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afroakuma
2010-06-11, 01:00 AM
D&D monsters suffer a major vulnerability when compared to PCs, as monsters were typically build around their own sourcebook plus the core rules. This means that monsters miss out on the best spell-like abilities, some really great feats, and even whole systems such as ToB, (real) psionics or Incarnum.

Add to that the fact that the original designers didn't know what they were working with in their system. Monsters are listed with save-boosting feats, or Dodge, or relatively trivial Skill Focus choices.

So, here's the premise this time around: take a monster from a 3.5 WotC source, whether it be a Monster Manual, a Fiend Folio or some out-of-the-way sourcebook, and list what you would change. Different feats? New spell-like abilities? Stances and maneuvers? Optimize a monster as a back-end designer, using the scale of resources we have available for character building.

Provisos:
• Nothing that would constitute advancement (i.e. don't suggest increases in HD for better stats or class levels for class abilities. This is about monsters as monsters, not monsters as fatter monsters or monsters as hatracks for nasty PC abilities).
• Monsters need to keep the same number of feats they originally had.
• Monsters should retain a selection of abilities comparable in scope and number to their original statblock. No time stop for ogre magi, for example.
• Replacement abilities must be reasonable and sensible for the monster in question; gelatinous cubes with White Raven Tactics are out.
• Please choose monsters that are not essentially NPC races (e.g. goblins, orcs, kobolds etc.)
• New feats/spells/etc. can come from any published WotC 3.5 book (not Dragon Magazine, no 3rd party etc.)

Have fun! :smallsmile:

Irreverent Fool
2010-06-11, 01:18 AM
Wizards did something like this in their Monster Makeover (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20060721a) articles. I approve. Continue.

Temotei
2010-06-11, 01:32 AM
Dang. If I was better with modifying monsters, I would try the couatl. Will someone do that for me, please? :smallbiggrin:

Runestar
2010-06-11, 08:08 AM
The easiest way to start would be to play around with their feat selection. Simply replacing them with better feats can easily make them much stronger. Dungeonscape does this with a few sample monsters (and in some cases, the improvement is quite startling, IMO).

I think the 1st thing to consider is - what role do you want them to fill? Quite a number of monsters appear quite over-designed, such as fiends, as they have way too many abilities. 3.5 did a fairly good job of streamlining their powers, but they can still be quite complex to run.

In addition, don't underestimate MIC. It has a lot of fairly cheap magic gear which can be used to grant monsters additional abilities.

For starters...

Ogre magi - add 3 giant HD, giving it 8 HD (increasing its bab, hp, saves and skills accordingly). Replace its SLAs with either wiz9 spellcasting (emphasis on evocation + illusion), or eldritch blast/invocations of a 9th lv warlock. I feel this makes it more in line with its cr of 8. Maybe remove regeneration.

Brutes such as giants and ogres - even the humble martial study feat can be used to grant them low lv maneuvers, which adds variety to their otherwise mundane attack routine. An ogre with a reach weapon, steel wind and punishing stance gets improved damage potential in exchange for a lower AC.

Their ranged attack sucks, as their low dex means their attack rating is typically quite poor. Consider swapping in the brutal throw feat, which lets them use their str on ranged throwing attack rolls. Complete warrior? adventurer?

Alternatively, look to the various tactical feats for some variety. A hill giant with the 3-mountains style adds some debuff/controllerish ability, while shock trooper makes it more of a striker/glass-cannon.

Dragons - Xorvintaal template from MM5, making them less complex to run by removing a large chunk of their options. They are probably weaker for it, but at least the PCs won't feel like they are fighting yet another shapechanged wizard. :smallsmile:

Beholder - I know a makeover variant exists, but I also want to tackle some of its perceived weaknesses. Namely, it is too fragile for its cr. I would give it 4 more HD (increasing its cr to 14). This gives it 2 more feats, and makes it more robust. Replace its feats with improved toughness, diehard, agile tyrant and focused antimagic (both from LOM), plus any other 2 feats of your choice. Finally, we slap on the dungeonbred template (dungeonscape), making it medium (+2 attack/touch AC) and improving its flight.

Runestar
2010-06-11, 08:30 AM
Fiends - In general, I like what 4e did with them, getting rid of most of their SLAs while playing up their signature strengths to make them more unique. I will try to see if I can replicate that success in 3.5. One gripe though - there is a lot of things to keep track of, since demons/devils come with a laundry list of resistances/immunities.

Marilith - Remove all SLAs save for unholy aura and teleport without error. Increase HD to 20. Give it the dervish dance ability.

Pit fiend - This one's tricky, since its SLAs fit my mental image of what it ought to be capable of perfectly (summon 2 horned devils to harry the party while it hangs back and spams SLAs, wading into combat only when its allies have been killed). Only issue is its lackluster melee attack routine.

Proposal - Give it a large magical greatsword. Replace feats with improved trip (using its wings to trip - the +4 to-hit vs prone enemies is huge) and improved multiattack (to help with secondary attacks). Also give it the knowledge devotion feat (complete champion); with its high knowledge checks, you are easily looking at +5 to-hit/damage on all attacks. Use power attack to adjust its attack rating as need be.

However, its hp is still fairly pathetic. I am not sure it is really a cr20 (18 or 17 seems more fitting).

Fighters typically have no problems hitting AC44 these days. Give it a monk's belt to further raise its AC to 51 (add bracers of armour or use expertise/fighting defensively+war devotion if that is still not enough). Alternatively, give it a belt of battle to let it move and still be capable of a full attack. Which brings me to ...

Horned Devil - At first glance...Improved sunder when it is wielding a spiked chain??? Swap in quicken SLA: Fireball, combat reflexes, robilar's gambit, expertise, improved trip and improved disarm. The idea is to generate tons of AoOs with your 20-ft reach and cause all sorts of nuisance (you can trip, disarm and stun). Maybe even bring in mage-slayer vs casters.

Barbed Devil - I am generally quite satisfied with its stat block, perhaps bring in quicken SLA: scorching ray.

afroakuma
2010-06-11, 08:39 AM
The easiest way to start would be to play around with their feat selection. Simply replacing them with better feats can easily make them much stronger. Dungeonscape does this with a few sample monsters (and in some cases, the improvement is quite startling, IMO).

That's largely the inspiration for this... that, and looking at the largely non-core spell lists of my players. :smalltongue:

The ideal paradigm was leaving in place (Ex) and (Su) abilities generally and not adding HD, only changing out things that don't require a statblock rewrite (well, I suppose feats do, but still...)

The easiest changeovers, in my mind, come from using the Draconomicon, Libris Mortis and Lords of Madness to re-feat the appropriate creatures.

I think a lot of the casting-type monsters, particularly those who would advance via class levels, could be served by removing SLAs in favor of going the naga/rakshasa route and being considered SorX for class advancement purposes.

Runestar
2010-06-11, 08:48 AM
I think that replacing their SLAs with spellcasting might actually make them more difficult to run.

I increased their HD because I felt the removal of their SLAs would make them weaker (since higher-lv combat is all about spells), so I thought they needed the extra durability. In general, I am trying to make melee an integral part of combat even at higher lvs.

afroakuma
2010-06-11, 09:13 AM
I think that replacing their SLAs with spellcasting might actually make them more difficult to run.

Oh, I was referring to, as I said, monsters I'd want to improve via class levels. Again using the rakshasa as an example, it can advance as a sorcerer from its current spellcasting ability, whereas a great many other highly-magical creatures taking Sor1 would start on the ground floor. I definitely wouldn't switch it out across the board, nor for creatures like demons whose primary role is not spellslinger, as you noted.


I increased their HD because I felt the removal of their SLAs would make them weaker (since higher-lv combat is all about spells), so I thought they needed the extra durability. In general, I am trying to make melee an integral part of combat even at higher lvs.

Understandable.

The question remains, though; take a marilith, for instance. With the resources players have now to make their characters, what would her SLA pool look like? What feat selection would she have? Would she gain stances and maneuvers? If so, which?

(Actually, a marilith with ToB behind her sounds scary awesome :smallbiggrin:)

Runestar
2010-06-11, 09:24 AM
The question remains, though; take a marilith, for instance. With the resources players have now to make their characters, what would her SLA pool look like? What feat selection would she have? Would she gain stances and maneuvers? If so, which?

(Actually, a marilith with ToB behind her sounds scary awesome )

I actually wouldn't change her SLA pool. Probably give her tiger claw maneuvers to take advantage of her multi-weapon fighting capabilities. For example, 1 lv of warblade gives her access to pounce and dancing mongoose (with haste, she can charge and make up to 13 attacks). Maybe throw in that rend feat from PHB2 for a little bit of extra damage. You can try to squeeze in stormguard warrior to funnel her less useful iterative attacks into combat rhythm for +12 damage to her 6 main attacks (which are more likely to hit). Sudden leap for improved mobility (ranged attacks may prove problematic). This can probably take the place of her normal SLAs.

true_shinken
2010-06-11, 10:01 AM
Give the Tarrasque Rapidstrike, Improved Rapidstrike, Brutal Throw, Throw Anything and Robilar's Gambit instead of all those Toughness feats. While you are at it, maximize his Jump check. Then laugh. A lot.

Zeta Kai
2010-06-11, 10:46 AM
Give the Tarrasque Rapidstrike, Improved Rapidstrike, Brutal Throw, Throw Anything and Robilar's Gambit instead of all those Toughness feats. While you are at it, maximize his Jump check. Then laugh. A lot.

Yeah, my players went up against a Tarrasque, expecting a cake walk. But those 6 Toughness feats got turned into Improved Toughness + 5 WAY better feats (which I cannot recall :smallfrown:), & the Search/Survival skill points were reallocated to Jump. I've never seen an entire table of player simultaneously jaw-drop before, but with average rolls (no DM screen for me), he was pouncing the wizards out of the sky like he was swatting flies. Then he bit down on the wildshaped bear druid, splattering him with a crit that sent the druid to -105HP. It was priceless. I've never had fun running a TPK before, but it was a one-off session, so the players still had a blast.

Optimystik
2010-06-11, 10:52 AM
Give the Tarrasque Rapidstrike, Improved Rapidstrike, Brutal Throw, Throw Anything and Robilar's Gambit instead of all those Toughness feats. While you are at it, maximize his Jump check. Then laugh. A lot.

Can't you still Reach Spell-Plane Shift him to the PEP?

Mystic Muse
2010-06-11, 10:54 AM
Might not be exactly what you're looking for but here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=142724)

true_shinken
2010-06-11, 11:08 AM
Can't you still Reach Spell-Plane Shift him to the PEP?
Yeah, changing 6 feats does not make the tarrasque unbeatable, only more of a challenge. I doubt Reach Spell - plane shift would be the first approach of anyone to anything.

PId6
2010-06-11, 11:11 AM
Can't you still Reach Spell-Plane Shift him to the PEP?
And Allips.

Draz74
2010-06-11, 11:13 AM
Yeah, my players went up against a Tarrasque, expecting a cake walk. But those 6 Toughness feats got turned into Improved Toughness + 5 WAY better feats (which I cannot recall :smallfrown:), & the Search/Survival skill points were reallocated to Jump. I've never seen an entire table of player simultaneously jaw-drop before, but with average rolls (no DM screen for me), he was pouncing the wizards out of the sky like he was swatting flies. Then he bit down on the wildshaped bear druid, splattering him with a crit that sent the druid to -105HP. It was priceless. I've never had fun running a TPK before, but it was a one-off session, so the players still had a blast.

Nice. I hope those 5 other feats included some Incarnum and Tome of Battle goodness.

"What do you mean the Tarrasque can't fly? He has the Pegasus Cloak Soulmeld, right here in the Feats section of his stat block!"

Prime32
2010-06-11, 11:36 AM
Roper (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/roper.htm)

Remove Iron Will feat, and shift some ability score points into Dex. Add:
HD: One level of Soul EaterBoVD
Feats: Combat Reflexes, Mage Slayer, Pierce Magical Protection
Flaws: Shaky, Vulnerable
Equipment: necklace of +1 shocking corrosive natural weapons

Note that its increased BAB gives it an extra attack.


EDIT: If you want to be really evil, combine a roper with a rust monster somehow (symbiotic + dungeonbred?) so that you can't cut the strands without destroying your weapon.

afroakuma
2010-06-11, 11:43 AM
HD: One level of soul eaterBoVD

Adding PrC or other class levels isn't in the deal; otherwise, every monster with multiple natural weapons would just do Soul Eater (and it wouldn't make a great deal of sense for most of them).


Flaws: Shaky, Vulnerable

I don't know if I'd give flaws to a monster.

Once again, the premise is to alter a monster's existing parameters; giving class levels and/or extra HD to a monster is advancement.

Also, don't you need a neck to wear a necklace? :smalltongue:


EDIT: If you want to be really evil, combine a roper with a rust monster somehow (symbiotic + dungeonbred?) so that you can't cut the strands without destroying your weapon.

I need to homebrew that :smallbiggrin:

EDIT: One example I like is giving class levels to a celestial (or making an HD = character level ruling) and giving them Vow of Poverty. It makes for nasty encounters since they get a heap of benefits and provide no treasure at the end of the fight. :smallbiggrin:

arguskos
2010-06-11, 11:58 AM
Hey now! This thread isn't hardly fair! Each of us individually against the collective might of the Playground? Why don't you just take us out back and shoot us, afro? :smalltongue:

Also, I really need to do this with the Voor, to make it yet more terrifyingly powerful for it's CR. :smallamused:

afroakuma
2010-06-11, 12:01 PM
Hey now! This thread isn't hardly fair! Each of us individually against the collective might of the Playground? Why don't you just take us out back and shoot us, afro? :smalltongue:

The word "muahahahahahaha" comes to mind.

But relax, argus, you won't be getting twinked-out monsters.

You'll be getting twinked-out monsters with templates! :smallbiggrin:

Keld Denar
2010-06-11, 12:04 PM
Tsern over on 339 wrote up a version of Mr. T that pretty much was a walking TPK. I think he gave it Airstep Sandles and Phase Cloak, along with Mage Slayer and Martial Study: Raging Mongoose. Tarrasque, with all of his HD has quite the Initiator Level, even at 1/2 IL per HD.

SurpriseFlyingTarrasqueChargingThroughAWallButtSec hs!

arguskos
2010-06-11, 12:05 PM
The word "muahahahahahaha" comes to mind.

But relax, argus, you won't be getting twinked-out monsters.

You'll be getting twinked-out monsters with templates! :smallbiggrin:
*cries in fear*

And you gave me a hard time for taking MAGE ARMOR. :smallmad: Damn hypocritical DMish person. :smalltongue:

afroakuma
2010-06-11, 12:10 PM
Keld! You're good at this sort of thing. Got any twinked-out mods to monsters? :smallbiggrin:

Preferably ones that are not, you know, the Tarrasque. :smalltongue:

Yora
2010-06-11, 12:18 PM
Did anyone ever made a list of monsters that lists which creatures are over- and under-CRed?

Prime32
2010-06-11, 12:18 PM
Keld! You're good at this sort of thing. Got any twinked-out mods to monsters? :smallbiggrin:

Preferably ones that are not, you know, the Tarrasque. :smalltongue:The tarrasque needs it most.


Did anyone ever made a list of monsters that lists which creatures are over- and under-CRed?Dragons are typically under-CRed.

Keld Denar
2010-06-11, 12:26 PM
Keld! You're good at this sort of thing. Got any twinked-out mods to monsters? :smallbiggrin:

The biggest abuses are just to find the monsters who's CR scales 4:1 with their HD. Animals, I believe, are such creatures, and unintelligent undead, although unintelligent undead don't get feats, IIRC. They will have a very high IL with their later HD, some even close to IL17.

Still, a dire bear who initiates Swooping Dragon Strike with Battle Jump is a VERY scary though.

One thing that I think is funny. The feat "Ability Focus" was printed in the back of the Monstrous Manual as a monster feat. Not a single monster IN the Monstrous Manual has it. Not a single one. Replace some of those Alertness or Toughness feats with Ability Focus, especially for things like Medusa and Cockatrice and Bodak, and you increase the risk they present by 10%. Alternatively, Improved Paralysis from LM on something like a Carrion Crawler or Gel Cube ups the DC by FREAKIN 4, AND stacks with Ability Focus for a 6 point increase in DC.

Prime32
2010-06-11, 12:29 PM
Improved Paralysis from LM on something like a Carrion Crawler or Gel Cube ups the DC by FREAKIN 4, AND stacks with Ability Focus for a 6 point increase in DC.You have to be undead. (http://www.realmshelps.org/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Improved_Paralysis)

Keld Denar
2010-06-11, 12:31 PM
Oh...right...yea...nothing to see here...move along.

OMG SWOOPING DRAGON DIRE BEAR BATTLE JUMP MAUL ATTACK!!!!!

afroakuma
2010-06-11, 01:39 PM
The tarrasque needs it most.

The tarrasque also gets it most. Look at those few creatures from Dungeonscape getting a sorely-needed feat overhaul. Think of all those creatures with SLAs that never got a chance to crack open Complete Arcane or the Spell Compendium. Weep for those sad little monsters who never got stances. :smallwink:


One thing that I think is funny. The feat "Ability Focus" was printed in the back of the Monstrous Manual as a monster feat. Not a single monster IN the Monstrous Manual has it. Not a single one.

Wait... what? Really? None of them? :smalleek:

And to think, that's the easiest twink of them all.

Runestar
2010-06-11, 06:13 PM
One thing that I think is funny. The feat "Ability Focus" was printed in the back of the Monstrous Manual as a monster feat. Not a single monster IN the Monstrous Manual has it.

Not true. The marut, phase spider, wyvern and hellwasp swarm do take it. :smallwink:


Dragons are typically over-CRed.

Over-cr'ed means they are weaker than their cr implies. :smallamused:

afroakuma
2010-06-11, 06:46 PM
Still, four monsters in the entire book... that's pretty bad.

afroakuma
2010-06-11, 10:34 PM
How many of you would consider it fair to slap the Darkstalker feat on your monsters?

Malakar
2010-06-11, 11:38 PM
How many of you would consider it fair to slap the Darkstalker feat on your monsters?

I just made a post about this, although it was slightly different.

I object to the Darkstalker feat in general for any purpose, Not for PCs, and not for Monsters.

For monsters, it depends on the monster, but literally anything that can is incorporeal is an automatic no, because they can always have cover, and so any PC who can't beat their hide check might as well not even be playing.

Even for other monsters, if you want it as your "But I really really want the monster to surprise attack you even though you put character resources into detection methods to prevent something from pouncing charging you for 200 damage." It can be okay if used sparingly, for lower values of 200.

But generally speaking, anything that is going to hide kite the PCs should never ever have this feat ever.

Draz74
2010-06-12, 12:00 AM
How many of you would consider it fair to slap the Darkstalker feat on your monsters?

Fine by me, as long as the monster's Hide and Move Silently checks are feasible for a character of the appropriate level (with decent Spot and Listen ranks) to beat.


Dang. If I was better with modifying monsters, I would try the couatl. Will someone do that for me, please? :smallbiggrin:

I love Couatls. Let's start talking about this direction.

First, does it keep Sorcerer casting, or switch over to manifesting? (And as an Ardent, a Psion, or a Wilder?) I could make an argument for any of these. I definitely think the Psi-Like version (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/couatlPsionic.htm) of the Couatl is more flavorful and more powerful than the Spell-Like standard version (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/couatl.htm), though.

We get to pick four feats besides Eschew Materials (which obviously is there for a reason, even if we're allowed to swap around bonus feats). Dodge is the only really crappy one, but I think I can do better than all the others there (Empower Spell, Improved Initiative, Hover). Mindsight is the most obvious choice.

The big problem with this critter is lack of focus. 4th-Level spells are not a huge threat to the party at CR 10, so the Couatl can't be a great primary spellcaster, which is why I'm dropping Empower. The bite attack could use some feat support but frankly is so low-damage I don't want to bother. Frankly the beast's best tactic is to grapple, and I don't know a good way to reliably shut down the big Freedom of Movement counter that foils all grappling. Dispel is, of course, a partial solution (and an argument in favor of going psionic, since a fully-augmented Dispel Psionics power is a lot more likely to succeed than a CL9 Dispel Magic spell).

If we're sticking with Sorcerer casting, Scintillating Scales and Arcane Sight (to detect Freedom of Movement easily) come to mind. And it would be hilarious to deck it out with some typical overpowered spells or combos, like Fell Drain Power Word: Pain.

Shame Tome of Battle had so little support for grapplers. :smallfrown:

afroakuma
2010-06-12, 12:23 AM
If we're sticking with Sorcerer casting, Scintillating Scales and Arcane Sight (to detect Freedom of Movement easily) come to mind. And it would be hilarious to deck it out with some typical overpowered spells or combos, like Fell Drain Power Word: Pain.

Couatls are good outsiders, so what about spells from the Book of Exalted Deeds? Any of those make the cut?

Even with a 4th-level casting cap, there should be some nasty spells out there that a couatl could make good use of.

Draz74
2010-06-12, 12:53 AM
Couatls are good outsiders,

They're not [Good] outsiders. Dunno if that hinders anything.

afroakuma
2010-06-12, 01:11 AM
They're not [Good] outsiders. Dunno if that hinders anything.

Well, I meant that they're good. :smalltongue: Think that authorizes them to use most of the BoED spells, unless they also need a feat for it.

Draz74
2010-06-12, 01:13 AM
Good idea. (No pun intended.) I'm not the most familiar with BoED, though, so we'll need someone else to investigate.

Runestar
2010-06-12, 04:50 AM
Frankly the beast's best tactic is to grapple, and I don't know a good way to reliably shut down the big Freedom of Movement counter that foils all grappling.

If a party is willing to spend 4-5 4th lv slots (a significant investment at 10th lv) just to counter the grappling aspect, they would already have expended resources which could have been used on other things, such as blasting the coautl or healing. So I don't think it is a bad thing is the PCs are able to neuter an ability using spells.

Any ideas for sample attack routines involving its sorc spellcasting? We can probably give it a selection of swift/attack/immediate action spells to maximize its action economy. Prebuff with mage armour, greater mirror image for defense, blasting for offense?


Think that authorizes them to use most of the BoED spells, unless they also need a feat for it.

Creatures with sorc spellcasting can't use exalted spells, IIRC. Plus, why are good-aligned creatures attacking your party (which should be good, or at least not evil)?

hamishspence
2010-06-12, 05:55 AM
It doesn't say you need a spellbook to be able to cast corrupt (or sanctified) spells- just that you need to be able to "prepare spells"

In theory, a sorcerer or bard taking Arcane Preparation, would gain the ability to make use of sanctified spells- (the ones with sacrifice components).

They might need access to it in written form though- maybe a scroll of the spell.

afroakuma
2010-06-12, 08:14 AM
If a party is willing to spend 4-5 4th lv slots (a significant investment at 10th lv) just to counter the grappling aspect, they would already have expended resources which could have been used on other things, such as blasting the coautl or healing.

Blasting isn't really the proper use of resources anyway. :smallwink:


Creatures with sorc spellcasting can't use exalted spells, IIRC.

They can't use sanctified spells. There are spells in the BoED for sorcerers that do not fall under that description. Radiant fog, for example, which is solid fog+. The abstinence components on such spells are fairly trivial to a benevolent winged snake.


Plus, why are good-aligned creatures attacking your party (which should be good, or at least not evil)?

They wouldn't exist if there was no use for them. And you've never been in an all-evils party? :smallbiggrin:

The BoED has rather a few spells that deal nonlethal damage except to evil creatures, so it covers that concern as well.

Runestar
2010-06-12, 08:26 AM
Granted, there is nothing stopping me from simply shifting the couatl's alignment to evil...:smallamused:

Point noted on the sanctified spell part. Serves me right for going off memory, especially on a book I haven't touched in ages. :smalltongue:

afroakuma
2010-06-12, 09:09 AM
Here, for your troubles, have an Exalted Couatl. :smallcool:

Couatl, Exalted
Large Outsider (Native)
HD 9d8+18 (58 hp
Speed 20 ft. (4 squares); fly 60 ft. (good)
Init: +7
AC 30 (+10 natural, +7 exalted, +3 Dex, +1 deflection, -1 size); touch 13; flat-footed 28
BAB +9; Grp +17
Attack Bite +13 melee (1d3+7 plus poison)
Full-Attack Bite +13 melee (1d3+7 plus poison)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 5 ft.
Special Attacks Constrict 2d8+7, exalted strike +1, improved grab, poison, psionics, spells
Special Qualities Darkvision 60 ft., endure elements, sustenance, mind shielding, change shape, ethereal jaunt, telepathy 90 ft.
Saves Fort +9 Ref +10 Will +11
Abilities Str 18, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 17, Wis 19, Cha 19
Skills Concentration +14, Diplomacy +20, Jump +0, Knowledge (any two) +15, Listen +16, Search +15, Sense Motive +16, Spellcraft +15 (+17 scrolls), Spot +16, Survival +4 (+6 following tracks), Tumble +15, Use Magic Device +16 (+18 scrolls)
Feats Eschew MaterialsB, Gift of FaithB, Hover, Improved Initiative, Sacred Vow, Servant of the HeavensB, Touch of Golden IceB, Vow of Poverty
Environment Warm forests
Organization Solitary, pair, or flight (3-6)
Challenge Rating 10
Treasure None
Alignment Always lawful good
Advancement 10-13 HD (Large); 14-27 HD (Huge)
Level Adjustment +7

Typical Spells Known (6/7/7/7/5; save DC 14 + spell level)

0—cure minor wounds, daze, disrupt undead, light, obscuring mist, ray of frost, read magic, resistance; 1st—grease, lantern lightBoED, mage armor, magic missile, protection from chaos; 2nd—glitterdust, ray of iceSC, scorching ray, silence; 3rd—dispel magic, magic circle against evil, summon monster III; 4th— divine power, radiant fogBoED

And I'm quite sure that could be improved upon with little to no effort. :smalltongue:

afroakuma
2010-06-12, 07:44 PM
Divine power, come to think of it, is really solid for improving the couatl's grapple/constrict routine. I rather like that they get cleric spells.

Anyone else have a suggestion on a monster to tinker with?

Runestar
2010-06-12, 09:37 PM
The various giants. Up till now, they are pretty much cookie-cutter, apart from have more HD, slightly better stats and the odd immunity/SLA here and there, there isn't really much to differentiate one from the other.

I was thinking of using feats to give each of them a more distinctive fighting style. For instance, the hill giant could be more brutish, the cloud giants more skirmishy, stone giants might be accomplished rock-throwers etc.

Thoughts? I already thought of storm giants taking the spring attack-->bounding assault feat tree in PHB2 (or do you think robilar's gambit might be better?).

Malakar
2010-06-12, 10:07 PM
For starters, give the Blink dog Greater Blink.

And... Yeah, bounding assault giants, Power Throw Giants, maybe give the Storm Giants more SLAs of cool storm stuff?

Draz74
2010-06-12, 10:39 PM
Divine power, come to think of it, is really solid for improving the couatl's grapple/constrict routine. I rather like that they get cleric spells.

+6 Strength is always nice for a grappler, of course ... but without the spell giving him a BAB boost, it feels a little underwhelming for a short-duration Level 4 buff. Bull's Strength would be a better deal.

Runestar
2010-06-12, 10:51 PM
+6 Strength is always nice for a grappler, of course ... but without the spell giving him a BAB boost, it feels a little underwhelming for a short-duration Level 4 buff. Bull's Strength would be a better deal.

There are spells which boost your grapple ability (taking a page from the grappler wizard handbook). Improved grapple (appears that a monster with natural weapons may take it without the need for IUS). From spell compendium, we have fearsome grapple (+8 grapple check), balor nimbus (6d6 fire damage to grappled foes), babau slime (1d8 damage to grappled foes) and bladeweave (daze foe you attack).

But yeah, there is still the issue of freedom of movement...:smalleek:

afroakuma
2010-06-13, 08:41 AM
How about some of the classic monsters Dungenscape missed?

Ankhegs?
Elementals?
Genies?
Gorgons?
Manticores?
Medusas?
Purple worms?
Trolls?
Wraiths?