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Jokasti
2010-06-09, 05:28 PM
As some of you may know, Elagune has crafted an awesome webcomic by the name of Bibliography (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148477). The system used in it is intriguing and a lot of the readers want to play a game with the rules of the world (you would to, go read it!). So we come to you, Artisans, to create this game.
Different Codices have different powers, so werewolves (of the Lunar Codex) should have speed and claw related powers, while eyedolls (of the All-Seeing Codex) should have eye and recon related powers, etc.

Jokasti
2010-06-09, 05:50 PM
What we have so far:

Attributes:
Strength
Dexterity
Stamina
Intelligence
Wits
Charisma

Attributes are rated 1-10, with 3 being the average human ability. You get two Codex Attributes based on your Codex, and can choose one Favored Attribute. Upgrading these favored attributes cost less XP than ones that aren’t. Strength shows how strong you are, Dexterity how agile, Stamina how sturdy. Intelligence shows your capacity for spells, Wits is how fast you react and Charisma how charismatic you are.

Chargen:

Choose a Codex. Note Codex Attributes. Choose a Favored Attribute. You have 10 points to spend in Codex/Favored, and 7 in the other three. Each Attribute starts at 2.
Each Codex has 50 spells. Roll 5d10. Look Here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8760791&postcount=2)
My first roll was a 9. Therefore, my first spell is #9.
My second roll was a 8. Therefore, my second spell is #18.
My third roll was a 7. Therefore, my third spell is #27.
My fourth roll was a 2. Therefore, my fourth spell is #32.
My fifth roll was a 3. Therefore, my fifth spell is #43.
Alternate rule: roll 10d10, 2 for each 10 spells. Choose 1 of the 2 from each 10 spells.

You have 10 Bonus Points.
{table] Cost | Effect

1 | Specialty in an Attribute

2 | X

3 | Create a variation of a Spell that you know

4 | Raise a Favored Attribute by 1

5 | Raise an Attribute that isn't Favored by 1

6 | Learn a spell. Roll 5d10 as before, and choose one.[/table]

John Cribati
2010-06-09, 05:53 PM
Air Codex is wind manipulation. Dex and Wits would be the best choice for them.

Jokasti
2010-06-09, 06:49 PM
Favored Attributes:
Holy Codex: Intelligence and Charisma
Lunar Codex: Dexterity and Wits
All-Seeing Codex: Intelligence and Wits

Owrtho
2010-06-10, 12:32 AM
I suggest allowing a favoured attribute to be a codex 1, and in exchange you start higher than 2 in it (but not too high).

Owrtho

Jokasti
2010-06-10, 06:06 PM
Can you explain? I don't think I understand.

Owrtho
2010-06-21, 11:24 PM
You say each attribute would start at 2. My suggestion is that if a character has their favoured attribute be one that is already a part of their codex, they start with 4 or 5 in it. This may or may not allow the attribute to go above 10. It would give a reason that someone might make a character who has a favoured attribute be one of the ones their codex excels at. Otherwise even if the fluff would point to that, there is no mechanical reason for them to do so (it just means they have less attributes that cost less xp to upgrade.

Owrtho

Jokasti
2010-06-21, 11:42 PM
That's true. So how about:
Neither Caste or Favored starts at 2.
Caste/Favored starts at 3.
Caste&Favored starts at 4.

Jokasti
2010-06-21, 11:49 PM
{table=head]Codex|Favored Attributes
All-Seeing Codex| Intelligence and Wits
Atlantis Codex| Stamina and Dexterity
Candle Codex| Strength and Intelligence
Codex of Salem| Intelligence and Wits
Codex of Solomon| n/a
Codex of Temptation| Charisma and Dexterity
Freezing Codex| Stamina and Intelligence
Gelatinous Codex| Dexterity and Stamina
Holy Codex| Intelligence and Charisma
Lunar Codex| Dexterity and Wits
Ma'at's Codex| Strength and Stamina
Nine-Tailed Codex| Wits and Charisma
Sanguine Codex| n/a
Shambling Codex| Strength and Stamina
Trickster's Codex| Intelligence and Wits[/table]

Jokasti
2010-06-22, 12:41 AM
Abilities
While Attributes show your character's natural stats, Abilities show the stats that your character earns through training.
Melee- Used for attacking an opponent in close combat.
Range- Used for attacking an opponent in ranged combat.
Magic- Shows aptitude with Magic
Dodge- Shows how well you can dodge or parry an attack.
Lore- Shows how well you know of The World.
Athletics- Used to determine possible actions.
Socialize- Used to gain allies at Page Events, and stop combat.
Investigate- Used to find clues and decipher codes.
Sneak- A combination of Stealth and larceny. How well you can move without being noticed and steal things.
Awareness- How aware you are of your surroundings.
When you choose a Codex, you gain 3 Codex Abilities. You may choose 2 favored Abilities. Raising these cost less XP than normal. These are also on a 1-10 scale, however, 0 is the normal human score. You start with a score of 0 in every ability, except for Codex abilities (start at 1), and Favored at 2. You may spend 10 points on Codex/Favored abilities, and 10 on the others.

Jokasti
2010-06-22, 12:42 AM
{table=head]Codex|Favored Attributes|Favored Abilities
All-Seeing Codex| Intelligence and Wits|Magic, Lore, Awareness
Atlantis Codex| Stamina and Dexterity|n/a
Candle Codex| Strength and Intelligence|Range, Dodge, Athletics
Codex of Salem| Intelligence and Wits|Magic, Lore, Socialize
Codex of Solomon| n/a|n/a
Codex of Temptation| Charisma and Dexterity|Dodge, Socialize, Sneak
Freezing Codex| Stamina and Intelligence|Range, Dodge, Lore
Gelatinous Codex| Dexterity and Stamina|Dodge, Athletics, Sneak
Holy Codex| Intelligence and Charisma|Magic, Lore, Socialize
Lunar Codex| Dexterity and Wits|Melee, Dodge, Athletics
Ma'at's Codex| Strength and Stamina|Melee, Dodge, Investigate
Nine-Tailed Codex| Wits and Charisma|n/a
Sanguine Codex| n/a|n/a
Shambling Codex| Strength and Stamina|Melee, Dodge, Magic
Trickster's Codex| Intelligence and Wits|Range, Sneak, Awareness
[/table]

Mina Kobold
2010-06-22, 03:48 AM
This looks good :smallsmile:

But what do we do if someone wants a 1-10 spell instead of a 11-20 spell?

And for that matter, should there be rules for getting more spells or do you just have to find somebody who know them?

HypoSoc
2010-06-22, 07:08 AM
Atlantis Codex
Dodge, Athletics, and Socialize

Solomon Codex
Intelligence and Strength
Melee, Magic, Lore

What about Librarians?
How about they have the choice of any attribute and ability to be favoured ssince they have no spells of special abilities?

Also, can you explain caste to me? I don't see it mentioned.

Sanguine
2010-06-22, 10:25 AM
Atlantis Codex
Dodge, Athletics, and Socialize

Solomon Codex
Intelligence and Strength
Melee, Magic, Lore

What about Librarians?
How about they have the choice of any attribute and ability to be favoured ssince they have no spells of special abilities?

Also, can you explain caste to me? I don't see it mentioned.

I think Caste was an accident on his part as this system seems to draw from Exalted. If my theory is correct that would mean Caste should actually be Codex. If I'm completely off-base I have no idea what it means.

And am I the only one who finds it odd that we are giving Codex Attributes and Abilities to codices that haven't shown up in either continuity yet?

Jokasti
2010-06-22, 11:21 AM
Err, yeah, what he said. It's on the mind <.<
I'll fix that.
And those are based solely off of guesses. If we see a Merman, for example, and he seems to favor a different set, we'll just change it.

Jokasti
2010-06-22, 11:26 AM
Libraians will come later, after Pages are done. And HypoSoc, the current theory on Solomon is summoning, so Strength would not make sense for them.

HypoSoc
2010-06-22, 01:18 PM
The Golem's strength, I meant.

Owrtho
2010-06-22, 01:25 PM
Solomon would likely be Intelligence and Wits, as Solomon was known for his wisdom.

Owrtho

HypoSoc
2010-06-22, 01:28 PM
I know, but Reaction seemed a strange definition of wits.

Mina Kobold
2010-06-22, 01:37 PM
The Golem's strength, I meant.

That's more magic than strength since this is about the Pages' abilities and not their creations :smallsmile:

HypoSoc
2010-06-22, 01:38 PM
The pages could be the golems though. We'll see soon.

Jokasti
2010-06-22, 01:40 PM
Well I could see arguments for just about all of them except strength for Solomon:
Stamina: they have to be sturdy when summoning stronger spirits
Intelligence: They need to be smart in order to learn spells, summoning circles, djfferent types of summonable creatures.
Wits: They hav to think fast. Also, summoning is a battles of
wills between the Page and summoned.
Charisma: they have to be able to
bind the creatures they summon with honeyed words

HypoSoc
2010-06-22, 01:58 PM
But Solomon codex could be becoming golems, not summoning.

Mina Kobold
2010-06-22, 02:09 PM
But Solomon codex could be becoming golems, not summoning.

The golems we've seen appear to have been constructed by their "Father"

I still agree that it's more likely that they have golem-related powers, though :smallsmile:

Glimbur
2010-06-22, 02:43 PM
Each Codex has 50 spells. Roll 5d10. The first is your 1-10 spell, the second your 11-20 spell, the third your 21-30 spell, the fourth your 31-40 spell, and the fifth your 41-50 spell.

This part is really confusing to me. It looks like you want people's spells known to be randomly selected from their list. I don't like that, but whatever. The confusing part is that 5d10 does not give you a range of 1-50. It gives 5-50, with 27.5 being the most likely result and more extreme results being less common. If you wanted every spell to be equally likely to be known, you could try 1d100/2 five times for your five spells.

Mina Kobold
2010-06-22, 02:54 PM
This part is really confusing to me. It looks like you want people's spells known to be randomly selected from their list. I don't like that, but whatever. The confusing part is that 5d10 does not give you a range of 1-50. It gives 5-50, with 27.5 being the most likely result and more extreme results being less common. If you wanted every spell to be equally likely to be known, you could try 1d100/2 five times for your five spells.

Actually it says that each d10 determine the Pages spell in a specific range of numbers (1-10, 11-20, 21-30, 31-40 and 41-50 respectively) :smallsmile:

EDIT:How would 27.5 be likely at all anyway? You can't roll it :smalltongue:

IcemanJRC
2010-06-22, 02:59 PM
It's the statistical probability, you'd roll a 27 or 28 most likely.

Owrtho
2010-06-22, 03:01 PM
EDIT:How would 27.5 be likely at all anyway? You can't roll it :smalltongue:

When determining the average of die rolls for dice, the average is the (number of sides divided by 2) + .5 due to it starting at 1 and not 0. When determining the average for multiple die rolls you sum all the averages of the die rolls making it up.

Owrtho

Jokasti
2010-06-22, 03:13 PM
This part is really confusing to me. It looks like you want people's spells known to be randomly selected from their list. I don't like that, but whatever. The confusing part is that 5d10 does not give you a range of 1-50. It gives 5-50, with 27.5 being the most likely result and more extreme results being less common. If you wanted every spell to be equally likely to be known, you could try 1d100/2 five times for your five spells.

I can see how you might be confused. I'll word it better in a sec, but here's what I mean:
Look Here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8760791&postcount=2)
My first roll was a 9. Therefore, my first spell is #9.
My second roll was a 8. Therefore, my second spell is #18.
My third roll was a 7. Therefore, my third spell is #27.
My fourth roll was a 2. Therefore, my fourth spell is #32.
My fifth roll was a 3. Therefore, my fifth spell is #43.
I'm thinking about making it 10d10, and you choose 5 spells from that list.

HypoSoc
2010-06-22, 04:17 PM
I think if you do 10d10, then it should be still divided among groups of 10. If you roll the same spell twice, either you get a free variation, or you are just out of luck. For example:
10d10
Messed up

HypoSoc
2010-06-22, 04:18 PM
1d10
1d10
1d10
1d10
1d10
1d10
1d10
1d10
1d10
1d10
Die roller must be down
I got 1,2,7,9,10,4,5,6,4,2 on another site, so that would be:
1: Spell 1
2: Spell 2
7: Spell 17
9: Spell 19
10: Spell 30
4: Spell 24
5: Spell 35
6: Spell 36
4: Spell 44
2: Spell 42

Jokasti
2010-06-22, 04:19 PM
That's what I meant.
2d10 for 1-10
2d10 for 11-20
etc.
Rolls don't work here/

Mina Kobold
2010-06-22, 04:33 PM
When determining the average of die rolls for dice, the average is the (number of sides divided by 2) + .5 due to it starting at 1 and not 0. When determining the average for multiple die rolls you sum all the averages of the die rolls making it up.

Owrtho

I know how to do statistics, but you didn't say that the average would be 27.5. You said that it was most likely for the result to be so.

Given that it's an impossible number to hit, the exact sentence used thus makes no sense.

Or in other words, I'm an insufferable grammar nitpicker :smalltongue:

Jokasti
2010-06-23, 02:28 AM
{table=head]Codex|Favored Attributes|Favored Abilities|Canon?
All-Seeing Codex| Intelligence and Wits|Magic, Lore, Awareness|Yes
Atlantis Codex| Stamina and Dexterity|n/a|Yes
Candle Codex| Strength and Intelligence|Range, Dodge, Athletics|Yes
Codex of Salem| Intelligence and Wits|Magic, Lore, Socialize|Yes
Codex of Solomon| n/a|n/a|Yes
Codex of Temptation| Charisma and Dexterity|Dodge, Socialize, Sneak|Yes
Freezing Codex| Stamina and Intelligence|Range, Dodge, Lore|Yes
Gelatinous Codex| Dexterity and Stamina|Dodge, Athletics, Sneak|Yes
Holy Codex| Intelligence and Charisma|Magic, Lore, Socialize|Yes
Lunar Codex| Dexterity and Wits|Melee, Dodge, Athletics|Yes
Ma'at's Codex| Strength and Stamina|Melee, Dodge, Investigate|Yes
Nine-Tailed Codex| Wits and Charisma|n/a|Yes
Sanguine Codex| n/a|n/a|Yes
Shambling Codex| Strength and Stamina|Melee, Dodge, Magic|Yes
Trickster's Codex| Intelligence and Wits|Range, Sneak, Awareness|Yes
Codex of Phobos|Stamina and Charisma|Investigate, Sneak, Awareness|No
Weird Codex|Dexterity and Intelligence|Magic, Dodge, Sneak|No
Wild Codex|Dexterity and Charisma|Dodge, Sneak, Awareness|No
Codex of Dragons|Intelligence and Charisma|Melee, Lore, Socialize|No
Codex of Zephyr|Dexterity and Wits|Range, Dodge, Awareness|No
Codex of Specter|Dexterity and Intelligence|Lore, Sneak, Awareness|No
Codex of Aesclepius|n/a|n/a|No
Codex of Ambrosia and Nectar|n/a|n/a|No
[/table]
If you think any of these should be changed, just tell me.

Sanguine
2010-06-23, 04:06 PM
-table-
If you think any of these should be changed, just tell me.

I think the All-Seeing Codex should have Investigate as a Codex Ability. After all they are the Chapter with the best Information gathering ability.

Prime32
2010-06-23, 04:15 PM
I've said it before, but I don't think a system like this really works for Bibliography.

Assumedly, everyone will want to make up their own powers, and possibly Codices. As Elagune said himself, such variety is pretty much the point. What you have so far looks like it will restrict PCs to pre-existing options.

To work properly this really needs a point-based system, where players can construct their own abilities within the rules. Mutants & Masterminds is closest in tone but, say, GURPS would work too. Or maybe something like Wushu, where your abilities are vague and you can describe "attack" in whatever way you want.

Jokasti
2010-06-23, 08:45 PM
I don't know that system, so this is the next best thing, I guess. I've never done a point-buy game.

Krazddndfreek
2010-06-25, 02:24 PM
M&M is not really that hard to pick up. The rules are fairly simple and give a lot of freedom with character creation. Like Prime said, it'd be perfect for this. But if you don't feel like learning it, that's cool too. I'd like to see how this project turns out. Although, I can tell you I don't really like how the spell learning works.

John Cribati
2010-06-25, 04:50 PM
I think Big Eyes Small Mouth (http://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0Bw64rRavtGMlNTQ0NTAwNjctNDZmZS00NTQyL WEzOTQtMjE4NmRhNDM5MmRl&hl=en&authkey=CLGjqt8B) Can cover a few things. Re-working the Dynamic Sorcerer could work for a few of the Codices.

Prime32
2010-06-25, 07:44 PM
I think Big Eyes Small Mouth (http://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0Bw64rRavtGMlNTQ0NTAwNjctNDZmZS00NTQyL WEzOTQtMjE4NmRhNDM5MmRl&hl=en&authkey=CLGjqt8B) Can cover a few things. Re-working the Dynamic Sorcerer could work for a few of the Codices.There is nothing BESM can do that M&M can't do better. Especially since you seem to be talking about the version which combined its Tri-stat System with D&D into a unbalanced mess.

I have had about half a dozen threads for statting characters from various media in D&D. I've never had such a thread for M&M because it's too easy.

M&M is derived from the d20 System (albeit heavily modified), so it should be even easier to learn if you know D&D.

Cyborg Mage
2010-07-05, 02:33 PM
Well, i'll try to A. Come up with new Codices, B. Improve existing Codices and C. Come up with spell lists. For now, let's look at the Codex of Aesclepius. Aesclepius was the Greek God of medicine, healing and the like, so this is likely going to be more or less a healing oriented codex. Prime skills would probably include Intelligence (Diagnosis, Prognosis and Perscription, or finding out what's wrong, what will happen and what to do) and Charisma (Stopping people from freaking out from injuries, soothing, lowering heart rate) while Spells would almost certainly revolve around healing. Unless, like in D&D, spells can go in reverse, in which case we're looking at instant organ failure. :smalleek:

Will work more on this tomorrow, would also be nice if someone did a PbP on this.

Jokasti
2010-07-11, 04:39 PM
Borrowed M&M from a pal, hope I can see things your way Prime. I'll get back to you.

Skycroft
2010-07-24, 03:44 PM
If we're using M&M, I have some thoughts. This is just a suggestion:


Bibliography Variant Rules


You can be a Page or Librarian. The rules for character generation are different for each.

Page:
Normal Character Generation. PL10, 150PP. No Devices!

I can't think off anything further in this section right now, but you should take at least one drawback. We can maybe come up with "templates", set drawbacks and powers, but we shouldn't limit the options too much.

Librarian:
First construct your Librarian character as a 90PP character with PL6 limits.

Then construct your Whitebox Weapon as a Device 15 Power. You can split this up into multiple Devices, if you wish. This can increase a trait from PL6 to PL10 limits, but the character without the Whitebox Weapon must remain a PL6 character.

Librarians come off slightly stronger than Pages in terms of Powers, but also weaker because they must be power level 6 without the WWs. In particular, Pages have the capability for higher skills than Librarians do.

An alternative may be to do PL8/Device 7(Power Feat: Restricted 2, usable only by you), but the Whitebox Weapons feel too weak to me. Thoughts?

Side Notes:
I do think M&M is the way to go. Just to illustrate how ridiculously versatile this system is, I once calculated (for fun) how many skilled (+10 to arcane lore) Mages it would take to transport the Earth into another dimension*. You can do that, in this game (the calculation, I mean, not the shift Earth thing. Though you can do that too.).


*27ish minimum, 34 if you want to be absolutely sure, and the whole spell would take about 300 hours to research, or about a month at 10 hours per day, with the ritual itself taking about 12 hours and 30 minutes.