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Gamerlord
2010-06-10, 07:20 AM
What is the worst gestalt ever?

Personally, I think a monk/samurai would be such a thing. Two bad classes that really conflict with each other.

Amphetryon
2010-06-10, 07:30 AM
Paladin/Truenamer is pretty awful, and MADder than a hatter.

DruchiiConversion
2010-06-10, 07:31 AM
Monks are actually non-awful in Gestalt, with plenty of 'defensive' or at least survival-minded abilities on offer. Certainly against anything not immune to mind-affecting, a properly built Samurai can do some serious intimidation, which isn't -so- bad. Plus, full saves, full BAB - plenty of MAD, but what can you do?

I'd still pick it in a fight with a random CR-appropriate encounter over a Truenamer//Samurai, which might be unfair - Truenamer is, after all, not on the tier list for a reason. Or, for that matter, a straight Paladin//Samurai, which would have comparable saves, slightly more damage a few times per day, and... minor healing abilities, compared to tactical advantages in movement speed and teleportation to get out of game-enders for these classes like solid fog.

Then there's other options like Monk//Commoner/Survivor, but I don't think optimising suckiness in gestalt is quite what you're looking for... and there aren't all that many classes which are as exclusively 'defensive' as the Monk to stick on the other side of its gestalt.

I guess hideous LA/RHD//LA/Monk is also pretty awful, depending on the race.

Thurbane
2010-06-10, 07:31 AM
Monk//Warmage - no dump stats at all (Barring Kung Fu Genius or Carmedine Monk)

On the plus side, he really gets mileage out of a Belt of Magnificence. :smalltongue:

BobVosh
2010-06-10, 07:32 AM
PrC allowed? If so...

Barbarian 10/Rage Mage 10//Warmage 10/Green Star Adept 10

Stacked so you get the +CL on the same level

No PrC: I want to say Monk//Truenamer
Need every stat, and neither work as themselves. Both are "active" sides, and have no synergy.
Also if NPC class are available: Commoner//Noble (somehow)

*edit* Also I feel the urge to give my favorite terrible build for regular 3.5: Duskblade/Paladin/Mystic Theurge.

Mongoose87
2010-06-10, 07:41 AM
Turenamer//Soulknife. /Thread.

Draken
2010-06-10, 07:46 AM
Well, the absolute worst is the Commoner//Warrior.

Effectivelly, you are just a warrior.

With actual PC classes included, that would be the Truenamer//Soulborn, this does a great job of making you AAD (All Abilities Dependant)... Except wisdom I guess.

Making the truenamer side work requires serious focus, causing the soulborn side to be little more than Full BAB and d10 HD, since the Soulborn Soulmeld list is also quite weak it doesn't help out much either.

Greenish
2010-06-10, 07:46 AM
Need every stat, and neither work as themselves. Both are "active" sides, and have no synergy.Monk is hardly an active class even when single classed, and it won't be in gestalt.

Besides, you can use monk for a funny Clericzilla with Monk//Cloistered Cleric. Of course, using a swordsage or an incarnate instead of monk would probably be better.

Gnaeus
2010-06-10, 07:47 AM
No PrC: I want to say Monk//Truenamer
Need every stat, and neither work as themselves. Both are "active" sides, and have no synergy.

Monk is not an "active" side in almost any gestalt build. It gives all good saves, Evasion, self healing, some free feats that can be chosen for defensive use, and a number of situational immunities, even if combined with a class that wears armor.

Alternately, truenamer could be used to give the monk self buffs and UMD, both of which he needs.

Swordsaged!

Grumman
2010-06-10, 07:56 AM
Scout // Samurai / Dwarven Defender?

Greenish
2010-06-10, 08:05 AM
Scout // Samurai / Dwarven Defender?DD capstone allows 5' steps, and there are ways to turn those to 10' steps. Still, nifty way to make the two sides fight each other.

Eldan
2010-06-10, 08:07 AM
Monk/Dwarven Defender//Bard/Green Star Adept

J.Gellert
2010-06-10, 08:12 AM
Commoner // Wizard
Intelligence: 8

"Mah mamma sez ah'v gat pottensial!"

Gnaeus
2010-06-10, 08:18 AM
Commoner // Wizard
Intelligence: 8

"Mah mamma sez ah'v gat pottensial!"

Commoner gets Handle Animal. Sell your spellbook to buy Riding Dogs. Profit!

Lifeson
2010-06-10, 08:33 AM
Commoner/Aristocrat.

Oh sorry, no NPC classes? :smallamused:

Grumman
2010-06-10, 08:50 AM
Oh sorry, no NPC classes? :smallamused:
Any idiot can take two things that suck and get a gestalt that sucks. The topic is only interesting if you're looking for Gestalts that are worse than the sum of their parts.

Brendan
2010-06-10, 09:25 AM
rogue//bard/war hulk?
you cannot use any of your useful skills due to no time to think and are terrible at hiding due to the size restriction. In addition, all of the bard's class features? based off of ranks in perform, which goes poof when you enter war hulk.
for extra weakness, be a troll so you cannot cast spells.

Cyclocone
2010-06-10, 09:31 AM
Half-Elf Knight//Ninja. Hey, at least you get to angst about it!

A Buoman Marshall//Truenamer would be pretty screwed I guess.:smallconfused:

Artificer//Bard/Hathran. Still not helpless though.

Some kind of War Hulk/Hulking Hurler//Psion/Uncarnate. Well, you can still go corporeal 1/day and destroy the world.

Bayar
2010-06-10, 09:36 AM
Monk is hardly an active class even when single classed, and it won't be in gestalt.

Besides, you can use monk for a funny ClericoDzilla with Monk//Cloistered ClericDruid. Of course, using a swordsage or an incarnate instead of monk would probably be better.

Fixed that for you.

Person_Man
2010-06-10, 09:36 AM
Cleric 19/Ur-Priest 1/Commoner 20

IIRC, the last level of Ur-Priest demolishes all of your Cleric casting. So you're essentially a 20th level Commoner.

Amphetryon
2010-06-10, 09:38 AM
Artificer//Bard/Hathran. I'd play that. Artificer is awesome, Hathran is very good, Bard is average to awesome depending on Feats, with nice flavor.

Cyclocone
2010-06-10, 09:45 AM
I'd play that. Artificer is awesome, Hathran is very good, Bard is average to awesome depending on Feats, with nice flavor.

I'm not even sure it works.:smallsmile:
Hathran either loses all Item Creation feats or can't even be entered if you have any (I forgot which).

It's like a Fenzied Bezerker with a Vow of Non-Violence.

Theodoxus
2010-06-10, 09:49 AM
Monk//Barbarian
Paladin//Barbarian

Yeah, either of those... good luck! (and no acf cheese ;)

Gnaeus
2010-06-10, 09:58 AM
Monk//Barbarian
Paladin//Barbarian

Yeah, either of those... good luck! (and no acf cheese ;)

Those are bad leveling builds, not bad gestalts. Bad /= illegal to make. Lillend//succubus isn't bad, just not possible.

Cyclocone
2010-06-10, 10:03 AM
Lillend//succubus isn't bad, just not possible.

A Wizard Did It!

Flickerdart
2010-06-10, 10:09 AM
It's like a Fenzied Bezerker with a Vow of Non-Violence.
Challenge accepted. :smallbiggrin:

Greenish
2010-06-10, 10:41 AM
Fixed that for you.Nah, doesn't have that amusing double-monkishness of combined "pseudo-medieval european-ish" monk and "stereotype eastern martial artist" monk.

Anyway, druid is for swordsage.


On the topic of poor gestalts: paladin//soulborn. Sweet, delicious redundancy.

Milskidasith
2010-06-10, 10:49 AM
Paladin of Freedom//Paladin of Tyranny, TN.

EDIT: This is pretty much entirely illegal, though, so yeah. Still, it would be fairly terrible!

Telonius
2010-06-10, 11:21 AM
Paladin//Hexblade is pretty bad - the class requirements kind of cancel each other out. Paladin must be lawful good and loses all features but weapon proficiencies and attack if he's ever evil; Hexblade must be evil and loses everything but weapon proficiencies and bonus feats if he's ever good. Both get 2+int skills, so nothing gained there. Both have full BAB, so nothing gained there. The only thing it really gets are two good saves (fort and will).

AstralFire
2010-06-10, 11:25 AM
I think the alignment based ones are pushing it.

As far as 'good classes that do not mesh with each other at all', I vote for Bard//Swordsage. Cha/Int versus Str/Dex/Wis, same BAB, same saves, same skill points, can't cast and use the good martial maneuvers in the same round, and Arcane Strike is inefficient.

Knaight
2010-06-10, 11:53 AM
Swashbuckler/Dervish/Duelist//Fighter/DwarvenDefender

Amphetryon
2010-06-10, 12:06 PM
Swashbuckler/Dervish/Duelist//Fighter/DwarvenDefender

Ewww. "I can't move for half of my class features to work, and have to move to make the other half work. In heavy, I mean light, armor only."

Draz74
2010-06-10, 12:15 PM
Swashbuckler/Dervish/Duelist//Fighter/DwarvenDefender

For extra fun, swap out some Fighter levels for Samurai/Warblade multiclassing ... but make sure the only maneuvers you take are Stone Dragon, especially the stances that don't let you move more than 5 feet per turn.

Lycanthromancer
2010-06-10, 12:43 PM
Truenamer 20//ghost 5/totemist 5/war hulk 10, assuming you can swing the prerequisites. Don't take Undead Meldshaper, and make sure you have a Charisma of like 4.

erikun
2010-06-10, 01:51 PM
Would Monk 20//Beholder Mage 10/Tainted Sorcerer 10 be as bad as I think it is? At Monk 20, you become an outsider and thus stop being a Beholder, losing all your spellcasting and taking the full effects of your taint score. You could become an undead before that, but again, you stop becoming a Beholder and lose your spellcasting. (Plus, you're stop being an undead at Monk 20 anyways.) I'm not familiar enough with the Beholder Mage to know if it works like this or not.

NEO|Phyte
2010-06-10, 01:52 PM
A beholder is a creature, not a type. A beholder that's an outsider/undead is still a beholder.

erikun
2010-06-10, 01:57 PM
Aww. Perhaps Monk 20//Beholder Mage 10/Green Star Adept 10 will achieve the worthlessness I desire. (Although that's mainly due to GSA making the character worthless anyways.)

Stompy
2010-06-10, 02:06 PM
This may not win the contest, but I'm a fan of (Ex-)Samurai 20/Bard10-Skypledged10. Mainly because a raptoran can qualify for skypledged with arcane spells, but the class advances divine spells only. :smallbiggrin:

sofawall
2010-06-10, 02:07 PM
Aww. Perhaps Monk 20//Beholder Mage 10/Green Star Adept 10 will achieve the worthlessness I desire. (Although that's mainly due to GSA making the character worthless anyways.)

You're still a beholder. You still have 9th level casting. You're also an epic level creature.

AstralFire
2010-06-10, 02:07 PM
That's... pretty good, actually.

erikun
2010-06-10, 02:21 PM
Okay then, Paladin 18/Blackguard 1/Rogue 1//Druid 19/Blighter 1. You're missing at leats 18 levels of class abilities on both sides. No, I don't know how you managed to become a Paladin 18//Druid 18 without losing class features up to that point.

Grumman
2010-06-10, 02:40 PM
Okay then, Paladin 18/Blackguard 1/Rogue 1//Druid 19/Blighter 1. You're missing at leats 18 levels of class abilities on both sides. No, I don't know how you managed to become a Paladin 18//Druid 18 without losing class features up to that point.
I've got a better one: Warblade // Wizard, and then he stabs himself to death.

Please, there's nothing interesting about a bad gestalt that is bad only because the components that make it up are inherently bad.

Stompy
2010-06-10, 02:51 PM
I've got a better one: Warblade // Wizard, and then he stabs himself to death.

Please, there's nothing interesting about a bad gestalt that is bad only because the components that make it up are inherently bad.

Why would he stab himself, when he could easily kill every build on this thread, and take their delicious wealth by level stuff?

nedz
2010-06-10, 03:01 PM
Knight//Ninja
If you want to use your sudden strike then you pretty much have to break your Knight's code.

Not quite as bad as an Artificer with Vow of Poverty, though this isn't a gestalt.

Grumman
2010-06-10, 03:08 PM
Why would he stab himself, when he could easily kill every build on this thread, and take their delicious wealth by level stuff?
That was my point, expressed through hateful sarcasm: trying to create a bad gestalt is boring if you resort to such crude methods of sabotage. Anti-synergy is interesting. A gestalt build that only sucks because both sides of the build suck is not.

Seffbasilisk
2010-06-10, 03:27 PM
Hmm, not sure about the worst gesalt, but a Warlock with Elven Pride of Arms might factor in there somewhere...

Gametime
2010-06-10, 04:47 PM
OA Samurai 10/Legacy Champion 10//Monk 10/Apostle of Peace 10? Your choice between dishonoring your family and losing all relevant class features from one prestige class or breaking your vow and losing all relevant class features from another prestige class.

Cespenar
2010-06-10, 05:03 PM
Monk//Soulknife?

Lycanthromancer
2010-06-10, 05:16 PM
Truenamer 20//ghost 5/totemist 5/war hulk 10, assuming you can swing the prerequisites. Don't take Undead Meldshaper, and make sure you have a Charisma of like 4.I'm surprised nobody's commented on mine.
You lose all of your truenamer abilities due to war hulk. You lose all of your totemist abilities due to undead having Con -- and no Undead Meldshaper. You lose most of your war hulk stuff because of Str --. And you get screwed on being a ghost because of Charisma 4.

Thing is, except for truenamer, all of the rest of that is useful in all sorts of other builds.

Gametime
2010-06-10, 05:38 PM
I'm surprised nobody's commented on mine.
You lose all of your truenamer abilities due to war hulk. You lose all of your totemist abilities due to undead having Con -- and no Undead Meldshaper. You lose most of your war hulk stuff because of Str --. And you get screwed on being a ghost because of Charisma 4.

Thing is, except for truenamer, all of the rest of that is useful in all sorts of other builds.

Your post did say "assuming you can swing the prerequisites," but it seems sort of tricky. No strength score* means no Cleave means no War Hulk, so you'd have to become a War Hulk before becoming a ghost. You'd also have to (somehow) lose two charisma after becoming ghostly, since you can't add the template unless your charisma is 6 or higher.

The build itself, however it is accomplished, is indubitably lulzy.

*I assume the incorporeal subtype description takes precedence, but the MMI is pretty inconsistent with regards to the incorporeal strength score. The sample ghost not only has one, but references using it for attacks against ethereal creatures. Also, the template mentions losing the con score, but not strength. Other incorporeal creatures don't seem to have one, and the glossary entry indicates they don't.

It's almost a shame, since the idea of a really really strong ghost makes me giggle.

Draz74
2010-06-10, 06:12 PM
I'm surprised nobody's commented on mine.

I think my eyes glazed over after seeing "Truenamer 20," though, is the problem.

Greenish
2010-06-10, 07:27 PM
You lose all of your truenamer abilities due to war hulk.Oh, woe. :smallamused:

Pluto
2010-06-10, 08:38 PM
Conjurer 2/Master Conjurer 10/Malconvoker 8//Druid 5/Beast Heart Adept 10/Beastmaster 5

Stuff:
ACF: Rapid Summoning
Flaw: Animal Cohort
Flaw: Precocious Apprentice
1: Spell Focus: Conjuration
Wizard Bonus: Augment Summoning
3: Obtain Familiar
Retraining: Animal Affinity [lose PA]
6: Leadership
9: Dragon Cohort
12: Undead Leadership
15: Skill Focus: Handle Animal
18: Extra Familiar

Ban: Abjuration, Evocation

As far as competence, this build should be perfectly playable: full casting, strong summoning throughout, decent Saves/Skills/HP, an army of summons/cohorts/companions/familiars/bound demons/commanded undead/dominated mooks.

But in terms of playability, the sheer paperwork involved is the sort of thing that gives me nightmares.

AstralFire
2010-06-10, 08:39 PM
I'm surprised nobody's commented on mine.
You lose all of your truenamer abilities due to war hulk. You lose all of your totemist abilities due to undead having Con -- and no Undead Meldshaper. You lose most of your war hulk stuff because of Str --. And you get screwed on being a ghost because of Charisma 4.

Thing is, except for truenamer, all of the rest of that is useful in all sorts of other builds.

I'm impressed.

dspeyer
2010-06-10, 08:39 PM
Barbarian / Frenzied Berserker // Sorcerer

Once you get attacked, you become a meleer with no AC and a caster who can't use magic.

Lycanthromancer
2010-06-10, 09:06 PM
Here's a triple-threat: Cleric 19/ur-priest 1//artificer 19/forsaker 1//druid 19/blighter 1.

Yes, it's triple-gestalt (of 3 tier 1 classes, no less), but it's virtually useless.

drengnikrafe
2010-06-10, 09:10 PM
Not to be mean to your perfectly good triple-failure, but aren't there rules against taking more than one prestige class at a time with gestalt?

Jallorn
2010-06-10, 09:10 PM
I'm gonna go with Paladin-Warlock.

Lycanthromancer
2010-06-10, 09:17 PM
Not to be mean to your perfectly good triple-failure, but aren't there rules against taking more than one prestige class at a time with gestalt?True, but triple-gestalt is theoretical to begin with. I think we can let it slide this one time.

drengnikrafe
2010-06-10, 09:20 PM
True, but triple-gestalt is theoretical to begin with. I think we can let it slide this one time.

I guess if you're shooting yourself in the foot...
The alternative is something ugly looking like Cleric 19/Ur-Prist 1//Artificer 18/Forsaker 1/Commoner 1//Druid 17/Blighter 1/Expert 2.

Lycanthromancer
2010-06-10, 09:23 PM
I guess if you're shooting yourself in the foot...
The alternative is something ugly looking like Cleric 19/Ur-Prist 1//Artificer 18/Forsaker 1/Commoner 1//Druid 17/Blighter 1/Expert 2.But those expert levels are making those last two levels actually useful due to skill points. Make it warrior, instead.

DaedalusMkV
2010-06-10, 09:36 PM
Abjurer (ban Trans, Illus) 3/Master Specialist 7/Iot7V 7/ Archmage 2//Barbarian 6/ Fighter 4/ Frenzied Berzerker 10

Both sides of the gestalt are extremely powerful in their own rights, though the Abjurer banned some wonky schools he's still a brutally powerful character while the FB can OHK anything on the charge. The build's only possible because of the fighter levels, or they'd be replaced with a couple more Barb levels.

As a whole, though? The FB makes sure the mage can't cast, and the feats eaten up to qualify for all the PrCs means he has nothing left for Shock Trooper or the rest of the Charger stuff. He can't even buff himself into a combat monster because he banned the schools with the buffs (he has plenty of AC-enhancers available. Shame about the whole FB thing...). It's not as overtly bad as, say, a Soulknife//Soulborn, but compared to the parts it's made up of? Horrible.

SurlySeraph
2010-06-10, 09:49 PM
It's like a Fenzied Bezerker with a Vow of Non-Violence.

Challenge accepted.
Illumian (Aeshkrau) Sorcerer 6/ Rage Mage 2/ Incantatrix 10// Barbarian 8/ Frenzied Berserker 10. Make sure to take Versatile Spellcaster and Rapid Metamagic. That way you'd at least get a bunch of bonus spells from the frenzy, and due to Versatile Spellcaster you can use them to get fewer higher-level spells (so you can actually cast them all before the frenzy wears off). And if you're in an antimagic field you can just deal nonlethal damage.

Now, it'd be vastly worse without Rage Mage (and is probably the only build ever made that that's true of), but as-is it's pretty functional.

Lycanthromancer
2010-06-10, 09:51 PM
Human factotum 11/chameleon 9//wizard/incantatrix/initiate of the sevenfold veils...

...AFTER he became an elan and swapped out to soulknife 1//commoner 1 with Infested with Chickens.

[edit] Also, the Righteous Rage feat would let all of those frenzied berzerker builds become perfectly viable.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-06-10, 09:54 PM
Fighter//Warrior

What are you? A normal Fighter. Because everything Warrior gets, Fighter already gets. Congratulations, you just failed at Gestalting.

Wizard20//Barbarian6/Bear Warrior10/Warhulk3/Frenzied Berserker 1

You take any damage, make a Will save. Make sure Wis is your dump stat. You fail? You rage.

You'd think that with Warhulk, you could do some rediculously sick damage. But alas, you turn into a Bear when you rage, who cannot pick things up and toss them.

And, of course, you cannot cast while raging.

Two perfectly viable builds, at complete odds with each other.

Draz74
2010-06-10, 10:14 PM
Wizard20//Barbarian6/Bear Warrior10/Warhulk3/Frenzied Berserker 1

You take any damage, make a Will save. Make sure Wis is your dump stat. You fail? You rage.

You'd think that with Warhulk, you could do some rediculously sick damage. But alas, you turn into a Bear when you rage, who cannot pick things up and toss them.

Awesome ... except I think you meant Hulking Hurler, not Warhulk.

erikun
2010-06-10, 11:24 PM
Please, there's nothing interesting about a bad gestalt that is bad only because the components that make it up are inherently bad.
That's most of the thread, though. I mean, Ghost/War Hulk? Dwarven Defender? That's only as bad as every other Dwarven Defender.

I mean, I could make a Vow of Poverty Artificer, but it is only "worst" as long as I'm actively trying to fulfill the vow. Break the vow and you're still an Artificer.

As for other builds, I'm not coming up with anything. The Wraith with their Daylight Powerlessness would be interesting with a class that generates natural sunlight, as does any undead gestalted with any class features reliant on Constitution.

Draz74
2010-06-10, 11:29 PM
As for other builds, I'm not coming up with anything. The Wraith with their Daylight Powerlessness would be interesting with a class that generates natural sunlight, as does any undead gestalted with any class features reliant on Constitution.

Heh, Wraith Shadow Sun Ninja with the Nimbus of Light feat. :smallamused:

Lycanthromancer
2010-06-10, 11:31 PM
A good-aligned necropolitan cleric/radiant servant of pelor//paladin, focused entirely on turning undead.

Guess who gets dusted first, since he's the closest undead nearby? :smallsigh:

erikun
2010-06-10, 11:38 PM
Talk about exploding with positive energy. :smallbiggrin:

Speaking of which, I believe the Mummy was statted somewhere as an ECL 20 creature. That would mean that a Mummy//Dragonfire Adept 20 or Mummy//Binder 20 is a 20th level character with no class abilities and CR 5 racial abilities. Woohoo, fun. Well, assuming I'm remembering the classes correctly.

Eldan
2010-06-11, 03:21 AM
That's most of the thread, though. I mean, Ghost/War Hulk? Dwarven Defender? That's only as bad as every other Dwarven Defender.


That's why I combined Dwarven Defender with Green Star Adept: makes you lose your constitution. Perhaps put a Deepwarden dip in as well, for con to AC.

Il_Vec
2010-06-11, 07:37 AM
Duskblade // Ninja.
I mean, this is very unsynergistic, and MAD. Still not a sneak attack fighter // knight, of course.