'Monk'eying around.

[Admiral Squish]

So. I've got the crazy idea of making myself a monk fix. But to problem is, while most other classes need just a little bit of help to make them actually fill the role they were intended, the monk HAS no intended role as far as I can tell. It's completely full of cross-purposes. So, playground, I'm here to ask if you can identify the intended purpose of the monk, or, failing that, you have something you'd like to see the monk do.

PLEASE nobody be clever and say 'just play unarmed SS'. That's not the point here.

So far, a couple basic changes.
Full BaB
Fist self-enhancement based off soulknife.
Increased AC bonus progression

Some of the possibilities:
Might include some kind of Ki-powered abilities, like the ninja.
Might trade Flurry for skirmish
Some sort of combat styles? (Two-fisted, Hammer blow, mobile striker...)

[AstralFire]

The monk's role is to be cross-purpose. Keep all of its class abilities - they're what make the monk so distinct - but make it better at all of them. Give it better feat support for customization. The appeal of core classes versus ToB should be that they are simpler to set-up - specializations undermine that.

[Admiral Squish]

I'm not walking working in two different directions. I'm talking literal cross-purposes. The abilities are fighting each other. To use one you lose the other, so you can only apply half your abilities to any task, while still paying for all of them.

[AstralFire]

Allow Flurry of Blows to add an extra attack to any attack action, including standard actions and charges. And give them pounce at the same time they have Greater Flurry.

Where's it fighting itself now?

Alternatively, keep the ability lock out but make them much stronger so that both are valid options providing a tactical choice.

[Kylarra]

I like battledancer from Dragon compendium personally, although it also tends to be in the lower tiers.

Some sort of Intuitive blow/Weapon finesse type ability that also replaces str to damage would help.

[Admiral Squish]

Allow Flurry of Blows to add an extra attack to any attack action, including standard actions and charges. And give them pounce at the same time they have Greater Flurry.

Where's it fighting itself now?

Alternatively, keep the ability lock out but make them much stronger so that both are valid options providing a tactical choice.

That's... Surprisingly simple and brilliant.

[Telonius]

My vision of what the Monk ought to be is a hard-to-kill status dealer and tactician. He can tumble through everything to be where he needs to be to give others the maximum bonus, thoroughly annoy foes, and hopefully make sure things stay stunned/prone/disarmed as much as possible.

To achieve that: Full BAB. Grant pounce as described in previous posters. Bonuses to special attacks based on Monk level (i.e. counts as Large for purposes of Bull rush at level x, counts as two-handed for purposes of Disarm at level y, etc). Able to enchant body as though it were a magic weapon/armor. Use Monk level instead of Caster level to determine how high of a bonus it can have.

[Brendan]

yeah, my group gives monks flurry on all attacks too. it works well. actually, my monk is the chief damage dealer in the party.

[Eldariel]

If you're interested, here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=85892)'s a small rewrite of the Monk basically keeping all as is, but just improving it numerically so as to match up better to other non-caster types (and yes, making all the higher level class features worthwhile; notably Perfect Self now grants Magic Immunity and DR 15/Chaos and Adamantine as a sort of epitome of the defensive and SR class features, and SR is available from level 1).

[Admiral Squish]

I think flurry on EVERY attack would cause problems. An extra attack +pouce should be plenty, especially when coupled with self-enhancing fists/skin.

Instead of having all those bonuses to special maneuvers, wouldn't it be simpler to just place a flat, scaling bonus to all maneuvers, or even allow specialization into a number of styles based around different maneuvers?

[Eldariel]

I think flurry on EVERY attack would cause problems. An extra attack +pouce should be plenty, especially when coupled with self-enhancing fists/skin.

Instead of having all those bonuses to special maneuvers, wouldn't it be simpler to just place a flat, scaling bonus to all maneuvers, or even allow specialization into a number of styles based around different maneuvers?

The intent is taking "Flurry on all attack actions" which basically means e.g. Spring Attack doesn't totally suck for Monks. You don't probably want to allow it on AoOs or any such. And I personally prefer SAD Dexing the class with full BAB for combat maneuvers, than giving a flat bonus; both work, of course, but flat random bonuses are just less elegant IMHO than tying it to basic mechanics and stats.

But as you will, of course. As I suggest, the Monk probably outdoes a Barbarian and a Fighter in the long run, but with splats (or ToB) they'll keep up just fine.

[Admiral Squish]

The intent is taking "Flurry on all attack actions" which basically means e.g. Spring Attack doesn't totally suck for Monks. You don't probably want to allow it on AoOs or any such.

I just think 'full attack as a standard action' is just going too far. I'm willing to allow for pounce, and I'm willing for spring attack to allow for an extra hit, but not five hits on every attack.

[Eldariel]

I just think 'full attack as a standard action' is just going too far. I'm willing to allow for pounce, and I'm willing for spring attack to allow for an extra hit, but not five hits on every attack.

It is not suggested you get full attack, it's suggested you get your Flurry and the one attack; so 3 with Greater Flurry, 2 before that. Otherwise, moving just penalizes the supposedly mobile combatant class far too much. So basically, if you move and attack, you get Flurry + One, if you Charge or Full Attack, you get all.

And frankly, Full Attack As Standard Action is something all martial types should get (spells have full effects but take standard actions to cast...), but that's neither here nor now. That's more of a general issue than something specifically about Monk (though it hurts Monk the worst).

[Reynard]

I just think 'full attack as a standard action' is just going too far. I'm willing to allow for pounce, and I'm willing for spring attack to allow for an extra hit, but not five hits on every attack.

That's at level 20, no?

Hardly broken at that level, considering the weapon Monks have to use.

[The Glyphstone]

I'd like to see the Monk as a highly mobile status-effect dealer. Improve the versatility of Flurry, but take what Quivering Palm/Stunning Fist could be and expand it over the entire class. Give them the ability to attach stuns, nausea, confusion, sickening, etc. to their melee attacks. Let them slow or hamstring opponents.

[Admiral Squish]

AHHH. See, flurry to me implies full attack + 1-2 extra hits. So when you were saying flurry on all attacks, I was confused.

[aivanther]

A campaign I played had a homebrew monk fix:

Full BaB
Pounce lite for flurry
ditched Wisdom AC bonus, increased base AC bonus (+1 at first level, +1 every 3 levels? Don't remember)
At same level of Greater Flurry you gain something like the Dervish Dance from CW PrC Dervish: You can flurry of blows while taking a move action. I.E. pound this dude, 10 feet, kick this dude, 5 feet, kick that dude, etc.


Also, I think the DM had a class feature where you could use any weapon and improvised weapons with -3, that progressed to -2, then -1. I think he liked Jachie Chan movies...

[Kaiyanwang]

Also, I think the DM had a class feature where you could use any weapon and improvised weapons with -3, that progressed to -2, then -1. I think he liked Jachie Chan movies...

This one is really nice.

[Admiral Squish]

I could just include the improvised weapons rules out of drunken master...

Maybe something that would let them take 10 on balance, climb, jump, tumble, etc...

[Kaiyanwang]

I'd like to see the Monk as a highly mobile status-effect dealer. Improve the versatility of Flurry, but take what Quivering Palm/Stunning Fist could be and expand it over the entire class. Give them the ability to attach stuns, nausea, confusion, sickening, etc. to their melee attacks. Let them slow or hamstring opponents.

Just to add: didn't played one yet so I can't tell how much has changed, but I guess that behind the Pathfinder monk there were something similar, at least as an intent: it has the ability to choose several status effects in place of stunning when raises in levels.

About this topic, Adrmiral Squish, take a look in the SRD (and I definitively second the improvised weapon thing from drunken master.. I love the concept).

See how Eldariel antedated something there, like the moar bonus feats.

[Pluto]

I'd like to see the Monk as a highly mobile status-effect dealer. Improve the versatility of Flurry, but take what Quivering Palm/Stunning Fist could be and expand it over the entire class. Give them the ability to attach stuns, nausea, confusion, sickening, etc. to their melee attacks. Let them slow or hamstring opponents.
I've always wanted the Monk to do this, but every time I sit down to scratch out some rules for it, I remember that there's a Cleric class, so then I get up and go do something else. It's kind of disheartening, in a way.

[The Glyphstone]

I've always wanted the Monk to do this, but every time I sit down to scratch out some rules for it, I remember that there's a Cleric class, so then I get up and go do something else. It's kind of disheartening, in a way.

Well yeah, Tier 1 classes can be very disheartening when you use them as the comparison baseline.:smallconfused:

[Admiral Squish]

So far, I think the monk has too many things. Everyone wants a different thing improved, but all of them together would add up too high. So, I think we're looking at a multiple-paths class.

One based on speed and multiple attacks.
One based on powerful blows
One based on crippling and 'internal damage' (stunning, etc)
One based on movement (acrobatics and such)
One based on defenses
And likely one based on using a number of bizzare weapons (improvised or otherwise)

[Eldariel]

So far, I think the monk has too many things. Everyone wants a different thing improved, but all of them together would add up too high. So, I think we're looking at a multiple-paths class.

One based on speed and multiple attacks.
One based on powerful blows
One based on crippling and 'internal damage' (stunning, etc)
One based on movement (acrobatics and such)
One based on defenses
And likely one based on using a number of bizzare weapons (improvised or otherwise)

The variety of styles can be done with feats. But honestly, I think my rework is perfectly alright at Tier 3-4 and you can check the Penny Dreadfuls' Monk for something more special. Like, a Monk can do all that and be good at it without breaking anything. Any spellcaster takes that list, adds half a hundred different abilities more and does all that well without even really trying. "Guess I should prepare Polymorph this morning!"

[AstralFire]

The monk only feels like it does too much because it's being compared to the core melee characters, minus the Paladin and Ranger's new spells in SpC.

[Admiral Squish]

I admit, it's hardly balanced Vs. full casters. But then, nothing melee is. I'm just trying to narrow the gap in a way that would still be approved by a prospective DM.