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Marriclay
2010-06-13, 01:48 AM
Pretty much started over here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8690381#post8690381)

You read that title right. What I want with this thread is to ask the playground - What would you swap out the tarrasque's feat selection for? He has 17 feats, many of which are absolutely useless (He took toughness 6 times. Come on.) and quite frankly this makes him a wimp, relying only on his natural abilities.

So, what would you swap the tarrasque's feats out for? keep in mind here, he can get epic or monstrous feats, so don't limit yourself. we want to make him a challenging opponent, without actually changing his challenge rating!

let us assume the following

- The party has a charger barbarian Half-Ogre
- The Arcanaist is a Wizard/Archmage
- An unoptimized cleric, but he knows what he's doing in a battle
- A Factotum
- And a VoP Monk

They are all level 20. defeat them using only the tarrasque's new feats and skills. No adding levels or taking them away (For whatever reason).

Also, The Tarrasque gets 10 epic feats, 7 normal feats. May be useful to know. Thank you Volthawk

bobspldbckwrds
2010-06-13, 01:52 AM
yays!!! +1

Mystic Muse
2010-06-13, 01:57 AM
we want to make him a challenging opponent, without actually changing his challenge rating!

Not hard to do. You can give him a lot of stuff and keep him under CR 20.

Now, for this optimization challenge we need a bit of info. CR is completely dependant on the party makeup. For example, we can't give him flying against a group of VOP Monks. (Probably a bad example but my point stands)

Arbitrarity
2010-06-13, 01:59 AM
Get some Shape Soulmeld and Bind Chakra to get flight and perhaps a ranged attack. Optimally, you'd get Manticore Belt dual-bound to Totem and Waist Chakra, but that's not happening without multiclassing.
Say... Shape Soulmeld 3 times, Bonus Essentia and Epic Essentia, and Open Lesser Chakra (Shoulders). Shape Pegasus Cloak, and throw all the essentia you can into it. Consider Expanded Soulmeld Capacity for 50 ft fly speed. The other Soulmelds can be something situationally useful, not sure what atm. Perhaps take Open Heart Chakra and stuff a Shedu Crown there, for 24 rounds of Etherealness/day.

If you want to be stupid, Vow of Poverty would be nice :smallwink:

Salbazier
2010-06-13, 02:02 AM
Why not assume the standart party make up. You know, BSF, batman, healbot, skillmonkey, maybe with a waste of space or a bard

Mystic Muse
2010-06-13, 02:04 AM
Why not assume the standart party make up. You know, BSF, batman, healbot, skillmonkey, maybe with a waste of space or a bard

It's best do define these things before hand rather than leaving them out in the open. However, this will be the party makeup and the waste of space will be an unoptimized Truenamer. (you did say waste of space.)

PId6
2010-06-13, 02:04 AM
Improved Initiative -> Dire Charge
Martial Study (Wall of Blades)
Martial Study (Iron Heart Surge)
Martial Stance (Step of the Wind)
Martial Study (Searing Charge)
Adaptive Style - To recover as needed.

Arbitrarity
2010-06-13, 02:07 AM
Martial Study (Wall of Blades)
Martial Study (Iron Heart Surge)
Martial Stance (Step of the Wind)
Martial Study (Searing Charge)
Adaptive Style - To recover as needed.

Can't take adaptive style, requires a swordsage, warblade, or crusader level. A good stance would be nice...

Say... Martial Study(Foehammer), Martial Stance(Thicket of Blades), Martial Study(Wall of Blades), Martial Study(Iron Heart Surge), and Swift Recovery or something?

Oooh, mageslayer, as well.

That's 4-5 feats, and another 6-7 from Incarnum. We still have a few to go.

Marriclay
2010-06-13, 02:08 AM
It's best do define these things before hand rather than leaving them out in the open. However, this will be the party makeup and the waste of space will be an unoptimized Truenamer. (you did say waste of space.)

Yes, let us assume the following

- The party has a charger barbarian Half-Ogre
- The Arcanaist is a Wizard/Archmage
- An unoptimized cleric, but he knows what he's doing in a battle
- A Factotum
- And a Truenamer

They are all level 20. defeat them using only the tarrasque's new feats and skills. No adding levels or taking them away (For whatever reason).

PId6
2010-06-13, 02:09 AM
- And a Truenamer

They are all level 20.
Oh god we're all doomed.

Volthawk
2010-06-13, 02:10 AM
The Tarrasque gets 10 epic feats, 7 normal feats. May be useful.

Marriclay
2010-06-13, 02:12 AM
edited the OP to reflect the Assumptions

Knaight
2010-06-13, 02:14 AM
Anyone remember where the last thread was, Refeat the Tarrasque or something? I don't remember the title and am not finding it on search, but it has good advice, and in the end you have an incarnum abusing spellfire wielding Tarrasque that could take down a very large group of standard Tarrasques.

PId6
2010-06-13, 02:16 AM
Problem: The Truenamer can Gate in up to two Solars per round for no cost. I don't think the Terrasque can compete with that without massive cheese of some kind.

Arbitrarity
2010-06-13, 02:18 AM
Yes, let us assume the following

- The party has a charger barbarian Half-Ogre
- The Arcanaist is a Wizard/Archmage
- An unoptimized cleric, but he knows what he's doing in a battle
- A Factotum
- And a Truenamer

They are all level 20. defeat them using only the tarrasque's new feats and skills. No adding levels or taking them away (For whatever reason).

So, feats are...
Martial Study(Foehammer), Martial Stance(Thicket of Blades), Martial Study(Wall of Blades), Martial Study(Iron Heart Surge), Shape Soulmeld (Shedu Crown, Pegasus Cloak, ???), Bonus Essentia and Epic Essentia, and Open Lesser Chakra (Shoulders), Open Heart Chakra, Power Attack, Mage Slayer, Stand Still, Combat Reflexes, and 3 more.

Tarrasque turns Ethereal, sneaks up on wizard by flying. Appears as a free action, owns face (read: Uses liberal amounts of Full Attack with Power Attack. (average 105 damage BEFORE power attack. Add 6 damage/PA point, which is probably around 20, for 200+ damage. Wizard has... less than that). Note this only works on a mediocre wizard/archmage, not an uber one. Repeats on Factotum, then cleric.

Block Charger each round using Stand Still with reach. Any caster trying to cast in threatened area is owned by Mage Slayer, and they can't run, thanks to Stand Still and Thicket of Blades.

Marriclay
2010-06-13, 02:20 AM
Problem: The Truenamer can Gate in up to two Solars per round for no cost. I don't think the Terrasque can compete with that without massive cheese of some kind.

hmm. We want someone wh is useless at level 20 for that final spot. got any suggestions? gating in a pair of solars every round is way beyond waste of space

maybe a CW samurai...

PId6
2010-06-13, 02:25 AM
hmm. We want someone wh is useless at level 20 for that final spot. got any suggestions? gating in a pair of solars every round is way beyond waste of space

maybe a CW samurai...
Well, it might optimize Intimidate and scare the Terrasque to death... (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125885)

Mystic Muse
2010-06-13, 02:38 AM
Okay, a class that's genuinely useless no matter what campaign they're in and will do absolutely nothing against the Tarrasque plus worse than Truenamer.



.......Monk?:smalltongue:

Marriclay
2010-06-13, 02:41 AM
Okay, a class that's genuinely useless no matter what campaign they're in and will do absolutely nothing against the Tarrasque plus worse than Truenamer.



.......Monk?:smalltongue:

perfect :smallbiggrin:

Eldariel
2010-06-13, 07:38 AM
This ancient thread may be of interest (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87000). Here's the fabled image:
http://img158.imageshack.us/img158/241/spikedchaintarrasquesf0.png
But yeah, if you're reworking it entirely, give it:
- All its ranks in Spot (that'll mean it can see invisible things without trying and sometimes beat the "Pierce Illusions" DC)
- Dire Charge
- Steadfast Determination
- MS: Balance in the Sky/Dragon Wings/SS: Phoenix Cloak/SS: Manticore Belt (Manticore Belt comes free with a ranged attack too)
- SS: Phase Cloak

Arbitrarity
2010-06-13, 11:21 AM
Manticore belt requires a binding to Totem Chakra to grant a ranged attack, which big T is unable to get. Also, Pegasus wings give better fly manueverability, though I guess the flickery Etheralness of Phase Cloak's shoulder bind is better.

So then... SS: Manticore Belt(Fly Speed 40!), SS: Keeneye Lenses(True seeing!), SS: Phase Cloak (Go ethereal during all movement!), Bonus Essentia, Epic Essentia, Open Greater Chakra(Waist), open Lesser Chakra(Shoulders), Open Soul Chakra, Combat Reflexes, Spellcasting Harrier

Good options include: SS: Crystal Helm, Open Least Chakra(Crown) to give all attacks do Force damage!, SS: Sphinx Claws, Open Least Chakra(Hands), for Pounce, SS: Shedu Crown, Open Heart Chakra, for 24 rounds of Etherealness per day, return to material as a free action.

Eh, I disagree. Take Pegasus Cloak, Keeneye Lenses, Crystal Helm, Shedu Crown, the essentia feats, combat reflexes, spellcasting Harrier, that's 12 feats.
You now fly 40 ft (Average maneuverability), have True Seeing, can turn Ethereal as a standard action, and unethereal as a free action, and your attacks all are Force.

deuxhero
2010-06-13, 11:30 AM
You have a full caster alongside a VoP. Could prove iffy.

Cogidubnus
2010-06-13, 12:47 PM
This VoP fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=140428). No alignment restrictions, +20 to AC, Flight, +5 enchancement to all attack AND a limited array of special abilities, +5 resistance. It'd be untouchable.

Hague
2010-06-13, 01:04 PM
Here we go:

(Improved Unarmed Attack is a requirement here, but does it need it to get this attack?) && Power Attack->Thunderclap ( 5x48= 240 ft cone DC 46 vs Fort or Deafened, fail by 5 or more, knocked down)

Gape of the Serpent (Swallow whole works on creatures of it's own size but requires multiple grapple checks. Mmm! Colossal dragons are tasty!)

Multigrab -> Greater Multigrab (No penalty for snatching up multiples)

Multiattack -> Improved Multiattack

Endurance -> Steadfast Determination (+12 to Will saves as Con is used as a bonus instead of Wisdom )

Epic Will[Epic]

Toughness -> Pain Mastery (Good luck, as you continue to deal damage against this regenerating monster, it gains +2 Strength every 50 damage you deal to it for the duration of the encounter)

Improved Initiative-> Dire Charge[Epic]

Rapidstrike (For extra grabby swallowy action.)

Large and in Charge (If Improved Unarmed Strike isn't required for Thunderclap)

Runestar
2010-06-13, 06:50 PM
Don't bother too much with grappling, I am fairly sure every lv20 party and their grandma will have rings of freedom of movement, or can at least access said spell in a heartbeat.

Hague
2010-06-14, 12:01 AM
I'm not making it into a creature that's designed to beat a level 20 party. It's a creature designed to grab and eat things because that's what it does. Goes on a rampage, eats a buncha stuff and then goes beddy bye. The problem with the original was that it wasn't enough like a city-crushing monster. This thing reminds me of the Incredible Hulk right now. I wanted to give it Dust Cloud so that it could beat its tail on the ground and make a 240 ft wide cloud, but it needs 3 more dex to have it. Do those summoned Solar angels have Freedom of Movement? If not, they'll make tasty snacks. Needs a ranged weapon? Why? It can just throw stuff at them. Multigrab a pair of boulders and throw them. I came into this thing thinking that it should be optimized and still behave like the original described creature. Not to stuff it full of unthemely feats.

Also, what happens when a flying creature gets a knock-down effect? According to the weather rules from Rules Compendium, the closest thing I could find was being knocked down by wind and being forced to move 1d6x 10 ft. Which seems a little weak, considering the strength of this thing's Thunderclap.

Hell, I'd give this sucker an Antimagic field if I could.

Edit: Kinda wish I could give this guy class levels in Hulking Hurler.

mint
2010-06-14, 04:22 AM
This ancient thread may be of interest (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87000). Here's the fabled image:
http://img158.imageshack.us/img158/241/spikedchaintarrasquesf0.png
But yeah, if you're reworking it entirely, give it:
- All its ranks in Spot (that'll mean it can see invisible things without trying and sometimes beat the "Pierce Illusions" DC)
- Dire Charge
- Steadfast Determination
- MS: Balance in the Sky/Dragon Wings/SS: Phoenix Cloak/SS: Manticore Belt (Manticore Belt comes free with a ranged attack too)
- SS: Phase Cloak

I'm skurd :smalleek:

Marriclay
2010-06-14, 04:33 AM
I'm skurd :smalleek:

Meh too! Hold meh! :smalleek:

Morph Bark
2010-06-14, 05:42 AM
I don't suppose there is any way you could optimize the Tarrasque against a Wizard 20, Cleric 20, Druid 20, Archivist 20, Erudite 20 (with Spell-to-Power) and Psionic Artificer 20? :smallamused:

Jack_Simth
2010-06-14, 06:54 AM
I don't suppose there is any way you could optimize the Tarrasque against a Wizard 20, Cleric 20, Druid 20, Archivist 20, Erudite 20 (with Spell-to-Power) and Psionic Artificer 20? :smallamused:
Umm.... well, if you start replacing Magical Beast Hit dice with class levels, probably. But we're starting with a Core CR 20 beasty, and you're having it face a party of six ECL 20 characters ... and all of those being tier 1 or better. So not AND still have it be CR 20, no.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-06-14, 07:26 AM
There are two very simple things that I do to 'fix' Big T:

Make him Divine Rank 0 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineRanksAndPowers.htm), most of what it grants is redundant, namely it grants immunity to mind-affecting effects and gives him a significantly greater speed. I'd put it at +0 to +1 CR for this particular creature.

Make him a Half-Fiend (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/halfFiend.htm), using this variant (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060630a) to give him some additional class skills such as Hide and Move Silently. Adjust his skill ranks and feats according to his new abilities.

From there I'd give him two cross-class ranks in Knowledge: Local to take Magic in the Blood (http://www.realmshelps.org/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Magic_in_the_Blood) so all of his Half-Fiend spell-like abilities are usable 3/day. Give him Quicken Spell-Like Ability for anything he'd use in combat, along with Maximize and/or Empower Spell-Like Ability: Horrid Wilting. Improved Spell Resistance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#improvedSpellResistance) a few times will make it extremely difficult to land that Wish and finish him off.

That gives him a 140 ft. land speed, 140 ft. fly speed with average maneuverability, good enough Hide, Move Silently, Spot, and Listen skills to determine the encounter distance and maybe even get a surprise round, and a caster level 48 Quickened Blasphemy 3/day. Plus he's quite a bit smarter and he actually gets to be evil. What was a big tough heavy-hitter is now a seriously difficult boss fight which requires research and preparation* ahead of time just to survive the encounter.

*Greater Spell Immunity: Blasphemy

Marriclay
2010-06-14, 08:00 AM
that is a very effective, very unique way of handling things

Biffoniacus Furiou, I applaud you.

Eldariel
2010-06-14, 11:10 AM
There are two very simple things that I do to 'fix' Big T:

Make him Divine Rank 0 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineRanksAndPowers.htm), most of what it grants is redundant, namely it grants immunity to mind-affecting effects and gives him a significantly greater speed. I'd put it at +0 to +1 CR for this particular creature.

Make him a Half-Fiend (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/halfFiend.htm), using this variant (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060630a) to give him some additional class skills such as Hide and Move Silently. Adjust his skill ranks and feats according to his new abilities.

From there I'd give him two cross-class ranks in Knowledge: Local to take Magic in the Blood (http://www.realmshelps.org/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Magic_in_the_Blood) so all of his Half-Fiend spell-like abilities are usable 3/day. Give him Quicken Spell-Like Ability for anything he'd use in combat, along with Maximize and/or Empower Spell-Like Ability: Horrid Wilting. Improved Spell Resistance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#improvedSpellResistance) a few times will make it extremely difficult to land that Wish and finish him off.

That gives him a 140 ft. land speed, 140 ft. fly speed with average maneuverability, good enough Hide, Move Silently, Spot, and Listen skills to determine the encounter distance and maybe even get a surprise round, and a caster level 48 Quickened Blasphemy 3/day. Plus he's quite a bit smarter and he actually gets to be evil. What was a big tough heavy-hitter is now a seriously difficult boss fight which requires research and preparation* ahead of time just to survive the encounter.

*Greater Spell Immunity: Blasphemy

That works, but you still need to rework his feats; mind-affecting immunity doesn't protect him from Plane Shift, Magic Jar or even something as simple as Glitterdust. As such, it would be prudent to go with Steadfast Determination. Though flight and magic solves quite a bit.

That said, now it isn't a big hungry beast that hits really hard but an evil arcane monstrosity; whether that sits with one's vision of the thing is, of course, another matter entirely.

Draz74
2010-06-14, 12:51 PM
I don't suppose there is any way you could optimize the Tarrasque against a Wizard 20, Cleric 20, Druid 20, Archivist 20, Erudite 20 (with Spell-to-Power) and Psionic Artificer 20? :smallamused:

Sure. One word: Leadership.

PId6
2010-06-14, 12:52 PM
Sure. One word: Leadership.
Matched by six words:

Leadership Leadership Leadership Leadership Leadership Leadership

Marriclay
2010-06-14, 12:54 PM
Sure. One word: Leadership.

so epic leadership with each different cohort taking leadership again down the chain? now that's nasty

Draz74
2010-06-14, 12:58 PM
Matched by six words:

Leadership Leadership Leadership Leadership Leadership Leadership

So on one hand, we have:
6 Level 20 Tier 1 characters
6 Level 18 Tier 1 cohorts
No epic spellcasting

And on the other side, we have:
A level 46 Tier 1 character
(Oh yeah, and an optimized Tarrasque too ... not that it really matters ...)

I'm betting on the latter myself.

Of course both sides can keep abusing Leadership cheese for many generations of cohorts. I'm thinking the Tarrasque's cohort could be an StP Erudite/Thrallherd, for example. But none of this changes the essential fact that one side has epic spellcasting and the other side doesn't.

Would be an interesting fight to watch while eating popcorn, though.

Eldariel
2010-06-14, 01:03 PM
Would be an interesting fight to watch while eating popcorn, though.

If you consider "All your spells bounce off me harmlessly, I use Doomsday.spell™ and you all die because Epic Spellcasting penetrates all your defenses and I'm kicking the living out of your Prismatic Wyrm-gates" interesting, sure... Though Gating in Dragons with Epic Spellcasting would even the odds.

PId6
2010-06-14, 01:05 PM
No epic spellcasting
Hmm... Inspire Greatness + Chaos Shuffle? :smallamused:

Draz74
2010-06-14, 01:40 PM
If you consider "All your spells bounce off me harmlessly, I use Doomsday.spell™ and you all die because Epic Spellcasting penetrates all your defenses and I'm kicking the living out of your Prismatic Wyrm-gates" interesting, sure...
Why yes, when the victims of such a spell are abusive-optimized Level 20 Tier 1 builds, then I do consider that interesting. :smallwink:


Though Gating in Dragons with Epic Spellcasting would even the odds.
Yeah, I'm still betting on the Level 46 guy to win (after all, he can Gate in epic allies too), but now it essentially just comes down to who can argue with the DM better. Which does tend to make for good popcorn-eating.

Hague
2010-06-14, 01:54 PM
My imagining is that the Tarrasque is created on every Material Plane. However, when it is finally killed, it becomes a petitioner or its soul is sold to a Duke of Hell or a Demon Prince and then gets remade into this titanic half-fiend monstrosity. I can just imagine the half-celestial version, redeemed with two epic Tarrasques fighting eachother on some cube in Acheron.

Eldariel
2010-06-14, 02:26 PM
My imagining is that the Tarrasque is created on every Material Plane. However, when it is finally killed, it becomes a petitioner or its soul is sold to a Duke of Hell or a Demon Prince and then gets remade into this titanic half-fiend monstrosity. I can just imagine the half-celestial version, redeemed with two epic Tarrasques fighting eachother on some cube in Acheron.

With epic Wizards, deities and other beings with real power paying for seats on the other end of the permanent, warded Scrying sensor (first cable!)?

Runestar
2010-06-14, 07:09 PM
Note that the tarrasque technically cannot qualify for the half-fiend template, because it only has 3 int, while the template requires 4 int.:smallbiggrin:

Eldariel
2010-06-14, 07:13 PM
Note that the tarrasque technically cannot qualify for the half-fiend template, because it only has 3 int, while the template requires 4 int.:smallbiggrin:

It can take Epic Intelligence as a feat though!

Runestar
2010-06-15, 05:21 AM
This makes me wonder - is it possible to have viable high-cr melee foes which don't have to rely on magic to be effective in combat?

The MM has about 5 foes designed to challenge high-lv parties (~lv20). The pit fiend, balor, titan, tarrasque and dragons.

Of these, the tarrasque is the only purely-melee monster, but it is also generally considered as a joke because of the ease with which it can be taken down. Its lack of magical support means that it is easily at the mercy of whatever the party tosses its way.

The pit fiend, balor and titan have some melee ability, but they also have high lv SLAs at their disposal. Considering how reliant melee is on the full-attack action for its damage output, it almost always seems better to just let loose an implosion or fire storm. This means they are usually better off blasting with their SLAs than attacking, making them more like large-sized casters with more hp.

While dragons admitably have formidable melee prowess, they are also spellcasters, and frequently rely on their magic to augment their combat capabilities. So it is more of a gish than a pure fighter.

This makes me wonder - is higher lv combat doomed to be a spell-slingfest, or is there some way to actually make melee useful again from a monster npc's perspective? :smallannoyed:

Eldan
2010-06-15, 06:02 AM
Quite frankly, I can't think of anything.


Which makes me wonder, though: can you make the Tarrasque viable while still keeping the same feel? Not just by changing feats, but also abilities. Can you make it a pure ground-based engine of melee destruction, no flying, no ranged attacks, no spells, and still make it a threat?

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-06-15, 06:06 AM
This makes me wonder - is it possible to have viable high-cr melee foes which don't have to rely on magic to be effective in combat?

*snip*

This makes me wonder - is higher lv combat doomed to be a spell-slingfest, or is there some way to actually make melee useful again from a monster npc's perspective? :smallannoyed:

Let's see what they've given us already:

The Eldritch Giant Confessor (MM3, CR 20) is a giant with some magical abilities who's been given quite a few Cleric levels. Conversely, the Geriviar (MM3, CR 19) is another giant with potent melee capabilities, solid defenses, and some powerful ranged attacks, with a few choice spell-like abilities. According to its round by round tactics, it actually prefers to stay at a distance and use ranged attacks to defeat opponents, which is spell-like abilities are designed to do. If encountered in an enclosed space such as a dungeon (large enough to accommodate a huge creature) it could easily take down one character after another with its 8-slams full attack, though it would be susceptible to Solid Fog and similar effects. Its abilities make it an ideal hit-and-run attacker, designed to repeatedly ambush and harass a high level party for days at a time while they attempt to complete whatever other tasks are set before them. Not exactly a melee opponent, but not reliant on magic either. The Greater Ssvaklor (MM3, CR 20) is probably exactly what you're looking for: a powerful melee combatant, poisonous breath weapon, poisonous attacks, and a couple of low-level spell-like abilities that probably won't even be used during combat. The Psionic version even gets Freedom of Movement. Its only offensive capabilities are its melee attacks and breath weapon, though I'm not sure how great a threat it would be to a level 20 party of optimized characters.

You could also modify existing monsters and use terrain to pose a threat to higher level characters without resorting to giving it spellcasting. For example, take a 12-headed Hydra, give it the elite array, and give it Snatch, Improved Snatch, and Multisnatch. Put it in a dark underwater tunnel that the PCs need to swim through to reach their goal. It waits until they're all swimming past within reach, and AoOs the first few with 12 bites each, then takes a 12 bite surprise round. It can grapple each character with only one head, and the rest of the creature is not considered grappled. The rest of its heads could attack a snatched character from outside the grapple, and it ends up being an extremely difficult encounter even for well prepared characters. Not exactly a 20th-level challenge, but you could potentially increase its number of heads, following the progression already laid out (+1 HD/CR per head, +2 Str per +2 heads) to create a higher-level and even epic-level version. If you do make an epic version, I'd use the old 3.0 model of making its body completely immune to everything, so that the only way to defeat it is to sever/kill all its heads, and probably make it an Abomination (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm). It would definitely have to be bigger than normal, probably at least colossal.

Eldan
2010-06-15, 06:19 AM
Hmm. How about an Abomination-Tarrasque? There is already significant overlap in abilities, but the immunities would come in handy.

Runestar
2010-06-15, 06:29 AM
I am guessing terrain is the major factor. Maybe make it so the PCs can't hover above the tarrasque and snipe at it with impunity, but are forced to stand toe to toe with it in melee. But is that enough?

There is also the issue of any gargantuan-or-smaller foe being vulnerable to forcecage. Twin foes can easily be cut down to size with maze (halving their strength). Brutes with poor will saves and reliant on full-attacks are easily neutered with slow (heightened if need be), even if they get immunities to mind-affecting effects. In short, there are so many ways to counter melee.

Or perhaps it simply means they shouldn't be used alone, but need some form of caster support?

Eldan
2010-06-15, 06:40 AM
That's more a problem with Forcecage than with the monsters, though. That spell is just borked. It should include more ways of escaping, breaking the barrier or escape artist.

Lapak
2010-06-15, 10:17 AM
Which makes me wonder, though: can you make the Tarrasque viable while still keeping the same feel? Not just by changing feats, but also abilities. Can you make it a pure ground-based engine of melee destruction, no flying, no ranged attacks, no spells, and still make it a threat?Hrm. Without a ranged attack at all, I don't think so, short of making it so ridiculously large that its natural reach outranges most spells. But a flavor-friendly ranged attack that springs to mind is allowing it to tear up pieces of terrain and hurl them, essentially attacking as a siege engine (but with a respectable damage level). Combine that with unlimited-range True Seeing as a natural ability and you've started to limit the float-out-of-reach-and-snipe tactics. Then you just have to deal with its other weaknesses - removing all avenues that attack its ability scores is certainly an essential first step.

Hague
2010-06-15, 12:27 PM
Erm... make it so the Tarrasque fights people in a magic-dead zone? Functionally an anti-magic field that disables everyone's supernatural abilities. That's about the only way to really make anything not a spell-fest. It's functionally identical to dropping an EMP on a modern military force. No radio, no tracking missiles, no satellite recon, etc. Magic is the tech of D&D, there always has to be a way to use it properly.

2xMachina
2010-06-15, 12:28 PM
Can't kill it either.

Crap, we can't cast Wish to keep it dead.

PId6
2010-06-15, 12:34 PM
Can't kill it either.

Crap, we can't cast Wish to keep it dead.
Initiate of Mystra to the rescue?

Wonton
2010-06-15, 12:39 PM
Instead give it the Astral Dreadnought's (Manual of the Planes) 150-ft Antimagic Cone.

Telonius
2010-06-15, 12:45 PM
I'm trying to remember a very old thread ... it didn't re-feat the Tarrasque so much as added a bunch of templates to it. It ended up immune to just about everything but a level 20 Hellfire Warlock.

Volthawk
2010-06-15, 12:47 PM
I'm trying to remember a very old thread ... it didn't re-feat the Tarrasque so much as added a bunch of templates to it. It ended up immune to just about everything but a level 20 Hellfire Warlock.

This maybe?



This ancient thread may be of interest (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87000). Here's the fabled image:
http://img158.imageshack.us/img158/241/spikedchaintarrasquesf0.png
But yeah, if you're reworking it entirely, give it:
- All its ranks in Spot (that'll mean it can see invisible things without trying and sometimes beat the "Pierce Illusions" DC)
- Dire Charge
- Steadfast Determination
- MS: Balance in the Sky/Dragon Wings/SS: Phoenix Cloak/SS: Manticore Belt (Manticore Belt comes free with a ranged attack too)
- SS: Phase Cloak

Hague
2010-06-15, 01:46 PM
Hah, hadn't thought about that. I guess you'd have to KO it and then find some way to signal to someone outside the dead zone to Wish it dead. The Wish works because it doesn't actually affect the Tarrasque's body but rather prevents its soul from automatically returning to its body (at least that's a way I'd rule it :P) When you KO the damn thing with attacks, you actually kill it, but it just keeps coming back to life even though you're dealing non-lethal damage.

Another way to look at it is to say it's only half-dead and Miracle Max would have something to say about that. So if you can affect the half-dead part of the soul and force it to drag the half-alive part out of the Material Plane, it stays dead... rather, it becomes all-dead.

Telonius
2010-06-15, 03:24 PM
This maybe?

No, it's not that. Had a bunch of templates - I think it was around the time somebody (was it Fax?) was starting to stack Paragon and Pseudonatural onto That Damn Crab. Ah well, nevermind, /thread derail.

Draz74
2010-06-15, 04:38 PM
Perhaps the Ikea Tarrasque, the forerunner to the "Emerald Legion"?

Runestar
2010-06-15, 07:08 PM
There is also the issue of fun. I can make the tarrasque immune to just about everything the party can throw at it, but that would be very frustrating for the players. What is the wizard supposed to do in an AMF? Heck, even the fighter will be just as screwed (if not more, since the wizard still has his lead hat as a last resort) when his magic armour/weapons stop working and he is summarily grappled/swallowed whole.

Yes, you read it right. AMF screws over the fighters more than it does the casters. :smallamused:

Marriclay
2010-06-15, 07:24 PM
Yes, you read it right. AMF screws over the fighters more than it does the casters. :smallamused:

This.

This alone definitively proves it to us.

Fighter very much fits in Tier 5

Wonton
2010-06-15, 09:30 PM
Yes, you read it right. AMF screws over the fighters more than it does the casters. :smallamused:

This. x2. Which is hilarious.

BlueWizard
2010-06-16, 12:04 AM
Really?

You need to optimize it? :smalleek:

2xMachina
2010-06-16, 05:38 AM
Really?

You need to optimize it? :smalleek:

Base tarrasque? Probably. If you're optimized, it's not that hard to kill.

Eldan
2010-06-16, 06:02 AM
Not even unoptimized, really.
It's speed is 20 ft. That says it all. You can just kite it to eternity, as long as you can get a ranged attack dealing more than 55 damage per shot. You only have to survive it's one attack every minute. AC 35 is trivial to hit. And that's without the wizard included.
You can grease it. You can drain or damage it's 3 points of intelligence. You can put walls of force around it.

There's a hundred easy ways to take it down.

Kaiyanwang
2010-06-16, 06:07 AM
Not even unoptimized, really.
It's speed is 20 ft.

Remember that he can rush once a minute.

Eldan
2010-06-16, 06:16 AM
Yeah, I edited that in. Doesn't make him much more difficult, though. He gets one attack per minute, then. That gives the players ample time to prepare themselves.

Kaiyanwang
2010-06-16, 06:36 AM
Yeah, I edited that in. Doesn't make him much more difficult, though. He gets one attack per minute, then. That gives the players ample time to prepare themselves.

I think that that one attack should be used to grab the most annoying PC at reach, maybe after a jump.

But yeah - tarrasque is not the ZOMFGMonster it seems at first glance. I used it with the Half-Fiend template to make a giant Oni from it (Kusatte Iru).


BTW, is fun obtain LotFR oni missing in OAdv by template. Other example: Half-Fiend protean scourge --> Wakeru no Oni

Runestar
2010-06-16, 08:21 AM
I think we can assume that at this time, the party is pretty much immune to fear (heroes' feast) and grapple attempts (freedom of movement from spell/ring). So don't bother with the tarrasque's frightful presence and swallow whole capabilities. You have to rely on damage alone.

I realise one problem with it is that it is so 1-sided. Because it so clearly dominates melee combat, all the more players are not going to want to fight it on its terms and stand toe-to-toe with it in combat, because it will 1-shot them (on a full attack and with +15PA, it averages 203 damage before crits). This is before bringing in outside stuff such as rend or rapidstrike.

They will want to take advantage of its more notable weaknesses (poor will save, inability to fly, lack of ranged attacks). Or if the fighter does enter melee, it will be after the tarrasque has been neutered (eg: heightened slow, greater bestow curse reducing it to 1 str). Stuff which the tarrasque has no defense against.

And I don't blame the players for this. I call it playing smart. You know fighting the tarrasque in melee will spell doom, so why would you do it? :smallmad:

Eldariel
2010-06-16, 12:06 PM
I think we can assume that at this time, the party is pretty much immune to fear (heroes' feast) and grapple attempts (freedom of movement from spell/ring). So don't bother with the tarrasque's frightful presence and swallow whole capabilities. You have to rely on damage alone.

I realise one problem with it is that it is so 1-sided. Because it so clearly dominates melee combat, all the more players are not going to want to fight it on its terms and stand toe-to-toe with it in combat, because it will 1-shot them (on a full attack and with +15PA, it averages 203 damage before crits). This is before bringing in outside stuff such as rend or rapidstrike.

They will want to take advantage of its more notable weaknesses (poor will save, inability to fly, lack of ranged attacks). Or if the fighter does enter melee, it will be after the tarrasque has been neutered (eg: heightened slow, greater bestow curse reducing it to 1 str). Stuff which the tarrasque has no defense against.

And I don't blame the players for this. I call it playing smart. You know fighting the tarrasque in melee will spell doom, so why would you do it? :smallmad:

I disagree. A Tarrasque can be beaten in melee by a reasonably optimized single-classed Fighter 20 let alone something stronger. Sure, you can't trip or dungeoncrash it without shenanigans, but that's what you have your charging/stand-up/lockdown abilities for.

Its most powerful assets are Power Attack and large number of natural weapons; even without going to stuff like magic that's just cheating here, there's Elusive Target and Greater Fortifications Armor which alone cut out most of the bite in its attack suite. Toss him a Starmantle Cloak with at least +13 Reflex-save alongside Pride-domain and mayhap some source of DR and you are pretty set to trade blows with it (well, as long as you didn't omit Freedom of Movement).


Of course, you're hugely item-dependent to beat it, but frankly, Fighter 20 is little more than a sum of his items. It just so happens that items tend to be strong enough to beat Big T in melee. And if a Wizard helps the Fighter with some spells like Glitterdust, Displacement, etc. it's gonna be a cakewalk for the Fighter. Let alone a party. Dealing 55 damage per hit to 35 AC in melee is no trick whatsoever on 20.