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Mr. Anon Omys
2010-06-12, 02:29 PM
I just finished with a gaming session that ended early because one of the players stormed off and the dm refused to continue with two of the four players missing (one player was unable to attend today). The player stormed off because one of the other players is using a ridiculous combat based homebrewed class (creates force blades which do 4d6 damage, flies with a speed of 120, full BAB, ect.) and so our combat focoused group is feeling a little underpowered next to him. I dealt with this by multiclassing my monk into swift druid, and the player that could not attend was playing a multiclassed rouge/fighter/bard. However, angryplayer is playing a typical dwarven fighter, and feels way underpowered, especially since my monk has special, nonstandard abilities. What can be done to help angryplayer? (Note, this is in a low magic, epic level campaign. We are currently in Palusidar, hidden land of the dinosaurs. Missing player was just kidnapped by lizardmen.)

Thanks playgrounders.

AstralFire
2010-06-12, 02:32 PM
I was feeling sympathetic up until I read the part where this is an epic level campaign. In what epic level campaign is 120 ft. flight and 4d6 damage worth talking about? Or... or rogue/fighter/bard?! What is this I don't even

I... think we need more information about what everyone's capable of, and what he likes to do. And what their tableside behavior is like.

Starbuck_II
2010-06-12, 03:06 PM
(Note, this is in a low magic, epic level campaign. We are currently in Palusidar, hidden land of the dinosaurs. Missing player was just kidnapped by lizardmen.)

Thanks playgrounders.

Explain:
low magic + Epic? How does this work?

The Glyphstone
2010-06-12, 03:08 PM
Explain:
low magic + Epic? How does this work?

I'm more concerned about the Epic + 4d6 = Overpowered. We may have an accidental refugee here from some bizzare alternate parallel universe, possibly the one where the Giamonk was invented.

Sliver
2010-06-12, 03:10 PM
I'm more concerned about the Epic + 4d6 = Overpowered.

Don't forget the full BAB.

I'll kill the reference before anyone else makes it.

No familiar and no specializing, so it's alright!

The Glyphstone
2010-06-12, 03:13 PM
Right - clearly, their entire group has sacrificed power for flavor.

AstralFire
2010-06-12, 03:15 PM
Their group has killed my brain what is this I don't even

GoodbyeSoberDay
2010-06-12, 03:28 PM
Some people play at lower power levels than prescribed on the tuberblags? MY MIND, IT IS CRUSHED.

Anyway, here's the easy, useless reply: Get him to play a wizard with epic leadership* and epic spellcasting. Get his cohorts to contribute spell slots to mitigate the spellcraft DC** of any epic spell he attempts to create. Create an epic spell that creates loyal coatls or anything else that can give you spell slots to mitigate the spellcraft DC more powerful epic spells. Repeat until you're able to create stars at will. He will never complain about being underpowered again.

*I know you don't need epic leadership, but it's an easier (and somehow less abusive) start than gate chaining.
** By 'mitigate,' I mean 'reduce to 0'.

In all seriousness, I suppose you don't have any casters because of this low magic business. This means that epic is still a poorly crafted system, but without casters it's actually not broken per se. Dot dot dot rest of the forum dot dot dot. Just let him play a more powerful homebrew class. Heck, if 4d6 force blades is getting too real, let him play a class from the Tome of Battle and then add on random epic class levels for gits and shiggles.

An easier solution might be to give him an item that grants 5d6 force blades and 130' flight using ridiculous epic wealth by level.

Riffington
2010-06-12, 03:34 PM
Maybe we are making incorrect assumptions. What level is "epic"?

DragoonWraith
2010-06-12, 03:38 PM
One, the Fighter is a terrible class. Basically, he should feel underpowered - the class is underpowered. Kudos to him for noticing. Suggest he replace Fighter levels with levels of Warblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060802a&page=2), using the Maneuver Cards (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20061225a) to get the text of the maneuvers. Seriously, it's massively better designed and should be much less frustrating for him. If you actually have Tome of Battle, the Deepstone Sentinel should be right up his Dwarven alley.

Two, the Monk is even worse than the Fighter, though without knowing the specifics of the special abilities you mentioned, I can't definitively comment on that. I'd suggest the Swordsage (unarmed variant if you like) from Tome of Battle as a great replacement, very similar to the Warblade up there. If the Warblade is the Fighter, the Swordsage is a Monk. Maybe a bit of Rogue in there, and with Desert Wind he gets a bit of magical ability that's not really found anywhere else but could be some kind of monk/arcane multiclass. If you don't have Tome of Battle, personally I find this homebrew fix (http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AYdLcxsM7Nx0ZGc2NzhibjNfNzJnNWpkZDJ2cA&hl=en&pli=1) quite appealing. There are numerous others.

Three, multiclassing hurts Druids and Bards badly. "Thou shalt not lose spellcasting levels" is basically rule number one in D&D 3.5. Both of those do have other features worth using, though, and depending on the exact mix of levels it might not be bad; both are great classes anyway.

Fourth, do you have the details of this homebrew class? Without that it's really hard to comment.

Tavar
2010-06-12, 03:40 PM
Echoing the question about the homebrew.

EagleWiz
2010-06-12, 04:03 PM
Maby this is 4e (where epic is way less OP)(pleasebe4eandnot3.5)

PId6
2010-06-12, 04:04 PM
Maby this is 4e (where epic is way less OP)(pleasebe4eandnot3.5)
Somehow seems unlikely:

multiclassed rouge/fighter/bard.

DragoonWraith
2010-06-12, 04:13 PM
4e Bards can multiclass with more than one class, but again, I agree, this does not sound like 4e.

Comet
2010-06-12, 04:17 PM
Here's a thought:

Maybe the player with the ridiculous overpowered homebrew class could drop that particular class and play by the gosh darn rules.

I dunno, just thinking aloud here.

AstralFire
2010-06-12, 04:20 PM
Here's a thought:

Maybe the player with the ridiculous overpowered homebrew class could drop that particular class and play by the gosh darn rules.

I dunno, just thinking aloud here.

But... but it doesn't even sound overpowered considering this is epic.

DragoonWraith
2010-06-12, 04:21 PM
Here's a thought:

Maybe the player with the ridiculous overpowered homebrew class could drop that particular class and play by the gosh darn rules.

I dunno, just thinking aloud here.
Or maybe the class isn't overpowered at all and the Fighter and Monk should stop playing poorly designed, awfully weak classes, and homebrew work is often superior to Wizards' own? Just thinking aloud here.

PId6
2010-06-12, 04:21 PM
Maybe the player with the ridiculous overpowered homebrew class could drop that particular class and play by the gosh darn rules.
Because by the sounds of it, it's... not. Overpowered. At all.

Edit: That's a lot of ninjas swordsages.

Comet
2010-06-12, 04:25 PM
But... but it doesn't even sound overpowered considering this is epic.

Yeah, there's that. Then again, he's pretty overpowered relative to the other characters, so some toning down couldn't hurt.


Or maybe the class isn't overpowered at all and the Fighter and Monk should stop playing poorly designed, awfully weak classes, and homebrew work is often superior to Wizards' own? Just thinking aloud here.

That works for some groups. Judging by what we've read so far, this group doesn't seem to be very CharOp-oriented, though. Again, it's all relative.

AstralFire
2010-06-12, 04:28 PM
I admit - the simplest solution is simply for the homebrew player to tone down. The most important thing is that everyone is having fun, and clearly this level of optimization is working for them. I just want to know about power levels because of morbid curiosity at this point.

Fenrazer
2010-06-12, 04:56 PM
Aye, but I'd probably find a way to make them closer to equals without tearing down the supposed OPHB. I'd rather find a way to get everybody else to his level to make them feel better about their station instead of making OPHB ticked off. Either that, or put the OPHB against more difficult challenges and find a way to slow his progress, again, so the team can match his level of performance.

DragoonWraith
2010-06-12, 04:59 PM
I just think that no one should play core melee if they can avoid it.

awa
2010-06-13, 02:08 AM
rember his monk is homebrewed not a core monk and depending on what these "nonstandard abbilites" are he might be quite effective. by personal though is that if one player is far out of line with the rest of the parties power level then you should do somethoing about thast player. If the dwarf is the odd man out maby give him a homebrew prestige class to catch him up with the rest of the party you already have one (this has the added benifit ofg not forcing you to buy a new book) if the flying force blade guy is the odd man out then you should nerf him without having seen the class i can't give any advice on how to nerf properly.

Godskook
2010-06-13, 02:30 AM
Yeah, there's that. Then again, he's pretty overpowered relative to the other characters, so some toning down couldn't hurt.

I could churn out a L10 character, using WotC only(and RAI friendly), and get more scary numbers than that L21+ homebrew.

To wit, here's a L5 character that I've already made, with only one RAW v. RAI issue(Dragonborn Warforged): http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=201155

Mystic Muse
2010-06-13, 02:57 AM
Okay, how does low magic epic work exactly?

Also, since everybody seems to be better than this guy, how about he tones himself up using TOB like others have suggested?

It'd help if we knew what the homebrew classes were capable of.

Hendel
2010-06-13, 03:51 AM
Hmmm...DM allowed a homebrewed class into the game and the DM stopped down the game when the player left, so being a DM myself, I would say this is a DM related issue.

There is nothing wrong with homebrew class/race/whatever. There is nothing wrong with a low-magic epic campaign (strange, but not wrong). I agree with many of the posts that it does not seem overpowering for an epic game, but I could be wrong when you compare it to the other characters.

I just get back to the fact that the DM allowed it, so he is the one who needs to fix this situation either in game or out of game. My solution would be for the other players to petition the DM to fix the unbalanced nature of the class/campaign/whatever.

Kol Korran
2010-06-13, 07:15 AM
i think we may be scaring the OP who just wanted advice. but on the subject of Epic- maybe he means it has an epic "feel/theme/flavour"? i've seen some low level campaign that felt damn epic to me.

Mr. Anon Omys
2010-06-13, 07:23 AM
First, I want to thank the playgroud community for giving me advice. Now, on to more details on the campain.

First, the setting. This is a post apocolyptic world, where an evil vampiric Kull (homebrewed) gestalt Soceror 20/Barbarian 20 rules the world from his giant tower set in a demiplane that intersects with the prime material in a ring of giant mountains. Said vampire squashed nearly all magic users three hundred years ago in his bid for power. The campaign started with our characters trapped in the vampire's maximum security antimagic dungeon beneath his tower. We broke out of his prison with nearly no equipment, and we were recaputred when we returned to the tower to rescue 2000 prisoners sentanced to death. Upon recapture, we were dumped down a shaft into palusidar, land of the dinosaurs.

Next, the Homebrewed Class. Actually, it is two homebrewed classes gestalted together. Cheif abilities include the abilities to create, at will, swords of force that deal 2d6 damage and have a threat range of 18-20. These swords are also quadruple kinetic burst (d6 force damage each), keen, +5, force blades that can be thrown out to sixty feet with no penalty and can deal strength and constitution damage. He can fly at 120 ft. at all times, create +5 hermetic force full plate that imposes no penalties, dimension door every d4 rounds, has a +5 bonus to AC and all rolls (except attack), can teleport anywhere on the plane twice per day, plane shift once per day, fast healing 2, access to an alternate storage plane (filled with food, water, medical supplies, air, wepons, alchemical items, and assorted mundane gear) and will come back from the dead two hours after death. The next most powerfull character is a Soceror 10/Dragon Diciple 10 with some homebrewed fire abilities allowing him to attack with 8d8 fire damage out to 60 feet.

My monk's special abilities are simply fast healing 3, a climb speed, and the ability to deal one point of ability damage or two points wounding damage per hit. Other than that, he is a Monk 20/Swift druid 1.

The fighter is a plain vanilla dwarven fighter. He is feeling underpowered in part because he has no healing abilities and is extremely slow next to the other characters. We did convince him to return to the game by telling him that he is the only character effective at a range.

AstralFire
2010-06-13, 07:32 AM
The homebrew class is not that powerful for epic.

The rest of your party, mechanically speaking, sucks.

Pull the first player aside and inform him he's playing at another level - a more 'standard' level, but still more than your group can handle - and ask him to tone it down, I'd say.

Sc00by
2010-06-13, 07:36 AM
Nerf the homebrew. That sounds ridiculous compared with the rest of you...

And allow the Figter to respec, perhaps a lockdown fighter build? Or just engineer a way for him to be able to:

a) fly
b) become large or larger
c) gain STR (lots of it)

hmm some kind of divine power effect, ideally permanent. He IS using a reach/trip weapon isn't he?

Dungeon crasher (dungeonscape) varient fighters are fun with Knockback (Races of Stone) and add imp trip and shock trooper (complete warrior IIRC)

I'm playing in a level 19/20 campaign and our defensive sweeping weapon supremecy using Fighter 20 is pretty strong. Though there's only 1 caster and he's a blaster build, which stops him being over powered...

Escheton
2010-06-13, 08:11 AM
The homebrew is taking the best parts of magic and using it at will.
The rest is not. He is Superman, you guys are Aquaman, Putty Thing and Fish Guy

Given that it's a low/no magic champaign...shoot him in the head when resting and roll up a lizardfolk dinoman for him.

Greenish
2010-06-13, 09:15 AM
First, I want to thank the playgroud community for giving me advice. Now, on to more details on the campain.

First, the setting. This is a post apocolyptic world, where an evil vampiric Kull (homebrewed) gestalt Soceror 20/Barbarian 20 rules the world from his giant tower set in a demiplane that intersects with the prime material in a ring of giant mountains. Said vampire squashed nearly all magic users three hundred years ago in his bid for power. The campaign started with our characters trapped in the vampire's maximum security antimagic dungeon beneath his tower. We broke out of his prison with nearly no equipment, and we were recaputred when we returned to the tower to rescue 2000 prisoners sentanced to death. Upon recapture, we were dumped down a shaft into palusidar, land of the dinosaurs.

Next, the Homebrewed Class. Actually, it is two homebrewed classes gestalted together. Cheif abilities include the abilities to create, at will, swords of force that deal 2d6 damage and have a threat range of 18-20. These swords are also quadruple kinetic burst (d6 force damage each), keen, +5, force blades that can be thrown out to sixty feet with no penalty and can deal strength and constitution damage. He can fly at 120 ft. at all times, create +5 hermetic force full plate that imposes no penalties, dimension door every d4 rounds, has a +5 bonus to AC and all rolls (except attack), can teleport anywhere on the plane twice per day, plane shift once per day, fast healing 2, access to an alternate storage plane (filled with food, water, medical supplies, air, wepons, alchemical items, and assorted mundane gear) and will come back from the dead two hours after death. The next most powerfull character is a Soceror 10/Dragon Diciple 10 with some homebrewed fire abilities allowing him to attack with 8d8 fire damage out to 60 feet.

My monk's special abilities are simply fast healing 3, a climb speed, and the ability to deal one point of ability damage or two points wounding damage per hit. Other than that, he is a Monk 20/Swift druid 1.

The fighter is a plain vanilla dwarven fighter. He is feeling underpowered in part because he has no healing abilities and is extremely slow next to the other characters. We did convince him to return to the game by telling him that he is the only character effective at a range.Yeah, as others have pointed out, the homebrew classes aren't intended for your level of optimization. Easiest way to deal with it is rebuild his character to something much weaker.

Anyway, why is he a gestalt when the rest of you aren't?

ShadowsGrnEyes
2010-06-13, 09:32 AM
I agree with everyone that the homebrew doesnt appear to fit with the world. . . especially if he's gestalt and everyone else isn't . . .
your options are to give everyone else a second class and gestalt it with your existing class, or un gestalt him and toss/fix the homebrew.

more importantly: while your player who stormed out might have been somewhat justified in being annoyed, someone ought to talk to him about appropriate behavior. . . Asking for a break and stepping outside for a few minutes to cool off because your pissed and dont want to punch the DM is one thing. Storming out and Interupting everything cause you apparently arent a grown up enought to have a serious discussion with the DM is just childish . . .

Godskook
2010-06-13, 09:34 AM
The homebrew class is not that powerful for epic.

The rest of your party, mechanically speaking, sucks.

Pull the first player aside and inform him he's playing at another level - a more 'standard' level, but still more than your group can handle - and ask him to tone it down, I'd say.
Stupid 10 character limit
+Epic

Hyudra
2010-06-13, 09:40 AM
There's three issues that are intersecting here, which makes things pretty muddled:
You're playing an epic campaign. General consensus is that game balance more or less goes out the window at epic level. You can tone this down with heavy restrictions, but it's easy for something to slip.
You're playing low magic. The game is most fair and balanced with high magic, where there's enough magic items and buffs flying around for the classes with poor mechanics (Monk, fighter) to keep up with those with strong fundamental mechanics (casters, your homebrew fella)
You've got a group with mixed tiers. You've got a fighter (low tier), a monk (low tier), a sorcerer (higher tier) and Mr. Homebrew (High tier). From the time you put your gestalts together, you were setting yourself up for party imbalance.

The homebrew doesn't help matters (It doesn't sound like either class was terribly balanced before they were gestalted), but I'd argue it's not among the top 3 causes of the issues you're facing. I might even suggest that it's #5 on the list, with point #4 being that you're mostly melee characters & it's easy to be eclipsed.

I would suggest talking to the DM, stating how the class setup is preventing everyone from having fun, and how allowing everyone to redo their classes would help matters.

Cogidubnus
2010-06-13, 12:54 PM
The Fighter won't want to rebuild his character from the ground up, so maybe give him a dragon cohort or something? That'd give him flight and access to effectively twice as much damage. Also, for your monk, I recommend this (http://www.realmshelps.org/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Falling_Star_Strike) feat. Nice special ability, works on every attack, you'll likely have all the prereqs.

jiriku
2010-06-13, 01:25 PM
+1 to the dinodragon. Just because, how cool is that?

how much experience does your DM have with running D&D? As others have commented, the game isn't well-built at the level you're playing at, and managing balance at that level is a demanding task. Given the advanced gamplay elements your group is tossing around (epic, gestalt, and homebrew), your DM might find things to be easier and less stressful if you were to dial the power level back a bit, say down to 8th or 9th level. You can kick a lot of butt there, and it's less complicated too.

Mystic Muse
2010-06-13, 01:40 PM
Well, him being gestalt when you guys aren't might have something to do with it.

Another thing is that his homebrew is way more powerful than any of your classes and he seems to be exploiting that fact. The class itself might not be a problem, it's the player using it. Tell him to tone it down or play a different class or something.

Also, since nobody else is gestalt take that away from him. With that class he really doesn't need twenty levels in another one.