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veovius
2010-06-12, 03:22 AM
I'm trying to build a Iaijutsu Focus based Factotum with a Gnomish Quickrazor, but I'm having trouble getting an opponent flat-footed minus the first round of combat. What I don't get is the normal tricks : Grease, Invisibility, etc., since none of them say "Flat-footed", they all say "target loses Dex to AC" which isn't the same thing. Or is it?

Is there anything other than going first in combat that specifically makes an opponent "flat-footed"?

Edit: No skill tricks, btw.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-06-12, 03:34 AM
Anyone who has less than 5 ranks in Balance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/balance.htm) is considered flat-footed while 'balancing'. That includes standing on a Grease spell (RAW and confirmed by the FAQ), or if you throw marbles on the ground under them (A&EG). A bag of marbles costs 2 sp and covers a single 5-ft. square, so you could have one ready as a weapon-like object, quick-draw it, drop it into the adjacent square as a free action, and full attack the flat-footed opponent.

Critical
2010-06-12, 03:38 AM
Win Initiative! :smallbiggrin:

Pink
2010-06-12, 04:01 AM
*pays attention to this thread just in case*

ForzaFiori
2010-06-12, 04:02 AM
Bluffing like crazy works if, like most people, those you're fighting didn't put ranks into sense motive.

veovius
2010-06-12, 04:04 AM
*pays attention to this thread just in case*

I was thinking about it today, and minus Grease, it looks like my combat tactics involve jumping beside the enemy, flailing my arms in his face for gobs of damage, then 5-footing back next round to poke him gently with a spear.....

veovius
2010-06-12, 04:07 AM
Bluffing like crazy works if, like most people, those you're fighting didn't put ranks into sense motive.
But doesn't that just deny Dex to AC?

2xMachina
2010-06-12, 04:12 AM
Invisible Blade 5. Feint as free action
Surprising Riposte. Feinted opponent that takes damage is flat flooted.

So, feint, hit once, then Iaijutsu away.

Or just get an Unseen Servant to drop the marbles.

Pink
2010-06-12, 04:12 AM
I was thinking about it today, and minus Grease, it looks like my combat tactics involve jumping beside the enemy, flailing my arms in his face for gobs of damage, then 5-footing back next round to poke him gently with a spear.....

You have sapphire nightmare blade as well, you can potentially be casting grease, and you can use inpiration points as well to get sneak attack and other things. You got ways as is.

Also, not saying I'm perching here to look for things to deny you, just interested in what comes up and such.

I'm also curious, is common practice to allow iaijutsu focus when the target is denied dexterity?

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-06-12, 05:05 AM
If you attack a flat-footed opponent immediately
after drawing a melee weapon, you can deal extra damage,
based on the result of an Iaijutsu Focus check.
There is errata on OA, but it only addresses a typo having to do with attacking objects with Iaijutsu Focus.

Flat-Footed
A character who has not yet acted during a combat is flat-footed, not yet reacting normally to the situation. A flat-footed character loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) and cannot make attacks of opportunity.
Losing your Dex bonus to AC is a result of being flat-footed, not a cause of it. There are many ways to deny your opponent their Dex bonus to AC, but only one of them causes them to be considered flat-footed. Denied Dex =/= Flat-Footed. Being flat-footed leads to being denied your Dex bonus, not the other way around.

PId6
2010-06-12, 09:20 AM
Mercurial Strike - Feat from DR310. Whenever someone provokes AoO from you while you're unarmed, you can draw a weapon and attack them with it, and they're flat-footed for that attack. Works awesomely well with Quickrazor, especially if you have Robilar's Gambit as well.

Person_Man
2010-06-12, 02:08 PM
This (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88633) might help. Confound the Big Folk and Skill Tricks FTW.

veovius
2010-06-12, 02:23 PM
This (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88633) might help. Confound the Big Folk and Skill Tricks FTW.
Hi! Thanks for posting, I've read a bunch of your stuff. Unfortunately, I'm locked into human, and no skill tricks.

veovius
2010-06-12, 09:33 PM
Mercurial Strike - Feat from DR310. Whenever someone provokes AoO from you while you're unarmed, you can draw a weapon and attack them with it, and they're flat-footed for that attack. Works awesomely well with Quickrazor, especially if you have Robilar's Gambit as well.

Mercurial Strike's got a prerequisite of BAB +5, and Quick Draw. So no go till next level for me.

Robilar's Gambit has prerequisite of BAB +12, so it's going to be a while.

Any other options? It's nice to have something to plan for, though.

PId6
2010-06-12, 09:42 PM
Any other options?
Sapphire Nightmare Blade has already been mentioned. Surprising Riposte has been mentioned as well. Gloom Razor (ToB) lets you flat-foot someone for one attack every turn as long as you keep moving. Beyond that, not really.

If you want to focus on Iaijutsu, Iaijutsu Master is well worth it. Five levels get you the awesome Strike from the Void, while eight levels can double your damage potentially.

AmberVael
2010-06-12, 09:51 PM
Flick of the Wrist allows you to catch someone flat-footed, but with some limitations on how many times you can do it per encounter.

It's perfect with Iaijutsu though, given that you should really have Quickdraw already. You do need to be using a light weapon though.

Edit: Well, you don't need Quickdraw with a Quickrazor, but it IS a light weapon... I don't know if spending the feat is worth it. Since Quickrazor is exotic, maybe see if your DM will allow you to use Flick of the Wrist with just it and have it count as the prereq?

Wings of Peace
2010-06-13, 03:58 AM
Hide in Plain Sight builds actually work brilliantly with Iaijutsu builds since attacking enemies while hidden renders them flat footed against your attacks. Good look figuring out how that works though. The hide rules are, at least in my opinion, growing increasingly vague as you try to accomplish more complex maneuvers.

In my opinion the best HiPS granting classes are Lurking Terror and Hellbreaker.

JaronK
2010-06-13, 04:30 AM
Blur Strike weapons are another easy way to do it.

JaronK

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-06-13, 05:01 AM
Hide in Plain Sight builds actually work brilliantly with Iaijutsu builds since attacking enemies while hidden renders them flat footed against your attacks. Good look figuring out how that works though. The hide rules are, at least in my opinion, growing increasingly vague as you try to accomplish more complex maneuvers.

In my opinion the best HiPS granting classes are Lurking Terror and Hellbreaker.

Invisible (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#invisibility) and Hidden (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/hide.htm) attackers do not cause the defender to be considered flat-footed, and neither does Feinting (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/bluff.htm). Ignoring their Dex bonus to AC when you attack is not enough to enable Iaijutsu Focus damage, you have to cause them to be affected by the Flat-Footed condition (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#flatFooted).

There are actually very few effects in the game which cause an opponent to be considered flat-footed. Flick of the Wrist (http://www.realmshelps.org/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Flick_of_the_Wrist) is one of these, as is causing them to be considered balancing (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/balance.htm) as long as they have less than 5 ranks in Balance, and of course winning initiative and/or attacking in a surprise round. Again, simply denying them their Dex bonus to AC is not good enough. You're denied your Dex bonus to AC whenever you're Flat-Footed, but you're not considered Flat-Footed every time you're denied your Dex bonus to AC.

true_shinken
2010-06-13, 09:33 AM
Acrobatic Backstab skill trick also helps.
Really, between winning initiative, grease, sapphire nightmare blade and flick ofn the wrist... that's A LOT already.

AmberVael
2010-06-13, 09:39 AM
Ah, I just remembered another way to get someone flat-footed which is often overlooked, yet extraordinarily simple to get.

Palm dagger.
It's a use for Sleight of Hand found in Complete Warrior. You need Quickdraw for it, so it is great when paired with Flick of the Wrist (which I mentioned earlier, and Biffoniacus gave a link to).

Essentially, if you fight against someone for two rounds, the next round you can make a Sleight of Hand check, quickdraw your dagger, and stab them with it- and they're flat-footed.

I used to have this rogue build which focused around these kinds of things- I pumped initiative so he'd be able to hit someone on the first round while they were flat-footed. Then, he'd drop his first weapon and flick out the next with Flick of the Wrist and stab them again on the next round. After that- bam, Palm dagger.
Works wonders for a low level Rogue build (that is, before multiple attacks).