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Myou
2010-06-10, 10:54 AM
The class, not other posters. :smalltongue:

And are there any common or simple fixes?

Gnaeus
2010-06-10, 10:55 AM
Simple fix, use Swordsage, call it ninja. Almost as good, use Rogue, call it ninja.

Whats wrong with Ninja? It is like a rogue, which is tier 4, but sudden strike is weaker than sneak attack (because the easiest way for rogues to sneak attack is often to flank.) Also, light armor is better than Wisdom to AC unless you are a wisdom based build. Also, Rogue's can get around their weaknesses with UMD. Also, Ninjas get less skill points.

AstralFire
2010-06-10, 10:57 AM
Sudden Strike is terrible compared to sneak attack and the Ninja wasn't really given enough of an offense to compensate for having a much more situational offensive boost, even though it was an attempt at making sneak attack more of an interesting tactical boost rather than its present state of being mandated for rogue damage to stay competitive.

Greenish
2010-06-10, 11:11 AM
Them sneaky buggers, always tryin' to stab me laddies an' steal everyfin' that ain't nailed down (not that there's anyfin' wrong with that). Thems got no style, no dress sense, always just them black pajamas, that's what's wrong with 'em!

As for the class, it's just not good. The few features it gets are too little, too late. The simply way to fix it has already been mentioned.

gallagher
2010-06-10, 11:16 AM
the only thing it has better than rogue is its ki stuff. it means you have one less wand to buy.

if you go with a wisdom based build, with stuff like intuitive strike, you actually can do almost as well. have a handful of tanglefoot bags and a wizard who likes control and you are set

Fax Celestis
2010-06-10, 11:17 AM
The problem with ninjas is that anything they can do, a rogue can do better.

InkEyes
2010-06-10, 11:20 AM
Ninjas are designed as solo attackers; in order to use sudden strike they need to strike from a hidden place. That doesn't mesh well with a party that's not wholly stealth-based. If you're running a one-person game or one with tons of rogues/sneaking-types they can work out. Maybe not as well as a normal rogue or beguiler, but you'll have to take what you can get.

AmberVael
2010-06-10, 11:21 AM
The problem with ninjas is that anything they can do, a rogue can do better.

...and then Factotum comes along. :smalltongue:

And really, yeah, they're just pretty ineffective. Their damage dealing is bad in comparison to the rogue, they get a few less skill points (and many of the rogue's good skills are taken out), it takes them ages to get evasion, and their ki powers are simply too small and too few times per day.

2xMachina
2010-06-10, 11:24 AM
The flat footed is a freaking pain to get.

Best way I could think of is Invisible Blade 5 + Surprising Riposte. (Actually grease, but really)

(Iaijutsu Focus also needs flat footed.)

DragoonWraith
2010-06-10, 11:26 AM
Also, the fact that you get a point added to your Ki pool every two levels is just insulting. That's awful.

the humanity
2010-06-10, 11:31 AM
one easy fix is to make the ninja have sneak attack. in a party with a rogue, the ninja is less powerful, but just gets some nice tricks that make it just what you wanted... maybe 10% of the time. but ethereal step and the poison use make it perfect for being a sneaky one hitter.

Ormagoden
2010-06-10, 11:33 AM
They're poorly developed.

AstralFire
2010-06-10, 11:33 AM
I feel like any fixes to the Ninja should keep Sudden Strike distinct from Sneak Attack. Class rebuilds that change one of the core design conceits of a class are speaking to building to flavor and not mechanics, and if you're doing that, well. Unarmed Swordsage.

DragoonWraith
2010-06-10, 11:35 AM
If they have Sudden Strike they need to get Greater Invisibility at least during their turn, at-will, by like level 5.

Which is pretty stupid because then they pretty much always achieve Sudden Strike...

Fax Celestis
2010-06-10, 11:35 AM
I feel like any fixes to the Ninja should keep Sudden Strike distinct from Sneak Attack. Class rebuilds that change one of the core design conceits of a class are speaking to building to flavor and not mechanics, and if you're doing that, well. Unarmed Swordsage.

Distinct, sure, but Sudden Strike is one of the poorest excuses for a combat mechanic I have ever seen. I can see changing sudden strike (maybe it only applies when you flank, or when your weapon is poisoned, or something), but as-is, SS is garbage.

AstralFire
2010-06-10, 11:37 AM
If they have Sudden Strike they need to get Greater Invisibility at least during their turn, at-will, by like level 5.

Or the class needs to not revolve entirely around Sudden Strike. Or they need to get other bonuses against flat-footed opponents rather than being identical to rogues on flat-footed.


Distinct, sure, but Sudden Strike is one of the poorest excuses for a combat mechanic I have ever seen. I can see changing sudden strike (maybe it only applies when you flank, or when your weapon is poisoned, or something), but as-is, SS is garbage.

I think it's only bad because the class revolves around it, treating it as though it were not much of a loss compared to Sneak Attack.

G3N3R3L GHOST
2010-06-10, 11:40 AM
In an of itself Ninja is no good. For flavor purposes sure. I played a Ninja once into Master Thrower chucking shuriken left and right with palm toss etc. But honestly it needs to be reworked from the ground up. Ninja's are awesome...the class should follow suit and not blow so bad.

AmberVael
2010-06-10, 11:41 AM
You know, a lot of their problem could be negated if their hiding abilities were just made a bit better. Like, the idea of being able to swift action Invisible does in fact help Sudden Strike out a lot, the problem with it being that it doesn't scale or branch out. If they got it more times per day, or maybe longer durations and could eventually scale to say, Superior Invisibility or use a more mundane version that was harder to counter, it might not be all that bad.

Curmudgeon
2010-06-10, 11:49 AM
And are there any common or simple fixes?
Much of what's wrong with the class is that, unlike the Rogue, there was really negligible attention to the class after it was introduced. While it took years for Rogue fixes to arrive (Champions of Ruin 2 years after 3.5 Rogue was introduced with the Craven feat; Dungeonscape 3.5 years with the Penetrating Strike ACF), they did eventually come and it's finally possible to make the Rogue a viable melee class.

There are zero alternative class features (ACFs) for the Ninja. There are just two multiclass feats, both with weak classes (Ascetic Stalker for Monk, Martial Stalker for Fighter). There's one sudden stike-specific feat, and that's Epic.

So no, there are no common or simple fixes.

Fax Celestis
2010-06-10, 11:52 AM
Much of what's wrong with the class is that, unlike the Rogue, there was really negligible attention to the class after it was introduced. While it took years for Rogue fixes to arrive (Champions of Ruin 2 years after 3.5 Rogue was introduced with the Craven feat; Dungeonscape 3.5 years with the Penetrating Strike ACF), they did eventually come and it's finally possible to make the Rogue a viable melee class.

There are zero alternative class features (ACFs) for the Ninja. There are just two multiclass feats, both with weak classes (Ascetic Stalker for Monk, Martial Stalker for Fighter). There's one sudden stike-specific feat, and that's Epic.

So no, there are no common or simple fixes.

You appear to be forgetting Sneak Attack/Sudden Strike transparency. Craven, Ambush feats, and Telling Blow work just as well for a ninja as they do for a rogue.

Morty
2010-06-10, 11:57 AM
I don't really see the need for a "ninja fix". The part of the problem with the ninja class is that there's nothing about the concept of the ninja that can't be represented by a rogue or, if you want to have someone more "mystical" or more powerful, a swordsage.

Curmudgeon
2010-06-10, 12:13 PM
You appear to be forgetting Sneak Attack/Sudden Strike transparency. Craven, Ambush feats, and Telling Blow work just as well for a ninja as they do for a rogue.
No, I'm not forgetting anything. Sudden strike is a weaker ability than sneak attack, so all of these give proportionally the same benefit -- that is, they help the Ninja less than they help the Rogue. That difference is enough that I consider such feats enough to make the Rogue viable, but inadequate to fix the Ninja; it's still unplayable.

Starbuck_II
2010-06-10, 12:17 PM
If they have Sudden Strike they need to get Greater Invisibility at least during their turn, at-will, by like level 5.

Which is pretty stupid because then they pretty much always achieve Sudden Strike...

They do have Greater Invisibility. The trouble is the uses/day not the ability.

Really, I'd change the Ki uses to be per encounter instead of per day.

Yes, this means they can be invisible all battle when they get higher level (5 minutes rest after battle to recharge Ki), but it really works well as a fix.

It doesn't overpower the class in my mind.

Dairun Cates
2010-06-10, 12:29 PM
Well, obviously, part of the problem is that we're using a very narrow definition of Ninjas here (hide and assassinate), when pop culture's image of a ninja is actually pretty varied.

Stealthy and Silent Assassins that Wear Black: Check.
Seductive Deadly Geisha Consorts: Check.
The Agile, Teleporting, Never Get Hit Melee Specialist: Check.
The Black Suit Wearing Weapons Master: Check.
The Body Crippling/Nerve Striking Debuffer: Check.
The Freaky Fast Guy that Catches Arrows: Check.
Masters of One Hit Kills: Check.
Things that are Awesome and Play Guitar: Check... ish.
Counter-attacking Taoist Combat Masters: Check.
Intelligent Trickster Fighters: Check.
Something to gang up on a samurai 100 at a time: Check.
Mystical Magical Warriors that Merge with the Shadows Themselves: Check.

The list goes on, but these are all common ideals of what a ninja is. And yet (and here, I admit that I only know the basics of the ninja class in passing), the ninja class really only covers a COUPLE of these. You'd be better off with other classes for function AND flavor (although, if you somehow pull off that ninja/bard that kills people with his guitar in 3.5, tell me). Even the things its meant to do, other classes can do better.

So, this actually could be one of those cases where more options would be a nice thing. From what I know about the class from another players trying to play it and comments here, the Ninja doesn't really get an APPROPRIATE compensation for the Special Attack feature the rogue gets at level 10. While it may not seem it, this very much allows the rogue a lot of flexibility. That and more skill points due to a bit of focus on INT.

Eh. Mostly, I don't know. Seems like Eastern-styled classes all get too specific and get mucked up. Giving a wider array of workable powers and little build leniency would probably go a long way.

Amphetryon
2010-06-10, 12:30 PM
Shadowblade, the PrC from Tome of Magic, pairs fairly well with a Ninja.

Person_Man
2010-06-10, 12:32 PM
With the exception of Sudden Strike, 100% of their class abilities can be duplicated with low-moderate cost magic items and/or feats. They're pretty much in the same category as the Samurai.

Myou
2010-06-10, 01:05 PM
They do have Greater Invisibility. The trouble is the uses/day not the ability.

Really, I'd change the Ki uses to be per encounter instead of per day.

Yes, this means they can be invisible all battle when they get higher level (5 minutes rest after battle to recharge Ki), but it really works well as a fix.

It doesn't overpower the class in my mind.

You mean Greater Ki Dodge at level 18? All you get is the miss chance. :smallconfused:


Well, obviously, part of the problem is that we're using a very narrow definition of Ninjas here (hide and assassinate), when pop culture's image of a ninja is actually pretty varied.

Stealthy and Silent Assassins that Wear Black: Check.
Seductive Deadly Geisha Consorts: Check.
The Agile, Teleporting, Never Get Hit Melee Specialist: Check.
The Black Suit Wearing Weapons Master: Check.
The Body Crippling/Nerve Striking Debuffer: Check.
The Freaky Fast Guy that Catches Arrows: Check.
Masters of One Hit Kills: Check.
Things that are Awesome and Play Guitar: Check... ish.
Counter-attacking Taoist Combat Masters: Check.
Intelligent Trickster Fighters: Check.
Something to gang up on a samurai 100 at a time: Check.
Mystical Magical Warriors that Merge with the Shadows Themselves: Check.

The list goes on, but these are all common ideals of what a ninja is.

Wow, no they're not. :smalltongue:

Stealthy and Silent Assassins that Wear Black: Yes
Seductive Deadly Geisha Consorts: No
The Agile, Teleporting, Never Get Hit Melee Specialist: Yes
The Black Suit Wearing Weapons Master: No
The Body Crippling/Nerve Striking Debuffer: No
The Freaky Fast Guy that Catches Arrows: Yes
Masters of One Hit Kills: Yes
Things that are Awesome and Play Guitar: No
Counter-attacking Taoist Combat Masters: No
Intelligent Trickster Fighters: No
Something to gang up on a samurai 100 at a time: No
Mystical Magical Warriors that Merge with the Shadows Themselves: Yes

Starbuck_II
2010-06-10, 01:09 PM
You mean Greater Ki Dodge at level 18? All you get is the miss chance. :smallconfused:


You do realize Ghost Step is not Invisibility but Invisibility the Status (basically Greater Invisibility for 1 rd as a swift action), right? Sage, Faq, and RAW all agree.

Man, maybe this misconception causes ther Ninja hate.

Yes, people: CV Ninjas can go Greater Invis 1 rd as a swift action, deal with it.

The only fix the Ninjua needs is for Ki is refresh afte a 5 minute rest (basically you can go Nova ever battle).



The only reason to use Ki dodge and Greater Ki dodge is if someone can see invisible. They aren't negated by see invisible.

Fax Celestis
2010-06-10, 01:17 PM
You do realize Ghost Step is not Invisibility but Invisibility the Status (basically Greater Invisibility for 1 rd as a swift action), right? Sage, Faq, and RAW all agree.

Man, maybe this misconception causes ther Ninja hate.

Yes, people: CV Ninjas can go Greater Invis 1 rd as a swift action, deal with it.

It still only lasts 1 round. Which means you run out of invisibilities in one combat.

Myou
2010-06-10, 01:17 PM
You do realize Ghost Step is not Invisibility but Invisibility the Status (basically Greater Invisibility for 1 rd as a swift action), right? Sage, Faq, and RAW all agree.

Man, maybe this misconception causes ther Ninja hate.

Yes, people: CV Ninjas can go Greater Invis 1 rd as a swift action, deal with it.

The only fix the Ninjua needs is for Ki is refresh afte a 5 minute rest (basically you can go Nova ever battle).



The only reason to use Ki dodge and Greater Ki dodge is if someone can see invisible. They aren't negated by see invisible.

Ohhhhhh, that's pretty nice then.
It still seems like sudden strike needs to work differently. I imagine being keyed to you being hidden from sight in some way, such as being invisible.

Starbuck_II
2010-06-10, 01:19 PM
It still only lasts 1 round. Which means you run out of invisibilities in one combat.

Then you add in the fix (refreshing Ki), at level 2 that is 2-3 rds of 1 rd (every battle).

Since most battle don't go past 5 rd, that isn't bad.

Fax Celestis
2010-06-10, 01:25 PM
Then you add in the fix (refreshing Ki), at level 2 that is 2-3 rds of 1 rd (every battle).

Since most battle don't go past 5 rd, that isn't bad.

If you have to fix it, it is broken. Therefore, ninjas are broken.

Greenish
2010-06-10, 01:33 PM
Wow, no they're not. :smalltongue:

The Black Suit Wearing Weapons Master: No

Something to gang up on a samurai 100 at a time: NoWhat "no"? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8n3544zeLw)

Kaiyanwang
2010-06-10, 01:47 PM
You do realize Ghost Step is not Invisibility but Invisibility the Status (basically Greater Invisibility for 1 rd as a swift action), right? Sage, Faq, and RAW all agree.


Good point Starbuck_II. That does not means that Ninja IS TEH UBERCLASS but people often overlook this.

ACF and few ninjas feats appeared in dragon magazines (even if is better use Rogue-related feats most times). Check it out in crystalkeep, if available.

Moreover, there are lots of way to make people flat-footed. Is true that NInjas play better alone - as one of my players that always played one said - but at worst, you could fix it RAW: use Epic Destinies (http://www.wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx?x=dnd/drfe/20080428) for 3.5, an adjudicate the ninja viable for pre epic option (last part of the page).

At will greater invisibility ADDED to ki powers should work. And d8 sudden strike. You can have these two by level 15.

Ormagoden
2010-06-10, 01:49 PM
Hrm...I guess if you made sudden strike apply to enemies you go before in any given round and/or who are denied their dexterity bonus it's not so bad.

But what about the rest of the class?

Make Ki invisibility last your Wisdom bonus in rounds maybe?

But what other tweaks?

Dairun Cates
2010-06-10, 02:04 PM
Wow, no they're not. :smalltongue:

Seductive Deadly Geisha Consorts: No
The Black Suit Wearing Weapons Master: No
The Body Crippling/Nerve Striking Debuffer: No
Things that are Awesome and Play Guitar: No
Counter-attacking Taoist Combat Masters: No
Intelligent Trickster Fighters: No
Something to gang up on a samurai 100 at a time: No

Actually while not all of these are as common as the other ones, they are actually legitimate things that some people think of when they say the word Ninja. Specifically...

-Seductive Deadly Geisha Consorts: This is actually a pretty common theme in shows that occur in the Shogunate era of Japan. Female assassin gets trained as a consort for the sake of gaining the trust of a Shogun and uses that to get him close and defenseless so you can kill them.

-The Black Suit Wearing Weapons Master: This is also pretty common. Ninjas get portrayed frequently as skilled masters of multiple weapons. Ryu Hayabusa from the more RECENT Ninja Gaiden games is a pretty good example of this. Agile, fast, dodgey, but still capable of wielding a big ole scythe.

-The Body Crippling/Nerve Striking Debuffer: Actually, real life ninjutsu is primarily an art of knowing where pressure and vital points are. While this mostly means assassination, they do also frequently teach techniques to cripple a foe using their pressure points in an emergency. These range from merely weakening muscles to stopping the victim's heart. Now, this varies in real life effectiveness (some people have trained the requisite 20 years to do it and can hit it about 3 out of 4 times), but we're not particularly discussing realism here when Wizards come into it at all. Hell. Why do you think Dr. McNinja even EXISTS if there wasn't at least some of this?

-Things that are Awesome and Play Guitar: Mostly put here as a joke, but it IS a reference to one of the most popular ninja-based websites on the web (Real Ultimate Power), and some people do think of that website first when you say Ninja.

-Counter-attacking Taoist Combat Masters: Another thing that's actually more common than you think and is based on several martial arts. There actually are quite a few counter-attacking techniques in Ninjutsu. It's a prime way to ensure a way to get a solid hit at a vital point. The Taoism thing is a reference to several principles in Taoism that got adapted to martial arts in the style where a minimum amount of force can be used to turn a foe's full blow against them. Basically, a small and agile target can inflict massive damage on a target by using their momentum against them.

-Intelligent Trickster Fighters: If we go into the mystical magical Ninja style of ninjas (which you admitted exist to at least some extent), there really are fictional stories of Ninjas using traps, changing forms to disguise themselves, and minor illusions to throw off bad guys.

-Something to gang up on a samurai 100 at a time: Once again. Mild joke. This is a reference to the works of Akira Kurosawa and how one samurai seems to be able to take down 100 ninja, but one ninja alone is a fair fight for him. It's called the Inverse Ninja Law OR The Kurosawa Corollary. It's still something people think of when they hear Ninja.

Some of these aren't very practical to believe ever existed in the real world, but MOST of them are very real character archetypes that someone might want to play, and D&D isn't exactly REALITY.

My point is that, Ninja is actually a fairly broad term, all things considered. There's more to assassination than hiding and slashing people's necks. The Ninja base class, though, covers actually a very small spectrum of that term.

Compare that to the Fighter, where there's a huge number of permutations on how you handle the class based on feats. There's obviously some stock ones and there's obviously some better ones that most people go to, but there actually is a lot of freedom there (it's not powerful, but there's freedom).

Take the Wizard. Specialize in any school and you have a distinctly different build from the other specializations. There's batman wizards, blaster wizards, debuff wizards, buff wizards, etc.

Take the Rogue. You have melee rogues, charisma rogues, dodgey rogues, ranged hide and shoot rogues, and straight skill monkey/trap-finder rogues.

Point is. A lot of classes offer flexibility and a LOT of different ways to play them. Not all of them are equal, but they're valid. The base class mostly shows you how to play sneaky invisible cut and run ninja guys. It's not very flexible, and you're not getting an incredibly awesome compensating power factor for it.

True. You can do weird cross-class combination to get the same effects as some of those examples. They may not be optimized, but they're doable. Still, the problem appears to be that, with all their flavor, they just don't stick out as bringing anything new to the table. Sure, with optimization, you can make them pretty awesome, but there's not a lot here that a rogue or monk doesn't already do.

They're given all these weird powers. Why not give a wider choice of Ninja only abilities that can't be mimicked with magic items. Deadly nerve strikes, the ability to turn into a dog or another person at will, counterattacks, secret weapon techniques. More choice is usually a pretty good option to making a class look more attractive and interesting.

Like I said, I only know the class in passing from a friend wanting to play one once, but it seems like the problem really is variety and difference that distinguishes it from the rogue and monk.


What "no"? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8n3544zeLw)

Amusingly enough. That's actually closer to what REAL Ninjas did than what most people THINK they do. It was all about disposable assault teams that catch people off guard and kill them off before they can defend themselves. The ninja was usually pretty screwed once the weapons came out since Ninja swords are pieces of cheap crap.

Hague
2010-06-10, 02:20 PM
Okay, there's a lot of hate in here for ninja but really they aren't _that_ bad. They gain poison use at 3rd level, the earliest any class can get it. They are also significantly more mobile than a Rogue, allowing them the leisure of being a scout in many dangerous situations, even at early levels, more so than a rogue. Yes, a rogue can gain all these abilities with a few magical items, but that same metric can be applied with damn near any ability. The biggest gripe I have is that ninja don't have Use Magic Device, which really hampers their versatility.

Personally, I'd house-rule that a ninja gets 8x skills instead of 6x like CA says. Also, I'd say make Ki Dodge an immediate action instead of a swift one, increasing the miss chance incrementally toward 50% from 20% up to 50% (20% at 6th, 30% at 10th, 40% at 14th and 50% at 18th)

The ninja could use a mechanic to regain their ki power too. Maybe regaining a ki point when they kill/disable an enemy with their sudden strike or poison? That way the ninja could be the class that skirts the battle, using ghost step to take out mooks while the rest of the party deals with the big bad guy. This could probably go a long way toward making the samurai a better class by restoring their kiai smites as they defeat worthy foes (enemies with CR = character level - 2) I made the samurai better by allowing a character to use Kiai Shout (if they have the feat) with a Kiai Smite. Hey, they're yelling "KIAI!" really loudly when they smite, right?

Really, any comparison to Tome of Battle classes is rather unfair. Having read Tome of Battle, I'd say those classes are easily twice as good as any of the non-caster standard classes (seeing as how they are all geared toward the encounter powers instead of daily powers, slowly boiling the pot for a conversion to 4e, as it were) I mean, the 9th level Desert Wind maneuver (the 60 foot burst, flat 100 fire damage attack) is rather powerful since it can effectively be used every minute. Imagine a steam engine powered by some dude swinging a scimitar around for hours. The power creep in that book is pretty glaring by comparison to the other classes (yes, I know, cheesy mages know cheese but at least a wizard has to rest 8 hours between dealing multiples of 25d6 damage) Otherwise, a lot of the abilities in Tome of Battle are pretty darn sweet, even for dipping.

Greenish
2010-06-10, 02:49 PM
I mean, the 9th level Desert Wind maneuver (the 60 foot burst, flat 100 fire damage attack) is rather powerful since it can effectively be used every minute. Imagine a steam engine powered by some dude swinging a scimitar around for hours.It can be used every twelve seconds, and yet a permament wall of fire is a better option.

Foryn Gilnith
2010-06-10, 02:56 PM
They gain poison use at 3rd level, the earliest any class can get it.
Rogue and Bard can get it earlier using Drow of the Underdark substitution levels.


Having read Tome of Battle, I'd say those classes are easily twice as good as any of the non-caster standard classes
I'd have to disagree.

The power creep in that book is pretty glaring by comparison to the other classes
I'd have to agree.

The thing is that Tome of Battle, compared the core books, has all the power creep consolidated into one book. The other classes have their power creep spread out over many books, so looking at Tome of Battle in isolation may give the impression that martial adepts pound standard classes in the dust; which is untrue IMO.

Gnaeus
2010-06-10, 03:22 PM
Okay, there's a lot of hate in here for ninja but really they aren't _that_ bad.

Really, any comparison to Tome of Battle classes is rather unfair. Having read Tome of Battle, I'd say those classes are easily twice as good as any of the non-caster standard classes

What is your goal in a class? To be equal to Monk, Fighter, CW Samurai, Healer and Truenamer? You are right, Ninja is not that bad. In that party ninja makes a fine addition.

To be equal to a blaster Sorcerer or a Bard? Tome of Battle gets there, ninja does not.

Equal to big 3? ToB is outclassed, Ninja not on the same plane of existence.

Most people feel that tier 3 (always useful) or tier 4 (usually useful, with a good trick) are the marks to aim for. Ninja is strictly weaker than Rogue. The few miniscule advantages the class gets are overcome by ACFs, item use, or single level dips in better classes (like Assassin).

If you like the tier 5 classes, play ninja like it is. You won't be disappointed.

Eldariel
2010-06-10, 04:02 PM
Few things not mentioned yet:
- They lack Use Magic Device, meaning their magical abilities are restricted to what the class grants them (contrast Rogues)
- They only have 6+Int skills with secondary Wisdom-focus meaning they'll probably have less Int than Rogues leaving them far behind in skillpoints, which is obviously quite bad for a skill monkey.
- Their weapon proficiencies include no martial one-handed weapon and take some trash from the Monk-list; early on this really hurts compared to Rogues.
- Unfortunately, Poisons as written are way expensive and somewhat inefficient for regular use and they're supposed to be a big power source of the class.

Gnaeus
2010-06-10, 04:05 PM
Few things not mentioned yet:
- They lack Use Magic Device, meaning their magical abilities are restricted to what the class grants them (contrast Rogues)
- They only have 6+Int skills with secondary Wisdom-focus meaning they'll probably have less Int than Rogues leaving them far behind in skillpoints, which is obviously quite bad for a skill monkey.

Those things were mentioned in the second post and have been mentioned again since then.

Eldariel
2010-06-10, 04:12 PM
Those things were mentioned in the second post and have been mentioned again since then.

Considering I read the entire thread, it's quite worrying that I managed to miss that. Ah well, "voice to the choir" then, I guess; Sudden Strike-discussion seems to have blacked out most of the other points (aside from the generic-but-true "Rogue does it better").

Myou
2010-06-10, 04:16 PM
What "no"? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8n3544zeLw)

It appears you didn't actually watch the link you just posted, since it doesn't actually refute my assertation. Also, it's already been posted in the thread. :smalltongue:


If you have to fix it, it is broken. Therefore, ninjas are broken.

Yes, we were talking about fixes.

DragoonWraith
2010-06-10, 04:30 PM
Okay, there's a lot of hate in here for ninja but really they aren't _that_ bad.
Yes, they are. The compare poorly to the Rogue, which is not a great class. Decent, but not great.


They gain poison use at 3rd level, the earliest any class can get it.
Incorrect, useless.


They are also significantly more mobile than a Rogue, allowing them the leisure of being a scout in many dangerous situations, even at early levels, more so than a rogue. Yes, a rogue can gain all these abilities with a few magical items, but that same metric can be applied with damn near any ability.
Invisibility for one round? Bonuses to jumping? Minor, not to mention a Beguiler can do much better.


The biggest gripe I have is that ninja don't have Use Magic Device, which really hampers their versatility.
Certainly does.


Personally, I'd house-rule that a ninja gets 8x skills instead of 6x like CA says. Also, I'd say make Ki Dodge an immediate action instead of a swift one, increasing the miss chance incrementally toward 50% from 20% up to 50% (20% at 6th, 30% at 10th, 40% at 14th and 50% at 18th)
Not even close to enough.


The ninja could use a mechanic to regain their ki power too. Maybe regaining a ki point when they kill/disable an enemy with their sudden strike or poison? That way the ninja could be the class that skirts the battle, using ghost step to take out mooks while the rest of the party deals with the big bad guy. This could probably go a long way toward making the samurai a better class by restoring their kiai smites as they defeat worthy foes (enemies with CR = character level - 2) I made the samurai better by allowing a character to use Kiai Shout (if they have the feat) with a Kiai Smite. Hey, they're yelling "KIAI!" really loudly when they smite, right?
Better, but their Ki pool is still much too small to begin with. Still, I like this idea.


Really, any comparison to Tome of Battle classes is rather unfair.
Why? They're widely considered the best balanced classes in 3.5. I happen to agree.


Having read Tome of Battle, I'd say those classes are easily twice as good as any of the non-caster standard classes
Better than the Paladin, Monk, Ranger, and Fighter? Oh, thank god. They're better than four of the worst classes ever printed for 3.5. Finally, we can replace them with something that works. Or not replace, since they multiclass together very nicely. The Ranger's kind of the odd man out here, since he's quite a bit better than the other three, but hey, he also doesn't have an exact analogue in Tome of Battle, so that works out nicely.

If you meant to include the Barbarian, Bard, or Rogue, I'm simply going to tell you that you are wrong. They're more flexible than the Barbarian or Rogue, but decidedly not better. The Rogue is still a far better skillmonkey than any of the Tome of Battle classes, and a charging, pouncing, raging Barbarian will do a hell of a lot more damage than any of the Martial Adepts. It'll just be boring as hell to play.


(seeing as how they are all geared toward the encounter powers instead of daily powers, slowly boiling the pot for a conversion to 4e, as it were)
I fail to see any inherent problem with this. I have my gripes about 4e but the maneuver system is excellent.


I mean, the 9th level Desert Wind maneuver (the 60 foot burst, flat 100 fire damage attack) is rather powerful since it can effectively be used every minute. Imagine a steam engine powered by some dude swinging a scimitar around for hours.
It's a 9th level maneuver. What on earth do you expect? The ability to ignore aging that never happens during a campaign and to gain an effect that the Wizard's had for 15 levels? That move is still massively weaker than 9th level spells. Massively.


The power creep in that book is pretty glaring by comparison to the other classes (yes, I know, cheesy mages know cheese but at least a wizard has to rest 8 hours between dealing multiples of 25d6 damage)
A. you massively underestimate what a Wizard can do if you think multiples of 25d6 damage is impressive in any way.

B. you massively overestimate the problem posed by resting. A Wizard of 9th level or higher will almost always be able to rest whenever he wants, wherever he wants, with absolutely nothing that can be done about it.

C. Nothing in Tome of Battle compares in any way with any full-caster ever printed with the exception of the Healer and potentially the Dread Necromancer and Warmage.


Otherwise, a lot of the abilities in Tome of Battle are pretty darn sweet, even for dipping.
Right, because it's well-written. Unlike every other class, feat, or ability given to any martial class in any other book written for 3.5.

Keld Denar
2010-06-10, 04:48 PM
The main problem with ninjas is that they make poor grapplers. I mean, the easiest way to stop a ninja from grabbing you is to light yourself on fire. Ninjas can't grab you if you are on fire.

Also, ninjas don't work well in partys due to the Law of Conservation of Ninjitsu. In any given encounter, the amount of ninjitu present is finite. If its just the ninja by himself, he can often get the jump on someone and has a good chance to take him out. If the ninja has friends, the ninjitsu gets spread too thin, and its less likely that the ninja will triumph through shear ninjitsu alone. At that point, brute force takes over. Ninjas are not party friendly.

sofawall
2010-06-10, 04:49 PM
C. Nothing in Tome of Battle compares in any way with any full-caster ever printed with the exception of the Healer and potentially the Dread Necromancer and Warmage.

Dread Necromancer is badass. That is all.

EDIT: I was ninja'd by one skilled in the ways of doctors.

Fax Celestis
2010-06-10, 04:54 PM
Yes, we were talking about fixes.

No, we were talking about what was wrong with the ninja. Read the topic title.

Starbuck_II
2010-06-10, 05:10 PM
No, we were talking about what was wrong with the ninja. Read the topic title.

No, we were talking about both. Title is so outdated. :smallbiggrin:

Myou
2010-06-10, 05:15 PM
No, we were talking about what was wrong with the ninja. Read the topic title.

....

I posted the topic. :smallsigh:


The class, not other posters. :smalltongue:

And are there any common or simple fixes?

This thread is about what's wrong with the class, and how to fix it.

Fax Celestis
2010-06-10, 06:16 PM
Fine. Try one of these (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tome_of_Battle) well-crafted (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=92221) and wonderful (http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php?title=Ninja)fixes (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94207).

lesser_minion
2010-06-10, 06:27 PM
I imagine emphasising the whole 'patient master of disguise' aspect could help out Sudden Strike, if you're unwilling to ditch the ability.

I think we can safely say that opponents would be flat-footed against a volley of shuriken issuing from a chamber pot. Or from a shuriken. Or even from something saner, like a tree.

Just be careful not to make certain disguises too good, because that would be a bit squicky.

And yeah... shuriken that are actually ninja in disguise throwing shuriken that are also ninja in disguise is both absurd and heading into 'mindbender' territory.


The main problem with ninjas is that they make poor grapplers. I mean, the easiest way to stop a ninja from grabbing you is to light yourself on fire. Ninjas can't grab you if you are on fire.

What the actualise radishes greenly ninja what who how why how what mind breakage pain?


Also, ninjas don't work well in partys due to the Law of Conservation of Ninjitsu. In any given encounter, the amount of ninjitu present is finite. If its just the ninja by himself, he can often get the jump on someone and has a good chance to take him out. If the ninja has friends, the ninjitsu gets spread too thin, and its less likely that the ninja will triumph through shear ninjitsu alone. At that point, brute force takes over. Ninjas are not party friendly.

You do know that's a myth, don't you? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekJHJbMpQgM) (may be pushing it a little).

Greenish
2010-06-10, 06:28 PM
It appears you didn't actually watch the link you just posted, since it doesn't actually refute my assertation.What, I see at least a hundred black-clad ninjas fighting samurai with four or five different weapons, two of which are exotic.

Starbuck_II
2010-06-10, 06:33 PM
Fine. Try one of these (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tome_of_Battle) well-crafted (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=92221) and wonderful (http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php?title=Ninja)fixes (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94207).

You stole Ghost step in your Fax Encyclopedia version? Why the nerf?

Greenish
2010-06-10, 06:37 PM
I think we can safely say that opponents would be flat-footed against a volley of shuriken issuing from a chamber pot. Or from a shuriken. Or even from something saner, like a tree.You mean this: http://www.suburban-nightmare.com/images/housepics/cardboardbox.jpg

lesser_minion
2010-06-10, 06:44 PM
You mean this:http://www.suburban-nightmare.com/images/housepics/cardboardbox.jpg


Ninja. That particular silliness is the exclusive province of Metal Gear Solid.

Plus, what happens if Snake hides in a ninja disguised as a box? We. Do. Not. Want.

AstralFire
2010-06-10, 06:46 PM
Here's an idea to start - make Sudden Strike emphasize the sudden-ness. What if the Ninja can eventually treat any character he did not attack the previous round as flat-footed?

lesser_minion
2010-06-10, 06:50 PM
Here's an idea to start - make Sudden Strike emphasize the sudden-ness. What if the Ninja can eventually treat any character he did not attack the previous round as flat-footed?

That could work.

I think the master of disguise thing could work, as long as whoever writes it doesn't end up overdoing it (see above).

Greenish
2010-06-10, 06:58 PM
You do know that's a myth, don't you? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekJHJbMpQgM) (may be pushing it a little).That seems a rather good demonstration of the conservation of ninjutsu in action.

lesser_minion
2010-06-10, 07:00 PM
That seems a rather good demonstration of the conservation of ninjutsu in action.

Not really... she gets pretty badly slaughtered. And considering some of the things Tifa does earlier in the series, she should be pretty good against more typical enemies.

It's more of a "last breath badass" thing than a "ninjutsu is conserved" thing.

Although I guess the clones could qualify... except for the whole clones vs. summons thing in DF4. That's even less of a 'ninjutsu is conserved' case.

Greenish
2010-06-10, 07:15 PM
Not really... she gets pretty badly slaughtered. And considering some of the things Tifa does earlier in the series, she should be pretty good against more typical enemies.She slaughters faceless mooks like it's going out of fashion! She loses because the other girl and the guy in white, neither of whom fights her when she's plowing through the ninjas.

Eldariel
2010-06-10, 07:15 PM
The real question is what do we need the Ninja-class for in the first place? Isn't it completely eclipsed by Rogue or SS anyways? I mean, what are ninjas but Rogues?

Greenish
2010-06-10, 07:16 PM
I mean, what are ninjas but Rogues?Punching bags for pirates, d'oh.

lesser_minion
2010-06-10, 07:21 PM
The real question is what do we need the Ninja-class for in the first place? Isn't it completely eclipsed by Rogue or SS anyways? I mean, what are ninjas but Rogues?

In theory, it's possible to establish differences between ninjas and rogues.

However, yes, there is the whole "base class proliferation" issue.

At the moment, you can already build something approaching a ninja using a bard (seductress, remember?), a swordsage, or a rogue. So crowbarring bits and pieces of all three of those classes into one class might make sense.

Greenish
2010-06-10, 07:24 PM
At the moment, you can already build something approaching a ninja using a bard (seductress, remember?), a swordsage, or a rogue.Or factotum, or beguiler…

Fax Celestis
2010-06-10, 07:30 PM
You stole Ghost step in your Fax Encyclopedia version? Why the nerf?

That's not mine, it's Proven_Paradox's. He just uses some space on my wiki.

Mikeavelli
2010-06-10, 11:11 PM
Alright, I've actually used Ninja NPC's as antagonists in a game. There were 4 13th level PC's against 3 10th level Ninjas and 2 CR 10 Monsters (I took Sand Giants and refluffed them into "Oni" servants).

Their Shurikan were coated with Colossal Spider Venom (So the players could fight the actual Spider later in the campaign), which is a DC 28 Fort save for 2d8 Strength damage. This was the only benefit a conventional Ninja player would not have in similar circumstances (as most DMG poisons suck balls and cost too much).

This nearly resulted in a TPK.

In subsequent encounters, the players prepared properly against Ninja (Heroes feast to be immune to poison, see invisibility on everyone, etc) - and the circumstances were reversed, the Ninja were almost completely unable to affect the party.

They're a one-trick pony that either dominates, or is completely worthless.

Good for a surprise if your players are getting sloppy though.

PId6
2010-06-11, 12:00 AM
(Iaijutsu Focus also needs flat footed.)
Fun feat: Mercurial Strike from Dragon 310. When someone provokes AoO from you while you're unarmed, you can draw a weapon and attack them, and they're flat-footed to your attack. Add Quickrazor and Robilar's Gambit, and lots and lots of Iaijutsu Focus. Stir well.


Okay, there's a lot of hate in here for ninja but really they aren't _that_ bad. They gain poison use at 3rd level, the earliest any class can get it.
Rogues get it at level 1 through an ACF in DotU.

Hague
2010-06-11, 01:00 AM
Rogues get it at level 1 through an ACF in DotU.

You mean Drow rogues and Bards get it. Try getting poison use for a non-evil character.

Actually, I think the best way to improve Ninja would be to add a few bonus Ambush Feats to their class progression. Maybe change the damage to 1d8 and 2d8 or 1d10 with their Epic Feat.

Also, there are ways to make poison according to Book of Vile Darkness, but those rules are pretty lame. It was given an redundant craft skill, poisonmaking (but you could use alchemy at a -4 penalty) while Dungeonscape flat out has you make Trollbane (an injury poison) with an Alchemy check. According to the poisonmaking rules, I can brew a magic potion faster than I can brew one single dose of small centipede poison since a single dose is so damn valuable. Though, I guess I'd rule that you can make a large number of doses from the glands of a particularly large critter. I mean, how much poison can you brew out of a colossal spider anyway?

Kaiyanwang
2010-06-11, 02:34 AM
You mean Drow rogues and Bards get it. Try getting poison use for a non-evil character.


Actually, there is not reason to not allow those ACF to other races, if needed. There are not mechanical problems.

Moreover, in the same book there is a feat to gai poison use and apply poison as a swift action. Well THAT could override the Ninja move action.

PId6
2010-06-11, 03:34 AM
You mean Drow rogues and Bards get it. Try getting poison use for a non-evil character.
The ACFs in DotU are drow-themed, but they're not restricted to drow characters.

Gnaeus
2010-06-11, 05:55 AM
You mean Drow rogues and Bards get it. Try getting poison use for a non-evil character.

1. Assuming your DM doesn't think poison use is an evil act (many do, and they have sourcebook support for their view) it is almost always easier to get a DM to waive the evil requirement on Assassin than to rewrite Ninja to something even equal with rogue.

2. Why would you need poison use on a level 3 character? if you have money to flush down the toilet as a precision damage character, throwing acid flasks is much more effective.

Yora
2010-06-11, 05:57 AM
Also if you can afford poison, you can also afford a potion of neutralize poison and lesser restoration.

lesser_minion
2010-06-11, 06:46 AM
I guess there's always the Opportunist feats, although those are probably banned in most campaigns (from Dragon magazine, don't remember the exact issue).

Myou
2010-06-11, 07:46 AM
Fine. Try one of these (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tome_of_Battle) well-crafted (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=92221) and wonderful (http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php?title=Ninja)fixes (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94207).

Wow, I've never met anyone who called their own homebrew 'wonderful' before.

AstralFire
2010-06-11, 07:49 AM
Wow, I've never met anyone who called their own homebrew 'wonderful' before.

Eh. While Fax and I don't see eye-to-eye on many design principles at all, that's really a matter of taste. He is a pretty good designer. Most of that's not his, anyway.

Myou
2010-06-11, 07:53 AM
Eh. While Fax and I don't see eye-to-eye on many design principles at all, that's really a matter of taste. He is a pretty good designer. Most of that's not his, anyway.

I'm just teasing. :smalltongue:

Hague
2010-06-11, 02:51 PM
If a DM flat out says all poison use is evil, they need to have a chat with a Couatl and maybe a druid who'd be offended that all awakened venomous animals are functionally evil by nature of their existence. Imagine the newly awakened serpent, coming to terms with the nature of it's evil constitution-damaging poison. In order to maintain moral superiority, it must starve to death or risk becoming a petitioner of the Lower Planes.

Poison use is dishonorable, for certain, but by that metric spell-storing weapons are dishonorable, so are sneak attacks, sudden strikes, or generally striking anyone while they are flat-footed. Any form of deception would be dishonorable. Evil? Well that's really context sensitive. Is it evil to use a charisma damaging poison on the genocidal sorcerer to prevent him from casting his Meteor Swarm? The charisma damage isn't lethal so how could it be evil? Really the whole "Poison is Evil" is a stupid hold-over from 1st Edition to reflect the personal opinion of a writer at the time and was grand-fathered in by fans-turned-writers. The Book of Vile Darkness even notes that context determines evil. Poison used in the right ways is no more evil than any other method of killing.

After a lot of careful thought, the effective costs of poisons aren't really that outrageous. A potion of Neutralize Poison is 750 gp, and most 15 DC poisons are less than half that price. Notably, most poisons are extraordinary, so they don't suffer in anti-magic areas, a very dangerous weakness for many supernatural-based classes. Since the ninja can use Craft skills to make their own poisons, it stands to reason that a clever ninja can make poisons from lots of creatures. Even the lowliest carrion crawler provides materials to make x number of doses of Carrion Crawler Brain Juice, a potential 200 gp value/dose that provides instant paralysis to any living thing. A liberal DM could allow the manufacture of poisons that affect other things like oozes. There's also nothing preventing a ninja from using Ravages (Book of Exalted Deeds) since if they aren't class-required to be evil, they can make use of them quite easily, though they aren't technically poisons.

Why use poison though? Let's see, I can apply poison to a set of shurikens, volleying them I can deal poison damage with each one. Using drow poison, you can render multiple enemies unconscious for 75gp a dose. That's cheaper than a sleep arrow at 139 GP for an 11 DC save. The variety of poisons makes them very useful too. Powerful magic-users with typically low Fortitude saves are very vulnerable to poison and loss of key attributes can drastically disable them. If your cleric suddenly loses 6 wisdom, can they even muster the ability to cast a Neutralize poison spell? Not most NPCs even with Elite arrays. Damage resistance also doesn't apply with contact poisons, which can be applied with a touch attack. Elemental rime can even give fire vulnerability to the affected, improving the damage-dealing capabilities of your spell-casting friends (or your keen flaming burst kama with Improved Trip) Poison are no more or less expensive than many forms of equivalent expendables.

Edit: The system for creating new poisons in the Legends and Lairs sourcebook, Traps and Treachery I, should give you some idea of what can be done with poisons.

Gnaeus
2010-06-11, 03:51 PM
If a DM flat out says all poison use is evil, they need to have a chat with a Couatl and maybe a druid who'd be offended that all awakened venomous animals are functionally evil by nature of their existence. Really the whole "Poison is Evil" is a stupid hold-over from 1st Edition to reflect the personal opinion of a writer at the time and was grand-fathered in by fans-turned-writers.

Since I couldn't care less, I won't debate you on "poison is evil". Some DMs say poison is evil. Some books agree with them.

If poison ISN'T evil, when many sources treat it like it is, it is still easier to convince a DM to allow non-evil assassins (The iconic LN assassin being James Bond), than to fix the ninja.


After a lot of careful thought, the effective costs of poisons aren't really that outrageous. A potion of Neutralize Poison is 750 gp, and most 15 DC poisons are less than half that price. Notably, most poisons are extraordinary, so they don't suffer in anti-magic areas, a very dangerous weakness for many supernatural-based classes. Since the ninja can use Craft skills to make their own poisons, it stands to reason that a clever ninja can make poisons from lots of creatures. Even the lowliest carrion crawler provides materials to make x number of doses of Carrion Crawler Brain Juice, a potential 200 gp value/dose that provides instant paralysis to any living thing. A liberal DM could allow the manufacture of poisons that affect other things like oozes. There's also nothing preventing a ninja from using Ravages (Book of Exalted Deeds) since if they aren't class-required to be evil, they can make use of them quite easily, though they aren't technically poisons.

Why use poison though? Let's see, I can apply poison to a set of shurikens, volleying them I can deal poison damage with each one. Using drow poison, you can render multiple enemies unconscious for 75gp a dose.

That is pretty steep for common use at level 3. By the level where you are really going to want to spend WBL on multiple poisons, there are multiple other ways to get poison use or a functional equivalent.

Virtually anything you can kill with poison is vulnerable to sudden strike/sneak attack.

A 5th level rogue or ninja (human with 1 flaw) can deal 9d6 +3d3 +3 damage in one round with 3 thrown flasks (30 gp) + maybe a wand charge (price varies by strategy). Thrown flasks are touch attacks, so you will almost never miss against most foes (unlike your shuriken of questionable legality), and there is no save.

Biggest complaint against thrown flasks (aside from the wierd image of acid flask throwing rogues) is that they are too expensive, but they are usually cheaper than dropping the same enemy with poison.


Edit: The system for creating new poisons in the Legends and Lairs sourcebook, Traps and Treachery I, should give you some idea of what can be done with poisons.

Thats cool. While we are roaming 3rd party material, Pathfinder also gives poison use to the Rogue, and adds a new class, the Alchemist, who also uses poison better than the Ninja and can throw bombs and turn into Mr. Hyde.

Hague
2010-06-11, 06:45 PM
Yeah, I'm gonna be the one to state that a grenade-like missile probably shouldn't be capable of "precision damage." I mean, it shatters and splashes, that's not precise at all... Granted, I'm certain that there's nothing that says it doesn't do precision damage, but can you honestly tell me that you'd rule in favor of something like that? Now you're gonna tell me that fireball can deal precision damage only when you occasionally have to make an attack roll when trying to make it go through a small hole, since that's the only time a fireball requires an attack roll.

"I throw the holy water through his heart!" "I backstab him with my acid vial!" Maybe "You throw the acid at his face!" would work but even then you aren't wounding them any more than you would if you had hit them damn near anywhere else.

Never read Pathfinder, what is it? I usually only pull interesting tidbits from other sources. I found the new poison creation rules and the Brew Poison feat (lets you brew magical poisons that use 3rd level or lower spells) to be interesting because I like it when players have a concrete system for making new things, even though I hate the Craft system for 3.5. Also, poison's not for regular use, it's for special use, when you need something tough done, when you know that the DC 36 colossal centipede venom is just gonna get the job done that you needed done or the drow poison for when you know the barbarian/frenzied berserker is gonna "acidentally" kill the guy you intend to question. You don't use it on mooks (because warriors have good fort saves), just lieutenants or better.

Greenish
2010-06-11, 06:55 PM
Yeah, I'm gonna be the one to state that a grenade-like missile probably shouldn't be capable of "precision damage."The splatter doesn't deal precision damage. The solid hit does.

You can also Sneak Attack with Meteor Swarm.

Never read Pathfinder, what is it?It's D&D 3.6 (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/).

Hague
2010-06-11, 07:25 PM
Hrm... Couldn't find a reference to poison use for rogues on that site. Am I missing something?

I buy that you can smash someone with the rock from a meteor swarm. I don't buy that a blunt, fragile vial is capable of penetrating into vital organs, slashing arteries or shattering a brain stem.

The Glyphstone
2010-06-11, 07:28 PM
Hrm... Couldn't find a reference to poison use for rogues on that site. Am I missing something?

I buy that you can smash someone with the rock from a meteor swarm. I don't buy that a blunt, fragile vial is capable of penetrating into vital organs, slashing arteries or shattering a brain stem.

Can you buy, say, being so accurate with said thrown vial that you manage to catch them in their open mouth/corresponding orifice, or land the acid vial directly on top of an open, bleeding wound scored earlier in the fight?

Hague
2010-06-11, 08:19 PM
Not terribly much, no. I just don't see throwing the acid at one place being more effective than throwing it somewhere else, direct hit or no. Also, if you're carrying 30 vials of acid, well... you're one failed saving throw or 10 ft fall from being one sad rogue. But like I said, there's no ruling against it so cheese away with the precision grenades all you'd like :smalltongue:

To recap: Make ninjas better with bonus ambush feats, 1d8 for Sudden Strike, Ki Dodge as an immediate action with progressive concealment bonus increase, and regain Ki pool on a kill/disable with Sudden strike or poison.

Erm... also, one question, wouldn't the concealment granted by Ki Dodge allow you to make a Hide check? What about from Blur?

lesser_minion
2010-06-11, 08:38 PM
She slaughters faceless mooks like it's going out of fashion! She loses because the other girl and the guy in white, neither of whom fights her when she's plowing through the ninjas.

As she never fights Hayate, and losing all of her materia increased her maximum health...

Did you miss the bit where she gets pinned to a car door by a volley of arrows?

Or the repeated stabbings?

If the main character finishes the fight as a pincushion with a sword embedded through her arm, then ninjutsu is not being conserved.

And if you're still not convinced: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9lzeNAj8aiE

Gnaeus
2010-06-11, 08:41 PM
Hrm... Couldn't find a reference to poison use for rogues on that site. Am I missing something?

It is an ACF in the campaign guide.

Eldariel
2010-06-11, 08:53 PM
3.5 also has Poison Use for Rogues; it's in Drow of the Underdark and unfortunately trades Trapfinding away. Still, if you're multiclassing, might as well. Otherwise, naaa.

Curmudgeon
2010-06-11, 09:06 PM
The thing that's always bothered me about poison use is that it only helps when you apply it. You've still got a chance of accidentally poisoning yourself in combat.
Additionally, a character who rolls a natural 1 on an attack roll with a poisoned weapon must make a DC 15 Reflex save or accidentally poison himself with the weapon.

Maho-Tsukai
2010-06-11, 09:26 PM
Wizard's ninjas suck. However, D20 Rokugan(Which is a third party expansion for OA focused around the Rokugan campaign setting) has a ninja class that is slightly better. It still dos not get UMD and still has less skill points then a rogue(4 + Int modifier), but it has actual honest to goodness sneak attack as appose to the lame ability Wizard's ninjas have which I forget the name of. It also gets some nice extra abilities like a scaling version of the dodge feat, a speed bonus, poison use, and basically whats akin to immunity to being flanked and a few other goodies which I forget at the moment. It dose not have any of the Ki powers of the wizard's version though.

However, it's still a slight improvement over Wizard's take on the class and has FAR more support(In the form of D20 Rokugan supplements) then wizard's ninja. There are martial arts moves which are actually not feats which ninja(and other mundane classes in D20 Rokugan) can learn, some of which are almost spell-esc, such as a save or die(literally, as in they fail their save and they are dead) attack among others.

If you like archetypal ninja and hate wizard's class, I highly suggest that you check out D20 Rokugan.

Hague
2010-06-11, 09:57 PM
Eh. That's really silly. I don't like critical failures on attack rolls because it always makes even the most skilled warrior look like a complete idiot and this really seems like a sort of critical failure. The people who wrote this stuff really went out of their way to make poison undesirable (it's evil, it's expensive, it poisons you inadvertently) Probably another silly holdover from back when poison was not well described and people still rolled to save against Breath Weapons and Rods/Staves/Wands. Anyway, one could imply that "applying the poison" as described in Poison Use means you aren't incompetent enough to cut yourself even though you'd never hit yourself on a roll of 1 any other time. Evidently, using poison degrades your mental faculties through fumes, I guess? Really if you don't like critical failures (which are rules variants) then you should feel free to cut that little rule too because it is really stupid. What's next? Imps stinging themselves on accident because they happen to use poison?

JaronK
2010-06-11, 11:11 PM
Eh, I think the Rokugan Ninja is in many ways worse than the CA Ninja, just because it's obviously not a complete class. It's like someone got started on a ninja and then half way through said "eh, screw it." You've got two really cool abilities (Con Mod X5 to run speed, Int to initiative) and then that's pretty much it. Sure, sneak attack is good, but they really get so little.

However, they do get fun weapon proficiencies, so they're great as a dip. That's why I like Rogue 1/Rokugan Ninja 1/Unarmed Swordsage X for making ninjas. It works really well... you have everything you need.

JaronK

Greenish
2010-06-12, 06:55 AM
Did you miss the bit where she gets pinned to a car door by a volley of arrows?And then got up and slaughtered a bunch of enemy ninjas (who didn't get up).

Or the repeated stabbings?Which hardly slowed her down. All the enemy ninjas died when they were stabbed.

If the main character finishes the fight as a pincushion with a sword embedded through her arm, then ninjutsu is not being conserved.When a single ninja in a different costume kills a bloody horde of enemy ninjas in uniforms, that is precisely because of conservation of ninjutsu.

And if you're still not convinced: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9lzeNAj8aiEThat's a better example, if you think super-ninja-cloning-jutsu-thingy counts. Still, they didn't do very well against numerically inferior opponents.

lesser_minion
2010-06-12, 07:06 AM
And then got up and slaughtered a bunch of enemy ninjas (who didn't get up).

And then she fainted from all of the injuries.


Which hardly slowed her down. All the enemy ninjas died when they were stabbed.

Heroes are allowed to collapse a minute or so after being beaten to a pulp. That's not conservation of ninjutsu, it's heroic determination.


That's a better example, if you think super-ninja-cloning-jutsu-thingy counts. Still, they didn't do very well against numerically inferior opponents.

Well, considering how readily the clones slaughtered Yuna's entire group of summons and basically made their opponents run off with their tails clamped firmly between their legs...