classes deserve to lose a spellcasting level. Dracolexi isn't one of them, though I do really like the class.

Ishcumbeebeeda
2010-06-12, 01:40 PM
The Assassin (Base Class) (Power Classes I, from Mongoose Publishing)

It's a flavorful and fun alternative to the Rogue, though it might take a bit (though only a small bit) of thinking to update it from 3.0. (Mostly just remembering what skills were updated to what.) Though I'm not very familiar with the Assassin Prestige class I think this base class has more Assassin flavor. (Also, I think it'd be fun to be an Assassin/Assassin. :smalltongue:)

Pros-
It's a base class, so no entry requirement. (Not a huge pro, since the regular Assassin's easy enough to qualify for, but still.)

Alignment is any non-good, not just evil.

Sneak attack (same as Rogue, as far as I can tell)

Assassination; Okay, this gets a little wordy, though not all that complex. The assassination is basically a sneak attack that has more d6s, but you need to study the target for 3 rounds. You can do other actions, so long as your attention stays focused on the target. If your assassination attempt is enough to force a fortitude save vs. massive damage (50 points of damage, I think?) then the DC is higher. (15+INT+1/5 points over 50)

Poison use; Never risk poisoning yourself. Later gain a favored poison. You get a bonus to Fort saves vs. that poison, a bonus to craft(poison) checks to make that poison, and a smaller bonus to the spot DC checks to notice the poison. (You wind up with 6 favored poisons if you go the full 20 levels)

Exotic Weapon Proficiency; at 6th, 12th, and 18th levels you gain an EWP of your choice.

Cons-
At least one class feature that is very in-game time intensive for a small bonus output. Though this feature (Meticulous Planning) let's you "case the joint" (their words) and is very flavorful.

The person you want to use your Assassination attempt on can't know you're an enemy. Again, very flavorful, if somewhat inconvenient.

Somewhat difficult to find the book. Pamphlet, magazine, whatever-it-is.

Greenish
2010-06-12, 02:00 PM
The Assassin (Base Class)So it's basically same as PrC Assassin, but open to non-evil, does damage with Death Attack and lacks spellcasting. Wohoo!

Does it also lack HiPS?

Ishcumbeebeeda
2010-06-12, 02:14 PM
So it's basically same as PrC Assassin, but open to non-evil, does damage with Death Attack and lacks spellcasting. Wohoo!

Does it also lack HiPS?

It does lack that as well, yes. It's really not that great for people who build for anything other than flavor. But it is an alternative skill monkey class. And like I said before, there's just something about qualifying for Assassin with Assassin that makes me giggle.

Greenish
2010-06-12, 02:17 PM
It's really not that great for people who build for anything other than flavor.How does Assassin have better assassin flavour than Assassin? :smallconfused:

The Glyphstone
2010-06-12, 02:23 PM
How does Assassin have better assassin flavour than Assassin? :smallconfused:

Yo dawg, I heard you like assassins, so we put an Assassin in your Assassin so you can Death Attack while you Death Attack.:smallbiggrin:

Greenish
2010-06-12, 02:26 PM
Yo dawg, I heard you like assassins, so we put an Assassin in your Assassin so you can Death Attack while you Death Attack.:smallbiggrin:There's a point. I wonder if you can actually Death Attack (or whatever the base-class Assassin has that increases the SA damage) while you Death Attack (with PrC Assassin).

DragoonWraith
2010-06-12, 02:28 PM
Technically, by RAW, the 3.5 Assassin (prestige class) supersedes and replaces the 3.0 Assassin (base class). As does the 3.5 version of Death Attack versus the 3.0 version.

Greenish
2010-06-12, 02:30 PM
Technically, by RAW, the 3.5 Assassin (prestige class) supersedes and replaces the 3.0 Assassin (base class). As does the 3.5 version of Death Attack versus the 3.0 version.Obviously, and allowing the 3.0 Assassin doesn't make much sense given how PrC Assassin is the very same thing.

Still, what if…

Ishcumbeebeeda
2010-06-12, 02:31 PM
How does Assassin have better assassin flavour than Assassin? :smallconfused:

Well, I've never played a prestige Assassin before, but from what I've been led to believe your abilities don't really depend on being an assassin. The Assassin base class is pretty much a Rogue with some extra abilities based on wanting to actually assassinate people. Basically I think it has more "Assassin" flavor because it actually captures the "I'm really good at killing people in their sleep or poisoning their food, but not as great at killing them if they know I'm there and that I'm going to try to kill them" aspect of an assassin.


Technically, by RAW, the 3.5 Assassin (prestige class) supersedes and replaces the 3.0 Assassin (base class). As does the 3.5 version of Death Attack versus the 3.0 version.

Oh. I figured since it was a splat book from Mongoose that you'd just update it to 3.5 rules and have two classes with the same name and similar abilities. ("Power Classes" also has an Artificer, Noble and a Knight, though I haven't actually compared them to their later 3.5 counterparts.)

Greenish
2010-06-12, 02:38 PM
Well, I've never played a prestige Assassin before, but from what I've been led to believe your abilities don't really depend on being an assassin. The Assassin base class is pretty much a Rogue with some extra abilities based on wanting to actually assassinate people. Basically I think it has more "Assassin" flavor because it actually captures the "I'm really good at killing people in their sleep or poisoning their food, but not as great at killing them if they know I'm there and that I'm going to try to kill them" aspect of an assassin.PrC Assassin has Poison Use and Death Attack, which is a Save-or-Die that requires the same three rounds of observation. It also has Hide in Plain Sight and a handful of spells that focus on killing things stealthily (includes some very good options with Spell Compendium).

I have no idea why you think PrC Assassin is not about being an assassin. :smallconfused:

DragoonWraith
2010-06-12, 02:42 PM
Oh. I figured since it was a splat book from Mongoose that you'd just update it to 3.5 rules and have two classes with the same name and similar abilities. ("Power Classes" also has an Artificer, Noble and a Knight, though I haven't actually compared them to their later 3.5 counterparts.)
Oh, I missed that it was a 3rd party book; I'm not very familiar with 3.0 so I didn't realize Power Classes wasn't WotC. In that case, yeah, pretty much up to the DM.

Ishcumbeebeeda
2010-06-12, 02:59 PM
PrC Assassin has Poison Use and Death Attack, which is a Save-or-Die that requires the same three rounds of observation. It also has Hide in Plain Sight and a handful of spells that focus on killing things stealthily (includes some very good options with Spell Compendium).

I have no idea why you think PrC Assassin is not about being an assassin. :smallconfused:

Okay. I admit that the prestige Assassin is mechanically better but here's my opinion (which by definition can be neither correct nor incorrect) I decided to actually look at the Assassin in the DMG, since we're talking about this so much, and this is the last I'll be commenting on the subject because the OP pretty much said to not do exactly what we're doing. [Sorry about that OP, I didn't mean to derail] After having looked at them both first hand, I certainly agree that the DMG Assassin is mechanically better, and has decent assassin flavor; I'd been mislead about how some of the Assassin's class features work. But I also think that the "Power Classes" version still has more of said flavor. One having more than the other does not equal the other having none. It's like saying that a baseball is more spherical than an egg; that doesn't mean that an egg is a cube, just that isn't as spherical. Also, I personally never liked that the DMG Assassin gets spells, at least from a flavor point of view. I can definitely see some spells being useful for an assassin, but I think it should rely on UMD to use wands and scrolls, not have inherent casting. Again, just my opinion. In my mind an assassin is a special ops kind of character, and at least to me spellcasting doesn't fit that mold. To my way of thinking you've either got time to train your body and mind to a fine killing machine, or you have time to learn magic. Though the Assassin is a spontaneous caster, so an argument could be made that their magic doesn't take any training at all. But still... I just don't think it fees right.) I am more than willing to admit, however, that there are many opinions on what exactly an "assassin" is in terms of archetypes. But yeah. That's my two cents.


Oh, I missed that it was a 3rd party book; I'm not very familiar with 3.0 so I didn't realize Power Classes wasn't WotC. In that case, yeah, pretty much up to the DM.

Ah. That's cool, I should've been more clear on that. Sorry for the confusion.


Yo dawg, I heard you like assassins, so we put an Assassin in your Assassin so you can Death Attack while you Death Attack.:smallbiggrin:

Lol, yeah. That's more or less why it makes me giggle.

theos911
2010-06-12, 06:21 PM
@Ishcumbeebeeda I see no problems, Friendly disputes and opinions are alright.


If you don't have an entry, feel free to make constructive comments about builds or ideas that employ a mentioned class.

So far, everything seems constructive to me.:smallsmile:

**I find it peculiar how I am the first post on pages 1,2,4,5,and 6**
***Cool, This post made a dwarf:smallbiggrin:**

Ishcumbeebeeda
2010-06-12, 06:35 PM
@Ishcumbeebeeda I see no problems, Friendly disputes and opinions are alright.



So far, everything seems constructive to me.:smallsmile:

**I find it peculiar how I am the first post on pages 1,2,4,5,and 6**
***Cool, This post made a dwarf:smallbiggrin:**

Congratulations on your Dwarfdom and I'm glad I didn't violate the OP. I was afraid I was getting a little bickery. Great thread, by the way, I've already decided to use of the prestige classes I found here in a game I'm in on the forums here.

DragoonWraith
2010-06-12, 08:25 PM
Ah, here's a favorite one of mine:

Silver Flame Pyromancer
An arcanist who turns his fires against the evils and abberations of the world, in keeping with the teachings of the Silver Flame. Five levels long.

Prerequisites - Requires Turn Undead but advances Arcane spellcasting. Intended for arcanists with Cleric dips, but Sacred Exorcist covers the problem better without that issue. Lawful Good is a little annoying, but whatever.

Skills, HD, BAB, Saves - 2+Int skills, 1/2 BAB, and good Will saves are expected. The d6 HD is a nice surprise, though.

Spellcasting - Misses at 1st. Overall, probably not worth it, but whatever. Can replace Caster Level with ECL for [Fire] spells, which is nice since you don't lose the CL on those.

More importantly: Add all Paladin spells to your Spell List. You can't add it to the spell lists of classes that automatically know all of their spells (awww!), but this is still pretty sweet for a Wizard. Also, the wording on this should qualify for Battle Blessing (woot!).

Purge Undead - Turn Undead level = Turn-Undead-granting class levels + Arcane Caster Level. If you qualified as a Sacred Exorcist 1, you now have a Turn Undead level of your ECL, since Sacred Exorcist levels effectively count twice, but you lost a CL to Silver Flame Pyromancer. More levels of Sacred Exorcist continue the doubling up; Paragnostic Apostle also has this doubling feature. Silly stupid things happen with this if your DM allows Turn Undead = Rebuke Undead, and you enter as a Dread Necromancer with alignment shenanigans.

Oh, and you can also deal CL*1d6 damage to all Undead in 30 ft. using a Turn Undead use. Probably not worth it, but better than normal Turning.

Sacred Flame - At 2nd, [Fire] spells deal 50% unresistable Sacred damage. At 5th, you can have [Fire] spells deal 100% Sacred damage, though some of your class features require that you actually deal fire damage.

Smiting Spell - Basically, free Empower on spells that deal fire damage to Evil creatures a few times per day, plus a few other bonuses (degrades saves, causes blindness, etc. at later levels). Nice-ish.

Persistent Flame - Bonus fire damage on the following round to those you deal fire damage to. It's not a lot of damage, though.


Conclusion
Basically, Purge Undead and the free Paladin spells are awesome, the rest is flavorful and nice. I like the class.

PId6
2010-06-12, 08:35 PM
More importantly: Add all Paladin spells to your Spell List. You can't add it to the spell lists of classes that automatically know all of their spells (awww!), but this is still pretty sweet for a Wizard..
I love how they right out say you can't add the spells to the warmage list. Who says WotC doesn't learn from their own mistakes? :smallbiggrin:

Ishcumbeebeeda
2010-06-12, 09:05 PM
Ah, here's a favorite one of mine:

Silver Flame Pyromancer
*snipidy snip*

That sounds pretty cool. Can I get a book and page number please?

DragoonWraith
2010-06-12, 09:12 PM
Five Nations, pg. 150.

Ishcumbeebeeda
2010-06-12, 09:19 PM
Thanks:smallsmile:

Salbazier
2010-06-12, 10:53 PM
9/10 spellcasting is generally not a pro. Very, very few classes deserve to lose a spellcasting level. Dracolexi isn't one of them, though I do really like the class.

A bit off topic maybe, but I'm curious. What is the worth of a CL? I mean what kind of fetures warrant losing one.


Oh, what book is Sacred Exorcist? Does anybody knows other divine-powered PrC for arcane casters?

PId6
2010-06-12, 10:58 PM
A bit off topic maybe, but I'm curious. What is the worth of a CL? I mean what kind of fetures warrant losing one.

Oh, what book is Sacred Exorcist? Does anybody knows other divine-powered PrC for arcane casters?
Recaster (RoE) is worth the CL loss, because it gives you two spells off of any list (lots and lots of possibilities there) and has some other good class features besides. Malconvoker (CS) is definitely worth the CL loss, since it provides +5 worth of metamagic for free on your Summon Monster spells (Extend + Twin). A few others would too; Incantatrix (PGtF) would definitely be worth it if it lost one (free metamagic, metamagic reduction, 4 bonus metamagic feats, and more), except it loses zero.

Complete Divine. Divine Oracle also has that flavor (same book).

Salbazier
2010-06-12, 11:01 PM
Ah, no wonder I haven't see it before. Thanks:smallsmile:

ScionoftheVoid
2010-06-13, 09:16 AM
Mongoose Publishing's "Encyclopaedia Arcane: Necromancy- Beyond the Grave" has some very cool prestige classes. 3.0 but easy to carry over (skills only and then only for one prestige class of three, only two of which grab me enough for a thorough review).

The Deathseeker

Full casting, this class is worth taking if you have a few spare levels. Requires ranks in a skill introduced in the book, but the only other thing you need is to be Neutral or Evil with 3rd level spells or more.

Its features are all gained after two levels and just continue scaling throughout the class. Deathseeker casting powers up spells and unleashed negativity gives additional spell slots. Both features are fueled by drawing in negative energy from a nearby death, though only the former is at-will. Some interesting fluff, and having your spells powered by the deaths caused by your spells is just cool. There is a limit on how long you can store the negative energy though so you can't just slay goblins for a few days and march up to the BBEG (or BBGG in this case). Turning their waves of mooks against them is fair game.

The Necrophage

This would be my favourite Prestige Class of all time, were it not for the high skill requirements (hell for a Sorcerer) and the loss of four caster levels. FOUR. That same penalty is all that keeps me from playing a Master Transmogrifist, another awesome but seldom mentioned class (but I don't have it on hand and it is difficult to justify taking unless you really cheese out your Polymorph forms, so I'll not cover it now). On the other hand this class only requires the ability to cast arcane spells at all, so feel free to dip a class with more skill points to deal with more skills introduced only in the book.

This class is not one for an offensive character. It is best used as a buffer and debuffer (Necromancy is fortunately a school with some nice no-save, just suck options, which go hand in hand with the default fluff and the lack of spell levels available). Cover the lost levels with Practiced Spellcaster to keep up durations and you should be a capable buffer and, as I hinted above, avoid debuffs with saves unless they still have effects even on a success.

Now onto the important bit: class features. The Necrophage is kind of like a crafter or divinations specialist in that they will want some time between adventures. This is because first and formost a Necrophage specialises in grafts. They cut things off of dead creatures and put them on any subject that could Teleport with you (because unconscious is a form of "willing"). They also put grafts on their undead minions, making them the only class in the book with good motivation to keep a steady supply. At first these grafts are few, limited to weaker creatures, can only grant abilities with an obviously associated organ (noses for scent, gills for water breathing, hands for Dexterity. That kind of thing) and rot unless performed on the Necrophage themselves, but can eventually take abilities even from poweful creatures and even take abilities that can only be loosely justified (troll heart to gain regeneration for example). Oddly the class never mentions the possibility of a living donor, so apparently Necrophages are expected to take "killing people and taking their stuff" to a whole new level.

The Spectral Loremaster

This class doesn't spark my interest even as much as the Deathseeker, let alone the Necrophage. It is based around divinations involving the dead, and takes that position seriously. With full spellcasting, low requirements (though there is that skill requirement again. What is it with this book and cramming in its own skills as requirements? Seriously, the class doesn't even reuire Scrying ranks, which I would think are more appropriate) and a new feature every level this is basically Loremaster but with skulls, EEEVIL and the associated power increase (all skills are class skills at level seven up and he gets true seeing as an at-will SLA, but better, at the capstone).


So that's that done. Sorry if the feature descriptions are vague, but I didn't want to make it specific enough to be illegal (fairly sure it's not OGL material). If it is still too specific I may well just delete the post, rather than making it more vague, though from what has been posted already I'm fairly sure I'm clear. I'd recommend the book these are in by the way, less than a hundred pages but plenty of interesting fluff, spells and feats despite that.

Greenish
2010-06-13, 09:35 AM
Okay. I admit that the prestige Assassin is mechanically better, but here's my opinion (which by definition can be neither correct nor incorrect) I decided to actually look at the Assassin in the DMG, since we're talking about this so much, and this is the last I'll be commenting on the subject because the OP pretty much said to not do exactly what we're doing. [Sorry about that OP, I didn't mean to derail] After having looked at them both first hand, I certainly agree that the DMG Assassin is mechanically better, and has decent assassin flavor; I'd been mislead about how some of the Assassin's class features work. But I also think that the "Power Classes" version still has more of said flavor.I haven't been arguing about mechanical power, I've been trying to understand why one of the two classes that have identical fluff and nearly identical mechanics somehow has better flavour. You keep repeating it, but you haven't given any reasons for your opinion in your prior posts, which is very frustrating.

One having more than the other does not equal the other having none. It's like saying that a baseball is more spherical than an egg; that doesn't mean that an egg is a cube, just that isn't as spherical.I don't see what this has to do with anything.

Also, I personally never liked that the DMG Assassin gets spells, at least from a flavor point of view.Okay, I can see where you're coming, and I'm overjoyed that you finally spelled it out.

I definitely see assassins in a world with magic dappling with it, but as you said, just using magical tools might be more in line with the stereotype. I just happen to like the PrC as is. :smallbiggrin:

ScionoftheVoid
2010-06-13, 09:58 AM
Also, I personally never liked that the DMG Assassin gets spells, at least from a flavor point of view. I can definitely see some spells being useful for an assassin, but I think it should rely on UMD to use wands and scrolls, not have inherent casting. Again, just my opinion.In my mind an assassin is a special ops kind of character, and at least to me spellcasting doesn't fit that mold.

That they have natural access to spellcasting means that they don't need UMD quite so much. An Assassin can still only use items for magic if they wish, most of their good spells are better in wand form anyway. If you think that's hindering yourself too much you can always carry a few gadgets that you fluff as being the source of your magical effects. That an option is available doesn't mean it has to be used, particularly when it enables things that are more appropriate to your preffered flavour in addition. Basically if you want an Assassin that accesses magic only through items (scrolls, wands, whatever) then the Assassin Prestige Class is still probably a better base, even if you ignore actually casting your spells normally.

Also, why wouldn't a special ops character have access to the most powerful and useful tools available. A modern special ops person is likely to have a gun and some above-average tech, so a D&D special ops character is likely to have magic, the approximate equivalent.

Ernir
2010-06-13, 11:10 AM
Not sure what counts as unknown. Those who love their gishes, for example, will already have scoured every book out there for full BAB classes that progress CLs, and so on.

Anyway, there are some who don't get talked about as often as they should, I think.

The Knight of the Raven (Expedition to Castle Ravenloft)

Requires BAB +4, good alignment, the ability to cast 1st level divine spells, and Ravenloft fluff elements.
The chassis has a d8 HD, good Fort and Will saves, and full BAB. 9/10 divine CL progression.
It gives a raven companion, with a number of special abilities, including a "your opponent's 5' steps provoke AoOs" ability and one to channel your spells through the raven. Smite abilities, which only function against Undead. Turn Undead at 3rd level (not just progression, it actually gives it). A Domain (Sun, but hey, it's a domain). Two feats that make negative levels a trivial problem.
Heavily anti-undead focused, but really, these are some awesome abilities.

The Knight Phantom (Five Nations, and online (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050706a&page=4))

Requires Still Spell, 4 ranks in Ride, proficiency with all martial weapons, the ability to cast Phantom Steed, and Eberron fluff elements.
The chassis has a d8 HD, good Fort save, and full BAB. 9/10 arcane CL progression.
It gives the ability to ignore the ASF on light armor. Phantom Steed as a SLA. Blur and water walk/ignore difficult terrain abilities. Free Brilliant Blade for 10 rounds/day as the capstone. Notably, activating or deactivating any of these is a free action, making them supremely usable.
Nothing spectacular. But people still talk about Eldritch Knight, which I find almost entirely inferior, so here. :smalltongue:

Triadic Knight (Champions of Valor)

Requires BAB +5, lawful good alignment, 2 relatively crappy feats (Endurance might be obtainable through race, though), an Aura of Good class feature, a few ranks in knowledge skills, and FR fluff elements.
The chassis has a d10 HD, good Fort save, and full BAB. 5/7 divine CL progression, losing at first and last level. The last level is very skippable.
It gives full special mount progression, and if you don't have a special mount, you gain one! Some Smiting (including a meh super-smite as the capstone) and a rather crappy Shout SLA. The biggie here, though, are the immunities. The list includes the conditions of being sickened, nauseated, dazzled (oh, yay), blinded, and all forms of fear.
It's cool. And I think it's much better than taking Paladin levels after 5th, even if the feat prereqs suck.

DragoonWraith
2010-06-13, 11:17 AM
The Knight Phantom comes up in most gish discussions, but usually the Abjurant Champion is favored for obvious reasons. Still, cool class, and I hadn't heard of the other two.

Pluto
2010-06-13, 12:21 PM
The Knight of the Raven (Expedition to Castle Ravenloft)
...
A Domain (Sun, but hey, it's a domain).
Domain Substitution from CChamp means it doesn't have to be.

I'm always surprised to see Fist of Raziel promoted so hard for melee clerics and KotR mostly ignored, what with FoR's prerequisites and the Exalted alignment and all KotR's goodies.

Athaniar
2010-06-13, 12:44 PM
Somebody said assassin? I'll give you the real assassin:

Nizari Assassin
(Secret Societies [2006, by Flaming Cobra, an "imprint of Mongoose"], p.30)

This is a ten level prestige class (full BAB, good Ref & Will) intended to reflect the historical assassin (while still being a fantasy class). It requires a Lawful alignment (rather than standard D&D's Evil), a +3 BAB, 5 ranks each in Disguise, Gather Information, and Knowledge (Religion), Iron Will, and Weapon Focus (dagger). It has abilities that allows it to blend in, study targets, mask its alignment as LG, and use several spell-likes (Eagle's Splendour, Heroism, Glibness, and Greater Heroism). Oh, and let's not forget the Assassin's Blade line of abilities that attunes a specific dagger to him/her, increasing its enhancement and giving it abilities, and, at level 10, imprison souls in it. It's a nice class.

The other (also interesting) classes from this book are Aum Initiate (focused on items and spell-likes), Enlightened Mason (also very Sp), Templar Elite (semi-holy-ish knight), Mossad Agent (rogue with explosives), and Thule Sorcerer (runes!). Ask me for details.

Ishcumbeebeeda
2010-06-13, 01:19 PM
I haven't been arguing about mechanical power, I've been trying to understand why one of the two classes that have identical fluff and nearly identical mechanics somehow has better flavour. You keep repeating it, but you haven't given any reasons for your opinion in your prior posts, which is very frustrating.

Since the OP has said this falls under friendly discussion and not me being a bickery little blankety blank. From my first reply:

Well, I've never played a prestige Assassin before, but from what I've been led to believe your abilities don't really depend on being an assassin.

Like I said, I'd been mislead about that, but the power classes one does have more class features that depend entirely on the fact that you basically get hired to break into houses and kill people in their sleep. Granted, the ability itself sucks, as it takes six hours to "case the join" and you only get, like, a +3 to something... I'm AFB so I don't remember, but it's a scaling bonus, and +3 is as high as it gets. So yeah, the ability itself sucks, but it does add some flavor.


I don't see what this has to do with anything.

Then apparently I inferred something you didn't mean to imply. I had gotten the impression that you thought that I was trying to say that the DMG Assassin didn't have any assassin flavor. Apparently I misunderstood.


Okay, I can see where you're coming, and I'm overjoyed that you finally spelled it out.

Huh.... I coulda sworn... I thought I'd already said that in my first reply, but apparently I'd just thought of saying it. Mia culpa. Sorry about that. I definitely understand being frustrated with people repeatedly stating something without giving a reason, it happens to me a lot, but I did give at least one reason (though it turned out to be flawed) right away, and I'd thought I'd given another later... I also have an issue, even when rereading, with... how do I explain it... it's kind of like when you edit your own work and miss minor mistakes because you're reading it knowing what it's supposed to say. If that makes any sense to anyone else... Basically, even rereading it now, it looks to me like I did give reasons and explanations, but I might be over-estimating how easy it is to infer information from my posts, since I already know what I mean... I'm not gonna try to explain that any further, because I'm getting a headache trying to decide if I'm doing what I'm trying to explain I do with my explanation. Yeah...


I definitely see assassins in a world with magic dappling with it, but as you said, just using magical tools might be more in line with the stereotype. I just happen to like the PrC as is. :smallbiggrin:
Well at least we've got some common ground:smallbiggrin: Actually after reading them both and comparing them side by side (literally) I do still think that the base class has more flavor, for my stated reasons and just because I do... intuitively or something, idk, it's a gut feeling, but anyway, even though I do still think that, since reading the DMG one for myself (I should never trust that other people have idea what they're talking about anymore...:smallsigh:) if I had to quantify the difference it'd be like a .1. Negligible. So to most people that would mean that they have equal flavor, but for some reason in my mind "negligible" doesn't exist; a difference, no matter how slight, is still a difference. But I'm a nit-picky little b'tard. :smallbiggrin:

EDIT:


Somebody said assassin? I'll give you the real assassin:

Nizari Assassin
(Secret Societies [2006, by Flaming Cobra, an "imprint of Mongoose"], p.30)
*snippy cut cut*

Hmm... I'll have to find this so I can compare them side by side by side! Though I think I might like this better already, since I made the mistake of forming an opinion on the DMG Assassin before reading it myself (and other classes; Warlock, Wizard, when I was first starting out, Cleric too, and a few others) I'll have to reserve my final opinion until such a time as I can see it in the original print. :smallsmile:

Also, this has nothing to do with anything, but it made me lol, so I'm gonna post it:smalltongue:. I just saw the code for small smile and read "Smallville." The funniest part was I got really excited, for some reason, for a second. I think I might need some sort of support group, lol.

theos911
2010-06-13, 01:30 PM
@Lord Xavius
I'd love to here about that rogue with explosives, and since everyone is "talking" about the Assassin; Not having read the base class Assassin, I can only guess that a class you take from level 1 and progress, would better fit a mold for flavor than one you must do something else to get into. What I'm saying is that to get into PrC Assassin, you must either be a thief or a mage and then become an assassin. For the base class, you ARE a an Assassin. I think I explained that well enough... Did I?

Athaniar
2010-06-13, 01:48 PM
@Lord Xavius
I'd love to here about that rogue with explosives, and since everyone is "talking" about the Assassin; Not having read the base class Assassin, I can only guess that a class you take from level 1 and progress, would better fit a mold for flavor than one you must do something else to get into. What I'm saying is that to get into PrC Assassin, you must either be a thief or a mage and then become an assassin. For the base class, you ARE a an Assassin. I think I explained that well enough... Did I?

Well, both the DMG and SS Assassins are supposed to be elite members of secretive organizations.

Mossad Agent coming up "soon".

Ishcumbeebeeda
2010-06-13, 02:02 PM
@Lord Xavius
I'd love to here about that rogue with explosives, and since everyone is "talking" about the Assassin; Not having read the base class Assassin, I can only guess that a class you take from level 1 and progress, would better fit a mold for flavor than one you must do something else to get into. What I'm saying is that to get into PrC Assassin, you must either be a thief or a mage and then become an assassin. For the base class, you ARE a an Assassin. I think I explained that well enough... Did I?

Ah! Thank you! Not only did you explain it well, you also spelled out what it was that I couldn't quite put my finger on! (Typing pun mildly intended.) I that's the "something else" that I intuitively picked up that made me feel like the base Assassin had more flavor, whether it really does or not.


That they have natural access to spellcasting means that they don't need UMD quite so much. An Assassin can still only use items for magic if they wish, most of their good spells are better in wand form anyway. If you think that's hindering yourself too much you can always carry a few gadgets that you fluff as being the source of your magical effects. That an option is available doesn't mean it has to be used, particularly when it enables things that are more appropriate to your preffered flavour in addition. Basically if you want an Assassin that accesses magic only through items (scrolls, wands, whatever) then the Assassin Prestige Class is still probably a better base, even if you ignore actually casting your spells normally.

That's a fair point, but I just don't like having class features that I don't use. the refluff might work though.


Also, why wouldn't a special ops character have access to the most powerful and useful tools available. A modern special ops person is likely to have a gun and some above-average tech, so a D&D special ops character is likely to have magic, the approximate equivalent.

Well, that was actually kind of my point; to me inherent spellcasting, especially spontaneous casting, isn't a tool. "Tools" are external devises. To my way of thinking spellcasting is as much a "tool" as your arm; yes, one could technically classify it as a tool, but really when most people say tool they're speaking of some kind of external object, be it a complicated one like a predator drone or a simple stick jammed into an ant-hole. Something as inherent as spellcasting doesn't seem to fit that mold to me. Though the material components are tools, the actual ability to spellcast is too much a part of the creature doing it. At least to the way I think of a tool.

Coidzor
2010-06-13, 02:06 PM
Spellcasting is generally viewed as more of a skillset with the specific spells being the right tools for the job. And let's face it, spellcasting is one of the most valuable skills to possess in a D&D world.

However, it's mostly just semantics to care since generally we can understand one another and when any actual confusion comes up it's easily clarified.

Like butter. Mmmm, clarified butter. *drools*

Greenish
2010-06-13, 02:08 PM
Like I said, I'd been mislead about that, but the power classes one does have more class features that depend entirely on the fact that you basically get hired to break into houses and kill people in their sleep. Granted, the ability itself sucks, as it takes six hours to "case the join" and you only get, like, a +3 to something... I'm AFB so I don't remember, but it's a scaling bonus, and +3 is as high as it gets. So yeah, the ability itself sucks, but it does add some flavor.Yeah, see, you could have mentioned that as an example.

On scanning the thread, I see that you made an offhand reference to it (if you mean the "Meticulous Planning") without actually saying what it does.

Huh.... I coulda sworn... I thought I'd already said that in my first reply, but apparently I'd just thought of saying it.Well, I'm not seeing it. Perhaps you can quote yourself?

I got these:
It's really not that great for people who build for anything other than flavor.

The Assassin base class is pretty much a Rogue with some extra abilities based on wanting to actually assassinate people. Basically I think it has more "Assassin" flavor because it actually captures the "I'm really good at killing people in their sleep or poisoning their food, but not as great at killing them if they know I'm there and that I'm going to try to kill them" aspect of an assassin.Neither really expounds on why you have such an opinion.




What I'm saying is that to get into PrC Assassin, you must either be a thief or a mage and then become an assassin.Oh, sorry, I thought this was about 3.5?


[Edit]:
Ah! Thank you! Not only did you explain it well, you also spelled out what it was that I couldn't quite put my finger on! (Typing pun mildly intended.) I that's the "something else" that I intuitively picked up that made me feel like the base Assassin had more flavor, whether it really does or not.Well, that explains why I didn't get your point. I'm not big on thinking characters as "Hey, I'm a [Class]!".

Coidzor
2010-06-13, 02:13 PM
^: It should really only be a factor if the characters themselves are aware of such meta-game constructions.

I sorta waffle on how I feel about that, mostly because I've never really played in enough different ways to know how it'd impact things. Or really tried having the characters be meta-aware except in meta-asides during intraparty banter.
Oh, sorry, I thought this was about 3.5?

Semantics aside, you do have a point there. The Rogue class does have the Sneak Attack and the class skills and skill points to also be fluffed as an assassin, with the PrCs basically representing higher tiers of knowledge and prestige and rank within a guild or more esoteric/lucrative skills being added (spellcasting, more exotic class features such as Shadowdancer).

Ishcumbeebeeda
2010-06-13, 02:29 PM
[Edit]:Well, that explains why I didn't get your point. I'm not big on thinking characters as "Hey, I'm a [Class]!".

Assassin was a profession long before "classes" ever existed. I'll agree that some classes you probably shouldn't just say you are a [class]. Like Rogue, for example. And probably Barbarian. But Wizard, Sorcerer, Bard, Assassin, and a myriad of others were and are concepts other than a "class." Profession is the best word I can think of at the moment, and in the case of assassins and bards (note the use of lower case here; it's not a typo. When I capitalize a class I mean the class, when I don't I mean the profession/archetype/what-have-you that it was named for) that's literally correct.

theos911
2010-06-13, 02:38 PM
It is about 3.5. Sorry for the misunderstanding, what I meant was you must be built as a thief(rogue or maybe well done fighter or beguiler?), or a mage- wizard(likely) possibly sorcerer(that'd be hard) or again beguiler.


[Edit]:Well, that explains why I didn't get your point. I'm not big on thinking characters as "Hey, I'm a [Class]!".

I agree, that's why I didn't at first say you must start as a rogue or a beguiler to become a PrC assassin. I said thief or mage, implying the abilities and classes you would select for that build to be able to meet Assassin's prereqs.

Ishcumbeebeeda
2010-06-13, 02:45 PM
Yeah, see, you could have mentioned that as an example.

On scanning the thread, I see that you made an offhand reference to it (if you mean the "Meticulous Planning") without actually saying what it does.
Well, I'm not seeing it. Perhaps you can quote yourself?

Okay, I'll try to remember to use concrete examples. I apologize, I had been trying to keep the length of my explanations to a minimum and only said (and this is the second time I've quoted myself saying this):

Well, I've never played a prestige Assassin before, but from what I've been led to believe your abilities don't really depend on being an assassin.
I added the bold for emphasis. I believe this was the very first reason I gave, and I didn't think it would be necessary to give a concrete example. I thought that it would easy to infer from this statement that the base class has more flavor dependent abilities, and that what they are precisely was beside the point. I apologize if I overestimated the amount of information that that sentence contained.


I got these: Neither really expounds on why you have such an opinion.

See, this is part of the issue I was trying to explain earlier: The way my mind works, maybe just because I already know what I mean, the second quote you had did explain why I have such an opinion. Again, sorry about that. I guess I overestimate the amount of information people can get from what I say.

Also, this might help you to see why I hold my opinion: Refluff and similar ideas don't usually occur to me because most of my RL DMs wouldn't have let that fly. They thought more along the lines of "What is is and if you want something else go and find it." I'm not sure if that helps explain anything or not, but I figured laying out all the (even vaguely) relevant information probably couldn't hurt at this point, since I've long since abandoned trying not to be too lengthy.

Greenish
2010-06-13, 02:47 PM
Assassin was a profession long before "classes" ever existed. I'll agree that some classes you probably shouldn't just say you are a [class]. Like Rogue, for example. And probably Barbarian. But Wizard, Sorcerer, Bard, Assassin, and a myriad of others were and are concepts other than a "class." Profession is the best word I can think of at the moment, and in the case of assassins and bards (note the use of lower case here; it's not a typo. When I capitalize a class I mean the class, when I don't I mean the profession/archetype/what-have-you that it was named for) that's literally correct.Yes, I agree on that, but I replied to you agreeing to this sentiment:
For the base class, you ARE a an Assassin.Which does make it sound like you're more an assassin if you're Assassing with a capital A.



It is about 3.5. Sorry for the misunderstanding, what I meant was you must be built as a thief(rogue or maybe well done fighter or beguiler?), or a mage- wizard(likely) possibly sorcerer(that'd be hard) or again beguiler.

I agree, that's why I didn't at first say you must start as a rogue or a beguiler to become a PrC assassin. I said thief or mage, implying the abilities and classes you would select for that build to be able to meet Assassin's prereqs.What, why a sorcerer or a wizard? I mean, a ranger has the skills needed to qualify, and so do monks, but what have wizards or sorcerers to do with sneaking?

Ishcumbeebeeda
2010-06-13, 02:52 PM
Yes, I agree on that, but I replied to you agreeing to this sentiment:Which does make it sound like you're more an assassin if you're Assassing with a capital A.

Ah. I see. Maybe we took the sentiment to mean different things. Though for the life of me I can't seem to put exactly what I took it to mean into words... and I'm hesitant to try, because I'll probably wind up saying it wrong and just confusing the issue more.

Greenish
2010-06-13, 02:55 PM
I added the bold for emphasis. I believe this was the very first reason I gave, and I didn't think it would be necessary to give a concrete example. I thought that it would easy to infer from this statement that the base class has more flavor dependent abilitiesNo, what's easy to infer from that is that you didn't know what abilities PrC assassins have. It's a non-sensical statement.

See, this is part of the issue I was trying to explain earlier: The way my mind works, maybe just because I already know what I mean, the second quote you had did explain why I have such an opinion.But, but, but, I don't see how that's any different from the PrC assassin!

"The Assassin base class is pretty much a Rogue with some extra abilities based on wanting to actually assassinate people."

Well, guess what PrC Assassin is like? It's like rogue that has extra abilities based on wanting to actually assassinate people, like Death Attack, Poison Use or Hide in Plain Sight.

Also, this might help you to see why I hold my opinion: Refluff and similar ideas don't usually occur to me because most of my RL DMs wouldn't have let that fly. They thought more along the lines of "What is is and if you want something else go and find it." I'm not sure if that helps explain anything or not, but I figured laying out all the (even vaguely) relevant information probably couldn't hurt at this point, since I've long since abandoned trying not to be too lengthy.:smallconfused: So because your DMs aren't keen on refluffing, Assassin isn't about assassinating people the way Assassin is?



I'll probably wind up saying it wrong and just confusing the issue more.Oh, I wouldn't worry about that, I'm plenty confused as is. :smallwink:

Ishcumbeebeeda
2010-06-13, 03:00 PM
Obviously one of us is having issues with communication flow. I don't know if I'm not effectively communicating what I want to say or if you're just not getting it, but either way I've said all I think I can on the subject and at this point if I try to explain things any further it'll just be redundant, so I'm not talking about this any more. Suffice it to say that's my opinion and I don't need a reason (though I do have them, and as far as I can tell have expressed them; repeatedly) to have an opinion. That's why it's an opinion.

theos911
2010-06-13, 03:18 PM
*Sigh*
Let me try to be as concrete as possible.
I like them both.
They both have neat stuff.
They are both good at assassinating stuff.

For flavor, I believe them near equal. IMO, the base Assassin has more flavor because you start as it. The prestige Assassin is just as good. I really don't see a difference in their fluff, it's only because you start as one and stay true to it rather than starting as x and then becoming an Assassin, that I consider one to be more "Flavorful" than the other.

**phew I didn't end up starting another page AGAIN**

Vizzerdrix
2010-06-13, 03:24 PM
I am fond of: Beast Heart Adept. It's not a great PrC(mechanics-wise), its just a fun PrC. . . nothing like running around with a grey render or a manticore as a companion. . .

It's in Dungeonscape along side Trapsmith which is another fun class . . .

BEAST HEART ADEPT

Adventurers face monsters every time they descend
into a new dungeon. Most view the creatures as horrid
abominations that want nothing more than to cut
them down where they stand. However, the beast heart
adept sees through a monster’s frightening visage.
By attuning himself to the bestial urges of dungeon
creatures, he learns to form powerful bonds with a
small number of monsters. These creatures become
his devoted allies, and together they form a potent
fighting combination.

CLASS FEATURES
A beast heart adept forms something like a pack, with
himself at the center and his bestial allies as the members.
Under his tutelage and care, these monsters become stronger
and tougher. Over time, the beast heart adept learns
to optimize his fi ghting ability when battling alongside
his newfound allies.
Monstrous Companion (Ex): You gain the service
of a monstrous companion. the companion has the
same alignment as you.
Monster Empathy (Ex): You can use body language,
vocalization, and demeanor to improve the attitude of a
magical beast such as a chimera or a gorgon.
Monster Handler (Ex): You can make Handle Animal
checks with regard to magical beasts and aberrations
without penalty.
Monster Lore (Ex): At 2nd level, you gain uncanny
knowledge about all types of living monsters, including their
habitats, behavior, abilities, and weaknesses
Monstrous Flank (Ex):
At 4th level, you learn to better
coordinate your attacks with
your monstrous companion.
Extra Monstrous Companion (Ex):
At 5th level, you gain a second monstrous companion
Monstrous Tactics (Ex): Starting at 7th level, you and
your monstrous companions make an excellent team.
Monstrous Team-Up (Ex): When you reach 10th level,
all the members of your adventuring party now gain the
benefi ts of your monstrous fl ank and monstrous tactics
abilities.


I'm a fan of pet monsters too. I found a few feats in a Dragon Mag that lets you replace your animal companions with monsters. I'll see if I can find it again if you'd like.


Also: The Techsmith and forest master from Faiths and pantheons, and the Gnome Artificer PrC from Magic of Faerun.

The fist gets you a construct buddy that you customize as you go, the second slowly turns you into an angry tree with a Big Freaking Hammer, and the third one gets you non magical magic items.

Sindri
2010-06-13, 03:28 PM
One of the most obscure ones has to be the Kender Nightstalker. It appeared twice, as a fairly useless PrC in Age of Mortals and then as a pretty cool base class in Races of Ansalon (I'll talk about the second).

average BAB, good Ref and Will saves
gets skills and trapfinding like a rogue or factotum
casts spells like a Mystic, but with bard-ish level progression
has at-will Detect Undead as the spell
scaling bonus to saves vs all negative energy and necromany effects
in any area in which 5 or more creatures have died (such as anywhere you're adventuring) the lingering essences of the dead whisper secrets to you, giving a scaling insight bonus to all knowledge, listen, search, and spot checks
every few levels you can add any necromancy or divination spell, from any book, from any class to your list of spells
rebuke/command undead as an evil cleric three levels lower
gain a ghost cohort at levels 6, 12, and 18; their HD is 3 lover than yours, so their ECL is actually 2 higher after the ghost template
at level 20 become immune to negative energy damage, including level drain, and corrupting touch, immune to all necromancy spells and effects, and you and everything you touch get the Ghost Touch quality.

less cool things:
spell progression is slow (starts at 0 level, only goes up to 6th at level 16)
not as many skill points as other roguish classes
you only get to the awesome immunities at level 20
only a d6 hit die

In summary, you're highly resistant to any sort of negative energy effect, have a handful of high-powered cohorts with all their abilities plus ghost powers, can immediately tell the position, power level, and number of any undead within 60ft of you, get roguish skill lists and trapfinding, and the dead whisper the secrets of wherever you are.


It's even available to any race or alignment, though they tend to be at least half-Kender and lean towards Chaotic Good alignment.

Greenish
2010-06-13, 03:48 PM
One of the most obscure ones has to be the Kender Nightstalker.I have located the problem.

Anyhow, sounds quite interesting. An undead-controlling skillmonkey…


Oh, a request: could someone outline the Landforged Walker (or something like that), the Warforged druid PrC?

Sindri
2010-06-13, 04:11 PM
Another fun one from DragonLance is the Master.

It's basically the Expert upgraded to PC class level, just like with the Aristocrat->Noble

average BAB, good Will saves, d6 hit die
lots of skill points and class skills
each picks a primary focus at 1st, and a secondary at 7th, chosen from Craftsman, Performer, Professional, and Sage:
+2 to all skills from their specialty; when they pick their secondary it increases to +4
every 3 levels after 2nd they get a bonus feat
at 10th level, they choose 3+ int mod skills, from then on they can always take 10 on those skills regardless of circumstances
every 3 levels, they get a "knack" chosen from the lists for their specialties

a master craftsman can:
use any craft skill as if they had 1/2 the number of ranks in it as they do in their best craft skill
make masterwork items in half the time and half the cost
make masterwork items with greater bonuses; double at 4th level, triple at 7th, quadruple at 10th, and x5 at 13th. This means that you can make +5 nonmagical weapons, or tools that give a +10 to their skill, and it's pretty cheap to do so.

a master performer is basically a non-magical bard:
coordinate allies; take a full round action and a DC 10 diplomacy check to give all allies within 30ft +1 bonus to attacks and skills for each time you take this knack, for a number of rounds equal to your Cha modifier
inspire allies; any ally who watches you for a full round gets +2 on attacks, saves, and damage for your Cha mod in rounds if you make a DC 15 perform check
Inspire despair, hope or rage in one target; make a perform check opposed by their will save or they take the appropriate effect for 1d4+1 rounds; despair gives -2 on attacks, saves, skills, and damage, hope is +2 to same, rage is +2 str and con, +1 will, and -1 ac
use any perform skill in the place of any other at half ranks, as with the craftsman above

a master professional is kind of like an adventuring used car salesman:
fast-talk: +(master level /2) to bluff, diplomacy, and disguise
bluster: make a bluff check against the target's sense motive, apply -1 to attacks, saves, ability checks, skills, and saves for your Cha bonus in rounds; stacks with itself
gain a cohort
use any profession skill as any other at half ranks (merchant to innkeeper, salesman to chef, etc.)
gain followers as Leadership

a master sage:
add int bonus to any bluff, diplomacy, or intimidate checks related to any knowledge skill in which you have 4+ ranks, and get money from Knowledge the same way you can from craft, perform, or profession
use any knowledge skill as any other at half ranks (geography -> nuclear physics?)
after 1 round of combat, take a move action to make a DC 15 Int check, if successful, use Int instead of dex or strength for the duration of the combat
make an int check with half your Master levels as a bonus to understand any language you encounter, DC15 if it's related to something you know, DC 20 if it's completely unrelated, DC25 if it's completely unique or ancient; can make a check every minute they hear the language
bardic knowledge
once per encounter, make a knowledge(whatever is appropriate to the creature) check, DC 10+target's HD, to gain a +2 insight bonus on attacks against that creature for the duration of the encounter. Even works against individual people or humanoid cultures with knowledge(local) or (nobility and royalty)


Disadvantages:
no spellcasting whatsoever
only proficient with simple weapons and light armor
d6 HD
improved crafting while cool, still takes a long time

a one level dip into Master Sage can be good for any high int class, to replace str and/or dex with int on attacks; the decent BAB means that a high level sage could be a fun, unique type of warrior, who out thinks their opponents and uses careful strategy to make up for their lower strength and dexterity to defeat mighty foes
a master craftsman cohort is great for anyone, as it gives you access to very powerful, cheap items
the ability to take 10 on any check with several different skills is huge
the ability to use any skill in the right specialty for any other means that a master is massively versatile skill-wise; with max ranks in a single knowledge skill you can have a good chance of knowing everything.

Gametime
2010-06-13, 04:13 PM
I have located the problem.

Anyhow, sounds quite interesting. An undead-controlling skillmonkey…


Oh, a request: could someone outline the Landforged Walker (or something like that), the Warforged druid PrC?

Landforged Walker (Secrets of Xen'drik, p. 123)

Prerequisites: One feat and easy nature-based skill requirements. Rangers and druids can enter the most easily, but with skill-finagling a cleric or other divine caster could gain all the relevant benefits.

Pros: Bonus to hide checks in the right terrain, some minor free healing in the form of berries that can be granted to other party members for consumption, small resistance to cold and electricity, immunity to polymorph effects, 50% fortification, plant-related spell-like abilities, plant-only wild shape.

Cons: Only 4/5 spellcasting, doesn't advance animal companion or wild shape, poor Will and Reflex saves.

Since the plant wild shape uses your total character level, I would imagine it would best for a ranger or godly divine caster willing to lose the one caster level. Druids lose too much by not advancing wild shape or animal companion.

Vizzerdrix
2010-06-13, 04:19 PM
Landforged Walker (Secrets of Xen'drik, p. 123)


Oooh! A Cleric/ Landforged Walker/ Forest Master sounds like a cool idea! I wonder if I could build it?

Gametime
2010-06-13, 04:26 PM
Oooh! A Cleric/ Landforged Walker/ Forest Master sounds like a cool idea! I wonder if I could build it?

You'll need 2 ranks in Knowledge (Geography), 4 in Knowledge (nature), and 8 in Survival. The Knowledges can be cross-classed, or picked up with Cloistered Cleric or just the Knowledge domain, but Survival is tricky to get. Also, if you want to max each prestige class, you'd have to enter each as early as possible (Landforged at 5th, then Master at 10th).

You'll need a total of five feats by 10th level (one for Landforged, four for Master), which means you'll need flaws or (preferably) a lenient DM who will let Skill Focus: Survival count for Landforged instead of Skill Focus: Knowledge (geography).

If you can maneuver around those, though, it would be a pretty cool character.

EDIT: You'll also need to take the Plant domain to cover the spellcasting prereqs. Note that Control Plants was a 4th level druid (and Plant) spell in 3.0, but is a completely different 8th level spell in 3.5. Since clerics know all their spells anyway, I'd imagine you could get that waived, since a 10 level prestige class that can't be entered before 15th level is silly.

Vizzerdrix
2010-06-13, 04:31 PM
Needs moar plant though... !

Got it. Wild Cohort + the plant companion from Dragon Mag! Mwahahahaa!

And yeah, Cloistered Cleric would have to be the way to go.

Kobold-Bard
2010-06-13, 04:34 PM
Travel Domain gives a Cleric Survival as a Class Skill.

Greenish
2010-06-13, 04:35 PM
Cloistered cleric: Plant, Travel (or Weather, but Travel is a lot better) and Knowledge domains. All skills you need as class skills.

Gametime
2010-06-13, 04:37 PM
Cloistered cleric: Plant, Travel (or Weather, but Travel is a lot better) and Knowledge domains. All skills you need as class skills.

Tricksy clerics and their tricksy mutable class skill lists!

Spirit shaman would also work, although getting around the problem of druids losing too much from the classes by playing a markedly inferior druid substitute is a bit questionable. Their best class feature isn't online until 10th, anyway.

Optimystik
2010-06-13, 05:01 PM
Re: Landforged Walker - Ruathar (RotW) is the go-to PrC here, as it will give you all the required skills as class skills without losing any caster levels or requiring any specific domains/feats.

This means you can also enter LW as an Archivist - thus giving your Archivist full Wild Shape (plants only.)

The Body of Nature ability is great for Archivists as well. "Your body becomes your divine focus for your spells" - RAW, this applies to all your spells, not just your druid ones. Feel free to take VoP now that you no longer need a holy symbol.

Gadora
2010-06-13, 09:24 PM
Another fun one from DragonLance is the Master.

It's basically the Expert upgraded to PC class level, just like with the Aristocrat->Noble

What book is that from? I think it may have to go on my "to get" list.

theos911
2010-06-13, 09:52 PM
my internet is being stupid, i'm gonna be away a while

**I'll be surprised if this actually posts**

Ok I think it may be fixed, and since everyone stopped posting- GO continue the Awesome!

theos911
2010-06-14, 04:26 PM
**Bump**
**Seems appropriate considering since it's a popular thread**

Optimystik
2010-06-14, 04:46 PM
You don't have to bump a thread every day, you know :smalltongue: When people come up with more gems I'm sure they'll be posted.

Threads here have a decent shelf life before they become un-bumpable, so don't feel anxious if yours slides a bit.

I do have another couple of rundowns I'm working on, which I'll post when I get home from work.

theos911
2010-06-14, 04:49 PM
I Understand that, but I'm paranoid due to my internet coming and going as it pleases.

Kobold-Bard
2010-06-14, 04:58 PM
I Understand that, but I'm paranoid due to my internet coming and going as it pleases.

Mot people subscribe to threads they post in. If they come up with something new then they'll just bring it up. If no-one does then it's had its time and it should be left to drift to the forum seabed.

I've always liked the Fochlucan Lyrist, if only because I never played 1ed, but I love the hoops people had to jump through to be a Bard, and this lovely little homage makes me feel all pseudo-nostalgic.

theos911
2010-06-14, 05:03 PM
What is this "Sub-scrip-tion" you speak of?

Optimystik
2010-06-14, 07:15 PM
I've always liked the Fochlucan Lyrist, if only because I never played 1ed, but I love the hoops people had to jump through to be a Bard, and this lovely little homage makes me feel all pseudo-nostalgic.

That class irritates the bejeebus out of me. Why do you need evasion?? :smallannoyed:

I'm still convinced it was a typo.


What is this "Sub-scrip-tion" you speak of?

At the top of the page is a button labelled "Thread Tools." With it you can subscribe to any thread you find interesting, and jump to it instantly from your profile.

Next write-up.

***
Here's one I don't see mentioned very often - the Magelord, from Lost Empires of Faerun. It's also available online. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050202a&page=2)

Overview:
The Magelord is an "agent" type of wizard. It blends in bits of rogue and sorcerer with its wizardry to make you a bit more able to react on the fly and strike from the shadows. Its focus on rays dovetails very nicely with Spellwarp Sniper, so consider pullling that one into your build as well, but the low SA damage is a definite turnoff. I would advise this one as a dip.

Pros:

- 10/10 casting, always welcome
- Grants sneak attack, instead of just advancing it (a la Arcane Trickster.) It also does so explicitly, unlike Unseen Seer - all without losing CL.
- You master spells as you progress (see Spell Mastery (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#spellMasterySpecial)), allowing you to prepare them without your spellbook. Nice but not amazing. The real goodness comes later:
- Signature Supremacy - now you can spontaneously convert your prepared spells to any of the ones you've mastered (first 4th and lower, then 9th and lower). This goes from good to great once you realize it applies to any spell you've mastered, not just the ones you mastered via the PrC.
- Magelord Mastery - You have now gone meta; consider this ability to be the metamagic version of Spell Mastery. Not only can you convert prepared spells to your mastered ones, you can apply metamagic to them on the fly. (For example - I've mastered Scorching Ray, a 2nd-level spell - I want to convert the Shout I prepared this morning. MM lets me add up to +2 metamagic that I know to my scorching ray spontaneously, so I could make it Still and Silent if I knew those feats.


Cons:

- 3/10 sneak attack - pretty lackluster, though a 1 level dip just to gain the ability without losing CL isn't necessarily a bad idea.
- Poor fort and will - as these are generally the saves that can screw you over more, this could be a problem.
- Poor prereqs (There's that damn "evasion" again - and good luck getting it "as a class feature or racial ability" without a dip or LA. You don't even have the ring option that the FL gets!)
- 10,000 gp to enter? WTF? You're a roguish mage, just steal the damn books.


Why it was overlooked:
The main reason that comes to mind is that LEoF is an obscure book. But the class is at least online.

Kobold-Bard
2010-06-14, 07:17 PM
That class irritates the bejeebus out of me. Why do you need evasion?? :smallannoyed:

I'm still convinced it was a typo.

...

You needed Thief levels to be an old Bard (I believe), hence Evasion.

Optimystik
2010-06-14, 07:29 PM
You needed Thief levels to be an old Bard (I believe), hence Evasion.

Ah, so it's bad editing due to being a legacy expy.
That makes me feel so much better. Especially since they printed the bloody thing online (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050107a&page=2) and could have easily caught/errataed the mistake then, too. :smallsigh:

theos911
2010-06-18, 10:06 PM
Does anyone have any neat Incranum or Psionic classes? I don't know either mechanic very well, but I enjoy them both from what I see.

DragoonWraith
2010-06-18, 10:31 PM
There are so few Incarnum classes (all of them are in Magic of Incarnum), and we've had a bunch of the Psionic classes (which got more support than pretty much every other sub-system combined, but still ultimately not all that much), that there's not really much to say. I'm sure there's some cool Psionic classes that no one's mentioned, but for Incarnum, I mean... there's the Incarnate and Totemist, who are awesome but everyone who knows Incarnum knows that, and the Soulborn, which terribad and again everyone who knows Incarnum knows that. For the prestige classes, the Totem Rager is awesome, but it's probably the most popular PrC in the book, the Ironsoul Forgemaster's also pretty popular, and other than that there's pretty much the Sapphire Hierarch (Divine/Incarnum theurge) and Soulcaster (Arcane/Incarnum theurge)...

Kaulesh
2010-06-18, 10:34 PM
For psionic classes, I just happened to be reading a thread on Brilliant Gameologists that mentioned the third-party book Untapped Potential. There's an npc class in it called Augur or something like that.

DragoonWraith
2010-06-18, 11:04 PM
Untapped Potential and Hyperconscious both have gotten some pretty good reviews by Psionics fans here.

Thurbane
2010-06-19, 01:43 AM
Well, if we're going 3rd party, I've heard good things about the two "Voodoo" base class in Mythic Vistas: Skull & Bones. They are the Bokor and the Hougan.

Bokor get "Wanga" per day, similar to how a Sorcerer gets spells. Using these causes him physical damage.

Hougan get divine spells per day, as well as "favors" per day.

theos911
2010-06-19, 05:59 AM
It's a bit off main topic, but I'm making a dragon shaman;I think they are awesome, so it kinda relates. I'm looking for suggestions of feats or tree or other cool stuff for a desert gnome bronze bloodline Bronze Dragon Shaman

For those who mentioned those "Who know the mechanics/subsystem", yaaa....... I really don't know either Psionics or Incarnum aside from the very basics.

DragoonWraith
2010-06-19, 09:10 AM
The Dragon Shaman's pretty weak, generally. The Fast Healing thing until 50% is OK-ish, but not really that great. It's a pretty solid meh.

theos911
2010-06-19, 12:55 PM
Not to restart the whole Celestial Mystic / Contemplative argument again but please go here (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5198.0),and note that on his tier scale, both received a +1. That even surprised me! FoR was also a +1, which again did surprise me. Sadly Exhalted Arcanist got a -1:smallfrown:

theos911
2010-06-21, 08:10 AM
I just saw Stormsinger in Frostburn, whats the consensus on it?

Optimystik
2010-06-21, 08:30 AM
Not to restart the whole Celestial Mystic / Contemplative argument again but please go here (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5198.0),and note that on his tier scale, both received a +1. That even surprised me! FoR was also a +1, which again did surprise me. Sadly Exhalted Arcanist got a -1:smallfrown:

That list is quite suspect in my eyes - only a few PrCs specify an optimal entry class to justify the rating, and you definitely need that information to really know a PrC's worth. For example, Gray Guard also got +1, but all it really adds to the standard Paladin is fluff, and takes away 5 CL to do it. Similarly, Zerth Cenobite is listed as +1, and while it is indeed better than a pure monk (which already isn't saying much), it's an extremely poor choice for an Archivist. (Both can satisfy the prereqs.)

And the fact that EA got a -1 only cements my apprehension.


I just saw Stormsinger in Frostburn, whats the consensus on it?

Stormsinger is decent, but suffers from the same problem as every other "caster bard" PrC - it just pales in comparison to Sublime Chord.

Furthermore, the PrC provides benefits for casting spells while in storms, but it doesn't actually give you any protection besides the electricity resistance. This means using your abilities will force you to make Concentration checks to keep casting, since the PrC doesn't specify otherwise.

balistafreak
2010-06-21, 08:33 AM
Dragonfire Adepts from Dragon Magic are like Dragon Shamans... just better.

Heck, Dragon Shaman auras can be replicated with feats, and if you're dragonblooded (which you will be if you become a Dragonfire Adept as a class feature) the feat-auras even scale with level, so it's hardly a unique Dragon Shaman feature.

Also, your offensive potential is much better, and you get a very small number invocations, which although few in number are totally sweet. (No, seriously, +6 to social skills, identify at will, darkvision and see invisibility at will... and those are just the least level ones!)

I'm playing one right now. It rocks. Much better than some crummy aura Dragon Shaman.

Optimystik
2010-06-21, 08:40 AM
Dragonfire Adepts from Dragon Magic are like Dragon Shamans... just better.

Heck, Dragon Shaman auras can be replicated with feats, and if you're dragonblooded (which you will be if you become a Dragonfire Adept as a class feature) the feat-auras even scale with level, so it's hardly a unique Dragon Shaman feature.

Also, your offensive potential is much better, and you get a very small number invocations, which although few in number are totally sweet. (No, seriously, +6 to social skills, identify at will, darkvision and see invisibility at will... and those are just the least level ones!)

I'm playing one right now. It rocks. Much better than some crummy aura Dragon Shaman.

Psst... the Dragon Shaman thread is down a ways.

balistafreak
2010-06-21, 08:55 AM
Hey, this guy asked too. (A couple days ago, admittedly. Eh. :smallannoyed:)

Person_Man
2010-06-21, 09:16 AM
Does anyone have any neat Incranum or Psionic classes? I don't know either mechanic very well, but I enjoy them both from what I see.

Necrocarnate is theoretically awesome. You basically give up your essentia progression (but not your meldshaping or chakra binds), and in exchange you get the ability to absorb essentia for 24 hours from the recently dead. The theoretical optimization is that you pour boiling water on an ant hill and get a million essentia. But even when played "honestly" you can absolutely rock, because you get MORE powerful after every combat you fight each game day (instead of less powerful, like most other classes). And Incarnate 4/Totemist 2/Anything 1/Necrocarnate 13 is the only build in the game that opens every chakra slot (Totem, Heart, Soul, and everything else) pre-epic. Or you could go Kalashtar (race that can naturally manifest Mindlink) Incarnate 4/Whatever 2/Thrallheard 1 to get an endless supply of minions to kill as needed. The down side is that you start some game days with 7ish points of essentia, and need to hide like a pansy behind your necrocarnum zombie until things start to die.

Quirp
2010-06-21, 09:21 AM
Just a class I found recently (and I know why no one uses it) is the Fiendbinder from Tome of Magic. It is great fluffwise (in my opinion), but is not overly strong.

Pro: - for a small amount of gold you get one demon slave and you can buy as many as you want
- its a casting PrC and therefore not unusable
- really, really awesome fluff

Con:- loses three caster levels
- uses truespeak
- commanding the demons is not really effective in combat

DragoonWraith
2010-06-21, 09:24 AM
It costs 3 spellcasting levels and a ton of money for an effect massively weaker than the level-equivalent version of Planar Binding. That PrC is one of the biggest let-downs in 3.5, because yes, the fluff is so cool.

Optimystik
2010-06-21, 09:30 AM
Does anyone have any neat Incranum or Psionic classes? I don't know either mechanic very well, but I enjoy them both from what I see.

If you like them both, the Soul Manifester (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20060217a) is exactly what you need. The synergy is amazing too, because psionics can open chakras for use with Incarnum.

You do have to somewhat understand both systems before you can really use the class to its potential though.

@ Dragoonwraith - there you go, an Incarnum PrC outside of MoI :smalltongue:


Necrocarnate is theoretically awesome. You basically give up your essentia progression (but not your meldshaping or chakra binds), and in exchange you get the ability to absorb essentia for 24 hours from the recently dead. The theoretical optimization is that you pour boiling water on an ant hill and get a million essentia. But even when played "honestly" you can absolutely rock, because you get MORE powerful after every combat you fight each game day (instead of less powerful, like most other classes).

I love the adaptation too, which lets you ditch a lot of the Necrocarnum squick and in favor of holy-goody-fluffly Vivicarnum.

DragoonWraith
2010-06-21, 09:33 AM
@ Dragoonwraith - there you go, an Incarnum PrC outside of MoI :smalltongue:
I thought Soul Manifester was literally just Soulcaster with "+1 level of existing Arcane spellcasting class" replaced with "+1 level of existing Psionic manifesting class", so it didn't count in my mind. Is it actually different?

But yeah, Magic of Incarnum gets bonus points in my book for a surprising amount of material for Psionics in a non-Psionic book.

Optimystik
2010-06-21, 09:44 AM
I thought Soul Manifester was literally just Soulcaster with "+1 level of existing Arcane spellcasting class" replaced with "+1 level of existing Psionic manifesting class", so it didn't count in my mind. Is it actually different?

They are largely similar - it is the greater synergy between psionics and incarnum in general that makes it stand out over arcane + incarnum. Psions are able to open their chakras, for instance; they have a Wis-based primary manifester for DC synergy; and the granular nature of power points makes them slightly easier to convert to essentia and vice-versa than discrete spell slots.

DragoonWraith
2010-06-21, 09:57 AM
Psions don't use Wis, PsyWars and Ardents do. Then again, when multiclassing, Ardent is better anyway, so...

Optimystik
2010-06-21, 09:58 AM
Psions don't use Wis, PsyWars and Ardents do. Then again, when multiclassing, Ardent is better anyway, so...

I know, they were the "Wis-based manifester" I was referring to.

DragoonWraith
2010-06-21, 10:00 AM
I misread that as "they [read:Psions] have Wis-based manifesting"

theos911
2010-06-21, 10:33 AM
@Optimystik
HeHeHe, You missed the one feat, That I have NEVER made a bard without. Melodic Casting my friend, Never make another concentration check again.

Aharon
2010-06-21, 10:43 AM
@DragoonWraith
Seems we come to blows about material from the ToM again :smallsmile:
I would argue that, while weaker than Planar Binding, what a Fiendbinder does is still decently powerwise. I mean, Planar Binding is very often cited as too strong - a weaker option isn't a let-down, but an attempt to balance an awesome mechanic.

By pouring lots of cash in your binding, you can still get results like in this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=153506&highlight=yitzi) match of Olo vs. Yitzi (Though that was, admittedly, against a melee build that was less optimized.)

Optimystik
2010-06-21, 10:47 AM
@Optimystik
HeHeHe, You missed the one feat, That I have NEVER made a bard without. Melodic Casting my friend, Never make another concentration check again.

I remember it; you're still rolling dice to cast all your spells successfully though, even if you have a bigger chance of success. (And everyone else in the party is too, and likely not happy with you.) Depending on the ability you use, the DC scales with you too.

There's also secondary annoyances that aren't covered; Melodic Casting won't help you hold on to a material component that's going to get blown out of your hand by a gale-force wind, or improve your visibility when a blizzard is reducing it, or help you hold your footing when the ground gets slicked with ice etc. So your class features can work against you even with that feat.

DragoonWraith
2010-06-21, 10:51 AM
@DragoonWraith
Seems we come to blows about material from the ToM again :smallsmile:
I would argue that, while weaker than Planar Binding, what a Fiendbinder does is still decently powerwise. I mean, Planar Binding is very often cited as too strong - a weaker option isn't a let-down, but an attempt to balance an awesome mechanic.

By pouring lots of cash in your binding, you can still get results like in this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=153506&highlight=yitzi) match of Olo vs. Yitzi (Though that was, admittedly, against a melee build that was less optimized.)
The Fiendbinder's ability is not worth 1 spellcasting level, much less 3. The fact that Planar Binding is strictly superior is really just icing on the cake; even if Planar Binding never existed, the Fiendbinder would still not be worth it.

Aharon
2010-06-21, 11:07 AM
Well, I don't know about you, but I consider the ability to have an army of 9 succubi and 5 vrocks at 13th level quite decent powerwise. You are quite ahead action-economy wise, with that amount of help. I agree that the power of the prc diminishes at higher levels, but I don't think that's to much of an issue, seeing how most games don't reach these levels at all.

Sure, it's not on par with other strong characters, but it's well within Tier 2 (ToS tiers, not JaronK tiers), and it's sufficient to beat a kind of optimized melee character (ToS tier 4).

DragoonWraith
2010-06-21, 11:18 AM
You're not ahead on action economy, because you need to use your actions to direct the things you've bound. That is my primary complaint.

Also, that army would take a massive chunk of your WBL...

Aharon
2010-06-21, 11:23 AM
It does, about 60%.
Concerning action economy: Darn, forgot about that. It had been some time since I read the class, and I relied on the match I cited. Either Olo found a way to circumvent the "giving orders" part, or he shouldn't have won that match.
*grumble* Shouldn't rely on other peoples matches in a discussion *grumble*

Point conceeded for now, need to take a closer look. If what Olo did was viable, my point stands, if it doesn't, I totally conceed.

Person_Man
2010-06-21, 11:51 AM
I love the adaptation too, which lets you ditch a lot of the Necrocarnum squick and in favor of holy-goody-fluffly Vivicarnum.

I haven't heard of that. Is that homebrew, a WotC article I've never read, or a two sentence thing tacked on to the end of the PrC that I missed (like so many people miss the Swordsage adaptation)?

balistafreak
2010-06-21, 12:26 PM
I haven't heard of that. Is that homebrew, a WotC article I've never read, or a two sentence thing tacked on to the end of the PrC that I missed (like so many people miss the Swordsage adaptation)?

It's under the "Adaptation" section, way after most of the rules, past the (acres of) fluff.

So basically in the same area as the Swordsage adaptation, yes.

Personally, I hate PrCs with fluff requirements, so jumping up and down on adaptations like this is great for me. :smallwink:

Optimystik
2010-06-21, 01:14 PM
I haven't heard of that. Is that homebrew, a WotC article I've never read, or a two sentence thing tacked on to the end of the PrC that I missed (like so many people miss the Swordsage adaptation)?

It's a paragraph on page 135. It's primarily a fluff change ("remove all the 'screaming souls' visible in necrocarnate soulmelds, change the zombies into 'reborn' etc.) but there is a little crunch to it, since Incarnum is tied to alignment. Vivicarnum lets you combine the corpse-powering mechanic with good-aligned soulmelds.



...The actual mechanics of the class could remain the same, and even necrocarnum zombies could still be used. Simply rename them (call them "Reborn," for example) and recast them as holy vessels given a second brief chance at life through the miracle of vivicarnum.


Personally, I hate PrCs with fluff requirements, so jumping up and down on adaptations like this is great for me. :smallwink:

I agree with this. Don't tell me what won't work for my character, WotC. :smallannoyed:

(Ironically, "Vivicarnum" was created because they figured Necrocarnum wouldn't work from a PC standpoint due to the "for teh evulz" outlook required.)

Gametime
2010-06-21, 04:58 PM
It's a paragraph on page 135. It's primarily a fluff change ("remove all the 'screaming souls' visible in necrocarnate soulmelds, change the zombies into 'reborn' etc.) but there is a little crunch to it, since Incarnum is tied to alignment. Vivicarnum lets you combine the corpse-powering mechanic with good-aligned soulmelds.



Shame it goes from having a really cool name to a really stupid one. :smallfrown:

Optimystik
2010-06-21, 06:51 PM
Shame it goes from having a really cool name to a really stupid one. :smallfrown:

YMMV, I thought the name was great. (Vivi = alive, as in "vivisection" or "vivacious.")

I mean, they could have gone with something much sillier, like "Sancticarnum" or "Holycarnum."

PId6
2010-06-21, 07:00 PM
"Holycarnum."
Holycarnum, Batman!

Gametime
2010-06-21, 07:50 PM
YMMV, I thought the name was great. (Vivi = alive, as in "vivisection" or "vivacious.")

I mean, they could have gone with something much sillier, like "Sancticarnum" or "Holycarnum."

"Vivi" is a great prefix for some words; vivisection really rolls off the tongue. Vivicarnum, though, just sounds like a hamfisted way to stick a "life" word in place of a "death" word. Necrocarnum has that great recurring "c" that really makes the word come together, as well as the multiple r's.

But, as you say, your mileage may vary. Part of my issue might be that it makes me imagine a really short meldshaper in blue robes with a floppy hat. :smalltongue:

Lhurgyof
2010-06-21, 08:12 PM
Probably the Umber Hulk from Savage Species. :P

Pros: You can be a god damned umber hulk! Burrowing, stat bonuses, confusing vision, strong natural attacks. Good Strength/Con and good natural armor. Plus: Tremorsense.

Cons: As with other Racial Classes, your hp, saves, skills, feats, and bab aren't up to par, although a lot of this is made up for with your racial stats and abilities.

Coidzor
2010-06-21, 08:13 PM
See, I have a problem with the opposite end of the word. "-carnum" just makes me think of caramel.

...So, yeah... Necrocarnum makes me think of undead caramels. :smalleek:

Kobold-Bard
2010-06-22, 05:35 AM
See, I have a problem with the opposite end of the word. "-carnum" just makes me think of caramel.

...So, yeah... Necrocarnum makes me think of undead caramels. :smalleek:

Undead camels?

Can camels be made into zombies? Obviously you wouldn't make a skeleton, the water would fall straight through the hump.

theos911
2010-06-22, 05:07 PM
Incantratrix, seems neat. I read it, but I'm missing whats "Soooo Awesome" about it. It seems very good, but everyone praises it's "Awesomeness". What is it that makes it awesome?

PId6
2010-06-22, 05:11 PM
Incantratrix, seems neat. I read it, but I'm missing whats "Soooo Awesome" about it. It seems very good, but everyone praises it's "Awesomeness". What is it that makes it awesome?
Metamagic Effect = free Persists on all your spells.
Cooperative Metamagic = free Persist on all your allies' spells.
Instant Metamagic = even more free Persists! (Except for sorcerers. :smallannoyed:)
Improved Metamagic = Twinned Invisible Searing Empowered Maximized Orbs of Fire in 4th level slots.

And then they get four bonus feats and some neat abilities.

theos911
2010-06-22, 05:37 PM
ok apparently, I missed most(all) of those things.... I'm off to reread...

Flickerdart
2010-06-22, 05:38 PM
Undead camels?

Can camels be made into zombies? Obviously you wouldn't make a skeleton, the water would fall straight through the hump.
That's hilarious. Yes, I believe camel zombies work.

Optimator
2010-06-22, 08:08 PM
When it comes to awesome but rare PrCs, nothing can hold a candle of invocation to the vast wealth that are the Forgotten Realms spatbooks. Soo much fun stuff inside pretty much every book.

I always liked the Shade Hunter from CoR. Not fantastic by any stetch, but flavorful and fun. Spell list is kinda weak compared to other PrCs that have similar 4th level casting but the 4th level spells are cool. Always nice to be self-sufficient. I made one in a campaign where there was a world war that ruined a highly advanced civilization or two 100 years in the past (Shade Hunters can detect the **** out of any item that has been stationary for 100 years or more). Wealth ensued.

From the same book the Justice of Weald and Woe is pretty good, but I don't know if it's considered "unknown" since it's one of the best archery PrCs.

The Talontar Blightlord in Unapproachable East has always seemed cool to me. Inferior to a normal Druid in most--if not all--ways, yet still has neat class features and good flavor. I figured it would be pretty cool for a Druid who uses the Druidic Avenger ACF from UA. I just now realized Clerics can qualify.

Nentyar Hunter (UE) gets some fun goodies over 5 levels, including a surprisingly potent spell list. Requirements are a little steep, although a Ranger entry would be both logical and convenient.

Runescarred Berserker is from UE, but most of us know their glory. So is Shou Disciple. And Telflammar Shadowlord. What a book!

Peerless Archer from Silver Marches is pretty good as well. Another great Archery PrC. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ExactlyWhatItSaysOnTheTin) Technically 3.0 but there are no rules conflicts using it straight, as far as I can tell.

Loredelvers from RoD are pretty cool if you don't mind the hit.

theos911
2010-06-23, 03:39 PM
I only got a bit of commentary on stormsinger, I'm looking for some suggestions on playing one well, or maybe a feat choice or two. Thank you much:smallbiggrin:

PlzBreakMyCmpAn
2010-06-23, 06:21 PM
Is it bad that I not only know all these PrCs, but have considered using most of them in one or another of my builds?


Turn Undead level = Turn-Undead-granting class levels + Arcane Caster LevelNot for turning undead it doesn't