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AtopTheMountain
2010-06-10, 08:36 PM
I've heard of the "1d2 Crusader" as a munchkin build using Crusader, and it's banned on the Test of Spite, but what is it? What is the build, how does whatever kind of "trick" it uses work, and how is it broken?

drengnikrafe
2010-06-10, 08:39 PM
Without any of the nitty gritty stuff (because I can't remember it, and somebody else will explain it) you play a character that gets and exploding die on maximum damage rolled, but rerolls all 1s, leading to you only being able to roll a 2, and being able to roll for extra damage any time you get that 2. This leads to infinite damage.

golentan
2010-06-10, 08:42 PM
Build a crusader, using a weapon that deals 1d2 damage. Use the Stance Aura of Chaos, and a feat that lets you reroll 1s. You now deal infinite damage (you only roll 2s, and each 2 causes you to reroll).

Ninja'ed almost certainly.

Runestar
2010-06-10, 08:43 PM
Crusader has this 6th lv stance called aura of chaos which lets you roll again for damage if you roll the max (eg: if you roll an 8 for a longsword attack, you may roll the d8 again and add the extra damage to your total, rerolling again if you got the maximum).

Imbued healing (complete champion) with luck domain lets the player treat any roll of 1 on a damage roll as 2.

Small shurikens deal 1d2 damage.

So if you roll 1d2 and get a 2, you roll again. If you roll a 1, it is treated as though you had rolled a 2.

Resulting in infinite damage. :smalleek:

Flickerdart
2010-06-10, 08:45 PM
The funny part comes when you realize that rerolling isn't optional for some or all ways of getting that 1 upgraded - you can never stop the loop.

PId6
2010-06-10, 08:48 PM
The funny part comes when you realize that rerolling isn't optional for some or all ways of getting that 1 upgraded - you can never stop the loop.
Celerity -> Enlarge Person?

AstralFire
2010-06-10, 08:50 PM
The funny part comes when you realize that rerolling isn't optional for some or all ways of getting that 1 upgraded - you can never stop the loop.

I sort of view it as Xeno's Paradox. You essentially don't have to roll damage, you know it hits and you know it worked, but the damage is literally infinite.

AtopTheMountain
2010-06-10, 09:12 PM
That... :smalleek: That is one of the most messed up melee tricks I've seen.
...
What would likely happen if I tried to get away with this in-game?

AstralFire
2010-06-10, 09:13 PM
That... :smalleek: That is one of the most messed up melee tricks I've seen.
...
What would likely happen if I tried to get away with this in-game?

Any DM would rightfully smack you or create contrived situations where it is impossible or very to get in melee reach.

Hunter Noventa
2010-06-10, 09:14 PM
That... :smalleek: That is one of the most messed up melee tricks I've seen.
...
What would likely happen if I tried to get away with this in-game?

Hide it until you're tired of the campaign, then declare "I tire of this world and all who reside in it" and punch the earth for infinite damage.

Eloi
2010-06-10, 09:14 PM
That... :smalleek: That is one of the most messed up melee tricks I've seen.
...
What would likely happen if I tried to get away with this in-game?

I would make you roll it until you get bored and only count the first.

Wolf Warhead
2010-06-10, 09:17 PM
That... :smalleek: That is one of the most messed up melee tricks I've seen.
...
What would likely happen if I tried to get away with this in-game?

A smart DM'd say that it only counts when you actually ROLL a 2, not roll a 1 and COUNT it as 2.

For Valor
2010-06-10, 09:19 PM
Wait, so max rolls let you add a new roll to your result, but what feature gives you a re-roll of the low rolls?

Is it Imbued Healing w/the Luck Domain? Or is there something more flexible?

druid91
2010-06-10, 09:27 PM
If you try to pull that off in a game expect the d20 of death to smite you in the forehead.

Mongoose87
2010-06-10, 09:33 PM
The funny part comes when you realize that rerolling isn't optional for some or all ways of getting that 1 upgraded - you can never stop the loop.

It's not like you're actually being physically forced to keep rolling.

golentan
2010-06-10, 09:34 PM
Crusader has this 6th lv stance called aura of chaos which lets you roll again for damage if you roll the max (eg: if you roll an 8 for a longsword attack, you may roll the d8 again and add the extra damage to your total, rerolling again if you got the maximum).

Imbued healing (complete champion) with luck domain lets the player treat any roll of 1 on a damage roll as 2.

Small shurikens deal 1d2 damage.

So if you roll 1d2 and get a 2, you roll again. If you roll a 1, it is treated as though you had rolled a 2.

Resulting in infinite damage. :smalleek:

You can't actually use a shuriken, they're thrown, and aura of chaos only works on melee.

NeoVid
2010-06-10, 09:36 PM
Then you have to use a halfling's unarmed strike.

Eloi
2010-06-10, 09:37 PM
It's not like you're actually being physically forced to keep rolling.

You are if you try that in my group. :smallamused:

NEO|Phyte
2010-06-10, 09:37 PM
The funny part comes when you realize that rerolling isn't optional for some or all ways of getting that 1 upgraded - you can never stop the loop.

But the rerolling IS optional.

Draz74
2010-06-10, 09:38 PM
You can't actually use a shuriken, they're thrown, and aura of chaos only works on melee.

Unless you're a Bloodstorm Blade, of course. :smallamused:

NEO|Phyte
2010-06-10, 09:39 PM
Unless you're a Bloodstorm Blade, of course. :smallamused:
Sadly, won't work, shuriken are explicitly unusable for melee attacks.

Draz74
2010-06-10, 09:42 PM
Sadly, won't work, shuriken are explicitly unusable for melee attacks.


A shuriken canít be used as a melee weapon.
Emphasis added.

As long as we're in rules-lawyer mode, yeah, I think this does work. A weapon doesn't need to count as "a melee weapon" in order to make "a melee attack," if it's being thrown by a Bloodstorm Blade.

Runestar
2010-06-10, 09:44 PM
Small-sized unarmed strike then. :smallsmile:

Eloi
2010-06-10, 09:44 PM
Emphasis added.

As long as we're in rules-lawyer mode, yeah, I think this does work. A weapon doesn't need to count as "a melee weapon" in order to make "a melee attack," if it's being thrown by a Bloodstorm Blade.

The defense rests.

The prosecution calls Eloi, Attorney at Rules to the stand.

"Melee attacks can only be made by melee weapons, otherwise they wouldn't be named as such."

Drakevarg
2010-06-10, 09:49 PM
The defense rests.

The prosecution calls Eloi, Attorney at Rules to the stand.

"Melee attacks can only be made by melee weapons, otherwise they wouldn't be named as such."

I know things like "logic" are supposed to be left at the door when discussing RAW, but what's stopping someone from simply stabbing you in the face with an arror instead of firing it from a bow?

Maerok
2010-06-10, 09:53 PM
I think Legolas did something like that. :smalltongue:

NEO|Phyte
2010-06-10, 09:56 PM
I know things like "logic" are supposed to be left at the door when discussing RAW, but what's stopping someone from simply stabbing you in the face with an arror instead of firing it from a bow?

The -4 penalty for using it as an improvised weapon? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#arrows)

Drakevarg
2010-06-10, 09:59 PM
The -4 penalty for using it as an improvised weapon? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#arrows)

Big difference between "improvised weapon penalty" and "can't be used in melee at all."

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-06-10, 10:01 PM
The defense rests.

The prosecution calls Eloi, Attorney at Rules to the stand.

"Melee attacks can only be made by melee weapons, otherwise they wouldn't be named as such."

Objection!!

The Bloodstorm Blade's Thunderous Throw class ability explicitly states


You can choose to treat your ranged attack rolls with thrown weapons as melee attacks

Specific overrides General.

NEO|Phyte
2010-06-10, 10:02 PM
Big difference between "improvised weapon penalty" and "can't be used in melee at all."
I don't recall anyone saying arrows couldn't be used in melee, but I bet that most people would look at the improvised weapon rules and decide to 5' step and shoot them in the face rather than stab. Hence, it stops them from doing it.

Drakevarg
2010-06-10, 10:08 PM
I don't recall anyone saying arrows couldn't be used in melee, but I bet that most people would look at the improvised weapon rules and decide to 5' step and shoot them in the face rather than stab. Hence, it stops them from doing it.

Assuming they have a bow handy.

NEO|Phyte
2010-06-10, 10:11 PM
If your bow's been disarmed, you draw your backup melee weapon.

...you DID remember to grab a backup melee weapon, right?

Drakevarg
2010-06-10, 10:13 PM
If your bow's been disarmed, you draw your backup melee weapon.

...you DID remember to grab a backup melee weapon, right?

Let's say, hypothetically, that your bow and all of your melee weapons have been sundered; hence WHY you're resorting to using the arrows as melee weapons.

Eloi
2010-06-10, 10:15 PM
I know things like "logic" are supposed to be left at the door when discussing RAW, but what's stopping someone from simply stabbing you in the face with an arror instead of firing it from a bow?

Because an arrow is a 'ranged weapon', an arrow stabbing someone in the face would be a melee attack with a ranged weapon, but it would not make the ranged weapon a melee weapon.

golentan
2010-06-10, 10:18 PM
Yes. Bloodstorm blade can use a shuriken for it.

However, given you're a full BAB class and you really, really don't need to power attack to do Infinity + 10 damage (infinity is quite sufficient), I think it's easier just to use an improvised weapon or a small creature's unarmed strike and soak the to hit/to inflict lethal damage penalty.

Given that it's an ability based on using a combination of luck, free spirit, and sheer manly martial determination to break the oppressive laws holding you back, and it deals literally infinite damage, I recommend investing in a small drill to hang around your neck and use as your improvised weapon.

You know you want to.

NEO|Phyte
2010-06-10, 10:18 PM
Let's say, hypothetically, that your bow and all of your melee weapons have been sundered; hence WHY you're resorting to using the arrows as melee weapons.

At that point, you'd probably be better off trying to get away rather than continue fighting something that is either a better melee fighter than you (and can thus easily sunder your stuff) or a sundercaster with your improvised weaponry. Unless you're really sure you can pull it off.

sofawall
2010-06-10, 10:18 PM
Because an arrow is a 'ranged weapon', an arrow stabbing someone in the face would be a melee attack with a ranged weapon, but it would not make the ranged weapon a melee weapon.

Objection! (http://objection.mrdictionary.net/go.php?n=3973616)

Eloi
2010-06-10, 10:28 PM
Objection! (http://objection.mrdictionary.net/go.php?n=3973616)

Objection! (http://objection.mrdictionary.net/go.php?n=3973638)

Hallavast
2010-06-10, 10:35 PM
This is turning into the best courtroom drama I've seen all day.*grabs popcorn*

Lycanthromancer
2010-06-10, 10:38 PM
This is turning into the best courtroom drama I've seen all day.*grabs popcorn*Objection! (http://objection.mrdictionary.net/go.php?n=3973678)

...Okay, I'll stop now.

Susano-wo
2010-06-10, 10:39 PM
Objection! (http://objection.mrdictionary.net/go.php?n=3973638)

Quoted for Awesome

I love that site :D

AtopTheMountain
2010-06-10, 10:44 PM
I love it when threads get off topic.
...
No, I actually do. I wasn't being sarcastic there. It's funny and generally better than the original discussion.
...
Carry on!

Eloi
2010-06-10, 10:57 PM
Objection! (http://objection.mrdictionary.net/go.php?n=3973678)

...Okay, I'll stop now.

(for popcorn)OBJECTION! (http://objection.mrdictionary.net/go.php?n=3973692)
(against popcorn)OBJECTION! (http://objection.mrdictionary.net/go.php?n=3973695)
(for popcorn)OBJECTION! (http://objection.mrdictionary.net/go.php?n=3973697)
(against popcorn)OBJECTION! (http://objection.mrdictionary.net/go.php?n=3973716)

Fax Celestis
2010-06-10, 11:09 PM
Then you have to use a halfling's unarmed strike.

Small viper' (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/snake.htm#viperSnake)s bite attack is also 1d2. Be an awakened snake. Then name yourself GALACTUS, DEVOURER OF WORLDS.

Optimystik
2010-06-10, 11:15 PM
(for popcorn)OBJECTION! (http://objection.mrdictionary.net/go.php?n=3973692)
(against popcorn)OBJECTION! (http://objection.mrdictionary.net/go.php?n=3973695)
(for popcorn)OBJECTION! (http://objection.mrdictionary.net/go.php?n=3973697)
(against popcorn)OBJECTION! (http://objection.mrdictionary.net/go.php?n=3973716)

What a delicious exchange. :smallwink:


Small viper' (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/snake.htm#viperSnake)s bite attack is also 1d2. Be an awakened snake. Then name yourself GALACTUS, DEVOURER OF WORLDS.

Isn't there some kind of small-sized weapon that would be 1d2, to avoid all the questionable arrow and bite nonsense?

And I'm not sure that punching/biting the planet would work, either. Wouldn't you have to overcome the ground's hardness to do anything, infinite 2s or not?

Drakevarg
2010-06-10, 11:23 PM
And I'm not sure that punching/biting the planet would work, either. Wouldn't you have to overcome the ground's hardness to do anything, infinite 2s or not?

Pretty sure the ground's Hardness is less than infinity. Hardness is basically Damage Reduction.

NEO|Phyte
2010-06-10, 11:23 PM
And I'm not sure that punching/biting the planet would work, either. Wouldn't you have to overcome the ground's hardness to do anything, infinite 2s or not?

It turns out that dealing (essentially) infinite damage means finite amounts of hardness are trivial.

Draz74
2010-06-10, 11:24 PM
Isn't there some kind of small-sized weapon that would be 1d2, to avoid all the questionable arrow and bite nonsense?
Sure, Gauntlet should be safe.


And I'm not sure that punching/biting the planet would work, either. Wouldn't you have to overcome the ground's hardness to do anything, infinite 2s or not?
Sure. But since the infinity 2s all come from the same attack, hardness doesn't apply to them separately. Say the ground has hardness 17. Infinity minus 17 is ... infinity.

Lycanthromancer
2010-06-10, 11:25 PM
What a delicious exchange. :smallwink:Really? I thought it was pretty corny, myself. :smalleek:

Anyway, what sorts of utilitarian awesomeness can we get up to with the d2 crusader?

You could essentially burrow through walls, for one.

Beorn080
2010-06-10, 11:25 PM
If its doing infinite damage, it overcomes hardness. Any hardness.

Anyone know what percent of infinity you need to do to sunder the planet your standing on?

Edit: Did anyone else pass their spot check to see all these ninja?

The_JJ
2010-06-10, 11:46 PM
Really? I thought it was pretty corny, myself. :smalleek:

Anyway, what sorts of utilitarian awesomeness can we get up to with the d2 crusader?

You could essentially burrow through walls, for one.

Objection! (http://objection.mrdictionary.net/go.php?n=3973841)

Irreverent Fool
2010-06-10, 11:50 PM
A smart DM'd say that it only counts when you actually ROLL a 2, not roll a 1 and COUNT it as 2.

But the Complete Champion's text says to treat it as a roll of 2. If you treat it (in all ways) as if you had rolled a 2, then you must also treat it as maximum damage, and therefore add more dice with Aura of Chaos.

This is why Inevitables were invented.

mucat
2010-06-10, 11:52 PM
Any DM would rightfully smack you or create contrived situations where it is impossible or very to get in melee reach.
First, not the second. If the DM accepts what you have done as legitimate, and then finds ways around it, he/she is just inviting you to find a way around the way around.

The only sane response is "Clever. You get a bare passing grade in math. Now how does this make the game more fun for everyone at the table?" Followed by smacking the player for wasting everyone's time, and saying "We're stsrting without you. Tell me when you've come up with a real character, and we'll try to work you into the story."

Eloi
2010-06-10, 11:57 PM
Objection! (http://objection.mrdictionary.net/go.php?n=3973841)

Objection! (http://objection.mrdictionary.net/go.php?n=3973869)

Dairun Cates
2010-06-11, 12:02 AM
You do realize that if we're going to go into HYPER RULES LAWYER mode to pull this off that it doesn't really work, right?

The luck power doesn't actually cause a reroll. It just causes a result of a 2. In other words. Sure, you rolled a 1 and got a 2, but you never rolled the 2 (the domain just modified the roll) and the mechanics doesn't actually cause a reroll. You never rolled a 2 on that dice. It's just the damage you got after everything was calculated. As long as that d2 reads a 1 on its surface, it's not going to count at my table.

Of course you can try to read it the other way, but that's a legitimate argument by a GM why it's not infinite. And if someone's going to try to use ABSOLUTELY every word in a sentence to make something go infinite, they shouldn't get to ignore the most important part (actually ROLLING the max damage). Now, obviously, a 1d1 weapon WOULD do this, but no one's going to make a 1d1 weapon.

Eloi
2010-06-11, 12:10 AM
You do realize that if we're going to go into HYPER RULES LAWYER mode to pull this off that it doesn't really work, right?

The luck power doesn't actually cause a reroll. It just causes a result of a 2. In other words. Sure, you rolled a 1 and got a 2, but you never rolled the 2 (the domain just modified the roll) and the mechanics doesn't actually cause a reroll. You never rolled a 2 on that dice. It's just the damage you got after everything was calculated. As long as that d2 reads a 1 on its surface, it's not going to count at my table.

Of course you can try to read it the other way, but that's a legitimate argument by a GM why it's not infinite. And if someone's going to try to use ABSOLUTELY every word in a sentence to make something go infinite, they shouldn't get to ignore the most important part (actually ROLLING the max damage). Now, obviously, a 1d1 weapon WOULD do this, but no one's going to make a 1d1 weapon.

OBJECTION!
A primal swarm takes half damage, thus if you are using a 1d2, you'd have to roll a 1d1 (which could be any dice with all of the sides modified to say '1'), and thus against a primal swarm you can do an unambiguous infinite loop of damage.

GoodbyeSoberDay
2010-06-11, 12:18 AM
1d1 is just 1. It's laid out in the weapon tables. That said, imbued healing doesn't 'cause a result of 2.' It makes you treat the die roll result as if it were a 2. Big difference.

Irreverent Fool
2010-06-11, 12:19 AM
You do realize that if we're going to go into HYPER RULES LAWYER mode to pull this off that it doesn't really work, right?

As long as that d2 reads a 1 on its surface, it's not going to count at my table.

...if someone's going to try to use ABSOLUTELY every word in a sentence to make something go infinite, they shouldn't get to ignore the most important part (actually ROLLING the max damage). Now, obviously, a 1d1 weapon WOULD do this, but no one's going to make a 1d1 weapon.

There's no such thing as a 1d1 weapon. Weapons scaling down from 1d2 simply do 1 damage.

We all know that do sane DM is going to allow this, but no sane player is really going to try the 1d2 Crusader, either.

As I said before, the text of the Complete Champion says to treat the die roll result as a 2. It doesn't say, "calculate damage instead as if it had been a 2" or "deal +1 damage" or something else that makes the RAW closer to the RAI. You treat the total roll as a 2. Since you are treating the 1d2 roll as a 2, you are treating it as having rolled the maximum damage.

Edit: You might be able to justify this if you call out that Aura of Chaos refers to what value shows on the die, but then the Complete Champion still says to treat the roll of 1 as a 2 and again if you're treating the roll as a 2, then you have to treat is as a 2 in all instances.

2xMachina
2010-06-11, 06:59 AM
Unless you're a BSB 10...

Ok, so the mook you hit vaporizes. There's still 10 more to go around...

PId6
2010-06-11, 07:05 AM
Unless you're a BSB 10...

Ok, so the mook you hit vaporizes. There's still 10 more to go around...
This is one of the few builds where I'd actually advocate taking Cleave + Great Cleave.

Jayabalard
2010-06-11, 07:33 AM
I sort of view it as Xeno's Paradox. You essentially don't have to roll damage, you know it hits and you know it worked, but the damage is literally infinite.No sorry, the rules say you have to roll, so all we can do now is sit here and watch you roll for damage for that first attack. We'll never be able to move on to saving the princess or anything else. Thanks for killing the game.

Saph
2010-06-11, 07:41 AM
The way I think of it is that using the 1d2 crusader hangs the game. The next action can't be taken until damage is resolved, and damage is never resolved, so the campaign world freezes.

One of the gods then has to go find Ao, Pun-Pun, or the equivalent overdeity running the campaign world and get them out of bed to reset the universe.

PId6
2010-06-11, 07:48 AM
This reminds me of Magic the Gathering, where you can "go infinite" through various combos. If you set up an infinite combo, you can just call the judge, show that you have knowledge of the combo, and then declare how many iterations you do it, without having to go through all of the steps. This is basically a NI combo.

However, if the combo doesn't have a "may" in there somewhere, you can't stop it, meaning it's literally infinite. These types of circumstances lead to the game ending in a draw, since you cannot resolve anything past that stage. This situation is exactly that, and when I think of the 1d2 Crusader, I get an image of the Crusader hitting someone, and then the universe freezing as it tries to resolve the steps of the attack, and the game then ends in a draw. Somehow.

You may not be able to "win" D&D, but you can still break even. :smallbiggrin:

AstralFire
2010-06-11, 07:51 AM
Xeno's Paradox (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeno's_paradoxes#The_dichotomy_paradox) is all I will say. From the gameworld's perspective, all of the damage should be resolved instantly.

2xMachina
2010-06-11, 07:58 AM
^ I agree too. You're not doing infinite attacks, you're doing infinite damage. And damage is resolved instantaneously, regardless of high high the damage, or how many 'dice' is rolled.

NEO|Phyte
2010-06-11, 11:18 AM
Why do people keep saying you can't end the loop, there's a "can" right there in the last sentence of Aura of Chaos, giving you all the power in the game to go "Ok, that last roll was plenty of damage."

Another_Poet
2010-06-11, 11:37 AM
The funny part comes when you realize that rerolling isn't optional for some or all ways of getting that 1 upgraded - you can never stop the loop.

Until the target dies. The I assume the attack ends.

PId6
2010-06-11, 11:44 AM
Until the target dies. The I assume the attack ends.
Except damage doesn't resolve until you've calculated it fully. It's not that you're dealing damage and then more damage, it's that you're dealing one contiguous large whole of damage. It's all one attack, so all the damage must be calculated at once.

Keld Denar
2010-06-11, 12:20 PM
SYNTAX ERRROR

Please insert disk and restart universe.

Gametime
2010-06-11, 12:29 PM
Given that it's an ability based on using a combination of luck, free spirit, and sheer manly martial determination to break the oppressive laws holding you back, and it deals literally infinite damage, I recommend investing in a small drill to hang around your neck and use as your improvised weapon.

You know you want to.

Simon being a 1d2 Crusader would explain so much.

(Well, not really, but who cares? ROW ROW FIGHT THE POWAH.)

Now who wants to figure out a way to spontaneously generate sunglasses within the D&D ruleset?

Ormagoden
2010-06-11, 12:36 PM
Crusader has this 6th lv stance called aura of chaos which lets you roll again for damage if you roll the max (eg: if you roll an 8 for a longsword attack, you may roll the d8 again and add the extra damage to your total, rerolling again if you got the maximum).

Imbued healing (complete champion) with luck domain lets the player treat any roll of 1 on a damage roll as 2.

Small shurikens deal 1d2 damage.

So if you roll 1d2 and get a 2, you roll again. If you roll a 1, it is treated as though you had rolled a 2.

Resulting in infinite damage. ninjas :smalleek:


Fixed it for you!




Simon being a 1d2 Crusader would explain so much.

(Well, not really, but who cares? ROW ROW FIGHT THE POWAH.)

Now who wants to figure out a way to spontaneously generate sunglasses within the D&D ruleset?

I prefer parasols.

Optimystik
2010-06-11, 12:42 PM
Sure. But since the infinity 2s all come from the same attack, hardness doesn't apply to them separately. Say the ground has hardness 17. Infinity minus 17 is ... infinity.

Ah, I misread the ability - I thought you got another attack when you rerolled.

Yrcrazypa
2010-06-11, 01:20 PM
Given that it's an ability based on using a combination of luck, free spirit, and sheer manly martial determination to break the oppressive laws holding you back, and it deals literally infinite damage, I recommend investing in a small drill to hang around your neck and use as your improvised weapon.

You know you want to.

So THAT'S how he killed Lordgenome.

Another_Poet
2010-06-11, 01:22 PM
Hmm. Since it does deal an infinite and continually ongoing amount of damage, I suppose it would be impossible to resurrect the victim. Or rather, you could do it, but they'd immediately be taking infinite damage and die again.

edit: Actually, scratch that. I have to take issue with this:


Except damage doesn't resolve until you've calculated it fully. It's not that you're dealing damage and then more damage, it's that you're dealing one contiguous large whole of damage. It's all one attack, so all the damage must be calculated at once.

Except that it either happens instantaneously (probably the best reading) in which case you can do the math, see that it's an infinite amount of damage, and move on; or it takes time and is continually ongoing. If it takes time and is continually ongoing, then the next round eventually starts, and the 1d2 Crusader's allies can bull rush/grapple him off of the first guy's corpse and throw him at the next guy. The crusader may be eternally stuck mid-stab but everything that touches the businesses end of that stab takes the damage of the continuously compounded reroll.

If you're going to rule that the attack is eternally ongoing, then the party can just use the guy as a portable Arbitrarily High Damage Output machine. he's probably size Small so it's not even hard to move him around. If they ever want to stop the machine and hang out with their buddy they can just sunder his weapon, thus making it impossible to continue the strike.

ap

Optimystik
2010-06-11, 01:27 PM
Hmm. Since it does deal an infinite and continually ongoing amount of damage, I suppose it would be impossible to resurrect the victim. Or rather, you could do it, but they'd immediately be taking infinite damage and die again.

Technically, once they are dead the Crusader is no longer damaging them, because they are now on another plane. You could pound their corpse into a fine paste, but a True Res can still bring them back somewhere else - preferably out of range of the perpetual beatdown machine.

InkEyes
2010-06-11, 01:47 PM
If you're going to rule that the attack is eternally ongoing, then the party can just use the guy as a portable Arbitrarily High Damage Output machine. he's probably size Small so it's not even hard to move him around. If they ever want to stop the machine and hang out with their buddy they can just sunder his weapon, thus making it impossible to continue the strike.


If you only had the attack in reserve for really serious scenarios, you could also craft a contingent spell of Celerity into Enlarge. That way you won't have to sunder whatever the halfling's unarmed striking with to get him to stop.

Chen
2010-06-11, 02:14 PM
If you only had the attack in reserve for really serious scenarios, you could also craft a contingent spell of Celerity into Enlarge. That way you won't have to sunder whatever the halfling's unarmed striking with to get him to stop.

The infinite part is resolving the damage dealt. Thats not even a defined period of time in game. Even if you could interrupt it, there's no rules as to what occurs when you do.

Zeful
2010-06-11, 02:24 PM
The infinite part is resolving the damage dealt. Thats not even a defined period of time in game. Even if you could interrupt it, there's no rules as to what occurs when you do.

There are, but most of them would prevent the crusader from dealing any damage.

Another_Poet
2010-06-11, 02:42 PM
The infinite part is resolving the damage dealt. Thats not even a defined period of time in game. Even if you could interrupt it, there's no rules as to what occurs when you do.

I agree.

My point is that in the game world it happens instantaneously, so the game can just go on. You don't need to roll and reroll infinitely (barring DM fiat) anymore than you have to roll a d1 on the rare occasion that a d1 is called for (Fine creature using unarmed strike). You can just look at it and see the result: a d1 always yields a 1 and a 1d2 Crusader always yields infinite damage.

The strike does not delay the game world (as calculation are resolved in the real world) and does not delay the real world (because the formula can only yield one result and there is no need ro roll anything to determine that result).

ap

GoodbyeSoberDay
2010-06-11, 02:50 PM
Why do people keep saying you can't end the loop, there's a "can" right there in the last sentence of Aura of Chaos, giving you all the power in the game to go "Ok, that last roll was plenty of damage."This bears repeating. You can continue to reroll, meaning you can stop, too.

PId6
2010-06-11, 03:39 PM
Except that it either happens instantaneously (probably the best reading) in which case you can do the math, see that it's an infinite amount of damage, and move on; or it takes time and is continually ongoing. If it takes time and is continually ongoing, then the next round eventually starts, and the 1d2 Crusader's allies can bull rush/grapple him off of the first guy's corpse and throw him at the next guy. The crusader may be eternally stuck mid-stab but everything that touches the businesses end of that stab takes the damage of the continuously compounded reroll.

If you're going to rule that the attack is eternally ongoing, then the party can just use the guy as a portable Arbitrarily High Damage Output machine. he's probably size Small so it's not even hard to move him around. If they ever want to stop the machine and hang out with their buddy they can just sunder his weapon, thus making it impossible to continue the strike.
If I were running this, I'd rule it like MtG where once the loop starts, it continues looping and everything freezes in that one instant to do the calculations. There is no time after that; it's not ongoing, because no further rounds are happening. Nobody else would get a turn unless they can do so via immediate action (so Celerity + Enlarge Person stops this).

It doesn't particularly make sense, but neither does 1d2 Crusader, so whatever. It's cooler this way. It's a freaken infinite loop; the universe can't handle it and implodes.


This bears repeating. You can continue to reroll, meaning you can stop, too.
Not necessarily; the actual reroll part of Aura of Chaos does not have a "can" in it, so it's ambiguous whether the can in that sentence actually grants you permission to stop it (you can continue, but that doesn't mean you can not continue).

Reynard
2010-06-11, 04:53 PM
Not necessarily; the actual reroll part of Aura of Chaos does not have a "can" in it, so it's ambiguous whether the can in that sentence actually grants you permission to stop it (you can continue, but that doesn't mean you can not continue).It's 'can', not 'must'. 'Can' means you have a choice.

Dogmantra
2010-06-11, 04:55 PM
It's 'can', not 'must'. 'Can' means you have a choice.

Ehhh... I dunno. Can doesn't imply choice, where may does. Example: I can breathe. I also must breathe or I'll die.

olentu
2010-06-11, 05:00 PM
Ehhh... I dunno. Can doesn't imply choice, where may does. Example: I can breathe. I also must breathe or I'll die.

That is not such a good example.

Another_Poet
2010-06-11, 05:04 PM
If I were running this, I'd rule it like MtG where once the loop starts, it continues looping and everything freezes in that one instant to do the calculations. There is no time after that; it's not ongoing, because no further rounds are happening. Nobody else would get a turn unless they can do so via immediate action (so Celerity + Enlarge Person stops this).

This is a fine way to smack down the player who actually dares to bring this cheese into the game, but it makes no more sense from a rules perspective than stopping the game until someone can produce an actual d1 to roll when a Fine weapon deals 1d1+Str.

PId6
2010-06-11, 05:06 PM
It's 'can', not 'must'. 'Can' means you have a choice.
'Can' implies you have a choice, but only 'may' actually says that you have a choice. Since the actual rerolling portion doesn't mention any sort of choice, it's ambiguous at the very least.

"I can be a human." This statement is perfectly true. That doesn't mean that I have a choice in the matter.


This is a fine way to smack down the player who actually dares to bring this cheese into the game, but it makes no more sense from a rules perspective than stopping the game until someone can produce an actual d1 to roll when a Fine weapon deals 1d1+Str.
Since there are no rules regarding infinities, we have to interpret it how we will. Saying it's 'instantaneous' and moving on has as little rules backing.

Irreverent Fool
2010-06-11, 05:23 PM
'Can' implies you have a choice, but only 'may' actually says that you have a choice. Since the actual rerolling portion doesn't mention any sort of choice, it's ambiguous at the very least.

"I can be a human." This statement is perfectly true. That doesn't mean that I have a choice in the matter.

Your example is flawed and you know it. :smallmad:

It's not instantaneous, but the damage does occur in the span of a single six-second combat round.

I've given the 1d2 Crusader some thought, and I realize that it really isn't that bad. It's infinite damage, but it's not much worse than a well-built ubercharger. I would fluff this sort of thing as a forbidden technique, however. That could make for some interesting interactions out-of-combat.

Reynard
2010-06-11, 05:24 PM
'Can' implies you have a choice, but only 'may' actually says that you have a choice. Since the actual rerolling portion doesn't mention any sort of choice, it's ambiguous at the very least.

"I can be a human." This statement is perfectly true. That doesn't mean that I have a choice in the matter.

No, that statement is not true. You are a human, you have no choice, at all, in the matter. No one would ever say they 'can be a human' because that statement makes no sense.

No English-speaking person would ever write, and in a rule book mind you, that 'you can do this' if you didn't actually have a choice.

Saintjebus
2010-06-11, 05:33 PM
"Can" and "May" are not mutually exclusive. You may have the ability to do something that you can do. The two terms are complementary, not contradictory(also, both give choice. They only refer to ability).

Zeful
2010-06-11, 05:35 PM
It's 'can', not 'must'. 'Can' means you have a choice.

No, it doesn't (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/can). The use of "can" in a sentence is simply an expression of ability. There is nothing in the definition about choice.

In this instance you have the ability to roll more dice every time any of the qualifying dice reaches it's maximum value. You do not have the ability to stop. Therefore every time you roll the maximum value on a dice under this ability you add another, and you continue this process every time a die reaches it's maximum value.

"Can" is not "May", "May" actually allows choice.

Irreverent Fool
2010-06-11, 05:41 PM
No, it doesn't (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/can). The use of "can" in a sentence is simply an expression of ability. There is nothing in the definition about choice.

In this instance you have the ability to roll more dice every time any of the qualifying dice reaches it's maximum value. You do not have the ability to stop. Therefore every time you roll the maximum value on a dice under this ability you add another, and you continue this process every time a die reaches it's maximum value.

"Can" is not "May", "May" actually allows choice.

Isn't there some rule that states that the second someone argues a point in a forum discussion by citing a dictionary definition, they lose said argument?

This has gotten a bit sillier than it needs to be. By your definition, one does not have a choice whether or not to create scrolls with Scribe Scroll.

I have the ability to run.

A coin can land heads-up when it is flipped.

PId6
2010-06-11, 05:44 PM
Your example is flawed and you know it. :smallmad:
I actually don't, so if you care to elaborate...

It's a terribly sounding sentence, and very misleading, but still correct. I don't really expect better from WOTC.


It's not instantaneous, but the damage does occur in the span of a single six-second combat round.
Yes, but a six-second combat round takes as long to resolve as it takes out of game for players to resolve it. If you ever have a player bad at math, this should be particularly noticeable.


I've given the 1d2 Crusader some thought, and I realize that it really isn't that bad. It's infinite damage, but it's not much worse than a well-built ubercharger. I would fluff this sort of thing as a forbidden technique, however. That could make for some interesting interactions out-of-combat.
There's a huge difference; the ubercharger actually needs to charge for most of its damage, which limits its applicability a lot. Difficult terrain, obstacles in the way, adjacent enemies; all of these are problems for the ubercharger. The 1d2 Crusader just kills whatever it hits (and can even go ranged with Bloodstorm Blade). Whether it takes the universe with it, however, is up for debate.


No, that statement is not true. You are a human, you have no choice, at all, in the matter. No one would ever say they 'can be a human' because that statement makes no sense.

No English-speaking person would ever write, and in a rule book mind you, that 'you can do this' if you didn't actually have a choice.
It's completely grammatically and logically correct as a sentence. It's a bit exaggerated for the sake of clarity, but still valid.

"When one or more of your damage dice show a maximum possible result, reroll each such die and add its result to the original damage total." This sentence doesn't have any "may" or "can" inside it, and that's the ambiguous part. This sentence by itself is enough to explain the entirety of the effect; the next sentence simply clarifies that it can continue if you keep rolling maximum. I read the "can" there not as a player choice but as a choice of events, so to speak, as in "This can happen" rather than "You can do this."

Like I said, there's ambiguity, and we're just splitting hairs over grammar here. It really depends on personal readings, and there's really no point arguing so much when 1d2 Crusaders shouldn't be allowed ever anyway.

Irreverent Fool
2010-06-11, 05:48 PM
I actually don't, so if you care to elaborate...

One's ability to do a thing does not require one to continue to do that thing.

PId6
2010-06-11, 05:52 PM
One's ability to do a thing does not require one to continue to do that thing.
So my ability to be human... does not require me to continue being human...

:smallconfused:

Curmudgeon
2010-06-11, 06:08 PM
I don't see why this argument has gone on so long. Let's step through the rules, shall we?
When rolling damage for a melee attack, you gain a special benefit from any damage die that rolls its maximum amount (such as a result of 6 on a d6). When one or more of your damage dice show a maximum possible result, reroll each such die and add its result to the original damage total. You can continue to reroll as long as a die shows its maximum possible result, adding each new number to the damage total until each die has shown less than a maximum result.
Luck: When rolling for damage, treat any die roll result of 1 as 2, unless 1 is the maximum result possible. With a 1d2 weapon you have two possibilities:

You roll a 1. Imbued Healing treats this as a 2, but the die didn't actually roll its maximum value; it still shows a 1, so you're done.
You roll a 2. Aura of Truth stipulates that you reroll and add.

Chrono22
2010-06-11, 06:13 PM
So my ability to be human... does not require me to continue being human...
What else do you have the ability to be, exactly? I've never met a nonhuman before.

PId6
2010-06-11, 06:17 PM
What else do you have the ability to be, exactly? I've never met a nonhuman before.
That's the point. I was trying to figure out what Irreverent Fool was getting at, and failing.

And you've never met a nonhuman before? You poor poor soul. Here's one for you to meet:

http://www.teach-ict.com/ks3/year7/graphics/lesson1/resources/puppy.jpg

Draken
2010-06-11, 06:28 PM
Irreverent Fool is failing at nothing. You don't have the ability to be human, unless you are some sort of real-life shapechanger. You are human.

Really, the only way I can think your "I can be human" line applies is that you have the option to be a human derivate instead of a basic human, and the only human derivate I can think of is a dead human.

PId6
2010-06-11, 06:35 PM
Irreverent Fool is failing at nothing.
I meant that I was failing at understanding what he meant, as my sentence structure should show:


That's the point. I was trying to <do something>, and failing.


You don't have the ability to be human, unless you are some sort of real-life shapechanger. You are human.
I am human, and I can be human because I can't be anything else. Makes logical sense to me.

Draken
2010-06-11, 07:07 PM
Incorrect, like I said, you can be a human derivate.

But you most definitelly wouldn't want to be a human derivate.

Another_Poet
2010-06-11, 07:13 PM
Ooh! I just thought of something! What if the 1d2 comes up a 1 every time no matter how many times you reroll it?! Given that the player will roll a finite number of times before becoming exhausted (going home to sleep, etc.) it is statistically possible though not probably.

In that case the 1d2 Crusader never does any damage!

Just slip them your weighted d4 or your trick coin when they make that attack roll. :)

Irreverent Fool
2010-06-11, 08:24 PM
So my ability to be human... does not require me to continue being human...

And my ability to run requires me to keep running?


I don't see why this argument has gone on so long. Let's step through the rules, shall we? With a 1d2 weapon you have two possibilities:

You roll a 1. Imbued Healing treats this as a 2, but the die didn't actually roll its maximum value; it still shows a 1, so you're done.
You roll a 2. Aura of Truth stipulates that you reroll and add.


I agree that this is the way it should be interpreted, but if you treat the roll as a 2, don't you also treat the die roll as showing a 2?

Zeful
2010-06-11, 08:35 PM
I agree that this is the way it should be interpreted, but if you treat the roll as a 2, don't you also treat the die roll as showing a 2?

If I roll a 15 on an attack roll, and add a +5 modifier to it, would I treat the roll as a critical hit? It is after all a 20.

Swok
2010-06-11, 08:46 PM
Adding +5 to a d20 to get a 20 to hit is not treating the die roll as a 20, as imbued healing specifically does with treating 1's a a 2 being rolled.

Curmudgeon
2010-06-11, 08:52 PM
Regardless, Aura of Chaos specifically requires the rolled die to show the maximum value, not "be treated as" that value. You would need Imbued Healing to direct you to manually roll the die to show the maximum value for the infinite damage loop to work.

Roderick_BR
2010-06-11, 11:04 PM
I agree.

My point is that in the game world it happens instantaneously, so the game can just go on. You don't need to roll and reroll infinitely (barring DM fiat) anymore than you have to roll a d1 on the rare occasion that a d1 is called for (Fine creature using unarmed strike). You can just look at it and see the result: a d1 always yields a 1 and a 1d2 Crusader always yields infinite damage.

The strike does not delay the game world (as calculation are resolved in the real world) and does not delay the real world (because the formula can only yield one result and there is no need ro roll anything to determine that result).

ap
So, you can just roll until the target is disentegrated (after that, the target is no longer valid, and you stop rolling damage, since there's no target to damage anymore). Or just make up rules for infinite damage. I actually saw some rules for infinite abilities in some games. For instance, infinite damage deals infinite damage, therefore anything dies instantly to it, unless you get either infinite AC (that negates all attacks unless you get an infinite attack bonus or is an effect that doesn't require an attack roll at all), or infinite Hit Points (where you are just immortal, unless some effect that ignores HP damage manages to kill you).

Irreverent Fool
2010-06-12, 12:59 AM
So, you can just roll until the target is disentegrated (after that, the target is no longer valid, and you stop rolling damage, since there's no target to damage anymore). Or just make up rules for infinite damage. I actually saw some rules for infinite abilities in some games. For instance, infinite damage deals infinite damage, therefore anything dies instantly to it, unless you get either infinite AC (that negates all attacks unless you get an infinite attack bonus or is an effect that doesn't require an attack roll at all), or infinite Hit Points (where you are just immortal, unless some effect that ignores HP damage manages to kill you).

Well, they don't take the damage until you figure out how much damage you deal, so that first part doesn't necessarily work.

Infinite AC can still be overcome with natural 20's.

Infinite Hit Points can be overcome by doing 50 or more points of damage in a single attack and a failed Fort save... though I suppose death-by-massive-damage counts as an effect that ignores HP and manages to kill you.