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View Full Version : Wait? Big T is NOT immune to mind-effecting stuff? [3.5]



deuxhero
2010-06-12, 11:24 PM
I just noticed that. Seriously, I knew it was pathetic (toughness, nuff said) but I never realized it was that bad. It even has a pathetic will save, it's as though you were meant to use dominate monster on it.

It also seems to lack Polymorph immunity, though they target the good saves.

Jack_Simth
2010-06-12, 11:37 PM
I just noticed that. Seriously, I knew it was pathetic (toughness, nuff said) but I never realized it was that bad. It even has a pathetic will save, it's as though you were meant to use dominate monster on it.

It also seems to lack Polymorph immunity, though they target the good saves.Yes, a Wiz-17 with a high Int score can keep Mr. T Dominated for a long, long time. Just hope Mr. T doesn't have a lucky streak at some point. He's not invulnerable.

Anxe
2010-06-12, 11:46 PM
Spell Resistance gets in the way for it too.

GoodbyeSoberDay
2010-06-12, 11:49 PM
Big T's problem is a lack of reliable options on offense, to the point where a Wiz-17 often has much better things to dominate.

chiasaur11
2010-06-12, 11:51 PM
Yeah. It's kinda sad, really.

Got a kind of tragic poetry about it.

Runestar
2010-06-12, 11:55 PM
That's why PHB2 printed steadfast determination.

What?!? You didn't notice how it seems to benefit monsters more than players? :smallbiggrin:

Even if you don't dominate it, a heightened slow reduces it to 1 pathetic bite attack each round. Return to filing your nails while the fighters beat it into submission.

Alternatively, slap on the monster of legend template.

Marriclay
2010-06-12, 11:59 PM
Alternatively, slap on the monster of legend template.

all things considered, that should probably be done anyway

VirOath
2010-06-12, 11:59 PM
Guys, just changing around the feats makes a world of difference. Putting in the Spring Attack line turns the Big T into a landshark supreme. Dig speed, remember? It's not being played right if it just acts like a beat stick and stands topside the whole fight.

And remember, spring attack sucks.

Elfin
2010-06-13, 12:00 AM
Yea...I always feel sorry for T, especially as it's a favorite of mine.

As was said on a recent Tarrasque thread, it should have such resistance to magic that melee combat is the only viable way to take it on, rather than the other way around.
Though really, even a decently optimized melee warrior could take Big T down pretty easily.

Beorn080
2010-06-13, 12:00 AM
Even better, Big T doesn't have a balance score, at least on the SRD. Guess what FIRST level spell requires balance checks, and guess who's movement speed normally is a mere 20' per round. With his dex, he gets a +3 to balance checks. So, while he is VERY unlikely to fall, at best Big T can move a mere 10' a round, which leave him still inside the first casting and requiring another balance check and a mere 10' of movement that round too.

Who knew a first lvl sorc can, if not defeat, at least get away from Big T.

Edit: Dig speed? The SRD has no dig speed listed, though I'd understand if another source gave it one.

nargbop
2010-06-13, 12:01 AM
That's why the tarrasque always has a Beholder mage in his belly wearing a ring of Acid Immunity, chewing slowly on the magical remains of the previously-digested.

Jack_Simth
2010-06-13, 12:05 AM
That's why PHB2 printed steadfast determination.

What?!? You didn't notice how it seems to benefit monsters more than players? :smallbiggrin:

Even if you don't dominate it, a heightened slow reduces it to 1 pathetic bite attack each round. Return to filing your nails while the fighters beat it into submission.

Alternatively, slap on the monster of legend template.
Heh, yes. Mr. T has a very poor feat selection. Zap all of those pesky "toughness" feats, replace one of them with Improved Toughness, and what do you know: He's got *more* hit points, and five loose feats. What could Mr. T do with the extra feats?

Maybe....
Toughness 1 -> Improved Toughness
Toughness 2 -> Steadfast Determination
Toughness 3 -> Martial Study (Shadow Jaunt)
Toughness 4 -> Martial Study (Shadow Stride)
Toughness 5 -> Martial Study (Shadow Blink)
Toughness 6 -> Martial Stance (Balance on the Sky)
?

Ravens_cry
2010-06-13, 12:06 AM
That's why the tarrasque always has a Beholder mage in his belly wearing a ring of Acid Immunity, chewing slowly on the magical remains of the previously-digested.
Where does a beholder mage, at least one that is an actual beholder and not some cheesed out humanoid PC, wear a facking, feking, ficking. . .well I guess we can skip the next two, ring?

Beorn080
2010-06-13, 12:07 AM
Where does a beholder mage, at least one that is an actual beholder and not some cheesed out humanoid PC, wear a facking, feking, ficking. . .well I guess we can skip the next two, ring?

Around an eyestalk? Really, it has room for, what is it, nine?

KillianHawkeye
2010-06-13, 12:08 AM
Maybe....
Toughness 1 -> Improved Toughness
Toughness 2 -> Steadfast Determination
Toughness 3 -> Martial Study (Shadow Jaunt)
Toughness 4 -> Martial Study (Shadow Stride)
Toughness 5 -> Martial Study (Shadow Blink)
Toughness 6 -> Martial Stance (Balance on the Sky)
?
Profit!

Fixed that for you. :smallwink::smallamused:

Runestar
2010-06-13, 12:16 AM
Guys, just changing around the feats makes a world of difference. Putting in the Spring Attack line turns the Big T into a landshark supreme. Dig speed, remember? It's not being played right if it just acts like a beat stick and stands topside the whole fight.

And remember, spring attack sucks.

You must mean pounce, since spring attack limits it to just 1 attack/round, and isn't really spectacular with its 20ft speed. At least there is the dire charge epic feat. Plus we can replace its save-booster feats with the epic equivalents. Spellcasting harrier might be useful, as well as rend (draconomicon).

The thing is, the way it is built, it is supposed to be able to stand in place and be a beat-stick/immovable blob.

I think the designers might be on to something with that 30-headed tarrasque variant. :smallamused:

Keld Denar
2010-06-13, 12:27 AM
Where does a beholder mage wear a ring?

According to Lords of Madness, the definative source for all things tenticley.



• One headband, hat, or phylactery on the body. A beholder can only wear a helmet specially designed to fit over the creature’s entire body.
• Three pairs of eye lenses or goggles over the central eye and up to two eyestalks (one pair per eye or eyestalk).
• Three amulets, brooches, medallions, necklaces, periapts, or scarabs on up to three eyestalks (one item per eyestalk).
• One belt worn about an eyestalk.
• One pair of bracers or bracelets on a pair of eyestalks.
• Up to three rings on up to three eyestalks (one ring per eyestalk).


So yea, you could fit a beholder inside of a tarrasque with a ring to give him acid immunity and have him devour/magic drain anything that the tarrasque might devour.

Ravens_cry
2010-06-13, 12:27 AM
Around an eyestalk? Really, it has room for, what is it, nine?
Does that count as a ring slot? I doubt a giants fingers count as a neck slot, though they might be as thick around as a humans neck.
EDIT: So it does. Huh.

Glyphic
2010-06-13, 12:39 AM
Hand of glory.

Bling Beholder!

Jack_Simth
2010-06-13, 01:00 AM
Fixed that for you. :smallwink::smallamused:
The question mark was mostly a matter of hinting that I was also possibly looking for alternate suggestions. Is there something scarier that can be quickly done, just swapping out the toughness feats? Or is a flying, teleporting Mr. T scary enough?

Keld Denar
2010-06-13, 01:03 AM
I think that the Big T should take 5 levels of Crinti Marauder. You know, cause I fully embrace the idea of a fully operational shadow pouncing *bamf* OMG ITS EATING MY ARM!!! OH THE HUMANITY! MAKE IT STOP!!!!! DEAR GODS!!!!!

Jack_Simth
2010-06-13, 01:08 AM
I think that the Big T should take 5 levels of Crinti Marauder. You know, cause I fully embrace the idea of a fully operational shadow pouncing *bamf* OMG ITS EATING MY ARM!!! OH THE HUMANITY! MAKE IT STOP!!!!! DEAR GODS!!!!!Yes, but that would, quite rightly, change Mr. T's CR (associated class levels) - merely changing the feats out makes him tougher, but without officially altering the CR.

Beorn080
2010-06-13, 01:14 AM
One wonders what a truly optimized feat list for the Big T would look like.

Thurbane
2010-06-13, 01:25 AM
Bit T pity the fool that makes him roll a Will save!

http://i47.tinypic.com/oji6h3.jpg

Raistlin1040
2010-06-13, 01:30 AM
Bit T pity the fool that makes him roll a Will save!

http://i47.tinypic.com/oji6h3.jpg
This is what I thought this thread would be about when I clicked the title. Mr. T doesn't need a Will Save though. He wears Bling of +9001 Resistance.

Eric Tolle
2010-06-13, 01:32 AM
Yea...I always feel sorry for T, especially as it's a favorite of mine.

As was said on a recent Tarrasque thread, it should have such resistance to magic that melee combat is the only viable way to take it on, rather than the other way around.

Wouldn't that require melee combat to be a viable way to take on anything at high level?

VirOath
2010-06-13, 02:54 AM
You must mean pounce, since spring attack limits it to just 1 attack/round, and isn't really spectacular with its 20ft speed. At least there is the dire charge epic feat. Plus we can replace its save-booster feats with the epic equivalents. Spellcasting harrier might be useful, as well as rend (draconomicon).

The thing is, the way it is built, it is supposed to be able to stand in place and be a beat-stick/immovable blob.

I think the designers might be on to something with that 30-headed tarrasque variant. :smallamused:

No, I meant spring attack, just for the really freaking basic, sucky version of what a smart Dm can pull with it. Since it has a Dig Speed and Tremor Sense ((IIRC)) it can make use of it's size and reach. 10ft up to the surface, swallow hole, 10 ft down. Dig speed can opt not to leave tunnels.

Rinse and repeat.

paddyfool
2010-06-13, 03:58 AM
No dig speed or tremor sense listed on the SRD. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/tarrasque.htm)

Kami2awa
2010-06-13, 04:11 AM
Yes, a Wiz-17 with a high Int score can keep Mr. T Dominated for a long, long time. Just hope Mr. T doesn't have a lucky streak at some point. He's not invulnerable.

But he is helluva tough!

ZeroNumerous
2010-06-13, 04:21 AM
No dig speed or tremor sense listed on the SRD. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/tarrasque.htm)

He might be working off Pathfinder's version.

KillianHawkeye
2010-06-13, 04:43 AM
He might be working off Pathfinder's version.

The Pathfinder version (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/tarrasque.html) also seems to lack anything beyond a standard movement speed (although it is faster).

Runestar
2010-06-13, 05:02 AM
What do you people think about the garngrath (MM5)? I have always viewed it as a rather viable alternative to the tarrasque which was designed to tackle some of its more problematic areas (namely action economy and lack of any interesting attack routines).

KillianHawkeye
2010-06-13, 05:18 AM
What do you people think about the garngrath (MM5)? I have always viewed it as a rather viable alternative to the tarrasque which was designed to tackle some of its more problematic areas (namely action economy and lack of any interesting attack routines).

Hmm... more offense, greater mobility, less defense, way less hp. Definitely an interesting alternative to Big T.

Too bad the picture makes me think of Godzilla wearing a bear suit. :smalleek::smallwink:

Runestar
2010-06-13, 05:29 AM
Hmm... more offense, greater mobility, less defense, way less hp. Definitely an interesting alternative to Big T.

Too bad the picture makes me think of Godzilla wearing a bear suit. :smalleek::smallwink:

Well for starters, you don't to contend with that irritating regeneration or waste xp on a wish. :smalltongue:

While it has only a single bite attack, it can get to attack the entire party (between swallowing charge, devastating roar and prismatic spray). I feel this improvement is particularly significant. Previously, the tarrasque would just PA for 15 and proceed to 1-shot the fighter (because it misses only on a 1) and deals more damage than a typical lv20 fighter has hp. Meanwhile, the rest of the party are unaffected. Not really fun or engaging for the players involved.

Conversely, the garngrath can deal modest damage to all the players in the party, thus giving them time to react while making them not feel left out of the fight. Granted, +33 attack isn't really very good, but at least it makes AC meaningful again.

Unfortunately, its will save is even lower than that of the tarrasque, nor is it immune to mental effects. But at least slow doesn't affect it much (as it can still charge and bite as a standard action). :smallbiggrin:

Maybe it is time to retire the big T. I think it has received enough ridicule to last another 5 editions. :smallwink:

KillianHawkeye
2010-06-13, 05:38 AM
Yes, but that still doesn't solve my Godzilla-in-a-bear-suit problem. :smallbiggrin:

Runestar
2010-06-13, 05:54 AM
Yes, but that still doesn't solve my Godzilla-in-a-bear-suit problem. :smallbiggrin:

Curse you, now I can't get that mental image out of my head either!!! :smallfurious:

KillianHawkeye
2010-06-13, 06:46 AM
Curse you, now I can't get that mental image out of my head either!!! :smallfurious:

I TOLD YOU!!! :smallbiggrin:

Stompy
2010-06-13, 09:05 AM
I just noticed that. Seriously, I knew it was pathetic (toughness, nuff said) but I never realized it was that bad. It even has a pathetic will save, it's as though you were meant to use dominate monster on it.

It also seems to lack Polymorph immunity, though they target the good saves.

Needs more steadfast determination.

My solution to Big T.

Play totemist
bind Big T to totem
fly
wild empathy it until you have a friend. Last time I checked he isn't immune to friendship. :smallsmile:

ScionoftheVoid
2010-06-13, 10:07 AM
Last time I checked he isn't immune to friendship. :smallsmile:

Friendship? I'm sure a good dose of Mindrape can cure that, along with lots of other bothersome things. Love, kindness, happiness...:smallsmile:I'm kidding, don't hate me. I'd have to cure the hate with Mindrape. Or cookies. Cookies solve anything Mindrape can't.

VirOath
2010-06-13, 10:21 AM
No dig speed or tremor sense listed on the SRD. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/tarrasque.htm)

Then I am either using an out of date version of him, or have gone completely mad. I'm gonna check, just gotta find the book >.>

And correct... Don't have a clue as to what I was smoking. Maybe the 3.0 MM, but I can't find it to check. But yeah, the big T is hella nerfed from what I remember (Carapace only 30%, DR only 15?!)

Wait... Weren't the dimensions 72' by 30' or something? Colossal Long? Yeah, I'm pretty sure I was smoking something.

Beorn080
2010-06-13, 11:21 AM
I still say its horrible vulnerability to GREASE is the worst offense it has. Its depressing, since it and dragons are supposed to be some of the iconic encounters of D&D.

Chen
2010-06-13, 12:18 PM
Wait... Weren't the dimensions 72' by 30' or something? Colossal Long? Yeah, I'm pretty sure I was smoking something.

Probably looking at 3.0 stuff. They had rectangular sizes for monsters. I think everything in 3.5 is a square now.

KillianHawkeye
2010-06-13, 01:06 PM
Maybe the 3.0 MM, but I can't find it to check.

Sorry, but thanks for playing.


Wait... Weren't the dimensions 72' by 30' or something? Colossal Long? Yeah, I'm pretty sure I was smoking something.

He's described as being 70 feet long and 50 feet tall (in both editions), but he takes up a square space regardless. Interestingly, he had a 40x40 space and 25 foot reach in 3.0, while he's been reduced to a 30x30 space and 20 foot reach in 3.5 (despite not actually being any smaller).

Elfin
2010-06-13, 11:33 PM
Wouldn't that require melee combat to be a viable way to take on anything at high level?

Hey, I never said it was actually possible. :smalltongue:

Vaynor
2010-06-13, 11:38 PM
The Pathfinder version (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/tarrasque.html) also seems to lack anything beyond a standard movement speed (although it is faster).

I never understood the whole "bigger moves more slowly" thing. Seems to me like it'd be able to move faster, giant lets and all. 20 ft. per round would be little tiny steps for a tarrasque.

Marriclay
2010-06-13, 11:44 PM
I never understood the whole "bigger moves more slowly" thing. Seems to me like it'd be able to move faster, giant lets and all. 20 ft. per round would be little tiny steps for a tarrasque.

mmm. If it's 70 ft. long, then maybe it can take a single step every 6 seconds, and that would be about 20 ft. course, this defies all kinds of logic, so, yes you're right

KillianHawkeye
2010-06-14, 01:13 AM
I never understood the whole "bigger moves more slowly" thing. Seems to me like it'd be able to move faster, giant lets and all. 20 ft. per round would be little tiny steps for a tarrasque.

It's actually the opposite, generally speaking. Gnomes and Halflings are slower than Humans and Elves, which are slower than Ogres and Hill Giants. The Tarrasque having a mere 20 foot move speed is just a ridiculous exception to the norm. Heck, even a purple worm has a speed of 20, and it's slithering across the ground! :smallannoyed::smallsigh:

Wonton
2010-06-14, 01:26 AM
I honestly don't think the Tarrasque would get a whole lot better if its move speed was changed to 200 ft. :smallannoyed:

P.S. You'd need to change Dash too.

Vaynor
2010-06-14, 01:29 AM
It's actually the opposite, generally speaking. Gnomes and Halflings are slower than Humans and Elves, which are slower than Ogres and Hill Giants. The Tarrasque having a mere 20 foot move speed is just a ridiculous exception to the norm. Heck, even a purple worm has a speed of 20, and it's slithering across the ground! :smallannoyed::smallsigh:

Well I didn't mean that it was that way for all, or even most monsters. Just that something so large (that has quite powerful limbs for movement, judging by the picture) could possibly move so slowly is ridiculous.

Actually, the halfling is a perfect example. The tarrasque can't out-walk a halfling that's simply strolling along, despite being more than 16 times as tall.

chiasaur11
2010-06-14, 01:29 AM
Curse you, now I can't get that mental image out of my head either!!! :smallfurious:

I have it worse.

I'm seeing a Godzilla sized fish in a bearsuit.

While delicious breakfast squids sweep the nation.

Thinker
2010-07-27, 08:13 AM
Well I didn't mean that it was that way for all, or even most monsters. Just that something so large (that has quite powerful limbs for movement, judging by the picture) could possibly move so slowly is ridiculous.

Actually, the halfling is a perfect example. The tarrasque can't out-walk a halfling that's simply strolling along, despite being more than 16 times as tall.

It's a shame that the 3.5e developers didn't hire biologists to help design monsters. I think that the Tarrasque should have movement similar to a crocodile or a monitor lizard sized up.

If they had wanted it to be a real challenge they should have given it a way to affect those it can't reach as well, but oh well.