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View Full Version : VoP: Which Classes can be played with it.



taltamir
2010-06-12, 01:29 PM
I recall reading that certain classes such as wizard or cleric simply cannot play as VoP (because it prevents them from casting spells). I realized that with enough ACFs, obscure feats, and other loopholes it is probably possible to play most classes. So lets find out and categorize all of those.

Wizard: Get Eschew Materials and the eidetic caster ACF (trade your familiar for the ability to have a spellbook for using your own mind as a spellbook. Pay 100gp per SL in magic incense to learn new spells from a scroll/capture book; levelup spells still free). You would not be able to use expensive material components, bind a familiar (which you trade away anyways), nor would you be able to actually buy the magic incense to learn new spells, so you are limited to spells gained in level up... but it is actually doable.
You should really get collegiate for the extra spells known since you can't learn new spells without breaking VoP.

Bard: Perform (song / oratory / etc)... as long as it makes sound without an instrument you are good.

Druid: Eschew materials.

Sorcerer: Eschew materials.

Cleric: Eschew materials. Waiting for a solution for the need to have a holy symbol. lets see who can first find one.

Quietus
2010-06-12, 01:45 PM
Cleric: Eschew materials. Waiting for a solution for the need to have a holy symbol. lets see who can first find one.

Level 0 spell, Summon Holy Symbol?

taltamir
2010-06-12, 01:47 PM
Level 0 spell, Summon Holy Symbol?

which book?

Greenish
2010-06-12, 01:54 PM
Totemist and Incarnate just might work, since their class features are essentially strong magic items.

Dragonfire Adept can at least alleviate the flaws of VoP.

The Shadowmind
2010-06-12, 01:57 PM
Warlock, similar to Dragonfire Adept.

ragingrage
2010-06-12, 01:58 PM
scratch [insert holy symbol here] onto your skin?

SaintRidley
2010-06-12, 02:05 PM
Psion, Wilder should be doable.

Warlock, as mentioned above.

Cleric, if you tattoo your holy symbol and eschew materials.

Sorcerer, Wizard (variant mentioned above), Warmage, eschewing materials. Beguiler wouldn't be likely to work as well, and Dread Necromancer is right out.

You might as well Monk it up. What else are you going to do with a monk?

Commoner? You're already poor.


A friend once told me that for me specifically, he would not allow me to have the holly and mistletoe a druid uses for a divine focus without it breaking my vow. I think he fears what I could do with a druid.

Greenish
2010-06-12, 02:11 PM
Psion, Wilder should be doable.Psychic Warrior perhaps too, they can create their own armour and weapons.


Sorcerer, Wizard (variant mentioned above), Warmage, eschewing materials.Sorcerers and especially warmages couldn't cover their weaknesses with just their spells. Sorcerer with very careful spell selection might not be worthless, but warmages would be even more screwed than usually.

I would even say that Beguilers would do better with VoP than Warmages.

[Edit]:
You might as well Monk it up. What else are you going to do with a monk?UMD is monk's strongest feature.

Rannil
2010-06-12, 02:19 PM
Cleric: Eschew materials. Waiting for a solution for the need to have a holy symbol. lets see who can first find one.

More feats?

When I looked on Wizards feat list (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/lists/feats&tablefilter=holy%20symbol) I found:
Worldly Focus (Faiths of Eberron p148) Your belief in the omnipresence of the gods is so strong, you can channel your spells through the environment rather than a holy symbol.
But I don't have that book here to check if it really works.

Also not sure if tattooing/scratching in your skin would work RAW. Every mention of a "Holy Symbol" seems to be about the item, not the symbol of the god. :smallconfused:

Divine Focus (DF)
A divine focus component is an item of spiritual significance.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm

Unless your skin/tattoo ink(is that an item? it does cost money?) would qualify.

gorfnab
2010-06-12, 02:20 PM
which book?
(Summon Holy Symbol) Complete Champion page 128


Cleric, if you tattoo your holy symbol and eschew materials.

Though this is a better option, or the Worldly Focus feat.

Unarmed Swordsage would work better than a Monk with VoP. Savage progression like the Astral Deva or Ghaele from Savage Species might work as well.

Rannil
2010-06-12, 02:28 PM
(Summon Holy Symbol) Complete Champion page 128

That only lasts one round per level. Quite problematic short at the early levels. A level one cleric wouldn't even be able to use it next round because it's already gone. :smalltongue:

Unless you spend feats/abilities/stuff to extend it or increase CL (You can persist it, the range is fixed (At 0 ft):smalltongue:), it really doesn't seem useful until higher levels.

Edit:
Materials: It is completely legal to beg for Spell Components from party members! Heck it is even advised to do so. :smallconfused:
Also you can trade in the need for gp in spell components to xp. Which nobody probably does, because like 1 XP is equivalent to 5 gp value of components.

And you may carry a spell component beg under a vow of poverty, so wouldn't that assume you can have spell materials, only not the expensive ones you need to buy and aren't covered by eschew materials anyways?

As for the holy symbol, you can have a homespun robe, can't you weave a holy symbol on a robe and use that? Then it truly is an item. Or else engrave it on the quarterstaff or other simple weapon you carry.

PId6
2010-06-12, 03:00 PM
Why Eschew Materials? A spell components pouch is explicitly allowed by the Vow, so that's a waste of a feat.

Edit: Ninja'd by an edit! This amuses me.

Jack_Simth
2010-06-12, 03:35 PM
I was thinking about it and I realized that with eschew materials and the eidetic caster ACF (trade your familiar for the ability to have a spellbook for using your own mind as a spellbook. Pay 100gp per SL in magic incense to learn new spells from a scroll/capture book). You would not be able to use expensive material components, bind a familiar (which you trade away anyways), nor would you be able to actually buy the magic incense to learn new spells, so you are limited to spells gained in level up... but it is actually doable.

Which brings me to my question. Which class CAN be played with a VoP?
Is there some method to make a cleric playable for example?
Cleric: Full Caster, can get such spells as Air Walk and Wind walk to cover flight, Flame Strike to cover ranged damage. Just find a way to convince your DM that you can still gain and use a Divine Focus.
Druid: Has little-to-no problems, and even gets some bonus - as most equipment doesn't work in Wildshaped form, but the Vow of Poverty bonuses do.
Sorcerer: All you really need is a spell components pouch.
Wizard: You went over it - playable, but not as strong as a normal Wizard.

Basically, almost any Full Caster can make it work.

GoodbyeSoberDay
2010-06-12, 04:10 PM
In the wizard's case I would suggest not only collegiate wizard, but an Elven Generalist Domain Wizard, so you'll have eleven spells known at each spell level (6 of your highest at odd levels), plus too many first level spells and cantrips to properly recount.

Critical
2010-06-12, 04:30 PM
Commoner? You're already poor.


Damn. Now I must play a VoP commoner.

balistafreak
2010-06-12, 04:36 PM
Artificer.

*smack*

More seriously, I'm just here to confirm that yes, Worldly Focus in every way shape and form is like having a Holy Symbol in your pocket.

It says that you have to be a Worshiper of the Soverign Host, but seriously, no one ever cared about fluff pre-requisites.


BENEFIT: You can cast cleric spells without the need of a divine focus.

NORMAL: Many cleric spells require a divine focus to cast.

Consider it a feat-tax for the VoP cleric. That, or seven turn attempts for Persisting Summon Holy Symbol... which is also basically a feat-tax as one Extra Turning will get you 8 turns if you've double-dipped like a good DMM Cleric.


Damn. Now I must play a VoP Commoner.

Take Chicken-Infested and feed the masses.

ShadowsGrnEyes
2010-06-12, 08:15 PM
Solution to the holy symbol thing. . . A tattoo. . .

but more importantly. . .


VOW OF POVERTY [EXALTED]
You have taken a sacred vow to forswear material possessions.
Prerequisites: Sacred Vow.
Benefit: You gain bonuses to your Armor Class, ability scores,
and saving throws, as well as bonus exalted feats, all depending on
your character level. See Voluntary Poverty in Chapter 2 for details.
Special: To fulfill your vow, you must not own or use any
material possessions, with the following exceptions: You may
carry and use ordinary (neither magic nor masterwork) simple
weapons, usually just a quarterstaff that serves as a walking
stick. You may wear simple clothes (usually just a homespun
robe, possibly also including a hat and sandals) with no magical
properties. You may carry enough food to sustain you for one
day in a simple (nonmagic) sack or bag. You may carry and use a
spell component pouch. You may not use any magic item of any
sort, though you can benefit from magic items used on your
behalf—you can drink a potion of cure serious wounds a friend
gives you, receive a spell cast from a wand, scroll, or staff, or ride
on your companion’s ebony fly. You may not, however, “borrow” a
cloak of resistance or any other magic item from a companion for
even a single round, nor may you yourself cast a spell from a
scroll, wand, or staff.
If you break your vow, you immediately and irrevocably lose
the benefit of this feat. You may not take another feat to replace it.


If you are by the rules allowed to have a simple weapon or a SPELL COMPONENT POUCH. . . any gm worth their salt should let you have a holy symbol. .

DragoonWraith
2010-06-12, 08:31 PM
If you are by the rules allowed to have a simple weapon or a SPELL COMPONENT POUCH. . . any gm worth their salt should let you have a holy symbol. .
RAW and RAI, as explained by the author, is that Holy Symbols are not allowed. Author has actually stated that this was an intentional limitation of VoP. Presumably because he thought VoP Clerics were overpowered.

ShadowsGrnEyes
2010-06-12, 08:32 PM
RAW and RAI, as explained by the author, is that Holy Symbols are not allowed. Author has actually stated that this was an intentional limitation of VoP. Presumably because he thought VoP Clerics were overpowered.

then i argue RAMS and say would like to know why he didnt simply say "druids cannot take VOP" if he was worried about it being too powerful.

i'd house rule it to be okay. . .

going back to RAW. . .Tattoo. . . unless there is a rule that says a tattoo cannot be a holy symbol. . .

Samb
2010-06-13, 03:17 PM
Would the enchantment bonus of the mindblade stack with the one from VoP?

SaintRidley
2010-06-13, 03:29 PM
Would the enchantment bonus of the mindblade stack with the one from VoP?


Nah. That might make the Soulknife playable.


A friend of mine once did a VOP monk focusing on his AC. He liked to flavour his absurd defensive stats as his opponents faltering and not wanting to assault the poor. It was quite amusing.

Greenish
2010-06-13, 03:42 PM
Nah. That might make the Soulknife playable.Best combined with Soulbow. You might be poor, but you've got LAZORS!1!

Optimystik
2010-06-13, 03:47 PM
Level 0 spell, Summon Holy Symbol?

That won't work - VoP prevents you from using a holy symbol, not just owning one.

There is a way around it though - I need a minute to dig it up.

Sorcerers can make use of it - they don't need the spellbook and they are allowed the pouch. Just avoid spells withe expensive components.

Druids can also use it well, because their divine focus is not a holy symbol - it's a sprig of holly, a small pool of water, things like that.

Psionics and Incarnum can use it well, as can a Warlock and DFA.


Would the enchantment bonus of the mindblade stack with the one from VoP?

It won't; however, you can still apply the mind blade enhancements like Lucky and Suppression.
Also, Greenish is right - a VoP Soulbow is a deadly foe indeed.

Samb
2010-06-13, 04:01 PM
Hmm a VoP soulbow...... Intriging indeed.

If the enchantment bonuses did stack the mindblade would advance at twice the speed, which might be too balanced.

okpokalypse
2010-06-13, 04:10 PM
What about the Apostle of Peace from BoED?

As part of their sacred vows, apostles of peace forswear the use of armor, though they may wear magic items that protect them (such as a ring of protection or bracers of armor). An apostle of peace who wears any armor is unable to cast apostle of peace spells or use any of his supernatural class abilities while doing so and for 24 hours thereafter.

One of the PreReqs for Apostle of Peace is Vow of Poverty... How the heck is that supposed to work out?

Rannil
2010-06-13, 04:16 PM
That won't work - VoP prevents you from using a holy symbol, not just owning one.

Nothing in the description states anything about holy symbols. Basic rule is it's forbidden because it's not included in the exceptions. Extra it seems that the forbidden factor is intentional, but nothing states using. (And if I am wrong, please correct me, preferable with a source)

Unless you mean the part of "you may not use any magic item". And the item you summoned isn't magical, it's worthless wood, the spell description says so.

Either way that still means the feat (especially if the druids can use water as holy symbol), tailored in items, carved in skin and tattooed still work.. The only thing the holy symbol needs to be is an "item of spiritual significance". Still it's still vague whether such methods would count of not. Skin isn't really a item, tattoos need tattoo ink, which can be a possession if stretched. And your normal robe/hat/sandals can be too mundane to qualify for "spiritual significance".

Worldly Focus feat is the only safe bet.

Reynard
2010-06-13, 04:38 PM
[Edit]:UMD is monk's strongest feature.

What? No, seriously, what? Is this a poke at Giacomo?

It doesn't even have UMD as a class skill.

PId6
2010-06-13, 04:49 PM
What? No, seriously, what? Is this a poke at Giacomo?
If you see any post with the words "monk" and "UMD" in the same sentence on these forums, and it's not from Giacomo himself, chances are it's a joke. :smalltongue:

Jack_Simth
2010-06-13, 05:09 PM
What about the Apostle of Peace from BoED?

As part of their sacred vows, apostles of peace forswear the use of armor, though they may wear magic items that protect them (such as a ring of protection or bracers of armor). An apostle of peace who wears any armor is unable to cast apostle of peace spells or use any of his supernatural class abilities while doing so and for 24 hours thereafter.

One of the PreReqs for Apostle of Peace is Vow of Poverty... How the heck is that supposed to work out?
There's two basic hypothesis on how that works out:
1) The book was a group effort, and the person who ultimately added the Vow of Poverty as a requirement for the Apostle of Peace PrC didn't check to see if that Vow forbid anything mentioned in the PrC - no magical doodads for you!
2) That line was deliberately put in, and overrides the general rule of the Vow of Poverty itself, and defensive magic items that are not armor may be kept and worn (Good luck finding one that actually stacks with the grab-bag bonuses from the Vow, however...).

Optimystik
2010-06-13, 05:12 PM
Nothing in the description states anything about holy symbols. Basic rule is it's forbidden because it's not included in the exceptions. Extra it seems that the forbidden factor is intentional, but nothing states using. (And if I am wrong, please correct me, preferable with a source)

The feat was quoted above, did you miss it?


Special: To fulfill your vow, you must not own or use any
material possessions, with the following exceptions: You may
carry and use ordinary (neither magic nor masterwork) simple
weapons, usually just a quarterstaff that serves as a walking
stick. You may wear simple clothes (usually just a homespun
robe, possibly also including a hat and sandals) with no magical
properties. You may carry enough food to sustain you for one
day in a simple (nonmagic) sack or bag. You may carry and use a
spell component pouch.

A holy symbol is a material possession - and because it is not listed as an exception, it is thus not allowed by RAW.

Furthermore, RAI can be found in this article: (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sg/20060616a)


You Can Make It Work, But It's a Big Handicap: Barbarian, Cleric, Fighter, Paladin. These classes rely substantially on versatility in weapons and armor. Clerics have a lot of spells with divine foci, so it's hard to avoid them. Paladins and clerics cannot turn undead without a holy symbol.

Therefore, lack of a holy symbol was intended.

For druids (from the same article) we have the following:


Not too many druid spells have divine focus requirements (a divine focus is not a spell component), and for some of those, the focus is something natural like a pool of water.

This is used as an explanation of why it fits druids better than clerics.

Rannil
2010-06-13, 05:29 PM
A holy symbol is a material possession - and because it is not listed as an exception, it is thus not allowed by RAW.

Furthermore, RAI can be found in this article: (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sg/20060616a)

I see. I yield.

Reading that I don't think using clothing as holy symbol would work. Still you can brand it in your skin, but I guess that wouldn't be RAI as well.

So one feat to make a VoP cleric work, would work for a paladin too.

A dagger wielding VoP paladin. :smallbiggrin:

Greenish
2010-06-13, 05:34 PM
UMD is monk's strongest feature.
It doesn't even have UMD as a class skill.The two statements aren't mutually exclusive. :smallcool:

Reynard
2010-06-13, 05:38 PM
You may as well say UMD is the strongest feature of the Fighter.

Except it isn't. How can it be a feature of a class if it's available to every other class, and many classes are better at it?

And you're joking, and my argument has probably been shouted in exasperation at some point during every Monk thread since Giocomo's handbook.

Optimystik
2010-06-13, 05:47 PM
I see. I yield.

Reading that I don't think using clothing as holy symbol would work. Still you can brand it in your skin, but I guess that wouldn't be RAI as well.

So one feat to make a VoP cleric work, would work for a paladin too.

A dagger wielding VoP paladin. :smallbiggrin:

Worldly Focus would work as you suggested, but it requires you to worship the Sovereign Host, so no worshiping ideals or other deities. However, the Host have a nice selection of domains anyway, so it's not a huge loss. That's still 3 feats tied up just in making your VoP cleric work though.


You may as well say UMD is the strongest feature of the Fighter.

Exactly! You're getting it! :smalltongue:

Jack_Simth
2010-06-13, 05:56 PM
Therefore, lack of a holy symbol was intended.There's ways around it - obscure (or campaign-specific) deities where the Holy Symbol is a simple weapon, or is something that you'd always have on hand anyway.

Oh yes, and the Druid suffers the same problem that the Cleric does on the Divine Focus: It's still a game-defined object, not listed as one of the things the Vow of Poverty character is permitted to own or use... despite it having a cost of "-" (treated as 0 by most DM's).

Of course, the Vow of Poverty Monk is also technically not permitted to use a doorknob....

Rannil
2010-06-13, 06:02 PM
Worldly Focus would work as you suggested, but it requires you to worship the Sovereign Host, so no worshiping ideals or other deities. However, the Host have a nice selection of domains anyway, so it's not a huge loss. That's still 3 feats tied up just in making your VoP cleric work though.

3 feats? prerequisites? Kinda lack the book to check that.:smallfrown:

Jack_Simth
2010-06-13, 06:11 PM
3 feats? prerequisites? Kinda lack the book to check that.:smallfrown:
Ah, unless it's been Errata'd, I'm reasonably sure Optimystik is referring to Sacred Vow, Vow of Poverty, and Worldly Focus.

JaronK
2010-06-13, 06:18 PM
Easiest way to do a Wizard with this: Shadowcraft Mage + Collegate Wizard + Eidetic Caster. SCM means your spell components for most spells is just a focus... some fleece. You're wearing that. Now you can cast all Evocations and most Conjurations. Use your other spells known (you get 4 per level, or 8 per spell level) to round out your selection. You should have no trouble from here.

Unfortunately, there's no way to use Tainted Sorcerer with this (due to the evil requirement). If you could do that you'd be golden. But consider Mage of the Arcane Order for more spell versatility.

JaronK

Dr.Epic
2010-06-13, 06:20 PM
Monk probably works best with it.
Druid can also have a nice build.
Sorcerer might work too but with material components it might be difficult.

Optimystik
2010-06-13, 06:27 PM
Ah, unless it's been Errata'd, I'm reasonably sure Optimystik is referring to Sacred Vow, Vow of Poverty, and Worldly Focus.

Correct.
Wordly Focus has no prereqs, besides "Must worship the Sovereign Host."


Monk probably works best with it.

That depends on the opposition. If your foes gain certain abilities (e.g. flight) you will have a hard time keeping up.

Even invisibility can be problematic, because you don't gain True Seeing until 18.

TripperdeCleric
2010-06-13, 06:33 PM
After seeing alot of stuff on VoP...i suggested it to a friend...he thought it would be nice. Now is it possible? Is it ok? or is it just a bad idea?


If so what would be the build for a level 10 start campaign can take 4 flaws.

PId6
2010-06-13, 06:35 PM
Now is it possible? Is it ok? or is it just a bad idea?
Bolding mine.

Gnaeus
2010-06-13, 06:35 PM
Bad idea. Barbarians need more than bonuses from items, they need abilities (like flight) that VOP can't give them.

Amphetryon
2010-06-13, 06:37 PM
Frostrager (in Frostburn, funnily enough) is as close as you're going to get to a workable way to do what you're after.

Jack_Simth
2010-06-13, 06:38 PM
But consider Mage of the Arcane Order for more spell versatility.Mage of the Arcane Order won't fly too well under most DM's - you can't pay your dues, and you can't own that special expensive focus.

Monk probably works best with it.They can work okay if you're in a tightly-controlled region - you can't do much about flying opponents (well, okay - light crossbow and rapid reload, with a sling as a backup... but you're going to need to spend feats for the proficiency), invisible opponents (you don't get True Seeing until 18th), and anything that needs teleportation effects will leave you in a bind. If you're in a dungeon with ten-foot ceilings, it's not a problem, though, and the monk can be made to work.

Druid can also have a nice build.Druid will do fairly well, as a full caster with Wildshape and no spellbook... although a one-level dip into Monk or Ninja can do wonders.

Sorcerer might work too but with material components it might be difficult.Eh, you only really need to worry about expensive material components and expensive focuses. The rest? In the permitted Spell Components pouch. And there's a note on adaptation that your DM can be permitted to let you spend XP instead of GP for the expensive components.

TripperdeCleric
2010-06-13, 06:39 PM
Ok so need items and stuff to work out. Thank you guys.

Optimystik
2010-06-13, 06:41 PM
Frostrager (in Frostburn, funnily enough) is as close as you're going to get to a workable way to do what you're after.

Totem Rager can pull it off too, due to Incarnum.

jokey665
2010-06-13, 06:41 PM
We had a VoP Barbarian/Bear Warrior/Warshaper (I think) in a lv20 game who performed surprisingly well. He had Master of Mockery to keep stuff attacking him, and he had gobs and gobs of hit points and could do a good deal of damage, as well.

strider24seven
2010-06-13, 09:49 PM
Favorite VoP builds:

Druid 20. Yeah.

Monk/Ranger/Deepwarden/Fist of the Forest/Kensai. You are a holy dwarf that has a most heavily enchanted beard.

Soulknife/Soulbow/Kensai. You have uber lasers. And you are holy.

NM020110
2010-06-13, 10:53 PM
Reading through the Immortal's Handbook, I found an interesting way around the holy symbol restriction: worship a deity/prophet/abomination/demon prince/<insert immortal here> with the Entropy portfolio. Their holy symbol is "Nothing", thus resulting in the same effect as Worldly Focus, minus the requirement for worshiping the Sovereign Host, and minus the feat requirement.

It is, however, unlikely that a DM will accept material from that source due to the generally large numbers involved within the handbooks.

I would advise caution in attempting to use this "loophole", as it could result in the rules being interpreted such that "Nothingness" has a material value, thus leading to unpleasant consequences, such as:

Player character 1: "Hello merchant! Would you be interested in adding a few ancient and powerful relics to your inventory?"
Merchant: "Sure, why not."
Player character 1: "Alright, have <arbitrarily high number> units of Nothingness for one copper piece each!"
DM: :smallannoyed: "What is your AC?"
Player 1: "Why?"
DM: "I full attack with the Dungeon Master's Guide."

okpokalypse
2010-06-13, 10:56 PM
There's ways around it - obscure (or campaign-specific) deities where the Holy Symbol is a simple weapon, or is something that you'd always have on hand anyway.

Oh yes, and the Druid suffers the same problem that the Cleric does on the Divine Focus: It's still a game-defined object, not listed as one of the things the Vow of Poverty character is permitted to own or use... despite it having a cost of "-" (treated as 0 by most DM's).

Of course, the Vow of Poverty Monk is also technically not permitted to use a doorknob....

It doesn't matter what the symbol is per se as long as it's a symbol. Just have it tattooed on each of your palms and you're good to go. It's not a possession, it's a non-material adornment upon your person that has no intrinsic value. Problem solved.

balistafreak
2010-06-13, 11:06 PM
It doesn't matter what the symbol is per se as long as it's a symbol. Just have it tattooed on each of your palms and you're good to go. It's not a possession, it's a non-material adornment upon your person that has no intrinsic value. Problem solved.

Says you, but not the (admittedly off-his-rocker-at-times) Sage and RAW. Yeah, life sucks, I know. :smallwink:

I don't usually advocate slipping one past the DM, but if you really want to play a divine caster I don't think any DM will notice you not mentioning that you can't technically have a Holy Symbol.

(For that matter, I know a whole lot of DMs forget about Holy Symbols and basic Material Components in the first place. Nothing like "I sunder his pouch" to make them jerk in surprise. :smallbiggrin:)

Scribble
2010-06-13, 11:27 PM
I did the VoP Soulbow thing for a game once, it actually got boring.. I basically did the same thing every round in combat, I guess I just like more variety in my characters.

okpokalypse
2010-06-13, 11:33 PM
Says you, but not the (admittedly off-his-rocker-at-times) Sage and RAW. Yeah, life sucks, I know. :smallwink:

I don't usually advocate slipping one past the DM, but if you really want to play a divine caster I don't think any DM will notice you not mentioning that you can't technically have a Holy Symbol.

(For that matter, I know a whole lot of DMs forget about Holy Symbols and basic Material Components in the first place. Nothing like "I sunder his pouch" to make them jerk in surprise. :smallbiggrin:)

If you started with VoP at L1 - then yes. But if you get it at 3rd, you can already have the tattoos. GETTING the tattoos is the violation, not having them on you since it's - quite plainly - not a possession.

Similarly, anything can be a holy symbol. The Holy Symbols in the PHB are tools of Orders, but there are multiples references throughout 3.x D&D that states a holy symbol can be etched onto an object, even a common one, and function fine. So per the VoP - it's etched on an allowed simple weapon (via a craft skill the VoP'er has - so it costs nothing).

And again, Holy Symbol is a misnomer I think we're all stuck on. What we're talking about is actually Divine Focus - which in the vast majority of cases for a Cleric is a Holy Symbol - but nothing states it absolutely must be a Holy Symbol in the sense of the item purchased via the "Tools" section of the PHB nor does anything state that a DF must have intrinsic value.

Look at the DF for a Druid for a perfect example...

okpokalypse
2010-06-13, 11:38 PM
I think the best VoP'er might be the Psion when all is said and done.

Optimystik
2010-06-14, 01:08 AM
I don't usually advocate slipping one past the DM, but if you really want to play a divine caster I don't think any DM will notice you not mentioning that you can't technically have a Holy Symbol.

This strikes me as the sort of strategy that could easily backfire :smalltongue:

If you're a Warforged, the Landforged Walker PrC is a nice way for your divine caster to take VoP - they have an ability that lets your body count as your divine focus.


I think the best VoP'er might be the Psion when all is said and done.

Spell-to-power Erudite, actually. Not only do they get access to all psionic powers and wizard spells, not only do they not need spellbooks or components for any of them... they can also even cast all the spells with expensive components (like forcecage) just by spending additional power points.

Cogidubnus
2010-06-14, 07:16 AM
I don't think the VoP fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=140428) has been mentioned before. Swear I'd done it but couldn't find my post. Helped a friend build a ?good? monk using that and Falling Star Strike (http://www.realmshelps.org/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Falling_Star_Strike), his basic objective being to blind every enemy we meet until my Warblade can batter them into the next realm. Fits nicely with the whole "Exalted" alignment ideals too. In any case, I think any level 6 character with an AC of 30 is useful to have around.