[AD&D/OSRIC] Some questions (players or prospective players in my ToEE game stay out)

[Thelas]

Hello, Matthew.

Consider a character with THAC0 19 (or the equivalent, since I don't think OSRIC uses THAC0, technically). If he attacks an enemy with AC of -3, but has a +1 bonus to hit, does he hit on a 19 or only a 20?
The ToEE module includes directions that "If the players do [foo], a 10th level assassin will be dispatched to attempt to kill them." or similar. Is there any easy source for stats for these sort of non-statted NPCs or do I have to stat it myself?
One attack (in the very first area of the moathouse, iirc) has its range listed as 3 inches, while everything else there is in feet. Is this a typo or intentional?


I think that's about all.

[TricksyAndFalse]

A 19 will not hit.
There is no easy source, though there is not nearly as much variance in characters as there is in a 3.X or 4E game. One 10th level assassin pretty much looks like any other 10th level assassin. Picking out reasonable gear will be your biggest difficulty.
The PHB measured everything in inches as a hold-over from the games origins as a minis game. There is a conversion in the PHB (IIRC) which converts physical tabletop inches into in-game feet. I'll bet the author meant to convert everything into the in-game feet for you, and missed that one.

[nedz]

Who is Matthew?

Consider a character with THAC0 19 (or the equivalent, since I don't think OSRIC uses THAC0, technically). If he attacks an enemy with AC of -3, but has a +1 bonus to hit, does he hit on a 19 or only a 20?
THAC0 19 hits AC -3 on a 19--3 = 22, so even with a +1 the character needs a natural 20

The ToEE module includes directions that "If the players do [foo], a 10th level assassin will be dispatched to attempt to kill them." or similar. Is there any easy source for stats for these sort of non-statted NPCs or do I have to stat it myself?
These are very easy to do in 2E

One attack (in the very first area of the moathouse, iirc) has its range listed as 3 inches, while everything else there is in feet. Is this a typo or intentional?

2E is a skirmish system rather than the board game which is 3E
3 inches converts to different distances dependant upon whether you are inside or outside. IIRC its 30 feet inside and 30 yards (90 feet) outside, but you can check this in the PH.

[Matthew]

Hello, Matthew.

Hello, and good afternoon!




Consider a character with THAC0 19 (or the equivalent, since I don't think OSRIC uses THAC0, technically). If he attacks an enemy with AC of -3, but has a +1 bonus to hit, does he hit on a 19 or only a 20?


Excellent question, and a subject of some considerable debate. The key passage in the DMG is probably this one:



PROGRESSION ON THE COMBAT TABLES

A quick glance at the progression of numbers on the COMBAT TABLES will reveal that 20 is repeated. This reflects the fact that a 20 indicates a "perfect" hit. It also incidentally helps to assure that opponents with high armour class value are not "hit proof" in most cases. Should any DM find that this system offends his or her sensibilities, the following modification is suggested: Consider the repeated 20 as a perfectly-aimed attack which does not gain any benefit from strength or magical properties of any sort - spell, missile, or weapon. That is, the 20 must be attained by a roll of natural 20. All bonuses accrue only up to and including a total of 20, so that even if a character attacked with a bonus for strength of +3 and a +3 magic sword he or she would have to roll a natural 20 in order to score a hit on any creature normally hit by the second or successive repetitions of 20, i.e. the bonus (+3 in the example) could not exceed a total score of 20 unless an actual 20 is rolled. Thus, the COMBAT TABLES could be amended to read like this:


21 (natural 20 plus at least + 1 bonus)
20 (natural)
20 (natural)
20 (natural)
20 (natural)
20 (natural)
20 (die result + bonuses to total)
19 (die result + bonuses to total)


This then gives the advantage of allowing creatures to hit and be hit, yet it
denies any undue advantages, as the second and all successive 20s, as
well as all "to hit" scores above 20 require a natural die roll of 20.





The ToEE module includes directions that "If the players do [foo], a 10th level assassin will be dispatched to attempt to kill them." or similar. Is there any easy source for stats for these sort of non-statted NPCs or do I have to stat it myself?


Best place to look is TSR 9031 The Rogue's Gallery, but I believe Kellri includes a version for OSRIC in one of his big net books, probably Stat Block References (http://kellri.truculent.org/CDD%231%20-%20Statblock%20Reference.pdf) [edit] Nope, must be Encounters Reference (http://kellri.truculent.org/CDD%234%20-%20ENCOUNTERS%20Reference.pdf).




One attack (in the very first area of the moathouse, iirc) has its range listed as 3 inches, while everything else there is in feet. Is this a typo or intentional?


As mentioned above, some measurements are given in inches, particularly weapon ranges, as they change between indoor and outdoor encounters (annoyingly).

[Thelas]

Multi-classing question time.


Multi-classing, which is an option available only to non-human characters, is simultaneous advancement in two or more different classes. Dual-classing, an option available only to human characters, is the ability to switch classes and begin advancing exclusively in a new character class. Specific information about the interaction of the restrictions and abilities of a multi-classed character are described in the racial description of each race. Gnomish multi-classed characters are, for example, limited to leather armour in order to cast spells, while elven multi-classed characters are not. These restrictions reflect the particular nature of the non-human races and thus are detailed in the race descriptions. There is a general rule, however, that a cleric/fighter may use edged weapons. When a non-human character has more than one character class, any experience points gained by the character will be divided evenly between these two classes, even once the character can no longer progress in one of the classes.
When the character advances in one of his or her classes, additional hit points are determined by rolling the appropriate die (d4 for magic users and illusionists, d6 for thieves and assassins, etc.), adding the appropriate constitution modifier, and dividing by the number of classes involved (so two for a cleric/thief, or three for a fighter/cleric/magic user, for example).
It is therefore entirely possible for a multi-class character to be at different levels of experience in different classes. As an extreme example, a half-orcish cleric/assassin of level 4/15 is possible.

The entry doesn't, as far as I know, specifically state this, so I'm just confirming this.
- THAC0 and saves take the better class's table, they don't add or average.
A bit more likely for my answer to be wrong:
- Consider a multi-classed or dual-classed character reincarnated into a body of a different race. What happens?

[Matthew]

Multi-classing question time.

The entry doesn't, as far as I know, specifically state this, so I'm just confirming this.
- THAC0 and saves take the better class's table, they don't add or average.

Yes, indeed.



A bit more likely for my answer to be wrong:
- Consider a multi-classed or dual-classed character reincarnated into a body of a different race. What happens?

Well, if a character is reincarnated as a Boar, then he loses all previous abilities and acquires the ability of a boar, although he recalls the majority of his former life. I imagine something similar happens to a multi classed elf reincarnated as a human, but the DMG urges leniency:



Reincarnation: Regardless of the form of the creature in which the character is reincarnated, allow the new form to progress as far as possible in characteristics and abilities. For example, a badger character could grow to giant size, have maximum hit points, plus bonus points for a high constitution, and the intelligence level of its former character. A centaur reincarnation might eventually gain hit dice up to 5, 6, 7, or even 8, and it would be eligible to wear armour, use magic items, etc.

[Thelas]

Okay, a bunch of this is probably answered in the real 1e PHB, but I only have OSRIC, so question time.
Please confirm these assumptions:

The Strength bonus to hit applies only to melee weapons.
The Strength bonus to damage applies to melee and thrown weapons (but not missiles).
A character that fails a Survive Resurrection/Raise Dead check is permanently dead, the spell doesn't just fail.
A dwarf that uses his stone-related skills that fails gets a wrong answer, not no answer.
Exceptional strength is determined after racial adjustments, so a half-orc with a rolled 17 STR can roll for exceptional if he's a fighter.
A saving throw is always failed on a natural 1. (For example, a 19+ level cleric has a save vs. death of 2. If he gets a +1 bonus to his save, he still fails a roll on a 1.)
A high priest typically charges 1000 gp for a raise dead, I believe. How much for a resurrection and how much would a druid charge for a reincarnate?
There will be PC death in ToEE, and a lot of it, even with a party of 8 or so.
What is the mechanical effect of the titles "Mage" and "Archmage" on the M-U table? OSRIC says they removed all titles that don't have a mechanical effect, but I don't see an effect for these.
Bastard swords and spears count as one-handed weapons and can be double-specialized.
A thief of 10th or greater level reading scrolls has to roll on the magic-user "understand spells" table each time, but a magic-user doing so has to roll only once per spell, even if they have several scrolls of it.
A magic-user rolls for random spells after they choose their one spell of their own choice, and they are permitted a reroll if they roll a spell they already chose.
XP awards for monsters slain and gold found are split among the entire party (including hirelings). Fractions are kept as fractions, not truncated.
A cleric may turn undead as often as he wants, but only once per round and once they fail in an encounter they can't do it any more. A 'failure' is defined as not affecting a single undead (or I guess paladins).
Shouldn't matter, but... a Good cleric can turn anti-paladins, and an anti-paladin can turn good paladins?


Also, would you recommend the optional rule about fighters that require a negative score to hit their target being able to convert the negative requirement to a positive bonus to damage?

Please note that "he" is used instead of "he or she", not out of sexism, but because I'm lazy.

[LibraryOgre]

Easier to not use the quote thingy; apologies.

The Strength bonus to hit applies only to melee weapons.

Technically, it also applies to hurled weapons.

The Strength bonus to damage applies to melee and thrown weapons (but not missiles).

Mostly; those with specially made bows can apply their damage bonuses to bow shots.

A character that fails a Survive Resurrection/Raise Dead check is permanently dead, the spell doesn't just fail.

Yes.

A dwarf that uses his stone-related skills that fails gets a wrong answer, not no answer.

I would say "No answer", myself.

Exceptional strength is determined after racial adjustments, so a half-orc with a rolled 17 STR can roll for exceptional if he's a fighter.

Correct.

A saving throw is always failed on a natural 1. (For example, a 19+ level cleric has a save vs. death of 2. If he gets a +1 bonus to his save, he still fails a roll on a 1.)

I am not sure; I do not believe this is correct, though.

A high priest typically charges 1000 gp for a raise dead, I believe. How much for a resurrection and how much would a druid charge for a reincarnate?

I'm not sure; I don't think it is specified in 1e, but it may be in 2e (which I don't have access to right now.

There will be PC death in ToEE, and a lot of it, even with a party of 8 or so.

Unless they are extremely, bordering on cheating, lucky, this is correct.

What is the mechanical effect of the titles "Mage" and "Archmage" on the M-U table? OSRIC says they removed all titles that don't have a mechanical effect, but I don't see an effect for these.

There isn't one.

Bastard swords and spears count as one-handed weapons and can be double-specialized.

I believe so, yes.

A thief of 10th or greater level reading scrolls has to roll on the magic-user "understand spells" table each time, but a magic-user doing so has to roll only once per spell, even if they have several scrolls of it.

Not quite; IIRC, the thief just has to roll their 85% chance to case the spell correctly.

A magic-user rolls for random spells after they choose their one spell of their own choice, and they are permitted a reroll if they roll a spell they already chose.

I believe it is the other way around; they roll randomly, and then choose.

XP awards for monsters slain and gold found are split among the entire party (including hirelings). Fractions are kept as fractions, not truncated.

In many cases, hirelings and henchmen receive lesser XP shares than the rest of the party (usually half shares). So a party of 4 PCs and 8 henchmen would have 8 shares, either each PC getting a full share, and each henchman getting a half.

A cleric may turn undead as often as he wants, but only once per round and once they fail in an encounter they can't do it any more. A 'failure' is defined as not affecting a single undead (or I guess paladins).

True.

Shouldn't matter, but... a Good cleric can turn anti-paladins, and an anti-paladin can turn good paladins?

I do not know about anti-paladins, but evil clerics can turn paladins; they are counted as having their level in HD.


Also, would you recommend the optional rule about fighters that require a negative score to hit their target being able to convert the negative requirement to a positive bonus to damage?

I like it.

[Matthew]

The Strength bonus to hit applies only to melee weapons.

Technically, it also applies to hurled weapons.

Mark is thinking of second edition. In first edition strength applies to melee hit rolls and damage only, unless you have weapons specially made to take advantage of the strength of the user, in which it also applies to thrown or missile weapons. How these weapons are obtained is at the behest of the game master.





The Strength bonus to damage applies to melee and thrown weapons (but not missiles).

Mostly; those with specially made bows can apply their damage bonuses to bow shots.

This is also the second edition answer, though actually second edition gets itself a bit confused on the issue. In the PHB bows only have to be special to take advantage of exceptional strength, in later supplements any strength bonus. Interestingly, these questions were recently put to Steve Winters and David Cook, who expressed surprise as to what the rules said regarding this, but again that is second edition.





A character that fails a Survive Resurrection/Raise Dead check is permanently dead, the spell doesn't just fail.

Yes.

Agreed.





A dwarf that uses his stone-related skills that fails gets a wrong answer, not no answer.

I would say "No answer", myself.

Whatever the game master decides.





Exceptional strength is determined after racial adjustments, so a half-orc with a rolled 17 STR can roll for exceptional if he's a fighter.

Correct.

Yes, and notice this also applies to age modifiers to strength, and exceptional strength applies also to subclasses of fighter (paladin and ranger).





A saving throw is always failed on a natural 1. (For example, a 19+ level cleric has a save vs. death of 2. If he gets a +1 bonus to his save, he still fails a roll on a 1.)

I am not sure; I do not believe this is correct, though.

As far as I know, this is correct. However, it is by no means set in stone, the text says "A roll of 1 is always failure, regardless of magical protections, spells, or any other reasons which indicate to the contrary." and that a "natural" roll of 1 is meant is the most common understanding.





A high priest typically charges 1000 gp for a raise dead, I believe. How much for a resurrection and how much would a druid charge for a reincarnate?

I'm not sure; I don't think it is specified in 1e, but it may be in 2e (which I don't have access to right now.

As I understand it, Raise Dead is 1,000 GP, plus 500 GP per caster level. No cost is given for Resurrection, but we are probably talking 10,000 GP or so, given that Regeneration is 15,000 and Restore 10,000. I would be inlcined to just set prices that seemed reasonable.





There will be PC death in ToEE, and a lot of it, even with a party of 8 or so.

Unless they are extremely, bordering on cheating, lucky, this is correct.

Could well be.





What is the mechanical effect of the titles "Mage" and "Archmage" on the M-U table? OSRIC says they removed all titles that don't have a mechanical effect, but I don't see an effect for these.

There isn't one.

Actually, some magical items require an "Archmage" or a "High Priest", but that is very corner case.





Bastard swords and spears count as one-handed weapons and can be double-specialized.

I believe so, yes.

It is never stated, so up to you to decide. Sage Advice said more or less the same thing back in the day, but also mentioned that in "one local campaign" two proficiencies were required for the bastard sword. The spear has three weights, which correspond to the Swords & Spells supplement, which might suggest the same sort of thing as "short sword, long sword, two-handed sword", but it seems a bit harsh.





A thief of 10th or greater level reading scrolls has to roll on the magic-user "understand spells" table each time, but a magic-user doing so has to roll only once per spell, even if they have several scrolls of it.

Not quite; IIRC, the thief just has to roll their 85% chance to case the spell correctly.

As far as I was aware, scrolls only need read magic used on them for identification purposes, but I could well be wrong.





A magic-user rolls for random spells after they choose their one spell of their own choice, and they are permitted a reroll if they roll a spell they already chose.

I believe it is the other way around; they roll randomly, and then choose.

The rules for this process are not clearly defined. The DMG just has the game master allocating read magic, one offensive spell, one defensive, and one miscellaneous. Best just to decide what suits your group.





XP awards for monsters slain and gold found are split among the entire party (including hirelings). Fractions are kept as fractions, not truncated.

In many cases, hirelings and henchmen receive lesser XP shares than the rest of the party (usually half shares). So a party of 4 PCs and 8 henchmen would have 8 shares, either each PC getting a full share, and each henchman getting a half.

Or, another reading is 12 shares, with each henchman only benefiting from half in the case of monsters slain. Gold, I think, provides its full value for henchmen and characters alike.





A cleric may turn undead as often as he wants, but only once per round and once they fail in an encounter they can't do it any more. A 'failure' is defined as not affecting a single undead (or I guess paladins).

True.

Yes, and can only turn each type of undead once, apparently.





Shouldn't matter, but... a Good cleric can turn anti-paladins, and an anti-paladin can turn good paladins?

I do not know about anti-paladins, but evil clerics can turn paladins; they are counted as having their level in HD.

Probably.





Also, would you recommend the optional rule about fighters that require a negative score to hit their target being able to convert the negative requirement to a positive bonus to damage?

I like it.

Sure, sounds reasonable, though I cannot see it coming up much.

[Thelas]

Well.
The rate of fire table says that darts have a rate of fire of 3/round.
Is this just a cap (if you would have more attacks than 3, you only get to make 3 with darts?)

If someone has four attacks, do they make two first and two at the end?
If someone has three attacks, is it one first, one on normal initiative, one last, or two first, one last, or one first, two last, or something else entirely?

[Matthew]

Well. The rate of fire table says that darts have a rate of fire of 3/round.
Is this just a cap (if you would have more attacks than 3, you only get to make 3 with darts?)

The "rate of fire" is the number of attacks you can make with the weapon, regardless of what level the character happens to be. So, a level one fighter would make two attacks with a bow, as would a level twenty. A haste spell would double the number of attacks to four. However, for what it is worth, I do play it as a cap.



If someone has four attacks, do they make two first and two at the end?
If someone has three attacks, is it one first, one on normal initiative, one last...

Yes to this.



...or two first, one last, or one first, two last, or something else entirely?

No to this, but... there is some controversy over whether ranged attacks are staggered or all occur in accordance with initiative. I tend to believe the former, but many prefer the latter.