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aeauseth
2010-06-10, 05:21 PM
I'm currently running a Warlock with Eldritch Glaive. The rules are a bit awkward so I make a summary for reference. I though I would share! Also if any are incorrect please enlighten us all.


The eldritch glaive is weaponlike and spell-like.
Use Ice Axe as a reference. It is has similar properties.
You may need to make a concentration check (DC 16) to avoid attacks of opportunity. This is the standard rule for all invocations & spells (unless specifically stated otherwise). This is a reach weapon, typically foes are at least 10ft away (if not a 5ft step before you invoke should fix that). So rarely do you need to cast defensively or make a concentration check. At level 12 (possibly sooner) your concentration skill should be high enough to cast 1st level invocations defensively with no chance of failure.
If you take damage, you need to make another concentration check (DC 10 + damage dealt) to keep the eldritch glaive active. Same rules as any full-round spell.
Technically the use of eldritch glaive is a full-round invocation (last until just before the start of your next turn). Not a full round attack. But this complicates the application of various rules and feats. So instead think of it as a full-round melee touch attack.
Even if your BAB is less than +6 it still takes 1 full round. This means you cannot move then attack. You can still take a 5' step then attack.
You can use the eldritch glaive while mounted. This resolves your movement issues. However you have to make a Concentration check DC 11 or lose the eldritch glaive. If the mount is running (quadruple speed) your Concentration check is DC 16.
The eldritch glaive is weaponlike and as such you get no damage bonus from power attack, strength, or any other strength related ability that modifies weapon damage. It is NOT a force effect. Think about it, why would you add your strength bonus damage to a touch attack? Same as Ice Axe.
Increasing your strength may improve your to-hit, but not your damage.
If you can increase your BAB bonus (possibly with Divine Power), you may get another attack.
One-Handed? Referring back to Ice Axe, it states "ice axe in your hand", which would suggest a one-handed weapon. The deafult requirement for a Somantic spell is to have 1 hand free. I can find nothing that states Ice Axe or Eldritch Glaive requires two hands. The axe and glaive are just visual effects.
If you enlarge yourself your reach increases (you threaten squares 15-20ft away). Shorten Grip expands your reach/threaten to 5-20ft when large. Damage doens't change based on the eldritch glaive's size.
Strongarm bracers don't help. The assumption is that the eldritch glaive is appropriate for your size. Otherwise you could just create a collosial glaive and take the minus to hit, that's just wrong.
Any modifications to the eldritch glaive works on all attacks. For example a +6/+1 BAB using Mortalbane does an extra 2d6 damage for both attack rolls (using just 1 daily use of Mortalbane). If using Empower Spell-Like Ability then both attack rolls are empowered. Same holds true for an eldritch essence, the extra damage/effect affects all targets using a single charge or daily use. This also holds true for any attacks of opportunity you take (remember the eldritch glaive remains in effect until the start of your next turn). The weaponlike rules would seem to contradict this, but the eldritch glaive rules specifically state that any eldritch essence applies to all attacks, so it would follow that any other bonus would also be applied to all attacks. This would seem to override weaponlike rules in this particular case.
Metamagic rods, Circlet of rapid spellcasting, or any other magic item that modifies a spell do not work with invocations or eldritch blast/glaive. Although Eldritch Rod may be of some use.
You cannot be disarmed of the eldritch glaive nor can it be sundered. Similar to Ice Axe.
You can't use the eldritch glaive to disarm a foe since that would be a melee attack.
You can't trip a foe with an eldritch glaive. In order to trip with a weapon it must specifically state so in the weapon description. You can't trip with a glaive either.
The eldrtich glaive can not be enchanted. You can't put a gem in the weapon. Technically it is still an invocation, not a weapon. Magical oils that enhance weapons will not work. Any spells that enhance weapons don't work either.
Increasing the damage of eldritch glaive is tricky. In general look for anything that specifically works with eldritch blast (Warlock's scepter) or spell-like abililities (Mortalbane). Some additional items to look at are Gauntlets of Eldritch Energy, Gloves of Eldritch Admixture, Chausuble of Fell Power, or take a few levels of the Hellfire Warlock prestige class.
Anything that modifies your eldritch blast will modify the eldritch glaive in the same way. For example Gloves of Eldritch Admixture.
Any ability that gives an extra attack, such as haste should work with eldritch glaive normally. This isn't specifically stated in the rules, however since it is based on BAB and multiple attacks, it would seem to follow that extra attacks are possible.
Any effect that reduces you to a single standard (such as slow) means you can not use eldritch glaive at all.
This is not a force effect and as such has a 50% miss chance on incorporeal creatures.
Quicken_Spell-Like_Ability turns this full round invocation into a free action. Eldritch glaive is a 1st level spell-like ability (unless modified by an eldritch essence). This effectively gives you two full attacks with your eldritch glaive.
Weapon Finesse should work with eldritch glaive since the glaive is weightless (thus by definition a light weapon). Also weaponlike specifically states you can use Weapon Finesse.
Combat Expertise requires an attack action and thus is not usable in combination with eldritch glaive.
Spring Attack does not work with eldritch glaive.
You can't Fight Defensively with an eldritch glaive.
You can't ready an action with the intent to use eldritch glaive. You can't cast eldritch glaive then ready an action.
See weaponlike for information about feats.

Ernir
2010-06-10, 05:47 PM
RAW, I can see some issues...

Use Ice Axe as a reference. It is has similar properties.
Ice Axe is a different thing altogether, and whatever that spell description says does nothing about Eldritch Glaive.

Technically the use of eldritch glaive is a full-round invocation (last until just before the start of your next turn). Not a full round attack. But this complicates the application of various rules and feats. So instead think of it as a full-round melee touch attack.

Why would you think about it like that? It is a full round action to invoke, and as part of invoking that you may make as many attacks as your base attack bonus allows. (Not the same as a full attack, most notably, stuff like Haste doesn't add more Eldritch Glaive attacks).


The eldritch glaive is weaponlike and as such you get no damage bonus from power attack, strength, or any other strength related ability that modifies weapon damage. It is NOT a force effect. Think about it, why would you add your strength bonus damage to a touch attack? Same as Ice Axe.
The specific text of Eldritch Glaive, which says you can use it as if you were using a reach weapon (Glaive) overrides the generic text of strength/power attack/stuff not being added to the damage of weaponlikes.

One-Handed? Referring back to Ice Axe, it states "ice axe in your hand", which would suggest a one-handed weapon. The deafult requirement for a Somantic spell is to have 1 hand free. I can find nothing that states Ice Axe or Eldritch Glaive requires two hands. The axe and glaive are just visual effects.
Eldritch Glaive is described as manifesting physically as a glaive. Glaives are held in both hands.
Whatever Ice Axe has to say is not relevant.

Weapon Finesse should work with eldritch glaive since the glaive is weightless (thus by definition a light weapon). Also weaponlike specifically states you can use Weapon Finesse.
Weight has nothing to do with whether a D&D 3.5 weapon is light, a D&D weapon is a light weapon if it says it is a light weapon. A glaive is not a light weapon.

You cannot be disarmed of the eldritch glaive nor can it be sundered. Similar to Ice Axe.
It's a physical glaive, it can be. And again, Ice Axe has nothing to do with this.


Sorry if I sound confrontational, but I read the rules very differently from you, here...

Kaiyanwang
2010-06-10, 05:49 PM
I guess you should be able to add Sneak Attack to EG.. I want to build a tiefling Rogue // Warlock so I was wondering this.

Pechvarry
2010-06-10, 05:54 PM
You can't trip a foe with an eldritch glaive. In order to trip with a weapon it must specifically state so in the weapon description. You can't trip with a glaive either.

You're probably aware of this (since you're actually saying "trip with a weapon") but someone wielding an eldritch glaive could still make a trip action -- at least against opponents in their natural reach. Even someone dual wielding shields for some strange reason can make trip attempts despite shields being listed as weapons you can't trip with. It just means you're making an unarmed touch attack (kick, trip someone with a headbutt?, etc) and thus, don't get the "trip with weapon" benefits -- namely, the ability to avoid the counter-trip, but also the attack of opportunity associated with unarmed attacks. This latter benefit is moot for someone with improved trip, though.

aeauseth
2010-06-10, 06:05 PM
You're probably aware of this (since you're actually saying "trip with a weapon") but someone wielding an eldritch glaive could still make a trip action -- at least against opponents in their natural reach. Even someone dual wielding shields for some strange reason can make trip attempts despite shields being listed as weapons you can't trip with. It just means you're making an unarmed touch attack (kick, trip someone with a headbutt?, etc) and thus, don't get the "trip with weapon" benefits -- namely, the ability to avoid the counter-trip, but also the attack of opportunity associated with unarmed attacks. This latter benefit is moot for someone with improved trip, though.

According to the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#Trip) you can only Trip as an unarmed melee attack or with specific weapons. Notice spiked chain specifcally states you can trip with it.

aeauseth
2010-06-10, 06:15 PM
Let's define "Weaponlike" as:

Any spell that requires an attack roll and deals damage functions as a weapon in certain respects, whether the spell deals normal hit point damage, nonlethal damage, ability damage, or energy drain. Such spells can threaten critical hits, can be used in sneak attacks, and can be used with favored enemy damage bonuses. You can even use a number of combat-enhancing feats from the Playerís Handbook to improve the effectiveness of weaponlike spells.

All such spells deal damage as spells, not weapons, so Strength modifiers to damage and magical effects that increase weapon damage (such as the bardís inspire courage ability and the prayer spell) donít increase damage from a weaponlike spell. Likewise, a weaponlike spell that deals normal damage canít be used to deal nonlethal damage or vice versa (except when modified by the Nonlethal Substitution feat or in accordance with the specific regulations of a nonlethal spell duel).

I'm pretty sure Eldritch Glaive would fall under this description, even though the invocation doesn't specifically state it is weaponlike.

Ernir appears to be suggesting that Eldritch Glaive is NOT weaponlike, which would lead to the numerious disagreements on EG rules.

olentu
2010-06-10, 06:26 PM
Let's define "Weaponlike" as:

Any spell that requires an attack roll and deals damage functions as a weapon in certain respects, whether the spell deals normal hit point damage, nonlethal damage, ability damage, or energy drain. Such spells can threaten critical hits, can be used in sneak attacks, and can be used with favored enemy damage bonuses. You can even use a number of combat-enhancing feats from the Playerís Handbook to improve the effectiveness of weaponlike spells.

All such spells deal damage as spells, not weapons, so Strength modifiers to damage and magical effects that increase weapon damage (such as the bardís inspire courage ability and the prayer spell) donít increase damage from a weaponlike spell. Likewise, a weaponlike spell that deals normal damage canít be used to deal nonlethal damage or vice versa (except when modified by the Nonlethal Substitution feat or in accordance with the specific regulations of a nonlethal spell duel).

I'm pretty sure Eldritch Glaive would fall under this description, even though the invocation doesn't specifically state it is weaponlike.

Ernir appears to be suggesting that Eldritch Glaive is NOT weaponlike, which would lead to the numerious disagreements on EG rules.

It seems more to me that it is being said that the particulars of the ice axe spell do not define general rules for weaponlike spells.

true_shinken
2010-06-10, 07:26 PM
Ice Axe is a different thing altogether, and whatever that spell description says does nothing about Eldritch Glaive.
This I have to agree with. I mean, Ice Axe? What the hell? If you are looking for a similar effect at least use Flame Blade, it's RAW and all... if not that similar.



Why would you think about it like that? It is a full round action to invoke, and as part of invoking that you may make as many attacks as your base attack bonus allows. (Not the same as a full attack, most notably, stuff like Haste doesn't add more Eldritch Glaive attacks).
That I think is intended to work by RAI even if it doesn't by RAW. It's not like glaivelocks are ridiculously powerful (even with Hellfire foolishness they can only hit things with a stick; a glowing, hellfire stick, but still a stick); I allow glaivelocks to get extra attacks from Haste in my game.
Also, RAW you'd get an extra attack from Snake's Swiftness.



The specific text of Eldritch Glaive, which says you can use it as if you were using a reach weapon (Glaive) overrides the generic text of strength/power attack/stuff not being added to the damage of weaponlikes.

Eldritch Glaive is described as manifesting physically as a glaive. Glaives are held in both hands.
Whatever Ice Axe has to say is not relevant.
Now you are wrong, Ernir. Look:
* Your eldritch blast takes on physical substance, appearing similar to a glaive. It just looks like a glaive, that's all.
* As a full-round action, you can make a single melee touch attack as if wielding a reach weapon. As if wielding a reach weapon. You are not wielding a reach weapon, you are using a spell like abilities. This sentence only says you double your natural reach and that's about it.


Weight has nothing to do with whether a D&D 3.5 weapon is light, a D&D weapon is a light weapon if it says it is a light weapon. A glaive is not a light weapon.

It's a physical glaive, it can be. And again, Ice Axe has nothing to do with this.
Thing is, it is not a glaive. It is a weapon-like touch attack. Weapon Focus (glaive) does not apply to it, for example. Eldritch Glaive is not like other 'weapon creating' magical effects. Flame Blade, for example, explicitly states it works like a scimitar and which feats apply to it. Eldritch Glaive does not - it simply says it looks like a glaive and doubles your natural reach.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-06-10, 09:40 PM
Now you are wrong, Ernir. Look:
* Your eldritch blast takes on physical substance, appearing similar to a glaive. It just looks like a glaive, that's all.
* As a full-round action, you can make a single melee touch attack as if wielding a reach weapon. As if wielding a reach weapon. You are not wielding a reach weapon, you are using a spell like abilities. This sentence only says you double your natural reach and that's about it.Yes, you are using a Spell-Like Ability to deliver a touch attack as though it were being used as a Weapon of Reach. Meaning you can hit 10', but not 5'. It isn't Eldritch Spiked Chain.

However, because it is a spell-like ability which delivers a touch attack, it can be finessed.


Thing is, it is not a glaive. It is a weapon-like touch attack. Weapon Focus (glaive) does not apply to it, for example. Eldritch Glaive is not like other 'weapon creating' magical effects. Flame Blade, for example, explicitly states it works like a scimitar and which feats apply to it. Eldritch Glaive does not - it simply says it looks like a glaive and doubles your natural reach.

The Invocation description explicitly states that all feats which apply to Glaive also apply to Eldritch Glaive. This arguably means you CAN Power Attack with it, although there are many people who say you cannot. This is a long-debated topic, so don't expect to get a single answer, just ask your GM.

To recap:

1) Using Eldritch Glaive requires a full-round action. This grants you a touch attack on every iterative attack you have. Thus, if you have an attack of +6/+1, you would make two attacks, one at +6, the other at +1.

2) Eldritch Glaive deals your Eldritch Blast damage on a successful blow

3) Eldritch Glaive is considered to be a two-handed weapon

4) Eldritch Glaive cannot be disarmed, nor may it be sundered. It is not a physical glaive, it is a glaive-shaped blade of coherent energy

5) Eldritch Glaive is nothing like Ice Axe. Do not refer to or use any wording from that spell to arbitrate the effects of an Eldritch Glaive.

6) Eldritch Glaive only lasts one round. you will need to use the invocation the next round if you wish to use it.

Pechvarry
2010-06-10, 10:32 PM
According to the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#Trip) you can only Trip as an unarmed melee attack or with specific weapons. Notice spiked chain specifcally states you can trip with it.

Right, and you can always perform an unarmed strike, despite being armed. Or, at least, there's no rule that states you cannot be carrying a weapon. And as it says in the monk section, an unarmed attack can be a headbutt, a kick, elbow, etc. None of this changes the moment you pick up a sword (and such binary limits to when you can and cannot attack unarmed are horribly video-game-y).

But that's not the topic at hand. I think you're extrapolating a lot from a limited eldritch glaive text, but I think I agree with most or all of it. I'll probably keep this list handy in case I pick it up on my warlock.

true_shinken
2010-06-10, 11:15 PM
Right, and you can always perform an unarmed strike, despite being armed. Or, at least, there's no rule that states you cannot be carrying a weapon. And as it says in the monk section, an unarmed attack can be a headbutt, a kick, elbow, etc. None of this changes the moment you pick up a sword (and such binary limits to when you can and cannot attack unarmed are horribly video-game-y).
You do realize the monk and only the monk per RAW can perform unarmed strikes with headbutts, kicks and the like, right?



The Invocation description explicitly states that all feats which apply to Glaive also apply to Eldritch Glaive.

Erm, no it does not. Read it again.

olentu
2010-06-10, 11:23 PM
You do realize the monk and only the monk per RAW can perform unarmed strikes with headbutts, kicks and the like, right?


This is backwards. Monks say "A monkís attacks may be with either fist interchangeably or even from elbows, knees, and feet." and so monks are specifically allowed only these body parts for unarmed strikes. On the other hand the unarmed strike description says "which may be a punch, kick, head butt, or other type of attack." and thus allows for similar actions not listed to possibly be used depending on DM interpretation of types of actions.

aeauseth
2010-06-11, 03:22 PM
Ice Axe is a different thing altogether, and whatever that spell description says does nothing about Eldritch Glaive.

While I agree that Ice Axe and Eldritch Glaive are different spells, they have many similarities.

You are automatically considered proficient with the ice axe, same for Eldritch Glaive.

Attacks with the ice axe are melee touch attacks, same for Eldritch Glaive.

You cannot be disarmed of the ice axe nor can it be sundered. Eldritch Glaive RAW is silent on this issue, but seems to be a reasonable rule extension.

Since the axe is virtually weightless, your Strength modifier does not apply on damage rolls. This is a simple restate of the Weaponlike summary I gave above.

If your base attack bonus is high enough to allow for multiple attacks in a round, you can make them with the ice axe, same as Eldritch Glaive.

If you choose to hold something other than the ice axe in your hand or use the hand in some other way, the ice axe vanishes until the hand is empty again. Eldritch Glaive RAW is silent on this issue, but seems to be a reasonalbe rule extension. This would also suggest the Ice Axe is one handed, although not specifically stated. It is more difficult to extend this one handed theory to the Eldritch Glaive, neither weapon is real (just visual effects). Technically an invocation (somantic) only requires one hand to be free, so if Eldritch Glaive is two handed, shouldn't it specifically state so?

So can you see why referenced Ice Axe to extend the rules of Eldritch Galive? The only significant difference seems to be the reach ability of the Eldritch Glaive.

Flame Blade is also similar but the spell description of Ice Axe provides more details as to how these weaponlike spells/invocations function.