Vow of Poverty - overpowered or underpowered

[Cogidubnus]

I've been helping a friend build a VoP monk. How would people EXPECT it to perform?

[Prime32]

The benefits of VoP are weaker than what you could buy with your WBL, and you have to give up two feats to get it. Monks are one of the weakest classes in the game. That should answer your question.


What does your friend want from this character? Because "dependence on items" is a flavour thing. If he wants to punch people in the face, any class can do that.

If you must do this, at least give the monk the white dragonspawn template for free.

[AstralFire]

VoP:
Performs Well In: Low or no-magic item campaign where most of the enemies are not monsters and are classed as weaker casters or melee, also with few magic items. Also on Incarnum.
Performs Poorly In: Everything else.

Monk:
Performs Well In: Low or no-magic item campaign where most of the enemies are not monsters and are classed as weaker casters or melee, also with few magic items, and just about no serious optimization.
Performs Poorly In: Everything else.

Overpowered in an extremely rare case if the stars align and the monk player is considerably better at optimization than his fellows. On par more often, but still rarely. Underpowered in overwhelming majority of circumstances.

[Lev]

I've been helping a friend build a VoP monk. How would people EXPECT it to perform?
For a straight out monk using no items it's pretty much rigged, the debate is that at high levels the lack of magic item utilities due to the christmastree effect diminishes the overall usefulness of the build, to the point that as soon as a CR15+ flying caster comes around it pretty much counters you unless you are built to defend against it with certain ranged unarmed attacks in certain sourcebooks.

Personally I don't see any problem with it in theory, but I think that anyone playing a VoP monk should just give the list to the DM and the DM decides what bonuses you are granted and when as the biggest problem with VoP is that it takes the entire concept of how you obtain gear out of the control of the DM which in that respect is what it "can" be considered munchkining.

[Gnaritas]

I do not consider the VoP weak, but neither overpowered.
The Monk is a pretty weak class.

Depending on the optimization of your group he will most likely end up underpowered.

[BobVosh]

That said the VoP on a druid is fairly strong, and reasonably fits the flavor if done right. Still not as good as actual WBL, but druid casting and wild shape makes up for what VoP doesn't provide (the biggest being a way to fly)

[Cogidubnus]

What you say is true, I've just heard conflicting views of it. We know monks are weak, but thought it'd be a fun challenge. As it stands, if you fight this guy and have a poor Fort save, you're doomed. And if your attacks have less than a +15, you're not likely to hit him.
And we thought about VoP druids, but when he suggested it the idea got put down hard XD.

[Prime32]

The only DMs I've seen who consider VoP overpowered are the ones who keep having the PCs' equipment stolen even if it should not be possible, or the ones who ignore Wealth-by-Level and force fighters to use non-magical swords at level 10 (this doesn't work, since the rules are balanced as if magical swords are a class feature for fighters).


What you say is true, I've just heard conflicting views of it. We know monks are weak, but thought it'd be a fun challenge. As it stands, if you fight this guy and have a poor Fort save, you're doomed. And if your attacks have less than a +15, you're not likely to hit him.What level is he? And what about his touch AC?

[BobVosh]

+15 to hit at what level? Thats not a hard target number at level 8+

[Smiling Knight]

This is a situation where it would be appropriate to quote the famous rebel leader Ackbar's most famous treatise on the nature of Imperial plots, "It is a trap."

Example:
"Muhahaha! I am a fifteenth level VoP monk. Nothing can stop me!"

Enemy drinks potion of fly, potion of invisibility.
Lulz.


Tell your friend to take unarmed swordsage instead.

Edit: Gaaag, I've been multi-swordsaged!

[AstralFire]

What you say is true, I've just heard conflicting views of it. We know monks are weak, but thought it'd be a fun challenge. As it stands, if you fight this guy and have a poor Fort save, you're doomed. And if your attacks have less than a +15, you're not likely to hit him.

First:

What level is he?


Second: You mean if you fight this guy and

have a poor fort save
don't have a great AC
are not flying
are not a tripping reach monster
are one of the creature types that stunning fist works on
don't have any source of critical hit immunity

you're doomed.

(For a quick fix, make Stunning Fist always work if they fail their save DC, against anything. That alone helps the monk tremendously, though not enough.)

[Grumman]

How about a VoP Unarmed Swordsage? Or a VoP Fist of the Forest / Sacred Fist? Would either of those work better?

[Cogidubnus]

He's level 6 and most of his opponents are going to be stealth PCs. It's for the Assassins vs Bodyguards campaign that's going on, so I won't post his sheet up.

Ed: Also, Stunning Fist is his last resort for special attacks. So you can be immune to it all you want XD

[Lev]

Sometimes I feel out of place on these forums, like I'm an outcast for never gaining more than 10 levels in any campaign ever.

[Gnaritas]

What you say is true, I've just heard conflicting views of it. We know monks are weak, but thought it'd be a fun challenge. As it stands, if you fight this guy and have a poor Fort save, you're doomed. And if your attacks have less than a +15, you're not likely to hit him.
And we thought about VoP druids, but when he suggested it the idea got put down hard XD.

Using the word "Doomed" and "Monk" is correct in most cases, not this time.

By the way, would a normal Druid be allowed?

[Prime32]

Sometimes I feel out of place on these forums, like I'm an outcast for never gaining more than 10 levels in any campaign ever.You don't have to start at lv1... :smallconfused:


(For a quick fix, make Stunning Fist always work if they fail their save DC, against anything. That alone helps the monk tremendously, though not enough.)Also, let a monk apply Flurry to standard attacks as well as full attacks so that he can actually use his speed.

[Cogidubnus]

Using the word "Doomed" and "Monk" is correct in most cases, not this time.

By the way, would a normal Druid be allowed?

Thought about it, still are thinking about it, just thought we'd build this for fun first. Reckon it is workable, particularly as he'll be teaming up with my Warblade and our other ally, who I think is some type of artificer.

[Cogidubnus]

You don't have to start at lv1... :smallconfused:

Most of the time I start at level 5-7. Level 1 is BAD.

[Badgerish]

If you follow recommended wealth-by-level, VoP is underpowered. Also, if you can't fly, VoP is underpowered (as it's something you need at higher levels and difficult to get without magic or items).

If you under notably under wealth-by-level, VoP can be overpowered. There are still notable holes in what it provides, so being a druid is recommended.

However, before you even start to consider VoP, read and re-read the feat 'sacred vow' and the description of 'Exalted Good'. I've never played/played with/GMed a character who could sustain that alignment.

[Starbuck_II]

If DM short charges you in wealth by level: VoP is useful.

[Optimystik]

If DM short charges you in wealth by level: VoP is useful.

Even that depends on your class, since a cleric/wizard with low WBL is still more useful than a cleric/wizard with VoP.

[huttj509]

There is one situation where VoP is unarguably useful.

If you have your heart dead set on a character who forsakes all worldly goods, and you're not already getting some sort of inherent bonuses to compensate for that. In that case VoP is much better than nothing.

Beyond that it's sorta hard to judge without knowing the campaign details. The balance shifts between 'it's OK' at low levels to 'Wait, you expected to do something? Hahahahaha!" at higher levels. As mentioned above, flight is a key example of something VoP simply does not give, and is a game changer when it becomes available.

[balistafreak]

Vow of Poverty is more useful when you take a decidedly liberal reading of the text and use it to "trump" the table, giving you a bonus generic feat instead of a bonus exalted feat. Let's face it, there's only three or four exalted feats that actually do anything, and not all of them go with the same character concept. You'll generally only want one of them, and that's what the 1st level "bonus exalted feat" (which unlike the even-level ones is clear that it has to be exalted) is for. Touch of Golden Ice, for example, is hilarious on a Totemist.

Combined with a little a heaping mound of optimization on race/class builds (usually involving a caster-type class of some sort) you can circumvent most of the VoP's glaring problems and have an actual playable character.

However, note that if you combined the optimization with actual WBL, you'd be far better, and probably would break some campaigns. Consider the VoP a restraining bolt. :smallwink:

Money is options. Options are power. Forcing yourself to give up an entire world of options in return for some flat bonuses is always a bad idea.

Unless you're constantly thrown naked into jail-cells, but I think you have another problem then.

[Optimystik]

Unless you're constantly thrown naked into jail-cells, but I think you have another problem then.

Since my characters are generally psionicists - no, I have no problem with being naked in jail.

(or dropping the soap...)

[Lycanthromancer]

Since my characters are generally psionicists - no, I have no problem with being naked in jail.

(or dropping the soap...)Bubba the Half-Ogre: "Say hello to my not so little friend.

[Hendel]

I played a mid-level Paladin/Monk with the Vow of Poverty and I even went down the path of the Vow of Non-violence.

My DM could not hurt me because my AC was so high and I could make any save he threw my way. The problem was that I could do very little to the bad guys. I could hit, but not as much as the fighter. I could do damage, but not as much as the caster. It just seemed like I would charge to the front of the battle and then spend the entire fight doing enough damage to eventually wear the bad guy down, but in the meantime the rest of the party got pulverized.

I would sometimes have to go around and start rescuing the various party members as I found myself more effective at that.

So, I do not think I was over-powered, my DM does. I think that I just traded off a strength for a weakness. Almost invulnerability versus lack of combat effectiveness.

[Telonius]

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Vow of Poverty is not about making a super-powerful character. It's about turning a concept that otherwise would be unplayable, into something at least approaching playable. If you're approaching it as a means to power, you're approaching it in exactly the wrong way - both mechanically and in terms of character development.

[true_shinken]

Vow of Poverty is only broken when applied to animal companions, special mounts and the like.

[balistafreak]

Vow of Poverty is only broken when applied to animal companions, special mounts and the like.

I fully expect a (semi) derail about whether or not you can give up something you've never had, and a thousand different ways you can "realize" it only to lose it in the next five seconds.

Does intelligence imply property rights?

This is a rhetorical question.

More game related, something for (usually) free isn't always broken. See ACFs, for example. Most of the good ones involve throwing away something useless for something good. VoP on normally non-possesive creatures is kind of like that.

[ChrisFortyTwo]

I played a VoP cleric of Fharlangn (I can never spell that) with the Travel domain.

I had a lot of fun with the game, but the DM and I talked about what was expected. I relied on my party members to cast spells on me (as one should), and I cast spells as appropriate. There are a number of exalted feats that work well for clerics (especailly some of the other vows, if you want to play that kind of character). He also had a house rule at later levels that I could take divine feats from Complete Divine as bonus feats. It was a good house rule, and fell within the idea of VoP.

I wouldn't say I was overpowered, but I tend to be a bad judge of such things. It was a small group, which means we all had to be a little more optimized.

I wrote up a few various levels of VoP monk, just to see what he could do, and without party support, it was ok. As was said before, if you want to play that kind of character, do it, but if you are looking for optimization, try something else.

I can see the benefits of a VoP Druid, but it seems that they are just riding the CoDzilla train. With WBL or even a mid to low-magic game, a Druid can probably do better with items.

[ShadowsGrnEyes]

I have played a character through an entire game who had VOP. I find it very helpfull when you are playing a class with a difficult restriction. . . like the healer. . . thus 2 bad's made one not actually terrible. . .

Being exalted opened up the Sanctified spell list to my healer, so she didn't suck quite so much. . . and I was a healer so pretty much all of the stat damage from the sanctified spells was irrelevant.

Being VOP threw the trouble of a healers armor restrictions out the window and gave me all sorts of random usefull side things. . .

I will say that my DM was lenient bent one VoP rule which allowed my character to use magic items like wands and 1 use or trigger items, simply not own them or use them for my own benefit. (basically I could grab the paladins healing wand if I was out of spells and use it on the wizard, and I didn't loose all benefits of VoP if I tripped on a magical item and accidently triggered it.)

it does not make you powerful, it can make you weak, it DOES makes an otherwise impossible-to-play-in-dnd concept playable.

[Zombieboots]

VoP is either two things either incredible underpowered (most situations) or incredible overpowered (Low-magic Campaigns). Those two scenarios alone seem to scream do not take this feat.

This Monk character is also an "Assassin" for some sort? So an exalted character is an Assassin. If playing under the normal Book of Exalted Deeds rules that should quickly strip away the feat away unless the targets as exceptional evil or you are ignoring the exalted feat description.

Either way in your reply posts you seem so adamant that this character will "Rocks!" when 15+ people have suggested that you do not take it. Why bother posting? Just take it and have fun, if that's all you want to do.

[G3N3R3L GHOST]

My findings are very similar to everyone else. VoP is good for certain things but not others. I would definitely not call it overpowered regardless though. Probably the most successful use of it that I had was with character made from the Magic of Incarnum source book. Binding soulmelds to your various chakras keeps magic items low unless you burn feats etc etc. So VoP synergizes well with that. But other than that its pretty balanced depending on the situation.

[Pluto]

At low levels, it's pretty good.

Around levels 5-9, magic becomes increasingly meaningful and by ~10, you should probably expect a VoP character to have some serious troubles. Same goes for any magic-deficient character.

It can also be decent for higher level characters in one-shot adventures. In those cases, taking it in a higher-level feat slot (after blowing wealth on tomes/grafts and other permanent-effect items) can yield viable results. The main problems are the dubious ethics involved and poor scaling with further character advancement.

[Mauther]

Vow of Poverty is only broken when applied to animal companions, special mounts and the like.

Best use of VoP: Sanctified Red Dragon with a VoP. Put it in front of a group of kill first ask questions later PCs. Congrats, you killed a very powerful red dragon! A very good, very powerful red dragon! A very good, very powerful red dragon and so you get NOTHING! You lose! GOOD DAY, SIR!(prefereablly said like Gene Wilder at the end of Willy Wonka) as a bonus, if they complain you get to add the "I said Good Day Sir!"

Anyways, my group generally considers VoP a death sentence. Every variation we've ever tried has died, died horribly, and usually in a method easily preventable with basic wealth. Lack of a healing potion, lack of a material compoents for a vital spell, etc. Its a nice concept, but as others have said it restrict versatility, and that tends to be the most valuable.

[Optimystik]

Bubba the Half-Ogre: "Say hello to my not so little friend.

Oh gods, he has Reach...


I played a VoP cleric of Fharlangn (I can never spell that) with the Travel domain.

I had a lot of fun with the game, but the DM and I talked about what was expected. I relied on my party members to cast spells on me (as one should), and I cast spells as appropriate.

Not trying to upturn your campaign or anything, but how did you cast spells without a divine focus?

[Lans]

If you can dip 2 totemist or 2 incarnate or both it will help greatly.

[Dr.Epic]

Considering they don't get armor and weapons are useless when they have fist VoP is definitely the way to go.

[Amphetryon]

You have VoP. You're the subject of an unlucky critical hit, and perish.

Who pays for your Raise Dead?

[Choco]

VoP is awesome for campaigns where you constantly find yourself in AMF's/dead magic zones :smalltongue:

[The Glyphstone]

I'm pretty sure you're allowed to have spells cast on you or on your behalf if other people pay for them. So let's hope your friends liked you before you bit it.


VoP is awesome for campaigns where you constantly find yourself in AMF's/dead magic zones :smalltongue:

..I think the Vow is considered Supernatural....if it is, nope...

[Choco]

..I think the Vow is considered Supernatural....if it is, nope...

Only the AC bonuses, Exalted Strike, DR, and True Seeing are marked as supernatural. The rest is Exceptional.

[olentu]

Only the AC bonuses, Exalted Strike, DR, and True Seeing are marked as supernatural. The rest is Exceptional.

I think the question is just what the passage that says that all exalted feats are supernatural in nature rather then being extraordinary abilities as most feats are means.

[The Glyphstone]

Only the AC bonuses, Exalted Strike, DR, and True Seeing are marked as supernatural. The rest is Exceptional.

Hm, indeed. Though, you're left with:

Endure Elements.
No need to eat or drink, or possibly breathe.
+1 to +3 on saving throws.
Ability score boosts.
+1 to +2 natural armor.
Immunity to Detect spells.
Energy Resistance 5 or 15.
Freedom of Movement.
Slow Regeneration.

So...you're slightly better at resisting poisons/diseases than your non-vowed friends, you can't be grappled, and you can stand in nonmagical fire without penalty. Whee?

[Thurbane]

Obviously, VoP works best for classes that aren't very gear dependent, and also for creature types that struggle with gear anyway. It's a nice bonus to your Awakened Wolf Binder, for example. :smalltongue:

[The Cat Goddess]

Not trying to upturn your campaign or anything, but how did you cast spells without a divine focus?

Well, there's a feat for certain clerics called "Worldly Focus" in FR...

Or you can just house-rule that a simply carved piece of wood would work fine as a "divine focus".

[Lycanthromancer]

Or you can just house-rule that a simply carved piece of wood would work fine as a "divine focus".That's still not an allowed item.

Stupid, yes, but RAW.

[DragoonWraith]

RAI, too. There was an article where the author specifically mentions the inability to get a focus or spellbook was intended...

[The Glyphstone]

Isn't there some option somewhere about having your focus tattooed on your body?

[ShadowsGrnEyes]

You have VoP. You're the subject of an unlucky critical hit, and perish.

Who pays for your Raise Dead?

Your party takes the money out of the pile you had set aside to donate to the next worthy charity you saw. . .

Belive it or not if you have VOP you still get your share of treasure. . . you just cant use it for yourself. . . says so right in the rules. . .if your dead, your party can obviously extract the money they have to spend to resurect you from your share. you didnt do anything to break your personal rules and any exalted vop charater would refuse the parties money anyway.

[Aharon]

Random thought:
If you spend all your WBL on grafts and inherent bonuses and other stuff you can't give away, and take VoP as your last feat (say, 12th if the game starts at 13th), would that make VoP more or less worthwhile?

[taltamir]

VoP:
Performs Well In: Low or no-magic item campaign where most of the enemies are not monsters and are classed as weaker casters or melee, also with few magic items. Also on Incarnum.
Performs Poorly In: Everything else.

Monk:
Performs Well In: Low or no-magic item campaign where most of the enemies are not monsters and are classed as weaker casters or melee, also with few magic items, and just about no serious optimization.
Performs Poorly In: Everything else.

Overpowered in an extremely rare case if the stars align and the monk player is considerably better at optimization than his fellows. On par more often, but still rarely. Underpowered in overwhelming majority of circumstances.

I disagree with both the "perform well in" assessments.
With the Vow of Poverty performs well in assessment because Vow of Poverty prohibits you from playing a caster, and casters will absolutely DOMINATE any campaign where magic items are limited. (Limiting magic items massively hinders non casters and is a huge boon to casters)

With the Monk assessment because it still performs more poorly then most other classes in the situation you described. (especially casters, but other classes as well).

That being said, if you insist on playing a class with no magic at all (and decide the monk's Chi doesn't count but a ranger's ability do, for example), and you are playing that in a "no magic items" world... then and only then would a VoP be "useful"... however, using it in such a way is super cheesy. I would only play VoP if you literally want to roleplay a VoP, it has no room in any charOp.

As for "punching people in the face well" or "grappling well"... a fighter, paladin, or even barbarian with the right feats (which they actually get!) is better then the monk at that... grapple is based off of BAB which monk is poor at, unarmed fighting still needs bab, which monk is poor at... monks have poor HD as well... the only thing monks have going for them is the extra saves (not enough to matter). They also get a plethora of "abilities" but they all suck.


Random thought:
If you spend all your WBL on grafts and inherent bonuses and other stuff you can't give away, and take VoP as your last feat (say, 12th if the game starts at 13th), would that make VoP more or less worthwhile?

How would you spend your WBL on grafts? you are not allowed to buy them with any money you keep without violating the VOP...
Heck you are not even allowed to drink a healing potion (unless someone else pours it down your throat without you asking them to)

[Yuki Akuma]

Vow of Poverty allows you to play as a Bard, Sorcerer or Druid just fine. Just take Eschew Materials and avoid taking spells with expensive material components.

[taltamir]

Vow of Poverty allows you to play as a Bard, Sorcerer or Druid just fine. Just take Eschew Materials and avoid taking spells with expensive material components.

Good point. Although, does the VOP have an exception for a bard's musical instrument that I do not recall?
Also, some of the best spells in the game have a material component though.

You are severely limited by it, even in a low magic world you would still get ahold of things like a wand of CLW or a healing potion or something. And you can't with VOP.
Also you lose the familiar (can't consume the 100gp worth of ingredients)

I guess you could use the eidetic wizard ACF (trade familiar and ability to use a spellbook for using your own mind as a spellbook, scribing a new spell costs 100gp in magical incense... except for the 2 spells gained on levelup) with eschew materials as well.

[Aharon]

@Taltamir
Well, the usual way to build a VoP character is taking the feat at first level, to get all the exalted feats. But if you take it at a later level, you can spend your money on whatever you want, until you take it, can't you?
You won't get the feats, but you will get the bonuses The Glyphstone listed, which is worth a bit.
And wings that are/have become part of your body don't really constitute property, although you paid for getting them.
I know it's sketchy, as I said, it was a random thought crossing my mind.

[Greenish]

Although, does the VOP have an exception for a bard's musical instrument that I do not recall?Sing. Mime. Orate. Dance. Drop a (wild) ferret down your pants.

[Yuki Akuma]

Good point. Although, does the VOP have an exception for a bard's musical instrument that I do not recall?

Perform (Sing).

[tyckspoon]

Good point. Although, does the VOP have an exception for a bard's musical instrument that I do not recall?
Also, some of the best spells in the game have a material component though.


His voice? Yes, I'm pretty sure VoP allows people to speak- Sing and Oratory are specific options given for alternate Performs that work with Bardic Music. RAI, you could probably go with anything that has a significant auditory aspect. Tap Dance, maybe.

[AstralFire]

I disagree with both the "perform well in" assessments.
With the Vow of Poverty performs well in assessment because Vow of Poverty prohibits you from playing a caster, and casters will absolutely DOMINATE any campaign where magic items are limited. (Limiting magic items massively hinders non casters and is a huge boon to casters)

You're still performing better than any non-crafter under the same rules.


With the Monk assessment because it still performs more poorly then most other classes in the situation you described. (especially casters, but other classes as well).

Performing well in a very restricted situation is not the same as outperforming.

[taltamir]

You're still performing better than any non-crafter under the same rules.
A non crafter wizard will quite assuredly be better. Even without a cent to his name... (I played some :P).
But with enough ACFs and shenanigans you could play a wizard with VoP though which I have not considered when making said statement.
Also, you could be a druid with VoP; certainly playable. And if there is not WBL, not wealth at all, and no crafting allowed then the druid would indeed be made more powerful via a VoP.


Performing well in a very restricted situation is not the same as outperforming.
Maybe we have different definitions of well, but if you craft the absolutely most advantageous situation for your monk and he is still outperformed by better classes then he is not "performing well". He is performing poorly.

[Pluto]

@Taltamir
Well, the usual way to build a VoP character is taking the feat at first level, to get all the exalted feats. But if you take it at a later level, you can spend your money on whatever you want, until you take it, can't you?
You won't get the feats, but you will get the bonuses The Glyphstone listed, which is worth a bit.
And wings that are/have become part of your body don't really constitute property, although you paid for getting them.
I know it's sketchy, as I said, it was a random thought crossing my mind.
Like I said upthread, that works moderately well for the few levels after you take it, but it scales poorly (at level 18, you'd be ~200k below appropriate wealth if you took VoP at level 12). And Grafts/tomes/etc. are typically fairly expensive for their effects, so you'd probably end up even further behind.

[Aharon]

@Pluto
Sorry, didn't notice your post. That's what I suspected, thanks :smallsmile: