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fracas
2010-06-12, 01:43 AM
Building for lvl 10 3.5 core. Using crit-fishing as a major way to generate damage. How's this look?

Elf Ranger 10, TWF tree, rolled 51hp
Str 12, Dex 28 (includes +2 from elf, +2 lvl 4 and 8, +6 from item), Con 13 (includes -2 from elf), Int 14, Cha 11

FEATS
1: Weapon Finesse
3: Dodge
6: Mobility
9: Improved crit: Kukri
(get Spring Attack at 12)

ITEMS (49k gp)
+1 Mithril chainshirt (2k)
buckler (non-magic)
2x +1 Kukris +1d6 fire (crits on 15-20 with Imp Crit; 8k)
Composite (+1 Str bonus) longbow
Item of +6 Dex (36k)

QUESTIONS
1. Am I better off with a double bladed sword? I lose two points of crit threat but base damage improves from 1d4 to 1d8.

2. Better choice of other items? Remember core only.

3. Better off dropping Dodge/Mobility for something else? Weapon focus?

Thespianus
2010-06-12, 02:01 AM
Gah - I wrote a long treatise on how TWF-ing with a Ranger is very hard and wrote up a long recommendation of using a Swashbuckler/Rogue-combination with Telling Blow and Daring Outlaw... then I noticed "Core" in the OP. :(

Now, I've got nothing. :(

EDIT: But, well, you're putting a lot of effort into your Dex. Most of your gold goes into a Dex + 6 Item, and I'm thinking you would be better off with some other equipment. Lower the item to +4 Dex, and maybe get some wands (are there Ranger wands? There ought to be) or other good magical items.

Also, you've forgotten to include your Wisdom score. Can you cast spells? Spells are good, even if you just want to fight things with Kukris. :)

Gralamin
2010-06-12, 02:13 AM
I'll only address the damage side. You are severely lacking in damage modifiers, and I'd suggest dropping a lot of Dexterity into Strength, so you always deal competent damage.

Kukris
Your attack is 10 (BAB) + 9 (Dex) +1 (Enhancement) - 2 (TWF) = +18. After iterative attacks, and TWF, you have an attack routine of +18/+18/+13/+13 Against some of the stronger CR 10 monsters (AC 24), you hit 75% of the time. Your crit chance is 30%. You deal 1d4+1d6+2 (Average 8) damage on a hit. You deal 2d4+1d6+4 (Average 12.5) damage on a crit.

With a standard action, you have a 45% chance to hit, but not crit. You have a 30% chance to crit threat. Provided you crit threat, you have a 75% chance to crit, and a 25% chance to hit. This ends up as:
8 damage * 52.5% + 22.5% * 12.5 damage. Thats an average of 7.0125 damage a round.

With a full attack, you'll essentially have a standard action twice (14.025 damage), plus two attacks at a reduced value (20% chance to hit, but not crit. 30% chance to crit threat. Provided you crit threat, 50% chance to crit, and 50% chance to hit.) of
8 damage * 35% + 15% * 12.5 damage = 4.675 damage.
You have this twice, for a total damage per round of 23.375. This very very poor.

Double bladed sword
As above, but 20% crit chance, and 1d8+1d6+2 (Average 10) damage on a hit. 2d8+1d6+4 (Average 16.5) on a crit.

With a standard action, you have a 45% chance to hit, but not crit. You have a 30% chance to crit threat. Provided you crit threat, you have a 75% chance to crit, and a 25% chance to hit. This ends up as:
10 damage * 52.5% + 22.5% * 16.5 damage. Thats an average of 8.9625 damage a round.

With a full attack, you'll essentially have a standard action twice (17.925 damage), plus two attacks at a reduced value (20% chance to hit, but not crit. 30% chance to crit threat. Provided you crit threat, 50% chance to crit, and 50% chance to hit.) of
10 damage * 35% + 15% * 16.5 damage = 5.975 damage.
You have this twice, for a total damage per round of 29.875. This is still very very poor. But only 6.5 points better then the kukris.

gallagher
2010-06-12, 02:45 AM
Why are you going spring attack, when twf'ers need to take advantage of swinging more? Dump those feats, and ask your dm if you can suggest some feats for his consideration outside of core, such as two weapon attack of opportunity or two weapon rend.

Os1ris09
2010-06-12, 02:53 AM
Why are you going spring attack, when twf'ers need to take advantage of swinging more? Dump those feats, and ask your dm if you can suggest some feats for his consideration outside of core, such as two weapon attack of opportunity or two weapon rend.

The feat is called Double hit, forgot where it is, and Robilars gambit with combat reflex's makes your HIGH dex a heck of alot more useable. Hit them x2 for everytime they swing at you. :smallbiggrin:

AstralFire
2010-06-12, 06:44 AM
Those are still terrible feats with an inane amount of requirements for little benefit.

Core-only TWF is terrible. So are Dodge and Mobility. Weapon Focus and... uh... I'm sure there's something else better for you to take.

...I can't really suggest much of anything else. Core is both weak and boring for melee, for me. :|

Mongoose87
2010-06-12, 07:16 AM
The one nice thing about TWFing Rangers is you don't need to meet the Dex requirements of the TWFing feats. So, put your high score into strength, as it will boost to-hit and damage.

Amphetryon
2010-06-12, 07:19 AM
The feat is called Double hit, forgot where it is, and Robilars gambit with combat reflex's makes your HIGH dex a heck of alot more useable. Hit them x2 for everytime they swing at you. :smallbiggrin:

Double Hit is in the Miniatures Handbook.

AstralFire
2010-06-12, 07:21 AM
Double Hit is in the Miniatures Handbook.

Isn't it in CAdv or PHBII as well? A lot of MiniHB's content got repeated.

Mongoose87
2010-06-12, 07:21 AM
If "Core-Only" means "SRD-Only," see if you can use Psychic Warrior, and get Psionic Lion's Charge.

AstralFire
2010-06-12, 07:25 AM
If "Core-Only" means "SRD-Only," see if you can use Psychic Warrior, and get Psionic Lion's Charge.

He is playing a TWFer with Dodge, Mobility and Kukris or a Double-Bladed Sword.

Odds are that he doesn't understand what you just said, why it's good, and possibly finds it overpowered. Guessing OP is new to this. I suggest letting him see if he enjoys playing this way first (since some people do.)

Mongoose87
2010-06-12, 07:27 AM
He is playing a TWFer with Dodge, Mobility and Kukris or a Double-Bladed Sword.

Odds are that he doesn't understand what you just said, why it's good, and possibly finds it overpowered. Guessing OP is new to this. I suggest letting him see if he enjoys playing this way first (since some people do.)

But, it hurts!

Greenish
2010-06-12, 07:31 AM
Why would you fish for crits when you have nearly nothing to multiply?

Thieves
2010-06-12, 08:10 AM
Why would you fish for crits when you have nearly nothing to multiply?

Ouch, I smell burnt flesh.

AstralFire
2010-06-12, 08:12 AM
Ouch, I smell burnt flesh.

Fried critfish for everyone!

gallagher
2010-06-12, 11:33 AM
Fried critfish for everyone!

critfish gumbo anyone?

RagnaroksChosen
2010-06-12, 11:46 AM
I would sugest a few things 1 don';t take ranger all the way. 2 add in some sort of suplimentile damage increase eather through adding some rogue levels. or adding in some barbarian.


Core only are you talking phb, mm, dmg or SRd only?


Also you should put more into str then dex. dex only needs to be high enough for you to get your twf feats.

Draz74
2010-06-12, 11:48 AM
Why would you fish for crits when you have nearly nothing to multiply?

Hopefully he'll always be fighting his Favored Enemies. If that's the case, then TWF Ranger isn't actually a bad plan as far as Core-Only Melee goes. (Though I still agree with others here, he should pump his Strength up and ditch Dodge/Mobility/Spring Attack.)

The Glyphstone
2010-06-12, 11:51 AM
Not even that, since the TWF feats are prerequisite-free for Rangers.

Swiftest
2010-06-12, 11:54 AM
Definitely drop dodge and mobility. Those are no good for you and neither is spring attack. Just put some cross class skill points into tumble. To replace the feats consider Iron Will (your will save must be awful and that's a martial character's biggest weakness), Combat Reflexes, Blind Fight, or even Weapon Focus (as annoyingly crappy a feat as it is it is still far better than Dodge or Mobility).

To ask the question that several others here have already asked, does core in this case include SRD? Generally it does, but the question still bears asking. If so you could consider grabbing a +3 kukri and making the other one +1 (since you'll be attacking far more often with just your primary, you won't lose nearly as much). Then consider adding the Collision (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/weapons.htm#collision) enhancement to your Kukri, which gives it a flat +5 damage that is multiplied on a crit. This could help with punching through DR and getting you higher multiplied damage totals on a crit -- both things you are severely lacking right now.

Even if you don't go for it now (money's tight after all and that +6 dex item looks really shiney) you should consider something other than flaming on your weapons. That gets resisted by damn near everything at higher levels.

edit: Also, yes, a level in Whirling Frenzy Barbarian (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm#rageVariantWhirlingFrenzy ) makes almost any core melee build better, and will give you more STR to multiply. I'd definitely take that were I you.

If your heart is set on being a ranger than at least take advantage of the prereq-free two weapon fighting feats and pump Str instead of Dex, you really need to increase your base damage mods as much as possible to make this even close to effective. Your AC will suffer but you won't need to waste a feat on weapon finesse and you'll find you will be much more of a blender of death than with the dex build you're proposing.

Gosh I can't stop editing. I also recommend you ditch the +6 stat item and go with a +4 plus numerous smaller items such as a ring of protection, cloak of resistance, potentially a wand of enlarge person (if you go the STR route this is more flat damage at little to no cost apart from AC) for your caster to use on you etc. You will benefit far more overall by this than with the extra +2 to a stat, even if that stat does benefit your AC, skills, and to-hit.

fracas
2010-06-12, 12:07 PM
Sad to say, but I played 3.5 for about 5 years, quit for a couple years, picked up 4.0 late last year, played a few games of that, and just got a new DM who likes 3.5.

I'm well aware that the build I posted is gimptacular; wasn't used to the Core-only restriction (checked with DM, no SRD goodies) and didn't realize when I started it how bad it was going to be. So I finished it up, realized it sucked, and posted it here for fixing. Sounds like the fix is to 1. Swap dex to str and race to... probably Human, maybe Horc. 2. Probably dream up a different concept. I had a variant of the old Lancer build on the WotC forums that I really liked, but of course that required non-core stuff.

Good news is this build isn't something I was hoping to use anytime soon; just cranking out ideas in my spare time. Would a bow-ranger work out better? As should be obvious, I've forgotten way too much of this stuff. :p

Wis is 14 btw. My bad.

The Glyphstone
2010-06-12, 12:08 PM
Core archery is also gimped, though possibly less so due to being able to have a big powerful +5 bow and a bunch of +1 [Enchantment] arrows for a bit more damage than normal.

Swiftest
2010-06-12, 12:16 PM
Have you seen Saph's Horizon Tripper? Check it out here:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80415

Something like this would be a pretty effective core build for a melee character. Archery-focused characters suffer extremely in 3.5 D&D, but with that said a Ranger makes a decent archer and you'd still probably want to bump strength and be a switch-hitter with a big greatsword as backup.

Have you considered something neato like a melee-focused wildshaping druid? You could have a hell of a lot of fun, tear enemies to shreads with your claws, and then have all the amenities of a full caster plus an animal companion that's potentially better than the party fighter (this line is overused, but it's sadly true).

Greenish
2010-06-12, 12:41 PM
Have you considered something neato like a melee-focused wildshaping druid? You could have a hell of a lot of fun, tear enemies to shreads with your claws, and then have all the amenities of a full caster plus an animal companion that's potentially better than the party fighter (this line is overused, but it's sadly true).In a core only game, unless you lack any and all frontliners, I recommend you take a hawk/eagle/owl as your animal companion as a druid. They'll help scouting and such, but won't be stealing the limelight from other players.

And yeah, a druid is probably the strongest core-only frontliner (perhaps tied with cleric, but cleric will need more buff time).

fracas
2010-06-12, 01:05 PM
Alright, looking at a re-build:

1. New stats: Str26 (18+2 Horc + 2 levels + 4 item) Dex14 Con15 Int12 (-2 Horc) Wis14 Cha10 (-2 Horc).

2. Race changed to Half-orc (doesn't seem feat-starved enough to justify Human).

3. Since I unfortunately can't use Collision, there don't seem to be many crit-multipliable sources of damage, which means crit-fishing is probably a waste especially with such small damage dice. Too bad Half-orcs don't get racial proficiency with a double axe... *facepalm*. Looks like the best option is probably just longsword+shortsword or scimitar/kukri if some way to make crits worthwhile appears. Heavy pick/light pick would be fun just for the occasional nuclear crit although obviously not optimal.

4. With Wis14 I can cast spells. Cure light wounds? lol

fracas
2010-06-12, 01:15 PM
Forgot feats. Combat Reflexes looks pretty good with that 15 Dex (probably bump to 16 at lvl 12). Weapon Focus looked good when I was using one type of weapon in both hands with lots of attacks, but not so much with longsword+shortsword.

I suppose I could do the spiked chain routine. It'd actually be a slight damage boost over what I've got now (expected 5 on a 2d4 vs 4.5 on a 1d8 and 3.5 on a 1d6) and that would open up tripping and give me more benefits from Enlarge.

Mongoose87
2010-06-12, 01:15 PM
There are actually some decent spell options, for Rangers. For example, longstrider gives you +10 movement speed for hours/day, which is nice.

Swiftest
2010-06-12, 01:20 PM
Since you've brought up the spiked chain, I'll bite:

Why not a two handed build in general? Spiked Chain is fine, or falchion, or greatsword, or greataxe. All will work quite well. Spiked chain is probably the most powerful from an optimization perspective since reach is win.

You would then be getting fantastic damage from the 1.5 times your str bonus to your two handed weapon, and you could *power attack* for double damage. This is why fighting with a two handed weapon is usually so much more effective than dual wielding.

Oh, and do you have a caster in the party with several castings of Haste? If not, seriously consider investing in Boots of Speed.

Mongoose87
2010-06-12, 01:44 PM
If you like crits, a Falchion is a very effective way to use them.

ProfMoriarty
2010-06-12, 01:46 PM
If you are still considering twf, you could use the kusari-gama instead of the spiked chain. They are a light weapon version of the spiked chain from pg145 of the DMG.

Though the only time they would be superior to spiked chain is if you have some way of taking advantage of the extra attacks (dragonfire inspiration, sneak attack, skirmish, punishing stance)

Pluto
2010-06-12, 02:03 PM
Ranger 2/Rogue X (cross-classing, say, Survival and Handle Animal) plays a lot like a Ranger, but with Sneak Attack dice and Trapfinding. I'd probably do that, if I were looking to portray the same character outlined in the OP.

edit: Whoa that window was open a while. Since it looks like this thread has moved from the Ranger idea, nvm.

fracas
2010-06-12, 06:29 PM
Mostly because we don't have a party rogue and the fighter isn't all that good. Ranger = front-line with skills. Also, I'm well aware that druids destroy rangers at most everything. I'm just not a big fan of all the hassle involved in playing a caster... and I'm already running a cleric in my other game.

Also, just got around to reading the Horizon Tripper thread. Looks like gold and doesn't even need a chain (although as far as I can tell every core melee build should be either tripping with chain or mounted charging with lance). Weee!

DragoonWraith
2010-06-12, 07:01 PM
The Horizon Tripper is one of the most elegant, useful, and appropriate builds ever made.

AvatarZero
2010-06-12, 07:56 PM
Finally, an opportunity to use this build. I call it the Drizz't, you'll see why.

You will need:
Two scimitars. Make sure they're either Keen, or you have Improved Critical (Scimitar)
STR 13 and Power Attack
INT 13 and Combat Expertise
Levels in full BAB classes only
Enough open feats to get TWF and it's Improved and Greater versions when available.

Minmax your melee character by dumping attack bonus. If you power attack for maximum while fighting defensively for maximum you'll can, at tenth level, get a +5 to AC, +10 to damage, and a -15 to attack rolls, which combines with the -2 for using a non-light weapon in your off-hand. But that doesn't matter, because you'll automatically hit with each critical threat, and you have a flat 30% chance of scoring a threat on each attack.

You can use Ranger or Fighter for the feats, or Barbarian if you want to be able to regress into a bestial state, but I like using the Paladin class. Because the Paladin spell Bless Weapon makes a weapon auto-confirm criticals against evil targets.

That's about as much cheese as I can muster using the PHB and no full spellcasters.

DragoonWraith
2010-06-12, 08:01 PM
Critical threats don't automatically hit, only a natural 20 does. You have a 5% to hit, which is basically awful.

AvatarZero
2010-06-13, 04:20 AM
Critical threats don't automatically hit, only a natural 20 does. You have a 5% to hit, which is basically awful.

Well, damn. I knew I couldn't have been the only one to see that rule.

I'm sure I've heard people complain about wide-crit weapons being "unrealistic" because they do that. I guess they must have made the same mistake I did.

Oh well...

GoodbyeSoberDay
2010-06-13, 04:42 AM
Well, damn. I knew I couldn't have been the only one to see that rule.

I'm sure I've heard people complain about wide-crit weapons being "unrealistic" because they do that. I guess they must have made the same mistake I did.

Oh well...If I recall correctly it worked that way in 3.0. A large part of 3.5 was making sure melee couldn't even have theoretically nice things.

fracas
2010-06-13, 06:17 AM
Yup. IMHO Wizards basically sent out a memo telling every core melee player to 1. play a cleric/druid (EDIT: or arcane caster+Tenser's Transformation and related buff-fest), 2. get a lance+mount to get insane damage, or 3. get a spiked chain and trip things like crazy (hope they aren't flying).

On the other hand, non-casters don't have to deal with those atrocious spell lists and messy mechanics. For me as a gamer rather than an accountant, it's mostly worth it (relatively manageable clerics excepted). The guys in my group don't optimize well anyway so I'm not being outgunned by Batman wizards.

So, here's the new build (horizon tripper w/ some small tweaks):
Race: Elf (40' base speed + barb fast move = 50' move :D, also has nice sleep immunity and some will save buffs)
Stats (at lvl 6): 21 Str (includes +1 lvl 4, +2 item), 18 Dex (includes +2 Elf), 10 Con (includes -2 Elf), 13 Int, 11 Wis, 9 Cha.

Class: Ranger/Barb1/Barb2/Ranger2/Ranger3/Horizon Walker1 (to maximize skill points and avoid multiclass penalties)

Feats: Combat Expertise, Imp Trip
To get: Combat Reflexes (will be sweet with 4 Dex mod), Power Attack, Cleave, Iron Will (!), EWP Spiked Chain (why not? not a whole lot of great beater feats), Skill Focus: Knowledge Nobility (kidding!)

Gear:
+1 mithril shirt
+1 comp longbow (+4 str bonus)
+1 guisarme
Morningstar (backup for oozes and undead)
Can I use a wand of cure light? It's in my spell list but I can't cast it without more ranger levels.
6x potions of enlarge, CL1 (50gp/ea)
Belt of Giant Str +2
MW tumbling kit (cheese, but whatever)

Not sure what to do with the rest of the gold. Cloak of Resistance? Item of +speed just for laughs?

General thoughts? I know dipping fighter is an option but meh, doesn't impress me. Uncanny dodge is nice and keeps the build simple and well-stocked on skill points.

EDIT: I suppose I could do half-orc instead. +Str and no -Con are always nice and I'd have 120' darkvision... at the expense of one less skill and a gaping sadgasm of vulnerability for a will save. Bleh.

Or I guess Barb could also cancel out slow Dwarf move speed and still have plenty of mobility with dim door in a few levels. Nice class features, 120' darkvision with HWalker but I like 40-50' move a lot... so sleep immunity, speed, and +Dex-Con vs Dwarf resistances, 120' darkvision, and +Con vs +Str-Skills, 120' darkvision, and complete vulnerability to will saves. Elf seems like the best choice, though not by much. I assume everyone still hates half-orcs as much as they did in my cleric thread? ;)

Also, this is PHB+DMG+MM only. No extra SRD goodies. Sorry.

DragoonWraith
2010-06-13, 10:34 AM
You want to play a melee character with 10 Con? That sounds like suicide to me. What does being an Elf get you here? 10 ft. Move speed is not even remotely worth a feat.

Human is hands-down the best race in Core. Only Gnomes give them any kind of run for their money, and even then not in melee.

Greenish
2010-06-13, 10:38 AM
What does being an Elf get you here? 10 ft. Move speed is not even remotely worth a feat.What am I missing? Elves have the base speed of 30', right?

AstralFire
2010-06-13, 10:58 AM
What am I missing? Elves have the base speed of 30', right?

fracas mentioned dwarves specifically in his latest post, so that's the comparison.

fracas
2010-06-13, 04:52 PM
Actually, Elves have a move speed of 7 squares (35') in 4e, which I was playing until recently. Forgot they only get 30' in 3.5. My bad.

fracas
2010-06-13, 05:37 PM
The reasoning behind the low Con is that I get a high Dex in exchange. My Fort save is pretty solid thanks to all three classes having high Fort, so I don't particularly need Con for anything except hit points.

This build is prone to low AC (mithril chainshirt) and Ref save. Most AC and Ref save attacks do HP damage. I don't get Evasion with this build despite the light armor, which makes Ref save an even bigger problem. With 12 Con I'd get an extra 1HP/lvl (6hp at lvl 6). Certainly a substantial amount, but a base fireball at my level does 6d6 = expected 21 damage; 3.5x more than a Con boost would get me. Seems much more efficient to shore up my weak defenses than try to absorb the damage coming through them.

Elf gets me +1 to AC and Ref in exchange for 1hp/lvl, and immunity to sleep helps that low Will save a lot too. If I went Human, I'd end up blowing the feat on Lightning Reflexes or Iron Will... and I'd need both of them quite a bit more.

Instead, I'd argue that I still have more hp than a melee rogue, better mobility (higher base move and comparable stealth/tumble), and better battlefield control through reach and tripping. I can also Rage if I'm low on health. I'll pick up a Con item at first chance and have the party Wiz cast Shield on me as needed. I think I'll be fine as long as I play like a tactical skirmisher instead of a front-line beater.

Greenish
2010-06-13, 05:45 PM
fracas mentioned dwarves specifically in his latest post, so that's the comparison.Really? :smallconfused:


Race: Elf (40' base speed + barb fast move = 50' move :D, also has nice sleep immunity and some will save buffs)

Swiftest
2010-06-13, 05:52 PM
I am running a character similar to yours right now, although I'm using fighter levels rather than ranger. I feel that this is stronger as with the multiclassing you will never really get much use out of your animal companion or spellcasting and fighter has far more useful bonus feats (and more of them) for what you have in mind. I would seriously consider switching, despite the hit to skills. You'll be far more effective in combat with 3 bonus feats from fighter added on to what you already have. That would let you take, for instance, iron will (taken as a regular feat), power attack (you want this now, you don't want this later -- you want this now, trust me) and then either cleave or weapon focus or improved disarm/grapple (options in combat/shutting down certain casters).

I would also make sure to have armor spikes so that you can threaten within 5 feet while wielding your guisarme. Furthermore, why not be a wood elf? They are core (page 104 of monster manual) and get +2 str AND +2 dex at the cost of -2 int - 2 con. Plus they've got a more woodsey vibe to them and their favored class is ... ranger! This means you could in theory take a fighter level instead of the 2nd barb level and grab an extra feat. You could then take another fighter level at, say, level 8, and get improved crit too. Wood elf is arguably better than human for the character you have in mind since the +2 to str will help not only your to-hit and damage but also your opposed str check to trip. I know you're looking to have skills so the hit to int will hurt, but I'd still do it =).

Lastly, even if you don't switch you get three feats, not two, at level 6, so go ahead and take combat reflexes too. You want this even more than power attack imo, but it's close!

fracas
2010-06-13, 08:03 PM
Swiftest - Interesting options... but how are you getting into Horizon Walker (requires Endurance and 8 ranks K. Geography) with Barb/Fighter? I assume you're talking Barb3/Ftr2 since Ftr3 is the epitome of worthlessness. You'd have to blow one of your two Ftr feats on Endurance, you'd lose 16 skill points over my build (assuming you take Brb at 1st; Brb gets 4 vs Rgr 6, 2*4 at 1st = 8, then -4 for each of the two Ftr levels where Ftr gets 2 and Rgr gets 6 = another 8), and only gain an expected 2hp and a single feat.

Ranger doesn't get animal companion or spells until lvl 4 so I'm not sure why you're bringing that up for my 3-level dip. The reason for the 3rd level is free Endurance along +4 skills over Ftr and K. Geography as a class skill. You'll have to get those 8 ranks of K.Geo cross-class on an already skill-starved build.

Dropping Barb for Ftr actually seems like a much better option. Barb doesn't bring anything to the table over Ftr except a couple skills, a couple hp, fast move, and a single rage. Those are all nice, but losing them doesn't result in a skill-crippled build, and you'd get the full benefit of both feats rather than blowing one on Endurance.

Wood Elf sounds good. I definitely wouldn't combine it with Ftr (you'd end up blowing every last skill point on K. Geo for 8 levels unless you wasted a high score on Int), but it might work with my current build. Basically I'd get +1 attacks, +1 or 2 damage (depending on whether my mod is even or odd) in exchange for -1 skill point per level. I could live with that. Too bad it's still -Con or I'd jump on it.

Anyone else? Thoughts?

Swiftest
2010-06-14, 02:21 PM
Swiftest - Interesting options... but how are you getting into Horizon Walker (requires Endurance and 8 ranks K. Geography) with Barb/Fighter? I assume you're talking Barb3/Ftr2 since Ftr3 is the epitome of worthlessness. You'd have to blow one of your two Ftr feats on Endurance, you'd lose 16 skill points over my build (assuming you take Brb at 1st; Brb gets 4 vs Rgr 6, 2*4 at 1st = 8, then -4 for each of the two Ftr levels where Ftr gets 2 and Rgr gets 6 = another 8), and only gain an expected 2hp and a single feat.

Ranger doesn't get animal companion or spells until lvl 4 so I'm not sure why you're bringing that up for my 3-level dip. The reason for the 3rd level is free Endurance along +4 skills over Ftr and K. Geography as a class skill. You'll have to get those 8 ranks of K.Geo cross-class on an already skill-starved build.

Ah I apologize, I was unclear -- I actually was planning to take a level of ranger later just to get knowledge: Geo to the level it needed to be, but then I decided to abandon Horizon Walker altogether and just stick to the fighter/barb route, mostly because I didn't want to have to ever waste a feat on Endurance, I just couldn't bring myself to do it =). I'm currently level 7 and Barb 3/Fighter 4.

Regarding ranger spellcasting and animal companion, I meant that, should you ever decide to take more ranger levels the bonuses won't do much for you (read, almost nothing), whereas with fighter you would always have the potential to add in an extra level here or there (say, after you hit Horizon Walker 6-7 and get the dimension door and/or tremorsense you wanted) and get an immediate payout in the form of a badly needed feat.

I think that one level of barbarian is very much worth it -- I'd trade fast movement and rage and bonus skills/hp for one feat any day. Any more than one level though is not very valuable at all, so I personally would just take the one and then a level or two of fighter. Something like Barb1/Fighter1/Ranger3 for what you have in mind, methinks. Then you have the option of taking more fighter levels later on, after you've gotten what you want out of Horizon Walker.

edit: I probably wouldn't have abandoned the horizon walker plan if the DM hadn't let slip that our campaign (Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil) will probably end at around level 11 or 12. This means that, should my character even survive that long the chances of him actually ever getting to take advantage of the superior mobility and detection granted by Horizon Walker 6-7 are very low. So I decided to give up on it in favor of MORE POWER in the immediate sense, in terms of cleave/greatcleave as bonus fighter feats. I am now a whirling dervish of death against humanoid opponents (which this campaign is full of) in exchange for less mobility/effectiveness at the higher levels. I'm enjoying it while it lasts =).

Kaiyanwang
2010-06-14, 03:43 PM
If I recall correctly it worked that way in 3.0. A large part of 3.5 was making sure melee couldn't even have theoretically nice things.

Critical threat never automatically hit even in 3.0. In this case, is "melee cannot have imaginary things".

jiriku
2010-06-14, 04:17 PM
4. With Wis14 I can cast spells. Cure light wounds? lol

That's totally worthwhile, actually. For 750gp (the price of a cure serious wounds potion) you can get a wand of cure light wounds and heal the whole party between combats, saving the cleric any number of spell slots (and providing the party with a means of healing him up if he's knocked out).

Similarly, a wand of endure elements can be a useful party-support tool if you adventure in extreme environments. You'll get delay poison and resist energy only about 1 level later than the full casters will, and spells like entangle and speak with animals can really define your role in the party if there isn't a druid in the group.

woodenbandman
2010-06-14, 04:46 PM
You may want some barbarian in there, especially if unearthed arcana is in play. The very nice Whirling Frenzy ACF is great for a guy who wants MAX ATTAX

fracas
2010-06-14, 05:56 PM
Swiftest - Barb2 = uncanny dodge. It might not come up as often as, say, Improved Trip... but it's priceless when it does come up. I've had way too many beaters die to merciless backstabbing. :p

I could always swap to Human for the additional feat if needed. Elf/Wood elf are already of questionable merit considering my low Con.

Current plan is to take this build to Walker7 for dim door and tremorsense, then go into Barb for Rage progression and other goodies. Dip Ftr as needed to avoid multiclass XP penalties.

Wands of Cure Light and Entangle are on the to-buy list.