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Thurbane
2010-06-10, 05:00 PM
Hey again...looking for tips on an Ibixian (MM III) gish build. Yes, I know RHD are extremely suboptimal, but work with me here.

Goatfolk get:
3 Monstrous Humanoid RHD (BAB +3, Fort +1, Ref +3, Will +3)
+1 LA
+4 STR, +2 CON, -2 INT, -2 WIS
MWP Greataxe, plus all simple weapons
Light armor proficiency
+2 natural AC
Headbutt 1d6

So, the plan is to be a CHA based caster (i.e. Sorcerer, maybe Dread Necro) then get into as many full casting, BAB boosting PrCs as possible (Abj Champion, Ruathar, Spellsword 1, Dragon Slayer 1). Sorc would open up Alter Self, which is pretty nice with a Monstrous Humanoid.

Any advice (other than "dont play a Goatfolk")? All WotC 3.X hardcovers are acceptable with my group's usual exceptions: No ToB, psionics, Incarnum, Eberron specific or FR specific material.

Important note: our group does enforce the multiclassing XP rules.

Critical
2010-06-10, 05:05 PM
How about a Duskblade? The hit to Int does kind of hurt, but otherwise, should be pretty decent.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-06-10, 05:34 PM
Actually I think A suel Arcanamach might work great for this build, something like RHD 3/ Duskblade 2/Hekblade 1( or 2*)/Suel Arcanamach 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Suel Arcanamach +3 (assuming LA buy off)
Duskblade 2 is for full Bab and combat casting as bonus feat
Hexblade is for more BAB and Cha to saves againts spells if you take 2 levels
Abjurant champion 5 to get BAB=CL , if you mantain full BAB class you get at least a 19 CL due Suel Arcanamach having medium BAB (why a class which requires +6 BAB has only 3/4 BAB progression is beyond me)

Thurbane
2010-06-10, 06:27 PM
Nice...is there any way to get Alter Slef into that build? I supposed there is always Eternal Wands...

subject42
2010-06-10, 06:31 PM
It's not exactly a caster, but what about a Binder with the Karsus vestige and an eternal wand of Alter self?

There are a few feats that raise your binder level and would make up for the racial hit die.

Pluto
2010-06-10, 06:31 PM
Nice...is there any way to get Alter Slef into that build? I supposed there is always Eternal Wands...

Arcanamach picks from the Wizard Abjuration, Divination, Illusion and Transmutation lists.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-06-10, 06:36 PM
Like Pluto said, Suel Arcanamach get to select their spells from the schools of Divination, abjuration, illusion and transmutation, so you can get some nice spells and defences (mirror image, displacement, blur, alter self, polymorph wraithstrike and I am sure many others), you can also go up to duskkblade 3 to get arcane channeling; but you will be hurting to get spells to channel.... either way power attack and arcane strike are your bread & butter, offensive wise.

true_shinken
2010-06-10, 07:10 PM
Mystic Ranger into Suel Arcanamach ftw.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-06-10, 07:13 PM
Mystic Ranger into Suel Arcanamach ftw.
Doesn't work, Mystic ranger has it's own spell casting and Suel Arcanamach also has its own spell casting

Thurbane
2010-06-10, 07:20 PM
It's not exactly a caster, but what about a Binder with the Karsus vestige and an eternal wand of Alter self?

There are a few feats that raise your binder level and would make up for the racial hit die.
I am a huge fan of Binders, and hope to play a Hellbred Binder at some point in the near future, but for this particular build I had my heart set on an arcane gish. :smallwink:

_____

...also Goatfolk get some melee bonuses when near another Goatfolk, so I hope to work a cohort into the build. Maybe a Barbarian/Rogue as a flanking buddy?

Dusk Eclipse
2010-06-10, 07:23 PM
I am a huge fan of Binders, and hope to play a Hellbred Binder at some point in the near future, but for this particular build I had my heart set on an arcane gish. :smallwink:

_____

...also Goatfolk get some melee bonuses when near another Goatfolk, so I hope to work a cohort into the build. Maybe a Barbarian/Rogue as a flanking buddy?

Barbarian/rogue might work whith whirling frenzy, other suggestion might be a daring outlaw buddy

Cieyrin
2010-06-10, 08:05 PM
I am a huge fan of Binders, and hope to play a Hellbred Binder at some point in the near future, but for this particular build I had my heart set on an arcane gish. :smallwink:

_____

...also Goatfolk get some melee bonuses when near another Goatfolk, so I hope to work a cohort into the build. Maybe a Barbarian/Rogue as a flanking buddy?

Me, I always liked having twin Goatfolk barbarians but that's just me.

Person_Man
2010-06-11, 09:04 AM
I agree that your best bet is going to be a prestige class with it's own spell list and fast progression half casting. Suel Arcanamach, Chameleon, Knight of the Weave, Ur-Priest, Nar Demonbinder, Apostle of Peace, Sublime Chord, or Blighter.

Also, a few Bard PrC like Stormsinger or Dirgesinger have abilities that are based on ranks of Perform. Since Skills are based on HD + class level, that would be another way to up your power level.

true_shinken
2010-06-11, 10:06 AM
Doesn't work, Mystic ranger has it's own spell casting and Suel Arcanamach also has its own spell casting
And why wouldn't it work? O.o
You are just using Mystic Ranger to get into Arcanamach, since it is the only full-bab class that can get into Arcanamach without multiclassing (you do need to swap Ride for Tumble with Cityscape's web-enhancement, though).
Use wands for ranger spells - a wand chamber in a bow with hunter's mercy on it is always very handy.
Also, check the Arcanamach's handbook (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870638/The_Suel_Arcanamach_Handbook). I was thinking of moving it here, actually...

Adumbration
2010-06-11, 10:18 AM
Play a yak folk instead? Buy some staffs and pretend you're a wizard. :smalltongue:

Dusk Eclipse
2010-06-11, 10:30 AM
And why wouldn't it work? O.o
You are just using Mystic Ranger to get into Arcanamach, since it is the only full-bab class that can get into Arcanamach without multiclassing (you do need to swap Ride for Tumble with Cityscape's web-enhancement, though).
Use wands for ranger spells - a wand chamber in a bow with hunter's mercy on it is always very handy.
Also, check the Arcanamach's handbook (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870638/The_Suel_Arcanamach_Handbook). I was thinking of moving it here, actually...

:smalleek: I misunderstood what you were saying, I thought you meant to advance Mystic Ranger with Suel Arcanamach (as if Suel Arcanamach advanced casting) sorry.

And I didn't realize that you wrote the SA handbook.

Keld Denar
2010-06-11, 02:33 PM
I was thinking of moving it here, actually...

I'd appreciate it if you finished the freakin thing...You are notably delinquent concerning spells higher than 1st level...

Dusk Eclipse
2010-06-11, 02:35 PM
I'd appreciate it if you finished the freakin thing...You are notably delinquent concerning spells higher than 1st level...

+1 to that, I just spend a good deal of the morning reading it and was kinda disapointed you haven't finnished it.

Thurbane
2010-06-11, 08:53 PM
Maybe I'm missing something here, but the Suel Arcanamch seems a little...weak? Only gets spells up to level 5, very limited spells known, not many spells/day, drawn from limited schools? It seems even less appealing than Battle Sorcerer.

For instance (assuming 1 level buyoff) - Goatfolk Monstrous Humanoid 3/ Barbarian 1/Sorcerer 2/Abjurant Champion 5/Spellsword 1/Dragonslayer 1/Ruathar 3/Fatespinner 4 gets BAB +16 and 16th level Sorcerer casting. He doesn't get 9th level spells, but he still gets up to 8th, and 4 attacks at 20th level.

arguskos
2010-06-11, 08:53 PM
Maybe I'm missing something here, but the Suel Arcanamch seems a little...weak? Only gets spells up to level 5, very limited spells known, not many spells/day, drawn from limited schools? It seems even less appealing than Battle Sorcerer.
Take one or two levels, then jump into a full casting PrC like Abj Champ. It's a gish wonderland. Also, the schools are very strong. Transmutation has all manner of amazing stuff, Abjuration is good, Divination is good, etc. It's not that it's weak, but more that at first glance, it doesn't have that WOW factor other classes do.

Thurbane
2010-06-12, 08:46 PM
OK, here's my first draft out to ECL 12 (assuming 1 level buy-off):

Level Class Skills Caster Level BAB Fort Ref Will Feats

1 Monstrous Humanoid 8 0 +1 +0 +2 +2 Power Attack
2 Monstrous Humanoid 2 0 +2 +0 +2 +2
3 Monstrous Humanoid 2 0 +3 +1 +3 +3 Combat Casting
4 Barbarian 4 0 +4 +3 +3 +3
5 Sorcerer 2 1 +4 +3 +3 +5
6 Sorcerer 2 2 +5 +3 +3 +6 Versatile Spellcaster
7 Abjurant Champion 2 3 +6 +3 +3 +8
8 Abjurant Champion 2 4 +7 +3 +3 +9
9 Abjurant Champion 2 5 +8 +4 +4 +9 Rapid Metamagic
10 Abjurant Champion 2 6 +9 +4 +4 +10
11 Abjurant Champion 2 7 (10) +10 +4 +4 +10
12 Spellsword 2 8 (11) +11 +6 +4 +12 Minor Shapeshfit

0
Detect Magic
Dancing Lights
Mage Hand
Open/Close
Read Magic
Resistance
Touch of Fatigue
1
Shield
Blade of Blood
Expeditious Retreat
Nightshield
Ray of Enfeeblement
2
Alter Self
Heroics
Mirror Image
3
Dispel Magic
Evard's Menacing Tentacles
4
Trollshape


...forgive the poor formatting, I always struggle with the forum "table" codes.

Keld Denar
2010-06-12, 11:34 PM
What do you need rapid metamagic for? I'm not seeing any other metamagic in your build.

Also, an idea might be to swap out Menacing Tenticles for Vampiric Touch. Get a Bloodstone or Spellstoring weapon and load it up. PA for a lot, and release the spell. You'll get temp hp equal to weapon damage + spell damage. Its pretty awesome.

For your 2nd 4th level spell, I'm VERY fond of Greater Mirror Image, as soon as you ding. GMI is an IMMEDIATE ACTION casting and pretty much allows you to survive just about all very bad things.

Monstrous Humanoid HD are full BAB...I still think you should look into Suel Arcanamach...one fun thing it does is that combined with AbjChamp5, pretty much makes your spells undispellable, and you also get double Extend spell on Abjurations, and normal Extend on everything else.

Thurbane
2010-06-13, 01:03 AM
Rapid Metamagic was there to make use of the ACs Swift Abjuration class feature (free Quickened spell on low level abjurations), but I might dump it for Extra Rage...the 12 ranks of Spellcraft hurts this build too much.

Trollshape is mainly there for Minor Shapeshift, but yeah, next 4th level would be GMI, and swap out Mirror Image for something else.

Where is Bloodstone weapon from? MIC? Is it cheaper than Spell Storing?

...also, was planning to drop familiar for Spell Shield ACF (Dungeonscape).

Keld Denar
2010-06-13, 01:07 AM
Indeed, MIC page 29. Bloodstone is the same price as Spellstoring, but it only works with Vampiric Touch. On the plus side, it AUTOMATICALLY EMPOWERS EVERY ONE. So yea, load one up, and do 10d6 x1.5 on top of weapon damage.

You trade versatility for power. Spellstoring is still really good for things like Ray of Enfeeblement though.

EDIT: Why do you need Rapid Metamagic to use Abjurant Champion's ability? Its automatic. Its not like an actual metamagic feat or a metamagic rod.

PId6
2010-06-13, 01:09 AM
Rapid Metamagic was there to make use of the ACs Swift Abjuration class feature (free Quickened spell on low level abjurations), but I might dump it for Extra rage...the 12 ranks of Spellcraft hurts this build too much.
I know that it's technically RAW that Swift Abjuration doesn't work with sorcerers, but it's also really really against RAMS and (probably) RAI, not to mention horrendously unfair. I'd put this at the same level of stupidity as Swordsages getting x6 skill points at 1st level, and just ignore it. Or just ask your DM. But any DM that doesn't waive the RAW entirely on this one is just being mean.

Edit: @Keld, it says it acts as if Quicken Spell were applied. So basically they shafted sorcerers by being lazy. :smallmad:

Keld Denar
2010-06-13, 01:20 AM
Hmmmmm, well sheeeeeeeeet. Guess I shouldn't tell the DM I'm running a Sorcadin in then. Oopse!

Thurbane
2010-06-14, 02:54 AM
Hmmmmm, well sheeeeeeeeet. Guess I shouldn't tell the DM I'm running a Sorcadin in then. Oopse!
Yes, it's really poor wording of the ability - like you get the "worst of both worlds"...but a reasonable DM could hand-waive it, I guess.

Also, RAI = rules as intended
RAMS = rules as make sense (?)

PId6
2010-06-14, 03:22 AM
Also, RAI = rules as intended
RAMS = rules as make sense (?)
Yes.

I see no possible reason why they'd meant the ability to only work for wizards, not sorcerers. At my first read through (and I'm sure many can say the same), I didn't even realize that it wouldn't work for spontaneous casters. It's only when you brought it up in the Q&A thread that I reread it and saw why it wouldn't work. I'm almost certain that they used the wording of "as if you had applied the Quicken Spell feat" without realizing the full implications. The RAW really is just stupid on this one.