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Lycanthromancer
2010-06-09, 05:58 PM
I am making a crusader for an game I'm in, along with a warforged wild reaper druid (and his living construct baby t-rex animal companion), a warforged artificer (using some of the alternate racial class features from Races of Eberron), and an assassin-type swordsage (also a warforged, using Desert Wind and supplementary stuff from Sandstorm), and I was wondering if the following is as good of a build as I think it is...

Dragonborn warforged bardic knack bard 1/whirling frenzy lion totem barbarian 1/crusader 3, focusing on white raven and Dragonfire Inspiration.

He's going to be the party's face, and also its commander during a fight.

I have three sets of ability scores to choose from (the other two are to be used for the artificer and swordsage), all of which were rolled:

18 | 17 | 17
17 | 15 | 16
15 | 14 | 15
15 | 14 | 14
15 | 14 | 14
11 | 13 | 12

...and I can add a +3, +2, and +1 to three ability scores for each character (and only Con can exceed 18 in this way, not including racial modifiers). I'm strongly considering using the first for the crusader, with the other two going to the swordsage and artificer.

The feats for levels 1 and 3 will likely be Song of the White Raven and Dragonfire Inspiration, and I'll try to boost Inspire Courage through magic items.

Does this seem like a decent combination?

Keld Denar
2010-06-09, 06:09 PM
Not possible. Dragonborn doesn't give you the Dragonblooded Subtype (wtf...really? seriously? yarly!). Thus, you either need to take Dragontouched (show me on the doll where the dragon touched you), a level of DFA, or a level of Sorcerer with the Dragonblooded ACF. There is no Dragonblooded 'Forged (like Silverbrow Human or Glimmerskin Halfling).

Also, 1 level of Bard is gonna leave you with only 1 song. You'd need Extra Music just to be viable in more than a single combat, another feat you can't afford. Also, you don't get any 1st level spells at Bard1, so you miss out on Inspirational Boost, one of the best low level ways to boost IC.

Song of the White Raven doesn't matter till ECL8, or ECL 9 if you dip Barbarian, due to the fact that IC doesn't get bumped from +1 to +2 until 8th level. You could take it at ECL 9, and never miss it. You shouldn't be starting Insp Boosts as a swift action, you need that swift action to cast Insp Boost (see above).

All in all, you are not synergizing well. You need at least 3 levels of Bard to make it at all worth it (this also gives you Inspire Competance, which sucks, but is the prereq for Songs of the Heart).

I'd go Bard3/Barb1/CrusaderX, but you need to do something about the Dragonblooded subtype, or just forgo DFI...

Lycanthromancer
2010-06-09, 06:34 PM
While I'm not arguing the rest of it, RotD specifically states that dragonborn have the [Dragonblood] subtype.

Keld Denar
2010-06-09, 06:37 PM
I'll double check it when I get home, but could you cite the passage in the meantime? I could have sworn trying to do something similar a couple weeks back and running into that same problem.

Khellendross
2010-06-09, 06:38 PM
Sorry Keld Denar but Dragonborn Warforged do have dragonblood as a subtype. Says so under both Dragonborn in the Races of the Dragon and under the sage advice at wizards.

"Despite the misleading entry in the dragonborn racial traits that suggests that all dragonborn are humanoids, the only prerequisites for being reborn in this manner are a non-evil alignment and an Intelligence of 3 or better. Thus, there’s nothing stopping a warforged from undergoing this ritual and dedicating himself to the service of Bahamut.

A warforged who becomes a dragonborn would be a construct with the living construct and dragonblood subtypes. He’d retain his warforged ability score modifiers and favored class.

He’d also retain all traits derived from the living construct subtype, including immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, disease, nausea, fatigue, exhaustion, and energy drain; inability to heal damage naturally; vulnerability to certain metal- or wood-affecting spells; and half effect from healing spells. He’d still become inert at –1 to –9 hp, and he still wouldn’t need to eat, sleep, or breathe.

However, he would lose his composite plating, light fortification, and slam attack.

The next logical question, of course, is whether the dragonborn warforged can select feats that would improve his now-absent composite plating. Technically, these feats don’t list composite plating as a prerequisite, so it appears the answer would be yes.

The Unarmored Body feat (Races of Eberron pg. 120) supports this ruling, as it indicates that other feats that adjust the character’s armor bonus could be selected later, even though he technically doesn’t have the composite plating’s armor bonus any more."

Lycanthromancer
2010-06-09, 06:44 PM
I'll double check it when I get home, but could you cite the passage in the meantime? I could have sworn trying to do something similar a couple weeks back and running into that same problem.Dragonborn Racial Traits
-Humanoid (Dragonblood): Dragonborn are humanoids with the dragonblood subtype and any other subtypes they had before undergoing the Rite of Rebirth. For all effects related to race, a dragonborn is considered a dragon and a member of her original race.

Due to having [living construct] as a subtype, he needs to remain a construct. So...

Also, Khellendross is the DM. Whee!

Keld Denar
2010-06-09, 07:15 PM
Ok, my bad. I stand corrected. Maybe I was getting that confused with having enough draconic heritage to qualify for an alternative energy type, because that is the Draconic Heritage feat or Half Dragon template only.

Regardless, the rest of my advise still stands. You NEED at least 3 levels of Bard to do this right, and a 4th wouldn't hurt.

Also, with very few exceptions, most Crusader manevuers are strikes. You don't need whirling frenzy and pounce if you are going to be doing a lot of strikes. Crusader's just don't have the boost potential that you get from Tiger Claw, Diamond Mind, or Desert Wind. You aren't gonna get to do your Divine Surges, your Revitalizing Strikes, or your X Mountain Hammers if you spend all your time pouncing charging. If you were a Bardblade, I'd say dip it, but you aren't. I dunno, it just doesn't seem very streamlined. I'd say a Bardsader would be best optimized with a big 2hander, preferably a reach one like a glaive, and tacking PA, fueled by STANDARD Inspire Courage, onto your strikes.

But thats just me.

Lycanthromancer
2010-06-09, 08:05 PM
I guess I'll go Bard 2/Crusader 1/Bard 1/Crusader 1 (to prevent XP penalties) for now, and pick up Song of the Heart, Words of Creation, and the inspirational boost spell. I'll keep leveling up between bard and crusader until I can qualify for sublime chord, then alternate between crusader and a bardic casting PrC that enhances inspire courage, for the time being.

Seems like it could work.

Any idea on how to make using Inspire Courage a move action, so I can use standard action (charging) strikes, swift/immediate action spells, and move action Inspire Courages?

[edit] Damn. Can't qualify for Song of the Heart at 3rd level without Inspire Courage, meaning I have to take an XP penalty if I want to pick up crusader. Any ideas? DM is waiving XP penalties for multiclassing, so I'm going with bard 3/crusader 2.

Yay!

Keld Denar
2010-06-09, 11:29 PM
Ah, very good. No offense to your origional idea, it just doesn't synergize well.

As far as going with Bard and Crusader until you hit Sublime Chord...you're gonna be at it a while. Sublime Chord requires 3rd level spells, and that means you are either gonna have to blow a bunch of feats on Heighten Spell + Versatile Spellcaster to get in by level 10, or you'll have to have at least 7 bard levels to get into Sublime Chord.

Also, Sublime Chord is really rough on your skills. If you put your 3 levels in bard right away, you are going to have a hard time meeting the skill prereqs. Even if you put the 7 that you'd have to, you'll have a tough time.

Just stick with the basic Bard4/Crusader16. Its pretty awesome in its own right. Get maximal IC, and PA while you do strikes. Its simple, yet effective.

Lycanthromancer
2010-06-10, 12:50 AM
Well, I was also considering taking bard, crusader, and warblade, for the extra maneuvers. The bard levels give up fascinate for healing hymn (spend a bardic music for a bonus on healing spells equal to my ranks in Perform), and I'm also trading out inspire competence for the Song of the Heart feat (as per the Eberron Campaign Setting bardic ACF), which gets me an extra feat to spend (probably on Extra Music).

Now I need to get rid of the nigh-useless countersong ability.

Anyway, so far, I have Words of Creation, Song of the Heart, the inspirational boost spell, and a badge of valor, and I'm bard 3/crusader 1/warblade 1.

My crusader maneuvers are Crusader's strike, Foehammer, Vanguard Strike, Mountain Hammer, and Stone Bones, with Martial Spirit as my stance.

My warblade maneuvers are Steel Wind, Wall of Blades, and Battle Leader, with Leading the Charge as my stance.

Anything in particular I'm missing, or should do better? I'm thinking maybe Dragonfire Inspiration might actually be a bit too powerful, all things considered.

Endarire
2010-06-10, 01:52 AM
Whirling Frenzy Barbarian grants you an extra attack when you attack in the round, no charging required.

Also, Jade Phoenix Mage works for this combo, granting you Devoted Spirit maneuvers and arcane spells.

Finally, if your group is as uber as you, there's no imbalance. If your DM encourages it, go Dragonfire Inspiration/Words of Creation.

PId6
2010-06-10, 01:56 AM
Get masterwork mandolin (CAdv) for +1 attack/-1 damage on IC, doubling to +2 attack/-2 damage, which becomes +0 attack/+2 damage after Power Attack. It's much better with DFI though (no drawbacks at all there).

Mimicking Song (DS) is the best one I can find to replace Countersong. It's mildly more useful.

Keld Denar
2010-06-10, 03:25 AM
Depending on where you apply the multiplier, I think Words of Creation is MUCH stronger than Dragonfire Inspiration. If you multiply at the end, Words of Creation doubles the effects of Song of the Heart, Insp Boost, Badge of Valor, and all those other things. If it applies to the base, it only gives +1 level for 7/20s of the Bards life.

Thats the difference between the oft cited +12d6 and greater numbers and a more reasonable 3-4d6 at low levels and 7-8d6 at the highest levels.

That, and the RP implications are the main reasons I don't like Words of Creation, but thats more of a personal opinion.

EDIT: Spellbreaker Song from Complete Mage is ok. Since it replaces Countersong, it should still require Concentration (standard action), unlike Inspire Courage, which doesn't. What it does give, though, is effectively 20% miss chance for all of your allies from spells if the caster is within 30' of you. Kinda risky, and you'd have to stop your precious IC (which persists for 5 rounds afterwards) to start it.

Honestly, you'd probably just strike that ability off and forget that it even exists.

Lycanthromancer
2010-06-10, 10:58 AM
EDIT: Spellbreaker Song from Complete Mage is ok. Since it replaces Countersong, it should still require Concentration (standard action), unlike Inspire Courage, which doesn't. What it does give, though, is effectively 20% miss chance for all of your allies from spells if the caster is within 30' of you. Kinda risky, and you'd have to stop your precious IC (which persists for 5 rounds afterwards) to start it.

Honestly, you'd probably just strike that ability off and forget that it even exists.I think I'll take Spellbreaker Song. It requires a standard action to start, but is a free action to maintain, just like Inspire Courage (doesn't say it requires an action to maintain).

I'll see if I can't get an item or two to extend my bardic songs.

Anyway, Countersong sucks, so I'll get something that's useful in more than just excessively situational situations.

DragoonWraith
2010-06-10, 11:28 AM
If you want simultaneous songs operating at once, Lingering Song is a good feat. You can do a lot in 10 rounds.

Lycanthromancer
2010-06-10, 11:46 AM
If you want simultaneous songs operating at once, Lingering Song is a good feat. You can do a lot in 10 rounds.I only have 3 uses per day. I think I'll take Extra Song, for now.

Person_Man
2010-06-10, 12:21 PM
Dragonborn warforged bardic knack bard 1/whirling frenzy lion totem barbarian 1/crusader 3, focusing on white raven and Dragonfire Inspiration.

While Dragonborn Warforged has it's merits, I think the Bard 1/Barbarian 1/Crusader 3 thing is too much multiclassing to work well. It nerfs your maneuver/stance and Steely resolve and your BAB. I would go with Bard 1/Crusader 4/PrC X or just strait Crusader instead.

jiriku
2010-06-10, 12:37 PM
Bard/crusader/(ashworm dragoon or Aglarondan griffin rider) makes a dashing war-captain, and is especially deadly with a valorous lance. Although the need for extra feats will distract you someone from optimizing IC.

Lycanthromancer
2010-06-10, 11:22 PM
Well, I was also considering taking bard, crusader, and warblade, for the extra maneuvers. The bard levels give up fascinate for healing hymn (spend a bardic music for a bonus on healing spells equal to my ranks in Perform), and I'm also trading out inspire competence for the Song of the Heart feat (as per the Eberron Campaign Setting bardic ACF), which gets me an extra feat to spend (probably on Extra Music).

Now I need to get rid of the nigh-useless countersong ability.

Anyway, so far, I have Words of Creation, Song of the Heart, the inspirational boost spell, and a badge of valor, and I'm bard 3/crusader 1/warblade 1.

My crusader maneuvers are Crusader's strike, Foehammer, Vanguard Strike, Mountain Hammer, and Stone Bones, with Martial Spirit as my stance.

My warblade maneuvers are Steel Wind, Wall of Blades, and Battle Leader, with Leading the Charge as my stance.

Anything in particular I'm missing, or should do better? I'm thinking maybe Dragonfire Inspiration might actually be a bit too powerful, all things considered.I'm also taking Extra Music for the all-too-needed bardic muzak, so that takes care of my 3rd level feat.

I'm gonna grab a badge of valor, Heward's handy haversack, and lesser crystal of return, and I know about the crystal echoblade (which I'm not taking, 'cuz my bard level is going to be fairly low). I want the amulet of retributive healing, but that's going to basically be unusable due to the warbardsaderblade's healing being mostly in-combat, and the badge of valor's taking up the throat slot.

After racial adjustments (and the +1 due to level), his stats are: Str 18, Dex 8, Con 22, Int 18, Wis 13, Cha 16, and he's a dragonborn warforged (so he loses his slam and his warforged plating, but nothing else).

I've basically got Core, PHB II, DMG II, the Completes, MIC, and the SC. What magic items can I buy with 4600 gp that would be especially useful for a warbardsaderblade? Not too familiar with bardic items, and I don't want to use an instrument if I can avoid it, since I'm going for battlefield commander/face, and strumming a lute or playing a harmonica would just look dumb.

Draz74
2010-06-10, 11:27 PM
I want the amulet of retributive healing, but that's going to basically be unusable due to the warbardsaderblade's healing being mostly in-combat, and the badge of valor's taking up the throat slot.

Activating an Amulet of Retributive Healing is a swift action. I fail to see why it's not worthy of in-combat use.

And assuming you can find a friendly item crafter, combining the two Throat items should bring it to a total price of ... merely 4100 gp.

Lycanthromancer
2010-06-10, 11:34 PM
Activating an Amulet of Retributive Healing is a swift action. I fail to see why it's not worthy of in-combat use.

And assuming you can find a friendly item crafter, combining the two Throat items should bring it to a total price of ... merely 4100 gp.DM explicitly stated that no combined items are allowed, unfortunately; otherwise I'd jump on this one like a dominated dragoon on a paladin. Yes, that was an obligatory FFIV reference.
[edit] Also, I just noticed that I don't really need Charisma so much; given the highest I can get is a 16, there's no difference between a 14 and a 16 until level 7 (which I probably won't reach for quite some time), by which time I can have the party artificer (run by me as well) craft me some nifty +Cha items.

So I'll juggle my scores around a bit and see what I come up with.