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Fidelacchius
2010-06-12, 03:34 PM
I'm playing a Gestalt campaign tomorrow, starting with level 1 (plus one LA for a race), and I need some advice for building a competent Divine/Arcane build. I can use anything except The book of nine swords, or savage species, though anything i use from the settings books need to be pre-approved. I'd also like to be true neutral, since the DM I play with makes it hard to be good, and I like the flexibility of neutral on the Law-Chaos slider.

I need to be the party's main healer so I'm leaning towards Cleric for the divine class, being a worshiper of Bacob for the Magic and Trickery Domains.

For the other I need an armored arcane caster. Leaning towards Warmage, since with a feat I can get to heavy armor by 8th level, and they use charisma, which helps my cleric.

Other possibilities I have considered include Bard (I like everying except no heavy armor, even with feats) and Beguiler.

Where I really need advice is on prestige classes and a race. The DM has ruled that in order to qualify for a prestige class (even 2 at a time) I need to be able to take it using class features I have obtained from the side of my Gestalt character I'm going to take the class on (though feats, base attack, skills, and saves are ok). For instance I could go mystic theurge, but I'd need to take Favored soul and an arcane class on one side (in addition to cleric, for instance, on the other) to qualify.

I'm leaning towards Aasimer for the race since the mental bonuses will help. I know the general opinion of that race by the community, so any suggestion as far as race goes would be good.

Any help or suggestions at all would be good.


Further things for note:
Necromantic magic (including rebuking undead) is banned in the country our characters live in, so I'd like to avoid it, at least until i can wipe the floor with a garrison of guards.

Abilities are generated on a 36 point buy.

So far the other players include a rogue/fighter, and a Knight/fighter, so I'm it as far as spellcasting goes.

We're also using the weapon group feats and the ability to take flaws from UA.

PId6
2010-06-12, 03:39 PM
Archivist//Wizard

You'll have Int synergy, a very good spell pool, and lots of great options.

Also, avoid Aasimar, since LA really hurts unless it's applied only to one side of a gestalt. Lesser Aasimar (FRCS) is much better if you really want to play one, since it is exactly the same but Humanoid rather than Outsider and has no LA.

Greenish
2010-06-12, 03:41 PM
How about Wizard//Archivist? Int SAD, good group buffing abilities, (potentially) just about every spell in the game.

On the other hand, I suggest a Beguiler//Bard. It's a lot weaker, and MAD to boot. You should really consider playing that.

Fidelacchius
2010-06-12, 03:42 PM
Archivist//Wizard

You'll have Int synergy, a very good spell pool, and lots of great options.

Also, avoid Aasimar, since LA really hurts unless it's applied only to one side of a gestalt. Lesser Aasimar (FRCS) is much better if you really want to play one, since it is exactly the same but Humanoid rather than Outsider and has no LA.

Thanks, but I get a free LA +1, and don't get anything for not taking it. So I really need a good LA race.

I'll take a look at Archivist Wizard though.

Update: I don't have Heroes of Horror, and i don't think the DM does either... I think archivist is out.

Mr.Moron
2010-06-12, 03:48 PM
Competent Gestalt caster build with a 36 point buy?

Anything/Anything.

You can afford 16s in two casting stats, or even an 18 and 16. You really don't have to worry about being competent. With two full casters you'll pretty much have to try to be ineffective.Given the class combos you've listed for the rest of the group, trying to optimize a twin caster is going to be overkill anyway.

Greenish
2010-06-12, 03:50 PM
Update: I don't have Heroes of Horror, and i don't think the DM does either... I think archivist is out.Oh lookie, what have we here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20051007a&page=3)?

Fidelacchius
2010-06-12, 03:51 PM
Competent Gestalt caster build with a 36 point buy?

Anything/Anything.

You can afford 16s in two casting stats, or even an 18 and 16. You really don't have to worry about being competent. With two full casters you'll pretty much have to try to be ineffective.

Yeah but this DMs personal goal in every game I play with him is to kill me as often as possible. I don't mind most of the time, it's fun trying to thwart him.

Fidelacchius
2010-06-12, 03:52 PM
Oh lookie, what have we here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20051007a&page=3)?

You sir, are my hero.

Mr.Moron
2010-06-12, 03:54 PM
Yeah but this DMs personal goal in every game I play with him is to kill me as often as possible. I don't mind most of the time, it's fun trying to thwart him.

Seeing as how the DM can throw anything they want at you, up to and including Pee-wee Herman, if they want you dead no amount of charop is going to stop them.

PId6
2010-06-12, 03:54 PM
Thanks, but I get a free LA +1, and don't get anything for not taking it. So I really need a good LA race.

I'll take a look at Archivist Wizard though.
Well, if LA +1 is free, are templates allowed? The Draconic template (RotD) gives +2 Str/Con/Cha and a few nice bonuses for LA +1. Apply it to Lesser Tiefling (FRCS) for +2 Str/Dex/Con/Int without penalties.


Seeing as how the DM can throw anything they want at you, up to and including Pee-wee Herman, if they want you dead no amount of charop is going to stop them.
If he's sticking to "official" creatures, I beg to differ.

Pluto
2010-06-12, 03:55 PM
Update: I don't have Heroes of Horror, and i don't think the DM does either... I think archivist is out.
You could print out the Heroes of Horror excerpt (which includes the Archivist here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20051007a&page=3)), if you were so inclined.

Otherwise, I'd lean toward Cleric//Sorcerer. Use the Luminous Armor spells from the BoED to avoid ASF, grab Divine Spell Power (or DMM or any of the other ways to use Charisma to improve cleric casting, if you can stomach them), prioritize Charisma and Wisdom and run with it from there.

GoodbyeSoberDay
2010-06-12, 03:57 PM
If you weren't starting at level 1 I'd suggest Wizard//Factotum with UMD'd scrolls and wands to heal, but that's not exactly feasible with starting wealth.

Wizard//Druid requires two key stats instead of one, but it's still a lot better than a lot of non-gestalt classes. If you go this route make sure to take natural spell at level 6. I'd also preference Int > Wis and take Save or Xs mostly on the wizard side. The Druid has a lot of good no-save or buff effects anyway.

Wizard//Cleric is definitely your most straightforward healer, though CHA suddenly becomes something you don't really want to dump. I'd suggest against going c-zilla here and instead grab DMM Quicken spell so you can cheaply throw out as many spell effects as possible in combat. You'll be swimming in spells, anyway. Speaking of which, go Focused Specialist Conjurer or Transmuter on the wizard side and dump Enchantment/Evocation/Abjuration. Normally one would never dump Abjuration, but you're getting most of the early goodies from your deity anyway.

Sorcerer//Cleric ... seems to have been covered.

Greenish
2010-06-12, 03:58 PM
Well, if LA +1 is free, are templates allowed? The Draconic template (RotD) gives +2 Str/Con/Cha and a few nice bonuses for LA +1. Apply it to Lesser Tiefling (FRCS) for +2 Str/Dex/Con/Int without penalties.Well, Outsider type is pretty nice, especially if you DM is trying to kill you.

Of course, if the polymorph chain of spells is banned, it won't be so great.

[Edit]:
Wizard//Druid requires two key stats instead of one, but it's still a lot better than a lot of non-gestalt classes.Either of those two alone is better than most non-gestalt classes. Probably better than most possible gestalt combinations.

Fidelacchius
2010-06-12, 04:02 PM
Seeing as how the DM can throw anything they want at you, up to and including Pee-wee Herman, if they want you dead no amount of charop is going to stop them.

Well, he's gentlemanly about it, so I generally don't have to worry about cthulhu himself or anything. It's just for some reason, every monster we encounter likes to go for me.

PId6
2010-06-12, 04:02 PM
Oh, if your DM is trying to kill you, make sure you take the Abrupt Jaunt wizard ACF from PHB2, trading familiar away. That's basically a "get out of jail free" card Int times per day.

GoodbyeSoberDay
2010-06-12, 04:11 PM
Either of those two alone is better than most non-gestalt classes. Probably better than most possible gestalt combinations.What I meant to say was the MAD isn't as harsh.

Da Beast
2010-06-12, 04:12 PM
Your taking a full caster on both sides of Gestalt and the warrior types aren't allowed any Tome of Battle? Poor fighters...

As has already been mentioned, Wizard//archivist is probably your strongest option. For something slightly more tame, consider Warmage/Rainbow Servant//Ranger/Warmage, with whatever combination of levels gives you caster level 20. Eventually you'll be able to cast all cleric spells as warmage spells and at lower levels the fighters will feel like the actually contribute something. Also, three good saves, D8 HD, 6 skill points per level, and casting in armor. The downside is that until level 15 or so the only healing you'll have is what you can get from wands and your limited ranger spell casting.

PId6
2010-06-12, 04:15 PM
Rainbow Servant totally has full casting. :smallcool:

Da Beast
2010-06-12, 04:16 PM
I thought it missed out on a few levels, no? That's what I get for being away from my books :smallmad:.

PId6
2010-06-12, 04:22 PM
I thought it missed out on a few levels, no? That's what I get for being away from my books :smallmad:.
The table's missing a few levels, but the text says it has full casting. Text trumps table! :smallwink:

Lunawarrior0
2010-06-12, 04:24 PM
A fun thought that I have always had was Sorcerer//Divine Soul. Both of these are charisma based.

Greenish
2010-06-12, 04:25 PM
A fun thought that I have always had was Sorcerer//Divine Soul. Both of these are charisma based.Divine Soul is MAD all alone.

PId6
2010-06-12, 04:27 PM
Divine soul? :smallconfused:

Zovc
2010-06-12, 04:29 PM
Thanks, but I get a free LA +1, and don't get anything for not taking it. So I really need a good LA race.

The fact of the matter is that you can Essentially be an Aasimar or a Tiefling with a +0 LA by being a Lesser one of either of those (This also works with any other +1 LA planetouched race). On top of that you can put a +1 LA template. Why take less than you can have? :3

If you're going to be a Wizard//Archivist, you probably want to be a race that gives you +intelligence, having a template that also gives you that wouldn't hurt, either.

Kylarra
2010-06-12, 04:30 PM
Favored Soul probably.

Pluto
2010-06-12, 04:32 PM
I thought it missed out on a few levels, no? That's what I get for being away from my books :smallmad:.
Most of the Complete Divine PrC's with irregular patterns of spellcasting advancement printed on their class tables (Rainbow Servant, Sacred Fist, Seeker of the Misty Isle) have text blurbs that say that at every new level, their casting advances by a level.

They're probably copy/paste errors, but the "Text trumps Table" guideline says that RAW, they're full casters. Take that however you want.

Greenish
2010-06-12, 04:33 PM
Why take less than you can have? :3Because he's already planning on being fullcaster//fullcaster gestalt in the game with fighter//rogue and knight//rogue.

Favored Soul probably.Yeah. :smallredface:

Fidelacchius
2010-06-12, 04:43 PM
Well, if LA +1 is free, are templates allowed? The Draconic template (RotD) gives +2 Str/Con/Cha and a few nice bonuses for LA +1. Apply it to Lesser Tiefling (FRCS) for +2 Str/Dex/Con/Int without penalties.


If he's sticking to "official" creatures, I beg to differ.

Lesser planetouched is out. DM won't allow it.

PId6
2010-06-12, 04:45 PM
Lesser planetouched is out. DM won't allow it.
Then just regular Tiefling works fine. Better, if your DM allows Alter Self/Polymorph.

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-06-12, 04:56 PM
For race, I recommend going Primordial Draconic Phrenic Incarnate Construct'd Warforged. Odds are, this will be shot down, but, hey, you never know :smalltongue:. In that case, Draconic Lesser Tiefling is probably a close second.

Assuming Draconic Lesser Tiefling, you've got +2 Str +2 Dex +2 Con +2 Int and the dragonblood subtype, which could get you Practical Metamagic via some means of spontaneous casting. Uncanny Forethought or it's weaker variant in Complete Mage should cover that. On the off chance that Primordial actually works, you get -2 Str +0 Dex +2 Con +6 Int +0 Wis +8 Cha. Sadly, Cha would be your dump stat as an archivist//wizard, but it does open the possibility to go Wilder//Sorcerer.

Assuming you stick to archivist//wizard (which I'd recommend, due to the terribly low amount of spells known for both wilders and sorcerers), I'd go with the following for your 36 PB: 18 in Int and probably 16s in both Dex and Con, all pre-racial modifications. You could finagle things around to get some Wisdom, but that only nets you more archivist spells, which, while nice, are a little unnecessary due to option of going Focused Specialist Conjuration Wizard, dumping Evocation, Enchantment, and Necromancy. That and the bonus spells for wizard based off Int, natch.

I'd focus on buffing everyone else to high heaven as your primary schtick, just so the other players don't feel left out. Secondary focus would probably be battlefield control, but that meshes nicely with the buffing and can kind of blur after a while. Meh. I'd recommend getting Quicken Spell and Divine Metamagic. This way, you open combats with both an archivist spell and a wizard spell at full force. Wizard spell could cover the foes in Solid Fog while the archivist spell bumps strength for the BSFs. If you have access to Heroes of Battle, go War Weaver and giggle as everyone suddenly gets four buffs spells as a move action on the first round of combat, too.

Fidelacchius
2010-06-12, 04:57 PM
Your taking a full caster on both sides of Gestalt and the warrior types aren't allowed any Tome of Battle? Poor fighters...

As has already been mentioned, Wizard//archivist is probably your strongest option. For something slightly more tame, consider Warmage/Rainbow Servant//Ranger/Warmage, with whatever combination of levels gives you caster level 20. Eventually you'll be able to cast all cleric spells as warmage spells and at lower levels the fighters will feel like the actually contribute something. Also, three good saves, D8 HD, 6 skill points per level, and casting in armor. The downside is that until level 15 or so the only healing you'll have is what you can get from wands and your limited ranger spell casting.

That's too big of a downside. I can't get any wands at first level.

Fidelacchius
2010-06-12, 04:59 PM
If you weren't starting at level 1 I'd suggest Wizard//Factotum with UMD'd scrolls and wands to heal, but that's not exactly feasible with starting wealth.

Wizard//Druid requires two key stats instead of one, but it's still a lot better than a lot of non-gestalt classes. If you go this route make sure to take natural spell at level 6. I'd also preference Int > Wis and take Save or Xs mostly on the wizard side. The Druid has a lot of good no-save or buff effects anyway.

Wizard//Cleric is definitely your most straightforward healer, though CHA suddenly becomes something you don't really want to dump. I'd suggest against going c-zilla here and instead grab DMM Quicken spell so you can cheaply throw out as many spell effects as possible in combat. You'll be swimming in spells, anyway. Speaking of which, go Focused Specialist Conjurer or Transmuter on the wizard side and dump Enchantment/Evocation/Abjuration. Normally one would never dump Abjuration, but you're getting most of the early goodies from your deity anyway.

Sorcerer//Cleric ... seems to have been covered.

I'd prefer the ability to wear armor, and I forgot to mention sanctified spells are disallowed as well.

Zovc
2010-06-12, 05:01 PM
Because he's already planning on being fullcaster//fullcaster gestalt in the game with fighter//rogue and knight//rogue.
Yeah. :smallredface:

I'm not that educated on the class, but doesn't doing ANYTHING a Rogue does violate a Knight's code?

Well, OP can always be a Lesser Aasimar with a template and be a Sorcerer//Favored Soul. The fact that Favored Soul insists on using wisdom for saves doesn't matter if its spell slots are being used mostly for healing. Warmage may or may not play more nicely with Favored Soul, but at least you can put some armor on (I think).

I think you should convince DM to let your beatstick friends be a Warblade//Rogue and a Crusader//Rogue. Essentially, if you play your classes well, your friends will feel a lot less useless if they can USE a lot more useful classes.

If ToB is approved, Warblade//Factotum is probably better than Warblade//Rogue, and Crusader can be good with a lot of things, but Rogue might make things redundant with the other character.

TL;DR: Sorcerer or Warmage // Favored Soul is also viable if you don't want to be too uber. (I still recommend Lesser Aasimar + Tempalte as opposed to just Aasimar.) Also get the DM to let your friends actually use good classes.

Fidelacchius
2010-06-12, 05:09 PM
I'm not that educated on the class, but doesn't doing ANYTHING a Rogue does violate a Knight's code?

Well, OP can always be a Lesser Aasimar with a template and be a Sorcerer//Favored Soul. The fact that Favored Soul insists on using wisdom for saves doesn't matter if its spell slots are being used mostly for healing. Warmage may or may not play more nicely with Favored Soul, but at least you can put some armor on (I think).

I think you should convince DM to let your beatstick friends be a Warblade//Rogue and a Crusader//Rogue. Essentially, if you play your classes well, your friends will feel a lot less useless if they can USE a lot more useful classes.

If ToB is approved, Warblade//Factotum is probably better than Warblade//Rogue, and Crusader can be good with a lot of things, but Rogue might make things redundant with the other character.

TL;DR: Sorcerer or Warmage // Favored Soul is also viable if you don't want to be too uber. (I still recommend Lesser Aasimar + Tempalte as opposed to just Aasimar.) Also get the DM to let your friends actually use good classes.

It would, but there are two different people. One is a rouge//fighter, the other is a Knight//Fighter, no one is taking any combination of rouge and knight. ToB is not allowed and he's not budging, he considers it to be among the most OP things in the game. And Lesser Planetouched is not allowed.

Also this game is likely to end before we got to level 10, most of his games do.

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-06-12, 05:16 PM
It would, but there are two different people. One is a rouge//fighter, the other is a Knight//Fighter, no one is taking any combination of rouge and knight. ToB is not allowed and he's not budging, he considers it to be among the most OP things in the game. And Lesser Planetouched is not allowed.

Not to derail the thread, but there have been numerous posts on this very forum with evidence against such. Naturally, of course, you should prove that there is at least something more overpowered than it by playing an archivist//wizard. :smalltongue:


Also this game is likely to end before we got to level 10, most of his games do.

For class levels, I'd go Wizard 3/Master Specialist X/whatever else advances wizard casting via PrCs Y//Archivist Z/Sacred Exorcist 1

GoodbyeSoberDay
2010-06-12, 05:21 PM
I'd prefer the ability to wear armor, and I forgot to mention sanctified spells are disallowed as well.You want to be an arcanist//X who wears armor at level 1?

.. I guess your best bet is Beguiler//Cleric then. If you're willing to wait for greater mage armor, or Githcraft Thistledown Chain Shirt, you'll be better off in the long run.

Zovc
2010-06-12, 05:33 PM
It would, but there are two different people. One is a rouge//fighter, the other is a Knight//Fighter, no one is taking any combination of rouge and knight. ToB is not allowed and he's not budging, he considers it to be among the most OP things in the game. And Lesser Planetouched is not allowed.

Also this game is likely to end before we got to level 10, most of his games do.

Sorry, I glanced at another user's post and saw Knight//Rogue, I may also have just been seeing things.

Well, your teammates are pretty much screwed. Suggestions for them include Sorcerer//Paladin, check out the Battle Sorcerer in Unearthed Arcana (and/or maybe even Stalwart Sorcerer, I forget where), it'll probably make the combination more viable at level 1 (that is, give you some armor). For the Fighter//Rogue--I'm not really sure what to suggest to them. Take note of the Feat Rogue and Sneak Attack Fighter variants. Oh! there's the Duskblade, who's pretty cool. I'll plug the Factotum again, since its one of my favorite classes.

Favored Soul//Sorcerer is significantly weaker than Archivist//Wizard, but is probably easier to play, and still incredibly powerful given the right spell choices. Again, Warmage is a viable (but weaker) alternative to Sorcerer for you--it'll let you wear some armor.

Fidelacchius
2010-06-12, 05:43 PM
You want to be an arcanist//X who wears armor at level 1?

.. I guess your best bet is Beguiler//Cleric then. If you're willing to wait for greater mage armor, or Githcraft Thistledown Chain Shirt, you'll be better off in the long run.

Mithril Chain shirt with no spell failure chance with only a -1 AC penalty and +1 on concentration checks for 1,950? Brilliant!

That makes Archivist//Wizard much more palatable.

Fouredged Sword
2010-06-12, 05:44 PM
One odd combination that I thought up would be to go Sorcerer 1 / Spellthief 1
Then take 4 levels of Sorcerer / Bard
Slip Versitle Spellcaster and Master Spellthief in there somewhere.
Now you go Sorcerer the rest of the way and follow the bard side with the warweaver PrC, you meet the prereqs with bard due to Versitile Sellcaster. Now all harmless arcane spells can be cast to effect everyone in your party with a single casting. This includes Bard healing spells!

That one level of spellthief does two things that break this build. First you can cast all arcane in light armor. Nice. Second is the doosy though. All caster levels stack for arcane casting classes. You loose one level of bard casting in there to warweaver, but you end up at twenty with CL-39. Pick up dispell magic and counter and supress every other mage in the game. The durations on your buffs will be endless.

Oh, and you can steal spells. And have 1d6 sneak attack.

PId6
2010-06-12, 05:52 PM
I'd prefer the ability to wear armor, and I forgot to mention sanctified spells are disallowed as well.
Just use Mage Armor/Greater Mage Armor; it lasts hours/level and beats pretty much any actual armor you can find.

Fidelacchius
2010-06-12, 06:09 PM
OK, Building a Tiefling Archivist//Wizard with the following Ability Scores:

Str: 8
Dex: 14
Con: 16
Int: 20
Wis: 10
Cha: 8

Variants:
Focused Specialist
Rapid Summoning
Enhanced Summoning

Skills (4 ranks all):
Appraise (cross class)
Concentarion
Decipher Script
Knowledge (arcana)
Knowledge (Religon)
Knowledge (The planes)
Knowledge (Dungoneering)
Search
Spellcraft

Flaws:
Non-Combatant
Inattentive

Feats:
Spontaneous healer
Spell focus (conjuration)
Spell Penetration
Augment summoning (Class Feature)
Scribe scroll (Class Feature)
Weapon Group (Basic, Bows, Light Blades)
Armor Proficiency (Medium)


(thinking of picking up spontaneous summoner, and Summon elemental latter)

Spells Known:

Archivist:
Cure Light Wounds
Shield of Faith
Bless
Foundation of Stone
Light of lunia
Doom
Command

Wizard:
Alarm
Shield
Mage Armor
Summon Monster 1
True Strike
Expeditious retreat
Disguise Self
Enlarge Person

Specialist conjuration, giving up Enchantment, and Necromancy

Special Abilities
Darkvison 60 ft
Darkness 1/day
Abrupt Jaunt
Dark Knowledge 3/day


Gear:
Longbow, Arrows 20, Dagger, Rapier, Spell component pouch, Spell book, Prayer book, backpack, Holy Symbol.

The first few levels are taking place inside a city, and I'm a noble working under a Lord's Vassal, so I shouldn't need to much else on short notice. Besides, I can only carry 7 more pounds before it's a medium load.


Will update this as I build, let me know if I make any grievous mistakes.

Zovc
2010-06-12, 06:15 PM
OK, Building a Tiefling Archivist//Wizard with the following Ability Scores:

Str: 8
Dex: 14
Con: 12
Int: 18
Wis: 18
Cha: 8

(Yes, he's weak and no one likes him.)

Why is that second 18 in Wisdom? O.o

Milskidasith
2010-06-12, 06:28 PM
Why higher dex than constitution? It's much better to have better fort saves and HP than a point of AC and a point in reflex saves. A much better choice would be 18 int, 16 wis, 16 con, 14 dex.

Fidelacchius
2010-06-12, 06:30 PM
Why is that second 18 in Wisdom? O.o

Because I'm a moron and didn't read that the archivist uses int... Fixed

PId6
2010-06-12, 06:54 PM
Pick any two of these:

Noncombatant (because you are)
Vulnerable (-1 AC almost never matters)
Inattentive (you don't have Spot/Listen anyway)

Fidelacchius
2010-06-12, 07:00 PM
Pick any two of these:

Noncombatant (because you are)
Vulnerable (-1 AC almost never matters)
Inattentive (you don't have Spot/Listen anyway)

Done, good sir.

Milskidasith
2010-06-12, 07:03 PM
As for traits: Pick Aggressive. +2 init for -1 AC is quite possibly the only good tradeoff in the entire list of traits.

Fidelacchius
2010-06-12, 07:13 PM
As for traits: Pick Aggressive. +2 init for -1 AC is quite possibly the only good tradeoff in the entire list of traits.

Aggressive non combatant? I don't know how to roleplay that...

PId6
2010-06-12, 07:17 PM
Also Absent Minded, since you're dumping Spot/Listen anyway.


Aggressive non combatant? I don't know how to roleplay that...
Hot-headed and like to rush into things, though reluctant to get into melee brawls?

Dusk Eclipse
2010-06-12, 07:19 PM
Aggressive non combatant? I don't know how to roleplay that...

Easy, be verbally agressive, you can't wait to belittle your enemies before laying some spells on them

Rin_Hunter
2010-06-12, 08:06 PM
It may be too late to post this and I haven't read all the replies, but have your DM look at my Armoured Caster feats in my Variant Systems thread. They require only armour proficiency and allow casters to cast in armour. This may help if you are wanting to be Cleric/Bard or something similar.

EDIT: Under my rules the standard Cleric gains those feats anyway. Shame I edited away the armour proficiencies :smalltongue:

Drekk
2010-06-12, 08:17 PM
Likewise, looks like I entered the conversation a bit late..But I would shoot for a Druid//Sorcerer/Geomancer from Complete Divine. Geomancer lets you swap around your casting limitations; letting you use, say, Wisdom for all of your spellcasting, arcane or divine, and lets you cast any spells in armor. you get some flavorful buffs and some genuinely useful ones (Ley lines). And its super-easy to qualify for the class in Gestalt.

PId6
2010-06-12, 08:24 PM
Likewise, looks like I entered the conversation a bit late..But I would shoot for a Druid//Sorcerer/Geomancer from Complete Divine. Geomancer lets you swap around your casting limitations; letting you use, say, Wisdom for all of your spellcasting, arcane or divine, and lets you cast any spells in armor. you get some flavorful buffs and some genuinely useful ones (Ley lines). And its super-easy to qualify for the class in Gestalt.
Unfortunately not:

The DM has ruled that in order to qualify for a prestige class (even 2 at a time) I need to be able to take it using class features I have obtained from the side of my Gestalt character I'm going to take the class on (though feats, base attack, skills, and saves are ok). For instance I could go mystic theurge, but I'd need to take Favored soul and an arcane class on one side (in addition to cleric, for instance, on the other) to qualify.

Drekk
2010-06-12, 08:50 PM
Ah...Smart DM, I suppose :smallbiggrin:

Jack_Simth
2010-06-12, 08:56 PM
Let's see...

Bard-10/Sublime Chord-10//Cloistered Cleric-20?

9th level Arcane (starting at ECL 19), 9th level Divine (starting at ECL 17), casting in light armor (medium with a feat - Mithral Fullplate counts as medium armor, by the way), 6 skill points/level. Okay, so you've got split casting... big deal, you've got the point buy to pull it off. Pick one side for your Save Or effects, and the other for party buffs (which doesn't require a high primary casting score).

Fidelacchius
2010-06-13, 03:19 AM
So I'm looking at ELC 13, Wizard 3/Master Specialist 3/Rainbow Servant 4/Master Specialist 7, and that's as far as I've gotten.

For the Divine side: Archivist 10/Divine oracle 10. At 10 the archivist gets a bonus feat that will help me qualify for oracle.

Any alternate suggestions?

PId6
2010-06-13, 03:29 AM
Rainbow Servant is not very good for wizard. It does let you scribe cleric spells into your spellbook, but that costs a lot of money. You have far better options as far as PrCs go.

I'd go with something like:

Focused Conjurer 3/Master Specialist 2/Malconvoker 5/Master Specialist +8/Archmage 2//Archivist 10/Church Inquisitor 1/Sacred Exorcist 1/Divine Oracle 2/Contemplative 6

Malconvoker does some sweet things with Summon Monster, while Archivist lets you use Summon Nature's Ally at low levels. You get the best control spells that Conjuration has to offer in addition to the summons. Take the Rapid Summoning and Enhanced Summoning variants here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm#conjurerVariants), though unfortunately that means you won't get Abrupt Jaunt (Rapid Summoning is worth it though).

Ban Abjuration, Evocation, and Enchantment. Archivist has Abjuration covered for you, while the other two are typical dump schools. Archivist will also end up with four bonus domains and some sweet abilities on its side as well (Turn Undead, Prescient Sense, some defensive abilities).

Wings of Peace
2010-06-13, 03:50 AM
How powerful do you want to be and what books are you working with?

Fidelacchius
2010-06-13, 08:10 AM
Rainbow Servant is not very good for wizard. It does let you scribe cleric spells into your spellbook, but that costs a lot of money. You have far better options as far as PrCs go.

I'd go with something like:

Focused Conjurer 3/Master Specialist 2/Malconvoker 5/Master Specialist +8/Archmage 2//Archivist 10/Church Inquisitor 1/Sacred Exorcist 1/Divine Oracle 2/Contemplative 6

Malconvoker does some sweet things with Summon Monster, while Archivist lets you use Summon Nature's Ally at low levels. You get the best control spells that Conjuration has to offer in addition to the summons. Take the Rapid Summoning and Enhanced Summoning variants here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm#conjurerVariants), though unfortunately that means you won't get Abrupt Jaunt (Rapid Summoning is worth it though).

I REALLY don't like that Malconvoker loses a level of casting at first. Is it really worth it? Second, Church Inquisitor and Sacred Exorcist are out because I'm trying to be true neutral, and one would require Lawful, and the other Good.


Ban Abjuration, Evocation, and Enchantment. Archivist has Abjuration covered for you, while the other two are typical dump schools. Archivist will also end up with four bonus domains and some sweet abilities on its side as well (Turn Undead, Prescient Sense, some defensive abilities).

Why do i need to give up three schools? I thought I only need to give up 2.

Edit: Never mind, you think I should that the Focused Wizard variant then? But if I give up abjuration, I won't be able to prepare explosive runes! Seriously though, I'd rather not give up abjuration since that would remove Mage Armor from my list and I NEED that at first level if I'm going to live long enough to get my super chain shirt. Giving up Necro instead, since that is a banned school in the setting anyway.



How powerful do you want to be and what books are you working with?

About as powerful as you can make it, but staying power is a consideration as well, and I need to be a little bit more defensive minded than normal because the DM is trying to kill me a little bit more than the other players. For the books, ToB and Savage species are banned and anything from a setting book must be approved (most things aren't). Also I can get approval for class variants from UA fairly easily, I can take flaws, and we're using the Weapon Group variant, Anything else from UA is no go.

Greenish
2010-06-13, 09:52 AM
I'm not that educated on the class, but doesn't doing ANYTHING a Rogue does violate a Knight's code?Actually, Knight's Code only has a few rather specific bans: you can't attack flat-footed opponents, you don't gain +2 when flanking and you can't deal lethal damage to a helpless opponent. You could still Sneak Attack while flanking, for example.

Sorry, I glanced at another user's post and saw Knight//Rogue, I may also have just been seeing things.I could've sworn they were both rogues… Oh well.

Pluto
2010-06-13, 12:30 PM
Because I'm a moron and didn't read that the archivist uses int... Fixed

You went too far with that fix. Archivists still rely on Wisdom to determine the maximum level of spell they can cast.
[/nitpick]

Fidelacchius
2010-06-13, 01:12 PM
You went too far with that fix. Archivists still rely on Wisdom to determine the maximum level of spell they can cast.
[/nitpick]

Nope, only for bonus spells. Int is the stat they use for DCs and determining if they can cast them.

PId6
2010-06-13, 03:51 PM
I REALLY don't like that Malconvoker loses a level of casting at first. Is it really worth it? Second, Church Inquisitor and Sacred Exorcist are out because I'm trying to be true neutral, and one would require Lawful, and the other Good.
Malconvoker is one of the few PrCs that's worth losing casting for. It provides +5 worth of metamagic for free on your Summon Monster spells (Extend + Twin), as well as other goodies. See Mastering the Malconvoker (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=289.0) for more. If you believe in wizard casting more than archivist, you can take a level of wizard or advance wizard casting somehow on the other side of the gestalt at the first Malconvoker level. And if you can qualify somehow, you can take Mystic Theurge on the other side of the gestalt and not lose any casting (Divine Magician ACF from CM would work, but that's for cleric; Alternate Spell Source might work as well). But overall, that one level shouldn't matter too much when you've archivist casting as well.

If those PrCs aren't usable, then just go Divine Oracle 2/Contemplative 6/X 2, where the X can be whatever you want (more Divine Oracle, more Contemplative, more archivist, etc).


Edit: Never mind, you think I should that the Focused Wizard variant then? But if I give up abjuration, I won't be able to prepare explosive runes! Seriously though, I'd rather not give up abjuration since that would remove Mage Armor from my list and I NEED that at first level if I'm going to live long enough to get my super chain shirt. Giving up Necro instead, since that is a banned school in the setting anyway.
Mage Armor is conjuration. :smalltongue:

Since necromancy is banned, yeah, you might as well give it up. I'd keep Enchantment over Abjuration, since it has some useful abilities and Abjuration is nicely covered by Archivist, but that's up to you.

Fidelacchius
2010-06-14, 01:53 AM
Mage Armor is conjuration. :smalltongue:

Sorry, meant Shield.


Also just wanted to let you know how it went: my friend, the Hunter from wow (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8692242), wasn't able to make it, but another friend showed up, and played a Draconic Changling Swashbuckler//Rogue. So between the three of us we took out 8 hobgoblins that had at least 3 HD each. I know because the DM only rolled one (failed) save VS my sleep spell. I only almost died once (even with mage armor, shield of faith, and shield up). Unfortunately I wasn't too much help to the party other than absorbing attacks, and that first sleep, too busy casting CLW and buffing myself.

Yeah I know, another Mellee class. What can i say? They all think playing a caster is too complicated.

Thanks for your help everyone.

Cogidubnus
2010-06-14, 05:05 AM
Me? I'd be Favoured Soul//Sorcerer with that feat that allows you to use just CHA for your favoured soul casting. Anybody remember its name?

Fidelacchius
2010-06-14, 01:40 PM
Me? I'd be Favoured Soul//Sorcerer with that feat that allows you to use just CHA for your favoured soul casting. Anybody remember its name?

I considered building a Charisma based caster using the Shujenja (rather than favored soul, so I didn't have to invest in wisdom) and Warmage, and that would be fun, but I was the only caster so I needed more long term flexibility. If I had at least one other caster in the group I'd consider it.

Thurbane
2010-06-14, 09:41 PM
Sorcerer/Anima Mage//Binder - full spontaneous casting, full Binding, and probably enough levels left over to take a Sorc PrC like Fiend Blooded.


Me? I'd be Favoured Soul//Sorcerer with that feat that allows you to use just CHA for your favoured soul casting. Anybody remember its name?
The one from Bastards and Bloodlines?

Wings of Peace
2010-06-15, 05:52 AM
If you want staying power you are for certain going to want to take 2 levels in Primal Scholar at some point. At level 2 take Secret of Power which will let you sacrifice an action point to refill a scaling number of spellslots. Primal Scholar is from Secrets of Xen'Drik. Combo this with the spell Unfettered Heroism from Races of Eberron. Unfettered Heroism can be persisted and grants an action point every round so... yeah.

Other ideas:

-Take Spelldancer. It's from one of the Faerun books I forget which. But it lets you take a con penalty to negate spell level adjustment from metamagic. Takes some time so it's not practical in combat but for persisting all of your buffs it is absolutely brilliant.

-Worship Mystra. This lets you take the Initiate of Mystra feat, which is also a Faerun feat. It lets you cast in anti-magic zones including one you put around yourself to stay safe from enemy magic. Just remember while it will make your magic work in the field your items are another story.

-There is a rule that classes sharing the clerics list can take cleric feats, the example given is favored soul. If you can convince your DM to allow it take Archivist for your divine side so long as your DM says it qualifies you for Initiate of Mystra. Otherwise there is a feat from Draglonlance called Academic Priest which makes your casting stat Int but your Wis still determines DCs. Since Divine Magic is fairly buff heavy this won't matter so much.

-Achieve spontaneous casting through Magical Training (Sorcerer) and Versatile Spellcaster which you are qualifying for through Magical Training. Goes perfectly with the Primal Scholar/Unfettered Heroism trick.

-This:
Not to derail the thread, but there have been numerous posts on this very forum with evidence against such. Naturally, of course, you should prove that there is at least something more overpowered than it by playing an archivist//wizard. :smalltongue:

Fidelacchius
2010-06-15, 02:56 PM
Malconvoker is one of the few PrCs that's worth losing casting for. It provides +5 worth of metamagic for free on your Summon Monster spells (Extend + Twin), as well as other goodies. See Mastering the Malconvoker (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=289.0) for more. If you believe in wizard casting more than archivist, you can take a level of wizard or advance wizard casting somehow on the other side of the gestalt at the first Malconvoker level. And if you can qualify somehow, you can take Mystic Theurge on the other side of the gestalt and not lose any casting (Divine Magician ACF from CM would work, but that's for cleric; Alternate Spell Source might work as well). But overall, that one level shouldn't matter too much when you've archivist casting as well.


Read it, awesome. But I'm thinking about finishing off MS before I go into Malconvoker, just so I can cast many of my divine spells faster too (including cure spells).

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-06-15, 03:12 PM
Usually, if you're casting cure spells in combat, you're doing it wrong. I would recommend grabbing Malconvoker ASAP. The 5th level bonus is just too good to ignore.

Fidelacchius
2010-06-15, 05:19 PM
Usually, if you're casting cure spells in combat, you're doing it wrong. I would recommend grabbing Malconvoker ASAP. The 5th level bonus is just too good to ignore.

So how do I stop my party from dieing when they take damage? Can you direct me towards a post that discusses this?

PId6
2010-06-15, 05:21 PM
So how do I stop my party from dieing when they take damage? Can you direct me towards a post that discusses this?
Usually, in D&D, killing things before they deal damage is far more efficient than healing.

This (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871786/A_Players_Guide_to_Healing_And_why_you_will_be_Jus t_Fine_without_a_Cleric_to_heal) is a good handbook for explaining how healing should and should not be used.