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Totally Guy
2010-06-13, 12:58 PM
So your guy has died, and can't be brought back. You bring in a new character at level 1 irrespective of the power levels of everyone else.

I'm not saying it's a good idea or anything like that but I'd like to hear tales of times it's happened in practice. Whether it was as bad as can be imagined or whether it was cool and edgy.

Ever seen this sort of thing happen?

Swordgleam
2010-06-13, 01:29 PM
The closest I got was in a 1st edition game where my mage died, so my cleric got brought back in at something like average party level +/- 1d2. I ended up a bit lower than most of the party, but I knew what I was doing much better than I had before so my cleric still ended up more powerful than my mage.

VirOath
2010-06-13, 01:33 PM
No, but if it happened to me I would just roll a bard and play the cheerleader, annoy the heck out of the DM with vocal buffs. Roleplayed out.

If the DM wants to stomp on the effectiveness fun, I can find my fun elsewhere.

Scribble
2010-06-13, 01:36 PM
If that happened to me I think I would make a Commoner with a Wisdom of 0 and put no ranks in Spot or Listen, and then he would wear a red shirt all the time...

Alaris
2010-06-13, 01:59 PM
Honestly common in a lot of games. I've been lucky enough that the DMs who run for us do not. We usually come in one level lower than the lowest level party member.

Regardless, starting at level 1 is pretty painful, but common amongst a lot of DMs, and people shouldn't doom their characters because of it. Even if they try to die, they'll be level 1 again, so what's the point?

Lord Vukodlak
2010-06-13, 02:04 PM
Honestly common in a lot of games. I've been lucky enough that the DMs who run for us do not. We usually come in one level lower than the lowest level party member.

Regardless, starting at level 1 is pretty painful, but common amongst a lot of DMs, and people shouldn't doom their characters because of it. Even if they try to die, they'll be level 1 again, so what's the point?

A few of those DMs think that is the actual rules and don't know about starting PC's above 1st level.

Thiyr
2010-06-13, 02:14 PM
Speaking as a (admittledly new) DM that's actually planning on this pending PC death, I'll give my reasoning. First: E6 game, meaning power difference is going to be made up quicker. Second: If they didn't do that, they'd not get a bonus from early levels I'm tossing at them which was designed to be useful throughout the character's life. Third: Setting. In a setting based off the Exile/Avernum series, where the new PCs are regular people tossed into an exile that's pretty much untamed wilds from a nice, clean settled area, odds are against them having more than a class level. It's an easy way to get more people into the game, it's keeping everyone on the same level in terms of effort put into the character (meaning no character dying WBL shenanigans), and for what I hope to be a continued setting, it means that people can bring back old characters or make new ones as desired and know how that's going to work out. Everyone is already aware, as well, which helps. We'll see how it works out though.

Coidzor
2010-06-13, 02:18 PM
Oh man. Anything beyond, say, 4th level and you're screwed. Unless you're so piddly that the monsters don't go after your plinkity as you're such a minor threat. Bard's probably one of the few things that'd have a chance of surviving long enough to get back somewhere near the party.

Shpadoinkle
2010-06-13, 02:23 PM
It's a problem, and as the game progresses it only gets worse. Coming back in a level lower, fine. It kinda sucks, but you'll catch up after a couple sessions. Once the average party level reaches 4 or 5, most characters will have a hard time contributing to a party-level-appropriate encounter in a meaningful way at level 1

dextercorvia
2010-06-13, 02:33 PM
It wasn't as big of a deal in 2e. By the time your party had enough xp to level up once, you were up to their previous level, at least early on. That was the only reason it was possible to dual class as a human. But xp scales different in 3.x. Unless the DM uses the rule that each character earns xp as though the entire party was at their level, I don't see you ever coming close to catching up.

ShadowsGrnEyes
2010-06-13, 02:54 PM
never dealt with it. . . our rule is usually you come back one level lower then you died at.

Sliver
2010-06-13, 03:03 PM
Did anyone try to make the calculations?

Using the encounter calculator (srd) I chose a 3 level 10 PCs and a level 1 PC facing CR10 encounters. Until level 5, every encounter will level up the level 1 PC. He will get to level 6 before the others are halfway towards level 11 if they all started at zero points towards new level. When they reach level 7, the others just leveled up to 11. This whole mess takes 14 encounters, slightly above the average amount (assumed by the DMG) that should take a same ECL party to level up once.

While it's a lot of useless time for the low level player and highly depends on how many encounters per session they play, it doesn't sound that bad after I looked at the numbers.

dextercorvia
2010-06-13, 03:05 PM
The problem is most dm's don't bother to calculate xp differently for one character than another. Also, if you are going strictly by the DMG, a character can only level up once per adventure.

Sliver
2010-06-13, 03:09 PM
I'm pretty sure it's once per an encounter. But I can't find the rule at the moment (never actually seen it so...) could you quote or post the page it's on?

VirOath
2010-06-13, 03:10 PM
Did anyone try to make the calculations?

Using the encounter calculator (srd) I chose a 3 level 10 PCs and a level 1 PC facing CR10 encounters. Until level 5, every encounter will level up the level 1 PC. He will get to level 6 before the others are halfway towards level 11 if they all started at zero points towards new level. When they reach level 7, the others just leveled up to 11. This whole mess takes 14 encounters, slightly above the average amount (assumed by the DMG) that should take a same ECL party to level up once.

While it's a lot of useless time for the low level player and highly depends on how many encounters per session they play, it doesn't sound that bad after I looked at the numbers.

You are also assuming surviving the encounters, and many DMs use the rule that you have to do more than just hide from the monster to get experience. Not that a level 1 character could effectively hide from a CR10 anything. Not to mention you are squishy enough that a single stray AoE will be a Save Or Die Anyways.

Prime32
2010-06-13, 03:15 PM
There's also the problem that you can't gain experience from anything more than 8 levels above you.

Oracle_Hunter
2010-06-13, 03:16 PM
Impossible above LV 4 in a WotC version of D&D - but de rigeur for TSR D&D.

Remember that your power did not really increase much via leveling in 1st & 2nd edition; levels were nice, but it really took a gap of 5 or more levels before a character would be better off staying home. Interesting, asymmetrically leveled parties were incredibly common in these editions - largely due to the variable XP-per-level amounts between classes and the nastiness of Level Draining monsters.

Each level in a WotC D&D game is just too valuable to even allow a character to lag 1 level, much less start him off at LV 1.

Sliver
2010-06-13, 03:16 PM
You are also assuming surviving the encounters, and many DMs use the rule that you have to do more than just hide from the monster to get experience. Not that a level 1 character could effectively hide from a CR10 anything. Not to mention you are squishy enough that a single stray AoE will be a Save Or Die Anyways.

You could still contribute on a fight. If you are a caster, you can use party wands.

But you should remember that either your DM is messing with you (because the DMG says that only those who contribute to a fight gain XP, you will never gain combat XP and will be stuck at level 1, thus never helping and the party asks why are you hanging with them as no one took leadership) or he is ignoring that "must contribute" clause anyway.

I think that if you are making a new character for a high level party and your DM forces you to be at level 1, he thinks that it is unfair for the other characters to have worked hard for their XP and survived.

dextercorvia
2010-06-13, 03:17 PM
I'm pretty sure it's once per an encounter. But I can't find the rule at the moment (never actually seen it so...) could you quote or post the page it's on?

Nope, leveling isn't in the SRD. It might be in the PHB actually, since I have read it, and I don't own a DMG.

The quote is something like "regardless of how much experience .... a character can gain no more than one level...." My memory fails me.

Saph
2010-06-13, 03:18 PM
I actually think it would be kind of fun playing a level 1 in a party of level 10s. As Sliver points out, you'd level every encounter. Most meteoric character growth ever. Obviously you'd have to be pretty careful to survive, but it would be possible if the other PCs helped you out.

Sliver
2010-06-13, 03:25 PM
Nope, leveling isn't in the SRD. It might be in the PHB actually, since I have read it, and I don't own a DMG.

The quote is something like "regardless of how much experience .... a character can gain no more than one level...." My memory fails me.

I found the rule, and I'm unconvinced. They don't use the word session, but adventure for that rule. Most of the time, adventure is a long time. If you read a bit later, you find it saying:


If, for some extraordinary reason, a character’s XP reward from a single adventure would be enough to advance two or more levels at once, he or she instead advances one level and gains just enough XP to be 1 XP short of the next level.

If your DM gives you XP at the end of session, you are screwed. If it's every time you gain XP, it's OK.

If you are playing ECL1 with ECL10 party against CR10 opponents and your DM doesn't give you XP for surviving the combat (which is a challenge by itself) you will never contribute in any mechanical sense. You are no more than a follower with a voice.

dextercorvia
2010-06-13, 03:30 PM
Based on your quote, I think their advice is to award XP at the end of an adventure. Rich makes fun of this in an early OOTS comic.

Sure your DM might award it at the end of a session, or even each encounter, but that isn't a guarantee.

nargbop
2010-06-13, 03:31 PM
Coming in at more than three or four levels lower than everyone else means that you will fail against obstacles they succeed at, and will be more likely to die again. Ask your DM if you can come in at a more comparable level, and RP a good reason for you to join (one of the survivor's brothers answering a long-lost request for aid, etc).
That being said, your climb up the XP/level ladder will be quicker than everyone else. Be careful, and you might be fine.

Sliver
2010-06-13, 03:39 PM
Based on your quote, I think their advice is to award XP at the end of an adventure. Rich makes fun of this in an early OOTS comic.

Sure your DM might award it at the end of a session, or even each encounter, but that isn't a guarantee.

Does the DMG tell you that new players should be considerably lower level than the others?

If your DM forces you to start at level 1 in a high level game and doesn't give you XP because you didn't contribute or if he does, he gives it once an adventure (usually at end of quests) so you level once every few sessions then I would think your DM just wants you to take a hint and go away. It's a lot of punishment for a player who's only crime is getting a character killed or joining late.

dextercorvia
2010-06-13, 03:45 PM
Does the DMG tell you that new players should be considerably lower level than the others?

If your DM forces you to start at level 1 in a high level game and doesn't give you XP because you didn't contribute or if he does, he gives it once an adventure (usually at end of quests) so you level once every few sessions then I would think your DM just wants you to take a hint and go away. It's a lot of punishment for a player who's only crime is getting a character killed or joining late.

No, I think the level one restart is bollocks. I'm simply refuting the level up every encounter which might make it palatable. I say have them start one level behind, as if they were raised.

Sliver
2010-06-13, 03:53 PM
No, I think the level one restart is bollocks. I'm simply refuting the level up every encounter which might make it palatable. I say have them start one level behind, as if they were raised.

There are many ways on gaining XP. If your DM uses the every encounter one, or every session but you have only one combat encounter per session, then you will gain levels fairly quickly compared to the others. It still sucks and you are screwed by the DM, but it's not as horrible as once per adventure with you wasting thousands of XP because you can't level up anymore or gaining no combat XP because you can't help but still forced to adventure with much higher level characters.

Stompy
2010-06-13, 03:56 PM
So your guy has died, and can't be brought back. You bring in a new character at level 1 irrespective of the power levels of everyone else.

I'm not saying it's a good idea or anything like that but I'd like to hear tales of times it's happened in practice. Whether it was as bad as can be imagined or whether it was cool and edgy.

Ever seen this sort of thing happen?

This happened to me 7 times actually. 5/7 times resulted in death, with 1 resulting in unplayability, and 1 that was never played.

If I can recall correctly... It was a first edition game. This system does not work EVER, when you start back at level 1. This is because,


Our DM scaled to the party of on average level 4, meaning if I got hit, I died.
I didn't have money for henchmen.
I couldn't roll a good character to save my life.
I couldn't get money to level (1000 gp if I remember right), because our party assassin was taking it all, because he was the main person responsible for killing all the monsters. He was also ~3 levels higher than anyone else.
I missed the session with the 1 HD dragon and it's ginormous loot.
The DM made my only decent character who I decided to roleplay out go nuts and attack the party.
I missed half the play making characters.
The encounters outside are not scaled.
Most of my characters were awesome at disabling traps (because I am creative), although you can't get the experience if you aren't a rogue.
Death from massive damage rules in 1st ed make me cry.
So does being ambushed by swamp wolves, and never getting a turn in that combat.
22% to sneak behind the ogre? Sure, not like I love this character anyway, and how else am I going to get experience?
Was made to play a 3 DEX 9 WIS human cleric with a 20% divine spell failure chance.
My fighter rolled a d10 for his first hit die and rolled a 2.


Never playing 1st ed. with the "start back at level 1" rules ever again.

molten_dragon
2010-06-13, 04:09 PM
I've got a pretty bad story regarding this.

My wife and I had joined a group in our hometown and had been playing with them for a year or so. The group was okay, and the gaming was fairly fun, but it was pretty obvious from the outset that the DM was a bit of a control freak. When the party was around level 8, my character died, and since I wasn't enjoying the character much I asked the DM if I could simply create a new one. She said it was fine, I should just use the same character creation rules she had originally given us.

So I created a new level 8 character. Real life then proceeded to get in the way, and my wife and I missed a couple sessions before I could bring the new character in. When we finally got back with the group for the next session, I handed my new character to the DM to check out. After looking over it for a couple seconds, she told me there must have been a misunderstanding, since she had meant that I should create my new character at 1st level. Apparently she didn't believe in giving characters experience that they hadn't earned (she actually told me this).

Well, being level 1 in a level 8 party obviously wasn't going to fly, so I told her I'd just get raised and keep playing my old character (the party had already discussed it and if everyone chipped in we had just enough money to afford it). She then proceeded to tell me that in the two sessions I had missed, enough time had passed in-game that it would take a resurrection spell to bring my old character back. The party couldn't afford this, and didn't know of any casters high enough level to cast it anyway. I tried to reason with her, but she was firm that my only two choices were to make a new character at level 1 or sit out until the party was able to get me resurrected.

Needless to say, that was the last time that my wife and I ever played with that particular DM.

Sliver
2010-06-13, 04:22 PM
Apparently she didn't believe in giving characters experience that they hadn't earned (she actually told me this).

Did you try mentioning that you earned the XP as much as your character, and that it penalizes you more than your dead character?

okpokalypse
2010-06-13, 04:27 PM
L1 Coming in w/ 3 L9's.

1st Encounter is a CR10 Creature

L1 Char is Now at 2,700 XP and L2.
L9 PCs gained about 1,000 XP each. Still L9.

Next Encounter is another CR10 Creature

L2 Char is at 5,400 XP and is L3.
L9's are still L9.

Next is a group of 4 CR8 Creatures.
L3 Char is now at 10,800 XP and dings to L5.
The L9's get 1,800 XP and are about 1/2 way to L10.

Fighting three CR9 Creatures as the 4th Encounter...
L5 Char is now at 15,300 XP and is L6.
The L9's got just over 2,000 XP and are about 2,500 XP short of L10.

Next Encounter is a doozy. 1 CR9, 2 CR7, 2 CR6 and 6 CR4.
L6 Char is now at about 20K XP and is sniffing L7.
The L9s are a hair short of L10.

Going by these #s, the party will be within 1 level when the higher-up PCs hit L12. It kinda sucks that the low level PC just has to hang back and be useless for a few sessions, but the XP comes in huge chunks...

molten_dragon
2010-06-13, 04:28 PM
Did you try mentioning that you earned the XP as much as your character, and that it penalizes you more than your dead character?

I spent about 20 minutes trying to reason with her about it and she wasn't willing to back down. Actually, if I'm being completely honest, it was about 18 minutes trying to reason with her and 2 minutes explaining my views on her flaws as a DM in exacting detail (and fairly colorful language) before walking out.

Greenish
2010-06-13, 04:32 PM
Going by these #s, the party will be within 1 level when the higher-up PCs hit L12. It kinda sucks that the low level PC just has to hang back and be useless for a few sessions, but the XP comes in huge chunks...If the DM awards Exp per encounter instead of per session.

Even then, being forced to hang back and not participate in fights for even a session serves no purpose.

dextercorvia
2010-06-13, 04:35 PM
I've been the lowest level member of a party at least once where the DM just gave everyone X thousand xp at the end of an adventure, or at least episode of an adventure.

Stompy
2010-06-13, 04:36 PM
No, I think the level one restart is bollocks. I'm simply refuting the level up every encounter which might make it palatable. I say have them start one level behind, as if they were raised.

Agreed. There's very little point in starting out at level 1, except for "realism's sake." But in reality, why would a level 10-11 group want a level 1 un-fantastic greenhorn adventurer with them? What utility does that serve?

If the XP gained is meteoric as Saph pointed out, then why can't you skip the boring seven battles trying to save your behind to get to level 6-7, when you could just start there?

Honestly, the liability of a level 1 character at that point is too much. One stray fireball means you're toast, and melee is completely out of the picture for you until you level drastically. I also sure hope you don't get jumped by ninja anytime soon. :smallsmile:

Coidzor
2010-06-13, 04:38 PM
I think that if you are making a new character for a high level party and your DM forces you to be at level 1, he thinks that it is unfair for the other characters to have worked hard for their XP and survived.

When really it's more likely she doesn't want you playing and is being rude our of a desire to appear to not be rude rather than being direct about it or is incredibly short-sighted in such a way as to cast aspersions upon their rationality and DMing abilities.

Edit: Gah... wonky internet connections and being ninja'd by the guy I was quoting...x.x

Sliver
2010-06-13, 04:41 PM
I know :smallwink:


If your DM forces you to start at level 1 in a high level game and doesn't give you XP because you didn't contribute or if he does, he gives it once an adventure (usually at end of quests) so you level once every few sessions then I would think your DM just wants you to take a hint and go away. It's a lot of punishment for a player who's only crime is getting a character killed or joining late.

Coidzor
2010-06-13, 04:43 PM
And... ninja'd in realizing I'd been ninja'd....x.x

PId6
2010-06-13, 04:45 PM
Honestly, this is just a terrible idea. I can't imagine a 1st level character surviving more than two or three combats in a party of 6th or higher characters against anything mildly intelligent. If the DM enforced this houserule, I'd either walk or optimize to the point that I'd never die.

Stompy
2010-06-13, 04:53 PM
Use Abrupt Jaunt (or worse?).

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-06-13, 04:53 PM
Yea, if I was in a 10+ level game, and forced to restart from 1st level, I'd probably say something like this:

"Okay, I'm going to start as a Kobold Paladin. Now then, with all the associated bonuses to my Knowledge (Religion) check it should be trivial to be able to know about Pazuzu... here, read up on him." Hands the book the appropriate sourcebook "Now then, for my wish, I ask for a Candle of Invocation..."

Sliver
2010-06-13, 05:00 PM
I'd probably say something like this:

Really? Is this what you would actually do? You would rather do that than just say the game isn't for you and leave?

Sometimes I'm surprised by how many people are suggesting that if you can't agree or compromise with the DM and you think you are right, you should ruin their game. More than one person suggesting that is too much.

PId6
2010-06-13, 05:03 PM
Use Abrupt Jaunt (or worse?).
Abuse Alter Self/Polymorph to make AC untouchable, stock up on immediate action "No" buttons like Abrupt Jaunt/Wings of Cover/Greater Mirror Image/Celerity, abuse Craft Contingent Spell, use every Persistable buff known to man, etc. Or, if I'm feeling particularly nice, I might build some kind of cleric with Revenance + Revivfy and keep the other party members from dying as well.

nightwyrm
2010-06-13, 05:47 PM
Going by these #s, the party will be within 1 level when the higher-up PCs hit L12. It kinda sucks that the low level PC just has to hang back and be useless for a few sessions, but the XP comes in huge chunks...

That kinda reminds me of Diablo2 on battlenet where some 1st lv char would just stand 2 screens away from some boss fight and leech the XP.

What's the point of making a player start a char at lv 1 and spends the next several sessions not really able to contribute to fights until he's leeched enough XP to be no more than a few levels behind the rest of the party.

PId6
2010-06-13, 05:51 PM
That kinda reminds me of Diablo2 on battlenet where some 1st lv char would just stand 2 screens away from some boss fight and leech the XP.
Ah, those were the days. :smallcool:

mucat
2010-06-13, 05:55 PM
While this is not what I would choose to do as a DM, I agree with Saph that it could be a fun challenge as a player...as long as you know the DM is good at his/her job.

If they're doing this will the full attention of making your character irrelevant, and/or if their encounters tend to be the straightforward "do what your class is good at until the bad guys lose" type, then you'll be bored. But with a DM who runs encounters creatively and leaves opportunity to make full use of the environment, there is always something important to do that doesn't depend too greatly on level.

While the battle rages around you, there are things on fire that need to be doused. Things that aren't on fire that should be. Panicked civilians to be led to safety. Downed allies in desperate need of healing potions. Vital malfunctioning machinery to jury-rig. Avalanches to trigger. And maybe some low-level opponents who, instead of attacking directly, are doing these same sorts of things for the enemy, and must be stopped.

As an example invented off the top of my head:


While your high-level allies are trading blows and spells with their high-level opponents,a catapult stone smashes in the side of a nearby signal tower and kills its operator. Without the message he was sending, your allies on the next ridge are about to walk into a deadly ambush.

To reach the tower, you must race across broken terrain without attracting the notice of the the numerous things less squishy than you. This is within your skills, even at low level, since the enemies' attention is focused on your friends.

Reaching the tower base, you find that the catapult hit has collapsed the interior stairs, so you begin climbing the half-shattered stonework. It's within your abilities, but barely...until you realize that one of your enemies is trying to do exactly the same thing, to seize the tower and signal their own allies. The other climber is about the same power level as you -- which is why he/she is also not slugging it out with the big guns -- and the next few rounds are a deadly cat and mouse game, while you and your counterpart race one another to the top, each trying to knock the other off or sabotage their climb, while both striving not to be noticed of the numerous figures who could kill either of you with a hand gesture. You might find yourself in a temporary alliance with the other climber as a teetering piece of stonework threatens to send you both to your deaths, only to resume trying to kill each other as soon as you have jointly solved that problem.

Perhaps you both make it to the top, and you face a last desperate grappling match on precarious footing to see who will seize the signal flags and who will plummet to their doom.

Anyone want to say this player isn't having any fun, or doesn't deserve a share of the experience from this battle?

Kurald Galain
2010-06-13, 06:04 PM
It's happened to me and I found it rather annoying. Power imbalance is not that big a deal to me, but if my character is literally inferior in every single way to everybody else in the group, that's a bit much.

Pluto
2010-06-13, 06:10 PM
I've played quite a few characters >4 levels below the rest of the group. Most of the them were okay - it can be fun playing Jimmy Olsen - but I'd rather make the choice to be a step down from the rest of the party than be told I had to.
And like Oracle Hunter said, WotC editions don't play nice with level imbalances.

dr.cello
2010-06-13, 07:23 PM
This happened to me once. The DM was kind of terrible in most respects, so perhaps this isn't the only reason things were so bad. But basically it went like this:

I made my first-level rogue to join the fifth or sixth level party. The problem is mostly this: any monster that is fun for a fifth level character one-hit KO's a little six-hitpoint rogue. I generally stayed back shooting with my little bow, of course, but it made it hard to do anything besides run and hide during combat.

Oh, and the DM houseruled experience so that low-level characters ended up getting less experience for high-level encounters, so catching up was impossible.

That campaign didn't last very long.

The problem is you end up feeling about as useful as one of the faceless goblin minions in a battle: only of any real use in numbers. It forces you into a boring supporting role.

Trog
2010-06-13, 07:36 PM
Ever seen this sort of thing happen?
Yup. I was the victim of that sort of game once long, long ago (1st Edition). Since the other PCs were so much higher than I was I died over and over. In my opinion it's a dumb way to run your game. The person worked just as hard as the rest to play a character of Nth level - they just got unlucky (usually).

If you want to penalize them for death make them come in at one level lower than the rest of the party. They still get penalized but remain able to deal with the challenges of the group and meaningfully contribute to it.

okpokalypse
2010-06-13, 10:59 PM
If the DM awards Exp per encounter instead of per session.

Even then, being forced to hang back and not participate in fights for even a session serves no purpose.

Agreed, and I would never support it as a DM, nor as a player would I be pleased... However, I'm approaching 40 years old and I know that, were my group to dissolve, that'd be it for my D&D most likely, so I'd be willing to make certain concessions to keep it going...

Ingus
2010-06-14, 03:35 AM
I usually sail above level 15, nowadays, so it is not faseable for my parties to start back at level 1.

Even a level 5 party is not likely to be a good place for a level 1 char. Just to say one, a single spellcaster level 6 is a normal and maybe even easy encounter for the party. The evil spellcaster casts a fireball to weaken all the party members. He goes with a poor roll too: 12 points damage.
All the party members are unscratched or less inconvenienced, one is save or die in round 1 already.

Level dip could only end bad if the DM doesn't build the encounters exactly to grant survavibility to the one character at level 1. But in this case, other party members will probably face unnatural, fake and unchallenging encounters.
In this case, better pump up the last coming PC.

This never happened to me, but I had to face a couple of time to have my PC 2 levels lower than the party average and 3 levels lower than the top.
Any encounter was a survival challenge and not very pleasant.

GoodbyeSoberDay
2010-06-14, 03:47 AM
The first time I ever played D&D I was joining in on a campaign that was currently at sea; the group was level 5-ish. The only available sentient creature not being played by a character was a bound and gagged goblin the party paladin was trying to convert to goodness. Just a normal, 1hd goblin, bound and gagged.

The first session I played, a guest DM (don't ask...) makes a high level caster and apparatus of kwalish tag team up against the group/boat, basically making a fiat TPK. In a moment of desperation the party turned to my character for help, and I had to meekly note that my character was still bound and gagged. We all drowned.

That said, playing that goblin for one session got my foot in the door for the next campaign, and I wasn't exactly invested enough in the bugger to mind the weird TPK, and we knew never to let that kid DM, so it all worked out.

Grumman
2010-06-14, 04:12 AM
Even a level 5 party is not likely to be a good place for a level 1 char.
Personally, I'd say a level 1 party isn't a good place for a level 1 character. You really need to start at least at levels 2-4, just so that you don't instagib people through no fault of their own.

Ingus
2010-06-14, 04:51 AM
Personally, I'd say a level 1 party isn't a good place for a level 1 character. You really need to start at least at levels 2-4, just so that you don't instagib people through no fault of their own.

This is not necessarily so.
For example, when I start a 1 level game, I fix this houseruling that PCs below level 3 are immune to criticals, 'cause is not players' fault if the DM is lucky with dices.
Then, I prefer to send them single monsters, to give 'em the action economy.
'Till level 3, I never send enemies that can potentially kill someone: early levels are funny and training levels and if you're careful all your PCs goes 3rd. Then, progressively, the danger increase. :smallsmile:

gbprime
2010-06-14, 11:52 AM
Hey, if they die and cannot come back, just bring in a new character 1 level lower than the one that died. Same mechanic as the level loss from Raise dead. Slap on the wealth-by-level table, make up a reason to be there, and have him/her wander in at some appropriate point.

The thing to watch with that solution is party equipment. If your campaign is so deadly that people are doing this all the time, they could wind up seriously OVER-equipped. Of course, at least they'd stop dying at some point, you'd hope. :smalltongue:

Umael
2010-06-14, 01:01 PM
Unfortunately, this is one of the areas where the D&D level-based system fails, and quite a bit more so than other games.

In a game like Champions, if your 250-pt superhero actually dies, you can create another 250-pt superhero and keep on going, even if the original had 100 experience points and your new superhero doesn't. (Granted, even a fraction of that 100 exp would be nice, but still...)

In L5R, lose a Rank 5 PC? Well, your new Rank 1 PC can still contribute.

If your 4th-Generation Vampire finally meets Final Death, you can still start over at 13th-Gen- what a minute, how often do you guys Diablerize?!?

...but with D&D, the choices are a lot more limited.

- New PC, same level: continunity might suffer, but power levels are still good.
- New PC, a little less powerful: a bit better continunity, a bit less desirable power level
- Old PC, Raised: if you can - dead is an inconvinience, you lost a level, go on
- Old PC, Ressurrected: if you can - good option
- New PC, start over: even continunity suffers if the rest of the PCs are 15th and you are 1st. Why are you even in the area?

However, I see two possibilities.

- start out as a monster, add templates. Still can be "1st-level".
- give immunities that go away as you level. Someone mentioned immunity to criticals until 3rd level. What about giving DR and MR for free that go away as the PC levels? Allowing automatic stability if knocked into the negatives? Simply granting monster indifference ("He looks harmless, go for the big guy with spikes on the shoulders of his armor.") and trap luck ("Looks like everyone gets targetted by the poison dart traps - except the new guy."). Nothing that can be abused ("I throw myself into the maw of the dragon!" "Well, the dragon is a little surprised, but a free meal is a free meal..."), but just something to give the PC the survivability for a few levels.

Coidzor
2010-06-14, 03:19 PM
Personally, I'd say a level 1 party isn't a good place for a level 1 character. You really need to start at least at levels 2-4, just so that you don't instagib people through no fault of their own.

This reminds me, I need to see what a houserule to make starting HP add the con score itself to it would to do play.

Murphy80
2010-06-14, 03:59 PM
Back in 1st edition me and 2 friends joined a group as 1st level characters to their 7th level characters. We just stood around and let the higher level characters do everything and get all the good stuff (they could kill us without thinking, so it was suicide to argue). In the end, we made a red dragon mad and she breathed fire on us. The funny part was, all the low level characters (2nd level if I recall) made our saves...and were killed anyway by the 1/2 damage. All the higher level characters who would have lived if they had saved...failed. We never played with them again.

A few years ago there was an effort in Seattle to create a system/campaign where you can create a character and play it in various games with different DM's (like Pathfinder Society (I can't recall the DnD versionor what the Seattle system was called)). The rules specified all characters start at 1st level. So at conventions you would have a mix of 1st-5th level characters doing adventures. Again, all a 1st level could do was hang back and try to be helpful (and not die in the process). BORING.

A level 1 character in a group with 4+ levels difference = BAD IDEA.

AvatarZero
2010-06-14, 04:45 PM
I was thinking about two things here.

Regardless of your table-side explanation for why a character should start at level 1, assuming that's what you're doing, what's the in-game rationale? Are there no other high-level characters in the entire setting? What about all those town guards who are conveniently always that little bit tougher than the party's thieving git?

Here's an idea for a less experienced character joining the group but still being useful (that only works if they were going to play a melee character): let them play a warrior the same level as the party, and switch out one level of warrior for one level of something else full BAB every time they have a chance to train (or at some other convenient interval). Provides a more convenient mechanic to back up the story of "we have a newbie hero in the party". Good idea/bad idea?

OK, the second thing was: are there any magic items that would work well for a low level character? The sort of thing that a high level party would have access to, that would make a low level character more useful. Wands, Staves, items that grant a set number of HP instead of increasing your CON modifier, that sort of thing. Any suggestions?

Raendyn
2010-06-14, 04:48 PM
L1 Coming in w/ 3 L9's.

1st Encounter is a CR10 Creature

L1 Char is Now at 2,700 XP and L2.
L9 PCs gained about 1,000 XP each. Still L9.



you are not alloweed to earn experience if CR > (your lvl +8)

thats a single example for the " do not reward your players for being lucky" rule the DMG has.

OR else every1 would start with a mage ,use a fox cuning pot(or even a drug to add DC via alchemical bonus), buy a suggestion(or dominate person scroll), then go to the head fighter of the militia ( in a big city he should be around lvl 12), ask him in a fight( you can arange things so that he wears no cloack or w/e), call him a mother****.

now you have an encounter CR12 & he has the lowest will save arround here..

Suggestion! : wouldn't you think it's a great idea to go for a road trip on foot?

congratz you are lvl 6!!!:smallcool:

GoodbyeSoberDay
2010-06-14, 05:07 PM
you are not alloweed to earn experience if CR > (your lvl +8)Not exactly. The DMG just states that you shouldn't use the experience table if CR > ECL+8 (since something has gone wrong) and instead assign ad hoc experience.

Sliver
2010-06-14, 05:31 PM
you are not alloweed to earn experience if CR > (your lvl +8)

More importantly is that you aren't gaining XP unless you are meaningfully contributing to the combat. Sounds like you are stuck at level 1 unless your DM gives you rewards for RP or something.

Hague
2010-06-14, 05:58 PM
Why not average the party levels to determine overall experience? Having a level one character on-board can benefit the party by granting them more experience (because of a lower average level for the party) but only if the player can contribute (Aid another action, ahoy!) Then the party has a vested interest in protecting the lower level character with whatever they can. The lower level will also allow the party to backtrack with the difficulty, maybe to take a day off and go orc-slaying "for old time's sake." Just to "break in the new guy." and so on.

The reasoning behind this is that the the extra experience comes from the challenge of keeping the weaker player alive, not necessarily from the enemies themselves. You can make something like this interesting.

Personally, I'd rather just give the players some bonus XP that they can apply for current and new characters based on extra-curricular activities such as: Design me a character with specific listed progression. That way, I can introduce this character as an NPC and then if the PC dies, the player that made the NPC can pick up as that NPC instead of having to roll another character. The bonus XP is incentive for the player to design new characters for when old ones die. Should the player decide to resurrect their old character, the old character can live on as an NPC or the current PC can return to being an NPC. Eventually, you can create a whole cavalcade of interesting characters, picking and choosing different adventures at different times. The book-keeping with time becomes a problem, but there are ways to metagame that away. Granted, this can turn into a method/improv acting course, but if your players are willing, then thumbs-up!

Toric
2010-06-14, 08:47 PM
I have only this (http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1fg69_farador-dd-tom-et-ses-chums_creation) to contribute to the conversation at hand.

tiercel
2010-06-15, 04:53 AM
I'd tend to think that if "coming back in at level 1" was the campaign rule, parties of any significant level would try a *lot harder* to raise their fallen comrades from the dead, even if it meant a pilgrimage/quest to find an NPC able and willing to cast true resurrection (when nothing else would do). After all, that sounds easier than babysitting a level 1 newb up to some useful level (and trying to figure out the arcana of the world in which you live -- what does your new squire have to do in combat in order to be eligible for an XP reward and yet not wind up as a fine red mist when engaging in a combat at your level?).

It would also mean the DM is being *rather* a southbound end of a northbound donkey if he is deliberately including significant amounts of "unrecoverable death" in a game where he recognizes his players will want / work to raise their fallen friends.

Ingus
2010-06-15, 05:47 AM
The lower level will also allow the party to backtrack with the difficulty, maybe to take a day off and go orc-slaying "for old time's sake." Just to "break in the new guy." and so on.



This seems to much like pumpin' up friends in MMORPG. We can do better than this, don't you think so? :smallamused:



I have only this to contribute to the conversation at hand.



This is what it may happen if you mismatch too much. So be warned everyone :smallbiggrin:

Raendyn
2010-06-15, 05:54 AM
More importantly is that you aren't gaining XP unless you are meaningfully contributing to the combat. Sounds like you are stuck at level 1 unless your DM gives you rewards for RP or something.

that's not so hard to do.. if divine caster use a scroll of magic vestment, if arcane summon Monster something, or if fighter/thiefuse your bow.highly inteligent enemies will never attack you after you have attacked once cause they understand that you are useless, low inteligent enemies are mostly attacking their closest or the guy that has just hurt them( you can manage not to be either of them), midly inteligent.. here you can check if your dm want to kick you out of the group(since soem1 already mentioned that the lvl 1-thing maybe hiding a message behind it)

The other problem heere is that , let's say your dmsends some lower than party CR encounters, or many small creatured to reach you CR but he uses the (exp per creature rule), your party will kill half of those things before your turn comes, everything killed b4 your initiative does not count for you!

Same goes for really strange ways your party might kill something.(Some DM's don't grant exp to the rogue standing next to the cleric who just killed with a turn undead a bunch of zombies)since you are unable to uderstand how he did that, you are not now more experienced in killing zombies or w/e...