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Broccoli21
2010-06-10, 07:13 PM
I am just rather frustrated with the inability to make combat interesting.

rant:
Whenever I run a game, my players fall into this rhythm of "I hit and do x damage", or "I get suck a critical for y damage". I try to do cool stuff like describing the situation in detail as well, such as "the orc sinks his serrated blade into your arm, and rips it out with inhuman ferocity". I am running GURPS as well, so combat is less abstract (that arm would most likely be severed, and there are rules for that). However, I can't seem to get my players to do interesting things. They just burst into rooms and kill everything in sight with guns :smallannoyed:. Is there anything i am doing wrong?

Anyways, does anyone have any suggestions for spicing encounters up a bit?

p.s. I am running a GURPS 4th ed sci-fi game, so melee combat is rather obsolete.

Thajocoth
2010-06-10, 07:18 PM
Use the terrain. If the terrain's got moving parts, and advantageous positions, it gives the PCs more reason to move around and be tactical.

true_shinken
2010-06-10, 07:28 PM
Cover is very important for ranged sci-fi combat.
Just watch Star Wars or play Mass Effect and see.

Kaun
2010-06-10, 07:30 PM
Have the things they are fighting use more detailed strat's rather then just mindless blasting.

All so having your mobs yelling insults and shouting comands to each other can work well.

Makes the pc's feel like they are doing more then just throwing numbers at other numbers.

awa
2010-06-10, 07:35 PM
multiple sides to a conflict add another dimension to the fight

oxybe
2010-06-10, 07:37 PM
the same answer i give when asked this question about D&D: give them something interesting to do.

whether the 30x30 room is filled with generic stormtroopers or orc soldiers, a plain boring room will not have the PCs do interesting things.

-have them fight over a large generator, where guys pushed in are crushed into an atom
-the BBEG has fled from his base and is now flooding it with poisonous gas. while there is a computer console to disable it the leftover security bots are starting to swarm the area.
-a multi-part enemy! focus on the glowy part of the giant robot's chest cavity to deactivate the shielding barrier around it's head (and thus the main computer controlling it)! hit the weak point for massive damage!
-regenerating nanites have escaped and are running amok on the alien spaceship creating space zombies! only space-fire will solve this problem as space-bullets won't harm them.
-oh noes! the gibs left over from the stormtroopers and the orc warriors all merge together to form some hideous eldrich abomination from beyond the stars! BLARRRAGAGLE!!

throw them a curve ball.

Runeclaw
2010-06-10, 07:41 PM
Terrain, terrain, terrain. Cover. Areas of light and dark.

If at all possible, moving terrain. Shifting cover. Changing light conditions.

Anything you can do that makes movement and positioning critical - so meleers don't just charge up and and then stand there and full-attack and everyone else doesn't just stand where they are and fire/cast

Anything that makes people be making tumble, balance, jump, etc checks (even swim!) in order to gain advantage

A variety of opponents with different types of attacks, when possible

More enemies arriving a few turns into combat to shake things up

Traps. Traps are kinda dull when encountered outside of combat. Stumbling into one (or more) in the middle of a fight is another matter.

Talon Sky
2010-06-10, 08:09 PM
Have them fight inside of a giant machine. PC's and monsters all battling on giant, moving cogs while blades and flatting hammers slam down on conveyor belts around them should get the players thinking.

AtopTheMountain
2010-06-10, 08:18 PM
If you don't like the "I hit and do x damage" part, try using Tome of Battle. I've found it really gives the melee types so many more options in combat, and it can be used for enemies too to some extent.

Yakk
2010-06-10, 10:10 PM
So what is the most effective weapon? A point-and-kill gun?

Then clearly your players will be using point-and-kill guns to great effect.

Now, this is sci-fi. So you can make up guns that are more interesting.

Force blasters that push targets. Shields that deflect energy weapon fire. Point-defence turrents that intercept projectile weapons. Armor suits that have a huge cable on their back that needs to be severed to take them out. Automated defences that are practically undefeatable, unless you hack them. Static portable blast shields that provide directional cover. Sonic weapons that cause pain without killing.

Another classic option is to give bonuses for description. You get a +1 bonus to your attack role per "thing" in the description that is not a repeat, up to +3.

You also need to be careful that you aren't making "I shoot it" the only real decent chance. It is very tempting to take someone who goes "I shoot the wires over the stormtroopers, and cause wires to hit them" into a crap-shoot: penalties to hit, not being that effective after you hit, etc. The effectiveness of the "I try a trick" is really heavily in the hands of the GM -- while the effectiveness of "I shoot the target with a big gun" is in the hands of the game system.

If you are going extremely cinematic, you could steal tricks from games that emulate that. Hand out plot coupons if you take out targets in fun and interesting ways, that can be cashed in to override your plot. Ie, they can burn a plot coupon to cause an airlock to be next to your bad guys, then shoot it and cause them to be sucked out, and the emergency airlock doors to slam shut behind them.

You could then offer them a complication in exchange for not having to expend the plot coupon (the doors are jammed on a crate!)

Ellye
2010-06-10, 10:13 PM
Use different battle models.
Make them battle in a high bridge, during a very windy weather.
Make them battle in a room with a ton of traps that can hurt friend or foe alike.
Make them battle an enemy that has hostages.
Make them battle against an enemy that's way too strong for them to defeat in direct combat, but that can be outsmarted.

Also, don't play your battle scenes sitting around a table. At least for my group, we find that battle scenes are a lot more interesting when do a little bit of "live action" after each combat round to visually represent what just happened.

valadil
2010-06-10, 10:44 PM
Nthing terrain. If you give them a wide open field with line of sight, they're gonna use it. Deny them the ability to make shots easily. Here are some ideas:

Corner. When the enemies see the PCs they duck behind a corner and ready attacks. Whomever turns the corner first is going to get shot a whole bunch of times.

Sniper. Snipers are awesome, especially if they out range the PCs. However lone snipers are boring. What you need to do is snipe into combat. Start up a normal fight. It can even be on a plain field (or grassy knoll if you're into foreshadowing). After a couple rounds have the sniper take a shot. You players will spend time trying to figure out where it came from and take cover against that area, all while in the middle of another fight. Maybe they'll send someone after the sniper, but getting split up is the path of TPK.

Dynamic terrain. Put them in an area that moves. You have guns, which means you probably have cars (or boats or horse drawn carriages). Have the enemies do a drive by attack. Let the PCs find another vehicle and chase the enemies. Chasing a boat and dropping down from a bridge makes for a damn awesome scene.

erikun
2010-06-10, 11:00 PM
The best way to make your players do something interesting is to make your NPCs do something interesting. No, I don't mean describe your NPCs doing something interesting - I mean making your NPCs do something interesting.

Part of this can be terrain, part of it can be tactics, and part of it can just be the fight itself. Have the archers use cover scattered about. Have some of the opponents break off and try to flank. Have your orcs use the Jump or Tumble skills to get around the battlefield. Lead the attack with javelins, or have the enemy front line retreat behind the high AC troops. If the enemy begins every fight with charge + full attack, then expect your players to begin every fight with charge + full attack as well.

nedz
2010-06-11, 08:12 AM
+1 for Terrain
+1 for Tactics - have the enemy do something unexpected. Even a horde of goblins can be interesting if deployed correctly.
Also variety, use different kind of opponents with a mix of threats.

valadil
2010-06-11, 08:48 AM
+1 for Terrain
+1 for Tactics - have the enemy do something unexpected. Even a horde of goblins can be interesting if deployed correctly.
Also variety, use different kind of opponents with a mix of threats.

+1 more for the combination of terrain and tactics.

Sorry I forgot to include this last night. My posts get less and less coherent the later I type.

Make some terrain. Don't worry about making it interesting yet. Just make sure there's some stuff there like trees and boulders, or if you're underground tunnels and stalactites. Then put your enemies in that terrain. Let the enemies position themselves tactically. Basically you want to give the enemies first choice in tactical positioning. Think about it like they were your PCs. If you controlled a full party and had to set up an ambush, how would you do it? Are there any terrain features you can take advantage of. Give the NCPs an hour to plan this and then set them up.

Grogmir
2010-06-11, 09:23 AM
+1 for Terrain

Really this but I'll touch on something that hasn't been mentioned.

Stunts!! STUNTS! STTTTTUNNNNNNTS!!!!

So many systems make it harder for for the characters to do interesting actions. STOP!

My players know that when they try and jump onto large monster, climb it and then shoot it in the head
a) They'll have a very decent chance to succed and b) they'll be rewarded extra damage dice, pluses to attack etc - for doing so.

It got to the stage where it holds up op our battles - as they are always trying to do crazy things - still better than the usual I charge - 8 thats eh 15 - No 16! do I hit? that used to be the main line of combat.

Happy Rollin'

nedz
2010-06-11, 11:47 AM
+1 more for the combination of terrain and tactics.

Sorry I forgot to include this last night. My posts get less and less coherent the later I type.

Make some terrain. Don't worry about making it interesting yet. Just make sure there's some stuff there like trees and boulders, or if you're underground tunnels and stalactites. Then put your enemies in that terrain. Let the enemies position themselves tactically. Basically you want to give the enemies first choice in tactical positioning. Think about it like they were your PCs. If you controlled a full party and had to set up an ambush, how would you do it? Are there any terrain features you can take advantage of. Give the NCPs an hour to plan this and then set them up.

Basically this is all good, but you might want to vary the types of engagement from ambushes. You can have:
Meeting engagemments - where the two sides are moving relative to each other.
Persuits - either side can persue the others
Ambushes(already mentioned) - but with pro-active players they should be able to ambush sometimes.
Night Attacks, when the players are resting.

Scouting should be essential, for both sides.

You can have flying encounters, or burrowing or swimming or a combination.

You can have engagements on the side of a hill, or cliff, or ravine.

There are a vast array of options, try them all out.

Curmudgeon
2010-06-11, 12:07 PM
Have the enemies use a language that isn't Common to yell commands and info to each other. Give that one PC who speaks Sylvan (for instance) a useful advantage. Have notes with the enemy dialog ready to pass to that PC (if the PC succeeds on Listen checks) so the other players aren't tempted to use knowledge their characters shouldn't have.

Skill tricks. These are excellent for enemies to use against the PCs. I recommend Acrobatic Backstab and Corner Perch.

A combination of ranged attacks and traps. Give the melee PCs an incentive to run toward the snipers, and put camouflaged pit traps on their approach route.

fusilier
2010-06-11, 07:40 PM
I second the use of terrain. In range combat hiding behind crates, boxes, upturned tables, etc. can force one side to have to maneuver into a better position. Make the rooms interesting. Warehouses/storerooms can be fun. Engine shops, etc.

However, to a certain extent range combat typically comes down to little more than finding a position and shooting it out with the enemy. I've run games where the PCs were overwhelmed and had to fight a retreating battle -- which they handled pretty well.

Also, how you set up the fight can make a difference, and you can surprise the players. Sometimes people who are shot and go down, aren't that badly hurt and can get back up later. (I did this once in a fairly complicated situation, and nearly killed one of my PCs!)

Finally -- Grenades! They can spice things up. :-)

awa
2010-06-12, 12:39 AM
allow the pcs to use terrain for their advantage dms often rember to let the badguys get cover but its much rarer to give the pcs the opportunity to do the same

Broccoli21
2010-06-12, 09:50 PM
Great ideas guys!

One thing though:
What would be some interesting tactics, flanking and cover aside? Ambushes tend to annoy players and just increase lethality. What are some tactics that won't kill the players off in a heartbeat, but still will be interesting (guns do a ton of damage)

valadil
2010-06-12, 09:58 PM
Great ideas guys!

One thing though:
What would be some interesting tactics, flanking and cover aside? Ambushes tend to annoy players and just increase lethality. What are some tactics that won't kill the players off in a heartbeat, but still will be interesting (guns do a ton of damage)

Make the players divide themselves up. The best way to do this is with enemies who are divided up (see my previous idea about a sniper). Put some thugs on the ground and some others on the roof. Make the roof ones the bigger threats. Somebody has to go deal with those, but you also don't want to let the other guys wail on you while climbing.

I also recommend using enemies that synergize well. I'll give an example in 4e because that's what I'm using. I see a lot of monsters that do extra damage when the PCs have a certain debuff. Some enemies do well against prone PCs. Others get a sneak attack like effect when they have combat advantage. As such, I try and use NPCs the knock PCs prone or daze (which grants CA) when their teammates can take advantage of it.

Lin Bayaseda
2010-06-12, 10:38 PM
As others said, Terrain and Tactics - put them together.

- Pits and ravines. Nothing says "I love you" like an Ogre bull-rushing your Wizard down a 60' drop.
- Trees. Trivial, but provide cover.
- Rock formations. Cover, and higher ground for combat advantage.
- Hedges and bushes. Provide concealment.
- Chokepoints. If the only way to get to the Evil High Priest is through a narrow and well-guarded bridge, the PCs have to strategize rather than "I advance 30' and attack".
- Buildings. All sorts. Archers on the rooftops are a nice touch.
- Traps in the middle of the battlefield. Maybe that Evil High Priest was expecting you to charge him, which is why he carefully placed that tripwire along the convenient charging path.
- Moving platforms over a lake of molten lava are probably over the top, but worked for George Lucas.

fusilier
2010-06-13, 05:42 AM
Great ideas guys!

One thing though:
What would be some interesting tactics, flanking and cover aside? Ambushes tend to annoy players and just increase lethality. What are some tactics that won't kill the players off in a heartbeat, but still will be interesting (guns do a ton of damage)

A running battle is probably the easiest to pull off. Once the enemy is being overwhelmed, have some of them start retreating. They can retreat down a hallway, street, from room-to-room, whatever. This makes one battle a series of shorter fast-pace battles, and allows the physical situation (cover, terrain) to change. Reinforcements can show up, and prepared fall back positions can be utilized.

If you want to keep PCs and NPCs in battle longer, then you may need to start doling out armor to counter the massive amount of damage that guns do, increase the numbers on either side, or some combination of each (e.g. PCs have armor, but there are more NPCs to fight).

Besides flanking and cover, the only other tactics I can think of are feints. Trying to trick your opponent into doing something that's ultimately bad for them. For example, if your opponent is in a strong defensive position, feigning a rout, may get his troops out of that position, where they can be attacked. But it really depends upon the creativity of your players. Even flanking and cover can involve some creativity to pull off.

Try thinking about ways to negate the advantage of firepower. Then make sure there are options to negate that negation. Terrain is probably the easiest way to think about this. The defender could be in armored bunker, or simply have enough crates piled in front of him, that a frontal assault is suicide. Perhaps there is a way to turn the position (i.e. maneuver around it so that you attack from behind/flank where it isn't protected)? Maybe cover fire can be laid down so someone can get close enough with a grenade? Is there a gangway one-level up that overlooks the enemy position? etc., etc.

Try to make it obvious that simply shooting isn't going to defeat the enemy. But also don't make it totally suicidal (i.e. give the attackers some cover too that they can use while they make their plans).

Lycar
2010-06-13, 09:34 AM
- Trees. Trivial, but provide cover.

Don't forget: If firearms are involved, trees are concealment, not cover! :smallwink:

Should not forget about that if sufficient firepower is available to either side.

A:'Cute. Ducking behind that corner won't save you.:smallamused:'
B:'You can't shoot around the corner!:smallconfused:'
A:'Who said around the corner? Through the corner.:smallbiggrin:'

Lycar