Versatile Spellcaster [3.5]

[Private-Prinny]

Aside from early entry cheese, how good is this feat? It still seems like taking to me, even if you're not using it to qualify for certain PrCs early.

[HunterOfJello]

Versatile Spellcaster is godly and eternally useful. I have strict ideas on which classes can use it and what for, but for a Favored Soul, Sorcerer, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer or class that casts all of their spells spontaneously, the feat is a must-have.

[ShadowsGrnEyes]

if your spontaneous this is a ridiculously usefull feat. . . at higer levels your low level spell slots that you almost never use are still usefull. . . at lower levels in longer fights you can use the big guns a little longer.

It's usefull enough that i've considered banning it for breaking certain aspects of the spells per day mechanic. i never actually banned it but i did consider it.

powerful yes, broken. . . only in a party with good optimizers. . . and those guys will break anything so thats not saying much

[Marriclay]

The verdict is;

Awesome = Yes
Broken = No

no reason to ban it that I see either. Just watch out for the players going nova

[Private-Prinny]

The verdict is;

Awesome = Yes
Broken = No

no reason to ban it that I see either. Just watch out for the players going nova

I'm a Batman DM. I know my players so well that I can have a contingency plan for every single one of them if they try to break my campaign.

Novas are easy to solve. Just toss another encounter at them while they're burned out.

[The Shadowmind]

Speaking of Nova? Does that mean a character could use 4 slots for a spell two levels higher, 8 slots for a spell three levels higher, etc.?

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Speaking of Nova? Does that mean a character could use 4 slots for a spell two levels higher, 8 slots for a spell three levels higher, etc.?Nah, sorry. Versatile Spellcaster doesn't give you a spell slot to burn for another use of Versatile Spellcaster; it gives you a spell you can cast in exchange for two lower level spell slots.

[Regnir]

I only play spontaneous casters (when I play a caster anyway) and I always use this feat

[Wings of Peace]

Goes well on wizards with either a means of acquiring vast amounts of spellslots or a means of refreshing their spellslots. Note that spontaneous spellcasting can already be achieved through various feats as qualification, and the feat never states if it only applies to a particular class' spells.

[Fizban]

One of the things that makes spontaneous casters great is that you can spam one spell over and over. If for some reason the only spell you have that is effective is 1st level, it doesn't matter: you can keep casting it with your 2nd level slots, and your 3rd, and so on as long as it's the one you need. But when you first pick up a new level of spells, and that new spell you learned is the only thing keeping you alive, only having 4 uses per day can be lethal. Versatile Spellcaster lets you keep casting it.

[Coidzor]

Nah, sorry. Versatile Spellcaster doesn't give you a spell slot to burn for another use of Versatile Spellcaster; it gives you a spell you can cast in exchange for two lower level spell slots.

Oh man but if you could. Let's take a conservative 30 CHA Sorcerer at 20th level. 6 spell slots of 0-9. -, +3, 3, 2, 2, 2, 2, 1, 1, 1 respectively from the ability modifier.

So... (9 level 1s)/2 = 4 new level 2s and 1 level 1
(9 level 2s + 4 level 2s)/2 = 13/2 = 6 new level 3s and 1 level 2
(8 level 3s + 6 level 3s)/2 = 14/2 = 7 new level 4s and 0 level 3
(8 level 4s + 7 level 4s)/2 = 15/2 = 7 new level 5s and 1 level 4
(8 level 5s + 7 level 5s)/2 = 15/2 = 7 new level 6s and 1 level 5
(8 level 6s + 7 level 6s)/2 = 15/2 = 7 new level 7s and 1 level 6
(7 level 7s + 7 level 7s)/2 = 14/2 = 7 new level 8s and 0 level 7
(7 level 8s + 7 level 8s)/2 = 14/2 = 7 new level 9s and 0 level 8
so... 7 level 9s +7 level 9s = 14 level 9s

That'd be 14 level 9s, 1 level 6, 1 level 5, 1 level 4, 1 level 2, and 1 level 1 spell... And that's with me forgetting cantrips.

Doing it properlyish (9 Level 0s)/2 = 4 level 1s and 1 level 0
(9 level 1s + 4 level 1s )/2 = 13/2 = 6 new level 2s and 1 level 1
(9 level 2s + 6 level 2s)/2 = 15/2 = 7 new level 3s and 1 level 2
(8 level 3s + 7 level 3s)/2 = 15/2 = 7 new level 4s and 1 level 3
(8 level 4s + 7 level 4s)/2 = 15/2 = 7 new level 5s and 1 level 4
(8 level 5s + 7 level 5s)/2 = 15/2 = 7 new level 6s and 1 level 5
(8 level 6s + 7 level 6s)/2 = 15/2 = 7 new level 7s and 1 level 6
(7 level 7s + 7 level 7s)/2 = 14/2 = 7 new level 8s and 0 level 7
(7 level 8s + 7 level 8s)/2 = 14/2 = 7 new level 9s and 0 level 8

So that's 1 each of level 3 and level 0 spells that can be cast...

14 level 9 spells and 1 each from level 0-6.

[PId6]

Great for spontaneous casters, but like anything else, goes even better for prepared ones, who can dump two spells they've prepared for any spell they know. Yay batman?

[ShadowsGrnEyes]

Great for spontaneous casters, but like anything else, goes even better for prepared ones, who can dump two spells they've prepared for any spell they know. Yay batman?

Alacritous Cogitation: Allows you to fill an open slot with a known spell 1/day. as a GM I would not let that alone qualify for casting spellS spontanouesly.

Is there another feat that lets a wizard cast spontaneously?

Either way I believe opening the feat to Prepared Casters violates RAI if not RAW.

[AstralFire]

And also RAMS.

[mikej]

Is there another feat that lets a wizard cast spontaneously?

Wouldn't Uncanny Forethought [Exemplars of Evil] work? Not entirely sure, away from books.

[PId6]

Is there another feat that lets a wizard cast spontaneously?

Either way I believe opening the feat to Prepared Casters violates RAI if not RAW.
Spontaneous Divination from Complete Champion.

And yeah, it definitely violates RAI. But works perfectly fine by RAW.

[ShadowsGrnEyes]

Spontaneous Divination from Complete Champion.

And yeah, it definitely violates RAI. But works perfectly fine by RAW.

yeah deffinetly ways it can work for divine prepared casters. . . according to RAW, i was more curious for Wizards. . .

I try to play/run RAI games. . . RAW leaves to many loopholes that basically allow people to cheat. . . you shouldn't need to speak LEGALESE to play a game. . . ruins the fun. . .

[Rannil]

Wouldn't Signature Spell also work? Granted it is only for one spell, but still spontaneously.

[PId6]

yeah deffinetly ways it can work for divine prepared casters. . . according to RAW, i was more curious for Wizards. . .
...

Spontaneous Divination is an ACF for wizards.

[dextercorvia]

Alacritous Cogitation: Allows you to fill an open slot with a known spell 1/day. as a GM I would not let that alone qualify for casting spellS spontanouesly.

This again? Does the feat only allow a wizard to cast one spell spontaneously ever? One per day. Guess how many he can cast in two days?

The other thing I like about Alacritous Cogitation... It provides an answer for prepared casters knowing spells, even though they don't have a spells known table. (I've heard this argument against it, too.)

[AstralFire]

This again? Does the feat only allow a wizard to cast one spell spontaneously ever? One per day. Guess how many he can cast in two days?

The other thing I like about Alacritous Cogitation... It provides an answer for prepared casters knowing spells, even though they don't have a spells known table. (I've heard this argument against it, too.)

I think she's pretty clearly going with a 'Rules as Sane' approach. Wizards don't need more tricks.

[dextercorvia]

I think she's pretty clearly going with a 'Rules as Sane' approach. Wizards don't need more tricks.

I can appreciate that. But she is hiding behind a false curtain of RAW. It is one thing to say, as one of the first responders did, "I only allow this to work with certain classes." Certainly it is powerful, and two feats (or an ACF and a feat) should not give wizards spontaneous casting out of their entire [collection of] spellbook[s]. However, by RAW, it does.

[Marriclay]

I can appreciate that. But she is hiding behind a false curtain of RAW. It is one thing to say, as one of the first responders did, "I only allow this to work with certain classes." Certainly it is powerful, and two feats (or an ACF and a feat) should not give wizards spontaneous casting out of their entire [collection of] spellbook[s]. However, by RAW, it does.

This demands one simple word which I believe expresses the depths of my disgust at this form of rules lawyering

AUGH

[AstralFire]

She's really more going with 'Rules as Intended/Sane.' I don't think she cares if she gets your approval on that, either. At the end of the day, quite a few people just don't care about RAW discussions.

[DragoonWraith]

This demands one simple word which I believe expresses the depths of my disgust at this form of rules lawyering

AUGH
I'm confused by your labeling of this as a "form of rules lawyering" - the rules are pretty explicit about this. It's really not a twisted torturing of the rules in order to get them to say what you want.

[dextercorvia]

This demands one simple word which I believe expresses the depths of my disgust at this form of rules lawyering

AUGH

I accepted AstralFire's assertion that it violated sanity. I'm not expecting to play this in your (or any) campaign. I am simply miffed at the whole 1 spell per day is not spellS argument that has been going on since Complete Arcane was released.

[Marriclay]

I'm confused by your labeling of this as a "form of rules lawyering" - the rules are pretty explicit about this. It's really not a twisted torturing of the rules in order to get them to say what you want.

It's not the twisted torturing of rules, you're right, but it also doesn't seem right that something should be so ungodly powerful simply because of a loophole that exists because somebody forgot to put an extra clause into the feat that stated "This doesn't apply to wizards" or some such like that.

Hell, you could also make the argument that because, initially, a wizard doesn't cast as a spontaneous caster it wouldn't work anyways. but the fact remains that people warp something that's supposed to be a game to the point where they can see how much damage they can churn out how quickly and how efficiently. Sure, entire boards are devoted to that simply because it's a lot of fun to look at a wizard who can deal 500 damage in a round that not only wastes the enemies, but also heals half of that to his 320 HD undead horde. It's also fun to look at a kobold that can bend reality by attacking any distance as melee and have as much stats as he wants. you can even make an inventor that gets quite literally unlimited bonuses to everything.

But there's a point along the line where those things stop being fun. They stop being so awesome and start being stupid. You won't play Pun-Pun because he's got so many advantages by whatever level those crazy optimizers have reduced his build to. Yes, before anybody says it I know comparing a spontaneous wizard to pun-pun and the omnificer is unfair, but it's starting to get there and I expressed my opinion.

As a final note, I did not aim that single word of disgust at Dextercorvia specifically. It was the ruling in general.

[dextercorvia]

I blame WotC really. They give prereq's which are restrictive, but vague in their application. Able to cast 2nd level arcane spells, for instance. Then they release things: Prec. Apprentice, Sanctum Spell, Earth Spell, Steal Spells ability, Versatile spellcaster, that seem to make it so that you can satisfy the prereqs early. Some people say, "Awesome, I can make a reasonably optimized MT now." Others say, "That is cheese! It violates the intent or letter of the rules."

WotC says nothing.

[ShadowsGrnEyes]

I think she's pretty clearly going with a 'Rules as Sane' approach. Wizards don't need more tricks.

pretty much that


I can appreciate that. But she is hiding behind a false curtain of RAW. It is one thing to say, as one of the first responders did, "I only allow this to work with certain classes." Certainly it is powerful, and two feats (or an ACF and a feat) should not give wizards spontaneous casting out of their entire [collection of] spellbook[s]. However, by RAW, it does.

I am suspicious of it being legal by RaW and admit uncertainty. i have no problem with being proved wrong. i'll just add it to the list of stupid mistakes in RAW


She's really more going with 'Rules as Intended/Sane.' I don't think she cares if she gets your approval on that, either. At the end of the day, quite a few people just don't care about RAW discussions.

yes Rules as Intended and/or Sane are always better than the RAW loopholes people like to find as I aluded to here. it's not about trying to find a way to do things the game doesnt want you to do.

I try to play/run RAI games. . . RAW leaves to many loopholes that basically allow people to cheat. . . you shouldn't need to speak LEGALESE to play a game. . . ruins the fun. . .

[Coidzor]

Spontaneous Divination from Complete Champion.

And yeah, it definitely violates RAI. But works perfectly fine by RAW.

Now, I'm not very well-versed in the particulars of the peculiar worship of the Design, but I'm pretty sure with a name like "Spontaneous Divination" they intended for it to do exactly what it says on the tin.

Oh, this was referring to allowing Wizards to cast all of their spells sans cantrips spontaneously. How about that. I'd just go with RAAC there.

With how much of a bunch of Neglectful Misanthropic Precursors the Designers were, who can say whether they wanted savvy wizards to be able to choose to do that or not.

[PId6]

Now, I'm not very well-versed in the particulars of the peculiar worship of the Design, but I'm pretty sure with a name like "Spontaneous Divination" they intended for it to do exactly what it says on the tin.
That does work as intended (after errata; the pre-errata'd version lets you spontaneously cast any divination spell by RAW; ugh). It's Versatile Spellcaster that they didn't intend for prepared casters to take it, though apparently they never realized a prepared caster with spontaneous spellcasting somehow can still use the feat.

[Coidzor]

That does work as intended (after errata; the pre-errata'd version lets you spontaneously cast any divination spell by RAW; ugh). It's Versatile Spellcaster that they didn't intend for prepared casters to take it, though apparently they never realized a prepared caster with spontaneous spellcasting somehow can still use the feat.

Yeah, they like poorly worded things. Almost like Baatezu. Or people who grew up in the culture of the 1970s...

[PId6]

Yeah, they like poorly worded things. Almost like Baatezu. Or people who grew up in the culture of the 1970s...
Actually Baatezu word their contracts very well. It's just worded in such a way as to make their victims' lives complete hell. Wait for it.

[Keld Denar]

Pun intended? *snicker*

[PId6]

Pun intended? *snicker*
Check for yourself. :smallwink:

[Coidzor]

Well, no, they don't. Because they have legal writing which can be interpreted and parsed in about 12 vastly different ways while still remaining correct within both the oral contract to make the contract and by the words of the contract itself, but just pick whichever one they feel like at the moment as part of the "screw the rules, I'm a baatezu," clause that never actually bothers to get incorporated into the contract.

Or at least that's the way everyone treats them online.

[Wings of Peace]

This has been my means of entry but I want to see if anyone has RAW arguments against it. I will as a Wizard take Magical Training (Sorcerer) to grant myself low level spontaneous casting thus meeting the spontaneous casting requirement.

[dextercorvia]

I say dip a level of Beguiler and go UM. With VS, even without getting quasi beguiler levels -- you can keep casting their spells of the next level. Requires heighten or one of the others. Lets see cast as a Wizard7 Beguiler3? Check. Able to cast 5th level Beguiler spells? Check. UM helps out a bit with CL, too.

[Private-Prinny]

Versatile Spellcaster does not work with prepared casters. It requires you to give up spell slots, which they do not have. They use prepared spells.

[DragoonWraith]

Uh... those are still spell slots. They're prepared early, but the game does not make a distinction between the two.

[dextercorvia]

Versatile Spellcaster does not work with prepared casters. It requires you to give up spell slots, which they do not have. They use prepared spells.

cf. the feat Extra SLOT. It's in Complete Arcane.

[DaTedinator]

Uh... those are still spell slots. They're prepared early, but the game does not make a distinction between the two.

While I personally am more inclined to agree with you, I could see it being a legit argument, differentiating between spell slots (which all casters have), and prepared spells (which Wizards turn their spell slots into). I think they're the same, but it's a legitimate view, methinks.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

While I personally am more inclined to agree with you, I could see it being a legit argument, differentiating between spell slots (which all casters have), and prepared spells (which Wizards turn their spell slots into). I think they're the same, but it's a legitimate view, methinks.

If such is the case, a wizard could just leave slots unprepared to fuel versatile spellcaster. That would kind of take away from the whole "versatile" part of it, but it would minimize the debate.

[dextercorvia]

While I personally am more inclined to agree with you, I could see it being a legit argument, differentiating between spell slots (which all casters have), and prepared spells (which Wizards turn their spell slots into). I think they're the same, but it's a legitimate view, methinks.

But prepared casters can leave their spell slots open. See alacritous cogitation, or the rules for preparing spells including leaving spell slots open to prepare spells later in the day (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/arcaneSpells.htm#wizardSpellSelectionandPreparatio n) Also, note how many times they use the word slot referring to a prepared caster.

Also, it doesn't say convert slots into anything, but filling slots that are empty. Kind of implies that prepared spells are filling existing spell slots doesn't it?

Edit: Ninja'd while I grabbed the link.

[DaTedinator]

Like I said, I agree with you guys and find it a dubious distinction. Just explaining why it could still be a plausible one. I suppose I was wrong, though, and it is just silly. :smalltongue:

[dextercorvia]

I have heard some weird ones. Like I said earlier, I have seen people claim that wizards don't know spells, they have just learned them.

Don't forget if you are getting VS on a wizard take Focused Specialist. I said it in another thread, but you can trade the two extra specialist slots for a general spell (of an unbanned school of course) one level higher, making you strictly better than a regular specialist, and definitely worth the extra banned school.

I totally understand if someone says in my game we don't use VS for prepared spellcasters (or at all), I think it is too powerful.

[Wings of Peace]

It gets really crazy when used on a prepared caster with a level in Primal Scholar to allow them to get back all of their spell slots afterward.

[dextercorvia]

I hadn't heard of that class, I found an online link, but it didn't say where it was from.

Or you could use a Sanctum Repeating [Echoing] Mage's Lucubration.

[If you use arcane thesis on Mage's Lucubration]

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Primal Scholar is a PrC in the current contest run by ErrantX.

[dextercorvia]

It gets really crazy when used on a prepared caster with a level in Primal Scholar to allow them to get back all of their spell slots afterward.

Wouldn't you need two levels to get this benefit?

[Wings of Peace]

Wouldn't you need two levels to get this benefit?

You're right. It's been awhile since I looked over the Primal Scholar table.

[dextercorvia]

Then I guess I found the right one. So, is this homebrew?

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Then I guess I found the right one. So, is this homebrew?

It's in the homebrew section of the forums, so the answer should be obvious.:smalltongue: Generally, though, stuff in the prestige class contests never existed before on page or paper, barring a few exceptions or inspirations from official sources.

[dextercorvia]

The link (http://johannsen.us/dnd/Default.aspx?page=PrimalScholarPrestigeClass) I found wasn't from the playground, and I didn't see anything about a contest. It looks like a third party campaign module.

[Wings of Peace]

The link (http://johannsen.us/dnd/Default.aspx?page=PrimalScholarPrestigeClass) I found wasn't from the playground, and I didn't see anything about a contest. It looks like a third party campaign module.

Wrong Primal Scholar. It's a PRC from Secrets of Xen'Drik. At second level you can choose to gain the ability to regain a scaling number of spellslots. You combo this with persistent Unfettered Heroism from Magic of Eberron to grant you an action point each round allowing you to perpetually refill your slots. Doc Roc was actually the one who showed me the combination, we named it Primal Heroism for style.

[olentu]

The link (http://johannsen.us/dnd/Default.aspx?page=PrimalScholarPrestigeClass) I found wasn't from the playground, and I didn't see anything about a contest. It looks like a third party campaign module.

Hmm that looks close to but not exactly like what I remember the primal scholar class from secrets of xen'drik. The insightful magic seems new but then again it may be in the secrets of xen'drik version and I am just not remembering it.

[dextercorvia]

Weird. So the one you are referring to is different from TDC's. That makes three PrC's with the same name, and apparently similar abilities.

[Coidzor]

If such is the case, a wizard could just leave slots unprepared to fuel versatile spellcaster. That would kind of take away from the whole "versatile" part of it, but it would minimize the debate.

Well, it'd still be versatile, it'd just have to choose between being more versatile than a normal wizard but having less spells per day and having more spells to cast in a day, but having to select them tactically and intelligently (at least for one's general purpose loadout).

[olentu]

Wrong Primal Scholar. It's a PRC from Secrets of Xen'Drik. At second level you can choose to gain the ability to regain a scaling number of spellslots. You combo this with persistent Unfettered Heroism from Magic of Eberron to grant you an action point each round allowing you to perpetually refill your slots. Doc Roc was actually the one who showed me the combination, we named it Primal Heroism for style.

I believe that unfettered heroism is in races of eberron rather then magic of eberron.

[Wings of Peace]

I believe that unfettered heroism is in races of eberron rather then magic of eberron.

Correct. I tend to get my Eberron books confused quite easily.